Nobody Knows What "Anime" is Anymore.

[@GigiMurakami]

12:04 This is true. My Japanese husband was struggling to tell about an anime he saw. In his words: “ it’s one of the most popular anime out there. It’s an anime everyone knows-you definitely know it”. He was literally talking about The Simpsons 😂

[@IsaiahSenku]

😂😂😂

[@BradmyrEdits]

As far as Japanese are concerned, it's all anime. 😊

[@AchakBrooks]

I kind of found that depending on the person I will hear "animation" over "anime" more often when "foriegn" seems to be on their mind. Over a decade animatiing in Japan, lots of social introductions so the situation came up a lot. PS: The majority of ineractions people said anime.

[@AchakBrooks]

Hey also, nice work!

[@Gonbatfire]

well It *is* animated on japan

[@faiyazhusain5912]

Joey actually does have a good point because if the Scott Pilgrim Anime is not allowed for the sole reason that it's based on an American IP then by that logic why is Cyberpunk Edgerunners, Batman: Gotham Knight and Iron Man: Rise of the Technovore shouldn't be listed on MAL either.

[@nujevad28]

But those shows were produced by the studios that made them.

[@volcanicviper5984]

@@nujevad28 theyre western ips, owned by western companies

[@Snzn_7]

@@nujevad28 No since the 2 Batman and animatrix anime is produced by WB, and Marvel produced all the Marvel anime. Cyberpunk Edgerunners and Altered Carbon resleeved is produced by Netflix, Blade Runner Lotus is produced by western companies. Star Wars Visions by Disney. Basically Soctt Pilgrim is the same as these bunch yet only Scott Pilgrim did not made it MAL"s database

[@Gabrielfrota]

time to put Transformers and thundercats (original and remake) on MAL lol

[@aikentang]

​@@Gabrielfrota you joke, but transformer has its own japanese universe

[@Nstromzz]

Scariest part of this video is the fact that Joey is actually watching anime again.

[@lillith7257]

He said he was watching Pluto in a previous vid

[@haru2966]

i guess those Attack on Titan simps already exhausted their relevancy.

[@viviangarcia5696]

We can't force someone to watch something if there isn't anything that interests them, and as we get older, our tastes can change. We can't always tolerate content the way we used to, so we just let it happen naturally. Besides, we all eventually return when something catches our eye, so don't ruin it. they might have degraded to just casual fans or occasional viewers (retired/ex) due to life and aging, but that's not a bad thing. That doesn't make them fakes or any less of an anime fan.

[@606aichan7O7]

​@@viviangarcia5696 true, but OP probably isn't saying it in a serious way + I think OP was probably more going off the 'Manga Man' joke that's been on this channel for ages

[@Re1z3r]

​@@viviangarcia5696why so serious, chill out

[@noahpauley]

What’s interesting is that while the director listed on the Japanese staff list isn’t Japanese, he’s been living in Japan for over a decade and has been in the industry almost the same amount of time. He also worked on Ping Pong the Animation.

[@Rumination6913]

Couldn't get more anime than that

[@Remedy462]

Literally counts, not even debatable.

[@achill_cf9082]

we love the head of digatal animation at saru

[@AliceLanes]

If you live and work in japan for decade as a permanent resident, you count as japanese.

[@sircalvin]

to me it almost seems like a racism/fetishization at this point. legally he is japanese, hes a founding member of a japanese animation studio, he speak japanese, etc the only thing "not japanese" about him is his skin color

[@reball4337]

Would like to mention that while the Director (Abel Góngora) was not born in Japan he has been living there and working in the industry for a decade plus. He has worked on shows like Ping Pong and Devilman Crybaby and is currently the lead digital artist at Science SARU.

[@Jesus_Zendejas]

There are so many foreign directors working Hollywood movies, does that make it foreign flicks? Nah stiller 'merican movies. I always go by the barometer by looking at the production company. In this case I would look at as a co-production as in its both a Japanese and American show

[@Elijah.]

it should be notes that while Abel Góngora is not Japanese, he's still a Science SARU employee. Which explains why he is listed under 'Japanese Staff' that should still fulfil the criteria of Japanese creators in key positions.

[@V2ULTRAKill]

Jes a founding member of science saru even Hes a core member of the japanese animation industry

[@mystomachhurts56]

Same with Eunyoung Choi, she's South Korean but also the CEO of Science SARU after Masaaki Yuasa stepped down

[@SimonGreen85]

Exactly this. He is anime through and through

[@Bionicleforever]

yea its like calling something not western because its not created by a white dude lol. If he's lived there for decades and works for japanese studio, its a japanese

[@YTHandlesBlow]

The Canadian Cartoon that was a collaboration with a Nelvana and a Japanese studio Called Spider Riders is counted as mecha on MAL lol.

[@codytoeung5089]

I feel the scarier thing to think about are people who think this anime is solely an adaptation of the live action movie and don’t even know the comic even exists, and might write it off for that reason

[@kiranikib42]

Honestly me my mom and father thought it was but we LOVE Scott pilgrim so much we didn’t mind until the MATHEW PATEL episode(which we all love he got more screen time) then we were like “oh this is gonna be different” and we loved it

[@Donovarkhallum]

I don't see why, the Movie is beloved but maybe expectations v reality

[@dpolaristar4634]

Comic fans are mixed on it as well, don't strawman

[@omnitiontpictures]

​@@Donovarkhallumdid you watch the movie?

[@Donovarkhallum]

@@omnitiontpictures yes

[@93djkardiak]

Wasn’t Panty and Stocking made to look and feel like an American cartoon and aimed at western audiences? Pretty sure it’s on MAL

[@thomasffrench3639]

And so were the foundational anime in the 60s and 70s.

[@connorstern8413]

@@thomasffrench3639 back in the 50s and 60s everything looked like a western cartoon, to be fair. everyone copied walt disney and so on.

[@ChibiQilin]

Panty and Stocking had anime aspects too, but it definitely was trying to resemble a cartoon in overall style. So it's definitely an anime, but you could argue it's also a cartoon, or cartoon style. The Scott Pilgrim Takes Off cartoon does not try to be an anime in any way. It tries to depict itself in a similar art style and storytelling style as the comics. The few japanese-like elements it has are very western caricatures of what Japan is like, resembling the stereotypes about japan found in comics and games, rather than resembling manga and anime. Your comparison and example would work if Scott Pilgrim tried to feel like a Japanese anime, but it doesn't.

[@SK91NO]

@@ChibiQilin The art style of Scott Pilgrim takes off is not a 1:1 replication of the comics, it's tweaked to resemble anime in many ways, like colouring, features, and shading

[@chocolate2739]

No, it was aimed to the Japanese market but it didn't do well in Japan because the Japanese didn't vibe with the western styled humor and feel. It was made for the Japanese market but the western market enjoyed it more.

[@neko3780]

Along with all staff for Scott Pilgam Takes Off, it had it's Japanese dub relased at the same time, it wasn't an after thought, like some pure western show that's imported after it's finished.

[@pablocasas5906]

To be fair, Brian Lee O'Malley confirmed that the English track was recorded first and, like many other Netflix productions in general, it was then dubbed into multiple languages, including Japanese, for its global distribution Sidenote: I like that, just like the English version, the Latin American Spanish, French and Italian dubs managed to bring back the live-action movie's cast. I think the Japanese dub has a different voice cast from the movie's, though Scott seiyuu, Hiro Shimono, has dubbed Michael Cera in some movies

[@BigJMC]

What’s interesting is that Anime is adopted by the english language as “Animation from Japan”, whereas Anime in Japan means all animation in general. So they’re technically two different words with different specific meanings depending on what language is being used.

[@lightishredgummi]

I mean, it makes sense. it's just using a specific countries word for a general thing to refer to THEIR version of it. the Japanese word for animation, for those who don't speak Japanese, refers to Japanese animation. their version of the term refers to their version of the thing if it's not already your own word for the thing. we've done the same for manga and manhwa, and I believe lots of foods.

[@killa4sho313]

It’s called semantic change

[@vladprus4019]

Example of something different: "pierogi" in English means Polish type of dumplings. The word "pierogi" means "dumplings" in general. Same with "kiełbasa", which in Polish means just "sausage", while in English means Polish sausage.

[@Lhorez]

@@killa4sho313 Aww come on. Now you're just arguing sematics... 😝

[@killa4sho313]

I'm assuming this is a joke right? Sorry I can't tell.@@Lhorez

[@toroplz4225]

Cyberpunk Edgerunners was made with source material created by an american tabletop game creator, adapted from the videogame made by a Polish developer, with western target audiences in mind. And it won Anime of the Year. Yeah MAL's criteria is bullshit

[@Phobos11]

Anime of the Year by Crunchyroll, an American company? Hmmm...

[@philo2189]

You completely glossed over the fact that it's made by a Japanese anime company lol

[@JeffHikari]

@@Phobos11No, by Studio TRIGGER, a Japanese studio.

[@toroplz4225]

@@philo2189 just like MAL glossed over the fact that Scott Pilgrim Takes Off it's made by a Japanese anime studio. I omitted that detail intentionally (because it's the most obvious fact)

[@toroplz4225]

@@Phobos11 Japanese-American. Crunchyroll is a joint company owned by Aniplex and Sony Pictures

[@Nordicsz]

Bro, Moomin was made for the European market by Japan, for Scandinavia to be precise. Finnish Producer, Dutch production company. It is on MAL. Also Alfred J. Kwak was made by Dutch producer, script was also Dutch, production company was Dutch, animation was Japanese. Mad for the Netherlands, based on a book by a Dutch author. It is on MAL.

[@beautyoffailure9904]

Alps no Shoujo Heidi, Nils no Fushigi na Tabi, Mitsubachi Maya no Bouken. German and Japanese co-productions (in case of Nils Austrian and Japanese) from the 70s and 80s. The production staff was almost entirely japanese, but there is the same air of ambiguity about these series in regards to the western definition of the word anime.

[@Nordicsz]

@@beautyoffailure9904 Yeah I am familiar with all of these as a 90s kid. I am not sure what MAL is smoking. To be clear about the Moomin show, it is the 90s show, which is the first one the author actually approved of. Guess Japan was doing some sort of Chinese stuff until then and just taking copyrighted works and using them, since there was no internet and hard to get news. Also the show had a Finnish producer, Dutch production company and Japanese animation.

[@JLCL01]

@@Nordicsz where did you get your info on the Moomin creator? IIRC there was an adaptation from the 70s that was legally approved but there were creative aspects the creator didn't like. It deff' was not like how you'd see Chinese companies do it (e.g. the Gumball clone, "Chinese Super Mario Galaxy").

[@Nordicsz]

@@JLCL01 Wikipedia says she never approved of the earlier adaptations and it is why it was never translated outside of Japan and is currently not available in any form since the 90s series in which she put down work in herself. So I don't see that as approved like you say.

[@rice_frying_shrimp]

Don’t tell em that or they’ll come after the Moomins next 😶

[@Parcolai]

Anne of Green Gables, Heidi, Daddy-Long-Legs, all of the anime in the World Masterpiece Theater series had non-Japanese source material. Heidi became a cultural icon in Japan.

[@verskarton]

Then it got stolen by the Belgiums and turned in a CGI cartoon.

[@neyou6940]

​@@verskartonJapan stole It first

[@pablocasas5906]

The Heidi anime adaption became a global phenomenon in the 70s and 80s, except for the U.S. apparently. Not to mention it was one of the first major projects directed by Hayao Miyazaki and Isao Takahata. I think even Gundam's creator, Yoshiyuki Tomino, was involved in Heidi

[@CoracaoAcidental98]

Isn't Lupin based on a manga that was based on French novels also?

[@Parcolai]

@@CoracaoAcidental98 I don't know if any of the stories relate to the book.

[@WhimCh]

Deltora Quest (a western book series by an Australian author that was very popular in the US when I was growing up) got an anime adaptation by OLM, and Myanimelist has had no problem listing it as an anime since 2007. All the details of the Scott Pilgrim anime point to it being an anime, not even sure why it's in question.

[@73a73]

So someone actually knows the Deltora Quest anime exists…

[@lilpainteroftales4386]

You just reminded me that I forgot to finish the book and the anime.😅

[@lancecereal3673]

Man thanks for reminding me of one of my favorite childhood book series, would binge all the ep on youtube

[@AraumC]

Deltora is legit a masterpiece

[@qwmx]

The illustratior visited my school.

[@Saphirakii]

i was in Japan for a school program this summer and spoke to some japanese uni students. we talked about music and movies. I asked if they had seen the newest Across the Spiderverse movie, and this girl said "Oh i don't really like anime besides Ghibli stuff. I prefer live action movies"

[@Yunglex313]

As an older head, this kind of aligns with my thoughts on the subject. Originally, the Japan use of the term anime mostly just refers to animated anything in general for a lot of people, I would imagine. It was after the western expansion of anime that we blew up the term to make it sound unique from western cartoons, which later explode into brand of anime we see it as now.

[@justanotherweirdo11]

Yeah Japanese people consider all animation anime. I also want to mention cause it's cool the Japanese dub of Spiderverse movies have their own Japanese songs for the credits. TK made a song for the Into the spiderverse and LiSA did for Across the Spiderverse.

[@palookadventures5694]

Now I'm way more curious about what Japan uni students are watching as a Canadian college-goer.

[@felonyx5123]

​@@justanotherweirdo11 More accurate to say that anime is the Japanese word for all animation. To accurately translate the English sentence "what's your favorite anime" into Japanese, you'd have to ask "what's your favorite Japanese anime." Which sounds silly and redundant but that's how loanwords go sometimes. Though if you asked someone in Japan what the distinction is between Japanese animation and animation from elsewhere is, and how important that distinction is to them, you'd probably get a very different answer than if you asked a western anime fan.

[@justanotherweirdo11]

@@felonyx5123 You're just saying the same thing. Going backwards the English word for anime is animation.

[@blankthoughttv]

This just solidifies that King of The Hill is in fact the greatest anime of all time.

[@banquetoftheleviathan1404]

cory in the house

[@The_Blue_Otaku]

​@@banquetoftheleviathan1404 airplane construction videos from the 80s

[@TheKaiTetley]

Futurama is King

[@robkoper841]

"Ah Tell Ya HWUT!"

[@Glatier]

The Boondocks

[@Lory18100]

Abel Góngora is Spanish but he's been working with yuasa since Ping Pong the animation, he is included in the Japanese staff because he lives in Japan and is recognized for his work in multiple Japanese productions. He is practically Japanese and as so ann includes him in the Japanese staff

[@eatdaaaa9984]

The Japanese people working at Science Saru call this an anime. It's so weird how western people are the only ones crusading on what is and isn't anime when Japanese people literally will call Spongebob an anime or some shit. MAL mods are smoking that pack and they always have.

[@BlueBerry2283]

Exactly! “Anime” as “animation from Japan” is a non-Japanese definition. In Japan anime just means cartoon/animated-something. In fact one of my japanese friends was really confused as to why we differentiate between the two. So in the end, I stopped caring

[@GokuTheSuperSaiyan1]

​​@@BlueBerry2283if we called SpongeBob or Tom and Jerry anime, the word "anime" would lose its (useful) meaning. I would rather the word anime mean something which is more intuitive and makes sense, such as animation from Japan. Character design and style is also a good way to look at it as well

[@animechic420]

I don’t understand why anime fans in the West insist on labeling anything that looks even remotely like a Japanese anime. There’s Japanese anime and American cartoons.

[@Aluran]

very fucking wierd i meanit has japanese dub and everything

[@dydx_]

It's primarily an art style difference, and one that only truly exists for the most illiterate of people. A show is a show at the end of the day and people who only consume "anime" because it's "anime" (whatever the fuck that means to them) are fucking r*. @@BlueBerry2283

[@Lallander]

Abel Góngora has lived in Japan for quite some time. Works for and was one of the first employees of Science SARU. And has worked on a number of notable projects including Ping Pong the Animation. He should definitely count as a Japanese industry talent.

[@pablocasas5906]

Heck, the 1066th episode of One Piece was directed by an American, Henry Thurlow. Or how can we forget about Korean-American animator Peter Chung? He created Æon Flux and has worked in the animation industry since the 80s for Disney, Nickelodeon and Cartoon Network, and in the late 90s he worked in Japan where he directed the anime Alexander Senki/Reign: The Conqueror, and some years later he directed some segment in The Animatrix

[@SuddenReal]

"It is created by professional staff in Japan for the Japanese market." Well, that's a fail right there from the start, since a lot of anime in the late eighties and early nineties were commisioned by France for the French market. In fact, up until that point, the word Manga was used for both the comic and the cartoon. The word Anime is derived from the French word "Dessin Animés".

[@Gabrielfrota]

If we ignore that simple logic things from the 80´s like transformers and thundercats are anime, like people really are breaking their their back to try to make scott pilgrim an anime, if we ignore the "for japanese market" side of the rule even a movie from scooby doo (forgot the name too long ago) should be anime since in the credits almost all the names for the animation are japanese...

[@marocat4749]

Black laggonn isnt anime? Pretty sure it was developed for the international market, (as did bebop i suspect) , and both would not be anime because they are primary international.

[@Gabrielfrota]

@@marocat4749 Back Lagoon is based on a manga of the same name published with the japanese public in mind, just having inspiration in western media doesn´t mean that the anime was made with the west in mind.

[@pablocasas5906]

What about the anime Sherlock Hound? It was produced by the Italian broadcast company RAI and the series composition was done by Hayao Miyazaki, who also directed the first 5 episodes

[@GrassFudge7]

As long as its produced by a Japanese studio then i think of it as anime. I don't use the style definition because there are anime with vastly different styles that are all still called anime

[@BBBrrrr]

I kinda think of it in the opposite way, since in some way it's the styles, writing, and clichés that keep me coming and those could be replicated elsewhere.

[@V2ULTRAKill]

​@@BBBrrrrcounterpoint Panty and stocking Kaiba Ping pong Luluco Eizouken Devilman Crybaby None of these follow traditional anime style

[@nobafan7515]

The way i see anime is that its made with japanese cultural influences, which is why unless american and japanese studios are forced to be as strict possible in adapting a preexisting story that their cultures will have their own takes on story telling. I believe it is those cultural differences (consumerism included) that separate what we call anime to cartoons.

[@philo2189]

​@@V2ULTRAKillping pong, kaiba, eizuken, and devilman all look like anime.

[@V2ULTRAKill]

@@philo2189 no, no they dont You think that because your brain is pre compartmentalizing them Kaiba especially looks more like 60s american cartoons than it does anime

[@shreddedcheese6395]

Been of a fan of yours since 2014 your playthrough/gameplay times and love how you have changed though the years. Keep up the hard work!

[@izakiko]

I’ve been a fan since 2016, it’s so nice to see him grow up 🥹

[@tootthpick]

scott pilgirm is very much an anime. It's not even just because im a dedicated scott pilgrim fan. Science saru is a anime company. The show has anime references. The intro has your average anime opening, sung in Japanese by a Japanese band. The style is a mix of traditional anime and the comic. And hell, a Japanese music video is featured in one of the episodes !!!

[@rhinuu045]

facts

[@sirmiluch6856]

Yeah, sure, no.

[@oblivi8games808]

@@sirmiluch6856 Literally the only argument you could make that it isn't anime is that it's based on a western IP, which plenty of other anime including cyberpunk edgerunners are as well. It was produced and animated by a Japanese studio, staffed with Japanese talents. Every single episode director for the series was Japanese, most of the people who worked on the show were Japanese, and while Abel is not ethnically Japanese, he's been considered Japanese industry talent for a long time, with him being one of the earliest employees at science SARU.

[@josephbliss1157]

This is very interesting because many, many years ago I went to an Indiegogo convention and asked you alongside Akiderest and Gaijin Goomba what the difference between an Anime and a standard western cartoon is, and you all said that what made Anime distinct was its characters. And, I sort of agreed with that answer, but it wasn't as concrete of a definition as what I wanted, but then again Anime (as a term in the west), as you've pointed out, has become a super fluid word. The thing is, I think western audiences want to capture the feeling most Japanese Animations have when it comes their stories and characters that make it distinct from traditional western cartoons, but the problem with that is that modern western cartoons have been taking inspiration from Animations in Japan and incorporating that into their stories and the like, so the uniqueness that traditional Anime had which sort of could be answered through that panel I talked about earlier isn't really centered in Japanese cartoons as it once had been - its been diluted across the world. And even then, there are examples of Japanese cartoons that take a lot of inspiration from Western animation which dilutes this perceived unique even before western cartoons started taking inspiration from Japan- sort of like with Panty and Stocking. So, what I guess I'm trying to say is that there sort of used to be this sort of uniques about Japanese cartoons in the past, but whatever that was wasn't necessarily even always there to begin with, and whatever it is has been incorporated into the global scene so much that categorizing shows and the like off of whether they have this thing or not is no longer even useful since its sort of everywhere now.

[@thomasffrench3639]

What do you mean by “character?” Are you referring to the fact that the characters have depth, or that they use Japanese archetypes?

[@josephbliss1157]

More that character's have depth@@thomasffrench3639

[@Matrix2Strata017]

It doesn't need to be that deep though and that's likely why they answered the way they did when you went to that convention. I think what you are looking for is the difference in the storytelling aspect. Anime is just animation, a cartoon is also animation. As for why it's anime, I'm inclined to believe that over time, society eventually finds ways to shorten things up instead of spewing a mouthful of words. An example would be Royal English speech in comparison to Modern American English. If that is too much to research, then I can suggest the usage of contractions, which is basically a shortening of words. Example, don't = do not, aren't = are not, he's, she's, etc.. (which leads back to shortening of animation to anime). Japanese language also shortens things as well, a popular one is the word "Konnichiwa" (which has changed value over the years). It comes from the greeting phrase, “Konnichi wa gokigen ikaga desu ka?”, but that's too much a mouthful to say. As far as storytelling, which I think is what you meant to ask, all stories can be inspired from something else and yet transformed into something albeit slightly different to fit what's desired at whatever given period. This should be sufficient enough for your confusion of globalization of "animation" being "diluted" across the world. Now, we bring up the question from [thomasffrench3639] which explores more into your question(?) or their answer. Keep in mind that it should be known that Japanese archetypes as well as tropes are heavily recycled, perhaps a little bit way too much, so he presents a fair question. As for uniqueness, it's not too critical to think about as, again, all stories would be inspired; and it may be better to think of it as you're simply being more exposed to something. Instead, it is more important whether or not the animation is relatable and relevant.

[@whome9842]

Fun fact, in Japan they use the term "cartoon" (カートゥーン ) as a term for the stylized western animation like Garfield, Powerpuff Girls, Adventure Time, Tom & Jerry, etc. Just like how west uses "anime" for Japanese animation.

[@TheLeoGBA]

I love that

[@OMNIhydra1]

Anime is a style. A style can be produced anywhere by anyone. If it looks like anime, uses techniques popular among anime productions, structures itself like other anime, indulges in animes tropes and established shorthand, and is clearly working within the parameters of what we understand anime to be, it's anime. Calling AtLA not an anime despite everything about it, just feels like we're adding a nonsense distinction for no reason other than people still not being comfortable calling cartoons not produced specifically in Japan anime for some indecipherable reason. A surrealist painting made on Mars is still a surrealist painting. Geography and the nationality of the creator simply has no bearing whatsoever on the style and techniques used in its creation. My definition of anime is really pretty simple. Like with pornography, I know it when I see it. Scott Pilgrim started its life as a manga, and it just got its anime adaptation. It just didn't originate in Japan.

[@Amgarrak]

And there are just plenty more anime that are anime but are not like Jojo or Dragonball or Deathnote, where their styles breaks the mold. At the end of the day: anime = animation = cartoon

[@LoopyDreamz775]

I guess by this logic the boondocks is a anime?

[@jonathansl109]

​@@LoopyDreamz775 boondocks originated as a satirical comic strip and was adapted as a satirical cartoon, if I'm not mistaken...

[@Sharkofspace]

It's a categorization issue. The problem is that it's very hard to categorize when nobody can agree on a definition. Furthermore, every possible definition comes with it's own unique list of problems.

[@alihorda]

Bigger problem is that people overcomplicate it. Anime in Japanese is literally just animation. Western cartoons are also anime by Japanese definition. But western views anime by a certain style. Elitists only think that anime must be produced in Japan (even tho most are outsourced in reality)

[@famimame]

​@alihorda exactly, most anime are outsource to 3rd world country because of the cheap labour anyway

[@jaredc5169]

cartoons made in japan are anime, it's really that simple.

[@roguescorner9042]

@@alihordaExactly. I’ve defended before that “anime” as a western term refers more to a certain style of animation, and was immediately dismissed by people saying that anime only means “any kind of a animation that comes from Japan.” But again, we all subconsciously assign the anime term to a certain style. It’s why there’s so many people that call Avatar an anime even though it’s western. And I’m sure there are Japanese animations that look more like typical western cartoons than anime.

[@alihorda]

@@roguescorner9042 to be perfectly precise, any animation is anime, Japanese just call them anime. But for most of us in the west anime means a certain style. Personally I don't care about country of origin due of international teams and outsourcing.

[@phachaves]

This whole anime or not discussion reminds me of the interview Yoshi P (the director for Final Fantasy XIV and producer for FFXVI) gave where he mentions he’s unhappy with people calling FFXVI a JRPG because he sees it as a derogatory term that basically segregates RPGs made in Japan from “real RPG”. Turns out that even if people use JRPG as a form of endearing term, some developers, like Yoshi P, end up feeling like their product is considered “lesser” just because of it’s country of origin. And that’s just some food for thought.

[@RandomThumbVids]

1:55 The forum post was made in 2012 as it says at the top. 2007 refers to when the user joined the site.

[@MiguelAe955]

Nah but you are in my head Joey wtf. I literally just finished the show and was going to mark it as watched in MAL and then I realized it wasn't on the site. Checked the forums to see if anybody had any reason why and quickly opened youtube and saw this video.

[@ShadowOfMassDestruction]

Joey watches Anime the right way. Enjoying shows you want to watch instead of subjecting yourself to trash just to keep up.

[@DrCrazyEvil]

Why me thinking of mother's basement when you mentioned that part. Although love his content too

[@Donovarkhallum]

​@@DrCrazyEvil lmao mothers basement is a twat

[@99sonder]

Joey watches Anime the right way. He doesn't

[@zap7737]

........what lol

[@TheGamingTeam101Tgt101]

he dosent even watch msot of the good shows lmao

[@AlexKlindt]

I mean, seeing as we're borrowing the shorthand Japanese term for animation, seems pretty reasonable to say that in the context of the west, "anime" refers to Japanese animation. I think that there's room for the argument that stuff produced with the Japanese market in mind can also be a point of distinction because the way the term is applied is, as you said, fluid and very much based on vibes. For example, if a western media company contracted a Japanese studio to do exclusively the animation for a project that's target demographic is the western market, I can see (and maybe even agree) with the notion of disqualifying it from the term because the vibes are wrong. However, especially in the current age, I think the notion that "the source material isn't Japanese" is a bad metric to disqualify by because everything is inspired by everything with current access to information and this holds true even if a high ranking staff member or two isn't Japanese.

[@Spojo1]

I think it's so bizarre that mal added Korean and Chinese animation to their database but refuse to add western shows. Castlevania is another show that should be on mal. Also Super Crooks is on mal and matches the qualifications with Scott Pilgrim. They are inconsistent with their enforcement.

[@AkaSora96]

Castlevania doesn't check all their criteria to be added to their database however Scott Pilgrim technically does so it should 100% be on their database

[@Spojo1]

@@AkaSora96 I know. But my point is if they add Chinese and Korean shows they should also add western shows.

[@bladeneo7420]

​@@AkaSora96see I disagree. Well yes it wasn't made by a Japanese company or studio, but it's based off of a Japanese video game made by a Japanese studio. How can a western IP like Halo be on there and that's based off of a video game. Western video game owned by western company that has never really made a dent in the Japanese market that it was not meant for the Japanese market. It was meant for everyone else. How many people in Japan have an Xbox? How many people in Japan? Have heard of halo but a anime that was made by a western studio based off of a Japanese video game made by Japanese video game maker is not on there.

[@AkaSora96]

@@bladeneo7420 I'm not the one making the rules in their website, it doesn't seem to be about IP, if it's animated by a Japanese, Chinese, Korean studio, they allow it, if not they don't, which is why it is kind of hypocritical that they don't allow Scott Pilgrim on their database

[@AkaSora96]

@@Spojo1 I disagree if they add western shows like Castlevania then they would have to add shows like Spongebob which would make MAL an overall worse platform, I also would rather not have Chinese and Korean animation on it but oh well

[@JoshuaLTDS]

I think they key point for Scott Pilgrim is that it's for western audience. The guideline said not only the country of origin, but the target audience as well, japanese animation for japanese audience, same applying to chinese and korean animations. But that also was a recent addition. Not long ago there was no manhwa on their database. Still, that's hard to define now that it's pretty much a global market.

[@KingBatch07]

then edgerunners isnt anime

[@GAMIE64]

Japan ese dub came out at the same time, and was not an afterthought

[@sirmiluch6856]

@@GAMIE64Original language is English in Scott. Japanese is a dub. Stop being delusional. This cartoon is not an anime.

[@pablocasas5906]

@@sirmiluch6856 I don't think just because Scott Pilgrim Takes Off was recored first into English and then dubbed into other languages, including Japanese, invalidates its anime status. That's like saying that the recent Final Fantasy XVI isn't a Japanese videogame because its script and voice acting were written and recored in English first and then it was dubbed into Japanese and other languages

[@sirmiluch6856]

@@pablocasas5906 actually, FFVI script was written in Japanese first, then translated to English and it happened that English voices were recorded first.

[@badslorp]

why does everyone ignore the part that says "intended for a japanese audience" ??? like idc if you think its an anime or not, but the MAL description isnt hypocritical. scott pilgram is mostly for a western audience.

[@l4ndst4nder]

It’s worth noting that the Director wasn’t a Hollywood guy bossing the Science Saru staff around. Abel Góngora has been with Science Saru since nearly the beginning. Additionally it appears he has lived in Japan for at least 10 years. So while not Japanese, I would consider him part of the Japan staff.

[@TrueAmericanReject]

“Hey look, it’s a ladder!” “That is a step-ladder.” “What’s the difference?”

[@Guciom]

I have no idea what argument are you trying to point out.

[@nujevad28]

It matters if you have a step ladder website and someone wants you to include a regular ladder in it.

[@TrueAmericanReject]

@@Guciom just riffing on the the anime or not subject using a paraphrase of the ladder debate from the Ace Attorney franchise.

[@MysticTech]

@@nujevad28not really, they both fall under the category of ladders. if i went to a ladder website, i would not be shocked to find step-ladders, as they are a type of ladder.

[@zenomylo1139]

The thing with the word anime is that its meaning is going to be different person to person. I think a good example of this would be tea. If you ask somebody from the UK what tea is they probably will think about black tea while if you ask somebody somewhere else in the world they might think of herbal tea or something else. I personally use the word anime to refer to anything that follows the basic style of japanese animation whether it was made by a japanese studio or not while anything else i will refer to as an animated show or movie because that is what the word anime is commonly associated with.

[@sirmiluch6856]

Anime in the west = animation done 100% by Japanese people for Japanese audience. End of the topic.

[@Blah2000Blah]

I think I normally just define anime as Japanese animation and I put the country of origin + anime for anything that's clearly anime-inspired in production and style.

[@MrTmb64]

I mean, it's made in japan by science saru right ? So yeah, it's anime.

[@jeffjones1638]

Scott Pilgrim has an opening in Japanese, that is enough for me lol

[@one_two_three_for_five]

i think it's anime :D edit: right when i was gonna go to MAL and add scott pilgrim it plays the part where they say the wont include it haha

[@ParadiseDB7]

I do understand the "for a Japanese market" point, because a lot of Western media outsources animation to Korea and Japan without it necessarily being for Japan. Like how Madhouse animated the old Scooby-Doo movies but were never released in Japan (though neither was Yu-Gi-Oh the Movie or Yu-Gi-Oh Capsule Monsters and they're both on there). For example, do you consider Legend of Korra as anime? Season 2 was animated in Japan by Studio Perriot after all. I guess maybe Scott Pilgrim having an American staff and writers was enough to disqualify it. Even if the animation is Japanese the core members are not and it was not directly created for the Japanese market.

[@manakajunpei9007]

Josee, the tiger and the fish came from a french book of the 80s, this is why one of the plot-twist is so cliché. Cyberpunk edgerunners is another example. However we pick the words anime and manga into our dictionary as "that sorta thing from japan" and IMO that's the main point. This is why that show should be counted as anime.

[@seleviathan]

I 100% consider it an Anime. Just because its an American property if it was developed in someway by Japanese animators then it becomes an Anime. Hell even the voice acting syncs up better watching in Japanese than in English

[@jerotoro2021]

The difference between English "anime" and Japanese "anime" reminds me of the disconnect between English "American" and Spanish "americano". They sound like the same word, but they have completely different meanings in their respective languages. Neither one has any obligation to change the meaning of their word just because there is disagreement. English anime means any animation from Japan, fairly simple definition. If you define it any further, you'd get into subcategories of anime relating to art style, themes, etc.

[@Andres-tn8oo]

fr

[@grRossi]

I think its more about the culture. Manga and anime have a long history in Japan, so a lot of tropes, as well as japanese culture can be seen in them. Even if a show is animated in japan, if the story, script and dialog is created by a foreigner it wont really feel like an anime.

[@tomekkubiczek9205]

Exactly. And this cartoon is made by westerners. All most important decisive people are westerners. Every work of art is centered around culture where it was created. Westerners will never make an anime no matter how they try because they aren't from Japanese cultural circle.

[@NCR_]

100% to this comment and the above reply. There's really nothing more to it. I remember someone got mad at me for saying that AtLA was a cartoon not an anime.. they got upset and said I was being pretentious implying it wasn't "good enough" to be an anime. I found it really weird how they got so defensive but I don't know maybe there's some sort of connotation with the word cartoon now. Similar to how not too long ago I would never think of saying I like anime cause that's an immediate way to get looked at weirdly and judged. On a different note this comment has made me want to go rewatch some of my fav episodes in AtLA....

[@Assassinio66]

Interesting that they didn’t have the same issue with Edgerunners, which was co produced with CD Projekt and obviously not only intended for Japanese market

[@KumaAdventure]

In Japan anime just means animation. You can ask someone in Tokyo what their favorite anime is and you might get answers like "Lilo and Stitch".

[@Fuwa_san]

Vise Versa. If you show an anime to random Americans on the street that know nothing about anime, you might hear they say it's a cartoon. Better off as hardcore fans at Comiket in Japan.👀

[@killa4sho313]

In English anime means animation that comes from Japan. It’s called semantic change.

[@sirmiluch6856]

It doesn't matter. You only speak English right? And you don't know that many words have completely different meaning in other countries and regions? Anime in the west = animation done 100% by Japanese people for Japanese audience. End of the topic.

[@KumaAdventure]

I am talking about what the word means in Japan. @@sirmiluch6856

[@Daniel_Rodrigues_89]

@@sirmiluch6856 Far from "end of the topic". Who gave those definitions? You? Same shit, bro. Anime is just a japanese word for animation. Period.

[@finalfantasymad]

If this Scott pilgrim show isn't included then Cyberpunk shouldn't and also should give back its award for best anime last year. Both made by Japanese studios using western IP and properties. Japanese people can't enjoy and have a western IP cater to them. Why would a subsection of people over there like western culture; that's impossible /s

[@nujevad28]

Cyberpunk was produced by the anime studio. They made most of the story and designed the characters too. Scott Pilgrim just hired the studio to animate it.

[@finalfantasymad]

​@@nujevad28 So Eunyoung Choi (Executive Producer) Science SARU's CEO and co-founder & Abel Góngora (Director) have absolutely no say over the direction of the show whatsoever? Are they the show leads; no, I will concede that but they are in executive/lead roles in the shows creation. Are they Japanese themselves, no. But they have both lived in the country for years one literally helped found the animation studio and the other has been an animator in Japan for a decade and more recently a director at the studio. Cyberpunk fyi was oversaw by CDProjekt Red and its only executive producer for the whole show was Rafal Jaki (who helped write both it and the Witcher Manga) who at the time worked for CDPR. Saya Elder (Also CDPR) was also a producer on all 10 episodes and Satoru Homma whom whilst Japanese is actually CDPRs Japanese Localisation lead/manager.

[@nujevad28]

@@finalfantasymad The characters and general story was already made before the show was even handed to the studio, and she wasn't even a major producer, unlike Trigger who pretty much made everything for Cyberpunk.

[@marocat4749]

with withcher berst polish franchise :P

[@sirmiluch6856]

Lol. 2 completely different cases. Cyberpunk IS anime. Scott not.

[@Venom.02]

Anime it’s a style and depending the region your from going be called that or something else. But it’s a cartoon that is animated.

[@arcticbanana66]

There was an exchange in the first volume of the manga DramaCon (which was published by Tokyopop) where a character was being challenged by someone who claimed her manga "isn't really manga because you're not Japanese." I forget how the exact conversation went, but it boiled down to "Claiming a manga or anime isn't really a manga or anime because it wasn't made in Japan by Japanese people, is exactly the same as claiming a pizza isn't really a pizza unless it was made by Italians in Italy." [Edit: I accidentally a word.]

[@Jada-ky4ci]

That’s a good analogy

[@tg-k6yt255]

@@Jada-ky4ci it isen't, a pizza is not define by the country, but by the way it is prepered

[@KiKiD484]

I remember that conversation! It was some kid saying that it wasn't manga because it was by a black person and his mom heard it and got on his ass. The pizza analogy came from a celebrity tryin to diffuse the situation.

[@Val.Zhevhev]

6:20 When Joey said 2007 was over 15 years ago, I felt the pain in my chest.😢 Feels like it was only yesterday.

[@Nekogitsune]

People are still arguing about this? Man this feels like 2010 era all over again 💀😭

[@tohaason]

To me it's simply "I can't define anime, but I know it when I see it!" (to borrow from and paraphrase Justice Potter Stewart)

[@tiborcsendes5269]

Yap

[@PHLE_Anime]

You made some valid points man and if I might have to add something Witchblade is based off an American comic book and yet it’s anime adaptation is in the MAL database and Oban Star Racers a Japanese/French coproduction anime is also listed as an anime and tha last time I checked Spider Riders and Bakugan both of those are listed as legitimate anime even though both of those shows are Canadian/Japanese coproductions so it really doesn’t make any sense why Scott Pilgrim isn’t listed in the database.

[@marocat4749]

I would too recommand live action witchblade, i dont know the accuracy, and is great, and sadly never got season 3 due the main actress who nails it, addiction :( . But its a great show.

[@bladeneo7420]

Good point about Wichblade. I have both the anime and irl on DVD. Here's something what about the halo anime. Oh yes, it was made by a Japanese studio with Japanese people but like to your point with which blade. It's a western IP made by western company that has had such a problem getting into the Japanese market. They're non-existent that anime was not meant for the Japanese market. It was meant for everyone else. How many people in japan have an Xbox and not that many?.

[@JeinNoir]

Ahaha I remember when people were trynna make Japanime stick. The old advertising in vhs & cable days usually did specify "Japanese anime" in the USA. The West has adapted the word just like it managed to overthrow the negative connotations of otaku for the most part. The only exposure English listeners have to the term anime is naturally from Japanese media....it's just a nice shorthand way to narrow it down culturally I think. Same with manga vs comics. All that babble being said, it would be best people are also aware that it is used differently in Japanese. Lots of differences and can't be translated 1:1 tho, so study up! 😂😂😂✨

[@lbewl7374]

It's produced by Universal, an American company. It's primary target audience is clearly also American given the 90's teen angst cartoon nostalgia dripping from it. I noticed you avoided that issue which disqualifies it as an anime. It's awesome having Necry Talkie, one of my favourite bands, doing the intro though.

[@73a73]

Cyberpunk Edgerunners was produced by the game’s developers, CD Projekt Red, and the many D.C. and Marvel anime were produced by Warner Bros. and Marvel. The Big O was made to look like American animation and was aimed to fail in the Japanese market and succeed in America. Panty & Stocking similarly was made to look like American animation. They’re all on the MAL database and considered as anime, so why should Scott Pilgrim be left out of the picture?

[@noobicus727]

The guideline post was made in 2012 as you can see at the top their. The user joined in 2007

[@benjaminve3140]

There was a time way back when there were quite a lot of anime adaptions of western classical literature - wish I could see more of that. Miyazaki worked on some in his early animation career.

[@saeko_love]

I personally like to use the 'production by a Japanese studio' definition when it comes to determining if it's 'anime', but it has to be originally released in Japanese media first for me to consider it. But that's just me.

[@MediocreNed]

For japan, by japan. As simple as that. Anybody who worms the 'well it's outsourced in korea so it doesn't count' is a disingenuous hack their opinion should be discarded in bad faith.

[@YightLagami]

How would you argue that for Netflix and that it's both released in JP and EN simultaneously?

[@MediocreNed]

​@@YightLagami By Japan For westerners. And your one of those bad faith actors, for pulling that crap.

[@YightLagami]

@@MediocreNed It's called Devil's advocate. That is not how bad faith arguments work. The argument is that it's shown on Netflix but so was Jojo Part 6. I'm asking how it would work since Jojo Part 6 is shown on netflix for Western/JP audience. You also just fail to address how Cyberpunk which was paid by CDR a western company to have Trigger produce the anime

[@MediocreNed]

@@YightLagami JoJo was a japanese manga long before an anime. Previous parts were adapted intially in japan only, by the same studio. It's a fucking anime. Also I don't consider cyberpunk to be an anime since it was written by westerners and it's target audience was westerners. Same for Castlevania.

[@Ramk0core]

And then you have a show included in MAL like Afro Samurai which, like Scott Pilgrim here, was made in a japanese studio. But Afro is far more clearly targeted towards a western audience, since it doesn't even have a Japanese dub to this day, which Scott Pilgrim has. MAL just doesn't want to admit they made a very big oopsie.

[@MoMoMan0]

The director might as well be Japanese: “Abel Góngora is a Spanish animator and director known for his work with the Japanese animation studio Science SARU. Having joined the studio as ONE OF THE FIRST EMPLOYEES, Góngora serves as the head of Science SARU's digital animation department…” -Wikipedia

[@yescertainly.8435]

And? Even if, the rest of main staff is not Japanese.

[@oblivi8games808]

@@yescertainly.8435 Every single episode director for the series is Japanese, so I'm not sure what you're talking about

[@marcorodriguez8792]

I keep it simple. I go by what Japan uses the word anime for and that is anything animation. It's easy and it makes sense (to me at least), but at the end of the day, it really depends on the person how they see/use the word anime

[@takarahayashi4124]

playing devil's advocate for MAL, a good chunk of western cartoons even as far back as the 80's were animated in Japan or Korea. For example, the X-Men saturday morning cartoon. Should that be on MAL also?

[@BearWith_You]

I clarify Avatar or Teen Titans as "American Anime". It is produced by American companies and crew members, and particularly airs on American networks, but is heavily inspired by traditional Japanese anime. Every said Scott Pilgrim was an anime and I was confused why. I didn't realize it was made by so many Japanese and an in house studio so yes even by western terms, its anime

[@Trying2Draw]

Anime-influenced or anime-inspired animation would be a more accurate term. :3

[@alexanderthealright]

​@@Trying2Drawbut why tho

[@Trying2Draw]

@@alexanderthealright Because American cartoons like Avatar or Teen Titans are animation that are anime-influenced, hence "anime-influenced animation".

[@alexanderthealright]

@@Trying2Draw but why is it important to differentiate? Does it change the work? Does calling it American Anime or Western Anime make ANY difference whatsoever?

[@merelyChirs]

​@@alexanderthealrightlol, apparently it does to people who feel the need to categorize every known concept in the universe.

[@Zenkyuu8921]

It’s too hard to keep up with anime while watching all the classics you never knew the name of when you were little, so I’ve resorted to only watching what I vibe with. It was a good run trying to keep up. I got about 150 under my belt before having to throw in the towel.

[@JLCL01]

How much modern anime would you watch, before? I know there is people who would literally watch almost every single anime title in a season. I could never really do that. Long ago, it was because of my dysthymia (and just getting distracted mainly with KZbin). While definitely true now, back then it was also similar to your reasoning. After watching evangelion, I wanted to look more into the other titles made by the creator (Anno) and the studio (Gainax). While I did look at then-recent titles, I actually looked at their oldest stuff like Nadia and gunbuster. Those lead me to Macross and OG Gundam ('79). I still haven't watched every single noteable retro anime, yet.

[@shinkisaragi4369]

Gee now I’m curious if myanimelist considers the witchblade anime from 2006 anime, since it’s also based off a American comic book series and the creators were heavenly involved with the production

[@kahtyman7293]

that post on MAL you mentioned at the beginning, it was posted in 09.11.2012, not 2007, Lead Admin "joined" forum in 2007 :P

[@takeruneverborn4740]

To be honest with the introduction of Avatar the last airbender it really blurred the lines between Western Animation and Anime made in Japanese

[@thomasffrench3639]

Avatar is clearly a western animated work, it’s very different from anime.

[@tiborcsendes5269]

@@notimportant0000 The style and the look enough reason to call it an anime. Stop being a snob.

[@tiborcsendes5269]

@@thomasffrench3639 No it is not...

[@thomasffrench3639]

@@tiborcsendes5269 how so? It is clearly animated more like a western cartoon than an anime with the exception of some of the fight scenes.

[@pablocasas5906]

Don't want to sound like a gatekeeper or anything, but I consider shows like Avatar, Castlevania and Voltron Legendary Defender as just animated series. Yes, they do have an manga/anime artstyle, and in the case of Castlevania and Voltron they're based on Japanese properties, but the scripts and storyboards were done in the West, and the animation itself was done in South Korea I know that in season 2 of Korra, some episodes were done by Studio Pierrot from Japan, but in my opinion that just outsourcing, just like how many 80s and 90s cartoons were outsourced to other Japanese studios like TMS, Madhouse and Sunrise

[@NexAngelus405]

Personally, I think a Japanese production based on a Western IP should be considered anime if it debuts originally with a Japanese language track. If it debuts in English or another language besides Japanese, then it doesn't count. Otherwise, Scooby-Doo and Batman: The Animated Series would count as "anime" because the animation for both series was outsourced heavily to Japanese studios. In fact, The Big O was inspired by Sunrise's involvement in the production of the latter show.

[@dasgrauel]

Though, Space Dandy puts that into a questionable space, seeing as the English version was first and the jp was second.

[@iunnoo]

what do you define as debut though? because in scott pilgrim's case, it was available in every language possible (not literally) upon release

[@NexAngelus405]

@@iunnoo If you check the language track options, English is marked as the original.

[@Virgo8580]

Joey is correct. I mean, even before the 1990's Japan had been outsourcing In Betweeners (IB Animators) in other asian countries. They were responsible for all the in between art from frame to frame. Anime like Macross, among many others had a lot of help from outsourcing. Animé is starting to expand its reaches. No need for fellow fans to argue. Expect more, and hybrid japanese animation with elements of western influences. All is good!

[@mancubwwa]

One correction, there is no "between frames", frames are all there is. In betwween animation means that main studios does key frames shaping the style, the action etc, and in betwwen studios does frames that fill in to create motion. Also interesting that Japanese studios were outsourcing back than, given that as late as '87 west was still outsourcing animation to Japan. And not to some random small studios, but to Toei of all companies.

[@Virgo8580]

@@mancubwwa Note: "in between art from frame to frame." Yes, frames are all there is. And nobody said in between frames. There is nothing to correct. Yes, Japan was outsourcing. My uncles worked on Wicked City, Robotech and many others. As mentioned, all is good. These are facts and all these outsource animators deserve to be included.

[@acmenipponair]

Scott Pilgram is when you look at the staff list as much an anime as Ducktales or the Gummi Bears is. And yes, they are considered anime by MyAnimelist, as they were produced partly in Japan for international AND japanese market (they even had japanese versions of the intros) by TMS (the Conan studio).

[@Pslyse]

Fun fact, The director, Abel Góngora, was one of the first 5 staff members of Science Saru, and has been with the studio since it was founded in 2013

[@Alexia-ys6yx]

For me, what defines something as "Anime" is more a feeling I get just looking at it. I don't need to know the history, the structure, the staff, or anything about it. I look at image, artwork, etc of it and just know if it is, or isn't. I don't even know how to describe that feeling really. I look at something like Pokemon, Tales of, Higurashi, Inuyasha, even Disgaea and just go "Yep, that's anime". Meanwhile other stuff like modern Final Fantasy, Kingdom Hearts, or Avatar the last airbender just give a "Close, but not quite right" type of feeling. I don't know anything about Scott Pilgrim and I look at the images from that show and just don't get a feeling at all. So, personally I would say it's not anime.

[@demonkingofsalvation5380]

Why am I getting "retired man that sometimes talks about anime" vibes from him?

[@fordis2]

Because you want to be funny and quirky with this statement

[@tiborcsendes5269]

Because he now only care about anime when he can get views with it. Thats it.

[@happygofishing]

because he grew up, maybe you should.

[@chrissolace]

11:47 I think using that western definition for anime (animated shows made in Japan) is the most concrete way of labeling it, and sure series can take inspiration, but I feel like separating it and not calling it a cartoon feels like it’s limiting to both mediums (I.e., “oh an anime has to look like THIS or a cartoon has to look like THIS”) when just separating by country of creation is just… simpler. Not to mention, it feels like people are saying, “Don’t lump kiddy cartoons with my cool anime!” When I think both mediums are great and have great shows. Edit: Grammar

[@Jaylobeans]

I just finished this show and it was incredible, from the animation, deep dive into to the characters and more

[@Forgraver]

Joey as the manga man I hope you can get around to reading it, it’s only 6 volumes and as somone from Ontario Canada it is so cool seeing your surroundings into a cool story

[@killa4sho313]

anime mean animation that was made in japan To expand on this loan words often mean different things than they did in their native language than in the host language. "Anime" is strange because it's a loan word from English to Japanese, that got shortened and then re-borrowed back to English from Japanese, each time it changed meaning slightly animation -> cartoon -> Japanese cartoons. The ordinary English usage of the term 'anime' is limited by reference to Japan. Try this thought experiment. If I created a discussion entitled 'The Simpsons v Futurama' at one of the major anime subreddits, the mods would likely not allow it, and you yourself would likely be taken aback if you came across such a discussion. Your immediate thought would surely be 'those are not anime'. This intuition is itself evidence about the meaning of the word 'anime'. The fact is, everyone knows that when someone says 'anime' in English (and other languages which have adapted the word?), 999 times out of 1000, they mean 'Japanese animation'.

[@youdungoofed1]

It's clearly not an anime because Joey is watching it.

[@oceanicGrimalkin]

I think for people not residing in Japan, anime is animation done in Japan. Animation from Korea and China seem similar in style, but they're called different names like how manga differs from manhwa. Japanese call cartoons anime because it's already their word that's an umbrella term for all kinds of animations the same way the word "cartoon" is. Cartoons can also be in the style of anime but is not an anime. In the case of Avatar The Last Airbender, it's storyboarded in the US, but animated in Korea, iirc. It's not from elitism, but just to give more distinction. I think it's a case of a word having different definitions depending on whether you're from Japan or not. Calling a show "Japanese anime" just feels repetitive for those who didn't grow up using the word to generally mean all types of cartoon.

[@killa4sho313]

The word you’re looking for is semantic change.

[@oceanicGrimalkin]

@@killa4sho313 Does that cover differing uses between the word's country of origin and other countries'? I dunno much about language terms.

[@killa4sho313]

It just means that words that once meant something from another language or the same language can mean something else in other. There are a lot of categories within semantic change that covers different ways a word is change from it original meaning. Over 10% of all japanese words come from English changeing it

[@oceanicGrimalkin]

@@killa4sho313 Ahhh. Well, now at least I know that there's a term for it. Thank you.

[@michaelherrera4914]

Geoff at Mothers Basement also did an excellent video about this topic that I’d recommend checking out.

[@finchzer0]

Not usually a big fan of some of your content over on TheAnimeMan ch, but this is a really good video.

[@loleck2]

I think confusion can come about with terminologies because of cultural lens should be taken to an account as well. When people watch something, I think they instinctively know that it is an “anime” or not after some viewing; the initial giveaway would be the aesthetics but after that point, the cultural emotionality/thoughts/characteristics reflects Japanese culture and therefore there is this uniqueness to them. Things are not so clear cut anymore because now Anime has branched out to the global market and lots of collaborations happen. However I think some distinctions should be made because for sure companies are choosing japanese countries for a reason. They could have gone to a Western company/European company to get the scott pilgrim show to be animated but they chose a Japanese animation company for a reason, perhaps the work quality but maybe also something unique that the Japanese culture and staff provides. I think argument arise because ultimately it is people who embue value into things and they do because there is something there to note that seems present but just can’t put into words. Even though Japanese people won’t make the distinction between anime due to words used by others are different, but I think they will definitely make a distinction between “Japanese- anime” and “non- Japanese- anime” So I believe that the real discussion is what defines Japanese animation anymore in the world where there is much global collaboration occurring? Personally, I believe the cultural emotion/message is one of the defining factor in distinguishing Japanese anime VS just animation.

[@killa4sho313]

The word you’re looking for is semantic change. Words change from language to language

[@C4Harris]

MyAnimeList really shifts the goalposts in their opinion of what's anime. They allow korean aeni, they allow chinese donghua, when those aren't technically anime. So the real basis for if something is an anime or not to them is... whether or not they want to call it that. I think anything animated should be allowed as long as it goes for the style, uses the tropes, or in general looks like something a person could call anime. They allow Achiwa Ssipak... and that looks like a rocket power fever dream. I would say the Scott Pilgrim Takes Off animation looks way more like anime than that.

[@midnightlumina7]

Management definitely has Yellow Fever.

[@neoramaredzone8544]

But what’s the style what if a Japanese anime doesn’t have the “style” of an anime is it still an anime? I think defining anime based on style isn’t applicable when some anime have drastically different styles. Stockings and Garter belt is in the entertainment style of American animation and takes heavy influence from it despite being an anime. Space dandy had its episodes dubbed and released in English before Japanese despite being an anime. I think the term is the most consistent if it’s referring to Asian animation as the term is predominantly used today to refer to animation from mostly Japan, but also Korea, and China. Most people who refer to shows like Avatar as anime are usually more casual fans or people who don’t watch anime. (I have a friend that does this all the time)

[@JordanLittle-bb3yq]

They are anime. Anime is animation. That's it.

[@Snzn_7]

The funny thing is Mal included Star wars Vision, the Blade Runner anime, and Altered Carbon anime made the freaking cut in Mal's database. which are basically is a western ip animated by Japanese production like Scott Pilgrim. And years ago the 2 Batman anime and the few Marvel anime is in MAL.

[@aniconomics]

Well I guess Ping pong the animation is not anime since its style doesn't represent most contemporary anime

[@_heartunderblade2451]

To play devil's advocate I think the strongest argument for it not being anime based on MAL's guideline would be that it isn't for a Japanese audience because you can make that argument that it's targeting the western aduidence who originally fell in love with the series. BUT, even this is hypcortical, because MAL includes Trigun Badlands Rumble... which was made specifically for the western audience lmfao. So they don't really abide by their own rules as you have also pointed out with other examples in your video.

[@connorstern8413]

If we consider the MAL rules, being aimed at a Japanese Audience isn't the only criteria. In a mixed origin production, the Japanese studios involved should have creative control. In the case of Trigun Badlands Rumble, every studio and production company involved is Japanese. In the case of SPTO, only one of the 6 production companies involved is Japanese...

[@stealthbrandon]

Eh Trigun was orignally an anime made for japan though , I didn't do well apparently , and the Sequels was funded by Western but it's origins and concept was a regular japanese manga for the japanese audience it just failed to catch on in popularity

[@PKSunset]

Panty and Stocking was aimed at Western audiences! @@stealthbrandon

[@MrDudeshutup123]

It's interesting that MAL has Cyberpunk: Edgerunners but not Scott Pilgrim. Since they are both originally Western properties with anime adaptations on Netflix. Feels more a comment on the animation art direction over anything else.

[@Shonen_Shadow]

Teen Titans was another one that blurred the lines as well since that also got a lot of Japanese staff to help make it as well as the Japanese band Puffy Ami Umi doing the music

[@kebosangar]

I think Joey forgot to consider the implications if myanimelist includes animation that is animated in Japan but not produced for the Japanese market. Since this means, they need to include the old 80's American cartoons that was produced in Japan but was targeted for the US market. Like Transformer (g1 g2), Thundercats, Gi Joe, Galaxy Rangers and many more. I empathize with myanimelist, since I realize that anime as a medium cannot be defined just by a website and myanimelist is just doing it for practicality's sake.

[@Pablo360able]

But if they exclude shows that *weren't* produced for the Japanese market, they'd need to drop Big O.

[@kebosangar]

@@Pablo360able Big O? The anime about pseudo batman riding a super robot and was aired in Japanese TV first, that Big O?

[@Pablo360able]

@@kebosangar Yeah, the one specifically made to appeal to a Western audience whose producers planned on it flopping in Japan but being supported by its Adult Swim audience.

[@SkullyX99]

To me, if it's created in Japan for a Japanese audience. It's anime. If it's not that, then it isn't.

[@JawBr]

All animes are animations and all animations are anime. Idc about "but anime is specific to japanese animes because of style etc etc etc" idc, it's still an animation, The Last Airbender or even SpongeBob is an anime the same way Fullmetal Alchemist is an anime too. Change my mind 😈

[@feha92]

imo there's great importance in discriminating the terms for things like anime vs cartoons vs chanime vs kanime (or written: manga vs cartoons vs manwha vs manhua), because that allows them to carry cultural connotations (and what languages you need to be able to read/hear) about the work. You can for example tell that there is very large differences between webnovels, depending on country of origin of the author (mainly noticeable in japanese vs western vs american vs chinese/korean), in both how they are written and how the characters behave or believe. Or overall what social commentary (and as such, to some extent what tropes) there will be in it. Then you might ask what you should classify a work imitating the style of another word, should it be called by the country of origin, the target audience, or the style it imitated? In this case, I think the answer depends on context - generally you would say something more explicit, like, "a western work in the style of anime" (like Avatar last airbender), but you can often use the name of the style ("anime") when just talking about it (in this case a show like edgerunner would be solidly "not anime" due to being entirely wrong style both visually and otherwise), and only use origin's term ("cartoon") when it comes to availability (platforms/licensing/undubbed language). Finally, there is also domestic interests in keeping the names exclusive for export reasons. "champagne", "anime", and the like are all things that there are interests that want to keep the terms exclusive to the region, as it makes their product more desired by consumers even when they are identical. Branding, so to speak. But as for MAL, I hate that they don't add everything. A database/tracker should just have all entries, for _EVERYTHING,_ because its purpose is to be used to track which shows you follow and watched. What purpose is there in forcing users to have accounts on multiple services just so they can track all watched/read media they consume? tl;dr - use the word that fits the context/conversation. Unless it is MAL. Then allow all shows, even stuff like western movies (star wars, marvel, etc.)

[@Rutillith]

Me and my friends always have had the defitinion of anime as "A cartoon made in japan", but we all know that Anime are Cartoons as well; It's really not that hard to get it, I still don't understand why there is so much taboo(?) about that topic...

[@Mtaalas]

"Was it made mainly or largely by Japanese production company and directed and key animated by Japanese people? no? it's not anime." Anime in the lingo means that it's animation that originates from japan and is made by Japanese people for Japanese audiences. (Yes I KNOW that it's just a Japanese word for "animation", but "the lingo" is how we use it here outside of Japan) It has never EVER been about the art style nor anything else superficial, case in point: Panty and Stocking or Dead Leaves...

[@sirmiluch6856]

Exactly. Same with sake. In the west sake means specific Japanese alcohol. In Japan sake means all high % alcohol. Specific Japanese one is nihonshu.

[@greatteacheronizuka]

I think the main reason for it is that it was made with the western audience in mind and only used a Japanese company (and its staff to produce it), but MAL rules had written that it must be both produced in Japan and made for its audience (which it kinda wasn't). Still, if that is actually the case, then MAL has most likely been hypocritical about this with some other show/anime.

[@justanotherweirdo11]

It's on Japanese Netflix. Netflix marketed it to their Japanese audience. Why would they dub the show in Japanese if not for their Japanese audience?

[@greatteacheronizuka]

Just an extra chance to make more money, but noone would think that it was made with primarily the Japanese audience in mind as I think they wouldn't give much of a fuck about that particular franchise. I just think that it was mainly made for people who have read the comics or watched the movie. Either way, I don't care if it is or isn't on MAL as I won't be watching it (as of now).@@justanotherweirdo11

[@nobafan7515]

​@@justanotherweirdo11localization? Otherwise 4kid's yugioh would be called an american cartoon.

[@Nordicsz]

Say that to the 90s Moomin show. Executive producer was some scandinavian, the production company was in the Netherlands and the animation was done in Japan. The show is really popular in Japan, but it was made for Finland and the Netherlands, aka not Japan. Or how about Alfred J Kwak? Made on request by the Netherlands with a lot of music and script and directors in the Netherlands and animation in Japan. Both these shows are on MAL. Guess we should remove them.

[@V2ULTRAKill]

Scott pilgrim was HEAVILY marketed to japanese audiences, even more than to western audiences The west just latched on harder

[@GeoRoen27]

It’s pretty obvious, nowadays anime is more mainstream, not just in Japan or the west but all over the world. Calling an animated show “anime” allows for more publicity compared to the limited publicity it would get if it were just a regular animated show. I don’t really care either way but it definitely is a good way to get more eyes on your show if you call it an anime. I mean i can’t remember the last time I was excited about a +14 cartoon since Rick and morty

[@Blazerage717]

I’ve always considered anime to be animation that comes out of Japan. However I think the idea that it’s aimed at a Japanese audience has a big influence on what makes anime feel like anime. Retrospectively that’s probably always been part of my definition, it just hadn’t occurred to me until watching this video. Also I do think it’s convenient for anime to be a phrase that’s making a distinction from western cartoons (like Invincible or Castlevania) because there is different vibe between them. P.S. Everyone should go give Invincible and Castlevania at least a 1 ep shot. They won’t waste your time.

[@TerraRose21]

While I do agree that "for a japanese audience" is a big factor about what makes anime what it is for me, moreso than that is the fact that most of that is embodied in the narrative structure and how Japanese storytelling trusts the audience to have a brain and make connections. I remember hearing about one of the pokemon movies adding in bits of dialog to make the twist even more apparent to Western audiences in the dub because Western media does not trust the audience and tries to appeal to a lower standard. But I can say that not all anime that are made in japan for japan have this element that I love because there are lots of shows aimed at younger kids in japan that are just as simple as cartoons in the west. I see them listed on livechart and i Don't look twice at them but i know they are there. So I agree with Joey that as long as there is a strong showing of Japanese creators in the production that it should still be considered anime no matter where the production is made for. Or the source material it is made from.

[@delirious4565]

While we are on the subject of "genres" and "categories" i wish we could broaden how we talk and designate Anime styles. For instance, there is a world of difference between Blue Lock's inner monologue narrative story-telling and Lycoris Recoil's "show-don't-tell" approach.

[@corey2232]

it's funny that people say it's not based on Japanese source material, yet there are countless anime on MAL that are Korean or Chinese, with zero Japanese source material whatsoever.... People should start using AniList as well as MAL. It includes a lot of additional anime that MAL does not (like Scott Pilgrim), and gives you more options for how you score anime. Mother's Basement tipped me off to it, and I feel their definition of what qualifies as an anime is a lot more encompassing than MAL's.