Nine Weakest Warhammer 40K Armies by Win Rate - What's Struggling + Why?

[@monsoongaming]

If only Imperial Agents had an actual faction rule and not something that should just be in the assassin datasheets

[@RevanR]

Actually if you can have all four assassins deployed as one army with unique detachment, It'll be fun to play with

[@magiceagle8086]

Imperial agents always strike me as a ally codex vs a stand alone so I wasn’t too surprised of its ranking

[@stripeybag6977]

It's 2k of Kill Team with no Tanks

[@grapetonenatches186]

How dare you? They have a Chimera.

[@DisasterLord]

​@@grapetonenatches186The corvus is technically an overpriced tank if you count hover units

[@Brother_Rony]

The problem with thousand sons is their entire army rule to be honest. Its already been nerfed into the ground yet as the only remaining thing that holds tsons from plunging straight to the bottom of the winrate barrel so the whole army needs to be built around. Tsons probably have the single lowest diversity in their lists with everyone and their mother running magnus, ahriman, 2 infernal masters, 3x5 rubric marines with flamers, 2 mutilath vortex beasts and their choice of objective monkey which are usually englitened. The entire faction needs a complete rewrite

[@germanvsusa]

As a Thousands Sons player could not agree more

[@monsoongaming]

This problem with thousand sons has completely killed my motivation to finish my 2000 points list for them this edition. I feel so limited with my list creativity because if I don’t take the same list as every other tsons player I’m just massively shooting myself in the foot

[@deanmatecki6245]

Exactly to the point 🙌

[@Almighty_Mage]

Its almost as if they need a new units.

[@drunkenastarte5243]

World Eaters are just as bad as 1kSons for supposed "list diversity"... Every damn list is Angry-Ron + 8Bound spam + a token unit or two to score objectives + Wardogs It's almost as if GW screwed us both over by pretending 4 datasheets = a full codex?

[@scolack123]

I allow my buddy who just "finished collecting" his sororitas after a big christmas haul to use the pre nerf rules

[@MrLealLens]

You are a good friend

[@EPICSAWIKI]

A real G. They were perfectly fine before lol

[@Gigasius]

@@scolack123 Real mvp 🤜

[@scolack123]

@@EPICSAWIKI yeah I literally faced Triumph, exorcist, castigator, etc with my tyranids and won lol This was after the Vect aura buff for nids so sent out Swarmlord with 6 tyrant guard 😁 But no lie, i didnt find them oppressive, i enjoyed seeing him use miracle dice. Seems like a fun mechanic

[@Morrodin-WH40K]

@@scolack123 My feeling is that sisters got punished for the results of above average tournament players who were able to truly squeeze ever little advantage out of the rules. They could have required a few subtle nerfs but GW chose to use a bazooka to kill a fly... or maybe I am just biased as sisters is my main 40K army and I am a below average skilled player :P

[@RXYNA_]

Someone in the balance department definitely got curbstomped by a sisters of battle army and threw a hissy fit. Just got back into Warhammer end of last year, have a guess what army I chose to invest in..

[@KnightsofTitan]

Doesnt help thst the rules wrighter play if i rember right 6 or 7 games a year to test the rules. So that doesnt help either

[@scolack123]

And? Collect what looks cool Balance is temporary

[@RXYNA_]

@@scolack123 you right, just complaining to complain really

[@RXYNA_]

@@KnightsofTitan I did not know that

[@JackDespero]

Worse, they got stomped when the sisters codex came out and the points were all wrong. And they have been holding that grudge since then.

[@ChristianVonCarmian40kVtuber]

It is the difficulty of balance 6 months after the fact as the Eldar codex coming out has rules written to be compatible with the Balance Dataslate version of Dev wounds from July last year. So Sisters took a beating for their initial good launch. I would hope for the miracle dice reversals (I'm ok with some Bringers of Flame penalties) but expect only increased points on my beloved Exorcist

[@joelepro]

I don't know about BoF... at the very least it should have it's bonus at 12" just like space marines, and not just... 6" for seemingly no reason I can think of... 😞

[@JackDespero]

This. To this day I still cannot believe the amount of people who still believe to this day that sisters a month ago were the same sisters in the week after codex launch. Maybe they just played the one game at that time or they never paid attention to changes, but sisters were put in balance pretty quickly with absolutely massive point hikes that made units like Repentia and Arcos, staples in index sisters, basically useless anywhere except Penintent Host (which was itself pretty useless esp after the "correction" mentioning that you HAVE to use one of the benefits each turn, meaning that you only have a detachment rule the first three turns).

[@JackDespero]

After that, the only problematic detachment was BoF at 55% (not even "indisputably" the best army in the game, it was just top 3. Extremely good, but not Aeldari at launch or Necrons during their meta). The rest of them were 45-50%, with Penitent being the one lagging the most, sometimes 40 sometimes 50, very swingy.

[@JackDespero]

I think BoF should get the range of 12" back and just punish the strats that were too good. Again, it was a top 3 army, but it was no a 70% army. On good weeks it was first with 56%, on worse weeks it was third with 53%. A bit high, but not unreasonably high, specially taking into account how niche Sisters are, so these are basically pro player numbers. With casual players, they would be lower, as anything that requires managing another resource, in this case MD, will be more complicated for less experienced players.

[@ChristianVonCarmian40kVtuber]

@@joelepro oh yes, 6" is too short. But the CP changes were ok

[@timunderbakke8756]

Hey look, all of my armies are on this list. Cool.

[@antshelpwow4990]

You a tau player?

[@grapetonenatches186]

Well thats great news then. One of them has to be due for meta come up before 11th. Or in 11th. If not, there's always 12th. So exciting.

[@noname-do5wo]

Congrats on the extra attention

[@FatherDavinci]

Oh fantastic... i just started my sisters army. This is encouraging. Especially at sister prices

[@modelsnstuffreveiws6628]

My sisters…. We were in a fine place why did they have to nuke us so hard.

[@entilzha1283]

Someone didn't like strong, religious females? *Side eyes Amazon*

[@sklingenberg86]

I deeply and humbly apologize for playing an army with about a 55% win rate for a few weeks some months before the dataslate. I suppose it's time to repent.

[@JackDespero]

@@sklingenberg86 As a sister dogmata (derogatory), I order you to report to your sister superior for deployment into the Repentia squads. (Sisters dogmata are similar to the commissars but for sisters. I have to explain it because they are so useless this edition that most people have never seen one, they are probably not even aware that they have a datasheet).

[@sklingenberg86]

@@JackDespero how i miss the days of 9th and playing the Bonkmata's...

[@jacket2848]

​@@sklingenberg86they were 49% for 3 months before the nerf by the way

[@Gigasius]

Sororitas nerf really was one of the most pointless things they have done in while.

[@IAmTheDawn]

uh not really. very clear you don't really play the game.

[@Gigasius]

@@IAmTheDawn I do, granted not on tournament levels, but the MD update was too heavy-handed and short-sighted. I get that substituting rolls is annoying to other players, but with the codex MD's were also more widely used as resource to power unit abilities and stratagems. (Discard x amount of MD's, you get to do y) Cutting the MD's in half, or even 1/3 depending on the list really screws over some of the detachments that wants you juggle with MD's. Which is also the reason why the Grotmas detachment is so bad, as it wants you to spend a lot of MD's to power it's rules, MD's that you just don't have anymore. Really shows that it was written before the nerf. Honestly salt aside, I'm fine with nerfing MD's, but you need to give something in return. Maybe have low count MD's and a separate "faith point" resource to power the abilities? Idk.

[@JackDespero]

@@IAmTheDawn Well, I do, and I fully agree with that statements. BoF was the only detachment that one could argue was strong. And not top 1 uncontested best army in the game, Aeldari at launch or Necros after codex strong. More like top 3, 53-56% strong. The rest of the detachments never broke above 50%. The correct thing would have been to solve the internal balance problem, by nerfing BoF and buffing basically everything else. Maybe you are the one who never played the game, if you think that Penitent Host or Faith were in a good place, for example.

[@stevenoneill4015]

@@IAmTheDawn very clearly you dont know as much as you think you do

[@jacket2848]

​@@IAmTheDawnyou're the one who clearly doesn't play kiddo. 49% win rate in the 3 months between the initial points nerf and the last mega nerf. They weren't winning tournaments in the last month of that either, they were topping but not winning. They were a perfectly average army, objectively. The stats don't lie.

[@marziodimastrogiovanni127]

2 things are certain in life. Death and to find admech in weaker’s factions’s videos

[@jackcanox4015]

Yeah we have it rough this edition honestly! I Really miss our end of 9th place! Yes the edition was a mess but gosh admech were so fun and had a ton of options to play with. Current admech is not even weak it's just not fun to play, the faction does actually zero damage requires a ton of bodies to work and out of the 6 detachment only 2 are viable but not out standing in the great scheme of the game, one is extremely mid but playable (radzone) and 3 are literally un playable. There is very little build variety and you MUST move block and score to have a chance... that's it that's your faction. MOVE BLOCK, stand still, die, repeat.

[@JackDespero]

Just as the omnissiah intended.

[@Pathetic-Cards]

@@jackcanox4015 Preach, brother. So many people in my local community don't seem to get it. "47% winrate isn't bad!" Yes, but its not *fun*! I can play my blood angels and have all these awesome, splashy units that my opponent live in fear of, and then I go to admech and my units... sure do stand there!

[@ExhaustedWombat]

@@Pathetic-Cardshey, at least they look damn good doing it.

[@maxtracker2904]

19:05 “Balance changes - they got wrecked” 😂

[@Sigismundssword]

Black templars, my main army, once the scurge of Space Marines, now nerfed into oblivion, a shadow of their former selves. This is a lesson in dont meta chase like some did. I still have fun with my templars but i liked them by putting 60 crusaders and 3 dreds on the table and just having fun, but thanks to warhammer competetive my boys got nerfed to where i basically cant take my unique units

[@H-to-O]

The black Templar box set was my first box I ever bought. Before I even finished building them, they were nerfed into the ground for no reason. This entire process has taught me one thing: codex marine players will bitch and moan about literally EVERYTHING at all times rather than enjoy the game. It’s started to sour me on the table top aspect.

[@kadesmith6513]

Templars paid for using iron hands detachment. That got us nerfed into the ground to the point our own detachment suffered. Why non codex compliant armies have access to codex detachments is beyond me. Would be a lot easier to balance if you couldn’t take Templar keywords in codex detachments.

[@Sigismundssword]

@H-to-O i feel you. I really wanted to play deathwatch about 8 months ago after building my templars then their rules got axed, so I went woth dark angels, excited about how good they were, then DWK got put at 250 fucking points so I got kinda diswaded. Then deathwatch came back, I bought some vets then I see that they sweeped LVO, so I already know they're gonna get nerfed into the ground. It's never ending

[@Sigismundssword]

@kadesmith6513 I think it's so dumb that just cause we have multimeltas on tanks that means our whole faction has to suffer

[@maxmagnus377]

45% winrates is not "nerfed into oblivion". I get that it's not an ideal place to be, and they need some changes to bring them back up a bit, but 45% is still within the "balanced" range of winrates.

[@jonathandavis9118]

Sisters caught one of the most savage and in depth nerfs we've seen, army rule nerfed, detachment rules nerfed, strats nerfed, units nerfed - and all of it was entirely unecessary from a balance standpoint. Sisters were sitting at a perfectly balanced 50% before these changes. The changes promptly drove them down from 50% to 40% win rate as everyone immediately predicted. It's been one of the most baffling uncalled for nerfs we've seen during the entire edition. Every single nerf to bringers of flame needs to be reverted - it took big hits from the changes to the triumph, and the changes to MD, and the nerf to armor of contempt. If GW wants to reduce the # of miracle dice sisters players get, that's fine, but massive parts of the codex need to be rewritten. For example, a righteous rage palatine could consume FIVE miracle dice in a SINGLE fight phase. When you are generating one MD a turn, those rules obviously don't work any more. Same thing for champions of faith : you have to discard three miracle dice a turn to turn on your detachment rule. This needs to be changed : maybe sacresants and BSS can just be righteous for free all the time, and you just have to pay to empower paragons. In addition to rewriting all the 'consume an MD to do something' rules, lots of sisters points needs to come down. Also the points increase to castigator needs to be reverted. There have been multiple weeks where sisters of battle performed worse than imperial agents - who don't even have an army rule! In terms of what armies need buffs, sisters and agents stand head and shoulders above the rest in terms of need. Can't believe agents still don't have a real army rule.

[@josciety5579]

As a sisters player it’s so devastating to see them here. That last dataslate really fucked us over.

[@Majere613]

Let's be clear what happened to Sisters: Their Miracle Dice generation didn't get cut in half, it got cut by more than two-thirds, possibly even more than that. Only generating one dice in a phase where a unit dies, rather than one per unit, leaves potentially three or four dice down on were you might have been if an opponent has a 'big turn', and that only gets worse if they're an army that only gets kills in one phase (e.g. Tau shooting or Daemon melee). Their only tournament-viable Detachment got utterly destroyed. Castigators, which have no weapons of Strength higher than 10 (excluding HKs) and nothing with an AP of better than -1, now cost more than Gladiator Lancers which can fairly trivially one-shot them. The only truly dangerous left unit in the Codex, Vahl+ Paragons, has rules which only support one out of its three main weapon builds and is still so fragile and short-ranged that it has to start in Reserve. The Triumph is a bad joke that costs more points than a Land Raider. The Dialogus has an ability she can't use due to the MD drought and got her points nerfed upwards anyway because people were running her solo for Actions, despite multiple other Codexes having Characters with actually useful abilities solo for less (eg. Commissars). A few apparently influential players waged a concerted hate campaign against Sisters because they didn't like Miracle Dice, and GW bought it hook, line and sinker. Rolling back the last update is the only sane option, but they seem determined to let the army rot for months before they can be bothered.

[@bensemusx]

It’s so stupid that many of the Sisters datasheets cost more than their SM counterparts. The Castigator will be used until it’s stupidly over costed because it’s one of the few units that can do damage, not because it’s OP.

[@toasteethetoaster5978]

Agents, the army composed almost entirely of kill team kits, is underdeveloped? How could GW have POSSIBLY seen that coming?!

[@viterkondriianenko8291]

Interesting. I started painting Sorroritas last year when they did well. I am not sad because of two reasons. First, i chose them not because they were strong but because they have the best helmets anong all fractions. Second, By the time I finish painting, the balance will change a few more times and maybe the sisters will once again take their place among the strong.

[@JackDespero]

I agree. The combination of helmets, haircuts, and hooded heads is the best in the game. I refuse to field Cadians with their toaster helmets.

[@wombataldebaran9686]

Spoken like a true Sister. Nerfs are just the Emperor testing our patience and resolve. Things will go up again eventually, and until then we play with the difficulty turned up a little.

[@tommywilliams9497]

CSM are probably gonna struggle for the rest of the edition, GW is terrified of them being as strong as they were at the launch of 10th.

[@JackDespero]

Not a single Sister in the top 100 of the LVO last week, by the way. Out of 1000 players, I think that only like 10-20 played sisters, all playing Hallowed Martyrs. And they are all the last faction experts, as the rest ditched the army entirely. So out of the top of the top of sisters players in NA/world, not as single one could get sisters to even top 100. That tells you everything that you need to know.

[@drunkenastarte5243]

World Eaters are pretty much the same boat... for the entire edition, our win rates keep getting skewed by a bare handful of 'pro' players Adding Khorne Daemons into our codex isn't going to change shit. No one enjoys a faction who's entire mechanic is basically, "we made you faster than you should be because if you can't reach melee by top of T2 you auto-lose" Instead, I'm expecting GW to forget we even exist for at least the next 10+ years, and maybe by 15th edition or so we'll actually be allowed to take a basic Chaos Lord?! >.< (...seriously GW, just fething squat us at this point and shove us back into CSM's as "Angry Red Marines")

[@JackDespero]

@@drunkenastarte5243 I cannot comment on that as I do not play World Eaters. It seems to me, listening to pros, that it is an army that requires a lot of skill and patience, but you get rewarded for it. Now, as I said, I do not play them so I don't know how much "skill and patience" is required to actually have a functional army. If it is too much for 90% of the players, they should lower the ceiling and raise the floor, but again, I don't know. In the case of sisters, not even our top players are able to do anything at the moment, so this is not just "sisters are hard to play" is "sisters are hard to play, and even when you know them inside out and you are at top sister player in the world, you won't make it to top 100".

[@jacket2848]

​@@drunkenastarte5243 world eaters have had a smattering of wins and top placings lately, especially with Vessels of hate

[@Zeldaytal]

Sisters of Battle Miracle Dice nerf was a War Crime

[@andrewt9128]

And not in the way that the Sisters usually like

[@havelock1982]

Imperial Agents is just a sad soup, it would be a very smooth transition for many Killteam players/collectors into bighammer.

[@rip.tear.]

The adeptas sororitas nerf still pisses me off, they were really fun to play up until then...

[@severdislike4222]

Ask your play group if you can keep the old rules. Know ours has done that before to not deal with "Frigging stupid changes" that we all agree were incredibly stupid.

[@JackDespero]

@@severdislike4222 Yeah, this really only affects tournaments and people forced to play with strangers. If people are worry about BoF, then tell them to let you play any other detachment but with pre nerfed rules. All the other detachments had been below 50% of a while, so they were perfectly fine. I would argue that BoF with some tweaks would still perfectly fine to play, but I don't play BoF anyway, so for me it is not an issue.

[@grapetonenatches186]

I look at it like this. GW loves us. If they kept us satisfied with our armies then we wouldnt get frustrated with them and buy a new army. Its all about love and compa$$ion.

[@DisasterLord]

I still have fun with the nuns, but I'm the kind that never uses named characters so take that with a grain of salt, winning is harder with most detachments thanks to the lack of MD. I would have preferred to see the paragons and triumph gutted over punishing all the detachments ability to function to be honest.

[@getjinxed7354]

@@grapetonenatches186 this is why i have not bought a single model since early 9th. 3d printer go brrr if gw is going to be this trash i feel 0 guilt about not giving them money

[@JackDespero]

21:10 I use the helmless sergeant model of that unit for my Guard army. She is so cool

[@avlaenamnell6994]

Sob getting nerfed as hard as they did is just sad. bringer of flame being 6" rather than 12" was the nail in the coffin for me, i dont enjoy the other detachments so the onlty one i liked got a mega nerfed

[@masoncarter1710]

I would have been interested in trying out the new detachment because some of my favourite units are paragons, sacrasants and battle sisters but with the miracle dice nerf, you basically choose between the army rule or detachment rule and that's it!

[@JackDespero]

@@masoncarter1710 The new detachment is probably the worst one at the moment, unfortunately. It was designed for an army that does not exist anymore, and thus it is hungry for MD but without reliable ways to get them. Faith is also hungry for MD (and you basically have no detachment rule now, as nobody has two MD to use on the same unit on the same turn), but at least it has many ways to generate MD, so you can at least somewhat use it.

[@JackDespero]

I said that sisters now are worse than index sisters. I wish some WH40k would actually play a game of codex sisters now vs index sisters (with their points, rules, index detachment, etc). There is no doubt in my mind that index sisters would win, even if just because the rules are only slightly worse, but you can basically field 50% more bodies, including great scoring units like assassins and crusaders. The dice generation is even worse now than it was back then. And sisters index was always on the bottom half, sometimes bottom quarter, of armies, so the fact that codex sisters are 2nd worse is nothing but expected.

[@getjinxed7354]

sister index rules are better idk why you mean worse. index has access to cheap units like crusaders who not only dirt cheap secondary units they are annoying to to kill and give you miracle dice when they die and flagellants were stronger.

[@behemoth9543]

Yeah, GW is vastly overestimating the points one should pay for Dark Pacts when its already a double edged sword that damages and kills your own units quite a lot. Its fine if CSM are glass cannons that kill themselves when attacking but its not fine when you pay 45 points more for a Forgefiend with the same stats as the World Eaters one(190 vs 145) just because it has Dark Pacts. Other armies just get more value for their points a lot of the time. Not to mention the basically army wide 3+ to hit even for very expensive units

[@WontonDestruction]

Agreed, we are way overcosted. Makes things really difficult in the trading game, because you're constantly relying on spikes in your damage output due to dark pacts, and they don't happen as consistently as what you're paying for

[@bensemusx]

Dark Pact almost never actually does damage to you though.

[@WontonDestruction]

@bensemusx 😆 I must be praying to the wrong gods then. I fail 3+ every game without fail

[@NickDaMan]

​@@bensemusxUm, if you dark pact without an icon you fail more than 1 in 4 tests. If you have 15 units in your 2000 point army and activate them each twice on average in a game, you'll expect to take 16ish MW.

[@ValkeersYT]

Sister are my first army... started collecting and building them in october... save to say im quite disheartened and turned off by now.

[@Majere613]

If your player group is OK with it, run them as Marines for now if necessary, Salamanders in Firestorm for example. GW have seriously dropped the ball on the Sisters' balance changes. Make sure you let GW know how you feel (politely) when they post about Sisters too. The message will get through eventually.

[@getjinxed7354]

@@Majere613 nah just leave the hobby seriously if you want to keep playing go 100% 3d print at this point and dont contribute to gw in any way until they fix their balance team for a meanigful time. this is the SECOND army this edition they just gutted for no reason. BT also on this list a 45% win rate army got massive pts increase in october when they were a 49% win rate army sisters were 51% in dec and also got gutted. despite gw committing to a balance update with rule changes every 3months now they are vary obviously not looking at the previous patch effect on game. because if they were BT wouldnt of been nerfed and if they were they would of had the pts increase reverrted in dec but didnt and sisters also woudlnt of been nerfed after october. which means we can almost be sure we will not see sisters buffed much in march cus they will just THEN be using OCTOBERS data in freaking feb and march when writing the next dataslate.

[@fateweaver9844]

​@@getjinxed7354lol. You think a couple thousand people 3d printing is even making a blip on gw radar? That's like 10,000 people not buying gas for a month to protest fuel prices. The oil companies aren't even going to notice such a minute loss of revenue 😅😅

[@ValkeersYT]

​@@fateweaver9844 nah, i get their sentiment. If i can print armies for myself... i can print them for my friends too... if more and more friendgroups have a single person 3d printing for them (or buying proxy prints from 3d printing websites) it will make a dent over time...

[@ValkeersYT]

For me it really put a mark in my early experience with the game and gw. Erading my trust in them honoring any players buying choices... they want me to buy sisters, i buy. While i build and paint they tell me "sorry mate, we punched sisters into the ground, but look imperial guard get a real good new codex... maybe purchase these"... sorry but i cant support that.

[@willhull9839]

There was no reason to hit the merical dice as hard as they did.

[@poetrollem326]

sisters only having a 50% WR running a broken detachment and "broken" miracle dice= surely they will survive both of these being nerfed in sequence

[@shamurai7]

if the winrate was only 50 then obviously neither were broken

[@poetrollem326]

@@shamurai7 If you're exceedingly generous you can say that people playing other stuff might have been weighing down the winrate, but I don't disagree.

[@JackDespero]

@@shamurai7 That is the whole point. The army was 50% pre nerfs and they took one of the biggest rounds of nerfs from any army in 10th. The comment points out the laughable idea that you can take a balanced army (maybe BoF was too strong, but the others were too weak, so they were lacking internal balance, not balance) and you gave them the Aeldari at launch treatment. Except Aeldari took these nerfs over many months, not all at once.

[@bensemusx]

@@poetrollem326OP as being sarcastic.

[@Cruxxy21]

@@JackDespero Aeldari getting little tweaks and adjustments over the course of a year despite having ludicrous winrates throughout versus sisters getting curbstomped 6 months after having a couple good weeks at codex launch is wild. And now the new Aeldari codex looks amazing.

[@JackDespero]

Well, vindication at last. For almost a month I have had to hear haters baselessly "explain" to me why sisters were as OP as Aeldari at launch and why these nerfs were not only fair, but sisters will be fine, "you just have to play now, bro, not just autopilot". For a month I said that sisters will end up surely under 45% and probably closer to 40% than to 45%. I am surprised that some people still do so well, in fact I thought that they might be going to 35%. I guess that I didn't count on Hallowed Martyrs to have some gas in the tank. (The rest of the detachments are 30-35% for sure, only HW pushing it to 42% on average, since it is the best and most played one).

[@Goober2289]

Yeah, it was quite tiring to see people constantly saying sisters deserved the nerfs and comparing them to early 10th eldar.

[@JackDespero]

@@Goober2289 Or thinking of the two weeks post codex when the points were completely out of whack. Yeah, I fully agree, in those two weeks, Sisters were the indisputable best army in the game (still not Aeldari at launch or Necros after codex), but damn, that was MONTHS ago and for two weeks. Then GW quickly took the nerf hammer and put them in place (making some units and detachments honestly pretty bad), with only BoF being around 55% and around top 5/ top 3, depending on the week. How bad were the mental scars that those games left on people?? I in fact did not play sisters during those two weeks, because I found it pointless (haha). The points were clearly wrong, and I would not have enjoyed just stomping people. But after that sisters were perfectly fine, even quite hard to play, especially if you tried anything other than BoF. Being T3 W1 3+ and a somewhat elite army will always make them extremely weak, and they need very good rules to compensate for that. Repentia and Arcos were only usable inside Penitent Host, which was by far the worst detachment after the two week nerfs. Not only do Repentia die to a breeze, so they need a Rhino to be transported, but they are 19 points per model. Per model! That is more than some space marines with T4 W2 3+! So they only worked when you use them in PH because then you have some rules to make them actually worth the points. And so on.

[@maxmagnus377]

Den of Fool's video of the 3 week running total winrates puts them at just under 38% winrates I believe. Not sure where the disparity between his and Auspex' data comes from, but I trust them more for stats that Auspex. It's grim for sisters right now, someone at the balance team royally screwed up with the latest changes.

[@maxmagnus377]

@@JackDespero People never forget, and never forgive, it seems. You STILL hear people say that Eldar only deserve the worst, just cause they were broken for 4 months in early 10th.

[@JoshuaBlomberg]

@@maxmagnus377 They were broken for 4 months in 10th AND a good chunk of 9th, AND they stole Sisters' army rule, AND now the codex is apparently stealing the best of other factions. The faction needs to be destroyed by popular opinion not because it is inherently bad, but because the people who write Eldar rules need to be thrown out the window and chased out of town, and to be made an example for what happens when you REPEATEDLY, CONSISTENTLY favor one faction above the health of the game and the enjoyment of the players.

[@Kirtashtanable]

Complaining about MD being unfair or creating feelbad moments is pretty ridiculous considering rules like oath of moment full re-rolls and reanimation protocols exist

[@TheGreySpectrum]

Mordian Glory: "GUYS, TAU ARE JUST WORKING OUT THE KINKS OF THEIR CODEX, THEY'RE ACTUALLY COMPLETELY BUSTED. JUST WAIT, YOU'LL SEE, THAT WIN-RATE IS GONNA GO WAY UP."

[@TheRkyeet]

Tau is the best when they have low winrates, they should be a high-skill army. I love that almost everything is viable in some way but also needs careful thought for every play.

[@naughtiusmaximus1231]

Hats off to Auspex, working overtime to deliver the 40K goodness!

[@ApollosRage991]

It’s a sad day to see all the armys I play on this list. Thousand sons chaos knights and chaos space marines. Sad day indeed

[@maxmagnus377]

Only one army on here is really in a bad spot balance wise (Agents don't count) and that's Sisters. The 42% here is generous, I've seen other sources (ones actually dedicated to keeping track of stats) put them closer to 38%. Tsons and CK being at 47% is perfectly healthy for armies in 10th, the vast majority of factions are currently in the 50-45% range. CSM only need a few small tweaks to join in that group.

[@thebatman8957]

I just started building a Sisters Army before the nerf. I'm building a Hallowed Martyrs army but hopefully they get a buff by the time I finish 2000 points. Hoping to be done building and painting by June. On the bright side my Space Marine Army is doing pretty well right now. I still haven't been winning but am no longer getting tabled.

[@TheWarpForge]

What’s wrong with the CSM? I'll explain: Comes down to a few points: Overcosted units: Most units are still costed as pre-codex. A prime example of this is the Forgefiend. It used to be worth 190pts when you could slap the Nurgle Lone Op. Stratagem on him but now that's been nerfed to 18" it's more expensive than a Vindicator for a gun that isn't as good. Raptors are another example which went up 10pts for no reason. Possessed are overly expensive now they can't seem to get FnP on them anymore. Most units need to be cheaper Most Detachments are bad: Most detachments such as Deceptors and Dread Talons should be thriving in a Pariah Nexus Environment with the reliance of Battleline Units but aren't simply because externally speaking they need a heavy points investment of upto 1600pts to get the core of their detachment engine to work in a list, and rely heavily on jumping through several hoops of set up to get working meanwhile you could just play WE have Aangron and Kharn with 'Zerks in a Land Raider and get guaranteed T1 charges and mop up the heavy lifters without much, if any, resistance early game. Or be Eldar where you have a free in-game currency with no drawbacks for extra buff or debuff skills and Utility with Battle Focus as one example. It’s not worth the setup in the early game. It futher doesn't help that viability speaking, Dread Talons got absolutely nuked in the December update such as their 3" DS strat turned into 6" DS with no charging from that and now it's only -1 to BS tests. Low OC Army: Most of our army is OC1. Unsure if compared to externally but the only things that are more than OC1 in CSM is Legionaries, characters, and Tanks. Everything else is OC1. Low damage army: In the CSM codex there is only one weapon that does D:4 and that's on obliterators. Nothing else, not even Abaddon has a higher damage value with the exclusion of D6+1 Damage which is swingy. We can get volumes and access to dev wounds but relying on the swing of the dice is inefficient in a competitive environment which is obsessed with optimal consistency.

[@Internetbutthurt]

Great post. Not the only reasons CSM sucks but all true.

[@GCarssow]

I also feel like the Army isn't nearly as durable as one would expect. Yeah they're not Drukhari or anything, but considering they're supposed to be blessed by literal Gods (and insane to boot), far more of their units should have FNP.

[@jeremiegartner464]

@@GCarssow i agree. with grotmas handing out DMG and Mortals to almost every army along with nerfs to AOC the base CSM unit is worse across the board. we got zero damage boosts and actually lost Defense.

[@Impgent]

So far I always voted for agents to get buffs and a real army rule, but after toying around for a couple months now I actually think they are (mostly) good. It is absolutely not an army that instantly does great for you on the table, but one that demands you to play the best you can. There is no mercy for mistakes and you constantly need to stay ahead, but if you are accepting the challenge it is an awesome fun army to play. Honestly, playing something basically nobody else plays is not the worst thing in the world. And don't forget the mindgame for your opponents not to loose against the 'weakest' army😜

[@mitchchisholm180]

GW did far to much nerfing on they CSM codex, they should have let it compete fairly, now they have to go back and change points and rules when they could have just let it ride a few months

[@Noalak]

Naaa, Accursed cultists were cracked. The internal balance is great atm. The external one is really meh. We kill, but by the dark gods we have no scoring units. SM Scouts at 70pts, my dream. TS Cultists with Scouts 6" at 55pts, would take it. Any infiltration. Any redeploy in battle. We kill, sometime ourselves too.

[@mitchchisholm180]

@Noalak find the anti vehicle anti monster in the codex please. 🤔

[@getjinxed7354]

basically they story of most these armies. SoB Tau and BT are all in the same boat. gw had them at a all 3 of them at a 49-51% win rate and could of just let them be but instead were like "how about 3 more nerfs? yea 3 more nerfs sounds good". because despite gw committing to rule changes every 3 months they are clearly not looking at the newest data AT ALL when doing those changes depsite having 0 excuse cus they are not printing books they are quite literally just posting a pdf.

[@LordErebusBloodmoon]

​@@getjinxed7354honestly I think most of decisions are made too far in advance

[@Talladir]

Yeah, it really is hard playing Sororitas right now. Lost all last 5 games I played - and it wasn't close. I mean, we had fun, with couple of beers and snacks and all but the defeats felt really bad, no matter how well i played or rolled the dice. Maybe it gets better, maybe ...

[@zetta-slow-gobbo]

Never have I been more happy to *not* see Orks on either the strongest or weakest list videos with Taktikal Brigade having had time to breathe.

[@kylewells6871]

When it comes to CK, I'm having a lot of fun with the iconoclast fiefdom, it's not overpowered but it can win. I've beat starshatter once with it, it's nuked sisters, and generally I've had some very close scoring games. You have to take the profane alter double gatling cannon despoiler, keep him in the back and surround him then he just toe him in and rinse units. Then the lancer for that massive advance and charge, make them deal with him. Hide your cultist too, you want to be the only one killing them. I've been able to make 40 of them last til the last round, one thing that they're super useful for is screening your backline, deepstrike armies hate my list.

[@vintageswiss9096]

Votann are my favorite human faction. I build them for the dream that we may yet get an update one day. The League shall rise! (Mildly, they're short, after all...)

[@jacket2848]

They're not human

[@vintageswiss9096]

@jacket2848 clones/humans potato potato... it's 40k...

[@ratri4969]

Imperial Agents just need two things and two things alone....a faction rule and a better motor pool.

[@Filipo290]

As a Templar und Sister player i Knew this Video is gonna hurt my feelings before watching it 🥲

[@Skitch213]

You have to be really careful using tournament win rates as a metric for anything. Even some of these "mid tier" armies are comparatively weak if you don't cheese and spam the best units. Grey Knights sitting with a 50% win rate has little to do with Grey Knights as a faction and everything to do with the power of the Nemesis Dreadknight as a datasheet - but try playing a game without one or even a maximum of one instead of the tournament standard of 3 - 4 minimum and see what happens. The same applies for basically every faction, it's just that I'm most familiar with GK so that's my go-to. It's really hard to objectively say that any faction is good or strong when 9 times out of 10, it's all just slight variations of the same list using the most meta units when it comes to tournaments. I'm just of the opinion that if I *need* to spam a certain datasheet and have it carry my army to a 50% win rate, then my faction is not that strong.

[@crono252]

I think tsons are in an alright spot with the exception of list diversity, army rule is fine if youre on a lot of characters and that hurts you a lot, as long as youre on one infernal master and a couple rubric flamers most people seem to do alright even if the gameplay becomes kinda samey hoping we get something after 8 years of being around but ive played in 2 locals and multiple casual games with them since Christmas and am feeling fine (64% personal winrate with the army) i am excited for daemons joining us i hope when we get lord of change heralds etc we'll have more choices for stuff or maybe a tweaking of the army rule to make generic tzangor and scarab occults not feel bad

[@whitefamilliar3057]

tragic man. Going from doing quite well in team events with sisters to scared to even consider taking them, has to be the biggest leap in my time as a sisters player. I've tried dozens of different lists and I cant seem to make this work in my practice games. It really is disheartening. From Hero to zero...

[@frostblasts]

I dont see how they would Balance Imperial Agents. By design they shouldnt be winning much in open battlefields. But the Sororitas are painful. From core to pieces, everything was unjustifiably nerfed.

[@stripeybag6977]

God Emperor damn it Ultramarines are going to get everyone nerfed. Like maybe instead of +1 to Wound on Oath they could've started by fixing interactions like 2/3 Dedicated Transports not working with 99% of the Army, Fix leaders and the units they should be able to go with (Looking at you Bladeguard Veterans), or changing some abilities to be way less niche like Invictor Warsuits and ATV shoot back

[@jacket2848]

It's not just ultramarines, most marines right now are doing very well and have risen up massively. Every tournament has like 50% of the top players as marines right now, it's bonkers

[@holdenchambers3986]

Robby G just needs to not enable yet another free strat for marines. With uriel, gman, calgar, and a captain you can use 3 strats for the price of 1, gain an extra cp for a 4th and force your opponent to pay extra for theirs. The resource advantage alone is insane

[@rystat]

they need to have sisters go back to a regular army not an elite army, the units are only held up by MD and good rules. they arent hard to take off the board at all besides that

[@SilentButDudley]

I do wish there were a few more assassin disciplines. One focused on saboteurs and sabotage that isn’t espionage, like a bomb specialist infiltrator with some crazy abilities. I feel like Callidus is much more information, control and assassination focused, while I feel like there should be an assassin class that just wreaks havoc on infrastructure within enemy territory and cripples their necessary systems with strategic bomb placements and other acts, like blowing up rooms full of enemy leadership.

[@JackDespero]

A saboteur for assassination anti-tank would be great, honestly. I think that it is what is missing from the current rooster.

[@martinkafka9510]

Percentage-wise meta seems to be in a good place. However it seems to me (just a feeling with no hard numbers behind it) that tournament wins are concentrated into smaller number of factions (factions, not detachments). Therefore it seems to me that while chance of going 3-2 with most armies (except Sisters now) might have increased, going 5-0 got rather limited into few factions since Christmas new detachments and balace update.

[@brianhutton2370]

AoC was massive for Votann. Trust me, that % Drop is accurate

[@JackDespero]

Same with BoF for sisters. People see the list of nerfs and they think that they are harsh, but most people forget that BoF was the only detachment of sisters with AoC, and that alone would tank their WR like a stone, as T3 W1 3+ need AoC to survive a breeze with anything larger than AP 0.

[@Louiscypher93]

Adepta Sororitas got screwed over

[@WilliamSabio]

My Black Templar army is still going strong locally and on the TTS server so I mean I hope we get some slight buffs and keep our FNP

[@LionElAngron]

Are you going to do a video on the mid-tier armies and how they’re well balanced?

[@matthewahn2717]

I had a thought while going through the ImpAgents Codex (yes, I did buy one since I thought I could just use most of my Grey Knights for an Agent army before it was officially announced what was in the book), but maybe a way they could get some more units since their "range" is pretty abysmal is to have 'requisitioned' forces, be it members of the Guard or Space Marinesthematiperson who is big on thematics, it could be the Inquisition taking over certain forces to forward their own agendas. Plus, it could fill out their range a bit better to not just be limited to some iffy transports, characters who would probably be better in other armies, and KT kits. But that's besides the fact that their rules are complete garbage. Again, thematically I like some of their rules, but in practice it all just looks garbage...and I haven't even played a single game yet XD

[@shirghazaycowboys]

Good thing I don’t play at tournaments. I’ll keep playing kauyon tau

[@itsmefil2670]

still cant get over how GW forgot to give the pryeblasters of the templars the same ap buff definitly the thing holding them back rn

[@astronomybrainiac]

Tournament play and its consequences have been disastrous for warhammer 40k

[@dirtyboom667]

I wish GW would buff the Fellhammer Siege Host Detachment. Yes, -1 to wound is nice when strength > toughness, but that only counts for ranged attacks. Why not in melee? CSM wants to get into melee with Legionnaires, Posessed, Chosen and Terminators.

[@Swampert919]

I dunno if that would really save fellhammer… the biggest issue with that detachment is that it’s all defensive buffs and reactive stratagems, which isn’t ideal for a game that heavily rewards being proactive and especially for an army that loves to be aggressive like CSM. Effectively it only helps you not loose, rather than actually helping you win. Don’t get me wrong I want buffs for it if only so I can use my iron warriors with their own detachment, but I don’t think it’ll ever be competitive without some rewrites.

[@nkoehler337]

Black Templars are just a little over costed, right now. I’m hoping we get a little bit of pull-back on the points hikes and I think we’ll be in an okay spot until our codex comes out. There’s alot of good players just not playing our army at the moment. Skill issue might be a bit of a meme, but it’s kind of true in our case.

[@JackDespero]

It would come with some sort of rule change to unit size, etc. GW just don't want the 10000 cheap T4 W2 3+ bodies with amazing damage. Maybe remove battle line from some units, maybe cap the max size for others, etc. Reduce the number of allowed bodies so that you can reduce the number of points knowing that they are not going into putting more bodies.

[@masterch33fII7]

BT units feel 10-20 pts too high. It’s currently better to play em as regular marines unfortunately

[@MarlboroFed]

@@JackDesperothe big crusader squads are like half of the appeal of BT maybe getting rid of the batteline keyword to limit it to 3 units would be a good idea instead of capping unit size.

[@schaaf9637]

as usual, grea video. For the Khan!

[@StaticSilence1]

Imperial Agents should not be a book at all. That means sisters are at the bottom.

[@matthias8368]

I forgot the Leagues of Votann existed. I guess that is explained by their winrates.

[@julientabulazero103]

I wonder what would be the Drukhari win rate without Archon Skari

[@holdenchambers3986]

Semi-okay. The x-1% is high but its a low play rate army. It also should be noted that it's already started falling from reaper's wager introduction. Im convinced the average 40k player isnt competent enough in the playstyle drukhari does to think about how you play them, so it takes getting blown out for a week or two after rules shift before counter play is caught on to. Edit: Forgot to mention lists now also can't take everytool they need so the chance of hitting a matchup that can be lost from slightly poor dice is high.

[@runeh3022]

"Year of Chaos" they said... :-P

[@JoshuaBlomberg]

Ah, no, see, they made a type. "Year of chaos," not "Year of Chaos." The Chaos factions have been boned, but I don't think I've ever seen so much chaos in their balance efforts.

[@Neolazaro91]

Man, Sisters really are feast or famine. I think we were definitely strong before, some solid detachments, miracle dice was good, units were mostly ok with some really good ones. And pretty much EVERYTHING got nerfed. See you all in 3-4 months, I guess. Back to playing Crusade.

[@HighlandPhoenix]

Enjoying building my Imperialis Fleet list at the moment at least...: Inquisitor (55), Clandestine Operation [CO] (15) - 70 Inquisitoral Agents - 100 Chimera - 70 Rogue Trader Entourage (75), Fleetmaster (20) - 95 (Infiltrate, unit self ability) (Deep Strike, CL unit choice 1) Navy Breachers - 90 Inquisitor - 55 (Infiltrate, CO unit choice 1) Navy Breachers - 90 Voidsmen-at-Arms - 50 (Deep Strike, CL unit choice 2) Voidsmen-at-Arms - 50 (Deep Strike, CL unit choice 3) Navigator (60), Combat Landers [CL] (10) - 70 Voidsmen-at-Arms - 50 Subductor Squad - 85 (Infiltrate, CO unit choice 2) Subductor Squad - 85 (Infiltrate, CO unit choice 3) Death Watch Vets - 200 Watch Master (105) - 105 Rhino - 75 Vindicare Assassin - 110 Eversor Assassin - 110 Freeblade Armiger Warglavie - 140 Freeblade Armiger Warglavie - 140 Freeblade Armiger Warglavie - 140 1980 points. OR, Inquisitor (55), Clandestine Operation [CO] (15) - 70 Inquisitoral Agents - 100 Chimera - 70 Rogue Trader Entourage (75), Fleetmaster (20) - 95 (Infiltrate, unit self ability) (Deep Strike, CL unit choice 1) Navy Breachers - 90 Navigator (60), Combat Landers [CL] (10) - 70 (Infiltrate, CO unit choice 1) Navy Breachers - 90 Voidsmen-at-Arms - 50 (Deep Strike, CL unit choice 2) Voidsmen-at-Arms - 50 (Deep Strike, CL unit choice 3) Voidsmen-at-Arms - 50 Subductor Squad - 85 (Infiltrate, CO unit choice 2) Subductor Squad - 85 (Infiltrate, CO unit choice 3) Death Watch Vets - 200 Watch Master (105) - 105 Rhino - 75 Corvus Blackstar - 180 Vindicare Assassin - 110 Freeblade Armiger Warglavie - 140 Freeblade Armiger Warglavie - 140 Freeblade Armiger Warglavie - 140 1995 points. Just would like some competitive options...

[@RevanR]

No Grey Knights Terminator?

[@HighlandPhoenix]

@@RevanR Couldn't fit them in this one... Wouldn't mind picking up a unit some day though!

[@Jafr0]

I just wish we didn't have to use knights, I should be able to use the army I've collected without bringing in units from a different faction

[@HighlandPhoenix]

@@Jafr0 Agreed! 🙁

[@jeangofett5127]

You have to much inquistor and voidman, not enough vehicules, You need to use immolator and battle sisters, they are cheep and great choices for anti tank and they are sticky objective, draxus is auto include. Watch master is to pricey for what he do. Corvus Blackstar is shit in any situation.

[@ryanbarry5320]

Got that number 10 spot just waiting for the eldar 1 month after The release of the codex.

[@JackDespero]

The codex of Aeldari is amazingly good. As every pro player says "movement wins games" and Aeldari were just gifted everything that anyone would want. The rules are amazing so unless GW really screws it up with the points, they are going to be a top half army for sure, probably among the best if the points are even any good.

[@fateweaver9844]

​@@JackDesperopoints are out. The actual MFM points. Most everything is pointed well although Asurmen is TOO cheap by about 20 pts

[@Beelzebufo_ampinga]

I've felt my Templars being bad in my flgs' crusade, my Emperor's champion and his sword brethren whiffed a shooting phase, a charge, and in the fight back they did 3 damage in total, I immediately bought a chimera and started a guard army😭

[@getjinxed7354]

sister of battle are not just weak they have 0 identity. they literally do t nothing well. they are not durable , they are not horde, they have the lowest dmg in the game game out of agents. the only thing that is worse than their shooting dmg is their melee dmg. they are not fast, they dot not have tools. they are quite literally just bad marines now with bad weapon choices. they are basically in the same boat that admech were in start of edition that yea you could make them okay if you drop their pts by 30% but than you are just in the boat of "yea my armies garbage but i get a lot of garbage!". and the worse part is GW choose to make them that way and is actively choosing to let them be that way. they were a 50-51% win rate army with decently fun rules and gw just said "lets gut their rules so not only are they not good they have no identity and are not even fun to play cus they can do nothing except die".

[@Krachbumm-Ente]

Cope harder. While the nerf to the MD mechanic was too much, all other statements of yours are bollocks. if you fail to win games with SoB that's a you problem

[@JoshuaBlomberg]

@Krachbumm-Ente Man, your two brain cells must have made a lot of smoke trying to write not just one but three coherent sentences. Just know, every idea you have on the matter is wrong and you should re-examine your beliefs before you go off trying to make someone feel bad just because you're an utter heartless prick with no understanding of the state of the faction, or really of the entire game.

[@arn1345]

@Krachbumm-Ente if you got spanked by SoB that's a skill issue. 50 percent win-rate don't lie. You're just bad.

[@Krachbumm-Ente]

@ I don't even know what your statement refers to. Certainly not to my post because that wouldn't make any sense

[@theblackantonio]

Agents are not a faction so... RIP sisters

[@vinnythewebsurfer]

Perception is king so despite the data showing tau not being some meta menace, people that don’t actually know pay attention act like they’re still some problematic faction.

[@ToddGrindle]

Still not nerfed enough, cry harder.

[@Genuine_Monster]

Thousand sons went from 1st place strongest S++ faction to this. ”They massacred my boy” big hopes for a good codex

[@shamurai7]

me looking in my two cases at my fully painted Adepta Sororitas and Imperial Agents armies.. :(

[@jeremiegartner464]

CSM issues: AoS nerf hurt the 2 easier to play detachments. Multiple units unplayable, Fellgor anyone?. Assigning points for units based on a unit making every dark pact every time. Dark pact changes dishing out damage before atks instead of after with zero points changes. Few decent datasheets so point heavy that you either take 3 or Zero. Having One good unit in 1 of the 9 detachments and you nerf them to be unplayable in every other detachment. (AC/DC in cult, Warp talons in raiders, FF in Pactbound.) Im waiting for the points jump for Possessed because of Bile or more likely they nerf bile so high he can only be played in his own detachment. They had to rewrite the rules of soul forge just to include Vashtorr into his own detachment. Dozens of datasheets and you only see a handful of the same units because the rest have been nerfed to not worth the points (raptors got a points nerf and made the only reason to take then in their own detachment unusable.)

[@johan-im3ud]

Im using a knight lancer in my army any ideas for a big buddy next to him?

[@prodoktordank4102]

Not surprised with templars since gw nerved all their main melee units

[@jarrakul]

So the Sisters aren't the worst army in the game, they're just the worst /real/ army in the game. Cool, cool.

[@Dubauabud]

Tau bros... The 3 inch deepstrike was too much and now were the 5th worse... even with 9" +1ap... its over. Its never BEEN more over....

[@AWPtical800]

On the bright side, maybe this will encourage GW to give us a buff. I just hope that buff doesn't come in the form of more points decreases...

[@davidjones4772]

with guard and eldars new codex looking very good and some other fations getting strong grotmas stuff its not going to get any better for tau soon.

[@coldstar2035]

on the brightside, i never used shortened blade so this is a buff for me. but i wont act like this didnt just hurt sunforges really bad. i hate how t'au always get hit so hard by indirect general nerfs. trail shaper redeploy nerf, lone op strat nerf in khp, reinforcement strat in khp, and now 3" deepstrike nerf just backhanding sunforges for no reason.

[@NikolayMIA]

As a deathwatch main player, ork second army and sob third, I have very complex feelings rn… At least SoB looks cool.

[@ochigdor]

My army is Votann, with the backup being sisters. Really just want a wider range for the votann.

[@joshphus]

I play wtc competitions, so this kind of data is not applicable. I hope you will consider this type of rules in the future. Gw way to play is much easier with lots of open space and big line of sight. Btw thank you for your work

[@whitee55]

Pointing units because they could be good in a single detachment is a big reason some armies aren't doing well.

[@frizz2671]

Let the Dark Gods bless our rules someday 😢😔 and my f&@$in’ Lord Discordant

[@Internetbutthurt]

Its amazing how bad disco lord is and GW does nothing, not even drop his points so he is even a consideration

[@liamlyda2116]

How often do balance changes occur? Im a brand new player who just started collecting sisters last week without knowing their current situation tabletop wise. Its not the biggest deal to me, as I really enjoy the models, but when could I possibly expect a balance update to them again?

[@kabriii]

1 every 3-6 months

[@89kicked]

Votann hype has died post grotmas and got worse when they revealed basicly the half to full year and Votann not being on it, an army that only has 13 units 5 of which are chatacters really has limited variety and is a reason many Votann players are moving on. Hopefully we will see a resurgence in a year or so when they finally get to the codex and hopefully some new models.

[@jimduchene]

Overcosted seems to be a chaos staple at GW, whatever the game. Nice to see 40k is still right in the family. 😅

[@rjakiel73]

So some of the coolest factions getting whacked... CSM, Chaos Knights, Ad Mech, LoV, T'au, Thousand Sons... But somehow all the Smurf armies are doing just fine along with the the Aeldari, Nids and Necrons. Anyone else not shocked?

[@HighlandPhoenix]

The Imperial Agent army rule should be like: "Orbital Lance Strike" which is a once per turn weapon which has a high percentage of knocking out a vehicle/armiger a turn... and GW to bring out Adeptus Arbites vehicles such as the Repressor transport and a 'gun-platform' alternative in the box with anti-vehicle/monster weapon(s) on it! Relatively quick fix... And potentially make the Corvus Blackstar have more anti-vehicle/monster output... AND make an Adeptus Arbites 'Garrison' fortification which (like the Hammerfall Bunker should do!) could Deep Strike Turn 1 into your own DZ like a drop pod, again with Anti-vehicle/monster weapon load outs....! Not too much effort GW me thinks!

[@azuth8955]

Honestly just inverting assigned agents would do. Let them borrow some guard tanks, devastatir centurions, etc... no need for orbital strikes or a new model when they have those.

[@HighlandPhoenix]

@@azuth8955 I think I'd rather have new faction specific stuff personally... 😉

[@azuth8955]

@HighlandPhoenix which is fair, but "rod from god" is going to be majorly feels bad for opponents. Give them back access to land raiders like the old inquisitorial faction had for heavy fires, take the navis detachment rule and rename it "mission specialists" as the faction rule to reflect that these are all typically strike forces with a set goal, give navis the infiltrators enhancement as their detachment rule and replace it with a shooting damage buff to match digital weapons. Maybe respec the ordo detachments to have battleline inquisitorial agents. Fluff is still there, they get the AT they need, we don't have to talk GW into making a new model and the faction rule is a decent buff without being feelsbad

[@HighlandPhoenix]

@ LOL, “Rod from God” does sounds Inquisitorial style though… 😅

[@AverageRezeSimp]

look man, it's not that deep. it's just a glorified imperium ally rehash and a narrative section in a trenchcoat

[@otisred7848]

Noticed how chaos knights are here and imperial knights where pretty high on the list of top armies? Both run pretty much armiger spam yet chaos do worse even though they have they better choice of armigers. That's a rules issue. Chaos rules are garbage compared to the feel no pain and rerolls of the imperial knights

[@ricku9487]

I can't think of a better way to evaluate armies rules and playability (Aside from GW holding exhaustive play testing before they print rules and points and such) but I hate how they take what seems like one weekends worth of tournament results and then slam the hammer down armies and make them so that casual players can barely play a game without getting annihilated. While also leaving rules in that make other armies OP.

[@Driz7ziahs]

oh damn it... we're about to enter the OP era of the cycle... so we can expect 11th to be announced for the end of '25/start of '26

[@tellable9425]

As someone who plays multiple of these armies on this list, I can tell you CSM are not anywhere close to that weak. Its just a case of a fairly popular faction, lots of people play them, some of those players are going to be casual. Not everyone has the chops to play melee armies, and not everyone has the collection to play cultist horde or Abaddon shooting castle.

[@MrLealLens]

Ad Mech will NEVER get a break, I would sell them if I didn't love the faction as much

[@runeh3022]

I suspect Chaos Knights are not as much suffering because of changes to their own rules, but rather all the SM player's with Oath of Moment sort of negating much of their whole stat-check playstyle.

[@avatarpan]

Miracle dice cut by 2/3ds, not 1/2.

[@concrescience3642]

as an imperial agents, kroot hunting pack, penitent host player if feel i win more than i lose and people clamour to have games with me. just LFGS games, they all have interesting play and knock back mid table lists that are bringing conventional anti-meta tools.

[@Yannis1a]

Imperial Agents should not be a thing, let’s say you want to play the different Inquisitorial Ordos, Just have a Inquisitor as Warlord of the corespondent Chamber Militant, so Sisters of Battle army lead by and Inquisitor is an Ordo Hereticus army And have the other Imperial Agents (Assassins, Voidfearer, or Arbites) are the Imperial equivalent to Eldar Corsair, but are included in the Imperial Guards codex, like their were unique Regiments