Not a Tongsheng! TOSEVEN DM01 and DM02 Mid drive motor discussion and ride footage

Quite a few people are commenting on the similarity between the TSDZ2 from Tongsheng and the DM02 from TOSEVEN. There is a look at the main difference here. I have been invited to post questions directly to the designer so if there is anything you want to ask post in the comments. Also in this video are my observations on both the DM01 and DM02 motors as well as TOSEVEN in general. You can also chat about TOSEVEN on our discord server. / discord
Timestamps
0:00 - Introduction
0:23 - DM01 Discussion
2:42 - Not a Tongsheng
5:49 - DM01 Observations
6:26 - Torque Sensor
8:26 - Throttle
9:19 - Thermal Performance
10:50 - Wiring
11:32 - Modification
12:00 - Gear and Brake Sensors
12:53 - Mounting
13:18 - Display
13:58 - The Controller
14:46 - Q Factor
15:12 - Potential
The High Voltage upgrade kit for the BBSHD can be found at highvoltagekits.com/hv-shop/p... please make contact to order via the form on bottom of the page.
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/ @highvoltagekits

[@quijadriss7650]

You responded to a comment of mine recently and I looked this motor up. My first thought "this looks just like my tong Sheng". Then I stumbled across this.

[@HighVoltageKits]

There are some similarities on the outside. It was designed by the same person who did the Tong Sheng design.

[@H-habilis]

Thanks for making this great series about these new TOSEVEN conversion motors.

[@HighVoltageKits]

You are welcome.

[@lukewalker1051]

You are killing it John. Very informative that you believe the DM-01 has better torque sensing response than the Bafang Ultra motor. Thanks for sharing your insight and hard work with us. PS. Hopeful that the DM-01 will motivate Bafang to not go down the path of CANBUS for the BBSHD...but likely wishful thinking. Right now we can work around the CANBUS controller as you have taught us with an aftermarket controller. Competition is great for the consumer.

[@HighVoltageKits]

It has better response than the ones I have tried for sure. Maybe Bafang will change course. It would be nice!

[@nigelnightmare4160]

@@HighVoltageKits Bafang is very good at Shooting themselves in the foot. To all intents and purposes Bafang have been the only go-to supplier of mid drive motors for aftermarket upgrading, I don't think they'll change until it becomes financially painful to them.

[@user-pv6hk9pd5y]

i just want to give my appreciation of this channel. I like how detailed you are with taking the motors apart showing each component. I have a cyc gen 1 currently as it was on sale, but i see myself getting the photon here in the future and I wouldn't have even thought to get a middrive if I had not found this channel. Very appreciated. If you are still looking for a name on this toseven, then I'll throw my suggestion in the pot. I was thinking Graber unless someone else is already using that. =)

[@HighVoltageKits]

I will pass the name on for sure. Glad you are enjoying the channel. Cheers

[@electronicsworkshawp]

Its so great to see you doing mid range stuff.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Its what will make the difference.

[@tamholt3494]

Very cool to see they improved the air-gap thing, I just learned about that last week. Can't wait to see the DM02 in stock

[@HighVoltageKits]

Same here. I never looked at the Tong Shen as I heard it overheated. This explains why.

[@ryoukokonpaku1575]

​@@HighVoltageKitsit definitely overheats if you go around at consistent 750w. It's realistically 250w/500w motor in pratice imo. The reduction gear is also a common failure point too. This looks much better it seems.

[@nc3826]

need a comparison test, to see how much greater heat dissipation it achieves.... plus removing a press fit motor is not going to be fun... need a full teardown and various comparison testing... to see if it's worth the higher price point it's selling for? imo

[@ryoukokonpaku1575]

@@Alex-uh1mj That sounds really promising in that case. The internals itself from the videos I've seen do hint on better heat dissipation and overall build, but having confirmation of practical use is better. Is it possible to cap peak wattage still? Is it possible to cap the motor power draw? So I can have better range numbers as I do quite long tours with my tsdz2b that's tweaked with OSF for 250w nominal, but would like to order the 500w version for flexibility when I want to use a different setting profile for those cases where I want more power than range.

[@Alex-uh1mj]

@@ryoukokonpaku1575 yeah you simply cap it in the menus at whatever you want. You could put eco at 100w city at 400w and sport at 900w. Whatever you want its easy to set it

[@JohnSmith-ch9lp]

Thank you for the vid. very informative.

[@HighVoltageKits]

You are very welcome

[@navidmehdi6]

This is actually a dream motor. Full DIY with torque sensing and decent power. Let's go. Although I won't buy it as I have the bbs02 if I were to buy a new motor this would be it

[@HighVoltageKits]

If its not broke don't fix it. By the time you are ready the kinks will have been ironed out as well.

[@treimar]

I'm rooting for the DM02.

[@HighVoltageKits]

I will get it back on the bike post firmware fix.

[@lokz9632]

Me too. 500w 48v is the plan.

[@ryoukokonpaku1575]

Same, definitely something on my radar to replace my aging tsdz2b

[@ukrytykrytyk8477]

I really appreciate the effort you are putting into the videos! Very detailed and informative, helping many in their decisions of which motor to go for. I would be interested in serviceability of the motors for example how easy is to replace the nylon gear, controller etc. Also what is the average power consumption per km on a mix use fixed route. And lastly what is the realistic sustainable max speed for each motor. Thank you.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Good questions. Appreciated.

[@ianbourne4084]

After seeing the firm stator fit, it's looking better, If a few fins might boost it a bit, confirming there are bearings both sides of the bottom bracket/spindle would be one wish, are the chain rings standard centers, would they be upgrading to splines on the spindle ends? Great work, you're boosting my confidence in this motor... the 02 specifically.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Thanks for these. I will go alot deeper on how it's built next week.

[@duck154]

that discord ping at 4:25 scared me

[@HighVoltageKits]

Whoops. My bad

[@mantasriauka1035]

Maybe I missed it, but what about DIY repairability? Bafang and Tongsheng have spare parts and youtube guides on repair available. CYC prefers to do the repair themselves, where you send the motor to them and get it back. What about Toseven?

[@Alex-uh1mj]

Spares will be available

[@HighVoltageKits]

It felt pretty straightforward to take it apart. I will ask questions on repairs.

[@abaddonknightgames2546]

What a great video , I still waiting for my mottors and enjoy when looking your tests !! And one more another question, from what city is author? I see you are from the Canada ,so may be we are really close to , becouse I live in Toronto and like riding in Hamilton areas.

[@HighVoltageKits]

I used to live near Ottawa and in Kingston. I have been to Toronto a few times though. I live in Kamloops these days. Hopefully you get your motors soon!

[@hindesite]

Does the larger gear casing permit the use of 34T chainrings with correct chainline, or does it follow what Bafang have done?

[@Alex-uh1mj]

No it doesn't. Sorry about that. Lowest currently is 42

[@ukaszcieplak5717]

Thank for the video! I would like to know more about a similarity in controller between DM02 and TSDZ2. In TSDZ2 there is a possibility to update the firmware to the opensource what improves the feeling and it's just better than original firmware. Are there any crucial changes in the electronic? Would it be possible to modify firmware on DM02?

[@HighVoltageKits]

I will do my best. I don't think the firmware is interchangeable, though. The firmware, I think, can be modified. I am sure lots of people will work with it once motors start to go out.

[@hindesite]

Bet if the display was rotated 90 degrees it would be readable with polarised sunnies. Bit of a mistake by the display manufacturer there. Or just turn your head sideways :-)

[@lokz9632]

Good question

[@HighVoltageKits]

I have seen some photos with it sideways. I will experiment and see if it makes a difference. Thanks

[@hindesite]

@@HighVoltageKits just rotate your sunnies to test, the SW102 CYC display has the same issue. Some people can't see it if their polarised glasses are aligned wrong.

[@billweaver3867]

Maybe switch to non polarized glasses and save putting your neck out! 😂 All polarized glasses are oriented to deal with reflection from the horizontal. The display screen is obviously giving out polarized light - all LCD displays do, I think - switching the orientation should be possible for Toseven but bit of an "own goal" because this problem is pretty common knowledge.

[@hindesite]

@billweaver3867 not all polarised glasses. Some are circular polarised not linear.

[@garywozniak7742]

I have a TerraTrike Rogue recumbent trike. It has an Enviolo City Hub that is rated for 50nm continuous and 75 max. I ordered a DM02 kit for it thinking that it would be enough motor for the application and that the DM01 would probably be overkill and be too much for the hub. However in one of your video I saw that you had overheating on your bike installation and switched to the DM01. Do you think the DM02 will be adequate on the trike ? The Rogue has 20" tires and a 42t drive ring, no front derailleur. I orded the DM02 with the 42t drive ring thinking that I probably wouldn't have to modify the chain.

[@zhuyouan0412]

To me the most annoying defect on the old TONGSHEN is the spindle develops play after only several hundred kilometers, though you can live with that, spindle play is no fun at all. Hope the new motor improve on that part.

[@HighVoltageKits]

I believe it has been altered. I'll confirm next week.

[@nc3826]

1) How is the DM02's press fitted motor removed from the housing? (It's nice to have the greater heat dissipation, but it's more complex to do any type of maintenance or repair on the DM02's motor).. 2) Sprag clutch on the TSDZ2b is upgraded from the original TSDZ2 version. So is the DM02 an improvement over the upgraded TSDZ2b sprag clutch and how? Plus, stator oil is used for heat dissipation for e-bike hub motors and motorcycle alternators. Do you know of any mid-drive motors that use it? I look forward to the full teardown of the DM02.

[@HighVoltageKits]

I will ask about these parts. With the ferrofluid stuff like statoraid. There is nowhere to really put it in a mid-drive. Maybe with an outrunner but there are not many of them. It might work with the Photon. That would be interesting.

[@nc3826]

​@@HighVoltageKits Stator oil, heat dissipation methodology is fundamentally different from ferrofluid, such as Statoraid. But yes an outrunner mid-drive is potentially a candidate to utilize Statoraid, if there's no additional air gap. To impede the heat dissipation path, such as between a inner and outer housing. So a teardown of the Photon would be fascinating and would address that question. While for the TSDZ2b adding a mineral oil bath for heat dissipation, similar to how it's used in a transformer, seems most appropriate.

[@ianbourne4084]

And lights... is it easy to add lights to it's standard loom? About 50% of my commuting is either before sunrise or after sunset on hilly, windy country roads... I want light. Especially going down hill.

[@HighVoltageKits]

There is nothing on the loom right now. I will ask about plans though.

[@philflip1963]

Thanks for the video. I'm interested in how the torque sensor works. If you were to stand on the pedals with the cranks in the 3 and 9 o'clock positions would it activate the motor or have the manufacturers implemented a system to prevent this happening. You deserve the support of the manufacturers since you are providing them with good publicity, at present a DMO2 is my favorite prospect for a purchase.

[@HighVoltageKits]

As it stands they would trigger. I think a brake cutoff is essential here. There might be a balance with the sensitivity

[@ryoukokonpaku1575]

​@@HighVoltageKitson the tongsheng with osf you can calibrate the sensitivity of the sensor. It should be possible to calibrate how much torque on the pedals is needed before the motor engages if they expose it as a setting.

[@philflip1963]

@@ryoukokonpaku1575 Thanks.

[@Frombie_01]

@@ryoukokonpaku1575 I'm not really sure that would work for some (me). I have a tendency to track stand at lights or any other time I have to stop momentarily.

[@user-eg6ii9tb7t]

Í⁸

[@embededfabrication4482]

I keep getting messages on discord but I can't figure out how to read them, it just goes to the thread. do bikes need heavier rims to make them more stable at high speed maybe?

[@HighVoltageKits]

I'm using DT Swiss with no issues. In general, vehicles that go faster need to be built better.

[@nicholaschai4458]

This should fit a foldable bikes too right,thought of building one for my wife.

[@HighVoltageKits]

As long as it’s a British thread bb I think it will.

[@noboru6598]

I've had the tongsheng for some time and have had multiple failures. Controller crapping out twice, blue gear stripping and iffy torque sensor. Also, the mechanism that keeps the motor in place (bolt and piece of metal); that bolt has stripped a few times and sometimes the metal piece provided is not wide enough for some frames. It would be interesting how this motor is more reliable other than the heat dissipation issues which surprisingly I haven't experienced. Also, what would be the distribution center be for Canada.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Distribution is being sorted out with a dealer network. I will cover quite a bit of the issues you mention shortly.

[@nathangant7636]

I'm running 56v on my Bafang BBS02 with no apparent problems with over voltage (no error #07). Can the DM01/02 handle the 56v batteries? Otherwise I'd have to go for the BBS02 again or the Tongsheng TSDZ2B 52V 750 watt motor. Although after +1200 miles on the BBS02 with those voltages, I recently did have to replace the controller but not sure if that was an over voltage issue or something else with the MOSFETs.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Ok. I think you must mean a 52 volt battery which has a peak charge of 58.8 volts when fully charged. Both motors can run this type of battery. I have used on with mine so far. The 01 can actually accept a higher voltage with a 60 volt nominal battery. That would be 67.2 volts fully charged. The way its done is each individual cell has a maximum charge of 4.2 volts so at full charge your battery will have 14 of these in series. The 4.2 volts combine together to give a total of 14 x 4.2 = 58.8 volts.

[@nathangant7636]

@@HighVoltageKits No, I'm using the 5aH 56v Echo batteries which are manufactured internally in 14s packs. I believe that would produce about 58v or 59v with fully charged 18650 lithium ion cells (as you note, 14s x 4.2v = 58.8v). These are well made batteries normally used in the 56v series of Echo mowers, 56v trimmers, edgers, etc. The new Echo 56v form factor of this battery is very tight and compact so it's easier to mount on the bike frame. I purchased a 3-D printed battery holder on ebay for these batteries, but as they are all plastic, I've found that it's necessary to reinforce the mounting with sheet metal plates sandwiched between the plastic and riveted to bike frame. I can get about 12 miles on the 5aH 56v battery with my 3-speed bike as long as I'm using no higher that PAS 3. Going faster with PAS 4 or higher will reduce milage so it's necessary to keep a 56v charger or an extra 5aH battery for long trips. I am glad the Toseven motors can run 60v batteries. The Bafang 48v BBS02 will produce an over voltage error on a fully charged 60v battery (the threshold is 61.5v) based on my experience of using 60v batteries on them.

[@JayBomb999]

The cover that you made to hide the wiring, is that a 3D print? Would you be willing to share the .stl?

[@HighVoltageKits]

Yeah you can have the STL for it. Shoot me a message to [e-mail]

[@MumfordJim]

Can the DM02 run with different volt batteries (36V, 48V, 52V). If you can can you chang from parameters of the display by the end user. What kind of performance would you get with each voltage?

[@Alex-uh1mj]

Yes it can

[@HighVoltageKits]

So far there is 36 volts and 48 volts you can set it to. I have been running 52 volts but its not a stock setting and it should be. The DM01 can run up to a 17s battery. Not sure if this is the same for the 02. I will find out.

[@philflip1963]

ToSeven advertise 2 versions of the DM01, a 750W and a 1000W version, Which power version was featured in this video?

[@HighVoltageKits]

I only have the 1000 watt one. I think they will send a 750 watt one eventually tho.

[@teemupekkala1068]

Hi! Do you know if i can buy 48v model and use it with 16s battery? Toseven sells 48v and 60v models. I would greatly appreciate your input.

[@HighVoltageKits]

As far as the voltage goes I believe it’s the same version you just change the battery settings. But I’d confirm that with toseven to be sure. I’d hate there to be a difference in the controller and it fry something with 16s

[@teemupekkala1068]

@@HighVoltageKits Seems that i have to settie on 52v battery as they said its custom item and only some display models support 60v. It would cost 75% more to import 60v model directly from toseven😅 thanks!

[@HighVoltageKits]

@teemupekkala1068 thanks for that information. Maybe if we get our kit working with the torque sensor you can upgrade one day. Cheers

[@jonk8337]

Where can one purchase a DM01? I can’t seem to fin one online.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Distribution is being arranged via dealers. Our Discord is a way to keep up on information.

[@ryoukokonpaku1575]

Definitely liking how the internals look on the dm02, much better than my tsdz2b from the looks of it. Hope they do allow non tapered square bb so we'll have a much better set of aftermarket cranks to choose from. Don't even mind if it's an optional extra cost.

[@HighVoltageKits]

I will find out about that on the BB. I am not sure there is any variation right now.

[@ryoukokonpaku1575]

@@HighVoltageKits Thanks! That's really one wish I'd like, only Photon has ISIS splines from the conversion market at the moment. Really appreciate the coverage so far with both these motors. Hope you can fix the dm02 and get another test ride with it.

[@mikldude9376]

Just thinking about a makeshift torque sensor, I think maybe you could rig something with a heavily sprung chain tensioner and a potentiometer ? Does that doable or am I barking up the wrong tree ?

[@mcspikesky]

Wrong tree. You'd be loading/unloading the spring with every pedal stroke, lost energy. Load cells aren't that difficult?

[@HighVoltageKits]

I mean for all the effort it would be easier to use a strain sensor. Be a cool experiment to see what kind of data. I'm not sure it would be responsive enough to be accurate though.

[@mikldude9376]

@@HighVoltageKits Ok , cheers .

[@mikldude9376]

@@mcspikesky Ok , cheers .

[@tonykreiner6437]

You mention a lot about heat. Has anyone tried statorade from grin technology to help with cooling the bbshd? They use statorade for hub motors. I think it would help with mid drives.

[@HighVoltageKits]

I don't think it works with mid drives as it needs the centrifugal rotation in the wheel.

[@daytriker]

I had just received a reply back from Bafang China regarding 2 model Torque Sensor Mid Drives listed in their catalogue. Since they announced they were stepping back from requiring their Canbus batteries for compatibility, I was hoping this was true with these 2 motors also. Unfortunately they are not. They replied that they are not ready to release these new models yet so maybe the change is still under development. I would be interested in knowing if there are components that are interchangeable between the TSDZ2's & the Toseven. i.e. can the TSDZ2 be improved with Toseven parts?

[@HighVoltageKits]

I'm not completely sure of the picture with the Bafang stuff right now. I thought they were stepping back. Still waiting to see. You won't be able to use TOSEVEN parts on a Tongsheng. It might look a bit similar in areas but apart from the chain ring they are not compatible unfortunately.

[@daytriker]

Hi John, I am on Vancouver Island & had reasonable success with the TSDZ2 for the past few years but 2 recent purchases of the B version both are crap! I was hoping the Toseven Controller might be an improvement.@@HighVoltageKits

[@Gyllbonus]

I hope they come out with a 104 bcd adaptor.

[@HighVoltageKits]

I will ask

[@michaelsprinzeles4022]

Thanks so much for all your detailed vids. I've watched the TOSEVEN motors with great anticipation. They seem to have real potential. I've looked at some specs & sadly they do not work for me & my fat 120mm BB:( If you have any input with TOSEVEN, may I ask, you suggest 10mm more in BB options.

[@Alex-uh1mj]

I will get back to you on that

[@HighVoltageKits]

Awesome 👌

[@Frombie_01]

I have the same beef with the bike I want to convert. It's a really sweet fat bike, but has the 120 mm BB.

[@michaelsprinzeles4022]

@@Frombie_01 You wouldn't think 10mm is such a huge measurement but it's the difference between most mid-drives fitting & only 2 fitting a (fat) bike:(

[@Frombie_01]

@@michaelsprinzeles4022 10 mm is not much if you're building a bridge. But it's almost 9% difference between 110 mm and 120 mm. Edit - I have a tendency to think that the 120 mm bottom bracket isn't so common on fat bikes. The same as my rear fork is 190 mm and not 180 mm.

[@navidmehdi6]

What battery is it. Is full to the edges with cells

[@HighVoltageKits]

Its a 25 amp hour pack from EM3EV. It actually take up about 60% of the space so I have room for an auxiliary battery as well as a charger and some tools.

[@stvsmith1791]

Lol a record holder, eh? Z'at mean yer good at breaking shite?❤😂 (Someone's got to do it)

[@Alex-uh1mj]

Scottish?

[@HighVoltageKits]

100% I think it was just luck!

[@macgolf1194]

No Difference with hydraulic brakes...than calble discs.. ? Have you got a comparison ?

[@HighVoltageKits]

Sorry missed this. I need a bit of context. Hydro brakes on the whole stop better than mechanical. Although high quality mechanical will likely beat out bargain basement hydro brakes.

[@mamidalasuryanarayana868]

Good morning sir,how much is this full kit

[@HighVoltageKits]

They are going to be sold through dealers. I can't give a general price as it's up to them but competitive with similar stuff like the bbso2 / bbshd and Tong Shen

[@kevinshort3943]

Torque sensor motors shouldn't kick the power in until it detects cadence too.

[@HighVoltageKits]

That might be a setting with this. On steep slopes I like the instant engagement. I guess it's a fine balance getting something most people will feel confident on.