Norman Finkelstein on I'll Burn That Bridge When I Get to It (3/31/23 book talk)

On March 31st 2023 as a part of the 2023 Platypus International Convention, Dr. Norman Finkelstein presented his recently released work, I'll Burn That Bridge When I Get to It! Heretical Thoughts on Identity Politics, Cancel Culture, and Academic Freedom (2023), followed by Q&A.
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The Platypus Affiliated Society organizes reading groups, public fora, research, and journalism focused on problems and tasks inherited from the "Old" (1920s-30s), "New" (1960s-70s), and post-political (1980s-90s) Left for the possibilities of emancipatory politics today.
www.platypus1917.org

[@user-ks7bb8xx1d]

It's good to see academic platforms 'allowing' Norman "back" - I hope they do this even when he questions the history and presence of Zionism.

[@dabay200]

Always love it when Prof. Finkelstein is allowed to speak his mind without interruption - such an interesting amazing person.

[@gordonbartle1466]

Courage, tennacity, endurance. Not many like him.

[@user-hk2gk7pj8h]

I looked up the word "fearless" in the dictionary. There were no words on the page, only a full page photo of Finkelstein.

[@edwardjones2202]

I'm glad he's teaching again. He loves to teach more than anything and this was taken away from him for many years.

[@shanihandel9621]

Thank you for hosting Norm. We need more of him!

[@Drforbin941]

I so respect Norman Finkelstein

[@jonathanhansson804]

I love his energy, speaking truth

[@stevenhines5550]

Finkelstein explains the meaning of sacrifice and calls wokeness laughable and contemptible; "radical" audience stunned into silence. Good job Norman - right down the pipe; that's right where wokeness belongs.

[@ericparis224]

100

[@The.Marauder]

Truth teller Norman Finkelstein.

[@iz5327]

Great Man, how rare human like him. Just tell the truth. I think we all know that majority of people in the planet are not intended to know the truth. God bless you Professor.

[@ericday4505]

Once again Norman speaking truth, one of the best political minds of our time, he should be a national treasure, yet he is never on MSM. Some folks don't want to here truth.

[@himkay5752]

It's wonderful to see Professor Norman doing well and speaking to the audience again. He looks healthy, sharp, and witty.

[@TheChromanoise]

Yeah. But he only found his audience when he gave up his life’s work, the Israel Palestine conflict, and pivoted to whining about wokeness. A phyrric victory.

[@peabody573]

@@TheChromanoise or maybe you’re just wrong

[@TheChromanoise]

@@peabody573 I’m right. He barely got any play the last three years when he was pontificating on Israel Palestine. Now he is on mad shows whining about Fox News bullsheeit.

[@charleerowlands7250]

@@TheChromanoise He has had an audience for years, unlike yourself.

[@TheChromanoise]

@@charleerowlands7250 wrong you Vietcong corpse. He was barely getting any invites the last two years until he started his Fox News bullshit.

[@elizabethanderson2968]

The scholar's scholar... a man DEEPLY rooted in humanity, logic and steadfast integrity, who can see right through these fraudulent, turbulent and disturbing times. Ain't but a few of em' Left (In both senses)

[@filippomilani2746]

Thank you Dr Finkelstein! 👍

[@FrancisE.Dec.Esquire]

I was alive in 1956, and watched the McCarthy and Khrushchev both on Waco Texas Black & White Television.

[@joesabet2001]

Amazing discussion. Not sure how he does it without notes or anything!

[@zainmudassir2964]

Norm you're Great 👍

[@circuittoys]

just ordered Normans book.

[@Danielle-zq7kb]

1:17:25 None of us outside the federal and state government have sick days anymore. It’s all PTO - hour vacation days and sick days are one thing even for salaried workers. We need massive changes in this country because we can’t all work for the government.

[@marycollins8215]

Thank you.

[@davida.bishop4024]

Breath of fresh air!

[@Caligula138]

Love the title of the book 😂

[@user-ni5hd1ky2j]

Mr Norman Gracias por sus conocimientos y compartir con nosotros hombre Magnifico❤❤❤

[@michaelmappin1830]

Ty❤

[@atticushatfield9948]

The line sarcastically comparing Judith Butler changing pronouns to the Chinese/Bolshevik revolution had me dying😂

[@Liberty-rn4wy]

I agree with Norman that we have to tolerate and listen to the other side. I am right-wing libertarian but often listen to things on the left to understand better. It also helps me understand any weaknesses in my own position. It also shows that the left isn't a monolith and has various ideologies and streams.

[@user-hk2gk7pj8h]

This is the kind of strong minds we need in academia, not the bunch of pushovers that run the system these days.

[@radscorpion8]

As a pushover I agree

[@Doyadance]

he is so handsome 😇

[@charliedw100]

A GREAT read. Extremely well documented (as per usual with NF), and hilarious.

[@AxmedBahjad]

Would you share your takeaways from the book by Norman?

[@charliedw100]

@@AxmedBahjad Let's put it this way, I wound up rereading Elmer Gantry for some of the references Norman made in his book. Yes. I'm not informed enough to say I'm 100% in agreement, but on most of what I can relate to, he's spot on, per usual. My beefs with the Democrats might go a little deeper than his, especially when it comes to Bernie and how I feel he let a working class movement die ... twice. Norman is much more sympathetic to him than I am now. I burned a lot of coin on him and the so-called "squad." They (Dems) will never get me again. I'm not sure Norman feels that way. The identity politics game is absurd and I feel he nailed that. I'm not sure about the pronouns issue he has. I'm more lenient there, but I feel he's right about how identity politics has divided the left. I'm with him on Obama, perhaps a bit less caustically. I'm totally with him on academic freedom. It's become a mess, from the left as well as the right. I've read most of his works and his documentation is overwhelmingly strong. Du Bois, Douglas, Baldwin ... powerful stuff.

[@AxmedBahjad]

@Charlie Stella Thank you for sharing your anger directed at the Dems. Norman has this foresight to see what is happening.

[@SandraMartinez-ko5qx]

Sharing! Needed out there.

[@mack7518]

Salute to you sir NF 🫡

[@radscorpion8]

YAY PLATYPUSES ps norman finkelstein is the man

[@sylviavasquez9523]

I want to know the book he's talking about (Rosa Luxumbourg) because I want to read it!

[@AbtinX]

He usually talks about one in particular; socialism or barbarism

[@rallypojken]

Norman the beloved!

[@user-hk2gk7pj8h]

Wow, his comment about the wealthy woke at 25:04 is SO TRUE!

[@shanihandel9621]

Wonderful. I can see that the audience was surprised/disappointed that Norm seemed to give legitimacy to the Dems. I can see myself asking that when I was younger too. I’d say that he’s just being real. The revolution is simply not around the corner.

[@billwolfe6638]

Sorry, Norm denounced the Dems. He noted their history in New Deal coalition with labor, but exposed their betrayal of the working class in favor of Neoliberal corporate finance capitalism.

[@antonimonti6902]

Norman just explained why in the US there will NEVER be a class uprising anytime soon ....collapse of such a project would be a first prerequisite....

[@MalAnders94]

I've thought this often times before, but Norman and Tim Leary look so similar.

[@stonefruitmedia]

The jaw

[@stewiezjonder3924]

Amazing intellectual

[@inafern]

What is the ideational content of calling Goldberg or Kendi hyper-stupid?🤔

[@meshzzizk]

Is that a like a ZoomH6 with wireless mic connection?

[@sylviavasquez9523]

He was so scared about his colonoscopy----glad he survived!

[@user-hk2gk7pj8h]

I like his t-shirt. Who is that a picture of?

[@radscorpion8]

Its John H. Willcombs-Booth

[@AijazAlfaz]

J S Mill

[@jonyspinoza3310]

25:25 Did Norm Finkelstein just drop a Coolio gangster paradise reference?🤣

[@lestersmiley1781]

1:04:38 so… did Norman’s segment on Glenn greenwald’s program ever get aired? I can’t find it. Sounds like it didn’t match what role Glenn wanted norm to play, it would be great to be able to see. I think his position that speech that lacks any idea should not be protected is wonderful but I would like to know if there’s a standard to go by for determining what he views as the part of the speech worth protecting in an academic context…

[@lestersmiley1781]

I guess he spells it out here 1:07:26 … it’s just “verbal clubs”

[@shanihandel9621]

In the book (which I HIGHLY recommend) he gets into the weeds on all kinds of scenarios, and delves into the AAUP's policy, traces it's historical evolution etc.

[@646oleg]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/hWbZm4uebcaHrNk

[@Bansell262]

Finkelstein is God. I have to get this book.

[@Lobishomem]

That what’s said about Eric Clapton and I completely disagree.

[@cactusqltr]

What the Hell ?? Being “AWAKE” has nothing to do with having locs, Norman!!

[@Ichorof]

Which Julia movie is he referring to?

[@xrawna5189]

💕💕🇵🇸🇵🇸👨‍👩‍👧🏡

[@stephenharris]

Always appreciate videos of Norman's appearances! Having said that, his scatter-shot delivery was quite disorganized here. Would probably be a good idea to prepared remarks in advance and then field questions.

[@ilhamrahim9269]

55:26 this is misleading because the Nazi party also had not only petty bourgeois followers but also actual workers, one of the most important struggle of the NSDAP was winning the workers of Berlin from the KPD

[@AbtinX]

I don't know, initially it was petty bourgeois and military veterans

[@HahaDamn]

Fascism is a product of the workers movement

[@ilhamrahim9269]

@@AbtinX it was that does not change the fact that it had a base in the German proletariat

[@rgzhaffie]

They never "won from the Berlin KPD" more than a marginal percentage of workers. They held a Kabuki theater version of Mayday in 1932, and only managed to dragoon any workers to attend by dint of threats and trite blandishments.

[@AbtinX]

@@ilhamrahim9269 that's not true in the early days of the Nazi movement the base was similar to what you would have found in Iran during Khomeini's revolution. Petty bourgeois. As the movement grew things changed that's true, that's all I'm saying.

[@kopeinokai5370]

The fictional millionaire was John Beresford Tipton. Mark Antony was his employee who handed out the checks on his behalf

[@Zatzzo]

"What's now called wokeness is steps forward towards a more caring, egalitarian, just society. It sometimes goes overboard but on the whole it's been a very positive development." - Noam Chomsky

[@LeftArchivist]

Really not a fan of the moderator cutting off Norm's story about his family having to stand in the back of the lecture hall.

[@stealthhumor]

I would love to hear Norm's (or anybody else's) take on Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s entry into the presidential race when Maryanne Williamson is already committed. Is it a murder-suicide pact without the pact?

[@baranpourtahmaseb-sasi1421]

In various interviews regarding recent events in the Middle East, I think it's safe to say he's not very impressed by their seeming parroting of official Israeli talking points, and that being a greater reflection of their individual character.

[@MatheusLegenda]

I agree with Norman that not all Republicans are necessarily fascists, but I do not believe that he should rely on solely Trotsky’s definition.

[@thetruthis24]

I I love when the moderator ass stops Norman thousand money to get my questions throughout the hour and 10 minute mark 😂😂😂

[@mamamia6925]

Who is on his shirt?

[@PlatypusAffiliatedSociety]

John Stuart Mill.

[@dog_biter]

the "radical" private school contingency is why I can't have anything to do with the "struggle".

[@RoyalKnightVIII]

8:44 Robeson was not wrong but he didnt have proof that Khrushchev lied

[@Jaykilljoy-tt9tt]

As a leftist I was always against the SJW movement from the beginning and a large part of that was exactly what Norman has said "The two went HAND IN HAND. What happened with identity politics is they LOPPED OFF the class aspect and just kept the identity aspect." I was part of the "New atheist" Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, and Christopher Hitchens, atheist youtube community back in the 2000's and 2010's....and I was very progressive and so was the atheist community. I was openly supporting gay marriage and from what I saw the atheist community I was involved with. Atheist shows, Harris, Dawkins, Hitchens, youtube atheist channels, etc were all very progressive. Talking about prison reform, talking in support of gay marriage, speaking out against sexism and misogyny. That is exactly how it was....then the SJW thing hit and we got "Atheism+" Which was basically the SJW movement which was beginning to spread in the wider culture, entering into the atheist community and as a progressive and leftist I was not only confused...but disgusted and and very disappointed. I was incredibly confused because I was like "The atheist community was already incredibly progressive....WHAT THE F**K IS THIS SJW SH*T?! All it's doing is dividing people." and of course several of the atheist who joined in on the "atheism+" aka SJW atheist movement LEFT that side of the movement because they realized how lunatic and poisonous it was. In fact a widely beloved atheist leader who made a name for him self within the community was challenged. He was told basically "if you go on this Atheism+" website under a fake name, you will immediately be banned and get attacked, slandered, for simply asking reasonable basic questions. So he created a fake name, asked a very reasonable basic question and was IMMEDIATELY banned and slandered. Called a racist, a sexist, a right winger, etc all over the website. He actually ended up calling them so "venomous" they weren't able to recognize friend vs foe. Which is obviously true. Here are all the reasons why I was anti SJW from the very beginning. 1.Taking class politics out of leftism. 2.Authoritarian. Just a carbon copy of the right wing. As I always say - SJWs are just Jerry Falwell with an "L" painted on their faces. One of my issues with religion and in particularly the christian fundamentalist is pretty much identical to Christopher Hitchens. Which is "I am against fascism and authoritarianism of any stripe. I have a fundamental issue with that." I see no difference between christian fundamentalism and North Korea and the god of the bible is a fascist dictator who's actually WORSE then any dictator to ever exist. I see zero difference between SJWs aka "wokism" vs the fundamentalist right. Back in the 1920's, the right wing passed a bunch of laws regulating skirts. Cops would stalk beaches with rulers, stopping any female they suspected of having a skirt that was too short. They were against the 1920's sexual revolution. Anti flapper culture. They were literal victorian prudes...and this goes back to my childhood and childhood trauma. Ever since I was traumatized in elementary school I've had a deep seated hatred of prudes. The 1980's, satanic panic. They were against horror movies, music, cartoons like He-man, the smurfs, etc. The 90's and 2000's they were against video games....why the f**k would I support a so called "left wing" version of that?! Authoritarian prudes who want to dictate MY LIFE and everyone elses?! 3.Intellectual laziness and intellectual suicide. Bullying tactics. Which I absolutely despise as an atheist, pseudo intellectual, and leftist. 4.Total f**king posers who aren't serious about the issues or the movement. 5.Giving the right wing AMMO against the left. The right was smart to SHUT UP for half a decade and point to the SJW movement to go "See. They are the snowflakes. The right has ALWAYS been anti authoritarian and for free speech. Just IGNORE decades and decades, even CENTURIES of the right being authoritarian book burning free speech haters who want to dictate your life. Anti gay marriage, anti rock music, anti cartoons like He-man, satanic panic, anti video game, anti horror movies, etc." Because we all know how short term of a memory Americans have. It was a great right wing con job. Point to the SJW movement which is clearly insane, stupid, silly, and wrong and then say "Join the right because we aint like that....FOR NOW." and of course an ignorant 15, 18 year old who doesn't know anything about the 1980's, 1990's, or even the 2000's because they were just children would fall for that. 6.Blatant racism and sexism. Against straight people, white people, men, but also against the people they CLAIM to be supporting. They are so f**king condescending. Reminds me of Phyllis Schlafly who was against the ERA. She wasn't just against the women's rights movement ie feminism...she was sexist against men as well and part of her anti ERA was due to her sexism against men. This SJW "radical feminism" of "Women are these delicate little flowers" really angered me, as someone who's always been for women's rights. I DON'T think women are inferior. I am also pro sexual liberation and I also saw a lot of sex negativity within the movement. Anita Sarkeesian was in fact a sex negative feminist....but it's even worse then that because it was all contradictory. It was "Stop slut shaming" mean while they slut shame on a daily basis like Anita Sarkeesian. It was self contradictory. There was one SJW video where this "feminist' was using a pseudo scientific claim about brain scans to tell women what bathing suits they are allowed to wear. Again, WHERE HAVE I SEEN THIS BEFORE? THE RIGHT. PRUDES. Now the "LEFT" is saying it?! DON'T F**KING TELL WOMEN WHAT TO WEAR! 7.Easy as hell to exploit; black separatists, and islamists. Why do SJW feminists defend one of the most sexist religions on the planet? Why did we see islamists infiltrate the SJW movement, where they would advocate for Sharia law? Claiming that Islam is a pro feminist religion despite the sickening sexist and misogynistic islamic laws in the middle east?! BECAUSE THEY ARE RACISTS. Because they interpret "muslim" as in "minority" as in "arab" because they are racists. And I saw SEVERAL obvious and blatant black separatists within the SJW movement and of course NOBODY ever used the word "black separatist" the SJWs never used that word, but if you actually listen to these SJWs who were black separatists or supported black separatists, they were blatantly using black separatist rhetoric and ideology. And going back to "sex negative feminism" ....I also never saw that phrase either. I never once saw someone call them selves or use the term "black separatist" or "sex negative feminist" BUT they were willing to spout it to their audiences. That's dog whistling. That's a scam. That's a bait and switch. That is a tactic commonly used by cults. Where a cult will never tell you out right what they actually are or support. Several cults, like the "moonies" several followers said when they were joining they had NO IDEA they were joining the "moonies" Had no idea they were suppose to worship Reverend Moon. The right does this all the time. Using third reich rhetoric without telling or admitting it. I saw a news story where a teenage girl, her grandmother was in the third reich. The youth unit and she called her granddaughter out. Telling her "sounds a lot like what I was taught" by the third reich. The granddaughter didn't realize she was parroting third reich talking points and ideology. 8.The SJW movement was incredibly insular and just like the right wing and other groups like cults were just "We are fighting for our biggest piece of the pie." It wasn't about fighting for humanity, human rights, class struggle, etc. It was all about "fighting for our biggest piece of the pie" and as I always say "Great for YOU, but WHAT ABOUT THE REST OF US?!" This is NOT about your FRINGE GROUP. This is a HUMANITY issue. This is a freedom issue. 9.Again, just like the right wing and cults; totally f**king two faced. To quote the joker "They're MORALS. They're CODE. It's a bad joke. Dropped at the first sign of trouble. They're only as good so long as the world allows them to be. I'll show ya, when the chips are down these civilized people; they'll EAT EACH OTHER." They have no integrity. 10.Ammo for the elites. A total smoke screen. "Hey, I'm a radical feminist who supports gay rights and BLM; NOW BACK TO THE SWEAT SHOP, SLAVE! I'm paying you $5.00 an hour! I aint payin you for nothin!" and just as Bernie Sanders has said....it's a great wedge issue. Let the people fight among eachother while I run off with ALL the money. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! THE PEASANTS ARE REVOLTING against eachother. NOT ME!!!!! HAHAHA! it's a total scam. I watched Metropolis last year and I loved it. Still incredibly relevant. I highly recommend watching Metropolis. A leftist masterpiece. My favorite dialog from the film is when the elite who schemes to prevent a worker revolt says he wants to replace the worker's leader with a fake robot "I shall sow discord between them and her!" Which aptly describes my feelings about the SJW/Wokeism movement.

[@lindyswing4368]

Julio ?

[@just4music687]

Reparations is not "representation," it's based on material conditions. All people can unite with the colonized working class and the liberation of African, Indigenous, Palestinian people, and the liberation of all colonized people. It's not a difficult concept. Real revolutionaries don't present an ideological facade to win the masses; their theory and praxis is based on science and material reality and is falsifiable; not a "dream" or "wish."

[@rickyblair6233]

Russia wasn't the first country to legalise homosexuality not by a long shot; true they legalised in 1924 under Lenin then criminalised again under Stalin in 1933 and would remain so till the breakup of the USSR. Ottoman Empire did it in 1858, France 1791 and several other European nations as well as countries that have no history of criminalizing homosexuality like Vietnam, DRC and Japan except the brief period of the Meiji restoration from 1872 to 1880.

[@edwardjones2202]

How come you know all this? What about Thailand?

[@thebrocialist8300]

Prof Finkelstein: Presents solid arguments SJW: “Did he seriously just the N-word?!” 😡😭

[@54tristin]

Aren’t you through throwing your own people to the wolves for profit yet?

[@dog_biter]

Norm will probably not learn to listen in his lifetime,,he's a legend but needs to be respectful of timing

[@Nat-Con]

When he talked about pronouns, no one dared to laugh, lest they offend the gods of transgendarism. he should debate amy wax, thanks mr finkelstein for introducing us to amy wax

[@nothingmatters321]

So we are meant to believe Angela Davis never wrote about class?

[@TheChromanoise]

Also wokeness is the most pernicious disease in the world apparently.

[@shanihandel9621]

Norm was a huge fan of Davis. He tracts her trajectory in his book (I highly recommend it), and how she basically sold-out. She absolutely did write about class, and his complaint about her is based on how far she has strayed from her original politics.

[@nothingmatters321]

@@shanihandel9621 Thanks, I will have to read the book. I share many of the criticisms of identity politics here, but I can't help Norman suffers from a kind of moralistic voluntarism when it comes to class politics. That is, being jailed or kicked out of academia is evidence of an authentic politics, while secure placement in academia is evidence of "selling out." I don't think he really addresses the reasons why socialist, or Marxist politics were unable to respond its Black feminist critics (at least here).

[@HahaDamn]

@@nothingmatters321 what are you talking about, he does by saying they never adequately addressed the race and woman question - didn’t you watch the talk?

[@nothingmatters321]

@@HahaDamn I'm saying he hasn't really given an argument as to why black feminists (let's say from the Combahee river collective), should have remained socialists in the traditional sense he advocates. He simply said the old left dealt with issues of class, gender, and race. But the critique that emerged during the time of Black Marxist feminism stressed that this approach to race and gender was, in effect, carried out in bad faith. Moreover, he in no way answered the critical question regarding Bernie Sanders' style of democratic socialism, or of the re-framing of class politics as identity politics.

[@creativecatalyst777]

Wow! I'm shocked that Finklestein was so wrong about the legalization of Homosexuality. I was NOT the Soviet Union (not even close) I was FRANCE!! He's losing credibility fast concerning FACTS. Very disappointing.

[@ChannelMath]

I absolutely love this man. But on this transgender (non-)issue, nobody disagrees with Dawkins: nobody claims there are more than two sexes. So I don't understand the intra-left row over this. So people want to invent new genders. So what? It doesn't affect me, or 99% of people, at all. If someone identifies as a furry, I'll respect them if they deserve respect based on the qualities that actually matter, like honesty and integrity. I'll try to call someone the pronoun they want, just as I try to call them the name they want. I happen to be not very good at remembering either, but it's never a problem, because it's obvious to people that I don't care. As far as I can see, it's only ever a problem when people willfully use the wrong name or pronoun for the purposes of insulting you or your lifestyle or something. That's just how people are and have always been. Many people have been literally killed throughout history for addressing someone "improperly". Thankfully, that almost never happens anymore. So for the 100th time I ask: what is the deal? What is the problem? What is the issue? And does it deserve all this time we devote to it? Is it an intentional distraction from important issues?

[@shanihandel9621]

There are a lot of reasons that this matters. Overall it's a distraction, but it also has huge impact. For a very basic start I'd look at the controversy in Scotland. And yes, people absolutely are saying that there are more than two sexes, or that sexes don't exist. I work in an academic department, with people who collect data, and the premise that sex doesn't exist, and should not even be recorded in stats, is expressed regularly. The ACLU claims that male bodied people (this is another reason this language stuff matters- it becomes difficult to discuss the issues), don't have a physical advantage in sport over female bodied people. The high court of England had to make the "belief" in biological sex a protected speech, because a woman was fired for saying it (on Twitter, not even on the job). This is absolute garbage, and low hanging fruit for the right. I'd place the importance of this issue into three parts 1) the over-emphasis on transgender people/language etc. is a distraction from economic issues (aka it's totally lib) and those concerned with it are very aggressive, some of the biggest proponents of pile-on/cancel culture, so destructive to the left, 2) there are areas of law where this makes a big impact on women's rights and 3) it's low hanging fruit for the right- and is being used to further their larger goals of imposing a theocracy on all of us.

[@ChannelMath]

@@shanihandel9621 other than referring to the rare cases of genomic difference from XY or XX, I can't find anyone saying this. In 1) you are kind of saying what I'm saying, You're just blaming the other side of the argument, but it takes 2 sides to argue. To 3) , I'd point out that you could say the same about defending Jews in 30s Germany, and I'm sure people did. Isn't truth or justice or freedom more important that what popular? As for 2): Where does it make a big impact on women's rights? thanks.

[@thurstonhowellthetwelf3220]

The claim is "trans women are women", as such it is discrimination not to give them womens privileges, ie access to women only spaces, womens prisons, womens sports, etc, to qualify you simply self id, that is say the words, I am a women... so the sex class of women now includes men.. Many people argue this is incohent and dangerous..

[@ChannelMath]

@@thurstonhowellthetwelf3220 I don't see how all of that is just automatic. All of that is assuming we definitely need two of everything, one for each sex/gender. Take prison. We already separate the more dangerous prisoners from others, or the ones likely to cause disruption. So already there are not just two sides of the prison, there are many. Just to continue to do that. Sorry, but I don't really care if a prisoner is squeamish about being in the same bathroom with a trans person, something we often have to do on the outside, where we even have unisex bathrooms in some cases. There are worse things about prison (to say the least), things we should maybe fix. As for sports, this is a total non-issue for me personally, though I can see how it would be important to those involved. I just think each sport should be free to define itself however it wants, and the rest of us should stay out of it. Already they are considering things like hormone levels etc in some sports. Fine, it's always going to be arbitrary anyway. Sports are arbitrary games with arbitrary rules, and they are not important issues by the very definition of "sport". How is it fair that in the Olympics smaller countries have a built-in disadvantage? (and it's easier for people from there to participate). It's arbitrary. With individual sports (most sports), there is zero issue. People can keep the standings any way they want. We can have several gold medals. Is this really an important issue to you? There may be other issues, so I could be totally wrong, but these are the two you brought up

[@thurstonhowellthetwelf3220]

@@ChannelMath telling children they may not be their born sex and putting them on medical pathways that are experimental and dangerous to "transition" will eventually be seen as a very big medical abuse scandal. As for women's specific rights being infringed, listen to womens testimonies about prisons, sports etc.. not all men that claim to be women are good actors.

[@trevorsmith8950]

It was really bizarre to hear Norman loftily invoke the revolutionary legacy of Rosa Luxemburg to mock Judith Butler for using they/them pronouns. It came off like parody.

[@garrettramirez428]

Given that Putin's denial of they/them pronouns is part of the left-liberal rationale for World War III, I don't find it bizarre at all.

[@Triumph2024.]

The world is a parody of itself these days, Norm's just pointed out some of the reasons why.

[@cjhunt9532]

Seems like Norman Finkelstein- and Cutrone* seems to do this too- reacted to early critiques of his manuscript with the glee of "haha! this proves I'm right!" instead of with any adjustment of his points. This is juvenile. Verso rejected it for the clearly rambling and inconsistent and contradictory** nature of these arguments, and instead of adjusting the book he evidently said "Pooh pooh! You're too WOKE for me, Verso!" and published it anyway-- complete with juvenile jabs in the chapter titles and terminology borrowed from the right (and popular with its growing fascistic elements in countries like the US and UK) in what is supposed to be a leftist and a seriously intellectual text. The result: some fumblings toward solid critiques of the paradigm of the liberal "left" in America, buried in the aesthetics and rhetoric of an old man yelling at a cloud. The historical claims he makes here are also hazy, though I'm sure his research is better when he's writing vs speaking off the cuff. It's hard to talk of "the first place to legalize homosexuality" when there are places it was never illegal to begin with, such as Vietnam. *The back of Cutrone's book on "the death of the Millenial left" is covered in "praise" of people saying it's terrible. I guess he thinks that's funny, but nothing could make me want to read it less. So I didn't, and maybe it's good. But if so, get some people to actually say that and stop being silly and snide. **What do I mean by "contradictory?" Oh, how glad I am you asked. So on the one hand: -"The left has always cared about the Queers! The Soviets legalized being gay!" And yet on the other hand: -Deliberately misgendering Judith Butler C'mon Norm, this is childish. You don't have to like them as a philosopher-- and I don't either, really-- to refer to them how they ask. It's really super easy. And I totally agree that there's nothing revolutionary about them coming out, but that's kind of my point: it's no big deal, so why can't you just get it right? Refusal to do so makes your claim that the class-based Marxian left has always been the vanguard of Queer liberation feel like a lie-- even though it's actually not.

[@cjhunt9532]

And yes I am the CJ Hunt that spoke at this conference

[@shanihandel9621]

The book was absolutely brilliant, funny, and touching. I’m not sure why you care about pronouns or why you’re attacking him for his age. The non-binary thing is stupid. Oh no?! People of all ages and politics and (gasp) of both sexes agree. Did I just oppress someone for saying that😂?!

[@roccos2311]

Nobody deliberately misgenders anyone, it’s just impossible for sane people to keep all of the rules straight with your fanatical ideology. Go back to Reddit with this shit. Norm rocks

[@cjhunt9532]

@@shanihandel9621 You're essentially proving my point. If the line is that Queer people don't need "woke" identity politics because the Marxian class-based left is already defending them (which SHOULD be true) then Finkelstein's fans should actually be doing that-- evidently you're not, though. And I do enjoy the hypocrisy of your outrage at my "attacking him for his age" (which I didn't-- I said he was using the rhetoric of an old man yelling at a cloud, not that he WAS one) juxtaposed with your glee at his below-the-belt insults of his own adversaries.

[@stevencoardvenice]

Fink is just tired of writing his exacting books. He's having fun

[@alexthepirate201]

What a joke Norm has become. Seems like he doesn't practice what he preaches.

[@Johnconno]

A Maoist? He doesn't look Chinese.

[@emilianosintarias7337]

He actually kind of does look chinese, if by chinese you mean one of the 56 ethnicities of China

[@Johnconno]

​​@@emilianosintarias7337Now you mention it 2:19

[@nigelralphmurphy2852]

Homosexuality was first decriminalized during the French Revolution in 1791. The next nation to decriminalize homosexuality was the Ottoman Empire in 1858. Russia did decriminalize homosexuality in 1922, although gays were still persecuted and sacked from government employment, and was recriminalized by Stalin in 1933. So, another lie. Disgusting. Liar, liar, pants on fire.

[@lindyswing4368]

Interesting

[@mikekimveteran]

So what, Norm is an elite like Angela!

[@shawnrhaweh4582]

Can I axe u a G- d question?? Midway thru... does someone have a G_d MIC 🎤 opening n closing sht??? Like closets?? For f Jesus f christ

[@FozzB2386]

In shorth the crux of Norman's gripe here seems to be that Black people made a real political calculus that maoists did not, and as such, benefited from a marginal improvement economically and, as such, currently does not stand in the same radical circles we used to be. White people never martyred themselves on behalf of class issues the way black amerricans have. And unlike white people we are not victims of poverty, we are victims of theft. Therefore our solutions will differ. To compare trans identity politics to the clearly credible pathway of neo liberalism is a bad faith comparison here.

[@Triumph2024.]

So, your contention is that thanks to the 'calculus' you mention, black people made 'marginal economic improvement' enough that they don't need to be radical or revolutionary? This is all news to me, so can you tell me what year or decade that economic improvement occured for black people and how? If African Americans started doing better as a people, economically, then compared to what? And to what are you attributing this improvement? If there's now a swelling black middle class made up of former or would-be black panthers now living in Yonkers and other suburbs, then where are you hiding them?

[@inafern]

@1:01:00 how bizarrely naive to conclude that Fox was nice to Bernie because he comes across as genuine. Could it have anything to do with the fact that he is splitting the Democratic vote😂

[@sicnarf423]

This guy has terrible takes

[@mikekimveteran]

Norm a Maoist? He never carried a rifle! Hahhaa. He was part of the spoiled baby boomer elite group who avoided service in the Vietnam War. Norm needs to read Wallace Terry's book Bloods and he will understand the essence of Wokism. This book came out of the Vietnam War. It led to the Black Vets for Social Justice Movement still strong today. This was highly inspired by identity politics. It is just not the identity politics Norm is not aware of because he is an academic elite wearing several masquerade costumes. Norm can learn more about Black Vietnam War troops who were made to fight in an unjust war. Identity politics helped Black Vietnam War Vets claim their contribution to the American war misadventure Norm was able to evade. Identity politics cannot be reduced to Kendi and a few others tied to the Post-George Floyd Murder. Norm is an elite who criticizes other elites. He won't own his elitism. I respect Norm's intellectual prowess but his attack on Wokism hides his own elitism. He needs to be thankful for Wokism because it prevents folks from going all out violent revolution. There are many different expressions of Wokism. In my view, Identity politics goes back to feuds between Hamilton and Jefferson. They are asking what are Americans. They covertly engage race with their questions about national identity. Yes, identity politics tied to Color and Class. What was the Battle of Fallen Timbers all about in 1799... ????? The last battle of the Revolutionary War. American Identity!!!! George Washington deploys to destroy the Native Americans without a friendly speech of identity politics by Washington shared in the Whiskey Rebellion (1794) but no peaceful speech after the Battle of Fallen Timbers. And, the real agenda of President George Washington pushing for his White agenda against Native Americans from the Miami and Shawnee tribes. There are many expressions of Wokism back in the early period of America (USA), there was a White Nationalist Wokism tied to extreme violence . The present Wokism is no way near as violent as earlier expressions of Wokism. Wokism is American as apple pie. Norm is a great entertainer! He should consider acting as another career!

[@TheChromanoise]

I like how this old man is portraying NY times not tolerating racist books as a negative.

[@narwhal7642]

LOL, apparently there is a correlation between wokeness and comprehension.