Pathfinder MULTICLASS Tier List

[@Sfynz]

Minor Correction: You can't use the Devise a Stratagem d20 roll for skills, you just get a bonus to skills if you disallow youself to Strike the DaS target.

[@Nonat1s]

Ahh, you're totally correct! I definitely misread the Skill Stratagem. Thank you for pointing that out! I'll pin the comment so folks can see that!

[@FormerRuling]

Also you (nonat) say in the video that DaS is free if the target is related to your lead. This is incorrect also. The target has to be the one that can "answer the question at the heart of your investigation" IE: pretty much only works on the boss of the quest. This does mean that it will be free when it *most* matters, though.

[@harrisonpayne50]

@@FormerRuling true, but by level 6 at a minimum, you can grab person of interest with the basic class feat option to mitigate that past round one for the toughest opponent in each and every fight. Bit easier done on Free Archetype. Not sure how worth it it is on a Magus for example without FA though. Edit: also keyword in DS is "help." The creature does not need to be the one to completely answer the question: it just needs to be relevant enough to help get you closer to the answer.

[@FormerRuling]

@harrisonpayne50 it can be interpreted to different degrees (one aspect of Investigator the remaster didn't help with is that it's basically "GM May I?" The class) but what's clear is that it's meant to be a target that's more important than simply being "related to" your investigation.

[@dbeardconqueror]

@@FormerRuling 18:57 It is a free action if "you're aware that creature could help answer the question at the heart of one of your active investigations". My interpretation is that "could help answer" is a lot more generous than "could answer", so, for example, if your active lead was the head of a crime family, encounters with his goons would potentially benefit from this bonus since they would have at least SOME information that could help with your active investigation. Also, there's no restriction on the player to just ask a very simple and pointed question. For example, your investigation could be the source of a creature's footprint and therefore an encounter with said creature would have a free action DaS. With the remaster, investigators by default can have 2 active leads open now, so it wouldn't be unheard of for your investigator to have one main questline lead open throughout the day, while opening other minor investigations over the course of the session prior to encounters so they can get the free action DaS.

[@AJBernard]

I'm currently playing a fighter with the "Wizard dedication" and the "Academy Dropout" background... he failed out of wizard school when he punched an instructor in the face. But having access to a carefully selected handful of cantrips gives a VERY different feel to the fighter. He carries a quiver of arrows, but no bow: He can use those arrows, or a rock laying around, to change between bludgeoning and piercing damage for Telekenetic projectile. He's got the Shield cantrip, so when his shield breaks, he can go 2 hands on the bastard sword and still have the AC from the shield spell. I know you weren't fond of the Wizard dedication, but it's become a core identity for my fighter. =)

[@Nonat1s]

That's all so freaking rad! This whole post is something I love about PF2. The difference between "S-Tier" and "F-Tier" is not that wide of a gap, honestly. The game is so well balanced that anything can and will be useful, and it's up to the player to figure out how best to apply those tools to their character! I love a fighter who swaps to "Two-Hand" with the shield cantrip up! Super flavorful!

[@philopharynx7910]

Almost any character can get use from having a couple of cantrips.

[@Captainpigraven]

I run weekly campaigns for 4th-8th grade students, and I must say Wizard is a rather popular multiclass archetype, especially since we play with Free Archetype. Being able to pick a couple utility spells every day at each rank throughout the course of a campaign is pretty incredible. Like you said, it really alters the feel of a character. And it also lets the kids feel like their characters are useful in all phases of the game, which keeps them far more invested. I have to say that I completely disagree with the low grade on the Wizard Archetype that Nonat has assigned. I think the versatility of the utility spells in the Arcane Tradition when applied to any martial class (and even some caster classes) make it very desirable. And this is coming from someone who thinks the base class Wizard is one of the worst classes in PF2.

[@norandomnumbers]

​@@Nonat1sThis is in no way reflected in your tier list. There should be no D or F tier rankings if they are closely balanced. I don't usually dislike your videos but this one is just real bad.

[@Nonat1s]

@@norandomnumbers cool 👍

[@edoardocaccia6226]

As someone on Reddit said, maybe the real Battle Oracle was the Fighter with Oracle Dedication we met along the way

[@Specter053]

A small detail that buffs up the Fighter dedication: it's the quickest way to grab Reactive Strike for a martial, so a Barbarian, a Champion or a melee Rogue can grab Fighter dedication and be able to reactive strike quicker than originally, or at all in the case of Rogue.

[@Asin24]

It's even better if you play with Free Archtype rules. No added investment to get it really makes it shine. Reactive Strike is such a huge boon to have as a frontliner, particularly if you very much want to make yourself a threat to help keep your poor casters safe.

[@Captainpigraven]

Also great for a dedicated Wild Shape Druid.

[@matthewmussler5621]

Agreed! The barbarian at my table wanted both Reactive Strike and Giant's Stature at level 6, and decided he would be happier using the Fighter dedication to acquire Reactive Strike at level 4 then picking what was available in barbarian.

[@vilelance3919]

On rogue I will prefer to get a reactive strike feat trough the Marshal archetype on lvl 8

[@nolongerdude]

A funny combo I did Rogue archetype gives you a surprise attack All enemies that haven't taken their turn in a fight are off guard Add to that multiple hit spells (that targets ac) like blazing bolt and you got yourself a fun combo

[@ChristopherM.8]

Couldn't agree more on the Oracle - as someone who adores the flavor of them it really feels like the remaster did them dirty. Feels very akin to hexblade warlocks from D&D 5e where the 2level dip would just make you better at everything you would want from it and anything further was just a fool's errand.

[@Ascarion47]

Oracle was my favourite class in 1e. In 2e it felt like sorcerer with extra steps and more limitations. The remaster did not really change that and took a way a lot of the flavour, even though the oracle is maybe slightly stronger mechanically. Too bad.

[@XandiG]

I'm already ready for an Unchained Oracle lol

[@shoulung6203]

RE: Hexblade; being able to double your ability modifier on damage rolls at level 12 was very nice. That ability got nerfed in the new edition and dropped down to level 9, but the third attack at level 12 more than makes up for it.

[@TheNaturalnuke]

Barbarian goes up in rating just a bit for the kineticist specifically. Turning Fire into a melee attack and then adding strength, con, bonus damage, and fire weakness is phenomenal

[@asherclark1020]

The familiar granted by witch archetype easily makes up for only getting to prepare one cantrip. For instance, one of the familiar abilities you get can just gives you an extra cantrip, meaning the dedication is now giving you 2 cantrips, plus whatever your other familiar ability is.

[@patricklapinski1526]

Alchemist with witch dedication is pretty dang good Extra bombs and vials with your familiar

[@TheLunarboy4]

@@patricklapinski1526 Also you gain access to the cauldron feat for making potions every day. Like, Alchemist/Witch or Witch/Alchemist can seriously COOK

[@joejohnson9499]

My big pluses for witch archetype are for the familiar ability that can give another focus point once per day. Another familiar ability, once you get high enough level, is another spell slot. The other one to point to is Life Boost. Life boost is gold. In addition, it gives access to any spell tradition for the sake of spell completion (staves, scrolls, etc..)

[@larrywilliams6116]

The dedication gives a familiar (1st level class or ancestry feat) plus a cantrip. Then basic witchcraft gives you a 1-2 level witch feat plus a 3rd ability slot for your familiar. Those 2 things alone make the dedication better than it gets credited for

[@greghazzard8930]

My only disagreement is the Rogue. Frankly, I think the rogue should be S-Tier simply because it is so useful for nearly any character. Most of my character builds include the rogue archetype, just because of nimble dodge and skill mastery. And let's not forget Mobility for your squishy spell casters. The ability to move away from a threatening martial enemy without provoking a Reactive Strike is never a bad thing.

[@boltgamr1029]

Not even just Nimble Dodge, but also Mobility. If you move half your speed or less on a Stride action, then that movement doesn't trigger reactions. It's not an ability that costs actions, its simply a passive, meaning if you have another ability that says "Stride up to half your speed and make a Strike against one enemy along the path", that Stride doesn't trigger reactions because you took the Stride action, even though its a sub-action. Combine it with something like a swashbuckler, elf, boots of bounding, or the fleet feat, and youve got some serious un-interruptible mobility

[@TheLunarboy4]

My favorite part about Oracle dedication is that you can now play an undead (or dampir) character much more easily if you want to. At level 4 you can take Nudge the Scales and now you can benefit from vitality healing! And you get a nice little 1 action healing ability. It's not as powerful as most spells, but its still fun. idk, I just like that I can now play my skeleton who worships Sarenrae in an attempt to make up for his sins during his time under a necromancer's command. Bonus points that I can build him as a cleric and allow him to benefit from his own enhanced and plentiful healing spells.

[@nonperson3045]

Might wanna drop Cleric to d-tier; Healing and Harming hands requires a font. Anything a Cleric can offer a class in terms of domain spells, a champion probably offers more by way of Domain Acumen and let's be honest: you're probably grabbing a Domain for Athletic Rush.

[@9652769]

Not sure, it has a lot of feats that influence heal, they have the santifiy holy so you hit easily.

[@LordTridus]

@@9652769 Champion also gives Sanctify Holy, and having another pool of renewable healing and damage mitigation is better than modifying Heal a bit.

[@dagwoodechgaming8913]

I am surprised that the two-feat dip for Mobility on rogue wasn’t mentioned. Really good for any martial, especially speedy ones like monks and swashbucklers, and all you need is the dedication and the basic trickery feat.

[@ghostyuki-kfpinquisitor1038]

My thoughts: First, I'd say wis is as valuable or slightly more than cha (though both are more generally useful than int) Ranger - You can get some useful low lvl warden spells as well. Gravity weapon for free dmg, soothing mist for healing and persistent dmg recovery, etc. Twin takedown makes a pretty good substitute for Flurry of Blows especially post-nerf if you're dual wielding. Fighter - There's the advanced weapon training feat (archetype would be at lvl 12) which makes an advanced weapon use your martial proficiency. Good if you aren't a human and want to use one. Also at level 20 you can access a lot of good feats (disruptive stance, extra reactive strike, agile grace) granted that is at endgame. Also blind fight and the extra shield block reaction (though the latter champ also gets). The feat to get Reactive Strike also makes it an easier archetype to get back out of. Alch - The other thing that makes main class better is you don't get any of the research field's abilities (like tox ignoring poison immunity). Barb - On the resiliency topic, it's the only one that can be taken by a 10+ con hp class. Also there's 2 new instincts that give the giant barbarian damage bonus but a different penalty (decay making you take damage every round and the wood one nerfing your speed) Champion - rip my cloistered cleric/champ arche combo for easy heavy armor lol. Still an amazing archetype though. Combines well with barb because of the reactions and lay on hands being castable while raging. Investigator - Devise a Strategem is almost like having Sure Strike for every attack if there's more than 1 target.

[@alarkhar]

Barb has a small thing that bumps it up - and said small thing is Howl of the Wild. Yep, the li'l extra book. Why? Animal instinct barbarian - take it, then choose SCORPION. The stinger attack is pretty much a monstrosity - reach, decent damage and Venomous... that is, persistent poison danage on a normal-freakin'-hit. Oh, and the pincer attack has parry. Put this sweet little thing on someone like, say, a Ruffian rogue, a Swashbuckler or a Monk, and watch the damage skyrocket. Rage, raise pincer, sting, watch 'em drop.

[@ajparker7575]

So I know where Kineticist falls on the list (S or S+ tier) due to how their feats scale, though I'm curious where the other non-core classes fall on your list. I at least imagine the Psychic can do some very interesting things with it being a caster archetype with very powerful psi-cantrips at the heart of their class, but I'm concerned that things like the Inventor and Thaumaturge might actually limit what people can get through multi-classing much more than most classes, and I'm certain that the gunslinger is barely singing a slightly better tune than what the fighter gives people.

[@SockMonkeyRacer]

Hi, I'm new to pf2e, in what ways do you think thaumaturge would be limiting?

[@KapitanQaz]

not me waiting the whole video for Magus before remembering it wasn't in either Player Core

[@SockMonkeyRacer]

Same I was waiting for thaumaturg

[@hammerspace8866]

I'd say that multiclassing int pathfinder 2e is simular to multiclassing in D&D 4e

[@donaldcrankshaw1627]

I agree. 4e's multiclassing (at least until they introduced hybrid classing), was very similar to Pathfinder 2e, where you took feats that gave you access to some of the other class's abilities. So I'm afraid that the assertion that it's hard to understand compared to any edition of D&D from the last 30 years is incorrect, as you only have to go back ten years to the immediate preceding edition to find something very similar.

[@JamesTillmanjimthegray]

unlocking the levels that give you spells is the big reason to take caster dedications particularly with free archetype

[@pedrofmra]

Although I'm yet to try building this, I find being able to have the 'Deadly simplicity' cleric feat on martial classes to increase your weapon's damage die a really good excuse to get it, on top of getting spells

[@faithgrins]

Deadly Simplicity is very much a feat that will only matter in edge cases to warrior classes. Most simple weapons already have a martial weapon which is either completely identical to what you'd get with Deadly Simplicity or only differs by damage type. A few of them even have a martial weapon which is _better than_ "this, but increase its damage die size by one." I don't doubt there's some characters for whom it can be a useful feat, but it's not much more than a flavor enhancer for a lot of builds based on the weapons they're naturally going to want.

[@Wotun]

I once used Investigator and Swashbuckler multiclass feats to make a scarily reliable triple attacking Magus, though it did require being level 14 and a lucky start of turn to fully work and pull off. From Magus I used the Laughing Shadow hybrid study as well as the Force Fang, Distracting Spellstrike and Hasted Assault feats. From Investigator I took Investigator's stratagem (fill in the other feat you need to take another dedication). From Swashbuckler I took the Finishing Precision and Combination Finisher feats (fill in the feats you need to qualify for that last one) The ideal turn with this setup would go something like this: Hasted assault is already active, and an enemy you can DaS for free is already within melee range at the beginning of your turn DaS as a free action If the DaS roll is good: Spellstrike the enemy (Distracting Spellstrike if you don't already have Panache) Cast and strike with Force Fang Finisher Attack at -6 MAP if using an Agile weapon Repeat if possible next turn

[@RexfelisLXIX]

Con, Dex, and Wis are inherently valuable because Saving throws. No matter the build, these three do not end at less than +4.

[@MrTallFrog]

I think you're being too harsh on the Witch. The dedication only gives you 1 cantrip because it gives you a familiar who can use 1 of its 2 abilities to give you a second cantrip. Also the basic witchcraft that lets you grab a level 1 or 2 feat (basic lesson) bumps up your familiar from 2 to 3 abilities as well. Also cackle allowing free action sustain on a spell is huge.

[@lemur_kf5992]

also you can pick a damaging familiar abilitiy later and ther are quite good

[@danielarmstrong7944]

Depending on what class you're playing, it's also relatively easy to add familiar abilities with another class feat and get up to 4 (or 5 with basic lesson). Maybe not worth it sometimes, but in a free archetype game that let's you get a ton out of your familiar.

[@okagisama]

About champion: what it grants is great, sure, but it's for far less actual characters than everybody is talking about. Why? Try getting +2 in both Str and Cha on your wizard without planning your whole stats around the archetype itself.

[@simonO712]

_Thank you!_

[@LordTridus]

The CHA is an issue. But since you know you will have armor, STR is easy as you don't need much DEX. But yes it's not a great one for Wizard. Easy for Sorcerer.

[@joejohnson9499]

As someone who's favorite pf2e character is a wizard with champion dedication, I agree that it requires careful stat preparation. That said, a wizard in full plate is suuuper enjoyable.

[@OpenWorldAddict0]

Ranger is actually pretty good on a mastermind ranged rogue.

[@peterconnolly1787]

You were asking what class would barbarian multi class be good on... Perhaps it would be good on an untamed druid?

[@rfactor1502]

You want to go ham with the investigator archetype? Jam it on Magus (Starlit Span) with the double-barrled pistol. OK low power ranged physical strikes mixed with cantrips and spells... but then when a good roll shows, so does a spellstrike with both barrels.

[@TriangleMan3]

The Ancient Elf Heritage allows Rogue Dedication at level 1. Put this on a Wizard with Elf Familiarity then the Sneak damage pays off as third action is now a bow shot that at low level can help pick off weak. (Great combo with Runic weapon)

[@curiouswind9196]

"characters + sped = gud" -Nonat 2024

[@grugspro]

Inventor or Swashbuckler with Barbarian subclass works well. Inventor does get mastery in Fortitude but at level 17, so taking it 5 levels early is a good deal, especially if there is a level cap on your campaign before level 17, and Swashbuckler only ever gets expert in Fortitude. With Inventor, stacking your Overdrive and Rage is fun, furiously running towards an enemy while wielding a weapon whirring with gears is a great visual. If you go for a gymnast Swashbuckler, tripping an opponent to gain Panache then doing a finisher pummeling them further into the ground is cool.

[@Chugganomics]

Ever think on doing a big Dual Class tier list? I'm currently running a Dual Class campaign that has been very successful and the combinations of classes are really unique.

[@martinwigham]

Maybe something to look at is how differently these would rank in a free archetype game? Yeah, fighter isn't offering a lot worth swapping your normal class feats for, but just getting loads of extra manoeuvres on any class using a weapon is pretty useful.

[@cargopenths]

Honestly only reason why I pick fighter dedication is to get agile grace feat at lv20 for Rogue and Precision Ranger. And for Reactive Strike on Rogue.

[@NoSXFaS]

This video reminds me of my bard with an alchemist multiclass. It was really squishy but also very versatile. It was a goblin adventurer who loved investigating things it was cool to me but damn, it would be even cooler now with the remaster!

[@simondiamond9628]

With Investigator's DaS being as good as it is, I kind of want to build an Eldritch Trickster Rogue now...

[@KenjiShiratsuki]

Gotta say, a Gunslinger Investigator is now my new life goal in PF2e. Thanks for making me want to create YET ANOTHER CHARACTER when I haven't playtested Magus or Kineticist which were my faves in 1e. This is the Second Time you've done this to me and I can't be happier about it. First was with Bard, and I'm loving that character.

[@user-klepikovmd]

Gunslinger investigator sounds like awesome noir protagonist

[@Lemiwinks55]

Funny you mention the investigator. I plan on using it with my psychic. It was for the flavour mostly.

[@eamk887]

Psychic obviously wasn't listed here since it's not in PC 1 or 2, but imo it's the best multiclass in the game, well, it used to be before remastered oracle. It's really good, with a single feat you get a cantrip AND a focus spell. And with another feat you get a second cantrip and focus spell, which includes the best attack spell in terms of damage.

[@jediprotector216]

My Investigator has had the DAS Natural 20 roll using it for Explosive Ammunition during a society game. 18d6 of damage with acid, fire and piercing.

[@Baraz_Red]

The PF Champion multiclass though has hefty prerequisites (+2 Str and +2 Chr), but it certainly looks absolutely worth it if it fits your character!

[@kyros905]

Ranger is actually great for any martial because of gravity weapon. There's no archetype that gives as much damage as this spell. Also, Hunt Pray double your range increment, só it is great for alchemist, they can throw bombs at 60ft lv1.

[@lemur_kf5992]

level 2*

[@aeiou6332]

I'm pretty sure that the panache has no base benefits, because stylish combatant AND precise strike are both separate, so rules as written panache on its own is useless, and it would not get bonus damage like you described until you get the finishing precision archetype feat. I think they meant to put stylish combatant in with the dedication feat (or at least either the bonus to speed or +1 to the skill checks)

[@SilverGhost0]

I think you gain a wizard school from the dedication so you can access feats that require you to be either a universalist or from a school.

[@christophandre]

The Bard Dedication can be really powerful in a long run if you plan to add the Shadowdancer Dedication (selectable at 8th level). On 4th level you can take the Multifarious Muse (by Basic Muse's Whispers) and become a Polymath Bard. This way, the Versatile Performance Feat is included (other than chosing it as your first Muse) and you unlock Feats for a second Muse. Since the Shadowdancer Dedication requires at least Expert Proficiency in Performance, you get a lot more out of this Skill. On 6th level, add Counter Performance. This Focus Spell uses your normal Performance Check instead of your spellcasting modifier, which is great if your main class isn't a spellcaster and don't gain higher proficiencies in spellcasting automatically. Also, you gain your first Focus Point! So when you select Shadow Magic on 10th level, you already have two Focus Points. Even if your main class is a Sorcerer for example, this is helpful, since you wouldn't get your third Pocus Point until level 10. So all in all, Bard Dedication and Shadow Dancer can be a really good combination for charismatic as well as sneaky characters.

[@CryoXerxes]

I know its probably due to it not having a remaster but Inventor Dedication is amazing and i believe deserves a high A tier. I started off a Dual-class campaign as an Construct-Inventor/Inscribed Witch, and due to some ingame story beats, his Connection to his Patron was disrupted and with party help and his mastery with frost magic and electromagnetism, he scraped parts of his Construct to create rudementary small scale railgun, and shifted my class to Inscribed Witch / Vangaurd Gunslinger with the Inventor Dedication, and honestly havent looked back. Even at lvl 7 the base Prototype Construct is still viable and not really much of a action sink since 1 action gives my Companion 2 or 3 if i use 2.

[@ukkosisku]

Regarding rogue dedication - you missed one of the biggest benefits of rogue ded, and that's Dread Striker feat for any ranged or caster classes. Suddenly, getting the target off-guard for your spells or shots is super easy, barely an inconvenience! Frightened 1 suddenly gives the enemy -3 AC, and that's a huge boon for casters who typically struggle to hit AC.

[@jamesmaclennan4525]

Psychic with Arcane Sense, Fey Influence and Cleric Dedication gives you a caster trained in every form of Magic and able to use every magical item in the game...Ok it's not super powerful but it is versatile especially when your party doesn't have a healer.

[@bloodearnest]

Minor correction: the Pursue a Lead Investigator ability only gives a bonus to Perception and int/wis/cha skills So no +1 for pickling locks It's basically good for recall knowledge and the charisma skills.

[@dix-neufcmsifredi2706]

Nice video, can a part 2 with the rest of the multiclass archetype be expected in the futur ? I am curious about the psychic :p

[@kilgoretrout6938]

Ok, I admittedly had a little bit of a weird build, but I played a gnome spirit barbarian with the fighter dedication in a long-running game for about 5 years (premaster, obviously), but I played her kind of nimble and defensive, taking advantage of some gnomish abilities to dance around my enemies (and give myself a rat familiar who we'd also use as a potion delivery boy) and the fighter's Reactive Shield to turtle up without having to spend an action to do so. Wielded a spellguard shield with a shield boss as my primary weapon and a returning trident for ranged attacks and/or whenever bludgeoning wasn't the right damage for the fight. Really versatile and powerful character and I miss her

[@KalaamNozalys]

I'd say the fighter and spellcasters dedications in general are better than you give them credit for. For casters, obviously simply for giving you access to magic. But for fighter, having access to some combat style feats on non martial classes (or ones that don't get other strike related feats) is pretty nice as a way to broaden their options with weapons. It is niche, but it isn't *bad*. Though as we get more combat style archetypes it becomes less valuable since those usually let you get those feats earlier.

[@TheGigaByte1010]

A Monk with the Barbarian Dedication can get master in all three saves thanks to it's Path to Perfection ability. The Monk can choose two of the three saves to gain master in and one of those to become legendary in leaving one just at expert. If you choose Will and Reflex as you PoP choices then you can take Juggernaut's Fortitude to raise it to master. Monks can also make the most of the Rage ability since they don't really have any ability's that have the Concentrate trait, unless they take Focus spells. Even those can be worked around as since they are Focus spells if you run out of Focus points then you just Rage. Finally most of the Instincts can work with a monk minus maybe Animal as your stances are just better but even then you could take it for versatility

[@rubenhovhannisyan317]

You forgot that rogue also if starts from stealth and deception - all enemies who go after you are flanked even if you reveal yourself, for the whole turn. 1d6 is also nice. Alchemist can get 10 vials each day with 3 feats which makes him broken and up to 15 with 4 feats. 15 vials a day keeps the enemies at bay. Or healer away, because soothing tonic is the best out of combat healing. Investigator with "person of interest" is broken too :)

[@Rashagar]

This does make me a little excited to recreate my PF1 Rage Prophet character.

[@absolutleynotanalien8096]

Psychic dedication is currently the best multiclass for the flames oracle. The upgraded ignition is just a massive buff when you're already spamming it. Any build will most likely benefit from one of the 12 cantrips.

[@jribolla]

There is a dual class alternate rule in PF2e - would love a video on that too.

[@christophandre]

The Ranger Dedication can be a useful addition for Druids. Especially for Untamed and Animal Druids. First, the Ranger Dedication also grants access to the Master Spotter Feat at lvl 12. As a second feat, you can use the Magic Hide Warden Spell for your companion or the Relentless Stalker Reaction and make use of your potential higher movement speed (or type!) of your Battle Form. Since the most interesting part of this Dedication is becoming Master in Perception, you can wait with selecting it until level 8 or 10. Also, Hunt Prey might not be that powerful, but at least the bonuses to Seek and Track can be really useful, since a Druid most likely will be one of the characters with the best modifiers for these tasks (especially with Master Proficiency in Perception).

[@LowinBayrod]

Some of my favorites combos (not all with those multiclass btw) - Ruffian rogue with champion, for a tin can that can really canned your enemies(sorry for that pun) - Eldritch trickster rogue with Oscillating wave psychic with amp frostbite, start combat with an amped sneak attack frostbite to get a lot of temp hp for the combat. - Forensic investigator with medic, that battle medicine gives a lot of hp now. - Investigator or investigator dedication with assassin's otherwise subpar "assassinate", out of combat thanks to stratagem you can take out guards stealthily and reliably.(if your DM gives huge level & hp to random guards to screw you, tell him I think he's an unfunny douche) -Starlit span magus with artillerist and some hirelings, because ballistae want to spellstrike too. -Magus with the scrolls feats and alchemist dedication, for a lot of free daily consumables. -Gunslinger with ranger, one of the few class who really want that long range. -Swashbuckler with pirate, for the heck of it.

[@LordTridus]

Oracle did not go the way i expected it to, but you're not wrong. It's sad how a full Oracle and an archetype Oracle can use their curse abilities exactly as often until level 11.

[@avlaenamnell6994]

the witch archetype can atleast prep both its cantrips with the familiar ability to prep another one, still leaves a familiar ability free. and you do get a 3rd ability fairly early to

[@shoulung6203]

I'm thinking that maybe looking at how different class combinations function depending on which you choose to main should also be a consideration. I'd go for a Rogue with a Monk multiclass over a Monk with a Rogue multiclass, for instance.

[@welcometogeektown]

I was wondering if you think any of these change if you're specifically playing with the "Free Archetype" rule. A number of times you mentioned having to use class feats to get these, but if you're getting them from your free archetype feats, does that change the math for you?

[@AgentForest]

Sorcerer is one of the best archetypes if you just want more spell slots. Great on like, a Psychic or Summoner who wants to pad their spell slot totals. I'm still furious the Inventor archetype doesn't get Overdrive but Barbarians get Rage. It's a very similar mechanic. I'm hoping the remaster addresses this. I mean, your dedication "innovation" already lacks any initial modifications, so it's already a weakened version of the Inventor. Leaving it out takes the core identity away from even picking the dedication. Investigator dedication is crazy strong paired with Alchemist, since you can calculate your bomb trajectory before you throw so you don't waste consumables on missed shots. And yeah, Fighter/Oracle Dedication is so damn good.

[@TheSkullFrost]

I personally think the Witch archetype deserves a bit more love. Yes, being limited to 1 cantrip isn't the greatest, but it should not be understated how useful a familiar is, even with just 2 abilities. Play a bard with your familiar accompanying your performances, a rogue with a little friend handing you lockpicks or acting cute to distract from your lies and if the 1 cantrip limit is truly that bothersome, simply use one of the familiar abilities to get Familiar Focus and use the second for something else! I've always felt that familiars as a mechanic were under valued, they can be a huge boon mechanically, while also opening the door to a great variety of roleplay/story possibilities :)

[@hanshansomahammau]

With the playtest release of starfinder 2e, do you plan to make a similar list for those 6 classes? pf2 and sf2 are compatible iirc. would be interesting to see your take on starfinder's new multi class options.

[@hellfrozenphoenix13]

Could be interesting. I wonder if they will keep the higher power level for SF2e. I hope so, personally, as it gives a familiar-but-different kinda feel

[@Mokey_MokeyLordofPuns]

You should go over the Gestalt character options

[@Iceblade269]

Idk if Alc is S-tier. +2 Int is a tough sell on a lot of classes. It makes me want to make a Ninja monk that throws bombs, but then I’d be more MAD than already was.

[@Jermbot15]

The Arcane spell list is great. Wizard multiclass is at least C tier just for that.

[@Gristoufle2]

I would have liked to have the graph representation of the tier list (as advertised in the thumbnail)! Great video nonetheless

[@warmwaterpenguin]

*cries in neglected Thaumaturge*

[@Ciran87]

I now want to build a Sparkling Targe Magus with the Champion archetype.

[@humanoid-ur3gf]

Now I'm thinking of a thaumaturge that has the book implement and a rogue multi class

[@Logetastic]

Witch Dedication Familiar is weak only. Compared to other Witch Familiars. It gets 2 feats. You can take Basic Witchcraft to get 3, which also gives you a Witch feat.

[@vineveer4358]

Monk with the barbarian archtype? 'cause monks get to choose their saving throws and can focus more on will/reflex, relying on the archtype for fortitude.

[@grimsbeast]

Well now, it seems to build the Druid Paladin of my dreams, start Druid as base, take Champion Archetype....good to know.

[@lokitakahashi3042]

someone cant recommend a fighter archetype is someone who has never played a alchemist in P2e

[@ryanmcmenamim9871]

Need to move beyond player core 2. Thaumaturge archetype is crazy potent, and I have a magus in my game that's wrecking shop with a psychic archetype.

[@shadedergu9921]

I think the fact that a lot of the highest power parties that do not have a Bard will oftentimes really push for one of their players to archetype Bard to take Courageous Anthem when it becomes possible should push Bard up to S. If it has features your party wants one person to multiclass for if that class is absent I believe it is S

[@hellfrozenphoenix13]

I disagree. An argument can be made for many things working in just the right comp, but then we are looking at it from a "best case" situation. A Cleric dedication could be clutch for if the party is lacking a good healer or rogue/investigator if they are missing a skill monkey. I do think A is fair for a bard. It gives great benefits, but spells can replace the need for them as well

[@frostfire8490]

Plz don't use this to skip around, watch the full video as I did cut off some stuff so you may miss some context; bard 2:00 cleric 3:25 druid 4:28 fighter 5:23 ranger 6:51 rogue 7:45 witch 9:18 wizard 10:30 alchemist 11:30 barbarian 13:17 champion 15:35 investigator 17:57 monk 21:16 oracle 23:40 sorcerer 25:44 swashbuckler 26:42:

[@ogun6464]

I wonder if you're overestimating DaS, it seems really uninspiring on casters with the attack roll limited to strikes. Maybe fishing high rolls for third action social skills, but unless I'm missing something it seems S at best, not clearly the best archtype in the game

[@LAMerolle]

Alchemist (mutagenist) + barbarian = beast

[@0utryder500]

Maybe I missed it, but where's the actual complete tier list? Having a visual aid / reference is good :)

[@Dalzak]

one would expect from paizo that in order to do a remaster they could at least avoid mistakes like the oracle multiclass (+conflincting spell list)

[@hammerspace8866]

I haven't look at any of the remastered pathfinder 2e books, so my knowledge is a bit lacking. How good is the new multiclass alchemist? I recall the old multiclass alchemist was pretty meh because the potion level you could make was dragging way behind and took multiple feats to get it up to level -5 at level 12. Not quite sure why you'd rank many spellcasters at D-tier. getting access to 2 cantrips is pretty usefull on it's own. I think most spellcasters have a a feat that only does that. Also I assume that prepared spellcasters get to choose their 2 cantrips every day. For a non magic caster having acess to a decent cantrip spell should be pretty usefull.

[@drabheart9426]

Exacting strike on a barbarian, hunted shot on rogue. Gravity weapon on anything with power attack. Is the investigator that useful against a single target fight?

[@alanreece2687]

Am I misunderstanding the Oracle archetype rule? You can only get the feat and curse associated with your chosen mystery. Grabbing Whispers of Weakness is only available for the Lore and Ancestors mysteries; so you'd have to get one of their curses as well.

[@Nonat1s]

None of the level 1 feats have a prerequisite of needing a specific mystery. That's the main problem. Every mystery gets one of these feats for free, but any mystery could take the other feats at higher levels. Same goes for archetypes. The only thing tied to specific mysteries is the revelation spells and curse effects.

[@eamk887]

Not sure where you're getting the idea that you can only get the feat associated with your mystery, nowhere in Whispers of Weakness does it say you have to have either the ancestors or lore mysteries. The mystery just gives you the feat for free, like how cleric's doctrine gives you a certain feat for free, but both doctrines can still get the other one's feat later on. That's why any oracle, including those who took oracle dedication, can take it; it's just considered an oracle feat.

[@quark12000]

Should have given Investigator F also. It's just too overpowered and metagamey, like the class itself. Also, would have been nice if you had put up a final tier board as some visual reinforcement. Still a great video overall. Appreciate your analysis and enthusiasm.

[@mikegould6590]

Does the Finisher bonus damage for the dedication stack with, say, Rogue sneak attack?

[@wperdew6078]

I only played 2nd ed a handful of times, in society play. I have 5 chronicles which I have yet to build a character with. Ive played 1st edition for a very long time, and hey, still do..its just that if you want to play in a Con, it has to be 2E. Also, i lost my 2e CRB, whiich i read through back in '20. So yeah, i suppose i like the multiclassing idea (LOVED it in 1st ed), and maybe its an idea for that society character ideas for a character? What books would i want to get to actually play now?

[@a.h.s.3006]

Ranger: "Worst dedication in the game" Nope nope. It is one of the best out there. They have a very low entry fee compared to move martial multi-classes, only requiring +2 Dex and no second attribute. That means that almost any class or build that does not rely on heavy armor for defense can take it. Gravity Weapon is straight up buff, every first weapon strike each turn gives you up to +2, +4, +6, and +8 to damage depending on the number of weapon dies. This is more than Barbarian gives you with Rage, and no Clumsy like Giant Instinct, it is assumed you will start with +4 because you can get it at level 4 when you have the striking Rune. And it works with all weapons, no agile restrictions. Twin Takedown sure has worse to hit compared to double slice, but precision damage applies to both attacks, so a Rogue taking Ranger would casually deal twice the precision damage if they both hit. And since remaster, Flurry of Blows became limited, this is a better action compression for weapon users than the action compression Monk archetype would have. Far Shot increases the increment itself, this stacks well with Monastic Archers and Throwing Swashbucklers whose attack range is strictly limited to the actual increments. That means that a Swashbuckler could do 40ft Stunning Finisher with a Throwing Knife and Monastic Archers can do 100ft Stunning Fist or one inch punch or whatever it's called now. Snap Shot allows Reactive Strike with Ranged weapons Animal Feature gives wings when heightened Soothing Mist is a rather good healing and offensive spell And you can get Ranger's resiliency for more health points. Ranger is underrated.

[@jonwashburn7999]

Will you be doing an update to the other archetypes?

[@philopharynx7910]

You can't devise a stratagem on a spellstrike because it is not a strike. They have a sidebar on how actions that give you a strike are not strikes themselves. You could devise a stratagem and use it for a normal strike if it's good or use a new roll on a spellstrike if it's not.

[@Nonat1s]

Technically no. "Spellstrike" is not a strike, you're correct, but you still make a strike as part of Spellstrike. Since Devise a Stratagem says "If you strike the target", that strike gains the benefit of Devise a Stratagem. Spellstrike isn't getting the benefit, but the strike that is *part* of Spellstrike does. I hope that makes sense!

[@philopharynx7910]

@@Nonat1s Do you have any backup from the devs on this? I've seen other arguments, but the sidebar seems directly against this. If this can be used for any action that contains a strike, it opens up a lot of really gross combinations. Subordinate actions on 415 of PC1. ". As another example, if you used an action that specified, “If the next action you use is a Strike,” an activity that includes a Strike wouldn’t count, because the next thing you are doing is starting an activity, not using the Strike basic action." I also bring up Ambiguous Rules on 39 of PC1 "If one version is too good to be true, it probably is." When you get to decide to use your highest level spell slot after rolling a crit, that is probably too good to be true.

[@eamk887]

@@philopharynx7910 The thing is, that rule you referenced from page 415, works completely with the notion that Device a Stratagem works on Spellstrike. The difference with your referenced rule and Device a Stratagem is that your rule specifies that the *next action* has to be a Strike, so you're right, Spellstrike wouldn't work, since it's not the vanilla single action Strike. Despite this, Spellstrike still works with Device a Stratagem, since Device a Stratagem only says "if you *Strike* the target", it doesn't say "your next action has to be a Strike", or something similar. With Spellstrike, you just make a vanilla Strike, with some additional effects, but it's still a vanilla Strike, so Device a Stratagem does work with it.

[@philopharynx7910]

@@eamk887 There are a lot of actions that do not call this out with that exactitude of phrasing. Paizo prides itself on being precise without getting into arcane language.

[@kadmii]

surely though, Wizard and Investigator would do well together, being INT based... right?

[@alessandrodellanno948]

How does it work in the remastered with class DC? If i multiclass in something that use different schools of magic (occult rather primal or divine)?

[@clanpsi]

Anyone who plays without Free Achetype is playing PF2e wrong.

[@Baraz_Red]

One second, if I understand well, you need to be level 8 to take a level 4 Fighter feat as a multiclass. Likewise, to take a level 12 Fighter feat multiclass, you would need to be level 24, no? Or is that the rule only for "dual class" or "free archetype variant rule" ?

[@FormerRuling]

Rogue only getting A tier when its consistently one of the best multiclasses for just about any build makes me wonder what he gives S-tier lol.

[@FormerRuling]

Okay, I can vibe with Alchemist now that you get full scaling for your Advanced Alchemy. (Pre-master your advanced Alchemy was stuck at lvl1 items until you took a bunch of feats to barely bump it up)

[@lemur_kf5992]

"Sneak attack feat is miserable" what It's WHOLE plus 1d6 damage ti damage if team setup is right

[@Midgaardsormen]

Pffh... my monk/witch Hairboxer is awesome! Investigator seems like a nightmare for the GM in general

[@davidriggs538]

D-tier for the Fighter archetype seems too low considering how good Fighter feats are. Reactive Strike at 4th level is really good. Low level Fighter feats like Snagging Strike and Combat Grab are also really good.

[@ukkosisku]

Monk Moves is kinda nothing, when you can accomplish that with a level 5 wand of tailwind + trick magic item skill feat. Skillfeat and gold, or level 8 class feat? easy choice.

[@philmacdonald9703]

Would personally rate cleric a little higher. My Fighter/Cleric with Channel Smite at lvl 8 rocks