Restoring Junk Xbox One S - Console Restoration

[@ricahrdb]

I still own an Xbox One S and I still love it. Unbelievable that someone made such a mess of one.

[@AcetoneDragon]

I have seen and fixed worse 😂

[@firebert123]

it blows my mind how dirty it had gotten in such a short timeframe. I have a PS1 from 97 that still looks like it's only a year or so old! But I guess if the person that owned this Xbox took as good care as I do my consoles, it wouldnt be broken either.

[@benn454]

Most kids are very hard on electronics.

[@SmarZ20]

My Xbox One S has become a bit slow and laggy, but I still manage to play it anyway 😅

[@TheSpec1234]

​@SmarZ20 if you ever have the chance to replace the internal hardrive with an ssd, that can make big difference, not to mention you can get a bigger one than it typically came with. Not saying that's for sure the reason, it's kinda cool how snapy it can make the ui though if you get the chance to, check out a quick vid on it.

[@PCEngineLives]

That disc drive revved like a damn chainsaw before he fixed it. Horrifying. Almost felt like poor Minecraft Steve was gonna be put through a wood chipper. 💀💀

[@SegNode]

It sounded like the gates of hell just opened up 😭

[@davidtran2683]

That sound was probably worse than nails on a chalkboard. I feel sorry that the machine had to go through that ordeal. Way to bring back some life to the device !!

[@RufusKyura]

Should've been a Fifa disc, any version. Those certainly are disposable lol

[@kidawesome5577]

Sounded like it was eating the disc

[@Woobuggy848]

Sounds like a chainsaw, followed by a laughter like ditty.

[@schwarzekatz1151]

8 years passed since it is released... When others called XBOX360 and PS3 as "retro consoles", I suddenly realized I am already not young... Like these consoles.

[@outerfroggy1]

I had the NES the year it released. Imagine how I feel lol

[@dannyboyd6747]

I have my original genesis and atari though the atari is non functional at present

[@schwarzekatz1151]

@@dannyboyd6747 My first game console is a famiclone made by SUBOR (小霸王), about '93 or '94. In these years, even a famiclone can also drain half of my dad's monthly salary. that's a expensive toy for me and other Chinese kids at that time. I lost it when I moved my home to another city, what a pity. The last console my dad bought for me is a PS2, SCPH-10000 Japanese version, a parallel imports. My old man passed away 7 years ago, but that PS2 still reminds me of him.

[@FlamingDragon_]

Time flies...

[@yashasvirallabandi9070]

I mean, I don't think people are calling the 7th gen consoles 'retro' yet, I've only seen people call the PS2 retro in the last couple of years.

[@Lorraine202]

0:11 This is a particularly unsettling mystery goo because it looks like the console was submerged in it, but I cannot fathom what “it” is

[@Blue84Stang]

Plastidip............... Someone wanted the black one, apparently...

[@Wxgwomp]

might’ve been stickerbombed at some point

[@Dctctx]

The venom symbiote

[@MITSI1991]

Ive restored and cleaned many consoles such as this xboxone s. Its soo satisfying when you get it all put back together and it looks and runs like new. One of the reasons why I enjoy doing it so much

[@msthecommentator2863]

3:53 Ah, yes, my favorite Halo character, MasterChef Jokes aside, this was a great video 😄

[@TengleBerryLetsPlay]

gordon ramsay would be proud lmfao xD

[@Joeysmith_256]

I still can't believe this is 8 years old 💀

[@paranaenselol]

I cant believe my 360 slim is a decade old

[@HassanS-fc6ix]

I can’t believe my Xbox one is a decade old

[@Mario_kart_pro2011.n]

This Xbox was owned my a spoild kid

[@jacobbelfegor8761]

true that is insane :D

[@dragonstalker4948]

cant believe my ps3 is almost 18 years old

[@corvetaumbr2410]

Man, i remember when this console was brand new and all the hype around it. Crazy to believe it's 8 years old and can be already found in a state like this. We're getting old bois!

[@neonity4294]

My GB from 1990 is somewhere stored in a crate and I also own a DS from 06. I feel like one of those mummies the british would steal for their museums.

[@ionfalcom1]

Old folks homes in the 2040's are going to just be Giant LAN party's lol

[@numberyellow]

The way you treat your stuff says a lot about you. My 360 is still in pretty much mint condition....so are all my other consoles, and electronic devices, and most of the other stuff i own....because i take care of it. The stuff costs money, and i ain't never had a lot of money, so i tend to take good care of my things, because i ain't got the money to replace them. Hell, even when i buy used stuff, i completely take it apart, clean it, fix anything that's busted, and by the time i'm done, it's practically new. It really is just a matter of valuing what you own.

[@touffqc2306]

I remember the launch of the first Xbox console 😢

[@AnekoF90]

The craziest part is that they are still releasing games to this console.

[@millerraycell]

18:13 nice transition

[@Petersilie161]

this

[@sedrickbowser3588]

I literally was going to say the same thing, same time stamp, verbatim lol

[@maluslupine5412]

I also came here to appreciate this

[@msthecommentator2863]

Seriously, one of the best transitions I've ever seen ❤

[@red_so_deep]

Watched the transition like 20 times before thinking "I wonder if there is anyone out there as psychotic as me that would notice this crazy stylish, yet subtle transition." KZbin did not disappoint 18:13, such a freaking rad transition. Best ever.

[@oshavy]

Your content inspired me to try my hand at restoration. I just finished my first Gameboy. Thank you.

[@MrRuckusRCrc]

Great video, very relaxing. I used to use canned air and then an air compressor for my PC/Electronics cleaning. I eventually switched to our vacuum with a brush attachment. Sucking up all the dust and dirt is much less of a mess than blowing it around. To me it also works better with less effort. Only downside is cleaning my keyboard I sucked a key up once, and had to retrieve it from the collection chamber (chamber was cleaned out before I started, so not a big deal). But still prefer it to blowing all the dirt around. Been building PC's and tinkering with electronics for 30 years. No ill effected yet using a vacuum.

[@fty-ys4ni]

Mine is still sitting here on my entertainment system good as new. There hasn’t been enough incentive for me to buy a SeriesX at all. Especially considering this console is actively developed for still. Backwards compatibility has been huge for me too because I’ve been playing tons of games that my family was either too poor to afford when I was a kid or I just never got around to playing. Theres enough games to last a grown man a lifetime.

[@DerpSherman]

As the owner of a Xbox One S since brand new (bought in 2017), seeing one this badly is painful,but then again,i remember that there is people that simply don't take care of stuff and don't value it,no matter what it is (this applies to cars, consoles,phones,bikes,heck, even planes!).

[@Lgwasherfan5623]

I still have mine in very good condition and its been out of the box since 2017 I think and it's still happy

[@solidsnakesimulation666]

It's BOUGHT* not brought.

[@buffystar3]

Boeing moment

[@DerpSherman]

@@solidsnakesimulation666 Fixed, thanks.

[@refurbishedaudio4090]

It was probably belonged to a kid.

[@talos86]

Those rubber rollers are tend to become gooey over time. Its a common problem with the slot-in drives. If the roller becomes sticky, then you have to replace it. Cleaning with IPA helps, but you only delay the inevitable. The same with the Sony DualShock controllers analog sticks. The other thing is, that never ever let the fan spin if you blow in air with the compressor. You can easily damage the bearing, since the fan can spin up much faster, than its designed.

[@Poison_Raccoon]

Could be a lower blowing air compressor

[@Poison_Raccoon]

Also what does controllers have to do with anything

[@caellumrevolta2839]

He's saying the material on both things are the same and suffer from the same problem.

[@randomscience4k]

@@Poison_Raccoon Yeah that appears to be the case. The pressure seems to be very low, as the dust particles caught only get removed gently and the fan spin is not too aggressive.

[@Dunxco]

Incredible work, as always. These videos are always extremely relaxing to watch. It'll haunt me what the black stuff was - red wine? Grape soda? Some things mankind is not meant to know.

[@mr_mhg91]

Teenage gamer gunk

[@Facetiously.Esoteric]

I've watched for years and have never seen him do such a bad job. Left everything so dirty.

[@JaredLS10]

@@Facetiously.Esoteric probably didn't feel like taking more time getting all that gunk out of the holes.

[@Facetiously.Esoteric]

@@JaredLS10 Literally his job. Lol

[@elone3997]

@@Facetiously.Esoteric He's probably (understandably) tired of cleaning up other peoples gunk. As much as I love seeing these filthy machines brought back to life, it's sad to see how badly some people take care of things!

[@MatInsaneRC84]

You got extremely lucky to get one with a bad belt for the disc drive. Would love to see you restore one with a brand new disc drive. Love your videos. Keep up on the good work

[@nitricoxide1]

I love it when KZbinrs like this guy doesn't include music in their videos. I can just put whatever music in the background and make things more entertaining.

[@kindandrosie]

thank you for your videos. I had the confidence and patience to repair my PlayStation controller because of you. keep up the great work 😊

[@Junden-w1u]

0:39 that's cruel out of all games it just had to be Minecraft

[@Agent008-r8r]

minecrafts overated needs better animations better mobs ect cooler weapons

[@Ace_The_Ghost]

Minecraft sucks anyways

[@Junden-w1u]

@@Ace_The_Ghost ok fortnite kid💀

[@bubgamingandvlogs3870]

minecraft aint meant to have those​@@Agent008-r8r

[@Hamb0-r3aL]

@@Ace_The_Ghost Young buck don’t know the ropes.

[@samfrito]

Loved watching. Incredible editing and close-up work. I almost feel like I could bist open a blu-ray drive and go ham. Thanks.

[@galyxy8]

i kind of think the black “goo” is acrylic paint, maybe the kid or whoever owned it tried to paint it black, regretted it, and tried and failed to remove it fully, leaving dried acrylic paint in the holes. not 100% sure, but thats what it looks like

[@ruipepe8041]

As always, another amazing restoration :D Great job Odd. Love your videos :)

[@Sonicgott]

Best kind of videos to watch right before bed. So relaxing. ❤

[@rbwstudio36]

I have Series S now but I missed the days with One S console. That was my first Xbox and I really loved it. Hard to believe that someone could make such a mess and you bro did a miracle with it.

[@Someone_in_the_comments]

What always amazes me is how they manage to separate all those plugs so easily. They never come apart that easily for me, it always feels like I'm going to pull the wire right out of the plug.

[@NandinN-y8r]

That purple colour on the button made me think of a nail polish, so I was thinking that maybe the black goo is also a really dried up nail polish and therefore can be removed with acetone nail polish remover. Always a pleasure watching your videos :).

[@Crimpson2003]

I was thinking that maybe it was some kind of paint and maybe the person was trying to paint it black or something and realized it wasn't a good idea midway through it.

[@craisins95]

@@Crimpson2003 I was thinking the same thing because dried acrylic paint is very similar.

[@numberyellow]

The problem with acetone is that it will damage the plastic, by way of marring, and in some cases (depending on the plastic) even melt it. It pays to know what chemicals you can use to clean any given material. on that clear plastic, nail polish remover would probably have been ok, but it would have marred (frosted) the surface, so he would have had to polish it, to get it shiny again...and unless you're experienced, it is VERY easy to screw that up, and destroy the piece. For the rest of the casing, Acetone would have been a BAD idea. he could have still gotten all of that crud off there with either a little more scrubbing, or something like 90% IPA, or either WD40, or petroleum jelly (left to sit for a bit, like that gel-type paint stripper).

[@sentient_trash_can]

I think the black residue was either nail polish or acrylic paint. Both seem like something a (presumed) kid would have access to and think to use to color their xbox

[@apjithin]

Ok. Now it's getting to a point where the gadgets you restore are actually old but still we still think they've been released last summer.. 😢😅

[@Bhrakie]

I'm always so glad to see videogames consoles/controllers/devices getting a fresh start, I just can't wait to watch the machine work again, I'm so happy for it c:

[@SimonUdd]

My favorite restoration channel does it again, real shame about the holes though which makes me want a One X even more

[@salsa2439]

When you blew all the dust off the heat sink and fan, I wanted to sneeze

[@frozenninja4030]

🤣I held my breath. That was nasty!

[@zell6108]

Yeah i held my breath and squinted like holy crap someones gonna get sick from that lol

[@calebhenry3601]

I started off with a One S when I finally had my first job to buy myself a console. Took good care of it, got to trade that in for a One X, and then that one in turn for my current Series X. Off all three designs, One S is kind of at the top for me for how clean and symmetrical it is. Glad you got this one back to how it's supposed to be. Perhaps you should consider a follow-up video where you upgrade it with an internal SSD?

[@Local_gremlin2009]

My first was the xbox360 slim in black. It’s good to see the quality hasn’t gone down. It was my first and will always be my favourite. I like to keep mine in good condition aswell. I want to clean it at least once a year because it tends to get quite dusty where it is at the moment ( I’m planning on having a game room and making dust covers in the future that way it’s easier). If you take care of a console it can last decades. Even more time for you to have fun with it 👍🏻

[@samanthadean1083]

I feel old just thinking of when this came out… Fantastic job from you and the Ducktor!!! ❤️❤️❤️👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

[@geetmaniac7715]

Is watchin these videos relaxing to anybody else?

I used to work in console repairs and the main thing that would cause Xbox 360 drive failures were the elastic bands... You'd think Microsoft would've learnt to not use them in future gens, lmao

[@Mecks089]

I wish I had your knowledge of restoring these things so precisely.

[@laurosf]

more than knowledge, patience

[@SkynetMotion]

There is a brand of stain remover called Amodex that you might find useful, it comes in a liquid or in a wipe form that’s meant to be used on hard surfaces like plastic or wood, it’s actually what Sharpie recommends is used to remove their ink. You might be able to make use of it in future projects.

[@izakjoubert6936]

Remember kids, don't use compressed air on a fan without holding the fins in place. Over-spinning the fan puts unnecessary strain on it.

[@markrenz659]

Came to say the same! Don't burn your fans out

[@Frostgnaw]

Shit, I spray my PC fans to get the dust off from time to time. I really hope I'm not damaging them.

[@ProBassPlayer69]

it also creates small amounts of voltage that might be re-routed back to the mother board and might damage some components

[@NineSeven8]

@@ProBassPlayer69 And then they invented diodes lol

[@rc-daily]

There's no load so harm is being done....

[@uffagiuli]

i'm studying right now therefore i can't watch this yet, but i just wanted to say that i'm really glad you uploaded

[@Local_gremlin2009]

I love watching your videos but boy do they make me want to take things apart.

[@KhanIlkara]

Seeing that fan spin makes me wince but at the same time I'm gonna point out that just looking at it told me it's about to go out. Later confirmed by the noise it makes while the unit is running (albeit better than it was).

[@Jenndar]

I was dying for him to replace that fan T_T

[@valence_drive]

18:12 Nice transition there. Fan still looked quite dusty, though. You sure there wasn't more you could do?

[@emersonmartinez3401]

A super Fallout fan greets you, and also a fan of your restorations. From Honduras, grettings.

[@FrankMulder-xc4hm]

@3:55 I think you mean Masterchief instead of Masterchef 😅

[@BuriedFlame]

_"That's great. But who are the Chefs?"_

[@mark0183]

Captain keyes this is raw!!!!! *Punches his face while in gravemind form

[@MrBrandomonium]

@@BuriedFlamethat’s one heck of a throwback. One of the greatest Snickers commercials ever

[@haloslayer255]

​@BuriedFlame is chef Ramsey one of them?

[@jehad78]

Brilliant restoration. The fact that he tested it with Fallout 4 makes it even better. I still play it from time to time. It's a beautiful game.

[@Xelger]

I wonder if the product known as "Goo Gone" would have helped with cleaning those holes/pits better. It works wonders on adhesives from my experience, and it seems to harness the power of citrus to do so, hence why it has a citrus smell. I have also never seen it be unsafe on any kind of material other than maybe having the potential to stain absorbent ones.

[@DKarkarov]

Love that tiny Master Chef on the disc drive.

[@itsnotnotjonathan]

The disc drive sounded like a door from any horror movie. Damn. Also, the "budget friendly LED mod" is a nice touch. lol

[@fundude9938]

Dude I have a One S, it's the only Xbox I've ever owned and I still play games on it from time to time. Funny thing is it still seems new to me, so this is kinda crazy 😂

[@epictomat]

7:26 youtube when my parents walk in:

[@telemachus9350]

Ice cube tray for the fixings, etc. Genius. I shall be doing this from now on.

[@numberyellow]

I would have use a brush and IPA on the board...i also would have taken the fan apart, cleaned the blades with IPA (lots of residue on there), and serviced the motor (clean and lubricate). You also should have used a brush on the heatsink. There's a LOT of leftover residue on the fins, that will decrease it's ability to radiate. It's also worth noting that not all adhesives will dissolve in IPA, there are some adhesives i've found you can only remove with something like lighter fluid, or things like WD-40, petroleum jelly, or cooking oil (i've used them all). same goes for whatever that was on the power button (i'm guessing nail polish, or something similar) that's probably why you still had residue after washing. While Magic eraser WILL get rid of the residue, and stains, it will also absolutely destroy the finish on the casing. There's also still a lot of gunk in all the holes on the casing. You did a good job of restoring it to a functional condition....however, visually, it still doesn't look so hot.

[@KitDoctor]

I had to scroll a while to find someone else fixating on all the same stuff I was during this video

[@Bravo_Alpha]

I still use mine as well. Now I know how to open it and give a little TLC ❤, I can extend it's life.

[@BFDIFinalistsfan2763]

He uploaded! This time it's XBOX!

[@murrij]

0:27 The budget friendly led color mod was a big lol here. Thank you for that!

[@8bitboss929]

I can’t imagine the house that came from how does the system even get that dirty. Or do they not have filters for the air conditioner? Did they not vacuum? Do they use their Xbox as a food tray I don’t get it.

[@metro-c9p]

It was probably in a storage room. Mine gets super dusty since for the most part I never go in there (and most people I would assume)

[@KaineTheConq]

Its an insane coincidence that for years I wanted him to upload this restoration so I could do it to mine, and on the day this video came out is the day my new series X came in. Still I performed this surgery on my old one, and now its in better shape then its been in years. I gave it to my sister.

[@hawkfeather6802]

It looked like it came out of a dumpster in the beginning. Now it looks brand new! Great job!

[@FitoFont92]

Your videos are comforting 😊

[@snapdragon5565]

It’s the fact my that my boyfriend also has an Xbox one and it’s a double fact that after watching this I feel like I’ll be able to also take his Xbox apart and put it back together. This video is just casually a step by step

[@kevintedford2550]

That black stuff looks like melted plastic but I could totally be wrong. Great video, keep em coming and I'll keep watching them. :D

[@iAmMeYaSee]

Did this guy just say he doesn't mind destroying Minecraft? Edit: Didn't mean to start beef in the comments- mb y'all😭

[@TotalHooman]

It's not that good of a game, plus it's an outdated version

[@techspec2551]

It's the console version, so it might be bedrock.

[@WantBadtime]

@@techspec2551 That is the legacy version from YJ Studios. You can no longer buy the legacy version digitally anymore as Microsoft took it down and replaced it with the bedrock version.

[@puggywuggypugchamp]

Minecraft kind of sucks tho

[@WantBadtime]

no way my comment got deleted 💀

[@jv6miata]

I remember being so proud of my Xbox One S, it was the first console I ever bought with my own money at 16 when these first came out.

[@GalathNox]

There's always something special about the very first console you buy with your own money. Mine was the PS2.

[@ProbablyNotProbable]

I would have been way pickier about getting every little bit out of those holes but what's important is that it works now. Nice video and nice game choice with the Corvega action!

[@georgebowie609]

I agree. He usually uses ultraviolet light to clean it good. A little disappointed

[@Facetiously.Esoteric]

​@@georgebowie609More than a little. He left the boards and electronics dirty AF. This was a bad video.

[@rakeshpk9648]

Excellent !! love the duck.

[@TXnine7nine]

I remember when that console came out. There was a great divide in my friend's group over "XBox One or PS4". I ended up going for the PS4. Then when the next generation came out I got the PS5 and the XBOX Series X to cover both! 🤣

[@solidsnakesimulation666]

Spoiled much imbecile.

[@VanyaVoPlay]

OT, you have nice videos! They’re all so satisfying! ❤❤❤

[@BuriedFlame]

*actually laughs at the Minecraft disc part* Sounds like the machine's gone completely feral.

[@durzgg]

Man, i loved the tiny masterchef on the disc drive

[@natalieeuley1734]

It's amazing how much more this is put together like a computer instead of a game console than most of the other consoles found on the channel. Just goes to show how Microsoft is the owner of Xbox lol

[@kennynakawaki]

Another beautiful restoration as always! So satisfying to watch! 🙌🏻

[@RemmyMusic1]

even generations after us will notice the difference in build quality from the 1990's tech and everything after. so much cheaper plastic parts after 2000.

[@furrymessiah]

I honestly would have used a power washer on the plastics. That bizarre black residue is never going to 100% come out with just manual scrubbing.

[@SAMPLETEXT285]

Power washing would probably damage the plastic itself I'd just use plastic safe degreaser and a magic eraser

[@andrewbonifacio2914]

So great to see these consoles get a new life really cool

[@atomikku4227]

It never ceases to amaze me how some people will live in the most disgusting horrid lifestyles to make an 8 year old console look like this.

[@texasrattlesnake31637]

And another successful restoration bro!

[@pryme5837]

12:57 Don't do this. This can kill the bearings. Also you need more air pressure in general. Too much dirt is left for manual cleaning :-) Keep up the good work!

[@Q.7]

I was looking whether someone mentioned this. And also I'm not sure about this, but doesn't spinning the fan produce electricity?

[@AllTheMimsy]

You know it's gonna be a good one when mystery goo is involved.

[@complexpixel5297]

"slightly dusty" 😳

[@JeandreKoen-wi9hs]

Man I love your videos my dude. I listen to the noises sometimes as ASMR at night to fall asleep. I just saw that you spin the fan fast with the compressor. This can damage the components inside the fan as when power flows through it it spins "without strain" if I may call it that. But I recall love the vidoes, its very relaxing and satisfying to watch!

[@niyajun5952]

thermal paste everywhere but on the chip xD

[@axolotl-lover]

Nice a new video these are always so satisfying

[@TobiasNichols-l8t]

That is dirty

[@GamerHomegirl]

Watching a video like this will never get old. 🙌🏾

[@hemankbhardwaj3556]

Hello julian! Been a big fan for almost 5 years. I couldn’t help but notice that this restoration was not good in comparison to your other videos, like you were just forcing yourself to do this coz the restoration ain’t great. The fan was still dirty, outer shell still had some gooey stuff in the holes and the shell either needed to be replaced or repainted. There were deep scratches on the bottom part, also you didn’t put any sticker at the bottom or the back. I hope this reaches you please go back to the old ways 😔.

[@thiccramen]

agreed, i love this channel but this video was disappointing in comparison to his usual meticulous work! i hope the next one is back up to his usual standards

[@user-gj1lb6xp3t]

thanks for rescuing this neglected xbox 🙏

[@vinceianni4026]

Good Job ODD beautifully restored well done

[@islerps]

It's an inception. I'm watching you on my Xbox one S identical to the one you're recovering. 😂

[@coolguy163]

yay new odd tinkering vid!!!

[@Tallion_of_Gondor]

I have this and I still use it daily, this is gonna be really useful for me for maintenance Ty

[@darkhaq]

Yeah...As someone who used to be around it a lot and has had to clean it off of electronics and other surfaces myself....There is a solid (80%+) chance that "goo" is resin. As in the lovely after effect of large quantities of leafy green being smoked in the immediate vicinity of the Xbox. I could be wrong, but I don't think so. I'd be curious to know what that Xbox smelled like...lol

[@nothpl121]

finaly new video!!! Miłego oglądania 💗(it means enjoy watching in polish) i also own xbox one but x not s

[@BlackPanthera]

Thank you for the new video on the channel! I watched it with pleasure =)

[@jeyemangobravo]

HELL YEAH THE DUCKTOR IS BACK

[@oregonvaultgirlbrandy8250]

Excellent game choice at the end 😎

[@AlexIsModded]

With the marker on the power button and the black goop on the top cover, this had to be used by a kid who just decided one day to turn their xbox into an art project.

[@animalsaver2127]

Your vids always so satisfying and they put Me to sleep so ty

[@dropgeo]

enjoyed the gaming content at the end

[@ONEFATE9]

Welcome back!

[@imooumoo4]

>Lets test it with a game I dont mind destroying That was comedy gold

[@0_chi_hiro]

my theory is the mystery substance could be some type of paint, most likely acrylic. The shots of cleaning out the holes struck me because it looked strikingly similar to when I clean off my palettes. perhaps the previous owner tried to DIY customise it and wasn’t able to clean it properly, from my experience the texture, patterns and distribution match those I would expect of paint and the explanation makes sense (the idea of trying to spruce up an old console that you still might use but not value too highly as a project, perhaps during lockdown, seems believable to me)