Not Quite What I Expected... // Simon Line Time-Lapse Review

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[@hiddenleaf414]

Simon did say these prototypes are the most overstable run there will probably be.

[@fuzziemunkey]

Yeah and I'm sure it will be more/less stable in certain types of plastic.

[@derpderpin1568]

Like all molds every plastic is different. The majority of people who will buy this disc don't have the arm speed to throw it effectively.

[@seymourglass26]

@@derpderpin1568True of every 12 5 -1 3 on the market. That's why I'm a Wraith man; I know my limits.

[@chadbizeau5997]

I can't wait for fission Time lapses...

[@frederikprinz3100]

he says what sells the disc! so anything ^^

[@MaximilianBerkmann]

Simon, in his video with Bodanza, said that the prototype run was way more OS than he expected (he even forgot and had the disc fade early on him) but the stock run would fly as expected. One thing worth noting is that with MVP/Axiom discs (especially drivers), you may want to go 10-15g lighter than what you would use from other manufacturers to get the discs to fly like the numbers for you (and that applies to most players). Another advantage of bagging an OS (or even Stable depending on someone's arm speed) is that you can do big skip shots which can't be done (as easily) as with slower discs due to the size of the rim.

[@stability703]

Yea definitely notice all my axiom/mvp discs fly a bit more stable or true to the numbers in most cases compared to other manufactures.. They also seem to keep the shot shape more consistently!

[@JacobPorterLadder]

The Time-lapse in Fission is going to be amazing

[@brandonhulings7461]

I throw the run they released at MVP (which I believe is suppose to be part of the stock run) and they are still very staple. Also I’m not sure they are going to be in light weights yet. If you look at the specs is stated 170-175g for them while all the other discs have lower ranges

[@MaximilianBerkmann]

@@brandonhulings7461 If you bought a max weight first run then yeah, it's going to be beefy (unless you have 150m+ of power where it should show its turn). I've learnt that, even tho I bag 173-175g distance drivers, for the MVP ones (in my case the Defy), they need to be 15g+ lighter to fly like or close to the numbers (especially given it's gyro so more spin is needed to get them to fly correctly).

[@derpderpin1568]

@@stability703 hard disagree with the second part.

[@Grannyknockers]

Simon still the only human I’ve seen get that disc to show any turn

[@seymourglass26]

The -1 stands for how many people other than Simon can flip it.

[@joeblow2426]

I don’t know if it was just a special sale for the tournament, but the Time-Lapse was selling for $30 at the MVP tent at the MVP Open :)

[@MaximilianBerkmann]

From what I've seen in the MVP FB group, those were first runs, not the prototype run. But the stock run is yet to be available to the public so that one might be the most US of the 3 runs.

[@chadbizeau5997]

They were the first production ones.

[@bmfitz2647]

Got mine from MVP as well! Can confirm first run $30 bucks. Awesome disc. 😅

[@vash241987]

I like that they are purposefully adding dome. I know some older paten pending discs had dome, but they were mostly just experimenting with them and not purposefully adding the dome

[@IceBergTV]

Ive been looking forward to seeing people other than simon throw this. When he did that video w bodanza even simon was having it fade left early very consistently. Bodanza threw it well but committed to 45 degrees of anhyzer. Thanks for the solid review!

[@jaythejuiceman3000]

Looking at the profile it looks exactly like a Thoughtspace Synapse which mine was super beefy! Just pure beef! I think they used the Thoughtspace synapse mold and made it gyro.

[@KJDG21]

It's probably based off the DD3 which was based off the destroyer haha. I'm super excited if it's os, that's what I need!

[@mpbx3003]

I grabbed one this morning, and it has genuine dome. The wing is also high enough to make a Horizon Cloud Breaker look like a Tern. It would a utility disc at best for a lot people. Glad mine seems to be abnormal, but I /really/ hope the stock runs are much less beefy if normal people are going to buy them. 😬

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

Yeah it's even more overstable than the Horizon Cloudbreaker!

[@ludvigthorbjrnsen467]

you gotta love an honest opinion, i am thinking about getting one so i'm looking at some vids, glad i watched your's

[@bearislandjosh5279]

Might be good in the winds, which are just beginning to start back up here in Tulsa. I'll just keep using my old AJ Destroyer for that. I can only throw that in headwinds. I did see Simon say that the prototype is more overstable than the production runs will. I don't see myself being able to throw them regardless.

[@PMantle]

You can find Mayems, Octanes, and even Catalysts with very nice dome. I wish I could fine more dome on Waves. In this series, I'll wait for the Time-Lapse SS lol

[@notbulbous42]

agreed - mostly older runs....they need to fix this on more current drivers. not enough glide

[@Psyduck7789]

One thing I will add to the disc speed discussion you started in the video. Anecdotally, as the speed increases my noodle arm can't keep up and every disc becomes OS. There is a secret tradeoff though. Weight. In max weight, I can throw up to 9 speed and know it is flying as intended. But every 1 speed of disc after that requires ~15g drop in weight for my arm to be able to get it up to speed. So my 10 speeds are in ~160g, my 11 speeds are in ~145g, and my 12 speeds are as light as can be found. Currently I have a 135g destroyer and a 132g boss. All these discs fly exactly like the pros discs fly, even out of my noodle arm. My max distance is (currently) 300ft btw. True noodle arm here.

[@ks-pg5sh]

Some of the earlier molds from MVP/Axiom had a decent amount of dome. (I have versions of the Mayhem, Phase, and Vector that are not nearly as flat as what's been produced over the past few years.) I'm not sure which year these were produced, but the discs have an earlier version of their current stamp and lack flight numbers. Looks like this one is going to be a hit.

[@LukeNguyen112]

Yep I remember having a very domey energy when they first started coming out.

[@JMichaelBreitenbach]

Yeah all my old run Panics, Excites, and Relativities (and even Photons) were quite domey

[@wlgrogan]

I'll be curious to see if the stock runs go back to the flatter style we are used to seeing from MVP/Axiom.

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

Yeah that would be curious! I hope not though. I like to have a little dome on them!

[@kierantamm9283]

If you are new to MVP, then sure, this is the first "domey" disc MVP has made since bringing production in house. Prior to MVP bringing production in house, they have a ton of super DOMEY patent pending discs. Pop tops

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

When did they end up bringing production in house? I tried MVP back when they only had a couple putters and a couple mids... Then I tried their first fairway driver they ever made (I think was the volt? that could be wrong though...) But other than that I didn't really try much of their stuff until James Conrad kind of put them on the map again! I just knew in general most of their stuff is shallow and flat 😂

[@aubreyjones2076]

I want to see it up against the Axiom Defy 11/5/-1/3

[@crabbyjimmy1]

I believe it comes down to your size hand personally. So I’m ( in a glove size) a size 8. The larger or longer AKA Eagle 9 or a ten. The ring rim grip is more comfortable. People who are a size 8 tend to have a greater control and distance in 8,9 or 10 in speeds. I bought many distance drivers that were 12 and above aka wider rims and the distance never exceeded a fairway driver. But I had better control over a fairway driver and distance. But it’s never more than 30 to 60 feet. Obviously form is key to distance which I’m still working on.

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

Yeah that might be part of it too! Because I have smaller hands! But there are people out there with the same or smaller hands than I do that do just fine with 12 & 13 speed discs! So idk 🤷‍♂️

[@ILoveAnimation2]

He wanted his DD3. He got it.👍

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

I've never thrown a DD3 close to this in stability though 😂 The stock runs might be closer! but also, the DD3's he's probably wanting to get are the older ones which are literally Destroyers 🤷‍♂️

[@ILoveAnimation2]

Yeah, that’s true🤔

[@hyzervalleydiscgolf]

I bag 2 MVP octanes and they are the only driver from them that i have found that have dome to them

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

Crazy! The octanes I have seen and the ones I got in the store are flat!

[@hyzervalleydiscgolf]

Ive had 3 in total, they are all pretty domey, All fission plastic. @@ApolloDiscGolf

[@JoseSanchez-kh9uw]

It has a champion teedevil profile

[@thebrickfilmer100]

How does it compare to an axiom defy?

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

I haven't thrown a Defy before! I have only thrown a Trace and Zennith

[@SPINNINGMYWHEELS777]

sure a Destroyer you have to throw harder to show up 5 feet short of the destroyer or DD3 (ect) :) if you like that type of thing!

[@JacobPorterLadder]

He did say the proto run was more stable than the stock run

[@MegaLaban12345]

I’ve commited to not bag anything above speed 9 on my local courses, and I’m currently limiting myself to 7-speeds. I will still get one of the stock runs though, because it’s fun to have one. And on bigger, open courses I find 12s useful as wind fighters.

[@southtoe3607]

Simon: can I have a Destroyer Axiom: did you say a less glidey PD2 that doesn't fight an anny but dumps when thrown flat? gotchu

[@getdizzylike]

Looks like a Vulcan top Destroyer

[@tonykaze]

yep.

[@Munchylego]

Forehand? OS discs like that can be excellent forehand discs.

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

Yeah, but even then I think you would have to have a power forehand to get good use out of this!

[@Munchylego]

@@ApolloDiscGolf That’s probably true, and there are a lot of discs that can be overstable flex forehand discs…sort of like Ohn’s style. Someday, maybe I’ll get to try one, and then I’ll really know!

[@chrishudson4410]

I had a Tantrum that was super domey and would bomb but sadly I lost it 😢

[@austing7820]

As someone who loves a destroyer I don’t think they feel anything like a destroyer

[@brettlangle58]

This is a solid review. But these are for the wall. Wait a month for the next run

[@chadbuxton2063]

...... 4x runs are my favorite run of destroyers.... so basically they created a perfect destroyer. No complaints here. Also..... check out older mvp drivers. SUUUUPER domey.

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

Yeah a lot of people saying their older runs of drivers were domey! I never saw those before! Everything I have seen has been super flat... I will have to look for some old stuff to check out!

[@JMichaelBreitenbach]

When MVP brought production in-house all their discs became FAF. Which is sad, because I loved the domey Panics, Excites, Relativities, Photons from years past runs. It seems Simon has been able to convince MVP to start making some discs that aren't just FAF... which will unfortunately introduce some variance in flight compared to the flat shape discs. As already mentioned these proto runs are more OS than stock runs (I'm betting Simon has a few 100 for himself), curious to see how the stock run flies.

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

Yeah, I am curious how the stock runs will come out and see how much turn they will have!

[@justinowen9537]

The flatness came as a byproduct of consistency.

[@oneopinion6806]

I love Simon, but essentially what you're saying is with this prototype (yes I've heard stock will tone it down) it brought the negative aspect of Discmania high speed drivers over to MVP/Axiom. That is, every release they'd say "this is the one, it's so bomber" and every one of the folks saying that is an absolute ripper that a 40+ mortal can't touch. it'd be yet another disc I'd have to excuse as a good wind fighter or something. Fingers crossed over here that the stock run truly comes out a bit more stable to overstable. And yes I would totally go for an upper 160's or 170 at the max on something like this and that IS something MVP/Axiom does better than Discmania by far! EDIT: I'm going to add that it is a mark against MVP/Axiom that if this disc as a proto truly is more OS than even Simon was looking for, that they still put them out there for sale is not a good look. They saw the shiny of the first Simon disc and knew it would sell hot on a limited release. But if this thing came out wildly more OS than intended sometimes a company just needs to eat that run and make a new run to fix the problem. Selling like this, even with the word "prototype" involved, isn't right.

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

I don't knock them for putting it out anyways. Especially as the first ever Simon Line disc, they even said that this was intended as a collector type run. So it's more that people are getting the first ever run of Simon Line discs, even if they missed the mark a little bit... But that's why it's a prototype, its a test to see if that's what they want or what they need to change before the big stock runs of it.

[@oneopinion6806]

@ApolloDiscGolf I understand that, and I'm not saying boycott the company or something. But the term "prototype", perhaps more so in disc golf than other industries, is being tortured out of meaning when the item is sold at retailers. 1st run would be more accurate for anything that actually hits the retail market. What I'm targeting really here is if they made a disc mold that completely missed the mark for what they were intending it negatively impacts the brand even when it will still sell like hotcakes due to the fandom around Simon. I'm glad he's getting this custom line, but it's not a heartening that Axiom's "Destroyer" disc is also copying the knock on Destroyers--that from run to run they vary wildly in stability. I'll totally still get a Time Lapse down the line if and when they settle down on flight dynamics. It just feels like a rush-to-market for the "proto" run.

[@derpderpin1568]

The disc was designed for Simon to use. It's being mass produced for everyone else after that fact. Simon needs a disc like this, you don't. It is what it is. You're also WAY too hung up on semantics. Get over it.

[@oneopinion6806]

@@derpderpin1568 I don't think it's overly semantic. But I'll just add Simon can throw nearly 2x as far as I can. I get that he's a different breed and can make it work. But it's of note that he was also surprised at the OS nature of the "proto" disc, on camera in fact. That would seem to indicate it was off from what he had in his own vid at the unboxing and first throws.

[@justinowen9537]

Gotta work on eliminating upspeak.

[@kevinjoseph3183]

Hey Dave, you are all sold out on the site. ETA on more first runs ? **I watched to the end. Dang. lol

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

I won't be getting any more prototypes. I think now its just waiting for the stock runs to come out

[@billherrera6386]

Most mortals will not be able to throw the Proto Time Lapse they way it should be thrown. That is why they will make the stock run less overstable. I can wait for the normal run and buy it for 17 to 20 bucks.

[@Kryptic513]

They are already at $250+ on Ebay

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

That’s nuts

[@kieronmckay4276]

What Simon looks for as a former distance world record holder with elite spin and form, and what a casual disc golfer who can maybe hit 400ft looks for in a disc are going to be 2 wildly almost polar opposite things... so take the marketing with a grain of salt.

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

I mean, Simon still likes to throw understable and finesse stuff! I think he even said these proto's came out more overstable than he was wanting. He was wanting that disc that is workable and can be usable for slower arms as well and not just elite throwers.

[@pbgamble]

Shoulda compared this to a Synapse or Goat.

[@Atreyu-2]

13 year MVP Thrower here.....since they started basically. Us old heads know that once you break them in, and it takes longer than most, by being patient, you will have a fantastic disc that holds its lines alot longer than most. So proud of this Company for what they have accomplished! Team Maple Valley Plastic all the way

[@seymourglass26]

Get ready for the review of the real run in 1 month, haha. I'll watch that one, too.

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

That one I am going to be more interested in for sure!

[@nickgeisler5409]

Hopefully they make them in lighter weight

[@SPINNINGMYWHEELS777]

anyone else find MVP discs are harder to find in the grass ?

[@TMRaven]

Of the MVP Relativities I've thrown, they're all usually pretty domey-- noticeably more domey than that Time Lapse you have. They also go really far too. I've never really seen a domey overstable distance driver out of them though.

[@discjunkiesDGT]

hit me up David if yo don't want it after all? Good Video!!

[@SPINNINGMYWHEELS777]

$39.95 is hilarious

[@frederikprinz3100]

signature discs and special prints all over ....... hard to get a standard run these days for little money! I will def. not buy the prototype from simon lizotte for 40$ what the duck .... keep it human MVP Discs, keep it human!

[@JohnBell3]

Nope. I don't know who you've been talking to. I've got domey Dimensions, Catalysts, and Deliriums. I used to have some domey Ocatnes and Nitros.

[@Babl069]

It's not for most players. That is just some bs to make it sell better. We need to wait for the stock runs if they are any different but I'm not that optimistic about that either.

[@sickeffect]

What kills me is people that have no business throwing a disc like this got their hands on one and those of us that can throw this disc can't because we can't get our hands on one except marked up on ebay. I'd rather have the more overstable version than the less overstable thats coming out soon

[@discjunkiesDGT]

come on David, it's a DD3 bro, why no DD3 in the mix here?

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

No DD3 I have ever tried could keep up with this 😂 I brought out the Horizon Cloudbreaker, but even that couldn't really stand up beside the Destroyer, Warbird, and Time-Lapse 😂

[@discjunkiesDGT]

@@ApolloDiscGolf Come on.... DD3's have the same numbers, come on... Let your buddy with the bigger arm try it against the Time Lapse or was their a disclaimer that you can't compare it to DM?

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

​@@discjunkiesDGT I had my friend throw the Horizon Cloudbreaker next to them, and the Cloudbreaker was noticeably straighter than all of them, and turned more before it came back. The Timelapse was definitely more in the category of the beefy Destroyer and Warbird.. And all the DD3's I have were noticeably straighter than the Horizon one! even for my arm speed! So I honestly didn't bother bringing them out! And there was no disclaimer! MVP didn't send any out for reviews... this had to come from the 10 I was allowed for the store!

[@discjunkiesDGT]

@@ApolloDiscGolf Thanks for the replies, helped a ton. DD3's are much more beefy, i'd say you and i throw about the same 380+. Cool bro, keep u the great reviews!!

[@thunderwolf5732]

My closest store that sells discs is selling these for 159.99 💀💀

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

Oof

[@josephmcgowan4436]

I feel like a destroyer to get the full flight you need 400 plus to throw them the right way....

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

Yeah, but these are on the more overstable side of Destroyers! Even when Wes throws them 425-450, they barely turn! And the Timelapse still didn't turn!

[@josephmcgowan4436]

@ApolloDiscGolf before I tore my bicep Tendon I had 550 on a forehand with a star destroyer, and that was coming out super flat to maybe a little bit on Ani, and it held that turn for probably 150-200 feet before it would fade back gradually

[@discgolflife]

I have no desire to throw this disc. I own stable destroyers for a fraction of the cost. I love mvp - axiom products but not for that cost...

[@dbx_1]

If you aren’t throwing 500+ there’s really no point in throwing this first run unless it’s super windy.

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

Yup! Or if you REALLY don't want to chance going right

[@reidkemp]

Old mvp drivers (patent pending) were domey

[@MattsoooN]

Dude ofc he say its for everybody, but did anyone actually think it would be? They want to sell discs ofc he doesnt say ”its only for pro level arms”.

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

He intended to make a disc that is good for any arm speed but also a bomber for pros, these just came out more overstable than he initially was looking for

[@derpderpin1568]

@@ApolloDiscGolf That's an oxymoron. Pros simply throw too much harder than 'everyone'. A Wraith is for everyone except pros who burn them over too easily. A destroyer is for pros and not for everyone. There is no middle ground between there if you actually want a good distance driver. This disc is more like a destroyer. It's for pros and ams that actually have the arm power for it. The overwhelming majority of 12+ speed discs are not ever going to be 'for everyone'.

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

Garret Gurthie throws and utilizes Wraiths effectively, same with Big Jerm. Simon uses the Wave for bomber shots, and that's one of the better distance drivers for ams. Paul uses the Hades and Zeus that are good for ams. They definitely exist...@@derpderpin1568

[@MattsoooN]

@@ApolloDiscGolf Nah, I dont really buy it. Simon wants a destroyer and a destroyer aint for everyone. They want to sell discs. Simon do what they tell him to do.

[@TheGreatestJuJu]

This is the problem with disc manufacturers, there’s no quality control. Flight characteristics are the most important part of a disc. Every run produced should have the same reliable flight when brand new. Simon has said the initial prototype he was given to test was much more understable than the Limited Edition run sold to public. It’s disappointing MVP didn’t deliver on his vision. Lastly, a disc that flys like a Destroyer but for the majority of arm speeds is the Wraith. In my opinion, this is what MVP/Simon should’ve aimed for. The majority of players will never get a Destroyer like disc to flip.

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

That's just the nature of the business... If you look for a company that makes the disc to have the exact same flight from run to run, you either won't find them, or you need to go with a company so small they only have one run of each disc... every manufacturer will have inconsistencies from run to run. It's part of disc golf that you just have to learn and adapt to. And this is a prototype, it's basically a test run to see what kinks they need to iron out before opening up the massive production runs of them.

[@derpderpin1568]

Every plastic formula is going to be slightly different regardless of however much QA you throw at it. The bigger problem is youtubers who don't have the arm to throw these discs saying they don't fly by the numbers because they're literally incapable of throwing the disc hard enough. The problem is that nearly all disc reviewers are complete amateurs who aren't actually able to make any disc on the market over a 7 speed fly correctly. The disc was also designed for Simon to use and is mass produced after that fact. A Wraith is completely useless to someone like him. Your fantasy that all disc runs can and should be produced absolutely identically is so delusional and out of touch with reality.

[@TheGreatestJuJu]

@@ApolloDiscGolfIt’s a part of current disc golf but it’s not an unsolvable problem for the future of the sport. Producing a disc that always flys consistently when brand new is not against the laws of physics but a question of value (bang for the buck), that manufacturers have decided the public wasn’t ready to pay for yet, obviously, I disagree. This was a missed opportunity by Simon and MVP. They should’ve used the launch of the Simon Line to be the first DG Premium Line of disc that guarantees quality. Each disc has been “Flight Tested” or “Laser Scanned to ensure dimensions”. Every other sport has ‘Entry level’ equipment and ‘Pro level’ high quality equipment, sold for a premium price as well. $40 a disc for guaranteed flight characteristics (quality) and the brand of disc golf’s ‘most popular player’ should’ve been the start of a new era for DG. A Premium product line will also be necessary if you ever want to convince the large sports brands to enter the DG market and this is when the sport truly takes off. However, you’ve got to build it before they will come. Prove that disc golfers will spend more of their discretionary spending because of brand and quality. Simon Line would’ve been perfect fit for a new concept in DG centered around these values.

[@gromba]

Simon was being disingenuous to sell the disc.

[@brosa1212]

Not for me

[@n8barnhart]

40 bucks? Hard pass.

[@chadkelley4267]

It's a prototype. The price is reflective of it as a collector item. Limited run and coveted. The stock runs will be normal price. Which I will wait for myself.

[@n8barnhart]

@@chadkelley4267 Thanks Chad, I didn't know it was a protype. I thought the SimonLine has been out for many years now. Thank You for your expert advice on pricing and I will buy 42 of these protypes for my collection now.