The Only Time a Mid Drive eBike is Actually Worth it

[@thomash7573]

I bought a 1500w direct drive hub kit 26” earlier this summer. It’s a lot of fun. I ended up getting a BBSHD mid drive and putting it on a fat bike. Not gonna lie, when I first switched to mid, I thought I made a huge expensive mistake. After tuning it with the programming cable and spending a bit of time with it, I am not sure I will use the hub drive again. Now I am trying to convince my wife to buy a battery and use the hub drive - totally drive by guilt for getting into “a new expensive hobby that will only last a year” haha

[@MrTapsa.]

What tuning did you do?

[@Altema22]

I have a similar setup and agree it's a sweet spot. I go on group rides all over the place and ride with hundreds of mid drives, and they are a bit shocked when they encounter a GOOD hub drive setup. I met a guy who owns a company that builds e-bikes using the Bafang BBS02 and HD, and everyone on their group ride was friendly and invited me to go come along. The guy even gave his number so I could join them on future rides. But then we stopped for a restroom break in the hilly park we were at, and I powered up a steep berm to get back on the path, it turned out his bike couldn't make it. Granted, his chainring/cassette combo didn't give him any torque multiplication, but it was unexpected to the group which just expected a mid drive to be better in every possible way. He was good natured about it, but when I texted him back I was "uninvited" to their group rides. I'm currently using a Phaserunner on a RadMini with a Bafang G062, and dual 52v 20Ah Tesla batteries. I wish I had gone 72v, but the thing accelerates up 22% grades and keeps up with gas mopeds and scooters fine when unlocked. It's not a Sur Ron, but it wasn't meant to be.

[@omokok1877]

dual 72v 20ah?

[@baitball4665]

If his bike wasn't geared right of course it didn't climb a hill. It doesn't matter what hub motor you put on your bike... a bbshd with a upgraded controller and a 30t chainring/ 11-42 cassette will eat your bike for lunch.

[@arronjohnston742]

i've run 1000w hub and 1000w mid drive i'll never ever waste my own or recommend anyone to go hub, the difference is night an day mid drive is far superior better cruise speed, higher top speed, longer range, better towing, better hill climbing, less drag .... mid drive for the win!!

[@johnkisaragi5920]

I bought a 52v x class 1000w nominal 2000w peak hub drive. Pedaling feels like air and hill climbing etc is amazing. How would you compare in comparison in terms of feel? Whats the biggest difference when riding. Ofc you can say its better in certain areas but that doesnt describe to me the difference in feel. When pedaling a hub motor for me, theres like a split second delay before the battery kicks in. I can imagine in a mid drive where the motor powers the chain itself that every pedal would be much more responsive. I've only 650 miles on my X-Class.

[@slimdunkin117]

@@johnkisaragi5920 mid drive just “feels” more tuned since u get to use the gears on the cassette..

[@johnkisaragi5920]

@@slimdunkin117 is the motor pushing the chains with you or is it powering so that it is easier to pedal. I wish I could try out a mid drive ebike.

[@SuperiorNo1]

@@johnkisaragi5920 Try My Bosch 😁😈

[@AaronHendu]

I am the opposite...started with a mid drive, moved to hubs, ans I will never recommend a mid drive lol. My cheap hub motor setup smokes the mid drive in all but steep hill climbs due to my 50 some tooth climbing gear. And was cheaper and easier to mod...and i can remove battery and replace my wheels with non motor and have my MTB back to pretty much OEM. Also...mid drive makes too much noise, and is the opposite of smooth. With the hub motors, i do t even run a pedal sensor...and they are smooth and quiet as can be.

[@luckage5313]

You do a great job on your videos, very informative. Thank you. I agree that the mid drive is best for more extreme trail riding. I’m currently riding a Trek Marlin 7 with a Bafang 750W/48V/11.6Ah. It’s great on the hilly trails of Northern Alabama. Keep up the good work.

[@patlsmith404]

Thanks…good to know. I live in the hills of Alabama, too.👍🏼

[@8_x_9.]

​@@patlsmith404 Hello from hilly Vanc.bc.🇨🇦

[@darkmanx2g]

I love both mid drive and hubdrives. I found mid drive great for stealth and off road. Tons of torque and pulls my kids trailer with ease. Hub drive is great for commuting and top speed.

[@arronjohnston742]

only time a hub will match a mid drive in top speed is 72v 5000+ watts ....... the more common 1000watt 48/52v mids will out power hubs in every way, low power hubs are garbage............

[@brentcollins9727]

@@arronjohnston742, I love my new 250 hub 29er Trek FX 2 Plus

[@arronjohnston742]

@@brentcollins9727 🤣🤣🤣 it's junk compared to a good mid drive and 250watt?🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@Andrew-it7fb]

@@arronjohnston742 it's also way less expensive

[@Jujubees225]

​@@arronjohnston742 mid drives cant hold top speeds like hub motors can. Thats why both have their applications.

[@Bergwacht]

I have my controller in a rear rack side pocket and had heat problems. Now I drilled holes in the front of the bag that ensure airflow and everything has been great ever since. The faster i drive the more air flows through

[@AaronHendu]

Juat get a small fan and you probably could have avoided swiss cheesing your panier.

[@michaelrowland6538]

I know in the US some states allow 750w motor upto 28 mph and some I think 500w motor upto 20mph sadly here in the UK we allow 250w upto 15.5 mph and as to be pedal assist as once reach that speed motor as to cut out. My hub ebike as been great and done nearly a 1000 mile on it before converting it to mid drive, I have had no problems with motor or wheel been great, certainly good for the longruns and slight hills a great help as I am 58 with heart condition and weigh about 21 stone, so yes motor as done really well and still there is no problems with it the only reason I have changed to mid drive is for the steeper hills. I am just starting on my mid drive now so can't say rather one gets a lot of problems with them or what is less hazzle mid or hub, what I do know is mid is a lot more expensive and uses the gears more giving more of a cycling experience, alway felt if I was bepulled a little on my front hub but certainly got a lot of peddling in as well, I also think in the US you can use throttle here in the UK we are not suppose to but I do have a thumb throttle which I only use when going up these steep hills, so 95% of my ridding is peddle assist and its so easy to go over the 15.5 mph our so many times peddling takes over the motor even with a hub drive so we never rely just on a throttle. The idea of me getting a ebike is for exercise and not use the car so ofrwn and its working, eventually the ebike will pay for itself on the fuel I would be puttin g in the car so yes certainly recommend a ebike. I would get rid of the car if it wasn't for my wife as she wont peddle and can't drive, so that is 90% of my driving chauffiering the wife around I only use it once a week for myself. Sadly I don't see ebikes taking over cars but certainly can see a place for them and a increase, I feel in the UK if they went in more line with the US they would encourage more use of electric bikes but limiting them reduces the usefullness of them as even with my mid drive going up some of these steeper hill isn't possible especially for us older, unhealthier and heavier riders where we need that extra power to help. Mike

[@arronjohnston742]

don't speed around like a clown and wattage limits will never be questioned, 250w is garbage as is 750w ...... while you worry about wattage limits i'll be cruising past you up any hill and haul near any load...... just because a car has a 200mph speedo dial doesn't mean you do 200mph everywhere you go........ 🙄

[@rocketassistedgoat1079]

Yeah, I would personally just bend those rules. Get the 750watt, and don't go over 30/32kph. I remember when I was younger, being in many flats that wouldn't allow pets. I just explained away my cats later, lol. I never once got asked to leave over it. Just do it, and apologize later.

[@scb2scb2]

Most bikes in europe are way more than 250watts (500-700 mostly) they just say that to stay within the law. what they really mean its limited to 25km/h and that makes sense if you have bikepaths where the avg speed of other riders is 16km/h. You can also get a 45km/h one but than as with most of the places shown in the video you have to join faster moving objects (like cars) and follow different rules. If you want 45km/h in europe you can do that just fine just get that type and not a 25km/h one its simple. I am in my 50's too with a heart condition and bicycle use is great for that i do it about 1.5/2 hours a day.

[@rocketassistedgoat1079]

Actually, I've completely changed my mind. Who wants to go 40mph/70kph? That's where you have the kind of accidents you don't recover from. It's a bike, that takes advantage of pedestrian foot traffic rules, not a car or a motorbike. I think 330-550 watt, run through the gears: is the standard isn't it? Makes sense: as it's hills that are the problem. Any hub engined ebike will defeat headwinds, but you want a midengine to take advantage of gears, for the steepest parts of hills. Source: I own a hub ebike.

[@devildogcody]

you should use the second fan to pull air into the compartment the controller is in....drill some holes to make an intake, and mount the fan on the inside over the holes, set to draw air in (you will also need a spot opened up as an exhaust)...same Idea as a PC case. In fact, you may get better performance by having one fan set as an intake, and the other set as an exhaust instead of mounted to the controller.

[@EBikeBuilder_]

Yeah also look at air based CPU coolers. its a fan hooked to a heatsink that is pressfit on the cpu with thermal paste. maybe you could hook a cpu cooler or similar system with a fan and heatsink to the frankenrunner. There are “low profile” cpu coolers that take up less physical space if necessary

[@devildogcody]

@@EBikeBuilder_ the outside of his controller is already designed as a heatsink, so it really just needs some airflow going over it :)

[@omokok1877]

Huh

[@robcoastalga8279]

For weather proofing the fan pass-through at the controller use marine speaker covering. No💧only 💨 may pass.

[@dragonvibin2188]

Great idea but then you run into the problem of anytime it rains seriously you would not want to ride your bike in fear of water damage getting into the wiring/batteries / motors

[@braxtonk5283]

I feel like I've had multiple times where I realize your subcount and am perplexed. You're super underrated.

[@traviseller3770]

I’ve been a bicycle mechanic for the last 20 years I can tell you this 90% of problems people have with mid drives or any electric bike for that matter is generally user error poor writing style shifting when you shouldn’t or in proper shifting breaking things. Take care of it use it within reason they’re all super durable.

[@DirtySouth56]

Would you recommend everyday use for mid drive? My school and job is 2 miles away. Would everyday use be bad?

[@traviseller3770]

@@DirtySouth56 yes, I would have no problem using a mid drive as an every day Bike and even a commuter bike. Like I said a lot of problems comes down to pour technique. Poor shifting. If you take care of your bike, treated right do standard maintenance you won’t have any issues.

[@DirtySouth56]

@traviseller3770 I seen a video where the guy properly shift his gears. Other than that what's some routine maintenance?

[@traviseller3770]

@@DirtySouth56 biggest thing if you’re doing a do it yourself conversion kit and you’ve never done one or you’re not skilled at bicycle repair. Have someone go over it for you after you’re done or let them install it for you. Also as far as basic maintenance have your chain checked every now and again, just to make sure it doesn’t stretch out too much. Keep it clean and lubed. You don’t have to wash it all the time, but clean your chain occasionally have it lubed just basic every day maintenance. check your brake pads often. Make sure you get a quality battery. Make sure you follow proper charging techniques. Other than that electric bikes are pretty simple.

[@DirtySouth56]

@traviseller3770 thanks for the info big dawg.

[@erlgunslinger7344]

I just bought a bafang mid drive kit

[@Ubaid163]

No one able to solve my problem. Brother I have an e bike named as Raymon hardray 4.0. It has a yamaha mid drive motor and a yamaha display. I tried to increase the speed of the bike by putting magnet to pedals and removing sensor from its original place.. it worked perfectly but suddenly it stopped working completely. It gives very little peddle assist. Before I could go max 16miles but now the motor doesn’t support 5 miles. The change in the display that appears after this problem is that the range shown on the display is blinking. It never blinked before. Please help me. I haven’t found any video to solve this problem. No one in my area is able to identify the problem

[@johnw65]

Thanks for the comparison! Question... Will a hub-drive work with a mid-drive on the same bike with dual throttles? What I'd like to do is put the 750W hub motor on the front of a BeeCool Challenger, then put a mid-drive on the back wheel, Giving me both options plus AWD. Another thought, Is it possible to use a CVT on a mid-drive ebike? Chains are loud and they break. Transmissions are mechanical, heavy and expensive. CVT's are lightweight, cheap, quiet and seem like the perfect solution...?

[@Hoggdoc1946]

Sounds like a very cool idea. If you really want a sweet setup put and internal geared hub on the rear some cost as little as 200.00 plus relacing your wheel.

[@johnw65]

@@Hoggdoc1946 Well, I ended up buying a G-Force T42, 750/1100W folder that zings along 32/34 no problem... Planning now to add a rack bag/battery. But I see 3 options. 1) 48v parallel and bump AH's over 30AH; 2) Add a 52V and a blender, or 3) Add a 6V 20AH in series with the factory 48V to push 54V to the motor for peak performance... Do you see any pros or cons to these options?

[@thriftyamerican5719]

Why are you halfway through the video before you started the brief comment on the topic you titled the video on?

[@jstar1000]

I like both but sold my hub and kept the middrive. Like the transmission with the gears and everything built into the motor as far as controller and all. Both are great but the middrive is my go to.

[@tocatchthesun]

Lol. The end was great. I am so thankful now to put your voice to a face! Love all your videos! 😃

[@k.d.5786]

Okay, when do you cut to the chase? It has taken most of the video to get to the issue.

[@nathancereska8215]

Mid drive for off roading definitely. But when that chain breaks as they always do on a hill…. Ur stuck. Rear hub is great fir my commuting. I’m not a throttle guy because I haul my kid with a custom trailer I built so my range goes way up with PAS. Any ways big advantage to a throttle and PAS hub drive you have a built in back up to a mechanical failure. My chain broke the other day. Throttle home. Roach a controller…. I css as n pedal still.

[@arronjohnston742]

bullshit, chains break because people are cheap and or setup the bike up badly, i've done over 30,000 miles at 2000watts mid drive and never once broke a chain ........ btw not carrying tools is like going out in a car without a spare and a jack ... 🙄

[@ExploreYourWorld-oo3jd]

"Chains break as they always do" ?? If this is your experience, you're riding it wrong.

[@that8bitgamer82]

What is the difference between rear-drive, mid-drive and AWD.

[@stoutdog56]

The only downside is if the chain breaks but how often does that happen. I am a huge fan of belt drive so that is an essential piece of equipment I want. A throttle is also a very nice option but the best option for a mid drive is being able to have an Internally Geared Hub which is what I now prefer. While the derailleur equiped gear system is time tested, flexible and less expensive but after having a bent derailleur, I'm going to insist on a IGH. The two bikes I have found that almost meet my criteria are the VVolt Sirius and at twice the price, the FLX Blade II. I still looking and waiting.

[@arronjohnston742]

2000w mid drive shimano inter3 IGH 30,000 miles on it, never broke a chain but i still carry tools to fix it if it ever happens ....... build it don't buy it

[@BFBMTb]

Chain breaking doesn't happen often. I've broken 2 chains before,both 10 speed chains. One broke because I tried going uphill with throttle from a dead stop in the wrong gear. And the other broke after 950 miles. I've since switch to an 8 speed setup and the chain has about 1000 miles on it. I'll be replacing it soon since there is a bit of stretch already

[@BFBMTb]

I've busteda few hub drives on chunky terrain plus I never liked the weight concentrated on just the rear wheel. Mid drive feels more better for mountain biking. Hub drive for street cruising

[@rossmacintosh5652]

I've wondered if adding some heat dissipation 'fins' to a hub motor would offer any benefits? I was thinking some of those aluminum fin units like what are glued on chips in computers might be able to be adhered to the curved hub motor case. They would of course move with the spinning hub & that might help them dissipate even more effectively than the do for a chip. If I attached several I'd locate them equidistant so they wouldn't effect balance. Does this make any sense?

[@Hoggdoc1946]

Unless you seriously over volt or amp these motors, heat is really not an issue.

[@AaronHendu]

I would sooner just put temp sensors and realize indont need any more heat disapation of the motor, it is the controller and batteries that need the cooling mods.

[@Holyghost5565]

Can I put a mid drive motor on a fat tire bicycle ??

[@ProfessorOzone]

Another youtuber said that hub drives eat spokes. Thoughts?

[@Jujubees225]

What do you think of cooling fins and statorade fluid on the hub drive instead of fans?

[@FlyingFun.]

It's simple, Mid drive for proper fun off road and hub for commuting and light trails.

[@NATTHANJMARTIN]

Hey I’m in serious need of transportation for low cost and I think you sold this product well anything I should do before buying laws requirements modifications

[@Campfussell]

I live in the flatlands of NC and so far with bridges and overpasses, I haven't found anything that my hub drive Ariel Rider X-Class can't conquer? And I weigh 275. So for simplicity's sake I'll stick with hub drive. I think if I plan to go the mid drive route, I'll make it as complicated as can be with the new Biktrix Juggernaut XD and it's dual chain set up? I would really have to be into off roading to make that worth the trouble

[@Holyghost5565]

You think this a 52V 15Ah 1000W Ebike Battery Lithium Panasonic 21700 USB very good for a start off on a beginner first Ebike in my life ??

[@darinsmith2458]

I am just getting into ebikes... I could get a hub drive but I want to get a mid-drive.. I am about 20 miles away from the mountains and I really don't want to go off of paved.. Maybe p gravel if the trail is pretty smooth.. What I am looking into is a mid-drive belt driven with the CVT transmission.. I could probably use this bike wherever there is paved or p gravel.. I will probably get medium width tires and maybe front suspension with seat suspension.. Something that can hit a shallow pot hole..

[@darinsmith2458]

I did just test drive some mid drives and it was about 95 degrees and I am wiped out..

[@nanopete6472]

I have a mid drive bbshd 4500w luna ludicrous V2 controller and a hub 3000w phaserunner, they both have pro's & con's. The fan on your hub, really? I do like your bike and keeping my eyes out for one to buy.

[@kmtnbike1117]

Nice set ups. I run HV asi BBSHD 4000w plus myself.

[@robertpek56]

What do you use to record audio while on your bike?

[@shaunhall960]

You know when someone is passionate about something when they are willing to be bitten by mosquitoes for the greater good.

[@Leevan3]

you tried a bafang ultra? bc my rear hub bike been collecting dust since i got the mid drive frey bike

[@twowheelrides1628]

I have two ebikes 1 with bafang mid drive and the other with a hub drive. Both bikes have 4k miles on them. While the middrive is faster and goes up steep hills better, I also had to replace the stretched chain. The hub drive, still has the same chain and is more fun to drive as long as I am not going up steep hills

[@simedogz]

How do you like that bike? Is that the original back shock or did you replace it? Any opinion on the Luna cycle folding ebike with the same form factor as your bike? Thanks

[@EarlRay-p8i]

How fast does that ebike go

[@bellyacres7846]

a pavement princess will always go hub - just notice it is a popular choice for city commuters - cheap & many options as they are popular with folks that ride hard pac/paced roads. [I got a couple of these that are great for this purpose] my quest is to find a good ebike to run the logging roads there are many around here. safe to ride thru the woods with miles to explore. minimal to no traffic :) grades are 6% to 22% the longest runs (a couple miles) are about 12% up then ez going along the ridges. my hub drives get warm & arent the best for this - hence my quest to find A mid drive ebike thats better suited for the Loggin roads & occasional trails

[@johnd1536]

what model bike are you riding?

[@ash0787]

mid drive has too much torque at high power and its weird switching gears above around 1KW, direct drive often has too low torque even at high power, but its more convenient in many ways, and goes fast. I like my BBSHD but its not a bike that is good at doing high speeds, if I modified one to run at 4KW it would cost a lot of money and requires much technical knowledge. I prefer mid drives on bicycle style ones that have tyres less than 2 inchs wide, especially if you want to go very far and or pedal a lot, and be able to fix punctures easily, like a road cyclist would be able to. I was able to get 110 miles range on my bbshd with 2.5KWH of battery, I am going to see how far I can get with a similar setup on a "2000w" hub drive which is running at 72v similar to your old bike.

[@larrym2434]

Tell me about that 2.5kWh battery!

[@ash0787]

@@larrym2434 its not a single battery its a standard 52v 28AH UPP triangle battery in the middle of the frame then a detachable rack thats designed to fit any bike which I attached an ali express uncased rectangular battery to, which is a 48v 20ah battery. My next experiment though is going to be two of those triangle batteries mounted side by side to make a double width triangle with 72v 19ah X 2 but this requires some crafting like installing a wooden shelf onto the bottle cage attachment point, probably attach the batteries with leather belts rather than the usual velcro straps.

[@ExploreYourWorld-oo3jd]

If you live and ride where it's fairly Flat then a hub motor MAY do, depending on how you use it and what your using it for. If you live in a hilly / mountainous area, a Mid-drive is DEFINITELY the way to go! What are the best things about a mid-drive setup? It's easily moved from bike to bike. This allows you to upgrade the bike itself, over and over again while keeping the same motor kit and battery. I can move a mid-drive kit from start to finish from one bike to another bike, in under 2 hours. Also, it's Much Easier to change a rear tire on a mid-drive. Weight distribution is also better. It can also be re-geared as needed "on the fly" for Hills OR for Speed. The only disadvantage of a mid-drive is, if you snap a chain you're not going anywhere. However, Rider Error is Almost Always the cause of a Snapped chain! There is a Proper way to use and ride a mid-drive. (If you hop on a mid-drive and ride it like you do a hub drive, you will eventually have a problem.) I carry a spare chain on the bike just in case, but in 2670 miles, I have Never snapped a chain. This is where someone chimes in and says "yeah but mid drives don't have high top speeds, they're not fast enough" Simply put, that is incorrect. The current mid-drive I'm running has a top speed of 39.2 MPH. Mid drives being "slow" is a myth. My mid-drive will also go up the Very Steepest Hills. And All Without any assistance from me pedaling, whatsoever! Why? Because of the ability to mechanically shift down with the rear gear set and chain drive. I live in a very Steep Hilly area of the Southwest PA Appalachian Mountains. I go up Every single hill and I have Not had to Ever gear down to Mechanical gears 1 or 2. ( I have a 9 speed Gary Fisher ) I have used gears 8 and 9 on occasion for maximum speed on the flat. But, I discovered I'm not actually getting any more speed than if I just stay in mechanical 7. It just makes the motor work harder with higher load on it at a lower RPM. And that draws More amps! So really I only use Mech Gears 3 through 7 really making it a 5-speed. To me it's not that different from having a 5-speed motorcycle except I have pedals instead of footpegs. Now you may ask why don't I just get an electric motorcycle? Simply having pedals, even if you hardly use them is a HUGE cost-savings! Why? Because it's a bicycle. Not a motorcycle. I do Not need a drivers license, registration or insurance. Another consideration is total weight. My mid-drive Gary Fisher only weighs a total of 53 lb. That's with a Huge 28.8ah battery on it. Most hub drive bicycles weigh At Least 75 or 80 lb. The only hub-drive bike I can think of that's even comparable to mine in weight, is the Lectric XP "light". Which weighs in at 55 lb. I watch a lot of these videos and to this day I have not seen a single video that makes a truly compelling case for why a hub drive bike is better than a mid-drive bike. Not One! If you want to cite the chain snapping thing I'll refer you to what I said earlier that if you know how to properly use and ride a mid-drive bike you will never snap a chain. Also, how hard is it for you to put a $12 chain in one of your pouches and carry it with you? That's no different than carrying an extra inner tube and an air pump. It's just something you should do when you go for extended rides. My kit : Bafang BBS02 52v 750w with a UPP 52v 28.8ah battery with LG4800 cells. Mounted on a 2015 Trek Gary Fisher 9-speed hardtail mountian bike with 26" wheels and Hydraulic brakes. I've modified the stem to a short one and changed the flat handlebars to 6.5" BMX style bars for more upright riding. Suspension seatpost. Comfy seat... Done.

[@brentcollins9727]

Haha! Even the tiniest roots are practically stopping that bike!! 😂 It is a nice one though. 😊

[@lee-tx5mw]

mid for36 to 52v setups .60v and over hubs give enough torque .middrives give so much torque its great plus no ugly controller to hide .neater wiring too .

[@mikemorgan8588]

I recommend 2 wheel drive hub motors for comparable or superior torque compared to a mid drive. Maintain simplicity while doubling dependability and distance with dual batteries.

[@slimdunkin117]

That won’t have better torque lol

[@mikemorgan8588]

@@slimdunkin117 and that’s why 4 wheel drives aren’t useful off road?

[@BFBMTb]

Might as well just get a pre-made emotorcycle. The amount of batteries needed to power 2 motors for considerable range is probably quite a bit. Not to mention the weight of that thing. Might as well get a bbshd with the biggest battery you can fit, a 52t chainring for speed, belt or 8 speed drive train with chain, and most importantly, some slim high pressure urban slick tires.

[@18andlikeit]

Both hub and midrive have there place. For general surface street cruising around, I think the hub would serve best for most people. But I just got done converting a Polygon Xtrada 6 MTB to mid drive with a Befang 750w motor (1,300w peak) and a 52v 17ah battery. I can can tell you that my 500w hub bike can't come close to competing with my mid drive! So much more power and torque! I'm absolutely loving it.

[@twistedexistence3603]

I'm deathly allergic to poison ivy. Half of those trails, were killing me =)

[@StarEssences]

The whole point behind a bicycle (besides for travel) is to pedal. All those who don't like to do movement will end up getting a Hub motor (~moped cycling). Mid motors not only consume less of the battery equaling more range, but they are better climbers too.

[@nathan2813]

I'd have ordinarily been annoyed at how much data you caused me to use including so much footage of your just biking without discussing info related to the video's title. However, it was sufficiently interesting to see how easy, fast, & quiet ebikes are that I forgave you. :o)

[@douglaslin5469]

If you like gears, get a mid drive. They are now not much different in manufacturing cost, although makers put higher margins on them. They are smooth, quiet. That they can wear the tyres, the chain and the gears - if the bikes performance is pushed hard. While fun to do with a mid drive, it means more maintenance. For average riding - no negative issues with a mid. And they do run cooler too.

[@ten-ub4xd]

starts at 06:30 , appreciate the info thanks

[@HB-yq8gy]

Thank you for your great e-bike knowledge. I live in Milford,NJ a lot of hills we test rode the Pedego boomerang & interceptor they rode great in flat Florida not sure in NJ? Most likely will ride on Delaware towpath. What's your thought about Ariel Grizzly's 52v dual motor looks badass?

[@arronjohnston742]

lol build it don't buy it

[@HB-yq8gy]

Leaning towards Bafang HD 1000 watts on a Trek 4500 saw your link.

[@timr31908]

I like hub drive the best... And I'm a scientist

[@WesternIronwoks]

so if you worry about the motor being warm why not add the heat skins they make to wrap around hub motors?

[@NPLVentures]

those are for direct drives

[@WesternIronwoks]

@@NPLVentures well they would still work for the geared hub motors,unless you mean nobody would make them for the geared motors? also what geared motor do you have.

[@timothyantipodes7646]

In nsw we have 500w and 25 km/h and I want somehtign I can porgrma ot be leaga;. the rest of australia is 250w and 25 km/hr. I am ok wiht the altter but more range

[@hillyseattlenarrowstreets6087]

Best BBSHD mid-drive setup I've seen is the "High Voltage" channel. BBSHD w/ASI BAC 800 controller at 72V on a Specialized Fat Tire bike, that's a "Boss Bike" to me. They run the motor up to 8,000 RPM and run it in 1st gear. 40+ MPH is plenty fast. Not sure about battery consumption with this setup, but it is a fast bike. The Chain ring rotates a lot faster than you can pedal, which equals Speed. Nice that they sell the parts you need and have a Forum page for DIY stuff.

[@kmtnbike1117]

I run a HV 72V full suspension mountain bike. It’s actually the (BAC) 855 controller and HV has had the motor spinning at 18,000 RPM’s not under load. You are absolutely correct that you can do 40 in first gear but the sweet spot about the kit is the Eggrider allows for full programmability allowing me to pedal at 250w in road mode and by the tap of a button switch to off-road mode and throttle at 4000w. My bike has been seen here on NPL Ventures on his custom build review. I absolutely love this HV bike. NPL says hub motors are the best but he has never been on an HV bike so his personal opinion.

[@hillyseattlenarrowstreets6087]

@@kmtnbike1117 When NPL did his mid-drive conversion, he went with a CYC setup. I'm sure the difficulty of CYC install and use of external Power Chain soured him on mid-drives. Also most US e-bikers don't like to pedal - they want a throttle so it's like a low powered motorcycle. I'm envious of your HV setup. It is a Boss Bike to have - 250W for Street legal mode and range, then 4000W Beast mode with flick of a switch. HV, aka Capt. Codswallop has done a great service for the BBSHD community with his work.

[@kmtnbike1117]

@@hillyseattlenarrowstreets6087 I also have the CYC Stealth motor. It’s definitely a great pedal motor not so good for throttling, gets warm very quickly. Captain is kind of the front man with the videos and 3D printing. Mr. High Voltage (Greg)is the guy programming the awesome controllers. Rio is building batteries and Mike with great electrical skills and programming the M600 motors. Great group.

[@ashpunting]

I do have two mid-drive bikes but I'm going to get the Zooz electric bmx bike with hub drive 750w because out of the three thst dose have the most torque plus I'm not that bothered about going a few mph faster what are your thoughts on the Zooz electric bike 😀

[@Dexmo]

So you have a Grin Kit. How long did it take from ordering to shipping? Their CS department has not answered my email on shipping times. So while I like the equipment in general, Their lack of response is underwehlming.

[@NPLVentures]

From my experience, sometimes they are super responsive and other times no reply at all. The products are quality though and the processing time (between ordering and being shipped) was about a week and a half then the actual dhl shipping was 3 days.

[@Dexmo]

@@NPLVentures I have their battery charger and a Torqearm, but I got those from amazon. If they stocked their Amazon supply I would defiantly get more Grin. But now (and shipping DHL) hmmmmm.

[@ryker102208]

I'm for hub motor s

[@420bob1493]

Just got another sub, great content and great production! There was practically no wind noise and audio sounded great. Good info, I had written off hub drive for my first E Bike conversion until now. Is the amazon link to the same motor you use? What about Battery? Same one as your amazon link?

[@NPLVentures]

My current build uses the common Bafang geared hub motor with a higher voltage battery I custom ordered on alibaba.

[@BOOSTEDLASER]

@@NPLVentures YOUR VIDS ARE GREAT ! HONEST.

[@BOOSTEDLASER]

@@NPLVentures BIKE IN THIS VID,HOW MANY BASE WATTS? TOP SPEED? WTF IS "PEAK" ANYWAY

[@liantoblazes]

I recently bought a battery and due to my bike being a pre built, I don’t think I can access the inside to connect my battery. What should I do?

[@Hoggdoc1946]

Checks things out before buying something.

[@shophacks]

If you ever ride a mid drive true mountain bike on a trail you will never want to ride anything else. Since you ride mostly on the road with just an occasional trail jaunt then a mid drive is probably a good choice. Bike's that try to do more than one thing usually don't do anything well. Decide what you really care about most then work from there. For me the thrill of flying through trails and not having to worry about jumps or technical features far outweighs the fun of riding on the road. My emtb is motor limited to 20 mph so it's not a good road option but it's a beast on the trails. Specialized Turbo Levo. I really enjoy seeing you work through your bike options. I really hope you get to try a dedicated EMTB on a real mtb trail sometime. My guess is you will become addicted.

[@NPLVentures]

Thanks for the comment. I see your points and trust me, I do want to try a high end eMTB one day soon!

[@difflocktwo]

I had a cheap Chinese hub motor on my MTB conversion. I went to a store to try bosch and Shimano e-mtbs. The bosch and Shimano were so weak compared to my cheap direct drive hub motor. It makes sense cause the Shimanos and Bosch barely hit 1 kW from the battery while my hub setup would peak at 5 kW from battery.

[@shophacks]

@@difflocktwo hub motors and bang mid drives can be much more powerful than standard class 1 mid drive bikes, true. They are good choices if you want to ride on the road. But nothing beats a mid drive torque sensing bike on the trails for XC, All Mountain, or even some enduro riding. They are efficient, smooth, quiet, and deliver plenty of power without requiring an excessive size battery to take you through 30 miles of trails. There's definitely no "best" setup for everyone. The best setup totally depends on the type of riding you do. For me, nothing beats All Mountain and XC riding a quiet torque sensing mid drive on local trails. I've had 5 ebikes now including hub drive types. On a different subject, I'd love to try a super moto style Emotorcycle sometime. There are a few really tempting models out now.

[@ash0787]

your bike there looks quite good, I bet its lighter and does similar speed and acceleration and range to my Stealth Bomber clone. Mid drive has an obvious advantage of being able to remove the wheels easily to fix a puncture and it can be installed on bikes where the frame is too delicate to sensibly install a 1KW+ hub motor. Mid drive probably also feels more natural for the 'peddlers' out there, I never installed the PAS sensor for my hub drive bike so I cant say for sure.

[@AaronHendu]

Hub motor.wheels.come come off too? Wtf are ya even talking about?

[@FMonou]

I was watching an EBike mechanic the other night. He was saying HUB is very difficult to replace if it breaks. Where a Mid Drive is just replacing the chain generally and you get more torq out of it. So he recommended Mid Drive. I think your ideas about HUB are spot on with hard surfaces, I still have that wonder about a wrecked HUB. I think efficiency wise Mid Drive can extend your range with pedal assist but you need to be in good shape for that.

[@BFBMTb]

Hub drives don't really last too long on offroad bumpy terrain, plus the weight distribution is poor. The weight of the hub drive motor doesn't feel right with jumps or drops

[@marthamryglod291]

@@BFBMTb I ride a 3,000 watt 72v hub hardtail 27.5 MTN bike on street and trails. I can't speak to long-term durability, but I can give you my perspective of 300 miles of use. The hub isn't noticable until I try to use muscle memory to lighten the back end over roots and sharp edges. I have had two pinch flats because of the weight and added speed. The triangle battery is heavy but centrally located and the balance is good. The center of gravity feels low. I don't find issues with handling on the trails, but I also raced MX for ten years and have 20 years of motorcycle riding experience that can contribute to that opinion. The big thing I noticed is that I am hesitant to send the bike over any jump that doesn't have a guaranteed smooth landing. I don't want to risk the impact damage potential. If I had a mod drive full suspension I'm sure I would push the bike much much harder without hesitation. My next project is just that. That's just my two cents about hub drives off road.

[@BFBMTb]

@@marthamryglod291 hub drives Isn't bad on small roots and chunks when I used it with high volume low psi trail boss tires and tannus armour inserts. But with jumps, the extra weight on one wheel was apparent. I remember not being able to traditional bunny hop it more than 4 inches or so (I could bunnyhop my analog bike 12, and my mid drive around 6 inches) and the landing didnt feel right. Any ways, I ended up busting two hub drive motors as I started riding more and more chunkier trails. Instead of going for another hub drive, I went with the bbs02b and so far has close to 2000 miles with little to no issues and the weight distribution feels more neutral. I am a firm believer though that every tool has a job and I think hub drives are great for the street. I actually have a project street bike right now I've been building with a hub drive for commuting purposes.

[@marthamryglod291]

@@BFBMTb hey - thank you for sharing your experience with the hub drive. That really helps me choose my next build!

[@EBikeBuilder_]

if there is any sort of uphill incline involved at all, i would rather have a mid drive by far. I have bbshd and g62 hub On my bike, both 30A, if the bbshd battery goes dead i get off and give it the g62 battery. It blows away the g62, with them both on the same bike its night and day. Feels like the BBSHD does 2/3 of the work and the hub is doing 1/3 Which lines up with the torque ratings. The only way i would use only a hub motor is if i only ride on a 100% flat, which is never

[@NPLVentures]

Interesting what’s the current power level each is running at? and what voltage battery?

[@EBikeBuilder_]

@@NPLVentures my bbshd and G62 are both 30A stock controllers, I have tried the motors with 48V and 52V. They feel better with 52V, the hub in particular feels a LOT better with 52V and the top speed increase feels more significant and noticeable with the hub than when I give the BBSHD a 52V. When I switch my BBSHD from 52V to 48V i don't notice as much of a difference, yes at lower voltages BBSHD goes slower but it feels like it maintains lots of torque all the way till the battery dies. When the hub is on a 48V battery and the voltage starts to sag feels like its straight bogging and barely going. There is a lot to be said about the different mechanical designs. I'm giving them both the same amount of power and the bbshd is more efficient with it. I thiink the BBSHD uses a lot less power than the hub say if I want to maintain a certain speed, its probably going to take less power on the mid drive. I can put the BBSHD on like 60% or 80% power at 18A or 24A and it still really moves. With the hub, i feel like i have to give it 30A minimum, it feels like hubs need higher voltage and a lot of power to really shine.

[@SuperZabojca]

I won't comment on the small cpu fan lol. Try using motor heat sink, they should preform much better alone imo.

[@dowblab]

I've got my Frey Hunter mid drive on order. I'm super excited. I rode a couple hub drives like the aventon aventure but once I test rode a different fat tire with bafang ultra.... game changer. The torque sensor in the ultra and the feel of how the mid drive puts down power is unmatched

[@quantumfx2677]

Good decision! Wait to you feel the power on hills.

[@dowblab]

@@quantumfx2677 I'm really looking forward to it!

[@scb2scb2]

'If you just want to go 50miles a hour', you are getting a electric motorcycle not a bicycle thats fine just call it what it is. I am dutch and biased i guess but in the netherlands now more electric bicycles are sold than normal ones (and we have more bicycles than people). Mid drives will be the way forward simply because the market are driving it that direction. For most people who want a bicycle (not a electric motorcycle) the goal is to ride like a bicycle, feel like a bicycle and be as simple as a bicycle. A well tuned middrive, belt and some internal gear hub is now becoming the norm yes limited to 25km/h and only peddle assist. I know this all may sound like i am bashing the 'all muscle car' view of most usa ebikes seem to have but i am not just think they are a different thing and its probably best if these are split into 2 names and 2 uses since well they are. Part is simply infrastructure i can see why 'only' going 25km/h makes less sense and is even a danger if you need to mix with faster cars where here we have the same but we need to mix with 'normal' bicycles who on avg go 16km/h so 25km/h is a good max (the 250watts limit is not real most do 500-700 watts its the speed thats limited). Mid drives are not niche because some if not the main markets are pushing for them since its easier to get to a 'normal' bicycle where you just feel a little stronger when needed or supermen in your 40,50,60's ... I have multiple ebikes with bafang and bosch but my fav. ride is my riese and muller bicycle with bosch, belt and fully electronic gear system since it simple brings me closest to a normal bicycle i ride it about 1.5h / 2h each day.

[@gordonv2456]

I think mid drive is for me since I easily have a 100 lb on you and I live on top of a ridge where a 500' vertical climb is needed and the end of almost all the rides.

[@Hoggdoc1946]

Perfect use for a properly setup mid drive system.

[@timekeeperg2112]

what a nice place to ride though...really cool!

[@maxheadroom1506]

should use liquid cpu cooling vs fan

[@nathanmcgill4157]

It really doesn't matter that your worried where the trails are if you always turn around.

[@robcoastalga8279]

Is that lake arrowhead community? Trail with the stupid steps looks so familar

[@gladyshughes8497]

We purchased this Vivi 27.5” electric bike and a Tentaquil 26” electric bike for our 13 and 14 year olds. kzbin.infoUgkxUiL0GnyDjP32RJdd660sP8mZk4CRLTCJ The Vivi was much easier to put together. With the Vivi, there was a video link to assist with assembly which made the process easier to follow (we did put the handlebars on upside down, but it was a quick and easy fix). With the Tentaquil, the assembly was not as simple to follow, but after we messaged the company for an assembly video, it was easier and they did respond quickly. The other major differences were that the Vivi has a grip throttle on the right handle (like a motorcycle) and the Tentaquil has a push throttle that you use your thumb to activate. The monitors were also different, so if you’re looking for something specific in terms of changing the bikes functions, pay attention to what the monitor offers. We were really impressed with the overall quality and functionality of both bikes, but if you’re looking for more power and an easier assembly, definitely go with the Vivi!

[@AaronHendu]

There are geared hub motors too...pretty sure the hub haters arent aware of it. You can buy one geared for torque, or speed, or somewhere in between. Saying mid drive makes more torque doesnt really make sense. They make the same torque, which is useable through gearing. Buy the correct hub. You will have torque and hill climb ability.

[@dcryder9736]

You seem to be in pretty good shape can you discuss your diet?

[@jasondundom1390]

kinda shocked we see your face for once lol But anyways i'm stuck between mid drive and rear hub.. Mid drive reason, is the Weight distribution.. i feel like id tweak the back rim on trails tho i usually road ride.. and iv head/seen so many horror storied about the hubs destroying the hangers and dropouts on aluminum bikes.. any (real) truth to this? and finely which (drive) do you think would be fastest for peddle assist 20 mile trips?

[@greenman717]

Hub motors are best for simple people. Mid drive is superior in virtually every metric, the only disadvantages are wear and tear is higher on the chain and sprocket and it's a bit more expensive. A hub motor is a fixed speed, like a single speed BMX, when you accelerate from a stand still you're putting so much strain on the motor. Whereas with a middrive providing you know how to use gears, you're maximising efficiency all the way through. More torque and more top speed, ALWAYS

[@daveanker]

Interesting, but unfortunately your information only applies to USA. In Europe and UK these are unfortunately not legal anyway, so the bulk of what you can buy in shops is 250watt max mid drive.

[@shakyhandpictures2185]

Always balanced analysis, before I bought my mid drive Rize RX pro I watched your video. I’m super happy with my bike but getting use to managing the torque took a couple days. The 1000 watt motor produces wayyyyyy more torque than any human I personally know, and the bicycle derailer and gear cluster aren’t designed for that much stress. I’ve outfitted my custom travel trailer with an extra chain and chain break, it’s a matter of when I break the chain, not if, pulling the teardrop on trails and gravel. Well done, always enjoyable. Cheers, Rick

[@arronjohnston742]

lol if you're breaking chains then you're using cheap shit and or your bike is setup badly, i'm running 2000watts mid drive and never once broken a chain my bike is 50kg(110lbs) and i'm 130kg(280lbs) ........ use better parts bro

[@joebuck4496]

Does the Rohloff internal hub gears negate the stress that mid drives put on drive trains? I'm looking at the Bakcou Mule and I'm trying to think through all of the pros & cons with the internal gear option. Ok sure if you don't make mistakes you shouldn't be breaking chains or chewing up gears...but does the Rohloff hub allow for more user errors without destroying chains or gears? Thanks

[@arronjohnston742]

@@joebuck4496 you only chew parts up by shifting under power and misaligned chains, making little mistakes here an there by shifting under part power the hubs will usually forgive, if you're worried install the shift censor so it cuts power as you shift, where are you? are you in the USA? serious don't buy a store ebike build one, that bike you named is $5,500 you can build one far better for cheaper. even if you're not in the USA look up " Johnny nerd out" he can help you work out what you need in an ebike, he'll also tell you alway go with parts that are well none like bafang, reason spare parts are everywhere.... good luck

[@michaell.2577]

@@arronjohnston742 Would you mind sharing your set up? What parts did you use? I am 245lb and live in an area with alot of hills. Thx.

[@arronjohnston742]

@@michaell.2577 i can but mine is old my new bike will have a bafang bbshd with a 52v 20ah battery your best bet would be to go watch and even contact "johnny nerd out" on youtube, especially if you're in America.... if i were you i'd also make sure what ever where you use has 12g spokes, there's a lot of torque going threw the wheel an us heavier guys add to the strain standard 14g spokes just aren't enough the snap easy, 12g you won't snap..... some my try telling you a bafang bbs02 is all you need say no an go the bbshd it's bigger and spares an upgrades are everywhere...... anything else feel free to ask i'll reply asap

[@Zensaitv]

How fast is the top speed of this hub though? But I do wish middrives we're easier to install and more widely accepted in the industry like easier to find and parts ECT

[@kmtnbike1117]

Noisy ass geared hub. I run a 750w geared hub and a BBSHD mid drive with asi controller on the BBSHD. Mid drive is stone quiet and pulls like a son of a bitch. Hub is only good for starts and assisting up hills if I feel the need but never run the geared hub up hills alone. It’s just a slow weak dog. I’ll admit it’s always nice to have a back up motor if one takes the crapper. Dual monitors, throttles and each run on separate batteries. Juiced City Scrambler

[@Killer-wu9hk]

You mad drunk then, hub drives are the way, look at the wired freedom or ecells, their 1500w motors are not the quietest but def quite than a mid drive and can produce 147nm of torque, almost at the level of a mid drive but much less maintenance and no learning curve.

[@kmtnbike1117]

@@Killer-wu9hk 🍺

[@EBikeBuilder_]

I think you got a sour taste 👅 of mid drives with that CYC, those things are janky and loud, try a BBSHD. I get the CYC can go fast and be great and etc but i think you said it well before, CYC is not as refined. Its not all about going as fast as possible. The customization of the BBSHD with the USB cable is critical. But once you get it dialed you aren’t finding a better ebike motor unless its like an ultra or high end torque sensor mid drive. I would say find a frame for the bafang ultra but they are hard to find lately. But yeah the torque sensing drives from bafang would in theory be better than the BBSHD and there may be some with the programmable controllers exactly like bbshd.

[@eXTreemator]

It's has nothing to do with refinement. Bbs0x doesn't have additional chain. And at high revolutions that factory controller doesn't produce it will also create noise.

[@EBikeBuilder_]

​@@eXTreemator in a previous video NPL said the BBSx not having the additional chain is a more refined design, I was agreeing with that statement

[@eXTreemator]

@@EBikeBuilder_ yes but in exchange it has higher reduction but more noise and no option for large chainring. Bbs is more vulnerable. I have two motor bases torn in two pieces at the crank.

[@arronjohnston742]

@@EBikeBuilder_ the issue with cyc is that internal steel gears it's the same as the cyclone mini makes them loud an whiny, the extra chain isn't an issue, i've done over 30,000miles on my cyclone 3000w setup sure i customised it to suit me but it's quiet and never been a problem, i also like should i need to peddle only i can remove the chain thus lesson the drag, something i can't do with my other bikes bbshd bafang

[@soundtrancecloud5101]

Wow you invented a fan , your opinions value just went so up

[@baitball4665]

If you hunt...mid drive is the only option. Dragging a deer up a big hill needs torque. Gearing your bike right is the biggest thing. Small chainring and a wide range cassette

[@danimccarron8413]

Couple of fuel funnels would work

[@jbaccanalia]

"in case you're wondering I'm not doing any peddling at all here" Total Waist of time doing a mid drive comparison.

[@michaelsprinzeles4022]

If simplicity was a goal the CYC was a poor choice. Secondly a geared hub is no less complex than the average mid-drive. A direct drive hub is simple because it only uses magnets for rotation, no moving parts. When you went for a "geared hub" you got gears creating rotation, so no more simple than a mid-drive.

[@practacticaloutdoorsandthi6962]

I take my mid drive on the trails you turned around on

[@DemiGod..]

Hard to believe that a geared rear hub has less moving parts than a mid drive that uses the bike's gearing. In the uk you can't get assistance above 4mph without pedaling, you go alot faster , I'd consider your bike an electric motorbike, not a ebike. Can't imagine pedestrains would be too happy with you wizzing past them along a shared path at 50mph+ In one state , ebikes have been banned for 2 months after a kid on his ebike killed a 60 year old woman.

[@nathan2813]

At 12:00 you said "I just think you're better off with a mid-drive most of the time." I DID notice (only on review) that you flashed a visual correction to "hub drive". I think you should edit the VERBAL statement so others don't waste data going back and looking for your misstatement for clarificaton. (Either that or (more-likely) just moving on after concluding that you're full of 💩.) :oD

[@Michiganwatch]

Watch me as I jump 33 buses with my 350 motor lol 😂

[@larrylewis4955]

The fans won't do anything without airflow to remove the heat 💨

[@TimChambers-b2o]

You could have fit all those answers in the title

[@nicolasmaximus2286]

That's a lot of noise!!! Sounds like no suspentions!!!😂😂

[@twistedexistence3603]

4:20 That is DEFINATELY, poison ivy central. Stay out of there!

[@ayoutubewatcher7009]

2000 watt 7T direct drive hub motor

[@AaronHendu]

I think most people experience hub motors through cheap oem ebikes...which are 99% garbage due to laws and capitalism. Having owned and used both, built by myself...from reptuable bike frames like my current Trek...hubs rule. My chuna 250w kit runs 750w with the stock parts. I can buy a new battery, and or a nrw controller and be up in the 1500w range. The whole setup was about $500. Sorry but mid drive sucks unless you spend big money. Or all your riding is slow and uphill. My cheap kit does 35mph without doing anything but bolting it on.

[@Zensaitv]

Middrives maybe more complex and maintenance is required but changing tires and the weight balance is much better. They could get hotter as well if you have ones with bad cooling like the bbso2 I have gets hot on sunny days. I prefer mid as I had 4 huh bikes and got sick of them.

[@racrx7]

Hub motor bikes are just two wheeled Jazzy scooters 😂

[@Walter-ol6gd]

First view , First like , First comment ... Today is a good day !!