Borg Vs. Starfleet: How The Borg Actually Won And Defeated Starfleet

[@casbot71]

In the cancelled season 5 of Enterprise, they were going to have Alice Krieg (the Borg Queen) as a Starfleet medical technician, who encounters the Borg from season 2 and....

[@CaptShriver]

No that sounds interesting

[@fatenabu1]

When was this stated?

[@bigbywolf586]

Except for the cannon breaking fact that Alice Krige’s Borg queen was not human, but the Starfleet Scientist was a human (as was stated in the draft script for the proposed Enterprise episode). As the queen said to Seven in Dark Frontier, “We all originated from lesser species. I myself came from Species 125". It was an interesting idea for an episode, and an intriguing take on the origin story - it would certainly add an interesting motivation for the Borg obsession with “humanity”, the queen subconsciously (or perhaps her repressed individuality) attempting to regain a part of her that was lost to assimilation, by ironically assimilating it. I prefer the “V’ger hypothesis myself, or perhaps the distant origin theory. The latter would tie into cannon, for example an AI from the octopus robot dimension as seen in Picard, could have somehow gotten trapped in the delta quadrant by a space-time wibbly, and as it was isolated sought to create companions and thusly created (assimilated) a biological entity (as thus dimension seems to be dominated by biologicals) that was in part synthetic and that being became “slaved” to the AI. The AI realised that this was preferable as why have a few mates when you can conquer this dimension with an unlimited army of these cyBorgs? And thusly the Borg were born. Their development started slowly as they learn through assimilation as it’s more efficient than trial and error, but as their numbers and knowledge grew, their growth became exponential, cut to Q kindly flipping the Enterprise D in their path, and suddenly the Borg have a super efficient target. In the sense that a federation crew, and data core, would have the collective knowledge of many species and their technology, rather than that of a single species, and thusly the Borg obsession with the federation is born. That’s my head cannon anyways 😅

[@benjaminjarrett9816]

I’ve flirted with the V’ger idea myself. Let’s explore the thought experiment for a minute… When V’ger finally merged with two beings that were illogical, emotional and dare I say different in all aspects. It very well could have changed V’ger, when I got married it didn’t take terribly long for me to become who I am. I’ll still be changing/adapting until the day I die, just like the borg. The change V’ger may have had could be compared to a child discovering fireworks or an addict finding a new drug. All that power and logic but no ambition, just a directive (find humanity and relay all information) what then? Our guess is simple, seek for perfection and assimilate all knowledge or distinctiveness… scary thought considering we are becoming more and more like the borg each and every day.

[@mastertorryn5397]

Yeah there's different times

[@Neoxenok]

"The borg did win... from a certain point of view." Obi-Wan would be proud.

[@SolidAvenger1290]

After watching JTVFX's most recent unique animated Part 1 video covering the massacre at Wolf 359, that would most definitely be the case. P.S: I recommend everyone to go watch their fantastic take on that legendary & iconic event in Star Trek lore that no one has ever covered or created

[@Psych1_-]

@@SolidAvenger1290Yeah it was freaking awesome

[@CaseyOntiveros]

The change of the Federation was a shift towards militarism, which was a weird thing to see. The difference of technology… it was a budget and technology constraint of the mid-60s television. And shooting for 4x3 screens.

[@LoreReloaded]

The theory is based on in universe considerations

[@MalzraAirwynn]

@@LoreReloaded Personally a theory loses me when it's based not around lore and story but things like 'the show from the 60s looks different.' That feels like a huge reach, it'd be like trying to say Xial is three different people in DS9 because she was recast etc, unless there's something in story to back it up.

[@mrbojangles8133]

though for appearences sake the UFP ditches the MACO

[@casbot71]

What if the Borg's ability to detect timeline changes is from assimilating El-Aurians? - Guinan's species.

[@russellharrell2747]

I thought Guinan had temporal sensing abilities from being exposed to the nexus.

[@TheNoiseySpectator]

@Casbot. That seems reasonable to me. ✔️

[@alistairrae9807]

It makes sense that they assimilated millions if not billions of El-Aurians

[@Raphmatic5000]

Considering the Romulans' antagonistic feelings towards AI as set up by Picard, and their involvement with the Borg, sort of dating back to TNG Season 1 (if we're to accept that the mystery destroyer of Federation and Roumlan installations was the Borg), this theory makes a lot of sense. The Romulans may have been fighting their own struggle against the Borg, without realizing it was the Borg, which explains their absence for galactic politics, as well as their lack of response when the Borg attack the Alpha Quadrant.

[@marhawkman303]

TNG told us that in Season 1 of TNG the ROMULANS had several colonies destroyed by the Borg. the initial borg incursion into Federation space... was along the ROMULAN Neutral Zone!!! So yeah it logically makes sense that the Romulans would have entire scrap heaps of Borg junk.

[@firestuka8850]

We do not want cloaked Borg

[@captainteutonica5474]

I think the theory holds up and would explain a great deal.

[@darkXenio]

what exactly would it explain? Why alter all these timelines and then get destroyed by future Janeway?

[@theturquoisedream9244]

Excellent essay Lore!

[@Ser_Redshirt]

My takeaway is nobody in the Trek universe watched RDM's Battlestar Galactica. You want Cylons, Lana? Because this is how you get Cylons.

[@Dawt_Calm]

I made a meme a few years ago. In the first panel Elon Musk is talking about advancements in Neuralink. In the second panel Picard with his hand outstretched asking "Do you want Borg? Because this is how you get Borg!" (The Picard panel came from the episode where Picard was trying to get Lwaxana Troi back from a Ferengi holding her captive. Picard was telling her that he's rather everyone die than live without her. So he had his arm outstretched with palm up in a Shakespearian manner. Perfect gesture for that meme.)

[@andrewmalinowski6673]

Perfect reference due to the idea; "All of this has happened before, and will happen again." The final scene of the last episode already establishes the idea that a "new generation" of Cylons would be created. Given the Shatner-verse idea that the Borg were created by V'ger, the Enterprise episode "Regeneration" linking both "First Contact" and "Q, Who?" and the idea that the Borg were aware of "shifts in time" would mean that the true origins of the Borg are likely as entwined with humanity as whoever/whatever made them

[@RoXolid]

Definitely an interesting take, and I agree whether through assimilation or influence the Borg did change the federation.

[@serina3872]

Since its introduction, I always considered control to be some reversed engineered technology from the crashed borg Sphere from Enterprise because of the similarities. The original timeline I've personally believe is; TOS, TNG, the first 2 TNG Movies. Then because of first contact, a second timeline would be; Enterprise, Discovery (season 1) and that control no organic future ( with some sort of TOS and TNG as well) Then when Discovery went to the future, a third timeline was created; Enterprise, Discovery (season 1-2), Strange new Worlds, a version of TOS, TOS films, TNG, Deep Space Nine, voyager (during the prior 2 the first 3 TNG films), Nemesis, Lower Decks, Prodigy, Picard and finally Discovery season 3-5

[@fatenabu1]

Even though it sounds like hand waving magic, every thing that is a plot hole or break canon can be attributed to the time travel shenanigans of people. Everytime time travel happens stuff changes. The Romulan agent in SNW mentions this in a round about way with Khan happening later than he originally did.

[@rianmacdonald9454]

It is right - you can't change anything - only delay it. Case and point - You go back and kill Hitler - you stop WW2 in 1939 - However, it now happens in the 1960's instead with full Nuclear Weapons - with out learning the lesson of why you can't use Nuclear Weapons - and oh well there is humanity F'ed in a Nuclear Winter.

[@drewf41]

Don't forget about the non-timetravel shenanigans from TNG: Parallels. Once you add in the "fork in the road stuff," not even Janeway can ignore it anylonger.

[@TurKlack]

Which is why I would just Q time travel away if I ever get a chance to make anything Trek. That also means that any and all benefits the Federation received through Time Travel (And that must be many considering the Time Police never appeared when time shenanigans benefited the Federation) and I assume they would be a little more Militaristic in the process.

[@diegomata1062]

Dude this is so easy to explain the change came with the temporal wars in Enterprise, thats why tech in Strange new worlds looks so different and advance. TOS era happened in prime timeline where there was no temporal war and there was no need to advance as quick technologically as they did remember the temporal wars affected the whole quadrant so all the species had an upgrade technologically

[@invictus2578]

And maybe in the long run the borg would try and get rid of pain but the initial assimilation and surgical augmentations are done without any anesthesia, so yeah, quite painful

[@CaptShriver]

The borg would have to inject them with something that controls blood pressure cuz when you're in pain your blood pressure goes thru the roof and they don't seem to pass out when they're being assimilated they look totally conscious in a collective sort of way

[@invictus2578]

The nano probes control all of that to hijack your nervous system the Nuro transceiver probably keeps you awake. I doubt they would be really concerned about any of the new drones, feeling any sort of Pain

[@krisgonynor689]

Sort of a side question: Why did the Borg on the Sphere transport to the Enterprise? Why not down to the Earth? They could have easily hid out among it's scattered population, which was still recovering from WW3. Within days, there would have been an army of them. Each Borg has the collective knowledge of the Borg species, so they would have no problem building technology and weapons which the unsuspecting people of Earth would have no defense against. The Big E's long range sensors were down, they could not have scanned Earth for the Borg. The crew would have been busy making sure Zeph makes his first warp flight. Since the Borg did enough damage to have stopped the flight - the radiation leak in the launch tube would have killed the ground crew and made it impossible to launch the Phoenix, at least in time for the Vulcans to see them, so Picard and company would figure out that was their plan, and make sure the Phoenix launched on time. After getting first contact with the Vulcans taken care of, the Big E would have (somehow? How did they get back to their own time period?) gone back to the 23th century - and found the Borg everywhere. The only thing I can think of is that maybe Jean Luc would have sensed them? In that case, by the time they were found, there would have been too many of them to stop - I doubt he would have ordered Earth bombed from orbit with Quantum Torpedoes after all. Given even a few hours, the Borg would have spread out and expanded their numbers so much that any other way of stopping them would have been impossible. Worse yet, once the Big E had left, the Borg would have crashed the party with the Vulcans, taking their ship and taking Vulcan within months.

[@castieldiallo2945]

Well done, Chambers. I hope you are getting your health in check.

[@LoreReloaded]

Lolwut

[@Soliprem]

I think the visual changes in SNW are just a visual update and carry no more meaning than that. In fact, I quite like them, for the most part. But an interesting theory nontheless

[@LoreReloaded]

I whole heartedly agree... it's just a fun thought experiment

[@zakkpierce]

​@@LoreReloadedtbh I'm in love with your theory though. The aesthetic differences I've had with SNW can be solved with it

[@kingssman2]

I believe Gene Roddenberry addressed something similar with the Klingons "They always looked like that. You just didn't see it"

[@Soliprem]

@@kingssman2 this is the way I justify the visual differences. I feel like SNW has enough buttons to be similar *enough*

[@obsidian179]

I’m reminded of the assimilation virus in Dark Frontier. True, it was never actually deployed (due to Seven refusing to help develop it to a usable state), but what you’re talking about could easily be a related technology, either a precursor or an offshoot.

[@captainteutonica5474]

That title was unexpected.

[@LoreReloaded]

But not unwelcome?

[@captainteutonica5474]

​@@LoreReloadednone of your videos or their titles have ever been unwelcome.

[@casbot71]

*How to fix the Queen concept.* OT, but behind the scenes, the Borg Queen was created because producers wanted a dramatic foil for character interaction for the non Trekkie First Contact film audience. But by doing so they removed what made the Borg unique - it's faceless nature, the terror that you're not facing a mastermind but a _"onrushing force of nature."_ They could have kept the Borg pure, and still had a direct face to face confrontation however, by simply making a _Locutus mark 2._ And the perfect candidate is *Dr Pulaski.* The actress herself might’ve been interested, as she wouldn't otherwise be getting further Trek work. And it wouldn't be possible to get any of the regular cast to forfeit future pay days. The Pulaski character could easily be reintroduced without suspicion, Dr Pulaski is visiting and/or helping with the new Medical bay systems shakedown. And when she gets assimilated it's a shock, to both the crew of the Enterprise and the regular Trek audience. This is someone with a history with both. That is the Borg's modus operandi, they assimilate a key member of a target species and use them to come up with strategies to assimilate their entire species. And if that approach fails they try again using a different _"intermediary"_ to come up with a new approach or angle of attack. If that fails they try again and again, with new "Locutus's". They are adaptable in their approach, it's not just a brute force rush that you can plan for. That increases the fear factor, how are they going to try next time? This also explains this Borgs attempt to co-opt Data, Dr Pulaski was always obsessed with the idea of was he sentient? This is the first time they've met since Data got his emotion chip, so Dr Pulaski would be suprised by how he behaved. Picard is a military man deep inside, so Locutus had come up with a simple go for the heart strategy, as he knew deep down that Starfleet _at that time_ was not capable of defending a frontal assault on Earth. So that explains Pulaskus of Borg having a different strategy. And when she dies, because the crew have no other option, it will affect them, this isn't another revolving helmsman. Besides, with her long face Diana Muldaur would look sinister as a Borg. The Borg look just doesn't suit round faces .... sorry Agnes.

[@LoreReloaded]

The queen was such a bad decision in my opinion.

[@casbot71]

​@LoreReloaded It's like discovering that there's a Zombie King in The Walking Dead. It completely flips the concept. Now the Borg are just the minions of the *evil villain* with the diabolical laugh. If the Borg Queen had a moustache, she'd twirl it. Instead Locutus mark 2 and mark 3 and mark .. it's just scary. It could have even been adapted to Voyager, one of the crew gets assimilated in order to help hunt them down. But are they really trying to assimilate Voyager or just push priming them to farm them for a better payoff later? The Harry Kim/Kes writing out contest could have been resolved with one of them being assimilated. Either Kimus of Borg, and that's why Janeway and Paris keep winning, they know what Harry would try. Or Kesses of Borg (more acceptable to Jennifer Lien than just being written out) - the writers hadn't given Kes the big psychic power up that was part of her leaving arc. Kesses has only the same power level as when she was body napped by that warlord. Formidable face to face as you have to cope with a telepath that can also give you an aneurysm, but the Borg aren't going to be throwing ships around with telekinesis. And the final return story arc could be about hacking the Borg "intermediary", allowing them to hijack a route home. Instead of the Borg Queen going "rats, foiled again."

[@Dawt_Calm]

@@casbot71 Imma agree, thumbs up for both comments. Always thought the queen ruined the Borg as a species to explore concepts and different ways of "being". You're abosultely right that the writers introduced the queen for a dramatic foil and your way is much better solution while keeping the collective concept intact. Because as a concept a collective species would have a very deep well of material to mine. So for instance the arm of the Borg thus far encountered by the Federation were militaristic and used force. But what if a collective were only voluntary, you could join the collective and even leave it if you wanted. You might think "Who would want that?" People where that option is more attractive than their current circumstances. If they were dying of some disease that Borg implants could overcome for example. There could be a concept where you sign up for the collective for a specific duration of time. What I mean is there's like endless places you could take the story telling. In fact a passive Borg would sometimes be more nefarious than belligerent, militaristic Borg because they are simply offering an opportunity to be part of something "larger" and that might be attractive to many people. But how do you fight that? You don't. The more basic question is "Do you have the right to stop people from joining a Borg collective". There could of been like a Borg recruitment center on DS9 promenade. lol People find them creepy as hell, like a cult thing. But they're handy to have around too in a pinch. There could be story lines where the fine line between coercion/volunterism etc. Just so many more interesting concepts than just having another baddie they fight against.

[@andrewmalinowski6673]

@@Dawt_Calm Too bad they didn't go with "volunteer to be Borg" until the Picard S2 finale when Agnes decides to offer assimilation rather than force it, creating a balance between her identity and that of the Borg Queen

[@Dawt_Calm]

@@andrewmalinowski6673 I forgot about Agnes! I tend to block out Picard S1 & 2. lol

[@stevenboggess9805]

I'd imagine if the Borg were serious about assimilating the entire federation they'd send more than one cube.

[@SolidAvenger1290]

Has anyone seen the latest/recent animated movie ( part 1) on KZbin covering the massacre at Wolf 359? It already has 200K views after almost a week. Lore must check out that video of how events likely transpired during that iconic and legendary Star Trek event against the Borg. It's a fantastic piece of art & production in terms of following the story during the events of TNG, early DS9, etc.

[@ZoeMalDoran]

Hmm... that is a suitably terrifying in-universe (in-multiverse?) theory to explain changes made due to real world reasons

[@jasoncrowell8863]

This theory is absolutely wild, however...I don't see anything that disproves it.

[@randomobserver8168]

The Federation, the Borg and the Dominion are in some ways the most interesting civilizations in Trek- all the others, whatever their technologies or metaphysical powers, are generally species-centric empires or planetary and relatively isolationist societies in classic molds. Some UFP members were that before the federation and are still like them- the Vulcans for sure. The first three are universalist in scope and ambition. The UFP is the most benevolent, by far, from a human POV, but still. They all have an ideology and core principles that could in theory apply to all species, if unevenly: Peace and Diplomacy and Commerce, sort of, and Diversity within a set limit of institutions for the UFP; fusion of technology and biology in pursuit of perfection, unity, harmony, identity of species and equality for the Borg; and Peace, Order and Stability under the relatively distant and not very demanding rule of distant rulers who mainly want to be left alone and who most subjects never see. They are, like all Trek, not truly alien to human concepts, and they represent different extremes of the ideal of a universal society that encompasses all while at the same time ending war and disorder.

[@Dawt_Calm]

The introduction of the Borg queen in First Contact ruined the Borg as a conceptual species. I mean yeah it's fun that they turned them into a despotic hierarchy, but a collective where there's no stratification in society would be a much more interesting species to explore.

[@jrus690]

The original concept of the Borg was way too advanced for the Federation. They adapted too fast, their assimilation technique was learning what we do and how we do it, and they literally ignored us when we boarded their ship. We were not of consequence to them.

[@Psych1_-]

Gets defeated.... Lore Reloaded "Actually in their defeat they won."

[@lonnyyoung4285]

My thought (and I know I'm "wrong" because official canon says that all series and movies (except Kelvin) are in the same timeline) is that every series from TOS to DS9 (I put Lower Decks in here as well) are on one timeline. Everything from Enterprise on (not Lower Decks) is a divergent timeline. We know from First Contact that the Borg went back in time to just before Eart's first contact with the Vulcans. We know from Enterprise that Cochrane talked about the Borg and that Borg tech was recovered on Earth during Enterprise. None of that happened in the original timeline. I can't imagine that Starfleet could have covered up the Borg tech and escape to the point that no one knew about it later (also Q seems to imply that humanity hasn't seen the Borg before). So, First Contact spawns a different timeline where expaure to the Borg, and knowledge of the Borg changes Starfleet. Why wasn't the Romulan war fought with the ships Spock says in TOS? Because Starfleet adapted some Borg tech (maybe) and knew that they had to advance a lot faster than the thought. Technology developed a lot faster than in the original timeline because it had to to combat the Borg. Discovery can legitimately fit into this new timeline whereas there is zero chance that it fits into the original timeline. SNW also works because the tech just advanced faster (and SNW is a direct follow-on to Discovery).

[@Safety3d]

I'm not saying it's the Borg, but it's the Borg.

[@chumbucketjones9761]

It wasn't the Borg it was Alex Kurtzman.

[@TwistedSMF]

I remember in Star Trek Cannon somewhere. (I think it was ST cannon.) What even intrigued the Borg to start with was when Q transported Enterprise to the Delta Quadrant. That alone peak their interest. How did they get from the side of the galaxy to the Delta quadrant That quickly? Then they learned about the ship and Picard. Then, when Q put them back to the Alpha Quadrant just as soon as they got there, The human race, particularly Picard, became an obsession for them. That is the motivation this entire time.

[@mrbojangles8133]

though using time travel things some rogue Federation scientists accidentally created the Borg.

[@leestewart72]

The Borg wouldn't need to assimilate entire worlds, just ships and small colonies. Assimilate a ship like the Enterprise, and add the biological distinctiveness of the crew to their own, as well as the technology and vast computer records carried on the ship. The civilization in question continues to develop, and you can grab another ship in a few decades to acquire their advancements. Why harvest a species, when you can cultivate them?

[@horseradishpower9947]

You raise the perfect point, and ut is why the Borg no longer make sense. People assume the species number catalogue is all of the species assimilated, but it really is the number of species encountered. You also have to wonder how new technology encountered spreads throughout the collective, and if they systematically upgrade themselves. It would help to explain the difference between the Borg in TNG, and the Borg in First Contact onwards: they had significantly upgraded. The Borg are an interesting idea that ultimately failed.

[@andrewmalinowski6673]

If the Borg do "cultivate" other species then that would make them akin to either the 'Bio-Machines/Skyline' Aliens and the Wraith who both allowed humans to grow towards a designated level before culling the desired population. If they truly do 'cultivate' a species implanting a biomarker would allow them to 'track' the development process before they came in, which would also allow a sense of awareness as to whether they'd become better or worse than before

[@andrewmalinowski6673]

@@horseradishpower9947 I agree with both points, in Dark Frontier the Queen referred to humans as being within the 10k-range and since they hadn't been 'fully assimilated' while the Fluidic Space-dwelling Species 8472/Undyne had never been assimilated makes the encounter idea more workable. Aside from Roddenberry's original idea of being insects/insectoids the very concept has slowly become less impactful when they could be faced and defeated or knocked back by Voyager ruins the "impending threat" they presented in 'Q Who?'

[@horseradishpower9947]

@andrewmalinowski6673 The Borg are a huge missed opportunity. When you consider what the potential origins would likely be, you grasp that this would have been an original species becoming so integrated with their technology, they have lost their individuality. I always found it highly significant how the Vaadwaur instantly recognised Seven as Borg, even though she had very few of the implants still in her. It shows what the earliest iterations of the Borg were like. Again, a massively wasted opportunity and potential.

[@tarync6539]

And they will still eventually become a problem given it was only the tiny collective of Krige that attacked earth in picard s3. The Borg are still in existence but scattered and in smaller collectives with new queens so maybe theyll decide to attack earth or more likely theyll simply keep assimilating and destroying. Given the fact they can travel to sny corner of the universe they will likely assimilate new races and technology and possibly end up fighting each other. A collective that discovers the gamma quadrant would be interesting

[@rianmacdonald9454]

The thing that always got me about the Borg, is they only send 1 damn cube against Earth. We see in Voyager - their Empire is huge - If they were serious about taking Alpha quadrant - then send 100 Cubes - Starfleet would of been easily over run(Wolf 359 case and point - if 1 ship is that deadly - send 100 F it send a 1000) - mind you end of Star Trek then so hey plot armour, make them stupid enough to send only 1 ship.

[@floydrainesiv4731]

I think Lore did a video on why they only sent 1 ship at a time. They knew each time that a cube would show up, the Federation would invent a bunch of new technologies to deal with the borg so when the next cube came thru and assimilated ships they could send info on the new technology to the rest of the collective.

[@Corbomite_Meatballs]

@@floydrainesiv4731 You're also not expending too many resources against the UFP at a long distance (transwarp conduits notwithstanding)...if one cube wipes out the core of the UFP, then you can start a new unicomplex and go from there, and the Borg can believe the Federation wasn't that much of a threat in the first place to need more than one cube to take out anyway. Onto the next species. But, when they start wiping out single cube after single cube, THEN that's when you bring your full might against them because there's really tech (gold) in them thar hills that's worth taking as your own.

[@Dawt_Calm]

@rianmacdonald9454 Maybe because the Borg collective is so vast and the Federation is small beans. The Borg do a cost benefit analysis and try to estimate whether "It's worth it to have this "queen" assimilate these species. Because that's what other species are, just a resource. They allocate the Queen X amount of resources to do it. Her position in the Borg hierarchy, maybe her very existence, depends on how successful she is. Otherwise the Federation just isn't worth an investment of 100 cubes. What do you think the Borg contemplate in their collective decision making? The philosophies of collective existence? Nope. They create simulations of linear programming charts, statistical decision theories and cost benefit solutions to compute resource allocation and cost probabilities in accordance with potential return of their resource investment, just like the Federation needs to do. Every civilization exists at a practical, fundamental level outside of noble philosophies and ideologies and follows the dictates of prudence.

[@csernobillahun]

I think you are overthinking bad wrighting here

[@petefischer3820]

Interesting....

[@vnep5743]

Let's not forget that TOS tech had already been retconned in The Motion Picture. There was no reason to for Starfleet to continue using a futurized version of 1950's tech. Just as today we've modernized the franchise again. I understand and agree with the need for consistency but at some point some of this has to be questioned. This is just a pet peeve of mine with some Trek fans.

[@Blasted2Oblivion]

One thing that I wonder is where the Borg are in the Discovery future. Don't get me wrong, I don't need them to deal with the Borg directly. Just a mention like the Q continuum got.

[@davepowder4020]

"Ahym lil-cutie of Borg, resistance is doggone fut-ile, but it mahght be fun!"

[@AGaiman]

The question is whether or not a Borg victory could be distinguished from a Federation victory in the long term. Who assimilated whom? Does the question even matter?

[@theojones1089]

1:21 noooooooooo it's not individualism vs collectivism, the federation is also a collectivist society. The difference is CONSENT. The Federation accepts new members only after they petition to join. The Borg takes.

[@chrismorton8034]

I had always gone the assumption that anytime there was a “time travel” episode that everything after that was a “new” timeline/universe. It really isn’t talked about much but S.T. 4 really was the first instance of someone “polluting” the timeline and S.T. Voyager and 1st Contact really messed it up.

[@kingssman2]

It holds up. 3 timelines, prime, Kelvin, and Borg?

[@beepboop204]

i appreciate you bro, plz kno this

[@colonelquack]

TOS through VOY are prior to the Borg temporal incursion. Enterprise, Disco, and SNW show what happens after the Borg went back in time. I don't doubt Section 31 got a hold of the technology and reverse engineered it.

[@dakariszulu]

Would a Borg queen from the mirror universe be a force for good?

[@zealotmaster1]

send more than one cube for once

[@paulaburrows8660]

Resistance WAS futile!?

[@oneoftheorder]

Kinda makes me think of the defeat of the American empire that just crested its 22nd anniversary. The long game can look different from the initial result.

[@justiceag7753]

would you say that the borg are the crabs of the star trek universe (see everything evolves in to crabs for context) and if so would you say the Federation might become them in the future?

[@SweetSweetCandyBoyz]

Let us know if you ever want some upscaled DS9 / Voyager clips to use for your videos, that's kinda our channel's whole shtick...

[@mark2038]

I get uniforms and technological updates but how do you explain people like Kirk and Spock who get different bodies?

[@CaptShriver]

Correct me if I'm wrong please do. But isn't Star Trek Discovery and Star Trek strange new worlds and alternate universe or timeline one or the other. I think they came out and pretty much said that

[@LoreReloaded]

No... they went out of their way to say the opposite of that

[@CaptShriver]

@@LoreReloaded then I stand corrected. Unfortunately I must have missed her

[@CaptShriver]

@@LoreReloaded misheard

[@CaptShriver]

@@LoreReloaded then the only way the time I could have changed in my opinion is from Star Trek first contact and then from season 2 of Enterprise when they found the borg stuff in the Arctic. But thank God that discovery went way into the future so that way they're not screwing things up even more in current timeline

[@Revkor]

@@LoreReloaded and they lie. there is no way for them to be the same timeline. Discoprise is too big to be the TOS Connie

[@The_Local_Goose]

I have no reason for this but i think itd be funny if you made the thumbnail slightly stretched. No reason though, definitely not something to do with any conspiracy involving geese

[@CaptShriver]

I hope the collective is not completely destroyed if they brought out a new truck series with the new crew of the enterprise in the 2409 era

[@wedgeantillies66]

In respect of the cannon lore, the borg did change the federation and and earth fate as shown by the two different depictions in tng movies and enterprise, a mirror darkly, with it being the borg's attempted conquest of earth, and its aftermath that resulted in a peaceful first contact and earth's march towards creating the federation. Rather than becoming a terran empire as occurred in the mirror universe.

[@robertagu5533]

Only IF THIS is the reasons for the all over the place "Discovery" Series an why at times it wasn't bad BUT at some times it turned out to be God awful too leading to a "Q" attempt at fixing it or so I heard... But as far as we've mainly known depending on the episode basically the Feds have proven to be the Borg's GREATEST and MOST powerful enemy. With Janeway basically LITERALLY being ANYONEs go to in effectively fighting them an winning too. Seeing as her an Borg Queen basically became nearly on a first name basis. An Picard an Sisko even both have some expertise an experience curb stomping them too

[@mattevans4377]

The problem is, those who created STD and SNW are in denial that they might be different timelines. Everything is canon, even if it contradicts.

[@Joso997]

think that Spock black hole did more damage than Borg ever did.

[@rabureta]

Ah, ah, ah. Guess whose technology the Tal Shiar reverse-engineered and retrofitted onto a certain mining vessel? (ST:Countdown)

[@2011multisam]

So the borg managed to kill Gene Rodenberry's vision of the future?

[@ZontarDow]

Strange New Worlds doesn't really have a conflict with the original series since the two are in different universes no matter how much nuTrek fans want to pretend otherwise.

[@TheRealSpiderMew]

The Temporal Cold War Returns!!! What if Enterprise's the Man in the Shadows form the Future was Locutus?

[@trustin.p9504]

Not really sure what to think about this one. But it is a interesting thought Experiment. Cheers Lore.👍

[@Rensune]

Picard and Discovery (if accepted as Canon) prove the Borg WON.

[@dustinherk8124]

still baffled starfleet, or at least Picard, didnt reach out too the Jurati hybrid Queen from the confederation universe, once they realized the borg was the big bad, and not the changlings in s3 of Picard.

[@robertcowie1355]

Why is the show filmed in the 1960s have different looks and technology than the one in the 2020s?

[@LoreReloaded]

Given how well starwars does with it - one wonders

[@thelordofcringe]

Borg tech plateaued for some reason. They can adapt to their immediate environment but then they just keep losing. Whether STO or main canon, only like a decade after TNG the borg are already being caught up to technologically by the Alpha Quadrant. I just don't see their tech base being able to come back from another decade or two of progress from where we are now in the lore.

[@tarync6539]

The difference between sto and snw is only because of the technology they had back then and they didnt know one day we'd have touchscreens and the budget too so that's silly

[@randomobserver8168]

I don't know that I buy this- the Federation didn't seem all that changed- possibly more changed by the Dominion war than the Borg. Either way, mileage may vary, The UFP is vast, it poses some major defence problems, so it's pretty unreasonable for the Federation not to put some effort into it. Plus, Starfleet always was the military organization, no matter what Roddenberry said, even if it was not only that.

[@georgeplimpton9429]

The difference in tech is simply the 1960s vs 2020s.

[@LoreReloaded]

This is a bad argument.. starwars and other properties are able to make it work

[@georgeplimpton9429]

@@LoreReloaded Even Star Wars tech was in the 1977 and beyond. No one was doing this in the 60s BUT Star Trek. Not to mention the VERY LOW budget.

[@LordFoxxyFoxington]

Ill save you some time, modern Star Trek writers dont give a damn about canon.

[@LoreReloaded]

Wrath of khan was done by people who didn't watch trek but most of this is based on the old guard

[@everettjohnson9374]

Modern trek writers love trek, Kirtzman himself does more for trek than Roddenberry ever has. Kirtzman brought life to trek since it was a living corpse until discovery. True trek made the old dead trek more enjoyable, it makes the plots better and even shows old "fans" that thy were wrong about their ideas. You should personally write kirtzman and explain how wrong you are about modern (the only true) trek

[@Revkor]

@@LoreReloaded But that director did study TOS these guys don't they can't even get their own lore right

[@chimalez2924]

"The Federation's entire ethos begins to become one of agreement, and choosing not to follow that status quo makes you "other"." Now where does that sound familiar... The new shows much more closely reflect modern people than the idealistic future people of the original serieses.

[@worfsonofmogh1154]

The Borg and the Federation both use technological superiority to enforce diversity and racial integration. The Borg only assimilates species who they believe are worthy or who may add to their civilisation while leaving those deemed not advanced alone (like the Kazan). Starfleet has the prime directive--only interfering and convincing worlds to join when they believe they are at a sufficient stage in historical development. Both pretend to consider all points of view--Federation through its love of 'freedom' and 'debate' while the Borg literally filter the thoughts of millions into unified strategy. Humanoids cannot survive without their technological advantages and neither can Borg. The idea one would reject "paradise" or "perfection" is treated with derision or confusion.

[@timmauldin7216]

The Borg are the most incompetent villain in all of Sci-Fi.

[@julianstoeber3171]

Special effects, makeup, sound, lighting and image quality advice over time... this shouldn't have to be explained generally within cinema story telling. With that being said this is a good theory but this might be over thinking it but would still make sense if one was.

[@LoreReloaded]

It should be explained and can.. star wars was able to do it.. trek should too

[@TheNoiseySpectator]

0:29. HOLD IT!!! "What if" it 'had occurred"?! So, this is nothing that really happened? Goodbye 👋. (Loads up another page)

[@michaelcroff7097]

When are you going to dive into Roddenberry’s novelization of TMP in which he infers the Trek universe is inaccurate retellings of Starfleet history. As boring as that sounds, it makes me really want to read it

[@khartog01]

I don't like root beer.

[@Crazy-Chicken-Media]

things they should retcon, get rid of the idea of a borg queen, much more terrifying without one. all the time shenanigans, seriously it's played out. ignoring the aesthetics, accept that they were a product of their time for production. and move on. a final season of enterprise so that the whole thing wasn't just some hologram program for Riker.

[@ronaldfinkelstein6335]

I think that sn "out of universe" explanation of the change between TOS, and SNW is being overlooked. Namely the tendency of writers to be "WOKE". This philosophical viewpoint infiltrates the writing, and pushes the show towards it's more collectivist viewpoint, without the need for insidious nanites.

[@Psych1_-]

lol you have an odd way of looking at things. Interesting video's but I agree with very little.

[@MrSeanface]

Budget...

[@patricesmith2321]

NAGILUM! “Where Scilence has lease”/COSIMO from DS9/“The DOWED”! I omit the Q and the “GOTHOS”. The odium these creatures, however agendas speaks to infinite diversity in infinite combinations. Even the “ARMUS”! It all speaks to imagination and taste! You TRUMP SUPPORTER!

[@All_I_can_say_is_Wow]

This mostly just reminds me why I don't like any of the new trek. Your video is very well done but the premise is seriously flawed. The reality is the new shows look like new shows. simple as that. They weren't going to make those shows look older than TOS. Ever. They had no business making any prequel honestly.

[@invictus2578]

Since the borg was a allegory for communism. I’m gonna say I’d rather live under the Federation.

[@everettjohnson9374]

They are an allegory for the US, fit in with the collective and all will be well. Try to make new norms isn't acceptable and resistance is futile. You are to be seen and not heard

[@invictus2578]

@@everettjohnson9374 no, my friend that is a spot on allegory for communism, assimilate or be destroyed read a history book the Soviet union did that to the Russian culture and any other republic, in it’s sphere

[@rabureta]

@@invictus2578 It's neither. Communism and Fascism were the basis for the Romulans and Klingons, hence Roddenberry's insistence on a black-and-white portrayal until Worf became too popular to ignore. The Borg are unchecked consumerism. "The Borg is the ultimate user...they're simply interested in your ship, its technology. They've identified it as something they can consume."