on queer intra-band shipping culture | are gay ships toxic?

[@Welp-tk3xg]

I believe shipping characters is fine but when it comes to people it gets icky, I’m not saying it’s bad to ship people but doing it to a point where the people are uncomfortable with the ship have been in a way forced into that role

[@maximegabriel]

you make a great argument, there's a difference between shipping characters and real people - there are a lot more implications with the latter.. thanks for your comment! 😊 💞

[@SuperFanGirl-gp1vo]

Concerning Queerbaiting, I think it also needs to be acknowledged that by using that term on real people, we are drawing clear lines on what is queer. When used on Harry Styles and him wearing dresses, we are basically reinforcing gender norms and gatekeeping self-expression unless it is in the name of queerness.

[@maximegabriel]

really good point! that term is so tricky when applied to real people.. thanks for your comment, I hope you enjoyed the video 😊 💘

[@SuperFanGirl-gp1vo]

​@@maximegabriel It was a great video! With some really good points! It is just such a hard topic in general and the more you think about the more the topic gets in my opinion!

[@jenosyoshi]

as a long-term fanfiction writer myself, this has actually been on my mind for such a long time and i've never really found a conclusion to it as to why i personally do queer shipping and have since i was really young. being transmasc, i've definitely been in the position of the "delusional fangirl" that ships idols as to not get jealous, but that's a phase i *really* don't like to get reminded of, lol. never in my life have i written or read self-insert fics, because it weirds me out so much to imagine yourself in a relationship with someone you've never even met, and it's actually made me really uncomfortable before to be part of this culture. some shippers can get too comfortable in their "headcanons" about their ships, projecting it onto the real people and making them out to be a couple when it's (clearly) not the case. i write fanfiction because it means i don't have to come up with my own characters, and it's always the dynamic that makes me ship someone. for example, i already had a favorite ship in a kpop group before i actively started following them, simply because their dynamic stood out to me. sometimes i get moments where i'm like, "i'm writing this about two most likely straight guys, and one of them is in a long-term relationship with a woman" and i realize i'm clearly the weirdo here, but to me, it's never been about those exact two people being in a relationship/me wanting them to be in a relationship. if they are, good for them, if they're not, also good for them. i think it crosses the line when people force their romantic ideas of two persons onto them and get invasive, trying to "confirm" to themselves that they MUST be in love with each other. it's really hard to put these thoughts together coherently as i've really not found my personal conclusion to this, but i agree with what you've said! i can only imagine it to be extremely uncomfortable to see people you've never met comment on you and your friend acting like you're in love, and the fanfiction contest by TVXQ's company weirds me out SO much. i think shipping can get really toxic, especially with shit like fanwars between different shippings (i've seen those happen way too much), but to some degree it's just a kind of "oh i like their dynamic". to some extent it might be reflecting your own desires onto people you look up to but will never meet irl, less with an intent to see yourself in one of the involved parties, but maybe that's more of a fanfiction-kind of thing. reading fanfiction brings you joy because you feel some sort of affection towards the people involved, but you're also at a "safe distance" since they're celebrities. another thought i had was that some people may have the same mindset with celebrities as with fictional characters, because at the end of the day you're never going to meet either of them, but they tend to forget that despite being famous, they're still real people with real feelings (kit connor, for example). not sure if this is making sense, but it was really interesting to watch this as someone who's part of the whole culture. i feel like my views as a fanfic writer differ to those of regular shippers, but i'm not entirely sure about that. it's very strange, even to someone who's been involved for eight years and counting. i could probably go on but i already feel like i'm not making much sense lol. really enjoyed the video though, looking forward to see more of you :)

[@Bhagya-AP]

'unconsciously overturn the male gaze and still appreciate the male body' now that is serious food for thought. as an aroace, who consumes lots of queer content and also is into kpop, this subject has always intrigued me. i dont have any attraction, and hence don't involve in fandoms as such, due to obvious reasons lol. so i've always been a spectator to fan culture. i think it's a completely valid reason for people to not get into kpop sometimes too. the industry can feel toxic and plastic on so many different levels, it's objectively worth pondering on but also too exhausting to get involved in. amazing video however! there's so many of these video essays on yt, it's incredibly difficult to find good ones. keep it up!

[@maximegabriel]

awe thank you so much for your comment, I loved reading it! I am so glad you enjoyed the video! 😊 💞

[@bellabeaton410]

this is really interesting! thanks for posting this. I know a lot of lgbt ships with straight characters irl, like Larry, Muke [edit: misspelt it] (5sos), Ashton (5sos) lestappen (f1), etc so this was a good find ❤

[@maximegabriel]

yes, it's such a big practice!! thank you for your kind comment, I hope you enjoyed the video 😊 💘 💖

[@Bhagya-AP]

Also! it's really interesting how people queer ship in order to escape the heteronormative stereotypes and female objectification, to begin by establishing a semblance of equality only to revert it by reestablishing the stereotypes, because yk this time they're in control and hence it feels more satisfactory perhaps? It also ties heavily into amatonormativity (now i don't know how many people are aware of this term), to dub any and all intimate seeming relationship as romantic off the bat. but that's a whole other topic. then comes how disgusting it is to hyper analyze every micro interaction to bits and shards in order to satisfy some elaborate fantasy about REAL BREATHING PEOPLE. twisted shit fr this whole deal is.

[@GenevieveParis-p5u]

Love your video! So interesting and thoughtful, thank you for posting! :)

[@maximegabriel]

awe thank you so much 😊 I'm so glad you enjoyed the video 💕 💘

[@ella6461]

Love this❤Im so thankful to have found this channel! Every video topic so far has been genuinely interesting and I really appreciate your nuanced videos on queer cultue. Your a breath of fresh air, thank you!!

[@maximegabriel]

awe thank you so much, you have no idea how much your comment means to me 🥹 💞 thank you for your kindness 💘

[@blackk_rose_]

Shipping real people has always made me uncomfortable. Yes, I've liked the idea of some people being together too from a "I'd love more out queer people in the world and they seem cute together" but I'd never feel comfortable directing that at them or obsessing over that. Especially as a queer woman I would never confront anyone with the fact that I believe they could be queer. Because what if these people ARE in the closet? Lauren or whatever her name is at the beginning of the video or KZbinrs Dan and Phil are examples of that actually being the case. Like, think about what you're doing here? At best these people are straight and aren't bothered, at worst these people are queer and terrified, most likely they will not be that comfortable with it no matter what their sexualities are. If people so desperately feel the need to ship real people, they should at least have the decency of keeping it to spaces like fanfiction sites etc. where the people involved aren't constantly directly confronted with it.

[@Koodevotee]

I really don't like shipping. I mean if it was really harmless and people just liked their relationship like Tae and Jimin for example, it would be fine but here with Taekook or Jikook, it pisses me off... The people who ship them know absolutely nothing about the SK, surely do not know that skinship is not seen as the shippers perceive it. Two men hugging, holding hands or even touching each other's thighs is really not a problem. Their videos are so cut and well made that they can make believe everything and anything at anyone. But since I'm pretty sure these people are Western, they see things with their own filters. (I think you pretty much said the same thing but I can't help but say it anyway ) When I started my BTS journey I had absolutely no idea what shipping was then I came across tiktoks of the most famous ships... And each time they showed JK as someone super jealous and with all the members. At that moment, I knew that there was something wrong with their stories... Now I can't stand ships at all, even the most harmless ones, because sooner or later they will invent so-called jealousy, sensuality or even the famous imaginary sexual tension. I know some shippers are harmless but 95% of them live on another planet and many are really toxic. Jungkook is almost systematically portrayed as a lost child who seeks attention from others at all costs, or as an immature teenager who doesn't know how to hold back from touching his "partner" because he's so "whipped". Or even portrayed as a super toxic, jealous and possessive guy who doesn't accept that his "partner" breathes next to someone else. They treat Jungkook like a trash boy and make him out to be someone he's not. Let's be honest, the majority of Taekookers are Tae fans but not JK ​​fans, they don't hesitate to throw him under the bus at the slightest opportunity. They didn't even know him... Anyways, I think these people need to watch this video to be able to step back and see the reality straight in the face. And sorry for my so long comment!

[@sekinixd307]

Such a good video, keep it up my guy

[@maximegabriel]

thank you so much, you're so kind!! 😊 💘

[@FIRXFLY]

Such a well-made video. I would like to say that the fans doing the shipping aren't always heterosexual. I've seen a lot of queer fans do that too, especially if you noticed after this week's kpop drama. Most are joking about which is fine, I do that too but I didn't realize so many fans are being serious about it. Putting your labels on a random person that you don't know at all based of off your stereotypes is so harmful to the queer community but some queer fans themselves don't realize that. Like yes, you shouldn't assume they're straight either but don't be so rigid about it and stop erasing bisexuality for the love of God. Just seeing the bi-erasure this week in kpop tells you so much about how rigid their views on labels, sexualities are and how they don't think those are real actual people. Them being korean adds another layer of fetishization and disconnect where fans can headcannon them as they like. Also, the amatonormativity is my biggest issue with shipping. Everyone has different ideas and views of romance. What someone might consider romantic or sexual might just be platonic for someone else. Platonic relationships can be just as deep and intimate as romantic ones. What even is romance? I've looked for a straightforward answer for years and I am yet to find one. So most fans are forcing their own beliefs about romance onto these celebs. Again I would like to say that making lighthearted jokes about it when the idols themselves are saying they're married to each other is fine. Making assumption is fine as long as you don't force your assumptions onto them, as long as you realize that you could be very wrong about them. We make assumptions about strangers irl all the time, consciously or subconsciously but we don't go upto them and tell them that if they shouldn't be any different than what we think of them as. It's just about how harshly you're doing all of this. We'll never know them but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't give them the space to just exist and be.

[@maximegabriel]

thank you so much for your comment, it was so fun reading it! you have really good points, I hope you enjoyed the video 😊 💝

[@DMasterChifu]

another classic!

[@maximegabriel]

hahaha thank you! hope you enjoyed the video 😊 💞

[@cherryblossom7120]

I hate forced shipping, its ruining kpop and other things. I tell everyone thats its BS.

[@kevincarey2672]

Promo>SM 💦

[@padmashreegurumurthy2599]

Oh than taekook n jikook are fake ships