On The Dyno: Milwaukee 8 Stage IV vs Twin Cam Stage IV

[@MattLaidlaw]

Hey Guys, Throw it up for Nick for producing this entire video. I think he really did an outstanding job at delivering an information-rich video that gives a clear picture of just how these two Big twins compete against one another. He then takes it a step further by perfectly articulating how the Harley-Davidson big twin's power delivery differs from your typical water-cooled sport bike. Special Thanks to Jamie and Keith for Dyno'ing the bikes!

[@Bergamot88]

Too much talk. I wanna see a video produced by Andrew where these guys lineup and settle things once and for all.

[@timmurphy2825]

He did a good job. Kudos! He is a natural at being a salesman. I would feel confident in buying a motorcycle from him. Most car and motorcycle dealerships want you to buy the most expensive you can afford without inquiring about your usage. Seen guys buy $60,000 full size trucks and only use it for commuting and never use it for towing or hauling pissing away $400 a month in gas.

[@Caseysays]

Just did a Stage IV on my 2018 Road King. I love the difference! The bike is so much more responsive. This is a great video. I was really curious what the real power difference was between the M8 and Twin Cam

[@1550tc]

Jason yeah take Andrews dyna put 3-73 gearing into it and keep the front wheel down, easy winner 😝

[@cjsmith]

Excellent explanation 👌

[@northrider8628]

That was worth the 16 min to watch... I believe you are spot on here with this type of video. Thanks Matt. Keep up the good work. I know why Harley Davidson is so much fun to ride.

[@bobbyromo69]

I love the explanation of the power curve it’s true a lot of people get fixated over peak power.

[@SILK334]

Yep every metric guy 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@nallen1006]

@@SILK334 Exactly, bragging about peak numbers but make 30hp at 5k rpms.

[@greasylou886]

This channel is the most informative H-D source on the entire internet., without question. Harley Davidson should be paying you big $$$.

[@Ted_Stryker]

Outstanding job, Nick. Top grades for both production and presentation, man.

[@nicodemus7784]

Matt, I would like to see a video covering the two different cam choices, the HP cam vs the torque cam for stage 2.

[@kainalugreig4639]

Nicodemus agree!!!

[@billdaggett7911]

A Stage4 with the Stage3 498 cam is a good combo. A little less peak hp, more torque. My 117 Stage4 made 128hp/115tq with all SE parts.

[@trollin456]

@@billdaggett7911 Id love more info!!!

[@chunkyfxdls1878]

@@billdaggett7911 why so low tq numbers?? My stage 1 FXDLS made that tq

[@BadBlue32]

This is exactly why I love this channel. Things are explained so that if you’re not a tech or an experienced rider, you can still gain knowledge of all types. Kudos Nick! Channels like this, and dealerships like Laidlaw’s seem to understand that sharing knowledge and creating smarter buyers can certainly build trust, which in turn effects sales. Great job guys!

[@MattLaidlaw]

Thank you!!!

[@hogtirement5050]

Great job Nick, your chart explanation was dead on and very easy to understand the "under the curve" concept. Have a stage one 2018 FLHTKL and love the engine, works great for 2 up touring with luggage any where we travel. Thanks Matt for another informative video.

[@billysaleen]

This was a very well put together video and Nick did a great job explaining the information.

[@freedom6919741]

The torque curve is the reason i went with the stage 3. It made 111hp 116 ftlbs. Makes over 110 ftlbs from 2500 till 5000 rpm. Great for touring !

[@freedom6919741]

1 Hitter there always someone out there faster. I just keep my mouth shut and ride lol.

[@mrh3085]

Freedom Rider case in point. I have a very street friendly pump gas 120R built by TMan Performance. 130+ lb ft of tq from 2500 to 6200. Peak of 145 tq at 3500. 135hp. My buddy has a built 103ish 😉 twin cam with a turbo and methanol injection. 180+ hp & tq. 😳 “There always somebody faster”

[@Xboxliveyomomma127]

The Alpha Male there is modded out milwakee 8s that are like 128cu that make that

[@speedyspeed8492]

Awesome job Nick you really knocked this one out of the park!

[@slyguyaction]

A really thorough, polished, quality review of these engines with the Stage kits installed. The added explanation of what the numbers mean as well as detailing the advantages/disadvantages of the individual kits and the type of riding they’re suited for was an added bonus. This guy knows what he’s talking about and if I decide to do any Stage kits to my 2015 FLHTK, I know where I’m going. Thanks Nick!

[@MattLaidlaw]

Thanks Ryan. Your Comment is appreciated!

[@bobber1656]

Great video and explanation. Nick clearly and objectively explains that as technically advanced as the Milwaukee 8 is, the Twin Cam still has it's place and is not obsolete. Different needs for each rider. I've ridden the new Softails and love them, but I love the mechanical, classic feeling and sounds of the TC. Both are great and different. Great job. Thanks Nick! ;)

[@LarryRickenbacker]

Never owned anything other than smooth Honda cruisers. Recently test-drove an '04 Dyna Wide-Glide (Twin-Cam 88). The big Harley roared, vibrated, snorted and VROOMED!! I never knew how much fun I'd been missing!

[@bobber1656]

I agree with you 100%. That's a big part of the fun of riding a Harley. That feeling of riding a living, breathing machine. I never cared when others would criticize my bike for exactly what I love about it. They don't know what they're missing until they experience it for themselves. Honestly, I just think they're jealous.

[@MrCoffey23]

Absolutely a fantastic video, thank you for the delivery of such an amazing pre-sight into both

[@kdoggy6069]

A natural in front of the camera! Good job Nick

[@bones27]

Nick, great job on the vid! You made it very easy to understand the difference between riding a Harley and riding a street bike. Now I know why I have a constant smile on my face riding my '95 fxdl and my '12 flhx, thanks man!

[@Prairie_Barbarian]

Horsepower is fun, but torque is what counts in everyday normal use. Great video, would love to see more Dyno comparisons!

[@powerman1972]

Great video! Explains in clear, straight forward information that will help a lot of people decide on which performance upgrade is right for them and their bike. Kudos to Laidlaws Harley Davidson.

[@Crowbar381]

Fantastic video, you explained things so clearly and I learnt a lot from this, 👍😃

[@joewyman2235]

Best video I have seen yet on this topic very informative well put together great job I have been contemplating a stage four on my 15 twin cam it’s a lot of money and a tough decision this video helps a lot I love the two graphs on the same page great job guys and thank you California is way too far to get work done on my bike wish we were closer

[@hughsnyder891]

Joe Wyman I would suggest checking out S&S or Zippers Performance. They put together really nice packages. Since your bike is most likely out of warranty that’s not a consideration. Worth looking into for sure.

[@geoffozevans4500]

A very well explained vlog in the various Stage builds,really surprised with the figures, I would have thought that the 117 would have had more HP, but not the case. Top marks to Nick for his honesty, as a salesman he could have plugged the Stage 4 options which cost more, but was totally candid & truthful, rare to see these days. All the best guys 👍👍😎

[@dynalonerider6008]

117 tuned by Harley on a Dyno with PowerVision in Missouri got me 127hp/134tq peak numbers! Haha

[@geoffozevans4500]

@@dynalonerider6008 👍👍

[@bbgdaddy5198]

Very good description. Thanks for throwing in the differences and descriptions. This was good!

[@mattthegreeter9074]

Nick, very well done brother! Keep up the great work! I have enjoyed seeing the content and quality of this channel get better and better.

[@Firestorm637]

Great job explaining the area under the curve. So many people, like you said, ask peak horsepower but who drives their bike around near red line all the time unless racing. Most bikes you have to decide torque engine or horsepower engine as you usually can not have both. I did buy a 2018 Super Duke 1290r that almost satisfies both. 177 crank horsepower(around 155 rear) and 104 FT pounds crank(93 rear) with max torque around 6500 rpm and max horsepower 9500 rpm. This is the only stock engine I know of that can do this all in only 470 pounds wet. As I become older I can not push around a 700 pound bike. Thanks again for explaining importance of street ability with meaty midrange

[@ccollins9981]

Great video, what it proves to ME personally again and again is that throwing all that money at HD upgrades on ANY Big Twin HD Engine IS NOT WORTH IT for any reason EVER. The $ per Horsepower or Torque gain is STUPID for the MINIMAL gains you get. Just ride the damn bike.

[@garynardelli9981]

Great information for my next bike. I want to say how much I enjoy all of Laidlaw's reviews. It's your honesty I appreciate the most. I'll be 70 yrs young soon and plan on a trip to California so I can see the Pacific ocean. Maybe I'll stop by and introduce myself. Keep the rubber side down.

[@kennethreynolds8]

Great job Nick, some very educational material.

[@jasonbreedlove495]

Awesome video. I like how y'all took the time to really explain the power band and why "top numbers" don't always mean faster or better. For me, in any of my bikes a Stage 2 or Stage 3 was fine for me. With my 2018 Heritage, 107 I stuck stage 2 torque kit adding to my TAB slipons, HD Extreme AC and SE Tuner. All that gave me peak 97hp and 113 FP, but the best was my torque starts at over 100 from 2500 rpm, with a steady increase all the way to 4500, and the HP has a smooth and consistent increase through the RPMs. For me stage 2 was fine, on my 16 Ultra I'm keeping It stage 1 as it's my long distance runner, and the heritage is my daily rider, with a few long weekend trips planned. Keep up the great work.

[@tylerthomas9059]

I’m so glad someone finally posted up REAL numbers on a Low Rider S. Not a doctored up run.

[@clubstyleridahd4695]

That twin cam is so sick! The power, the looks it's got it all. I think i like the twin cam 117 better than the 131 also

[@0toeknee0]

This kid did a good job in explaining what the numbers REALLY mean in the real world. I try to explain to new riders it's NOT the peak power that matters.

[@MattLaidlaw]

Thank you.

[@1Kenpoman]

Awesome video really explains why Harley's are so much fun!

[@mojomanmurph1925]

Really good video, very unbiased and informative. Watch till the end for good info.

[@smokeymountain8163]

I have a 103 FXDWG and just upgraded to the stage IV as well. I don’t ride very aggressively and hang around the 2-3k rpm range for most of my cruising. My H-D tech suggested that for my riding, I swap out the cam that came in the stage kit for a low torque cam. The sweet spot is now between 2.5k-4.5k, which is perfect for my riding. Point is you can upgrade any motor to fit your riding style, just choose the right combination of parts.

[@k9m42]

What can did you end up getting?

[@smokeymountain8163]

k9m42 Went with Stage IV Tire Shredder kit w/ 585 cam

[@phillipmonroy]

Very informative! Enjoy your videos, keep them coming.

[@jetdoctn]

Excellent video Nick! Very informative. Thanks

[@mosgor]

Great well-made and informative video, with two great bikes. keep up the good work guys! love this stuff!

[@ToddWoodman]

Thanks for the explanation. It justified what I thought about stage 3.

[@tomdillon363]

Thanks for the video, Nick. Very informative and actually instructional for those who know not from whence they speak lol Glad you brought up the part about a stock 107 outperforming these stage 4 bikes at lower rpm. I cruise the interstates at 3K rpm in 6th gear (80 mph) on my '18 Road Glide 107 and there is a surprising amount of roll-on power at that speed. IMO the M8 is the best stock motor they have ever built!!!

[@Andy-px1mj]

I am new to riding (I’ve got a 2019 Freewheeler), this is such a great informative video. For looking at upgrades, I now know what to look for, and understand how power actually works. Thanks.

[@gregoryunderwood4121]

Great job Nick!!! Thanks for all the great info!

[@robertyoung5678]

Awesome video !! I really appreciate you guys being honest with the dyno numbers an about how to choose the right stage kits!!!! This video help me to decide to get the stage 3 kit on my 2019 heritage 107 ! !

[@gruntspeedandcustom5218]

Thanks heaps for explaining the graph to us mate it helped me understand how they work.

[@24sevvin]

I had the Milwaukee 8 in both a Road King and a Road Glide. I never felt they were fast at all. Combined with the crap suspension I never felt like either one was “fun” to ride. Yes they served the purpose they were intended for. Maybe a stage 4 would have woken them up but I never gave that a chance. Instead went to a 18 ZX14r for the “fun and fast” and a 2013 Ultra for the comfort and cruising. I feel like I have both styles covered now.

[@matthewlidel4324]

Another well put together video Matt.

[@amospizzey1]

What a brilliant instructional video . Thank you 🙏🏻

[@supersnug1519]

Great video and explanation Nick, helped give me a better understanding of Dyno charts 👍👍👍

[@MattLaidlaw]

Glad Nick could help.

[@tetlow2]

Awesome video guys. You never disappoint. I can't wait to put some cash in my 10 fxdb. I swear me and that bike were meant to be.

[@glennchurch6892]

Great video and explanation! Thanks!

[@MrGustav2000]

Thanks Matt and Nick! Really good video. I’m in the process of upgrade soon. And the vid was very informative. Thanks again from Sweden 🇸🇪

[@speedpig513]

Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall...... torque is how far you move it!

[@dynalonerider6008]

Not correcting more or less asking, horsepower is accelerating and torque is effort to move the bike right?

[@codykersch449]

Torque is twisting force at the wheel hp is the amount of work the mottor is capable of doing

[@ihsanihsan6999]

Well presented and information provided useful. Well done. Definitely will use information provided when deciding what stage to go for on my M8 Softail.

[@moulis05]

Another awesome video. Nice job Nick! Clear and concise. I've just had a Screamin Eagle stage 4 kit put on my 2108 FXBRS. I've found that my bike feels a lot less aggressive through the gears and is actually a fair bit easier to ride. I haven't had it on the dyno yet as I'm going to put 1600 km on it first and do the Dyno and service at the same time. I'm loving how it feels now though and having it up to around 4000 rpm you can feel it really wants to stretch out. I'm going to wait for a track day at my local drag strip and see how it does down the quarter mile.

[@turbomustang84]

And in the real world on an open road the Milwaukee 8 completely cuts out at 107mph as the twin cam waves by by and continues to North of 120mph

[@thruiner]

Robbie's Incoherent thoughts but let’s be realistic. In the real world, who actually rides that fast day to day? And of those extreme few, how long do they live? Not very long

[@Jahmed163]

Very informative video. Agree on the low end torque importance compared to high revving Sport bikes. But you forget the weight difference between the two. Power to weight ratio makes Sport bikes much faster. Thank you. Love the video.

[@scottwilloughby3840]

Really great video well explained thanks keep up the great work

[@aaronduthoit1278]

The reason I went with a stage 3 M8. Good video

[@frankiebovino8690]

Im considering a stage 3 cam with the stage 4 heads but not sure if anyone has tried that yet...wonder if it would yield more hp while not sacrificing much low end torque.

[@useryrock]

Pretty weak numbers for both bikes really. My TC 110in built by Fuel Moto makes 123hp and 134tq. Screaming Eagle kits leave a lot of power on the table compared to a lot aftermarket engine builders IMO...

[@thomasangelo4219]

Thanks for the info Nick take care guys

[@fastlane1568]

Great video keep em coming Matt!

[@dadtrap]

Great video Nick. I have a stock 13 FLSTC that is just a blast to ride in the mountains. I also have an 18 FLHTK with a stage II. I live in the 3000 to 4500 rpm range and my stage II is perfect. But my ultimate bike is my 01 sporty

[@jonnycando]

I hit subscribe on the basis of This video....they are all great but this one I subscribed on!

[@Otis884]

Nick did a great job.

[@freedom6919741]

Awesome Matt ! Great video buddy.

[@1550tc]

Nick great video and job explaining the below the curve..m8 just has so much potential... Andrews is perfect for me and all I would do is run 3.73 gearing and give up top end mph ...Nick it’s not how fast you go...it’s how fast you get there 😳 😛

[@fililoboesparza5784]

Great job on explaining Nick.👍🏻 So I got a question for you. I got a16 FLSS Its has stage1, SE Smart auto tuner, SE Street canons, I want to put a stage2 torque cams. What will be a good low-end torque cams for my bike?

[@Ozzy2341]

Are those performance Machine grips on the blue bike ?

[@hanleydaleson954]

was a little jealous of a friend that just got a fxlr... I think my 17 fxdb twin cam fits more of my riding style...just gotta do more work for it be just as nimble...but in the end knowing myself I wouldn’t have the guts to test the limits of either motor/machine...thank you for the run down on the dyno chart...I had no idea what I was looking at before lol

[@daviddb1972]

Great video! Fantastic job gentlemen.

[@jimweagant8920]

Great video thanks for sharing what would be the best for a 16 tri glide a 3 or 4

[@oregonoutback7779]

Excellent video, Nick. This was a great comparison between Stage 4 builds. Very interesting results. One thing I can say for certain, you and Andrew both own serious torque monsters! On another note, after our little back & forth discussing your Lowrider in the last video, I stopped this video and spent some serious time giving your bike a second look over. I agree with you about the exhaust. A completely blacked out bike may be too much black. A little chrome or stainless steel lightens things up a bit. Contrast is good. I still don't like the graphics, but if you do, then I'm all for it :)) Once again, very nice video.

[@TH3G0ODGUY]

Thanks for watching man, we appreciate it!

[@chunkyfxdls1878]

@@TH3G0ODGUY Sorry for commenting on such an old post Nick, I am about to do the Stage 4 117ci upgrade on my dyna low rider s and I was wandering if you could tell me if I will need to change my stock heavy breather?? My local dealer wasn’t sure whether it needs to be changed/upgraded or just slightly modified with a backing plate I think they said..... Any help would be much appreciated!! 🙏🏼🤟🏼

[@TH3G0ODGUY]

@@chunkyfxdls1878 I would change it out, the heavy breather, while it looks cool, isn't the best intake for performance. Something that doesn't have a block off plate facing in the direct path of the wind will do better. The heavy breather basically forces the intake to suck air into it from the sides, rather than being force fed air directly hitting it.

[@chunkyfxdls1878]

@@TH3G0ODGUY Ok Nick great thanks for the reply!! Any suggestions??

[@hoss6048]

Really enjoyed that.

[@patforet7336]

Great explanation Nick, good job.

[@lawdawg5823]

Awesome video. I would like to see more twin cam and Milwaukee 8 comparisons!

[@gunterm2009]

Great video and explaining it all.

[@miketodd8640]

Great video! Lots of info to take in. I just purchased a '19 Sport Glide. After about a year of looking, kicking tires, watching Matt's and a lot of other peoples videos I pulled the trigger on a Stage III kit. With the kit I also purchased: SE Round Extreme - Flow air cleaner, Street Cannon slip on muffler, Adjustable pushrods(Tuner also). Just under 4K with labor. All installed at purchase. For me it's about ROI. Where I ride and the cost to add a few horses. I don't ride at 5K all day, i go there but not all day. The Stage 4, another 1K, and is that the right cam? Lot of things to think about, that's why it took me a year to pull the trigger. I will tell you that the "GRIN FACTOR" is very high with this setup. On another note; the Stage 2 kit should be labeled as A and B because of the two different cams offered. Ride happy, I am! Thanks Matt. Nick too.

[@marwannabe]

I have a Low Rider S, dropped the 117 kit in it and 1,000 km into it started seeing an oil leak right where both cylinders meet at the bottom. Replaced the kit twice under warranty and would get the same result after 1,000 km​, with a diagnosis that the 110 is originally a bored out 103, and not coping well with the pressure of the 117 kit, and so I ended up with a brand new full crate 110 motor Stage 1, and dropped the idea of further tuning. Having said so, I have two other 103 Stage 4 (Street Glide and Slim) both running bulletproof. Have you experienced this leak with any 110 twin cams upgraded to 117?

[@bav114]

Great video. Very educational. Thanks.

[@MattLaidlaw]

Thanks for watching. 👍🏻

[@TheCountryCoach]

Excellent educational session! What stage could my 2018 CVO Limited be considered as when stock from the factory?

[@TH3G0ODGUY]

It's not really a stage when stock. The CVO 117 doesnt come with the components from the stage kits as standard. Still the most powerful stock engine Harley makes!

[@bradwilliams4921]

Great video and explanation but a little confusing. You mentioned Stages but what influence does the cam you select have on the curve?

[@jamessmoth8683]

Wish I saw this before I bought my 2019 flhxs with a stage 4 kit already installed

[@corneliusx1811]

Thanks. Great information.

[@LatinoRider]

Great video!

[@irakli9604]

For stage 3/4 upgrade, is it necessary to have 2 into 1 exhaust ? For example, V & H short shots staggered is not gonna work ?

[@brodieherring9958]

Hey guys, I have a dyna 103. Looking at either a stage 3 or 4, mostly riding around in the mid to high rev range around town and through hills. What would you guys recommend? Cheers.

[@jeffreyponting9524]

I think he did an excellent job of explaining it. I hear so many people say (why should I buy a $25,000 Harley when I can get a crotch rocket for $7500 with 110 hp). Harleys make double the torque and close to the same hp but at lower rpms.

[@TheBigkal201]

This was a quality representation thanks

[@synonyx]

Good solid video. But I guess I’ll stay stage2 on my 114 M8. I made 106hp and 128tq. Not worth a couple grand just to gain 10 or so hp. Hiro Koiso tuned it. He’s probably the best tuner on the west coast. If you want the dyno sheet PM me.

[@depthsounderdave]

What cam and tuner? When my factory warranty is up in Sept. I may do the stage II.

[@noecervantes4087]

Hi Matt, Would you say there would be a significant Tq and HP difference between a Twin Cam Stage IV and Stage III? Thinking about upgrading my 2013 Blackline but am a bit torn between both stages. I would say my highway to street miles are about the same. I love the lower end rpm power capabilities of the Stage III but would still want that pull away power at higher rpms that the Stage IV offers. Any ideas? Thanks for creating these videos as well!

[@scottstewart8737]

Well done

[@jimbeam4111]

Great explanation

[@MrXo]

Nice work brotha

[@harleydave2316]

Great explanation!! Thank you....

[@robertlumsden942]

yes well done. you have educated a few for sure. thanks.

[@k9m42]

My TwinCam 103 SE stage 4 makes 111 HP and same torque. Love it money well spent.

[@tomtalamantez8934]

You guys still using a “sniffer” in the tail pipe? We built a similar build with not a super tuner on the M8, it was 127hp and 127ftlb. Torque was a lot flatter also.

[@markmaxwell57]

Excellent stuff. Looking forward to more of it. What would be the advantage/disadvantage of swapping out the Stage 4 cam for the Stage 3 cam in a Stage 4 build. It seems that might give you the best of both worlds. So now with the dyno up and running how 'bout some in depth information on Street tuner w/Smart tuner..please

[@frankiebovino8690]

wondering the same thing, just want to know if it'll function with the SE tuner.

[@Lefty-uj4rt]

Good video! Nice job nick!

[@spfadden082711]

This is pretty good.. The stage 3 stage 4 argument is ok. Its really about the cam. Yes someone should not waste money on stage 4 if they are just trying to ride 2 up and cruise but you can definitely do a stage 4 with a tq cam and really get that engine to work for you down low. The packages from harley is something i am not familiar with as much so you may be stuck with a certain cam. However S&S or another company can get you a cam in any stage to fit your needs.

[@0321ReconMan]

Will the belts hold up on an M8 stage 4? Would it be better to convert to chain?