Norton's Route - June 4, 1924

[@michaeltracy2356]

Comments are limited to approved users and graduates of the Yeti Academy. Questions or issues should be raised on discord: discord.gg/M7WVh5wp

[@darknutgaming5510]

Best series on YT currently. Keep up the great work!!

[@graywz]

Fascinating video. Thanks Michael, for a factual and coherent analysis of the route.

[@Talpiot8200]

You know it’s a good day when the Michael Tracy noti dings. I appreciate all your work.

[@iR3vil4te]

Exceptional content as always - what incredible men these were! I have no doubt upon reading great literature such as Norton's Fight for Everest that, just as they were so much more eloquent and intelligent than modern climber-writers, so too were they men of greater spirit, drive, and ability than practically anyone who came after them, and subsequently it leaves me in doubt that someone like Mallory summited. It only heightens the tragedy that he and Irvine did not make it back alive.

[@bolshoefeodor6536]

Brilliant stuff, as usual, Michael. I really want to see someone take the zigzag. It really seemsnthat next to (left flank) of the prominent buttress roughly straight above the couloir, there is a break and a ramp that looks like it might yield relatively easily. It has to have, since we are pretty certain M&I did reverse/retrace their route at least back down to the ice axe level. Question: is there any possibility M&I might have tried - as Dougal Haston and Doug Scott of the 1976 Bonnington SW Face expedition did - try to hang on through the night in a makeshift bivvy, to resume the descent in better light? It would explain frostbite, leading to a fall? Did they perhaps spend 6-8 hours trying to last till dawn, then realising they were becoming too hypothermic and O2-deprived, they resumed descending, but now in a much more dire state?

[@michaeltracy2356]

In general, when you sit down under those conditions, you don't get up.

[@bolshoefeodor6536]

@@michaeltracy2356 True, but those conditions seem virtually identical to those experienced by Dougal Haston and Doug Scott in their 1976 summit area bivvy. Difference being Haston and Scott suffered no permanent ill-effects from their overnight bivvy. M&I would have suffered horribly, as you note, leading them to abandon attempts to bivvy, and proceeding on with the descent? I just wonder, how long at that altitude and in those conditions, would it take for fingers to begin turning black? Forgive my ignorance on this.

[@bolshoefeodor6536]

@@stewartjohnking It did, actually, as earlier mentioned by Michael, and shown in photographs of Mallory's remains.

[@robertmartin8565]

Mallory and Irvine did not descend together. Leaving Irvine at the 2nd step, Mallory made his way to the summit. Realizing how late it was, Mallory descended down through the couloir and traversing the north face where he took a short fall. Irving, realizing Mallory was not coming back, retreated back down the ridge route where he disappeared. Mystery solved. George Mallory, first person to summit Everest.

[@Labrador7]

@@robertmartin8565 interesting theory but didn't the rope found around Mallory's waist looked like it had snapped?

[@ericclaptonsrobotpilot7276]

1:20 wild perspective. Never seen that one before.

[@billcook4768]

I know glory goes to those who make it to the top, but what these early climbers did with the equipment they had and their lack of knowledge will always impress me more.

[@ArmedWithMonkeys]

Thank you for explaining why the altitudes don't match up! It explains a bunch of confusion I had trying to match descriptions to images

[@tylerrichards6456]

Love this video and I am anxiously awaiting the feature on the zigzag! One question though: If Mallory was intending to follow Norton’s suggested zigzag route to pass around the head of the couloir, why would he elect to take a higher, unknown traverse from near the ridge where the oxygen bottle and ice ax were found rather than the straightforward, known-as-feasible traverse that Norton had taken a few days earlier? It seems like quite a risk of wasting time on a dead end ledge before ever having a chance to come to grips with the true crux of breaking through the cliff bands beneath the second step.

[@nellyx1x493]

I had always assumed that in the famous photo used at 5:00 of Norton heading towards the couloir taken by Sommervell, that what we are seeing is a dramatically skewed perspective where the dark trapezoid shape angling down form the top left corner is a very distorted view of the whole main cliff itself that leads from the second step - with the second step itself clipped from the left and the distortion explained by "the tilted camera has greatly minimised the steepness of the slope" as noted. My assumption (which could well be wrong and open for debate) is that the obvious vertical cleft/gully that spans the dark cliff starting directly above Norton's head in the photo, being almost vertical and angling slightly to the left- could be the gully that Wager & Wyn Harris attempted in 1933, just that it appears very different to how we normally envision it from the side-on view of the face, where it appears more of a scimitar shape angling to the right often in shadow. The one they roped up to attempt to enter the shallow scoop but were brought to a standstill at once, finding it "a delusion, a mere shallow scoop in the smooth walls"...before continuing on towards the couloir. If this is correct (I might be seeing things), and your route description seems to be in agreement - once significant foreshortening in the clear air is accounted for, then it would give a fairly accurate indication of where the photo was taken from.

[@jdw6925]

I found it interesting that Norton and Somervell's route passes fairly close to the spot where Mallory's body was found.

[@114D]

I love how concise you are and the detail is amazing. I’ve learned a lot from you over the years. Thank you.

[@TheSaxon.]

It's amazing with all the photos I've been viewing recently, how even when taken from the same location, the face can appear a gentle scramble or vitually sheer. I know it's mainly the later but it must be confusing for newcomers and non climbers. It doesn't look too bad on the photo but in reality, Norton can't afford a misstep on the vast majority of this traverse.

[@GeographyCzar]

Brilliant!

[@glennmurray.]

Excellent video.👍

[@jeffdehoog8204]

Hi, good work. I've been wondering a lot about your theory about M and I using a back pack to carry the O2 bottles. Wouldn't Odell have mentioned that he found most of O2 harness in the tent rather than just bits and pieces? Also I think the O2 bottles would have shifted around a lot in a backpack, perhaps throwing a climber off balance. Those harnesses have to be somewhere. All the best

[@michaeltracy2356]

Odell described significant pieces of the frames being left behind. He says the parts of the frames were both inside and outside the tent. The frames were left in camp. As they would be caching bottles, they would not be carrying them for that long. You are also using your own naive belief rather than facts. All modern climbers do not use oxygen harnesses. They put the bottles into a backpack and the Sherpa who carry far more bottles do as well. While it is a nice theory that people would not do this because it would "perhaps throw[] a climber off balance," it is contradicted by thousands of people who have done just what you claim they would not do.

[@jeffdehoog8204]

@@michaeltracy2356 ok, fair enough.

[@rogjackson]

It's nearly imossible to think that Mallory wouldn't have had Norton's Route on his mind. Is it fair or more than fair to say that Norton's Route was a breakthrough? Not just in proximity from summit, but also in the psychology of what was known to be possible at the time? I lack knowledge on this point but it would stand to reason from what you and others have previously shown or described. Interesting indeed. This is thought-provoking. Good work.

[@griffith500tvr]

Additionally Irvine would not have been able to climb the 2nd Step, neither Mallory I suppose....

[@griffith500tvr]

I don't know who started this 2nd Step theory, Odell?

[@jaym8027]

When a slope is described in terms of percentage, it helps to remember that this refers to the tangent of the angle of the slope. So a 70% slope is defined as 70/100, or 0.7. This means that the slope rises 70 vertical feet for every 100 horizontal feet of travel. (Any units will work, of course.) A calculator or trig table will then allow you to find that this works out to a slope of 35 degrees. While this doesn't at first seem remarkably steep, it may help to picture standing at one end of a football field or soccer pitch with a twenty-one story building at the other end. At 28,000 feet altitude. My mountaineering experience was limited to the American West, where mountains don't even reach the altitude of Everest Base Camp. My respect for what these men accomplished is almost unbounded. My apologies if this little explanation was simplistic, I hope it helps with visualization for some of the non-mountaineers here. Michael - thank you for another very, very helpful analysis of the early Everest expeditions.

[@CharlesFreck]

Anyone that doesn't think 35 degrees of slope is significant has never had to climb up 35 degrees of slope while carrying a pack haha. Once you've actually climbed that sort of slope, even a small one, you'll realise how physically exhausting climbing such a tall mountain must be. I think I climbed up a maybe 30 degree slope once, on a path, and carrying a pack (it was just hiking) I felt it may have well been 70 degrees.

[@Ronin-ke5wm]

I've always thought this route might have been the descent route used by Mallory and Irvine. I think they followed that diagonal route down, to just above the snow field where Mallory was found, and thats where Mallory had his fall and slid down the snow slope to his final resting place. Of course this raises the question about the ice axe but Mallory or likely Irvine could have dumped it on the ascent for some reason.

[@michaeltracy2356]

You don't slide down that snowfield. If they did fall at the top of it, they would come to rest about 20 feet lower, get up and keep walking. The reason the ice axe is there is because someone dropped it when they fell. It is not just a coincidence that Mallory's body is directly below the ice axe.

[@gumbyshrimp2606]

Facts!

[@KDSima]

How tall was Irvine?

[@huskerjpg]

Based Mallory 's rope injuries, do you have a theory as whether Irvine or Mallory fell first?

[@michaeltracy2356]

A good question, but you have to be careful in knowing what you know. We don't know what Mallory's injuries were - rope or otherwise -- because the 1999 team will not release the photos and videos of the find. What we know is what the 1999 team told us, and based on other statements, this "information" is extremely misleading. For instance, various people from the 1999 team claim Mallory showed no signs of frostbite. But on old photos, now deleted from Getty Images, the hands and foot show clear signs of frostbite. So, we don't know anything about Mallory's rope injuries because I would not base any assessment based on anything the 1999 team says. They have the photos and the video. Likely, those would tell us a wealth of information about what happened. But until I see them, it is pointless to rely on someone telling me only what they want me to know. Frequently, you can rely on what people tell you. But these people have demonstrated over and over again that they are pushing an agenda and will alter the facts to fit it. Just look at what they did with the oxygen bottle -- it has moved 6 times now so that it can support their version of the story.

[@griffith500tvr]

Your explanation of the route that Mallory took, indicated by the oxygen bottles high on the ridge, does mean that M&I were in the death zone (I don't like that term) or low oxygen zone for longer than Norton was, which surely did not help their chances of success.

[@michaeltracy2356]

You assumption virtually guarantees their success -- perhaps check your math and try again. How long was Norton in the "death zone." How long was Mallory in the "death zone." If it is greater than that first number, it pretty much guarantees they made the summit. Also, you might want to look up the definition of "success." Nor sure if you have watched all the videos, but Mallory and Irvine die. They don't make it back down.

[@griffith500tvr]

It must have been quite tough for them to turn around there, difficult terrain or just hopelessly tired or scared stupid...

[@lifesahobby]

Michael , when they found Mallory his legs were crossed . If he was to leave a sign before he died , what would X mean ..

[@michaeltracy2356]

Buried treasure?

[@auzmo]

@@michaeltracy2356 that reminds me of the Monty Python “castle of aahhhhhhh”

[@garysmith5641]

he wanted a piss?

[@BS2Dos]

👍👍

[@probablynotmyname8521]

The chinese should put some stairs up to the top of the mountain.

[@lifesahobby]

👍

[@davidhn2364]

It's very difficult route...tenzing route is safe

[@michaeltracy2356]

What year did you climb it?

[@denverfletcher9419]

Just noticed this line from TD Pollard's video on "The Great Everest Mystery of Mallory and Irvine": "... possibly find the camera that we know George Mallory and Sandy Irvine were thought to have carried with them ..." Hmmm. kzbin.info/www/bejne/r4KngXidiaylhdE

[@garysmith5641]

Route ! please pronounce it properly , you are pronouncing an army beaten and running from the enemy .

[@JohnDavidHays]

“You like potato and I like potahto You like tomato and I like tomahto Potato, potahto, Tomato, tomahto” That’s from a song titled, “Lets Call the Whole Thing Off” which, come to think of it is probably what you mean . . .

[@garysmith5641]

@@JohnDavidHays no I mean say Route if you want a safe route out of here , not Rout we are all fleeing and being cut down by our enemy , or to remove a slot from wood , if you pronounce Route Rout , how do you pronounce Rout ?

[@kippamip]

@@garysmith5641 Americanism for you. Being English I totally agree, but I guess it's a colloquial thing. They chose a route. The enemy was routed!

[@garysmith5641]

@@kippamip Michael is ruthless if you dont get things right , so Im gona behave the same . Pronounce things Properly its not Americanism its the wrong way to pronounce it simple , as you then have no word for Rout

[@garysmith5641]

@@kippamip Route 66 is American , not Rout 66 so im afraid Americanism does not work , its just wrongly pronounced

[@TheFlairside]

Must be nice being the worlds smartest man