Nick Lowe and the battle with Spider-Man fans

[@clonegeek3317]

I don't get Marvel's arrogance because kids aren't reading Marvel comics, they are reading Dogman and Manga

[@BerzerkDC]

It's too bad they didn't run miles as spider boy or another identity of his own and play it for kids

[@LigerFan]

I could be wrong but Marvel seems to be stuck in the “if the kids don’t want what we’re giving them in our comics it’s their fault.” Way of thinking they’ve been in since at least Kelly Sue DeConnik was wrecking Carol Danvers and blaming fans and readers when what she was doing wasn’t selling. A company isn’t behooven to give its readers and fans what they want. But they’d better give those people something they’re okay with or they’re gonna pay when it comes to sales. In the case of Spider-Man people stuck around for several storylines, but now Marvel isn’t only not giving fans and readers what they want in the form of getting Pete & Mj back together, they’re trying to give fans and readers something they hate in the form of putting MJ in a relationship they hate with a character they hate in a book with a writer they hate. Or in the case of that writer killing off Ms. Marvel for a day or two in the pages of Spider-Man fans and readers just not giving a single $#!+.

[@ShadowWingTronix]

Modern writers don't write these comics with kids in mind. They're trying to prove to non-readers that they don't make comics for kids by doing stories that are "mature" and not "kiddie crap". So they just make crap, lose the next generation in the jump between preschool (mostly Disney Junior shows) and the age group they're after (college age), and wonder why their sales are so low.

[@Elementa2006]

Along with YA comics and Webtoon/webcomic comics. Seriously, last year I went to a Waterstones (big book store chain in the UK) in Reading and the new trade volume of that LGBTQ romance Webtoon comic Heartstopper came out and I actually saw actual school kids get more excited for its release than any of the new DC or Marvel trades.

[@jonathanl-j4i]

@@LigerFan great takes. I have said much the same myself. My personal comment is that it is the creative team’s job to convince the fans, not the fans’ job to be convinced.

[@geoffcole8994]

Nick Lowe was also the one that came up with the Freaky Friday storyline in the original Ultimate Spider-Man series, that strongly implied that Wolverine while in Peter’s body, tried to have sex with a teenage MJ.

[@markusfury7420]

When Nightcrawler died, it was in an X book. Cap died in a Cap book. If anything, off her in an Avengers book, not Spider-Man.

[@samhighvoltage]

It was such a choice 🙄

[@thetempleton6622]

Or maybe captain marvel, heck if they wanted to kill her in a spiderman book how about the spiderman that actually has a connection with her?

[@markusfury7420]

@@thetempleton6622 that's an option as well, but they wanted to shoehorn her into a Spider-Man title. Bad enough they brought her back with the powers that they hated so much that they didn't give them to her in the show. It's like the show and the books completely lack direction. You don't have this issue with manga!

[@trunks546]

No skin in the game here, but one thing: historically, Peter is a loser in most aspects in life, save one and that’s MJ. She’s the woman of his dreams. You can lose a lot in life and be an everyday guy and still have an amazing chick, and to most id say that’s winning in the long run. Anyone?

[@mayotango1317]

No, in the Romita Sr years, Peter became a handsome guy.

[@trunks546]

@@mayotango1317 you can be handsome and still not be winning in life.

[@michawawrzkiewiczmicha7073]

Nick Lowe is walking proof that pride is the greatest of the seven deadly sins.

[@AL-ws5yi]

I want to offer a contrast to Lowe’s panel. Hiro Mashima creator of Fairy Tail when asked why he brought back another character back to the series when it was obvious that he was only meant to be temporary. He said because people liked him. He was also asked if the couples in the series would ever get together he said maybe. He was also asked if he would ever bring back another series he made, he said if enough people ask for it. This guy basically loves and works for his fans. The reason he bought back Fairy Tail even though it ended was because so many people asked for it.

[@adamfrey4920]

Has there ever been a serious "Superman and Lois don't work as a married couple" objecion? They briefly broke up the marriage for the Nu52, and oh boy did the mea cupla come four years later.

[@rickrivers2021]

Unfortunetly yes. Tom Breevort has that objection, and he has the same opinion on Spider-Man being married

[@adamfrey4920]

@@rickrivers2021 Has anyone who isn't Tom Breevort made that objection? (At this point, Clark and Lois were married from 1996 to 2011, and restored from 2016 to the present, so that's almost 25 years of the marriage working. And Earth-2 Superman affirmatively married Lois in the 70s.)

[@retronerds6884]

@@adamfrey4920Joe quesda when he was at dc

[@BoudewijnPiet]

They should have never taken the marriage away, Spider-man before Omd was relatable to teens young adults and grown ups. With the removal of the marriage the book became stagnent and rehashed. Plus with Omd they practically said young adults and grown ups we don't need them anymore. We the fans want to enjoy our comic. But it becomes harder and harder.

[@AL-ws5yi]

Exactly!

[@HarlanEllisonlives]

Haven't bought a Spideman comic since one more day until Ultimate Spideman. You will not get change if you keep buying the regular title. JUST STOP BUYING!!! Your collection doesn't mean a damm if your not enjoying it....

[@AL-ws5yi]

Yeah, same.

[@clonegeek3317]

Lowe is the only editor at the big two that people blame a lot

[@SogekingFirebirdStar]

Nick Lowe just needs to step down or leave Marvel entirely.

[@andresanguianozuniga6798]

The Kamala Khan End was one of the WORST thing i have ever seen in fiction IN GENERAL. They tried to sell it like if it was a big thing, being the most random thing and then it was undone like nothing.

[@ricardofredes9527]

I can understand being bombarded over and over regarding the marriage thing, but at some point they just have to realize it's time to give in ASM is not exactly doing well with the readerbase. People are clearly not liking Wells's run and most of the things it set up (like Jackpot) To act snappy at the people that do have the receipts to give these questions just further alienates what little good will you have

[@32FONickweiser]

Great video Perch. Spider-Man is my all time favorite fictional character and i don't read his current comics. It sucks but I'm not going to continue to pay for something I don't enjoy. Nick Lowe and Marvel are too committed to not giving fans what they want and the only way they are gonna feel the hurt is when even the most die hard collectors bow out which I hope they do. There are great comics out there currently, Amazing Spider-Man is not one of them.

[@stevehnatko1050]

It's funny, when I read One More Day I stupidly thought to myself, this is going to make for a wild story in a few years. All these years later, I can't believe it is such an issue for Marvel to change that. Also, of all their characters, Peter is the one that growth should've been important for. Instead they feared it.

[@MadThanos79]

Yeah, that guy is definitely a graduate of the Quesada School for Arrogant Editors. Pretty much what destroyed the industry in the long term.

[@misternegative4918]

You’re obviously not supposed to just do what all of the fans ask you to do, but you are supposed to give them things they enjoy. I don’t enjoy seeing Peter Parker being a loser adult, who is no longer relatable to anyone with “responsibility”. I think this is a key thing. Sure MJ and Peter should be together, but the biggest issue for me is that Peter is just not a good or interesting character with how they’ve handled him in the last 20 years. I read after One More Day on Marvel Unlimited and I had lost all interest in the book after that point. I’ve tried other runs and none of them have worked for me. He doesnt feel like the same character and the only supporting cast character he still has is Aunt May and she’s the one supporting cast member I think makes complete sense to not really have anymore.

[@bradfrederick1135]

Right now my personal perception as a consumer is that DC is pulling out all the stops to make their publishing brand recover from the lull. Maximum effort. Marvel however is staying the course. No adjustments, no counterstrike.

[@ComicsOdyssey]

“These people aren’t important, they are tiny little insects”… is not hate? Seems like splitting hairs if it isn’t. You don’t take that attitude towards people you love. I’ll out it that way.

[@AL-ws5yi]

Yeah, it’s like a distinction without a difference.

[@s4juliette]

hate means active loathing, it's not the same emotion at all as thinking people are annoying pests. do you truly hate the bird that wakes you up in the morning all the time or the spider in your house?

[@ComicsPerch]

There’s a big difference between those two; and it’s actually one that comics defines well on a regular basis. Consider it the differences of character between the Red Skull and Galactus.

[@adamfrey4920]

Yeah, but Galactus is like a talking hurricane. He shows up, wrecks things, and maybe waxes poetic about it.

[@ComicsOdyssey]

@@ComicsPerch there is an ontological difference. But not much of a difference hermeneutically. What I mean is, how a person feels about me is much less important than how they act towards me. Whether they abuse me because they hate me or because they’re ignorant, the abuse still exists. Not saying that comics editors are abusing me, just illustrating a point.

[@andrewheard3099]

I like Ultimate Spidey but damn...something super exciting has got to happen soon, lol.

[@samhighvoltage]

As a Spidey fan I've never clicked so fast

[@clonegeek3317]

I'm still bothered by Joe Kelly saying that marriaged couples aren't interesting to write

[@InfamyOrDeath-__-]

Is Joe married himself? Very strange that someone can’t write a married couple, there’s so much that you can do there.

[@HarlanEllisonlives]

Then joe Kelly doesn't know how to write

[@AL-ws5yi]

That bothers me too. I can think of a million stories that you can do with a married couple.

[@Payload82]

I’m not married but I’m sure i could easily write storyline featuring a married couple.

[@alexandercastillo9315]

He’s lazy.

[@JosephPeluso-ce4tm]

Humility, anywhere in the entertainment industry? "Don't make to laugh, cousin Larry."

[@jds3k_616]

Nick Lowe should be in jail.

[@InfamyOrDeath-__-]

Hahahahahaha

[@derekbattle596]

I still buy amazing Spider-Man unfortunately.ive been buying it since the 80s.ive been a fan since i was a kid and you’re 100%right I love Spider-Man and im a collector and dont want to break my run but im at a breaking point of giving up.i want to believe it will change one day back to the better days of peter and Mary Jane back together with better writing.

[@smithryansmith]

i guess Nick Lowe thinks:. Its cruel to be kind.

[@todd8398]

Insert meme here: _Am I out of touch? No, it's the comic fans who are wrong!_

[@InfamyOrDeath-__-]

There’s some reason why they won’t put Peter & MJ back together, because it’s very obvious that at least 90% of the fans want that, I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone that didn’t want it, I’m sure there are but I haven’t seen them. And when it’s very obvious that all the fans want something then there has to be something going on behind the scenes at the Marvel office that’s stopping it.

[@paulissar1036]

It's because of the Sony movies.

[@superjlk_9538]

The movies and games are all doing the same thing too

[@AL-ws5yi]

I’m glad I didn’t go to that panel.

[@langpascal-e2h]

So Lowe!

[@HereComesCALICO]

Hate requires an emotional investment. The Big 2 have no emotion to speak of. Keep it Indie✨💪✨

[@kidicarus2215]

There has to be something about working with Spider-Man that makes you arrogant. Hopefully, Nick Lowe enjoys his new job at Wendy's.

[@shoresean1237]

Sometimes, we need our corporate overlords. Didio hung on at DC despite several debacles until AT&T moved in. Maybe Quesada, in his presumed Emeritus status, has some sort of say or veto in his contract?

[@CaptainOverkill]

It's probably more likely that due to his position, Quesada hired or helped hire people who thought like him, and as an emeritus type he likely still has sway with them. Part of the reason I think Peter and Mary Jane will never get back together is because Marvel keeps hiring people who think like the current editing group (which created this unnecessary problem for themselves in the first place). I have believed for years that Marvel publishing needs a cleanout and overhaul, but it won't get that because Disney doesn't care about them.

[@mayotango1317]

Again, thank God for fanfiction.

[@ComicsOdyssey]

I asked my shop what percentage are readers versus collectors and he says it’s 50/50

[@s4juliette]

Perch: somebody got into a fight with lowe me: Oh? 👀 Perch: and by fight i mean verbally me: oh... was really hoping people were actually throwing hands, now that'd be con news you wanna hear about

[@thegrizzmd7193]

I thought the kamala thing was a Feige mandate

[@jonathanl-j4i]

Yeah, but we don’t know exactly how far that mandate went. And if you have been told to off her, at least try to be respectful and give her some serious attention in the run up to it. She was barely used.

[@Rorysammy]

Remember this is exactly what Lowe predicted would happen… so much so that I think the NYCC argument was a set-up.

[@MultiversalArchivist]

I find it so funny that people claim Ultimate Spider-Man is "Giving the fans what they want" in terms of the Peter Mj thing when the two barely interact in the comic over all. Sure, when they do interact its awesome and yes one of the reason I love it is because its a universe where Peter and Mary Jane are married but really its more of a Peter and Harry story. Its also just written so darn well. But its still a far cry from the J. Michael Straczynski run.

[@faustmeth]

"We have the #1 comic in the world"??? I want to have some of that copium that he's having.

[@superjlk_9538]

It’s because of the variants. The variant covers are cool

[@skytowergnome4664]

Bottom line is that he is not giving anyone a reason to buy Spider-man.

[@davidgantenbein9362]

My current viewpoint is that Marvel will not fix Spider-Man while it would still matter to me. So the only path forward is to leave my love for Spider-Man behind. I just hope that apathy sets in sooner than later. Right now I‘m fully expecting that fans will wish Zeb Wells would return in 1+ years as Marvel will not improve in any way or form. Ah well, it is what it is and one day I will be able to even skip a video with news about Spider-Man … sweet, sweet apathy is all that’s left on that day.

[@superjlk_9538]

Just go read Ultimate Spider-Man

[@davidgantenbein9362]

@@superjlk_9538 Why should I? It’s a what if story that has nothing to do with the ongoing canon and isn’t fixing Spider-Man. At best it isn’t setting up MJ and the kids for some fridging.

[@nickjanecke6688]

I bought some Marvel back issues from 2010 a little while back, and the center fold was a double page spread of Peter and MJ (with her in a wedding dress I should add) reaching for each other, seemingly in homage to that famous painting (I don’t know classical art, apologies). I don’t remember what run this was an ad for, but my point in bringing this up is to illustrate that they have been teasing and baiting fans with “will the marriage come back?” for 10+ years now. That’s fucked up, full stop.

[@817mborja]

2010? I would assume it was for One Moment in Time. I have an issue of X Men Legacy 232 that has that image you're probably referring to but I can not find it on google for the life of me.

[@nickjanecke6688]

@@817mborja I think it was in a Siege tie-in

[@TitularHeroine]

Was the classical painting it homages the ceiling of the Cistine Chapel? First thing that came to mind.

[@817mborja]

@@TitularHeroine Creation of Adam by Michelangelo

[@nickjanecke6688]

@@TitularHeroine it was the one of the two guys reaching out to each other, one is an old man I think. So if that’s the same one as the person above me said, then that’s the one.

[@EvandroACruz]

Nick Lowe are finishing to ruin Spider-man comcis since OMD happened back 2008. Marvel just hate see Peter evolve like a character and have a family. I have to accept that my favorite superhero never will be happy with your former wife again. I'm so down with Marvel in these days. The good days are in the past now.

[@Hot_SpicyGrill]

Marvel thinks fans actually care about Peter’s personal drama when book Spider man, not Peter Parker.

[@FlameForgedSoul]

Apple feels that way about everyone, which is why they ignore legetimate critcisms even from their fans. Kind of like this douche you're discussing and the company that employs him. As we said in the "hate" video. It's not hate it's contempt or even worse; apathy.

[@carlgibson285]

I have no idea who Nick Lowe is but isn't Kevin Feige ultimately responsible for the current state of Spider-Man (and the rest of the Marvel Universe?). I may be wrong (it wouldn't be the first time ) but didn't he take over creative control of the comics a few years ago because he wanted the comics to more closely follow the movies? I'd guess that the real reason why Spidey and MJ aren't allowed to be together in the comics is because they're not together in the movies. It's almost guaranteed that once Mary Jane hooks up with Peter in the MCU they'll get back together in the comics too.

[@InfamyOrDeath-__-]

That’ll never happen since they keep rebooting the movies, so even if they got together in the movies, 3 years later it’d be rebooted and he’d be back to being a teenager.

[@carlgibson285]

@@InfamyOrDeath-__- TBH you're probably right. They've already pretty much confirmed they're doing a soft-reboot of the MCU after Secret Wars, so who knows where Spidey will be after that?

[@davidgantenbein9362]

Kevin Feige took over all of Marvel from Ike Perlmutter, but That doesn’t mean he is in any way or from directly involved with the comics or even cares for them at all. As we have seen so far, the movies and comics aren’t the same and there is zero effort to change that in any way or form that would matter. The comics even tend to get rid of important characters before movies drop, so that nobody ever finds the character from the movie in a newly published book (have done so at least with Dr Strange and Deadpool). That’s the extend of coordination Marvel is capable between comics and movies. Bottom line: Kevin Feige doesn’t interfere with comics nor does he care about them. He is the boss of a company that does less sale with a year of comics than a single MCU movie, so yeah, comics are just there, alone in their little corner.

[@carlgibson285]

@@davidgantenbein9362 you're right, but I do remember it being announced when Feige took over that he was being put in charge of overseeing Marvel as a whole, including the comics, and that he had a vision for where he wanted the comics to go. The story may not have gained much traction in comics news but most of the big movie sites reported it at the time.

[@davidgantenbein9362]

@@carlgibson285 I remember having read something along those lines, but that was imo just marketing in a time, where Marvel still tried to look like fan friendly.

[@jbbrolic]

Ultimate Spiderman is not very good and sells well because they did the bare minimum fan service move of Peter and MJ. Imagine if they got a really good writer and artist on doing an exciting story ASM and they roll back to before Sins Past (or even just OMD and Civil War.)

[@jonathanl-j4i]

It’s not even hard to see how easy it would be to write a story that would sell well, defeating Mephisto and restoring Mayday. The fact that is such an obvious direction to take to generate popular fan response and they won’t do it just smacks of ego, an absolute refusal to accept that sometimes giving the fans some of what they want actually WORKS. An absolute refusal to let go of an unpopular decision Quesada made a couple decades ago. I can’t think of a single thing that happened in the Zeb W run that actually felt like something fans were begging for. Quite the opposite. It is almost like they sat down and thought of all the ways they could damage the title the most short of writing Peter as a sex offender. Even Stan Lee, who wasnt exactly the most humble guy, would listen to the fans when it really counted. But I guess back then Marvel wasn’t the massive entity it is now and they had to think more about what would sell the most.

[@sonicdihedgehog1]

Nice. Really Nice.

[@clonegeek3317]

If I was at the panel, I would just ask who the hell Spider-Boy is for?

[@jds3k_616]

Dan Slott

[@feeWAIVER]

How would the fan react if Miles hooked up with MJ?

[@AL-ws5yi]

Ewww, no.

[@himzi1]

​@@AL-ws5yi it's like a boy dating his teacher's wife

[@feeWAIVER]

@@himzi1 MJ's a cougar.

[@billybarnett2846]

I dropped Marvel from my pull list like 20 years ago. Tired of loser Peter Parker. I was glad to see them make him rich for a while like I wanted.

[@KnightbladeStudios]

Ka-MA-la, Perch. :p

[@jimgillespie6109]

Fans can't get everything they want because they aren't a monolith: they want different things. Some fans want Pete with MJ, others want him with Felicia, and so on (and on... and on...).

[@andresanguianozuniga6798]

Agree, reason why "Give fans what they want" is a flawed argument.

[@jonathanl-j4i]

Yeah, sure, but I’m pretty sure NO fans wanted to see MJ dating a genocide guy and raising two magic kids with them. And they had their chance to do something decent with Felicia and that was a load of wasted crap too. Not to mention the crap they pulled with Ben Reilly and plenty of other supporting characters this run. It is hard to think of ANY fans who particularly got what they wanted this run, which is why it stank so bad. Except those guys who thought that half baked Tombstone stuff was the business or wanted to see a Goblified SM twice in the space of a few months I guess.

[@adamfrey4920]

Marvel's January solicits are out and most publishers are trickling in. I'm noting that January seems to be the lowest point for me of intended Marvel pulls: two facsimiles, Hulk, and Thor. Literally, I scrolled through and found very little that grabbed me. Oh, and I guess I'll get Ultimate Spider-Man. I wonder how long before Marvel picks up on the trend of "get back to basics and classics."

[@InfamyOrDeath-__-]

They’ll never pick up on that.

[@adamfrey4920]

I may get Rogue Savage Land, but I'm shocked and chagrined that they didn't get Claremont to write it since it's a retro memberberries series.

[@stephenhailey369]

But we got Jackpot, am I right?

[@jonathanl-j4i]

Third worst thing to come out of the comic after Paul and Chasm. Just ahead of Spider Goblin and Peter crying on the phone because Vulture is scary.

[@lanekramer8943]

I will just say as I usually do i prefer Peter and Felicia then Peter and Mary Jane...but lol as Zeb Wells run showed its not like they would do their relationship any better or not just use it as filler.

[@davidgantenbein9362]

Since OMD, Marvel has done variations the same relationship things with Peter: either they tease a „maybe MJ comes back“ or they have Peter being toxic in a relationship most fans don’t care about. OMD froze any and all meaningful progress for Peter as he can’t progress to MJ due to it being now forbidden, while any other direction is void and useless due to MJ remaining the goal (just to never be achieved). When I gave up on Spider-Man, my comment was along the line of „better make Peter gay, then we would at least get a new meaningful relationship as MJ would finally be out of the picture“.

[@sonicdihedgehog1]

Really, Really Like This Video. But, Really, Disagree With You on Marvel Being Filled with Mostly Arrogant People as Most of The Staff Like Will Moss, Daniel Kahzam, Devin Lewis, and The Likes are Some of The Best and Competent People Out There. But, Really, Lowe Has Shown A lot of His Arrogance. Even Moreson Than the Likes of Brevoort and The Likes. Really, Don't Think that The ASM Series is Actually Selling as High As It Should. Really, Sooner The Series Will Actually Have to Replace It's Staff with Something Better. And, Really, With The Whole Display that Lowe Gave Out, Really, He Can't Be Able to Do This Any Longer. Even Trying to Make the Whole Panel as Complicated as Possible. So, Really, With That, Think that Lowe would Definitely be Out Sooner........

[@jonathanl-j4i]

While I agree with much of your point, why is this written entirely in Title Case? lol

[@mayotango1317]

Thay guy is dead.

[@Bagoth2]

Ugh i hate peter and Mj. Get rid of it