Look inside the DM02 from TOSEVEN, discussion on differences with the Tongsheng TSDZ2

I was invited to send questions to TOSEVEN motor regarding their new DM02 and DM01 motors. This is a look at the DM02 model and how it differs in design from the Tongsheng TSDZ2. On the surface they look similar but inside the guts it is different. Feel free to chat about the DM02 motor and TOSEVEN in the comments and on our Discord community. highvoltagekits.com/discord
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/ @highvoltagekits

[@larrym2434]

I would love to see the open source programming of the TSDZ2 migrate to the new To7 motor.

[@MumfordJim]

I would like the same!

[@HighVoltageKits]

I don't the the controller is the same ecosystem although both are UART. There is alot of work going on this side of things so I believe it will be open and for people to do their own thing with the firmware. I do not have a timescale on this.

[@ryoukokonpaku1575]

It's open source so forking should be easy, I actually have an active fork for my personal OSF on my bike. The challenge here would be how compatible it is currently in comparison, if we had a guide line or a manual on the protocol it would make it easier. I'll gladly play with it if I get a dm02 once my tsdz2 kicks the bucket.

[@lukewalker1051]

Great info. Thank you for your hard work. 👍

[@HighVoltageKits]

You are most welcome Luke. Cheers

[@mickp10]

Thanks for dissecting thr motor, and walking us through your thoughts on quality and design.

[@HighVoltageKits]

You are welcome. Hopefully go a bit further once I get some of the more complex instructions!

[@jamesbenot4475]

That was pretty good! I'm glad I still have a bafang BBSHD. Thanks!!!

[@HighVoltageKits]

Its going to have more grunt than this one for sure. The torque sensor is pretty nice tho!

[@chrisellingson123]

Looks like an easy motor to repair. The nylon gear makes sense; it's a mechanical fuse and probably helps with noise reduction. Motor manufacturers need to look at membrane type pressure vents to combat the moisture ingress issues. Often 'sealing' an air pocket in a product can cause issues as moisture often can squeeze around o-rings and gaskets due to pressure differentials created by thermal cycling. Moisture is also trapped if the product doesn't have some form of weep-hole. I would be tempted to add water cooling to these motors.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Interesting thoughts. The gaskets on these are decent quality. Better than Bafangs paper ones! Watercooling mods are definitely possible.

[@-MacCat-]

Good review. Thanks for the share.

[@HighVoltageKits]

You are welcome:)

[@Ray-dz9fn]

Thank you High Voltage for his internals video. While I see the three-phase wire plug (another subtle improvement), I've not read whether or not this motor's controller monitors the core temperature and protects it, as needed.

[@HighVoltageKits]

There is a temp sensors but it's just the one. The motor temp is extrapolated from that. I would prefer independent but we will see how it works in practice.

[@Shreddykruger]

What a great review. I have a Tongsheng Tsdz2 750w and it managed to haul me up mount snowdon fitted to a specialized Enduro wuth a hailong 17.500 ah battery it never missed a beat no overheating.it even had a 46t chain ring on it crazy.iv bought a dm01 now and it is way more powerful but also alot heavier.great vids!!

[@HighVoltageKits]

Thats impressive up Snowdon! Wow. Done that climb on foot many a time. I take it this was up the pig track tho right?

[@Shreddykruger]

I went up and down the ranger's track set off at about 3.30 am and got up for sun rise it was a good bit of hike a bike aswell.got down in no time atall the rangers track is pretty hardcore DH to be honest so had to be careful as I was on my own I thought the pig looked good but I was parked at the lake near the ranger station.il do the pyg next summer.tongshengs are pretty amazing for the money but iv brought a vitus e mythic as iv tried all the bolt ons now..

[@mickp10]

Excellent to hear they have made the motor self serviceable. I am leaning towards the DM02 instead of the CYC because of this, no point having a great torque sensing motor if you have to post it back to point of purchase just to replace a gear.

[@nc3826]

"self serviceable"? Where was that mentioned in the post? Since its motor press fit into the housing, it seems to me the less serviceable.

[@HighVoltageKits]

I have a video to do on the CYC with that respect. I am struggling to get the main gear off.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Its not glued in so I am pretty sure the technique is to use bolts to push it out. I will obtain the procedure once translated. In reality though how many people need to service the stator on a motor? Most people that burn an BBSHD stator just buy a new motor core for $100 or so and bolt it on. I would imagine that this will be similar as well.

[@Alex-uh1mj]

@@nc3826 its the trade off for having a motor that doesn't cook itself. As high voltage have said you can just buy the motor housing and case all in one. Its not going to be that expensive

[@zhutwo]

Seems like they could have done away with the kidney bean shaped casing and optimized for more room to rotate the motor against the downtube for better ground clearance. I suppose this was tooling carry over from the TSDZ2. Looking forward to seeing if you're able to find a solution for the chain line issue from your previous video. Being able to move the chainring more outboard might be necessary for modern MTBs with chainstays that are very tightly contoured around a small 1x chainring.

[@HighVoltageKits]

I don't think the tooling carried over but much of the design layout did. You are right this is an area that could be improved significantly.

[@Alex-uh1mj]

believe it or not it can actually be rotated further up with the new design , there are some image's of it online, the gap between the bottom bracket and the housing has increased, its part of the reason why. i dont think i have any way to link to or post a picture here the tooling hasnt carried over, if you look you will see the motor is on the other side on the tongsheng

[@zhutwo]

@@Alex-uh1mj If the tooling wasn't carried over then it was a missed opportunity to improve the clearance even further by getting rid of some unused space.

[@marcosefreitas]

Amazing videos about To7 Motors. Would you say to us what's the distance (gap) between the bottom bracket and the motor. I want to know if the DM01 and DM02 can be mounted in a carbon frame. The CYC Photon have 12.7mm, the TSDZ 6mm. Thanks.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Okay so technically it can be just over 12mm. There is however a small metal tab that reduces it to 9mm. I cant see what its for though so if this was removed then it would be about the same as the Photon.

[@marcosefreitas]

@@HighVoltageKits thank you, friend.

[@86jogger]

Hi, thank you for this video! You compared to the Tongsheng TSDZ2, but what is about the TSDZ2B? Aren't some of these improvements seen in the Tosven DM02 also already available in the Tongsheng TSDZ2B? I am interested in buying the TSDZ2B or the DM02, but I want to choose the more reliable one, having less problems for longer time. Can you give me an advice on that?

[@HighVoltageKits]

I believe you are correct that some of the improvements are in the 2B model. I want to say that I have not seen one of those 2B models opened up yet and I have not ridden one so the feedback here is from other people. From what I am hearing the the DM02 deals with heat much better than the TongSheng. This is likely because the motor core on the DM02 is pressed in to the casing and on the TongSheng the casing leaves an airgap to the motor. You can get ones that dealers have modified to have heat transfer pads but its a bit like sticking a band aid on a bullet wound. This is based on feedback on our discord from riders who have had both motors. The feel of the Torque sensor is a bit more refined on the TongSheng right now as the firmware for that has been open source for a long time and has been heavily user refined. So there is some improvement to be had with the DM02. In terms of reliability the TongSheng Z2 does not have a good reputation but then the 2B revision as well as the TOSEVEN DMO2 are also relatively new so until they have been around for a year and people ride them a ton I can't say to you which one is more reliable. I will be getting the 02 back on the bike this week to do some more riding with. You are also very welcome to join our discord and chat with riders using the DMO2 to get their experience directly.

[@pxl666]

is this 48v ? how many amps for this motor ? did you try to adjust power levels via menu ?

[@HighVoltageKits]

Running 52 volts. I have adjust the amps and the power level percentages yes. They seem to be working correctly.

[@pxl666]

@@HighVoltageKits so you can adjust via display? May I ask where did you buy the motor ?

[@pxl666]

@@HighVoltageKits did you put it in the ebike yet?

[@Alex-uh1mj]

​@@pxl666amps can be adjusted by the display and set to different modes. For example.you could set eco to 10, city to 14, and sport to 19. Each with 5 levels.

[@Ale_Kor]

Hi! What is the internal resistance of the motor (DM02)?

[@HighVoltageKits]

Sorry I don't have this information. You might be able to ask on our discord as there is a TOSEVEN rep on there.

[@Gyllbonus]

Any adaptor 104 bcd info?

[@HighVoltageKits]

I will get this. Apologies Gyl I remember you asking before now.

[@pxl666]

110bcd or 104 bcd?

[@littlelostchild6767]

Isn't this the "upgraded Tsdz2b" from the last tongsheng youtube video that you can't find anywhere in the market.?

[@HighVoltageKits]

No. It's the TOSEVEN dm02. The Tongsheng designer left them and went to this company

[@BH4x0r]

The tongsheng really had an issue where the motor only contacted the case at the mounting point, so most of the motor had NO contact to cool itself, in this video it already looks like that's taken care of i have a tired TSDZ2 around but i unfortunately don't live in the UK

[@HighVoltageKits]

We are based in North America. Where are you? You are correct about the contact point though. People did all sorts of crazy things to improve it from external heat sinks to heat transfer pads.

[@BH4x0r]

@@HighVoltageKits Oh well, even more unfortunate, i do live in Europe so sending that over would be pricy about the heat, i know forsure it sucks because mine always started overheating and significantly reduced torque/power after like 12km (8mi?) even in 6°C weather but afaik there are no temperature sensors so that was probably just the magnets getting hot to the point their magnetic flux became less temporarily, and uh probably permanently when it gets that hot

[@HighVoltageKits]

Potentially. There is a dealer network being setup for Europe. You can make direct contact via our Discord server.

[@hindesite]

Looks promising...but I do wish they'd tried to accommodate a wider range of bike frames.

[@Alex-uh1mj]

They have

[@HighVoltageKits]

There is a pretty wide space between the motor and the axle. Its not quite as wide as on the CYC Photon but its better than on the Tongsheng. Its tricky with this style to go to far or you will end up like CYC using two chains.

[@nc3826]

How is the press fit motor removed from the housing for servicing? Plus please ask TOSEVEN why they use this methodology, instead of other alternatives, such as using a heat conductive paste or stator oil, for heat dissipation? Which would allow removal of the housing much more easily. TSDZ2b has pressed in parts for structural purposes, which makes sense, And since there is access to both sides of those parts, they can be relatively easily pressed out and back in again. Which is not apparently the case for the motor housing, I actually have a few other questions. 'But was it really necessary to press fit the housing around the motor to achieve sufficient heat dissipation?' Is the main one and I hope you can get it addressed at some point. Thank you.

[@HighVoltageKits]

There are channels down the side that I believe you insert a bolt and by threading the bolt in it will push the motor out of the core. A bit like removing the plate covering the nylon gear on a BBSHD. They are using this technique as direct metal to metal conductivity is better than any kid of conductive paste. Unless there is something new I am not aware of the stator oil will not work with a mid drive and is for hub motor. Lots of people used thermal compounds and shims to help with the Tongsheng motor. I am not familiar with the B motor improvements. All the videos I have seen the motor cover lifts off on the Tongsheng. The pressed in design I think is pretty critical for good transfer. It makes no difference to servicing the motor in terms of difficulty. Once I get it back on the bike I will show what kind of sustained power it can produce and the heat as well. One dealer that could get a Tongsheng to overheat in a few minutes was not able to do the same with the DM02. I will ask for the proper procedure to extract the motor core if that becomes needed.

[@nc3826]

@@HighVoltageKits Thank you for confirming, that the (six) outer holes can be used for extraction purposes. I do hope you will post how the procedure is done properly. Since a few things that could, possibly go wrong (for example was the housing reinforced to deal with the forces from the bolts). But at least TOSEVEN has addressed the issue, in terms of making it possible, to remove the motor from the housing. DM02 cost quite a bit more, so we need more data, to see if it's worth it? Thank you for helping with the research. (Sidebar: Conductive paste, which is usually suspended metal particles. Needs to be applied very thinly, to maintain the conductive coefficient of the base metal in the paste. In addition stator oil is utilized in Yamaha alternators, so no it's not just used for hub motors, but Grin Technology mostly deals with with hub motors which is It's the main supplier in the e-bike community , so I can understand the confusion. But neither are part of Tongsheng or TOSEVEN mId drive motors, so a direct comparison is not applicable. Lastly to get a higher level of heat conductivity, a heat pipe could be utilized, but this would increase complexity..Every alternative has trade-offs. What is most important in this case, is relative comparisons.)

[@HighVoltageKits]

That's really interesting on the stator oil. I can see how the Grin effect has caused that opinion to form. Thanks. Maybe it can be used inside the CYC Photon. Is there something specific about the design of a mid drive in order to allow its use? I have a bunch of ideas I would like to see with the motors. Maybe I will see if they will work with me on a few of them. I am exploring a few possibilities though. In terms of DM02 price. I would expect more than the Tongshen. So it needs to perform a step above to make it worthy of that. Once I get it back on the bike I will be able to give people an idea of how it does.

[@ericalonso2256]

U say than that the BBHD ratio is 24/1 what’s the cyc and the DM02 ratio

[@HighVoltageKits]

I think the BBSHD is 22:1, close enuff tho. The CYC is 36:1 and good question on the 02. I don't actually know. I think it's in the setup menu. I will check when I'm next at the bike.

[@ericalonso2256]

@@HighVoltageKits thanks I’m trying to pick one for my bike the BBSHD it’s the one that takes the most punishment and I think give u the most power but gear ratio is too low for me I don’t want to ride one to one ratio , the cyc seems to be very smooth and refine but not good for the diy community, DM01 seems to b a good candidate if gear ratio it’s higher than BBSHD !!!! Thanks a lot for ur content it really helps us to narrow what we’re looking for 👍🏼👏🏼👌🏼

[@szakadimas2]

tsdz2 had 1-2mm axle clearance out of the box, almost broken like

[@HighVoltageKits]

I know its one of the key areas which I forgot to mention possibly. It could be 12.6mm. There is this strange lump or tab that reduces it by 3mm ish right now. I don't see a need for it though. Maybe they will remove it. I have suggested it as then it would be on par with the CYC Photon.

[@cacagal4001]

Tutto molto bello ma i ricambi dove si possono trovare?

[@HighVoltageKits]

Verrà creata una rete di concessionari per fornire pezzi di ricambio. In questo momento è in corso.

[@user-wo3ln3nu7e]

Anybody want a programming cable for tsdz2/tsdz2b?

[@HighVoltageKits]

More likely get a response on Discord for stuff like this.

[@bigwheelsturning]

Better design than the Photon??"??

[@HighVoltageKits]

I am pretty sure that it being an inrunner will mean that it can sustain power and shed heat more efficiently and thats without much in the way of heat sinking. But its peak power is less. So its a bit less snappy once you set it to unrestricted. I think I will need some time to make a call and see how these are lasting and performing. Overall the designs are pretty similar. Helical reduction etc. Similar size. The main difference is the use of the inrunner vs the outrunner.

[@andi4281]

Controller not potted?

[@HighVoltageKits]

Yes is potted. Looked to be a pretty good job.

[@sergeiprivalov4588]

Cound't see any actual "comparison" as the author said from the eve beginning "I do not have TSDSZ2 motor" It is a purely promotional video.

[@HighVoltageKits]

I was sent the motors by TOSEVEN so they could get feedback from myself and the community I manage on what we think and what they can do to improve the motors. As I said it cannot be a direct comparison with the Tongsheng as I don't have one and have never ridden one. There are lots of people commenting on the similarity from the exterior between the two motors. I asked for information on how the designs deferred and presented that information. I also spent some time researching the Tongsheng motor and issues which seem to have plagued it. Both motors were made by the same designer. So its really not shocking that the newer motor does not carry over the same design flaws from one to another. Its a bit of reach to call it a promotional video. Usually when you promote something there is at least a link to where you can buy it?

[@Alex-uh1mj]

The flaws of the tongsheng are well known. No seals. No physical path for the heat to escape. Problems with reduction gear etc.etc Anyone can quickly look up a teardown of the tsdz2b there are plenty and the differences are obvious. A lot of people had been asking to see inside the motor for a long time.. high voltage just gave people what they were asking for. High voltage have been critical in a fair way of any flaws they have seen in the motors

[@sergeiprivalov4588]

@@HighVoltageKits My point is better to hear the opinion about the new motor, from someone already dealt with the old one design. Like used for thousands of miles, replaced a couple of reduction gears and services old TSDZ2. Otherwise, just repeating the information from the Toseven leaflets is not helpful at all. Yes, they improved design, theory is good, does it help in practice? What is the price difference for obtained enhancements? Leave with the motor, TSDZ2 and Toseven, compare price each one could be obtained and how to use both of them on a day-to-day basis. This will be a clear picture of what is best.

[@Alex-uh1mj]

@@sergeiprivalov4588 its not repeated from leaflets. If you listen he asked the guy who designed both motors what he has changed and why