Reacting to: THE LAST CHURCH with Ava & Kari

[@The_Sigillite]

The fesco of the warrior slaying the dragon is actually of the Emperor fighting the Void Dragon before imprisoning it on Mars.

[@Hunter12365]

One of those "I was using god like powers, but I was not being a God" 🙄😅🤭

[@kristophermichaud4467]

That leads me to another question: who tf painted it? Seriously, who saw that and went 'man I gotta break out the pigments'

[@GwainSagaFanChannel]

​@@kristophermichaud4467 Malcador in his free time trying painting as a hobby I cannot think of anyone else

[@The_Sigillite]

@@kristophermichaud4467 Well, the story mentions a great artist who was commissioned to paint the relief, so I see two possibilities: 1, The story had entered legend due to the psychic might of the not yet God Emperor of mankind defeating the Void Dragon. Or 2, the artist herself was a psyker who had visions of the event or was painting around the time it happened.

[@kristophermichaud4467]

@GwainSagaFanChannel Solid point. His powers would have made it possible for him to survive/witness it as well. "Sir, we've found it, an unmodified Malcador charcoal etching of... by the Emperor, is that what the world's most powerful psyker used to look like? Sheesh. Hurts to look at."

[@bobthejester3105]

When the priest says do you feel joy or excitement when someone moves on. He’s not likely referencing that specific phenomenon as there usually isn’t a gleeful anticipation as he mentions.

[@Mister-Thirteen]

One thing I find strange is why of all the changes in the adaptation; they chose to keep all the references to the second drink being whiskey...Yet colored it as wine.

[@TheChosenofKhorne]

Yes! Been looking forward to this. Helsreach next?

[@morganus1360]

One thing about Apocalypsis as a name: while apocalypse had been associated with the end of the world, what it was originally was simply text that foretold of future events, usually religious in nature. The reason is become another way to say the end of the world is because that was a common subject among them. His name could be read as him calling himself the end, but it could alternatively be ready as him calling himself the future, which I think fits more with Emp's whole deal.

[@SmartKidofTrains]

Yeah indeed, Apokalipsis in old greek literally means 'revelation'

[@Wertsir]

He’s also got the same Omega-Giga-Chad physique as En Sabah Nur. Just paint him grey and give him weird lips.

[@helios7170]

Revelation texts were presented as prophecy, but the Jewish tradition itself is polemic. The Revelation of John for instance is about contemporary events

[@panagosu]

@@SmartKidofTrainsit’s the same in current greek too

[@gustavsyren]

The key issue is why the emperor is so against faith and religion. He knows that any being with either could suddenly summon the most horrible of demons into the world to devour and destroy everything. The emperor is the epitome of the end justify the means. And since the thing he is attempting to stop is the most horrifying apocalyptic stuff ever, he can use any means without any reason to hold back.

[@leahsander5490]

Yeah, but his means are dumb. Look at the Interex. They seemed to deal with Chaos way better than the Imperium. Being a warmongering conqueror doesn't seem to hem in Chaos that much, weird that...

[@Majorfuckinghero]

@@leahsander5490 We don't know that. For all we know, the Emperor could have seen a future where any human civilisation that wasn't part of the Imperium, would inevitably fall to chaos down the line. And while a terrible, morally ambiguous decision at best, destroying them now while they aren't fully blown demon-summoning chaos cultists, might be preferable than to wait for it to happen. He does after all have some incredible psychic foresight. Most, if not all his actions are predicated on that very idea. And as a reader you're meant to question whether the end justify the means. You can hate him for it, you can find it morally abhorrent, but in the grand scheme of things, in his mind, in his vision, it might be the only key to humanity's survival in the long run. But he even says it himself; that despite his foresight he's isn't infallible. I think it's in the book "Master of Mankind" where he tries to explain to one of his Custodians, Ra, that while he might see all possible futures at once, it doesn't necessarily mean he knows the path to the destination he wants to reach.

[@LakesideTrey]

There was a nice golden age of human history before the AI uprising too that wasn't as presumably opresssivw

[@krankarvolund7771]

Fun fact, during an interview, Graham McNeil said that the Last Church is located on the Isle of Skye, where the gigantic stone of the Old Man exists for real and can be visited, you can hike on the place of a 40K novel XD

[@GamerGrovyle]

Fuck it. Bucket list-

[@colinwalker6804]

The emperor isn’t a cruel man necessarily, he is someone who thinks of himself as a man, but is detached in a lot of ways from what it means to be human. For whatever reason, be it his insane lifetime or that he was formed this way, he seems to have given up his humanity, compassion, and empathy to achieve his power and goals. He doesn’t seem to understand how normal people think, doesn’t know how to relate to normal people and the emotions they feel. This becomes especially apparent whenever he is dealing with the topic of faith and religion. When it is useful or not harmful to him presently, like with the Tech Priest of Mars, he is willing to turn a blind eye for the sake of having useful tools, but outside that…if you can’t show it to be invaluable, he will stamp it out. He doesn’t seem to understand that he makes martyrs, that the harder he tries to remove faith from people the more they believe and resent him in particular. This will come back up when you guys eventually talk about Lorgar. When religion/faith helps him, he turns a blind eye. When it is hurting his goals, he deems it a problem to be removed. That said his lack of feeling empathy and sympathy will be a constant theme when talking about his parenting skills, or rather the lack of them. Lastly, part of this story is to show his hypocrisy in his Atheism alongside the irony that everything he rails against will be done in his name once he is unable to fight against those who call him a god.

[@spartana1116]

His lack of empathy and understanding can be shown when he tried to recruit angron before he told him to fuck off that he'll die with his gladiatorial kin The emperor couldn't understand why one of his sons refused to join him and was willing to die for a handful of slaves who die all the time

[@RichardX1]

Re: Female characters in 40k... Two words: Lotara Sarrin

[@Skiritai]

Saint Celestine Inquisitor Grey CarFax Yvairne

[@the_WAAAGGHH]

I can't believe all of you forgot about guillimom!​@@Skiritai

[@oga-booga]

"fans" who think there are no female characters in 40k just dont know 40k

[@akshayhere]

@@oga-booga I mean the ratio is certainly skewed.

[@Scowleasy]

Emperor: look at how damaging religion was “Mind telling me what caused old night?” Emperor: 😐 “It was science wasn’t it?” Emperor: anyway time to die

[@jdcoolha]

Tbf it was mostly the Eldar's fault

[@DeathMessenger1988]

​@@jdcoolha And, if you wanna go even deeper, it was also the Necron & Old Ones' fault, waging the War On Heaven that created the first three Chaos Gods and the C'tan, and ruined the Realm of Souls.

[@TheSiladhiel]

This is a common misconception. The fall of the men of Iron was a symptom of the age of strife. Not the cause of it. The warp waxes and wanes. At the time of the beginning of the age of strife, the warp waxed, Slannesh was born... and psyckers exploded onto the scene within the human race. So.... welcome to the age of chaos. And what happens when you mix religion and chaos? The men of irons revolt came after the downfall of humanity had already began. It was the end of of a secular society and the corruption of the warp that ended the golden age and brought about the Age of Strife / Old night. They didnt revolt begcause humans were suddenly too nice. Bishes went crazy with the pew pew lazers coming out of their eyes n shit while their souls screamed in demonic. ps; Interesting to note the according to the emperor in at least one of his dream walks with Ra... he was born into a society that was NOT secular. He himself as a child observed burial rights for his own father.

[@DeathMessenger1988]

@@TheSiladhiel So, yet again, it's all Slaanesh's fault. And she's all the Eldar's fault. And Chaos in general is all the Old Ones' fault. So, as ever, blaming science alone is stupid. :) I think it's interesting that the whole skull motif the Imperium has comes from the Emperor's tribe and their burial tradition of sons keeping and polishing their fathers' skulls. It's not exactly something necessarily logical and secular, has some bad historical rap due to the Nazis and quite possibly stuck to young Big-E in a traumatic way, but the Emperor may have kept the motif in honor and memory of his father and tribe, or as a tribute and way of mourning all the losses humanity suffered in the Age of Strife. Biggest tragedy about Neoth Revelations is that he ISN'T an evil man. There's clearly a person under all the gold armor and light and demigod might, and a well-meaning one too. But much like Paul and Leto Atreides in Dune, he bore the mantle of tyrant and warmonger and cast away his morality and feelings so he could preserve humanity, at the expense of his own and that of his sons... And he still failed.

[@tariqshort4025]

Even though the Emperor hates religion he still showed some respect for Uriah and even wanted him to join him and help him when he could easily have just killed him or thrown him out of the church leaving him with no purpose.

[@Halfort57]

He would have done that. If Uriah had been as annoying as previous priests

[@Raylockthehellion]

The custodians ship The Emperor and Uriah as well.

[@real9270]

You really would have benefited from a little sound test at the beginning. Just taking a moment to make sure that you and the video have roughly the same volume.

[@drew6145]

My name is Ominos Forbodingus. Son of Doomicus Endadaysum. Friend of John Reckoning and Murdock Murderson

[@possiblepuzzles8137]

I mentioned it on the original, but Big E's downfall can be summarized as "he couldn't empathize with the feeling of powerlessness, and the desperation that it creates"... And look where it brought him...

[@gasalpha879]

That's the best way I have seen anyone describing him, the emperor obviously loved humanity , but he was so beyond it he couldn't relate to them, and as such understand why faith was such an important thing for us, trully a tragedy.

[@aldrinmilespartosa1578]

Being trapped on a chair, worshipped by millions, and sons turn traitors, destroying the thing he has strive to build. Only then that he reached true hopelessness....

[@TheMortalkombatant23]

Thanks for the moments you guys were able to focus on the video and discuss the concepts therein

[@SuperInsanewolf]

In Big E's defense Apocalypsis feels less up his own ass than calling himself "Revelations" does

[@NoOne-us9os]

The song at the beginning is called. Dagothwave

[@sloshed-rat]

And it's LIT

[@przemysawseredyszyn1405]

by Young Scrolls

[@bencebenedek2610]

2:01:26 "I'm totally not a god" said the 12 ft tall gold clad giant radiating energy like a sun with a voice of a thousand people and a face chizzled from marble who was an average gymbro just a second ago.

[@WilliamMoses355]

"But you have to obey me without question and kill millions in my name anyway."

[@LakesideTrey]

What ticked me about Apocalypses' debate style was the interjection of insult and assuming he knew the minds of all who disagreed with him. "They claimed her painting was holy because they were jealous" "Given those in the holy books are immoral, I should not be surprised the Rogue became a priest" "Your damnable book" Even when the Emperor knows the priest was worshipping him, he doesn't use it as an educational moment like "sure I may be superpowered and glowy but I'm still just a dude like you. Let's work on desconstructing your worldview" he just asks the priest to join his crusade, sets his house on fire, then watches him commit suicide.

[@LakesideTrey]

also phrases like "all you priests" making generalizations of entire groups of people to justify a purge against them completely fallacious reasoning

[@ecyor0]

"I'm going to pretend to be God speaking to this priest for years so that I can absolutely destroy him in a debate down the line" is definitely the most redditbro move the Emperor ever pulled.

[@Kyle-yr1ok]

‘I feel like the emperor of mankind didn’t go into this conversation with the intent to offer informed consent’ made me laugh so damn hard.

[@lexthefirst]

Sorry but a priest is by default an evangelist and should be expected to answer questions about the religion. And while springing this on someone unprepared may sound, again, a priest of all people should be prepared to answer questions of faith, more than anyone else. If he has expressed a desire to end the conversation and Emps continued or harassed him that would be one thing. But the conversation, while charged, remained civil. So the remarks about having the conversation being unfair are not warranted in my view.

[@alshabib5849]

The reason why the emperor and the imperium hate xenos isn't just for xenophobias sake (although it would evolve that way as simple tradition and learned behaviour). The emperor was around during the dark age of technology and would have originally as far as we know been, like ye rest of humanity at that time been at worst Indifferant to Aliens. The dark age humans had large trade networks with multiple xeno empires and multiple worlds and polities had non aggression and alliance pacts with aliens. As soon as it was apparent that human navies couldn't respond due to the warp storms from slaneesh's birth, many of these aliens who had claimed to be humanities allies began to strike and take dominant position over the cut off and isolated colonies, enslaving, torturing, eating and worse to the defensless. Encounters with the dark eldar all on their own would be enough to leave a cultural mark for millennia and irs why even non earth humans who entered the imperium had no real problem with the no xenos policy. The great crusade itself would often find former human worlds where humans were preyed on as livestock, one of the primarchs, Mortarian grew up in one of these environments

[@admiralmurphy1543]

My favorite Guilliman nickname has to be "Bobby G" just because it rolls off the tongue

[@Kyrobinthian]

Same with emps being called "big E"

[@corryjamieson3909]

​@@KyrobinthianLion-O J

[@pandorasangel2747]

Cor Cor

[@dontaskquestions8721]

I have a headcannon that somewhere out there is the Emperors personal AI who didn't revolt and try to overthrow humanity, because big Emps convinced it of Humanities greatness.

[@samuelspry6955]

37:37 His disdain for religion is founded on the primordial truth. He rages against the Chaos Gods in a conceited attempt at disarming, and or ultimately defeating them, by making mankind ignorant to religion. They feed on worship, and the only shitty thing about Big E going about it in this way: Is that ignorance, when the mind asks a question, TRULY seeking an answer? Is the most easily manipulated by what the truth brings.

[@TohuBohu6]

3:35 start time 6:09 Overview of book setting/plot 9:40 Adaptation 20:10 Differences between book and adaptation, discussion of location 25:45 Return to adaptation 30:10 Plato's Cave? 34:05 Pause, discussion of points, discussion of informed consent on the conversation and the duplicity of it 38:05 Difference between religion and faith, what is faith? 50:28 Emps being a hypocrite 56:40 One Minute to Midnight 1:09:25 Firing squad gore warning 1:15:50 Thunder warriors in battle, more gore 1:19:00 End of gore area and battle1 1:22:30 Priest witness emps, thinks it's a god 1:28:20 "You know of... Breeding?" 1:31:00 "Emps not a very good communicator, kinda toxic, lack of respect and feels like reddit dumping trauma" 1:34:00 Actual arguments for once about faith rather than "PRove it or not" 1:37:30 The writer talking to himself vs depicting a reasonable argument, lack of research from writer? 1:40:45 Discussion of the arguments & morality, what is religion 1:46:20 "Based emperor destroys virgin priest" Ayo? 2:01:00 "No More Games" 2:07:45 "Wuh uh hmm wuh hoo hua hoo" (Song removed) 2:08:22 SYMBOLISM 2:08:40 Finished, discussion of what they thought of it 2:10:10 "I am not a god"

[@kevintoutcourt4164]

The Crusade the emperor was refering to was "in the land of the Franc". To be precise, it took place in the south-west of France (my home !) against the Cathares. It is truly a sad story. The Cathares were believing in a form of christianity that was deeply non-violent and open-minded. Catholic Church went "Hey ! convert !" "Nope'" Cathares replied, because they were seeing the Church as deeply corrupted (which it was), moral and close-minded (which it also was). "Convert or be excommunicated !" said the Church. "Don't care" they replied because they didn't recognize its authority anyway and they were a big enough community for it not to have too severe economic consequences. The Church tried to convert them through debates, then threats and it was a complete failure. The Pope then tried to convince the King of the Francs to help with this issue in a more... Virilistic way. At the first, it was a nope (As usual, we were in conflict with England). This situation went on for a few decades until the assassination of a priest (the reasons for this assassination and the culprits were never really identified but it was a pretexte anyway), the Church found a perfect occasion to incite the lords to Crusade (giving them Indulgences because of course killing everyone disagreeing with the Church grants you paradise) and forced the King to authorize it (He then used this occasion to expand the royal domain). In the following decades, the Crusade and then the Inquisition killed hundreds of thousands of people.

[@TycoonTitian01]

1:22:25 The demon of babylon disguises himself with the coat of the righteous!

[@Billmaster115]

As a student of theology, I have to way I am with the Emperor on this one. Graham McNeil should have done some research because what he would have discovered he could have had a greater impact. I will not go into a long and detailed text, but some of the most disgusting religious texts I have found are as follows, with a brief explanation. (Me, after rereading my text: huh, broke that promise) Anathasius and Anselm in particular. These are basically the fathers of many sects of Christianity, and they went over the concept of Original sin is that we have inhereted damnation from Adam and Eve for eating of the Apple from the Tree of Knowledge, that all sins both trivial and extreme are equal, because sin is to steal from God that which he is owed, and so we must throw literally everything we can at God to recieve forgiveness for a sin we inhereted and had no control over, but the juxtaposition is that, by virtue of existence, you can never do enough. Those that believe this are setup to reject any authority beyond the premise that does not in some way lead them closer to salvation. Book of Numbers, chapter 31, with a subheading called "Vengeance on the Midianites". It is a pretty gruesome text, God commands Moses to slaughter the Midianites and take their women as sex slaves. This is also the same text that was used to justify the translatlantic slave trade on religious grounds, as it is believed Africans were the Midianites. Not without cause either, Midianites were described as dark skinned. These are just three examples, and I think I made my point. If I go any further, I think KZbin will not be happy. As a little response to the idea that education leads to good morals, some of the most evil people in history were some of the most well educated and highly esteemed academics. Nazi Germany and the Salem Witch Trials were perpetuated and reinforced by the most well educated people of their time. So it cannot be good education, it may be that good education leads to a more critical exanination of the world, but ultimately, your morals and ethical foundations do not need justifying. So we have to accept that, even if there was a room of 6 people who knew absolutely everything that can ever be known, they would still have six different moral foundations with a corresponding antithesis across the table from them.

[@dz1_randomviewah]

@1:00:16 He wasn't wishing harm on himself, he was expressing a wish that there was something he could blame his bad behavior on, rather than being responsible for it

[@lastcastawayproductions]

Empa wasn't trying to convince Uriah to End his life, the priest deside he'd rather die with his faith than live in the empire teaching something he did not believe in. The emperor didn't stop him, but let him finish things on his own terms

[@fishpop]

The Emperor is a well-intentioned extremist, only the lengths he goes to are far more extreme than the norm, considering of bringing all of the galaxy under his rule.

[@tariqshort4025]

1:05:00 5 '11 vs 6 foot.

[@childofathena9420]

My favourite character in 40k is Lotara Sarin aka the baddest bitch in the universe. One of the only people to sass ANGRON.

[@TheSiladhiel]

Heres the thing about the emperor. When he said to uriah..."I know i am right". He WAS right. To think that under normal circumstances, any one man regardless of his power, could shepard an entire species towards a single goal etc etc... the sheer hubris of that is insane. But... The circumstances were not normal. The emperors plan was take the entire human species... who in his secular society already would have stopped believing in any gods... and thus...lessen the power of chaos... he was going to take the entire species... every single human.. everywere... out of reality as we know it and move them into the web way. This would have cut Us off from the effects and reach of the warp. For ever. And only one man had the power and knowledge to do it. Him. He was not lying... exaggerating etc. He was telling the 100% truth. There was no hubris in it. He could do it. Magnus screwed that all up. But right up until the moment The magnus dropped the wards that protected the human created passages into the webway in the throne room, His words were true. even the Heresy wouldnt have changed that. Magnus fucked it all up. Interestingly... the only reason it now cant be done... is because the one person that can do it... has had his soul split in two and half of it is literally on a stay cation in the warp. And its the most human part of him capable of love etc.

[@dravendarkplays9607]

Damn right

[@TheSiladhiel]

@@RaptieFeathers I disagree. I dont think there is a bad guy. Or a good guy. There is only war. And literally every race he exterminated... had done the same thing. He was eradicating everything that had a connection to chaos. The Aeldari... a weapon made to fight a war. Necrons. A weapon made to fight as war. Orks. A weapon made to fight a war. and so on and so forth. They made us (the old ones)... but not as a weapon. And from us... came a choice made by the most evolved of the species they made for shits and giggles who decided to wipe out all the weapons they made and remove Mankind from taint of the warp. He himself could very well be... a weapon... made to fight a war. We dont know. But is he evil for doing what he is doing? Define evil in that universe. Is the warp evil? Are the Gods of the warp? They are reflections of living emotion. They are as much as anything a refection of us. Are we evil? Hes the fact about the emperors plan. It would have worked. he could do it. He almost did... which is why the gods drove so hard to have their heresy. He was right. He did not lie.. exaggerate... and it was not hubris. He had the power and the knowledge and the will the make it manifest and NO other human could do it. ever. But HE ....could. Does the fact that he was right...make him...right? Ethically...morally? Theres no yes or no answer to that. It entirely perspective. But ... What he said in that last church.. was true... and he was right. When he said he knew he was right. He could deliver what no priest ever could. True salvation. And no god was needed. Its maths. He did the math and with that and his presience found; like dr strange in the avengers, the one path he could see that saved mankind. And since Magnus fucked up... hes literally playing it by ear for the last 10,000+ years.

[@Brutalyte616]

Magnus fucked up, but that fuck up is because of the events Erebus and Kor'Phaeron set in motion. Doubly so because the Word Bearers being sent back in time was the inciting incident that scattered the Primarchs across the galaxy and caused Lorgar to grow up under Kor'Phaeron's abuse and allowed that shitheel who killed a boy named Erebus and stole his name to even had a chance to become the Space Marine that fucked everything up

[@TheFudorin]

I watched this video after Ava mentioned it in one of the early episodes of "Explaining Warhammer to my Girlfriend" series. Now I'm loving getting to hear your reactions!!

[@fishpop]

15:18 Mariana *Canyon* and not Mariana Trench cos all of Terra's water is no more. How humans survive without it i don't know.

[@Darkgun231]

There probably is still some water, located here and there, likely in reservoirs and ponds and the like, but the oceans are either gone because colonists took it all during the early days of exploration for terraforming, or Warp shenanigans from the birth of Slaanesh drained it.

[@DY__599]

Look, I think some of your comments are good, and I understand it's a long video, but there are quite a few times where the anwer to a question, or additional context to a comment you've made is entirely missed, because you talk over the video. This isn't to shit on your reaction, as I like it - but, I just throught I'd voice a frustration, as perhaps it is shared, and perhaps it can help you guys in the future. Overall, however, I like the video - keep it up, the banter between the two of you is great. Edit: If it's not clear, I'm of the opinion that in many places pausing the video, before talking, would be a good idea :)

[@Fordo007]

If I recall, doesn’t Apocalypse mean Revalation? So it’s the same name.

[@SmartKidofTrains]

It does, originally in greek, indeed

[@badrhetoric5637]

A small correction about the various witch trials. England was fairly resistant to the witch craze, it was very much the mainland. Also the salam witch trials and the whole witch craze was bizarrely strong in america long after europe calmed down.

[@possiblepuzzles8137]

Additionally, I remember a video that described how the Spanish inquisition arose because of a LACK of proper inquisitions (where the church does an inquiry into its own ranks looking for the crazies... And the objective being to debate them into calming down [execution being proof of failure]).

[@loreman2803]

The Emperor has points but then loses them after deciding that not only was he right but that he could convice a priest out of his faith, almost like a final victory for him? Hes conquered the world with words and weapons and this was his final victory, the Victory over Religion and Faith. The irony of this entire interaction is sad

[@NUMBSKULLS]

Ava here: My absolute favorite characterization of Big E is the fact that no matter how much he might want it, he will NEVER be human. He can talk all he wants, he can fight and conquer worlds, destroy hundreds upon thousands of civilizations that go against his plan in the name of something greater, but at the end of the day he is something beyond humanity, something completely alien wearing the mask of a human. The fact that he criticizes religion, only focusing on the bad parts (ie: the crusades), and uses that to justify his GIANT MEGA CRUSADE, only focusing on the good parts, is peak irony, and I love it so much.

[@loreman2803]

@@NUMBSKULLS whats even worse beyond sponsoring super soldiers acting out Terrorism and genocide above all, he becomes a god, he become the thing he claimed not to be. Nullifying his acts in the name of Secularism

[@ajollyduck]

One lore tidbit that I'm 90% sure is non-canon now is that the Thunder Warriors had partially powered armour, specifically that the legs were unpowered. Regarding the ending He represents Order. It may be tyrannical and unyielding Order, but it's still Order.

[@noctusdoesthings]

The Last Church AKA Nathan Explosion Has a Theological Debate with Baz Then Ascends to Roman Godhood

[@fishpop]

3:38 - Stream Start 9:30 - Watchalong Start

[@alshabib5849]

The emperors fatal flaw is that his formative experience is his father being murdered in cold blood by his uncle. That trauma during childhood basically informs his decisions millennia into the future to the point her inherently believes mortal people are savages that need to be herded. He views faith as a result as just another stone to crack open someone's head with and himself as the dutiful parent seperating the wayward child from the stone

[@bkzomen1]

Also you guys know the Emperor doesn't want ppl praising him right? His whole goal is to make humans just like him

[@lexthefirst]

The funny thing is Emps probably is right. But expecting people to believe in him on that basis is where he falls into hypocrisy. He intends science and reason to be the foundation of humanity. Well and good. And he has damn good reasons for doing it. Yet he is still lying.

[@ShinigamiSamaH]

Both 40k and Fantasy Orks are a mix of animals and fungi. With 40k, they are the creation of the Old Ones to fight the Necrons. In Fantasy, it is believed that the Old Ones accidentally introduced them into the world or that their spores drifted in from space via unknown means.

[@YOGI-kb9tg]

I thought they were just some of the natural species like dragons that already existed and are just one of the remaining species the lizard men couldn't wipe out to extinction.

[@Kenpachi4904]

Emperor with a mustache would be Yuwach Bach from Bleach TYBW lol

[@Jessie_Helms]

3:38 is when it starts

[@KenkuRogue]

fun fact, the lightning stone was the Old Man of Stoor, so the last church on Terra in 40k was in Scotland

[@rakshithanand8262]

Something important that I feel is often overlooked from this story is the ending. Uriah leaves the Emperor to die, and the Emperor *lets him go*. He had every reason to stop him physically, kill him himself or even just brainwash him into compliance. But he didn't. If the Emperor only believed in power, if he wanted the 'best ending', he probably should have kept Uriah around as a trophy, yet he didn't. Despite all the supposed necessity and grandiose declarations of 'I am the only way'. he did at least respect Uriah's choice, even if that choice was a rejection of everything the Emperor stood for.

[@KnotworkGaming]

Bit late to the response here but it is worth recalling that the Emperor was trying to get rid of any form of superstition and mystical aspect to Humanity as, at the time, that was the most effective way to fight Chaos. All Faith was a potential conduit for Chaos and a way to allow the chaos gods to thrive. The Emperor was so successful with this that you had the Unification, Post Unification and over two centuries of Great Crusade with calm predictable warp and essentially zero chaos incursions. Erebus would change this. Also, also, the Emperor's stance isn't just 'I believe thus I am right' - he has been testing, studying and retesting the methods of taking humanity onwards into a manifest destiny (and beating chaos into the bargain) for tjousands of years. He has been Warlords, Heroes, Gods, Kings and more for millenia - Olm Pearson met him during their shared time on the Argo after all, and the Imperium was the result of the Eon spanning planning that was done.

[@oldeskul]

I love how the Emperor would say something along the lines of, "Blah-blah-blah, religion is bad, look at all of the evil it causes.", then the priest would respond, "It wasn't religion that did those bad things it was people using religion as a justification to do bad things. People with the intent to do bad things will use whatever is at hand to justify their doing bad things." I love how he called out the Emperor and said exactly what the state of the Galaxy would be. Then I loved how when given the opportunity to join the Emperor, he told him no, then walked into the burning church to self immolate, after all we know that Big E doesn't respond well to being told no.

[@alchemicpink2392]

1:28:30 "Your religion is cringe. Anyway, HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT EUGENICS" This is why Horus heresy'd you, Emps. This is why Horus heresy'd you. Also leaving an edit because someone will try to be a smart alec about this: It's not his point in that scene but Emps is absolutely a eugenicist, hence why he's bad.

[@Majorfuckinghero]

Well, it only took 3 months. But let me try and play devils advocate here then, since nobody else took the bait. Gene manipulation is not the same as eugenics. His goal was never to change mankind as a whole into something better by forcefully interbreeding them and keeping others from doing the same. He specifically created super soldiers for the express purpose of reaching his goals, namely defeating Chaos(The greatest threat to humanity), and staving off any xenos threat in the meantime. As far as I am aware, he never made any laws or rules against people with disabilities breeding. Inevitably, all Astartes, and even the Primarchs would meet the same end as the Thunder Warriors when all was said and done. When Humanity had reached it's zenith, and Chaos wasn't a threat no more, he would have discarded them as the mere tools he originally saw them as. That was Horus' realisation. Ultimately, Horus' reason to turn on Emps was a fear of the unknown and going down the same path as many other creations of big E. Horus didn't have a big change of heart out of love for his fellow man, but for selfish(understandably so) reasons and a fear of being discarded.

[@tariqshort4025]

38:03 He wants humanity to have faith in science but science is cold and impersonal.

[@HistoritorJimaldus]

Well, confidence not faith

[@tariqshort4025]

@@HistoritorJimaldus you right.

[@Lechuga1815]

1:12:00, To be fair, since "Old Night" essentially more or less restarted human civilization. It can be assumed that the new societies weren't as progressive as their age of technology equivalents. These people were Techno-barbarian-cavemen just generations before.

[@lucy_Bad_Bunny]

most of the questions asked would be answered if they just kept watching the damn video.

[@AlexBermann]

There actually is a reason why the museum solution doesnt work for the emperor. The Emperor wants to eradicate faith. This is why je genuinely wants to understand why this priest is believing - so he can take it away from everyone. In this case, the beauty of the art gives the priest a feeling of religious exaltation.

[@hannahhannbella]

1:55:11 I’m religious so I thought my two cents might come in here. I lost my granddad about a month ago. I am sad he passed but relived that he’s not suffering anymore. He was in hospice for a month. So I was crying and laughing the whole time. Talking with my family about “do you remembers” and blue crabs. Of loadmaters and NRA dinners. All the things my grandad loved. The part of religion I like is that we will see everyone we love again. It’s not a goodbye but a see you later.

[@HephaestesVulcan]

Idk if you guys were joking around or just aren't aware, but the Emperor of Mankind is a supremely powerful psyker as well as a clairvoyant. He sees the future. So when he told Uriah that he "knew what narrow path humanity had to follow"... He KNEW.

[@aldrinmilespartosa1578]

Preist: dude, you're practically doing the same. What is different if you're the one leading it? Big E: Nah Id Win Priest: That's not a valid answer! Big E: time to burn now.

[@andreanecchi5930]

why can't this video be seen among the videos in the channel?

[@tariqshort4025]

no idea. maybe copyright.

[@feralprocessor9853]

Right off the bat, a Heretic astartes jamming with a drumbset.

[@Dreamerwild]

The tendency to get zealously invested in an idealogy is not unique to religion

[@alchemicpink2392]

The thing about the Emperor of Mankind is that he is the most extreme version of a well-intentioned evil immortal. He doesn't fathom that the people in the Now all have the same intrinsic value as the individuals of a super-juiced species he wants humanity to become in the future. He also doesn't fathom that he could be wrong. Both are just not part of his calculus in terms of his "how to advance humanity" agenda, but "at any cost" very much is. Also, part of his argument for what he has done and will do prior to and during the Heresy always is "If I hadn't stepped in humanity would be over" and I don't buy it. You can be a how-so-ever-potent psyker, the future is not a stone tablet written in advance, which is made clear with Sanguinius, Conrad Kurze and Alpharius Omegon, all either themselves psykers of the Prophet with Future Visions variety or in A-O's case with access to a powerful one (afaik) who collectively demonstrate that to struggle against those visions or to make certain they happen is an uninformed choice- Something the Emperor doesn't actually seem to grasp because his visions are a lot more thorough.

[@Wolfsurfs]

Respect for my N’wah dagoth ur for dagoth wave

[@98765zach]

I know “Apocalypsos/is” seems like an incredibly on the nose name for the emperor of man, father of a great many Final Days across the universe, to give himself, but it has alternate meanings than our contemporary understanding of it, referring to general visions of the future, not just the end of the world, it’s just that most famous apocalyptic visions ARE about the end of the world It’s both accurate enough and pretentious enough while also having another meaning he hasn’t explained to fit the big redditor in chief

[@fishpop]

It's a good adaptation but the echo dipping in and out is a bit odd. Also i thought Big E gave his name as Revelation, not Apocalypsis. Granted my knowledge comes from the TTS podcast where Uriah was revealed as a Choas worshipper. EDIT: 20:00 Ah, the adaptation changed it for whatever reason.

[@lutheidiotfromhell5295]

the emperor is an ork in who believes he's the emperor of human kind

[@PanzerLord]

I’m curious: what do you think would happen if someone debated Lorgar the same way ‘Revelation’ debated Uriah (like, pre-Monarchia)?

[@kageshira]

Is wasnt the Spanish Inquisition. it was a massacre that happened in Breziers (France) after a siege "there are no female characters" Ignoring female factions is so cannon that even GW ignores SoS and expands on Custodes instead

[@armorclasshero2103]

He says "what I would have said would have been base" in this context he means crude or unworthy.

[@zenderthedragon]

Dagoth wave is the intro song

[@reylann2965]

I can see the emperor's point coming for an evangelical family. Religion is fine as long as it doesn't over step its bounds, such as being used to harm others.

[@abnegazher]

To be a true atheist is to have FAITH that there is nothing out there, since there is no real proof that something exists or not. You still need to have FAITH. Also there is a difference between being an atheist and having no religion.

[@syrusalder7795]

I thought I'd clicked on the wrong thing when I started and heard Dagoth Synthwave XD

[@literalsarcasm1830]

Is it just me, or does Big E have a kink for wise old wizards? 🤔

[@DarkKnight6six6]

Not to defend the Emperor's approach here, but I think his logic for approaching Uriah like he does without asking if he consents to this debate is probably something along the lines of "Well, a priest is supposed to spread his faith, he must know he's meant to defend it too, right?" Or something like that. Still shitty, but an understandable misconception.

[@Lordgunicorn]

Who needs mental health when you have warhammer?

[@Jdemonify]

like someone else said. again the emperor feared that if the religion and faith stays humans will manifest warp gods since there are billions.

[@crackedscreen2685]

2:20:00 The Emperor loves Humanity but not Humans is how I always saw it

[@dicerson9976]

The church of the fulgur lapis (iirc in the book it was named more directly as like lightning stone or something dumb like that, but the name was changed for the adaptation to- like many changes- much it less dumb and childish) is very much a direct christian allegory. This entire story is very much just Big E bullying a less knowledgeable individual into philosophical submission. Of course he has the faint chance of discovering something "new", but ultimately does not expect Uriah to provide any kind of argument or idea he has not already heard- and every time Uriah does present such an argument, he deconstructs it in order to force Uriah to something else. Until Uriah either hits upon something new, or has nothing left and has no choice but to "convert". In a way, its just a test. A way to Big E to "confirm" his own beliefs by making sure there really isn't any actually unbeatable argument for religion, thus justifying his quest to vanquish it once and for all. Afterall, if it provides nothing and causes problems, it should be gotten rid of (though he blatantly ignores the fact that religion does provide something, as it arises inevitably as a way to satisfy curiosity in questions that are unanswerable). Fundamentally, this short story is a *very* surface level summary of a variety of philosophical arguments concerning the "truth" of religion. With the very clear intent being to be an example of how Big E "proves" that non-religious secularism is the right way; but only as an ironic foil to the state of "modern" 40k being about as mega-religious as it gets. Showing ultimately that Big E was fundamentally "hypocritical" (although to be frank I disagree- I'd say he was more grossly incompetent by intentional design. An actual god-like being with millenia of knowledge and experience would have easily predicted so many things that Big E missed). The most direct things people point to when calling him hypocritical is his overtly, and dumbly, religious naming schemes. In the book, of course, he dubbed himself Revelation. He called his great galactic campaign's "Crusades". He used fucking *latin* as the base language for High Gothic and thus gave the name of *literally everything* some kind of religious overtone, including his Astartes (*literally* "Angels"). Openly practicing magical powers while simultaneously claiming that he definitely totally isn't a God and that Gods and demons and the supernatural don't exist when literally EVERYONE knows about The Warp and psykers to some degree, while offering no actual explanation or secular reasoning whatsoever, demanding that people simply BELIEVE HIM when he says that its the truth or die. Instead of, you know, coming up with the very much sensical and secular justifications for the seemingly supernatural phenomenon to use as an explanation to satisfy innate human curiosity he left unfulfilled (which is what drove them to religion anyways, especially since his stupid deal with the Adeptus Mechanicus damned near forbade scientific pursuit in general). The first topic the two discussed, which Ava & Kari largely spoke over, was a very classic argument which sought to "prove" religion/the divine via Art. IE - without a divine being to spark ingenuity/inspiration/creativity, truly beautiful art could not exist. But Apocalypsis (The Emperor), refuted this, saying that to claim such is to insult every artist- to claim, essentially, that all humanity is nought but talentless amatuers who *depend* upon a higher power (or at least "faith" in one) in order to be creative; and provided an example by way of the Mariana's canyon. Which is an allegory funnily enough for Mt. Rushmore if I am correct, claiming that it was built thousands of years prior by a godless people and yet in modern times was hailed as a work of astonishing art. The second topic they discuss is an argument against religion, pointing to faith as a fundamental catalyst for violence and a very easy way for malicious and hateful people to safely indulge in their evil desires with no repercussions by simply labeling things as heretical or blasphemous as justification- relying on the fact that religion cannot be questioned to get away with it. Fairly straightforward, though Uriah fails to proffer the counterargument that typically comes with it- instead opting to change subjects by feigning offense. The third topic, more obviously, is arguments about the fundamental essence of "holiness". About what it is that makes things holy to begin with, which Big E effectively deconstructs and shows that there isn't anything really. That holiness is a fabrication created as a response to the seemingly inexplicable (which is typically just a false experience created by human error or sensory illusion, or simply the result of sheer random chance), or as a way for decetiful individuals to gain power. They transition from there to argument from personal experience. That those who have true faith have all personally experienced it, and that those who haven't simply "wouldn't understand". They briefly pause that particular argument to cover more background worldbuilding involving the revelation of the Emperor's ultimate goal: See all of humanity raised to his level. So that none would ever foolishly believe in religion again- afterall, who would believe in a higher power when everyone is a god? They then return to a tangent to the second topic, the idea that the tenets of a "holy book" are a way to guide and teach good morals- which of course goes right back to how religious conflict between religions can cause such incredible suffering and strife despite the religions in question supposedly being ones of "peace" (including several foreshadowing referneces to 40k, showing just how Big E's own secular beliefs are just as prone to conflict generation as religious ones are). Of course Big E points to just how inherently false holy books are because of how often they are rewritten/translated etc. by ultimately fallible people. They then finally return to Uriah's claim to personal experience, which of course involves all the usual inarguable phrases like "I saw what I saw". Which leads them to finally going into Uriah's own backstory. Preceded, of course, by a largely obnoxious "wine taster" tangent, in a way metaphorically showing just how utterly full of shit Uriah is given just how utterly full of shit wine "connosieurs" are as has been proven time and time again via double blind experiments. Any perceived differences between many varieties of wine are all fabrications locked in by the brain at some point or another, associated only with a name, brand, or particular varietal which activates them and causes their perception to happen. Not to say that Big E isn't just as crocked, afterall he too is a "wine mom". It continues with a more extensive list of the "sins" of religion, and of course the revelation that Uriah's personal experience with god was literally just Big E himself standing there and, in his typical hypocritical fashion, speaking like he is a God/angel guy despite trying to push secular beliefs. Uriah proffers the typical counterargument that religion is just as capable of teaching people moral good, if not moreso. Which Big E counters by saying that this is nothing unique to religion. They then return to the detailed components of the Holy Book discussion, involving how much of a books moral value is merely interpreted and not truly written- with the literal words often being strangely odd, or even downright cruel (which leads to mishaps and misunderstandings). Big E then goes into another topic, which deals with the comparisons between modern christian religions and old pagan ones. Claiming that both are/were equally used as tools of evil. Which Uriah counters with another typical argument, that evil people will be evil even without the use of religious pretext. Followed of course by yet more examples, intending to push that religion is a catalyst that worsens or enables evil rather than the thing which starts it. IE- evil people will be evil regardless, but religious evil people are far worse and are more enabled to be evil than secular evil people are by listing pointless atrocities that "couldn't" happen without religious pretext to support them. Every single example, for the record, is actually based on true events/historical recountings, coated in 40k coats of paints (specifically the catholic crusades and spanish inquisitions). Of course, in 40k, the Emperor is meant to be a living example that such atrocities can in fact be commited in secularism just as easily (as exemplified by Uriah's own story of Gadware, and in the irl by the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany and of course China/North Korea). Big E finally presents one last argument against religion (a more modern one, if I remember rightly), that religions often sustain long-term or ancestral grudges that would otherwise naturally vanish with time (which is, in the IRL, countered by modern examples of people being grudge-holding pricks across generations anyways- though Uriah never proffers this counterargument as it would require a long-term historical knowledge he simply does not have). It finally ends with speculation about what religion's "value"/"power" as a tool of comfort, which Big E counters with a utilitarian argument which isn't so directly related. Thus falling into the modern holdups in the argument, which is why the story more or less stops here and dips back into character specific stuff involving the literal Revelation that Uriah has which is why Big E was named Revelation in the book, for the twist at the end.

[@Satori227]

Amazing work bro. This is a great breakdown of every thought i had and didn't have watching this.

[@SilverCrow0101]

37:20 religion can't be a benefit for humanity in the warhammer universe, mainly because we've already seen it with the Imperium of Man. There's one Aeldari who even pointed it out to Guilliman, that maybe the emperor is becoming a Chaos god from faith alone, that maybe it is time for Humanity's turn to birth another Chaos god just like the Aeldari before them.

[@WilliamMoses355]

Much has been made about the blatant symbolism in the name Apocalypsis/Revelation. In the Bible, Uriah was killed unjustly by King David; David was one of Israel's greatest kings and overall an awesome guy. But 3 or 4 times (including this one) he really dropped the ball. I wonder if there is a comment intended about the Emperor's actions; the point would be stronger if "Olethaire" was also some literary character killed in similar circumstances.

[@SpiritOfSpite]

Aside from the whole accidentally summoning demons thing and using religion to justify atrocities and bad habits the main reason the Emperor had for hating religion was that those who believe In higher powers will just sit around and stagnate hoping and praying their situation will change when they could get off their lazy asses and actually try to do something about It. Take the Mechanicus for example, they've got some of the brightest minds in the Imperium that could be doing research and development to Invent/reinvent all sorts of useful technology that would greatly benefit humanity, but they don't because their religion tells them that invention is a sin and that they can only use and replicate old technology they find the blueprints for, because of this they commit horrendous acts like the creation of servitors and other such human brain based technology when they could extremely easily just recreate computers. At the time the Emperor thought that eventually the Empirium would simply outgrow the need for the Mechanicus but then the heresy happened after which the Emperium not only adopted the Mechanicus's anti-invention beliefs but also became absolutely dependent on them.

[@waxitron9181]

What is the name of the song in the opening, it's been stuck in my head for weeks.

[@NUMBSKULLS]

DAGOTHWAVE by young scrolls

[@Scowleasy]

The crux of the emeperor’s arguments hinges that religion is what is causing these atrocities, and eliminating it would prevent them in the future. Both of those ideas are inherently flawed, as neither addresses the vileness present inside humanity, only the symptoms of it.

[@tariqshort4025]

The Emperor truly wanted the best for humanity but ironically he wasn't a God he wasn't all knowing or all seeing and he had human flaws like arrogance and overconfidence. So he failed and created a future of endless war.

[@Scowleasy]

@@tariqshort4025 lol what? No he didn’t. He wanted *his* idea of what was best. He led a genocidal campaign across the galaxy slaughtering anyone that didn’t bend the knee. Countless peaceful planets that could’ve been left alone were drowned in blood because he wouldn’t take no for an answer.

[@ronantheronin3521]

​@@tariqshort4025 Being a God doesn't mean you have to be perfect or benevolent (The greek gods prove that). The Emperor and the chaos Gods prove that.

[@fishpop]

I know this story is long but it would be nice if they paused it so as to not talk over it. I have this issue with my chatty brothers. EDIT: 20:00 Nevermind :P

[@uuamenator]

Why didn't you link the original in the description?

[@alejandrorivas4585]

Cuz the original got taken down by gw, only re-uploads remain

[@svon1]

Dagothwave LOL :D

[@SkullsOfTorment]

1:27:55 Look at his little hand!

[@silverdust4197]

Hey , its finally here . took a while but oh well .

[@lordwarryl5712]

Which came first? The Last Church or the Time Malcador became BBFs with Big E?

[@NUMBSKULLS]

Ava here! BBF with Big E happened before this, I’m pretty sure. Last Church is pretty late into the unification wars last I checked.

[@YOGI-kb9tg]

​@@NUMBSKULLSit's the end of the unification wars and the start of the great crusade .

[@lordwarryl5712]

Malcador #1

[@gothicshark]

"base" has literally flipped to the opposite meaning in the last 5 years. If I told someone a thing was base in 2019 they would have been insulted.

[@danmoar94]

Does Kari understand the concept of an "inside thought"?

[@NUMBSKULLS]

We both have ADHD. So no.

[@jumbledump]

The Emperor is justified in having this discussion. If you represent on a viewpoint at an official level, then to not be open to hearing other's opinions would be hypocritical. However, Big E approaching under false pretense does not allow for the priest to properly rebuttal against the Emperor's views, making Big E the hypocrite... He's also a douchenozzle.

[@grimreapergames]

The emperorer is neither good or bad he, like every pre 40k story thing, is a poorly written plot device to back fill a story fully. Everything is in furtherance of getting to a place we already know but only adding to how we go there never really taking time to flesh out the character on the way. He will be on the throne as a "corpse", just as Anikin will be vader, everything is written knowing that with little to no sign to write anything as if the setting doesn't know that.