Luigi wins against a team of level nine CPUs by doing absolutely nothing

[@hedgehoggy147]

Behold Melee's amazing AI

[@m00rtin4]

I mean a lvl 9 ganondorf is not to be messed with.

[@beepmoo8771]

Computer play- computer play- GAME!

[@thekiss2083]

Aaaaand THIS is the stage we decide to keep for Smash 3DS.

[@OmegaTyrant]

It's an alright if hazardous stage (though a single DK stage that's a past stage is pretty appalling in itself). If we're going to talk questionable past stage choices. I'm baffled that they chose to keep the bland, ugly, and flatout terrible not fun for casual play nor has any competitive potential Bridge of Eldin over the unique, aesthetically appealing, fun for casual while not being completely hopeless for competitive play Pirate Ship

[@thekiss2083]

Omega Tyrant Agreed on the lack of DK stages. And it could be worse--they could have brought back Rumble Falls. "Bland" and "terrible" are opinions you're entitled to, but I'm going to contest "ugly". Bridge of Eldin was one of the best-looking stages in Brawl, and, speaking as a Zelda fan, had some of my favorite music tracks. Pirate Ship was always problematic for me and my friends. Like Halberd, the bombs shot at the stage have this weird lack of depth perception where it's very difficult to tell where they're going to hit. That and the catapult, and the insta-kill on the prow of the ship. Not to mention the layout is pretty similar to the early stages of Rainbow Cruise. I'm grateful they decided to keep (for the most part) stages with less deadly / more predictable hazards from earlier games. Sm4sh is a lot better about ridiculous stage hazards than Brawl was.

[@Ryusuta]

Omega Tyrant Me personally, I don't mind this stage being on the 3DS, but I'm incredibly sad that the two Smashville levels are only on the Wii U. The 3DS could use stages like those two. Ah well.

[@GalaxyRoyal]

TheKiss That stage from Melee was also in Brawl too.

[@GalaxyRoyal]

MasterCyconide Lol I'm dying! XD

[@OmegaTyrant]

Giant characters in Melee have the intelligence of a cereal box.

[@Quincunx_5]

Still a better love story than Twilight.

[@sbprakamranonymity4780]

The 3 Dislikes were from Fox, Donkey Kong and Falco

[@mach6893]

Falco: FOIYAH! (splash) WAAAH! Fox: FAIYAH! (splash) BUAAAH! DK: (kicks, spins, splash) BURP!

[@Carrity]

@@mach6893 nah brub that's brutal 😆😆

[@ernestwong7860]

Luigi: what was that all about 0_0

[@mach6893]

Falco: FOIYAH! (sploosh) WAAAK! Fox: FAIYAH! (sploosh) BUAAAH! DK: (kicks and misses, spins, splash) BURP!

[@Fr0st1989]

lmfao they are no match for luigi's apathy

[@richiem5112]

Cracked?

[@iposteverythung3720]

And he did it under 10 seconds? Remarkable.

[@MrYammygoochy]

Luigi's victory flop at the end was the icing on the cake :D

[@MegaQwertification]

All hail the magic conch.

[@ScoutSunset]

COMPUTER PLAYER DE-COMPUTER PLAYER-GAME!

[@Demonslay335]

I love how he is planking for his victory pose.

[@LaddyMakesThings]

melee? more like cpu death simulator

[@mach6893]

Falco: FAIYAH! (sploosh!) WAACK! Fox: FAIYAH! (sploosh!) BUAAAH! DK: (kicks, spins, sploosh!) BURP!

[@mach6893]

0:06 Falco: FOIYAH! (sploosh) WAAAH! Fox: FAIYAH! (sploosh) BUAAAH! DK: (kicks and misses, spins, sploosh) BURP!

[@peanutbuttercracker1]

COMPUTER PLAYER DE-COMPUTER PLAYER DE-GAME!!!

[@DowntownWithBrown]

Falco and Fox disliked this video (DK doesn't even know what KZbin is, he's too busy exploring his meme)

[@mach6893]

Nah. DK figured it out and disliked this video.

[@OmegaTyrant]

Mostly, they will actually approach with more than just walking up to you, they will utilise all their dodging maneuvers, utilise their entire moveset, and will make better use of their recoveries (there are no cpus this time that ignore basic recovery moves). That said, they are still full aggro, still underutilise/misuse recoveries (Ike, Snake, and the PK kids are especially bad), and have a bunch of other flaws. So you can still exploit them easily, but they can put up a far better fight.

[@sageoftruth]

Luigi's winning pose might as well have been a face fault after that victory.

[@YTTHEGAMINGGUY]

VS SD TEAM (self distruct)

[@mach6893]

Falco: FOIYAH! (sploosh!) WAAAK! Fox: FAIYAH! (sploosh!) BUAAAH! DK: (kicks and misses, spins, sploosh!) BURP!

[@GalaxyRoyal]

Fighting against a team of 2 or 3 level 9 computer players is a real Smash pain but Luigi managed to beat them by the power of doing...*Absolutely nothing*! :O "Ha, ha, ha I'm the best!" from the Mario Party series.

[@OmegaTyrant]

The AI is the same in each copy. The AI strat consists nearly entirely of this -> walk up to you, throw a couple of projectiles if they have it, and jab, with a dash grab instead occasionally. The AI doesn't have any improvement when on teams, they don't actively work together and each follow the aforementioned strat (except that since you may be in the air more often, they may use more aerials, so in that way, teams help them slightly).

[@CaptnMarioCH]

Lol watch fox in the beginning INSTANT DEATH

[@tomasponce4749]

he's crazy just like in "Something About Star Fox 64"

[@mach6893]

I did. Very funny. Watch Falco too! Falco: FOIYAH! (sploosh) WAAAK!

[@9sharkman]

They may not directly work together, but they do have a tendency to position themselves perfectly so when one throws out of a grab, the other is ready so smash them out of the air, and they can power shield like mad.

[@OmegaTyrant]

For example, with Ganon, I can just stand back and assault them with aerials, where 9 times out of 10, they'll land. Back in my very bad days, I would clear the Showdown and Classic/All Star on hard/very hard by using Kirby, jumping above them, and using Stone ad infinitum. And this horrid strat worked, as they would rarely jump up at me, just stand there below me, and would take the Stone more often than not.

[@OmegaTyrant]

Plus there's no excuse for cpu Luigi never using Super Jump Punch to recover, cpus not utilising a lot of their moves/capabilities, and the myriad of AI flaws such as them not recognising hostile pokemon and coming to a complete standstill if you stand in specific places on stages.

[@mr.skeltal8687]

Luigi's plank thing if hilarious

[@ΝίκοςΒεζδρεβάνης]

"You level nine CPUs won't beat me."

[@yourgenericdebainuser7644]

This is what happens when you put Luigi against another team of 3 fighters.

[@OmegaTyrant]

Not really, the AI will primarily walk up to you and jab, with some projectiles and grabs thrown in, regardless of if you're standing there or actively fighting back.

[@LoftusWatching]

for some reason that comparison really made me laugh, brilliant.

[@OmegaTyrant]

"You can't plan for everything." You can plan for an AI to actually use its basic options. Again, giving Luigi the ability to use Super Jump Punch to recover isn't something alien and complicated, nor is giving the AI the ability to dash, sidestep, and recognise hostile hitboxes it shouldn't blindly walk into. This isn't about foreseeing Waveshining and making cpu Fox do it, but actually giving your cpus the ability to do all the basic functions you know you included in the game.

[@pocodyess6050]

You call THAT level 9!?

[@OmegaTyrant]

Which is the "Player's Choice" edition, that fixed a few glitches.

[@mastercyconide7660]

Jungle Japed!

[@AcceptableFilms]

LIKE A BOSS!!!

[@OmegaTyrant]

I have version 1.2, I got Melee around 2004.

[@SpookerstheSpoo]

Nice touch making Luigi player 2.

[@kendrat199]

And they say Luigi isn't a boss.

[@AmberSixtyFour]

Also the AI is made assuming that you will move.

[@OmegaTyrant]

Here's a brief recap for others on why the Melee AI is terrible: *Fighting style consists of walking up to you, a projectile, jab, and an occasional dash grab. *They ignore all dodging options outside an occasional power shield, and will blindly walk into hostile hitboxes to reach you. *They will never utilise another form of movement outside walking (no dashing or jumping) *They significantly underutilise recoveries, including ignoring basic recovery moves (such as Luigi's Super Jump Punch)

[@mach6893]

Long story short the AI overthinks.

[@9sharkman]

I'm not sure if they improved AI on different copies of melee then. The AI on the copy I have are not that simple. I remember when I was younger being able to take on multiple level 9's at once as well. I have gone through two melee discs since then. (although I doubt they would change it that much) I wonder if it's the team dynamic that makes the AI better, because I can hardly stand still against level 9s.

[@MegaMerdeux]

Apathy is the best way to win a fight, trust me!

[@OmegaTyrant]

I have to say, I thought Meta Knight apologists for Brawl were asinine, but I never thought would see someone that would actually be one for Melee's AI. One of my competitive Melee friends (who certainly knows more about the game than either of us) was appalled when he saw someone claiming the Melee AI to be anything but bad.

[@Raikou54]

Probably the fastest match with 3 lvl 9 bots I've ever seen.

[@Mrhippyman123]

only luigi could

[@9sharkman]

If this is true, than I am definitely facing a different AI than you are, sir. When I attempt this, my result is as it should be, them shielding/dodging, then grabbing me, and on a rare occasion, grabbing me out of the air (this happened once, which I don't believe is normally possible in Melee).

[@Garfovsky]

lol why did they even bother making a stage like this if the cpu's can't even handle it without SD'ing all the time ?

[@GLaDOSliedaboutcake]

A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.

[@OmniLegend]

The banana never loses NEVER

[@jolitero]

the hand gun never lose when doing nothing, never.

[@OmegaTyrant]

Heh, it's a coincidence, as player 2 was chosen to get the right platform starting position.

[@BashJoe]

sure there is. its called an extremely old AI built from the ground up. I'd like to see an example of a game with a better AI at the time, or even 4 or 5 years later.

[@DocWorm]

Do you have the original release of SSBM? I have the one that says "Player's Choice" on it, and I know that there are subtle differences between the two.

[@SABlueAngryBlur]

He's green, He's lucky.

[@OmegaTyrant]

"the fighters before melee had SOOOOOOO many less options. melee is without a doubt the most in depth fighting game created up to that point." Whether or not this is true, it is irrelevant, when the AI from past games certainly fought in a much more complex manner than Melee's AI (which as repeated before, consists of walk up to you, throw a couple of projectiles if they have them, and jab with an occasional dash grab.)

[@Kruegernator123]

CPU Luigi is the SSB equivalent of Plank from Ed,Edd n' Eddy.

[@OmegaTyrant]

They don't position themselves intentionally, it's all coincidence and is a natural result of teams. The same would occur with terrible human players that have no team dynamic with team attack off. And they only power shield occasionally and quite randomly, the vast majority of thrown attacks will hit them, unless it's one of the few attacks they for some reason have been programmed to dodge (like Bowser's u-smash and Bowser Bomb).

[@SmashLiXs]

so much happened in under 30 secs. had to keep replaying to know what happened

[@OmegaTyrant]

Oh hey I recognize your name and pic, it's been quite the while since I've seen you.

[@SmashLiXs]

@@OmegaTyrant when was the last time you saw me? (though not literally)

[@OmegaTyrant]

Probably years ago I think.

[@SmashLiXs]

@@OmegaTyrant my has time gone

[@OmegaTyrant]

@@SmashLiXs It has, I wonder if I'll see any more of the old faces I use to see often in my comments.

[@OmegaTyrant]

No there isn't, programming the AI to use a basic move isn't something that was alien at the time, nor programming them to recognise when there's an opposing hitbox they shouldn't walk into. Ever heard of the "MK walker"? Look at some of the fighting games from the 90s, they had some pretty competent AI that actually used their whole moveset, did more than just use one ineffective move, and didn't have their highest level AI blindly walking into stuff like Melee's top AI.

[@OmegaTyrant]

I wouldn't really call the AI decent for its time, even back then Melee's AI was known to be especially bad. Surely they could have gave the AI the ability to do more than jab a lot, and the AI the ability to properly recognise pits and slopes.

[@rycuda5146]

The CPUs was so scared, that they jumped into death. =D

[@OmegaTyrant]

A note to those thumbing up the AI apologist while thumbing me down; play the highest difficulty from some of the fighting games of the 90s, and then compare them to Melee's level 9s. Melee's AI was still terrible in 2001, just as it is now. The "decent for its time" argument does not work, when games up to 10 years older had much more competent AI.

[@Name1045]

Did they fix that in Brawl?

[@sbp1763]

He didn't die either

[@BoneMarrowBro]

How

[@HyperionCSS]

LOL @ Luigi planking

[@hashtag_swag]

Luigi: aight imma die

[@MrUnknownDude]

Computer player decomputer player game!

[@TheShieldsMD]

Man, he didn't even do anything in his win animation. Fucking Luigi, not giving a fuck even when he is contractually obligated to.

[@timothymclean]

What happens if they get 3+ lives? More of the same?

[@kellamyoshikage286]

The more lives, the harder it is to pull off. This set up took an hour.

[@r0bw00d]

Success!

[@zeldaplayer349]

How do you find these stuff?! 0_0

[@GCLU]

this is koro here, surprising that the smash 64 ai is somewhat good then (well define somewhat)

[@Darkshad0vwv]

Inb4 Weegee wins vs seven level 9 CPUs.

[@Unarmedgeof]

MY GOD

[@raidenvakarian9362]

I don't even

[@OmegaTyrant]

Care to elaborate?

[@OmegaTyrant]

Hey people, when there's a spam comment, post here and tell me, so I can block the spambot and remove the spam. I'm not always notified about spam comments.

[@OmegaTyrant]

To be honest, you probably are pretty bad if you can't beat Melee's level nines on even terms, especially if it's Kirby (the worst of the worst). You can literally beat them reliably just by standing still, charging smashes when they near, and unleashing it when they're in range. I could beat them 3 on 1 and five stock them reliably, and I was far from anywhere near a competitive level in Melee.

[@WateermlonMahn]

I think you're slightly over-estimating giant melee characters

[@kennynakawaki]

This is just great 😂

[@MaximumSpiderMvC]

Um, wow.

[@OmegaTyrant]

Seems someone is giving up, explain how I "don't address your points", instead of going "lol your wrong". Also perhaps actually address my points instead of going "I disagree" and asserting you're right?

[@lukemothstoflames4759]

How long did this take?

[@OmegaTyrant]

Vector710 About an hour

[@BashJoe]

In some cases yes, but thats oversimplifying it.

[@errorcode0x7a]

Do Fox vs Luigi on this map 5 lives

[@OmegaTyrant]

I already did that video at 50 stocks kzbin.info/www/bejne/n17FZKd5mJimpJI

[@OmegaTyrant]

I actually never owned the original nor played it for an extended time. I hardly know anything about its AI except that it was just as bad as Melee's.

[@CSLucasEpic]

You can't defeat my Doing Nothing-Fu!

[@GameWatch-xu6sb]

How will he fare against a team of them? My answer: S O L I D

[@LikaLaruku]

It's not the only party game where Luigi winds by doing jack shit.

[@9sharkman]

And to think, the AI here are so bad, but if you ever actually try to fight some AI (I tried going 2v2 with a friend, me and him vs level 9 Kirby and Luigi) they're crazy good. They were beating the crap out of us, and we're far from shabby in Melee.

[@poncho9587]

Cracked sent me here.

[@TheBuba2426]

Quality AI. 10/10 would EA again

[@ianalvord3903]

(⊙...⊙) non can resist the WEEGEE STARE!!!

[@OmegaTyrant]

Really, how can you say an AI that at its highest level, primarily just walks up to you and jab, and doesn't even know how to use all of its moves and abilities, is "decent for its time", when Mortal Kombat and Street Fighter had AI that were notorious for kicking the ass of competent players 10 years earlier?

[@OmegaTyrant]

"and would also like to point out that its a 1 v 1 fighter, not 4 person game." Red herring, Smash can be either, and the AI style of "walk and jab jab jab" is even worse and more ill suited in a FFA. So even if they were designed specifically for FFAs only, the AI is still awful, and in this scenario, even worse.

[@OmegaTyrant]

"it stresses movement over brute force, with constantly evolving strategies" You apparently never played those old fighters, as they certainly involved more than "brute force" and had evolving strategies. Street Fighter 2 didn't become the international tournament sensation and the standard for fighting games by being a button masher that was all about "brute force".

[@amagi4169]

WHAT

[@Eumeus14]

wow

[@m00rtin4]

Ganondorf is the best cpu in melee tho

[@OmegaTyrant]

At fighting other CPUs, undeniably. Becomes more arguable against human opponents, hence Luigi usually being the preferred CPU partner during the occasions where someone teams with a CPU during a tournament.

[@m00rtin4]

@@OmegaTyrant what makes lugi better than ganon as cpu???? he is very strong man

[@OmegaTyrant]

@@m00rtin4 CPU Ganon's Dark Dive spam is going to be far less effective against human players than it will against CPUs that will just walk into it, and CPU Ganon's tendency to constantly throw out Warlock Punches and up tilts in neutral is also obviously not going to do anything against human players, while making him very easy to abuse (as this video of mine demonstrates kzbin.info/www/bejne/roCcqZmrpqypgMk ). Conversely, Luigi's very fast yet powerful moves takes the greatest advantage of a CPU's biggest strength, their instant reaction time, allowing him to more effectively fight human opponents than CPU Ganon can. CPU Luigi's big flaw is his horrendous recovery, but all Melee CPUs are atrocious at recovering and completely trivial to edgeguard by any halfway competent human player, so it doesn't matter much there when any CPU character should be dying every time they're sent offstage.