The Rise, Fall, and Rise again of Starfleet Vessels

[@lucofparis4819]

Hard times create tight budgets. Tight budgets create good shows. Good shows create large budgets. Large budgets create hard times.

[@qdllc]

Nice.

[@MoonjumperReviews]

Well said!

[@Bitchslapper316]

Sums this up pretty well.

[@seamon9732]

LMFTFY: Large budgets creates crap shows *cough* STD *cough* Crap shows create hard times

[@lucofparis4819]

@@seamon9732 This was implied, yeah.

[@nunya3163]

I believe that Starfleet designs can best be summarize by this quote from G. Michael Hopf: “Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

[@Swiftbow]

@dennytenny To the dictator thing, sometimes, yes. But it also means Washingtons and Churchills. And "men" in this sense means mankind and encompasses men and women both.

[@johntokarz9327]

I always figured Starfleet in the TOS era was like NATO: each member maintained their own forces but with an integrated command structure and standardized equipment.

[@Corbomite_Meatballs]

In some Beta canon, member worlds handle their own planetary defenses, while Starfleet handles the exploration/science/patrol/defense for the borders, enforces "space law" and comes to the rescue on the interior when needed. Doing that you can justify having race specific ships still in operation as transports, patrol "boats", etc. while having a Starfleet build on a common spaceframe base with modular parts you can swap between vessels or out/in as new tech is developed.

[@Paleorunner2]

And like NATO only one country actually did their part.

[@22steve5150]

@@Paleorunner2 easy to say until you notice how much of the US military's tech is from European defense companies who share virtually everything with us on principle even while American contractors have to get US government approval (which is frequently denied) to share their innovations with other NATO member contractors and militaries, giving US systems an inborn advantage of having the sum of innovation from every defense contractor in every NATO country while the military forces of these other countries get a watered down version of this cooperation, and the fact that in all the years that NATO has existed, clause 5 (that calls on all members to assume a war posture and defend a fellow NATO member) has only been invoked once......to help protect America after 9/11 and participate in the war effort against those who attacked us, and of course we bungled things up so badly and led those countries into a poorly thought out double quagmire as a reward for their loyalty. Also America, who can't go five minutes without getting involved in some kind of military action halfway around the world, gets free use of hundreds of military bases, airfields, and ports via NATO member countries....facilities that we happily use to prosecute our latest foreign military ventures. Think about it, all the areas that we send troops to, that we do air strikes on....they are all in southeast asia (where "Japan and South Korea, who are considered honorary NATO members / NATO cooperating nations) provide bases, or the middle east, western eurasia, and north africa which are all in the range of the european NATO member bases we operate from. You never hear of operations in the southern half of africa or central asia or south america because we have no free foreign bases to operate from that are in reach of these areas. We get a hell of a lot out of NATO

[@name-vi6fs]

@@22steve5150 European defense contractors give virtually all of their tech to the US? Any source links for that claim?

[@davidscoltock3970]

??? name just off the top of my head: the main US light and medium machine guns are belgian. The M1 Abrams has a german gun and british armour. The US spec ops SCAR is belgian the HK416 series is german. The side arms are european, austrian I think.

[@Zakiriel]

And Lore learns to speak Klingonase to insult the Oberth in new ways.

[@beaney56]

I loved the whole cold war mutual annihilation set up between the andorions and vulcans in enterprise. I think it is season 4 when the vulcans are planning a surprise attack and shran shouts at the Vulcan ambassador "do you have any idea what will happen when we retaliate". Really pushed home the consequences of war between the 2 powers. Very much like the mutual assured destruction (MAD) philosophy between the USA and the USSR, now Russia.

[@KCKingdomCreateGreatTrekAgain]

MAD protected us then but todays enemies want mutual destruction. the fires to bring in their Mahdi.

[@archades115]

As General Chang said in Star Trek: Klingon Academy "It is their political acumen. The Federation was forged not from natural means, from conquest. But rather from... Diplomacy! ...Their political system is unwieldy..." I believe that Starfleet ships, while fundamentally human in origin, were compromises between the Vulcans, Andorians, and Tellarites in how they believed Starfleet should function. The humans doing what they do best: Compromise, and adapt to what they had to work with.

[@Bitchslapper316]

I think at some point early in the federation the Andorians and Tellarites stopped maintaining fleets and used star fleet for whenever they needed to conduct important business in space. The natural evolution of that relationship would be more shared technology and personnel. It was implied that the Vulcans started doing it during the run of star trek enterprise when T'Pol told Archer that T'Pau mothballed most of the Vulcan fleet.

[@FedoReds88]

@@Bitchslapper316 I think that they don't stop to having a fleet for they own, they need it for the common "police" affairs, if they use Starfleet for the internal affairs I would became too heavy in terms of costs

[@Bitchslapper316]

@@FedoReds88 Yeah, I think they still had fleets but not the massive independent fleets they had pre federation. I can't remember ever seeing an andorian or tellerite ship in the TNG era. The only Vulcan ships we see were small transport and science vessels but some star fleet ships had crews that were exclusively Vulcan.

[@22steve5150]

@@Bitchslapper316 still, the vast majority of what we see in TOS, TNG, DS9, and Voyager happens at the outer reaches of Fed space or outside of Fed space and rarely in and around the core systems. For all we know the main core worlds not only still have very large civilian/merchant fleets of domestic planetary design but probably also have planetary defense and system patrol / police craft of domestic origin, likely assuming the same role that a nation's coast would have in the real world.

[@Bitchslapper316]

@@22steve5150 Yeah that's true but not all of it did. There are plenty of episodes that take place in core federation space. There were at least two episodes of TNG that dealt with direct incursions of Vulcan itself. In the episode "unification" they made it clear that Vulcan had no ships to defend itself. None of the TNG era star trek shows aside from Enterprise made much mention of the Andorians or Tellerites, they may have maintained some ships but I'd assume they did what the vulcans did and relied on star fleet considering we have never seen any of them. I'm sure they all had a coast guard of sorts but no actual navies.

[@MrStockoHMK]

“The Obereth Class” *explosion* Brilliant.

[@beaney56]

It's worth mentioning that in the so called "golden age" there were no real threats to the UFP. Compare it to the US navy before December 7th 1941. The navy was powerful but obsolete. After pearl harbour the US navy mushroomed in size. It became modern again. It did this with unrivalled industrial capacity. This is like the UFP they keep an ok standing fleet but in war time they produce exactly what they need for the war they are in and they produce to an unparalleled extent.

[@cattraknoff]

But if they understood the old adage that to secure peace you must prepare for war, they would not have lost so many millions or billions of lives to the Dominion, Klingons, Borg, etc. They have the resources to maintain their utopia while also securing it. But then if the Fed was at its full potential then they would only be challenged by the full might of the Borg, and tbh that'd be a pretty cool series. In the end it might take all of the Alpha/Beta quadrant powers and even the Dominion to stop them. And by its end we see the potential for a new Federation including the Dominion (with the Jem'Hadr liberated and given longer lives and all races entering as equals with the founders) and all other major galactic races.

[@alanmike6883]

Better to have warships doubling as science ships Then Science shops doubling as warships. But the oberoth is still the best ship ever..

[@casbot71]

The Oberth is a *Section 31 plot.* It ensures stability in the Federation, by Starfleet assigning all their loose cannons and troublemakers on them. Either they get killed, or the experience breaks them enough that they become controllable afterwards. It's no accident that Riker was assigned to a Oberth that killed everyone else but the Captain. Afterwards he only _sexually harassed chairs_ and was no longer a HR complaint waiting to happen.

[@tigerbread78]

Ah yes, the Oberth. The only ship to ever be constructed out of explodium

[@alanmike6883]

Nobody suspects it. Other than ships distract the borg Obereth gets close. Self destruct warp core breach. Doubt the borg could adapt to that 😊

[@ViroVV]

The Oberth crippled Starfleet's flagship with just one volley of its Crusher payload.

[@driver224721]

The rise, fall, and rise again? Have you been watching company man here on KZbin?

[@LoreReloaded]

...maybe

[@slevinchannel7589]

@@LoreReloaded Since i saw your Vulcan Ships Video, i can't like any video anymore, cause it has no Zombie-Vulcans in it!!! Help me!

[@miconis123]

Starfleet should have had more diversity in ship design from the beginning.

[@liljenborg2517]

The problem therein has to do with the budget of the SFX department.

[@JarOfRats]

I just cannot accept Star Trek Discover (STD) as canon.

[@bl8danjil]

Neither do I. The in universe explanation for the difference in technology is silly too. And things like those emergency repair droids on the Enterprise is going to be harder to write off unlike their explanation with the holographic communicator. That repair droid technology is worth keeping for any large, resource intensive ship, even if it isn't a warship.

[@JarOfRats]

@Hawking Chair Well, at least for Star Wars, the Mandolinian... Midichlorian... Landocalrissian? The Boba Fett show... is putting the movie creators back on their heels. It IS possible to make good, new Star Wars content. Hopefully Picard will do that with Star Trek.

[@gimzod76]

@@bl8danjil Don't forget the fighters enterprise seemed to have crammed into a shuttle bay that can only fit two in the past

[@bl8danjil]

@@gimzod76 Yeah, wtf is up with that.

[@gimzod76]

@@bl8danjil People who don't care about trek being allowed to write trek

[@krblanco]

I've always used the multiple universe theory to keep my two Treks separate and me generally happy. It's not to say that you can't have Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Picard, Data and the gang in each universe but like how we've seen in the TOS mirror universe episode and later those on DS9; I've never been able to really jive with the original line of Trek seeming to have taken the turn it has under the tootalidge with JJ Abrams and now Discovery and STOL. It's helped keep my sanity knowing the Trek that I knew is still out there somewhere.

[@xXImikoXx]

I think it's reasonable to assume that going from the "ENT" and "TOS"/"DIS" eras of Trek, the Klingon Empire might have actually been marginally more advanced in technology than the fledgling "United Federation of Planets." It's pretty generally implied that the Klingons, culturally, should not yet technically be at the "Warp-Travel" stage of their civilizations, however they were invaded by the Hur'q and occupied by them for a period of their history. If the Hur'q were truly from the Gamma Quadrant, and advanced enough to reach the Beta Quadrant, they were probably markedly more-advanced than the Federation was during it's early stages. Assuming that the Klingons simply salvaged, reverse-engineered and re-purposed the technologies of the Hur'q, it makes sense that the Klingons would jump ahead several decades, if not centuries by their standards, in the realm of Space-Travel and Space-Combat. But as Starfleet developed and progressed, because of the less-evolved, and more warrior-based nature of the Klingons, and given their own relatively limited understanding of the technologies they had for all intents and purposes "stolen" from the Hur'q, Starfleet inevitably would progress beyond that level out of a necessity to keep up with the Klingons as their main threat. And by the era of TNG we can see that they've obviously far-surpassed the Klingons, because the Klingons essentially stagnated at a certain point of development. To simplify it (in classic Star Trek fashion), it would be like sitting an average 10-year-old down in a college physics class, giving him a cheat-sheet with half the answers to a single test on it, and then expecting them to pass the rest of the semester on their own, without any additional help. This is probably why they had to rely on co-opting the Federation and it's Engineers to develop their newer vessels, as you've pointed out in past videos and Starship Breakdowns. (Insert link to Starship Breakdown-Videos here): kzbin.info/www/bejne/pZzPe4GQaq2gpa8

[@larqven0192]

This makes sense to me and is essentially how I see the Klingons for their early lead and later stagnation. I would point out the ENTERPRISE courtroom episode with the Klingon lawyer revealing a not so distant past of Klingon educators and scientists. It would make sense that for many generations the Klingons were trying hard to advance with the 'cheat sheet' given to them to learn all the answers on the test and beyond. Eventually, their successes helping to lead to later stagnation; their lagging and artificially enhanced social development regressing to a more naked warrior culture and interstellar civil wars.

[@22steve5150]

That sort of implies a similar path for the Klingons as the Covenant in the Halo series.

[@shingshongshamalama]

Doesn't help that the Klingons' own cultural issues are getting in the way of their own progress.

[@xXImikoXx]

@@shingshongshamalama By a purely cultural-comparison, the Klingons are still essentially in the "Dark Ages," compared to most other Warp-Capable civilizations. They literally resemble an Empirealistic-Japan, or something equivalent to "Space Mongolians" under Genghis Kahn. If not for the Hur'q they'd probably still be another thousand-years or so from where they are now.

[@internetzenmaster8952]

6:53 And here we have visual confirmation that even attempting to take a picture of an Oberth class can cause it to explode. It's frankly a miracle that we have any photographic evidence of these "ships" (if we can call these space-faring coffins that) because of just how ludicrously fragile they are.

[@ambarcraft4476]

6:54 I like how you add in klingon words now

[@zealotmaster1]

Delenn : Before the war, Dukhat wanted to know more about your people, so I began studying your history. I came to the conclusion that of all the races we had encountered, humans were the most dangerous. Because humans form communities. And from that diversity comes a strength that no single race can withstand

[@aracuron9956]

Wrong universe, correct wisdom. One of Delenns best lines... Well she had many good ones, but I do remember this one.

[@krblanco]

Ha! I referenced this is a post that I JUST made!

[@pheotonia]

@Inareth A quote from the movie "10 Things I Hate About You".

[@simonwillis1529]

Just a little bit of what made b5 Nice

[@dariusgreysun]

'Cept diversity is NOT our strength...lol

[@joeclerkin2653]

Starfleet should have done a clean sweep of older classes of starships after the Dominion War. Classes like the Excelsior, Miranda, Oberth and all the lighter classes should have been decommissioned ASAP, then replaced with more modern ships (especially the Akira!).

[@nunya3163]

The Excelsior was still one of the better ships in the fleet at the end of the Dominion war, as it was apparently very readily upgraded to the latest weapons technology.

[@jasonsylvander3089]

@@nunya3163 would have loved to seen the upgraded Lakota in another war scene

[@TheddunTOSS]

Excelsior did just fine. We do not know how much budget control Starfleet has.

[@smileygabe22]

Nice video, hate the mention of Discovery

[@blackcorp0001]

Great channel ! All the best for 2020 !

[@shingshongshamalama]

It's nice to see Starfleet's revisions of an "all-purpose" workhorse ship finally create a proper general contact vessel that can do everything pretty well while easily being integrated into a broader force of more specialized yet adaptable vehicles. The Sovereign truly is Starfleet's GCV prototype.

[@digitalis2977]

Hard Times make Strong Men. Strong Men make Easy Times. Easy Times make Weak Men. Weak Men think the Oberth Class is a good idea...

[@fatrobin72]

Note to self... See how far one could get with just a oberth class on star trek online... Before it blows up

[@krblanco]

@@fatrobin72 Five minutes, if you're lucky.

[@randms2fake]

"Amateurs talk about tactics, but professionals study logistics." Oberth is a ship of logistics doing transport, supply and data gathering. Wars aren't only won by what's the best but what's cheap yet efficient.

[@digitalis2977]

@@randms2fake Efficient? A Pakled freighter is more efficient in every way. It can carry more, it has more firepower, it's navigational deflector can actually stave off a paperclip at one-quarter impulse...

[@randms2fake]

@@digitalis2977 Pakled? Seriously? In any case I'm talking about Federation ships.

[@enterprise-h312]

7:53 Did you catch that the Galaxy-class can blow up an iron-based moon or a moon with a “ferrous crystalline structure”? (TNG: Deja Q) That ship was built in a time of peace when there were no Romulans to worry about. People seem to forget that Gene Roddenberry wrote "The Cage". The very episode which established that the NCC-1701 had the firepower to destroy a continent.

[@jano.730]

great video lore! please more of this

[@BNuts]

The Odyssey-class would make an interesting subject of study, as it appears to be nothing less than a larger, more beefed-up version of the Sovereign-class with a support vessel added to its aft section due to its increased size. It would also be an interesting subject of study because of the discourse that is now likely to rise over when it came into service: At the end of Picard's career as the _USS Verity_ or in 2410 as _USS Enterprise-F_ ? Also, the Universe-class that _Enterprise-J_ belongs to would be interesting, provided there is more information to find about it: all we know from its appearance in _ENT_ is that it is one of the largest ships Starfleet has ever built. Its design seems to indicate the integration of alien technology as well. And it's large and so unwieldy that even automatically scaled down in one of _STO_ 's FTOs it still has issues turning in time. The Universe-class starship would seem to be a prime example of a ship developed in luxury. But the Voth still take the prize for 'largest ships constructed' with their Fortress-class ship (the one you fly into in that mission).

[@charleskinsey2077]

Just curious what about the entire show of enterprise and the first episode with section 31 that says that they were part of the original starfleet charter? I'm sorry I would say that Starfleet was founded by the UEG.

[@LoreReloaded]

Under the federation charter founded by tellarite, Andoria, earth, and vulcan.. starfleet was created with the commission of discovering new worlds

[@yodaslovetoy]

@@LoreReloaded and to install gelato machines (section 32)

[@nunya3163]

It would seem that when founded, the Federation chose to absorb many Human designs and organizations. After all the UEG Starfleet was also based in San Fran. I suspect that this is because of the lingering animosity between Vulcans, Andorians, etc. So choosing human looking designs, and organizations, such as Starfleet as the core of the fleet was acceptable to all.

[@JS-rg8uh]

Yt: how many ads? Lore reloaded: Yes

[@dragonknightleader1]

I use adblock.

[@gameoverinsertcointocontin8102]

I think the design of the early TNG era was very unbalanced. There had been huge leaps in weapons technology resulting in more powerful phaser emitters compard to the earlier eras of the Enterprise B and C. But defensive technologies had not quite caught up yet. This made even potential battleships like the Galaxy class glass cannons. Starfleet also relied too much on their shield technology and thought it would be more then enough to keep the ship, crew and civilians aboard safe. One of the most costly lessons, was the loss of the Enterprise-D.

[@shingshongshamalama]

LR: "What's up Loremasters" My subwoofers: *vibrating furiously*

[@blackdog6969]

I’ve seen a few comments about discovery and theyre negative but what you explained about how a lot of the tech was discarded for various reasons makes a lot of sense and gives me a bit more respect for that series

[@teaser6089]

More technical talk please :D And I don't believe people should see Discovery as Alpha lore, as Discovery breaks continuity on so many levels

[@Blasted2Oblivion]

Not to be "that guy" but if you are going to say that discovery isn't part of canon because it is inconsistent then all but a handful of TOS episodes would be the same. Star Trek has been remarkably inconsistent pretty much from the beginning.

[@teaser6089]

@@Blasted2Oblivion yeah but Discovery breaks pre existant lore from earlier shows. Whilst TOS was the first show with a much lower budget so they get a pass

[@Blasted2Oblivion]

@@teaser6089 Okay but what about the rest? TNG, VOY, DS9, and ENT all carry inconsistencies. Some bigger than others but still. Complaining about Star Trek inconsistencies is like complaining about getting wet in a pool. If you don't want to get wet, don't swim.

[@casbot71]

A possible explanation for using human ships (besides they just lucked out with a good design) is that human ships were easy to upgrade. Think about it, humans knew they were less advanced and were playing catch up, so they designed their ships to be modular and easily upgraded, on the expectation that they would be getting far more advanced technology *within the ships service life.* Either as "gifts" from the Vulcans or more likely reverse engineering stuff they find or even just because they know it exits so they have a concept to already work on … [it's easier to build you first jet engine when other nations already have them flying, compared to being the one that first builds one and has to discover _how!_ to do it]. A Vulcan, Andorian or whatever ship is designed and built with refined state of the art technology of the species, with the assumption that it will only be getting upgrades from technologies that are the product of original research over time, not from copying someone else's homework. So upgrading one may require complete disassembly since the ship is optimised, while a Starfleet design is modular and might even have empty space and connections specifically for new components to be fitted in without hassle. That could also explain why Starfleet calls major overhauls of ships a *_"minor refit",_* sticking in new engines and weapons could be plug and play, after all look how easily Starfleet ships can install completely alien tech or develop and install a new drive system while in field (Voyager). A Vulcan Tellerite ect ship built the same time as the Miranda or Excelsior may be only capable of slight improvements without completely rebuilding it, while the Starfleet ships … The other Federation races were progressing slowly and their design philosophy may have reflected that. In the cancelled season of Enterprise, the NX was going to get a secondary hull fitted with Andorian technology (and Shran as advisor to counterbalance T'Pol's influence) and other races were going to plug in their appropriate tech to the ships. And by the time they started producing full Federation ships everyone was used to sticking their components into a human design - try sticking Andorian weapons in a Vulcan ship, integrating the connections would be a pain. It also allowed economy of scale for your most advanced tech from each race. TL:DR Other races built laptops that were difficult to upgrade, humans built desktops that you could just stick any components in… after 10 years of upgrades, which is a better computer?

[@larqven0192]

I like this idea for the technical reasons. It seems to me that humans in the early days were allowed to head up Star Fleet for their neutrality, but also in that in the early days, humans and Star Fleet were not advanced enough to be a serious threat to the other member worlds.

[@RantzCore]

I would like to hear about all the different shipyards in the Federation and what major designs got built where?

[@jamesfry8983]

I do remember those episodes you mentioned they where good ones

[@UncleMikeDrop]

Just imagine how many problems they could have avoided by continuing to research warships in earnest. They could still make science vessels but warships have their uses.

[@pheotonia]

What about the Velociraptor of the fleet, the Prometheus Class. Because she hunts in packs of three! MVA to save the day!

[@UncleMikeDrop]

@@pheotonia They likely would've had something like that far sooner had they never demilitarized.

[@casbot71]

The basic concept of the Defiant class is a game changer, it's a *Federation Bird of Prey.* It only needs 40 crew and can be built at smaller shipyards, mass producing something like that and using it as a patrol craft would make the Federation a very tough adversary. And it would prevent local shenanigans and border incursions, since a few would always be nearby to punish raiders and such. And they can back up/escort the big multirole _do everything_ captial ships if trouble is likely.

[@icecold9511]

@@UncleMikeDrop There was a decided liberal view created by good times. Star Fleet hated identifying themselves as military, when it is clear that whatever else they are, they were the military. Right down to having an internal justice system of it's own with courts MATRIAL. They had no respect for the military role.

[@UncleMikeDrop]

@@icecold9511 True enough. Perhaps instead of demilitarizing, the Federation should have reinstituted MACO to serve as their military and simply repurposed Starfleet for service in S.T.E.M. and diplomacy. Contrary to what many people think, a strong military can not only win wars, but prevent them as well. Starfleet also has no place enforcing the law. That task should be left to Federation Security and individual member governments.

[@tarawallis9823]

I would actually like to see a video on currency in star trek, how it has been claimed that money obsolete, yet everyone from star trek 3 right to ‘picard’ still seem to need and utilise it.

[@captainrgd1565]

Who made Star Trek "worst" JJ Abraham's, Bryan Fuller (If he stayed on) or Alex Kutzman or would that still make no one will ever be happy and just cancel the whole damn franchise series?

[@jamiecampbell8855]

The defiant class always seemed a little like DS9's response ro B5's white stars. Fast, nimble, maneuverable and packing a punch.

[@NihilusShadow]

Doesn't the Defiant pre-date the White Stars? If I'm not mistaken, the first appearance of the White Star was in the episode "Matters of Honor" which originally aired on 6 November 1995. The Defiant first appeared on DS9 in "The Search Part 1" which aired 26 September 1994.

[@MrDiplomatSwag]

I don’t understand how the federation was so behind the dominion so many races contributing their technologies and they had to get more powers to help them.

[@calvinskye]

Two possible reasons. First is that the Dominion is much, much bigger than the Federation. The second is while the Dominion is more advanced in technology related to warfare, the Federation beats them in 'non-combat' tech.

[@larqven0192]

I would also add that that the Dominion is probably much, much older than the Federation. The Federation is only 200 and change years old; it sprang from an unremarkable assemblage of races where the Vulcans were the leaders and were only a regional power at best. All ancient civilizations of the region had failed and died. The Dominion is both old and might have been the recipient of ancient civilizations in the gamma quadrant, probably absorbing some of them. They are growing into a galactic empire; the Federation are still neophytes compared to that, and are out of their 'weight class' in terms of population and controlled systems.

[@Shapes_Quality_Control]

“It is likely that the Vulcans were the most powerful species in the alpha quadrant at that time.” *laughs in Klingonese*

[@larqven0192]

This. The Vulcans were doubtlessly the most important component of the early Federation, humans being the 'eager wannabes who could', Romulans being a 'trial run' for the confederation and putting humans to the test; but the Klingons being the stick that impelled everyone to-- cling together.

[@Bitchslapper316]

The Vulcans were absolutely the most powerful military force in the alpha quadrant, at least until T'Pau mothballed almost the entire fleet.

[@22steve5150]

Klingons and Romulans are Beta quadrant powers.

[@Bitchslapper316]

@@22steve5150 They are still considered alpha quadrant powers. My point was the Vulcans were the strongest at the time including the Romulans and Klingons. It was implied several times throughout the run of STE. That is until they mothballed the bulk of their fleet.

[@jamescarroll2589]

I love your videos and the work you do. I love gelato as well. But i digress. One thing i want to point out is that according to Enterprise, Starfleet already existed prior to the Coalition of planets. It was then known as the Earth Starfleet. The command structure for Earth's fledgling fleet.

[@Jawmax]

My own theory for the Oberth class. They were used because resource wise they cheap and easy to build thus you more ship out more quickly.

[@dragonknightleader1]

The Oberth and (Nova-class) serves as a coastal patrol boat. We use them for naval border defense and anti-smuggling operations. It's not exactly meant for ship-to-ship engagements.

[@nicholasgreenberg4605]

Hey Lore, May I ask a question? Which era of Starfleet ships do you prefer?

[@LoreReloaded]

Ds9..akira is best

[@nicholasgreenberg4605]

@@LoreReloaded I prefer the Connie and Sovereign myself. I understand why you picked Akira, good ship.

[@MarvelX42]

Yes, more of this please.

[@denbaker7358]

Would be able to do a video on the cooperative please?

[@Uchilsson]

That why Excelsior class heavy cruiser was used so long and get many upgreads.

[@secretyoutubers5510]

Love the sarcasm. Great work Don't agree with some of what you put forward. But you have debated it well. I enjoyed the video.

[@smh4683]

A small flaw in you analysis; Starfleet pre-dates the Federation. This was vaguely indicated in TOS ; Earth-Romulan War, and firmly established in ENT.

[@ianwright4255]

Starfleet was created decades before the Federation. Starfleet is the Earth based exploration organization, mostly humans. Aliens from Federation planets may join Starfleet as humans may join other exploration organizations like the Vulcan Science Academy. Using Discovery and the online games as a canon source is pretty stupid and inaccurate

[@SC-mq1eh]

@@ianwright4255 lol when has trek canon been "accurate" to begin with?

[@leejohnstone3051]

How about doing a video on Commander Shelby...the so called expert on the Borg. Because from watching Best of both Worlds she's no expert on the Borg

[@nunya3163]

It is interesting that Star Fleet's 'expert' was someone that had had zero interaction and exposure to the Borg, and could only learn from officer reports from when Q caused the Enterprise to meet them. How could she possibly know any more than the officers of the Enterprise? I could see her being the expert in the R&D that the Federation was doing to prepare, but that is all.

[@aracuron9956]

@@nunya3163 she Studie all reports from all contact, so shes an expert while a Field officer even if he survived one, is a Field officer, dont maybe know all data and is also emotionally affected. Thats most likely how big buerocracys would see it. So yes, by desicion of Admiral someone from the administration staff of the Research Division, shes the biggest expert. All laughter can be sent via subspace com to stsrfleet command Research Division, Departement 34c, Office of Admiral someone.

[@casbot71]

They really should've got a El-Aurian advisor, or at least debriefed every El-Aurian refugee. And why didn't the El-Aurians give Starfleet the heads up? If the Borg had succeeded in assimilating Earth in The Best of Both Worlds, there would be a lot of recriminations among the surviving El-Aurian refugees over not telling Starfleet about the Borg. (El-Aurian #1) "I told you we should have given them the heads up, they might have been ready to fight by now." (#2)"Are you kidding, they would have immediately sent ships to try to open diplomatic negotiations" (#1)"You were just pissed because they failed to save your siblings during the Nexus rescue" (#2)"Well, they sent a half completed ship to save us, we lost most of our fellow survivors, and it's not like we have a high birthrate." (#1)"So you voted not to warn them about the greatest threat in the galaxy out of spite?" (#2)"Look, let's just all pile on a long range Federation ship and head to another quadrant, I saw the design of the perfect ship for it, Intrepid class." (#3)"They haven't built it yet, Soran says he has a escape plan, and some pull with the Klingons, maybe we should try him." (Everybody else) "NO !" (#1) "Doran Rytaal is First officer of an Excelsior class ship, he's been on that ship for over 50 years and got the position by seniority. And the Captain was on leave on Earth. So let's hit him up for a lift out of dodge, the ship's reliable." (#3) "Fine, I'll round everybody up." (#2 nods) (#1) "But this time we tell everyone we meet about the Borg, I even made a 3D slide show." (The others groan, not another slide show). ……

[@DannyBeans]

She may also have studied the remains of the colonies that were destroyed along the Neutral Zone. They made the connection all the way back in "Q Who," so she had some time. Heck, she might have been investigating them before they even knew about the Borg, and became the de facto expert in light of that.

[@Bitchslapper316]

As far as experts go they probably didn't have anyone better other than Picard and Data.

[@TheZamaron]

I like the idea that the reason Starfleet ships look like the Earth ships from ENT, or why Earth is the center of the Federation, is because let's face it, of the 4 founding members of the Coalition and later Federation, the Tellarites, Humans, Vulcans, and Andorions. Humanity was the only one of the 3 that didn't truly take a side when the other 3 squabbled, despite Earth's alliance with Vulcan, so needed a central planet to govern from, who better then the species that was the most dedicated to cooperation. Thus Earth became the capital planet and Earth style ships were made the standard of Starfleet, the design being changed over time, but still keeping the general noticeable details.

[@dhyde2025]

Hey man. I like this video. Good job.

[@christenorio9555]

I want to see Discovery season 3 of the federation downfall of the reaction of the Michael burnam & Crew with interweaving Picard series!

[@yoshiforpm]

Do the Starfleet Corps of Engineers design and build starships? I’d think that they’d hollow out asteroids and the like, whereas ships would be designed by some other entity like the Design Bureau.

[@teaser6089]

The USS Enterprise NCC 1701-D has fought a couple of warbirds in TNG, I didn't see it get destroyed now did we?

[@pierce9128]

Micah van Everdingen not sure they ever really fought outright. It was a poker game as picard called it. Alot of sticking the chest out and blowing hot air on both sides. Nwver a full battle, just a few shots if any

[@teaser6089]

@@pierce9128 That is true, however I don't think one ancient Bird of pray, with that something from the NX-01 Enterprise era could be a match for the USS Enterprice NCC-1701-D Now would it?

[@lazyboyghrol]

I never realized that the presidential office in Star Trek VI is just Ten Forward with curtains before.

[@lazyboyghrol]

@3:54

[@wouldntyouliketoknow9455]

Here's my question: What advantage, if any, did humans have in terms of ship tech or tech in general?

[@BNuts]

None. United Earth's tech was decades, if not centuries, behind those of the Vulcans and Andorians, who overpowered them to a laughable extent. Nor were their insults up to the standards of Tellarite diplomacy. The Vulcans even purposely hid useful technology from the humans rather than sharing it with them and allowing them to advance at an accelerated rate. Remember: the marker for whether or not the Prime Directive applies to a civilization, and whether or not a polity can join the United Federation of Planets is achieving a warp drive. That's it. What United Earth brought to the table was its spirit, and the ability to bring disparate and warring races together in a united effort: Humans were the glue of the Federation.

[@roguerifter9724]

In one of the Enterprise novels Dax's current host, who was a starship engineer first loaned to Starfleet to aid an anti-Romulan research project during the war and briefly served as chief engineer on a Federation starship after the war, is considering the issue of Starfleet's future ship designs. I don't remember them but he lists why he considers human style hull designs to suit Starfleet's purposes as an exploration focused fleet better then the hull styles of the other members.

[@krim7]

There was a theory on another channel that stated the reason UE Starfleet was selected as the baseline for the Fed Starfleet was because the Coalition of Planets took human ship designs and mass produced them to help Earth defeat the Romulans during the Earth-Romulan War. So basically the reason Starfleet seems so human in design is because Tellar Prime, Andoria and Vulcan had already retooled their industrial output to pump out human-designed ships. Since the Federation was founded shortly after the E-R War, it only made sense to keep the industrial infrustructure and common design language intact. If not for this, it could have taken decades, maybe even a century, for the Federation to combine all its disparate engineering, ship-design, unique systems, industrial output, & etc. into a single cohesive whole.

[@krblanco]

Within the context of the show, you could figure that each race - Vulcans, Andorians, Telarites and whoever else - that they've been together in space a long time. Each has their rivalries, fueds, if not have had actual conflicts perhaps wars with each other. Humanity is comparatively young and no one seems to have had any time to have any of these issues with the humans which I think gave humanity its initial in. Gave humanity its opportunity to coax each to the barganing table and create the Federation as each of the aforementioned races were content to work on their own but would've also been at greater risk because they were alone and not together as one larger power. Humans created the Federation perhaps more than any one race and are in my opinion the glue that hold it together. Ironically in B5 there's a scene in which Delene tells Captain Sheridan about how fortunate they should feel for humanity. That humanity has created a place like B5 (and I'm sure the Babylon stations before it) for all races to use. If any one race had otherwise created a station of their own, then it would likely have been used solely by that race and others turned away. That stuck with me...

[@DavidSiebert]

You have a few real-world historical parallels that come to mind like the USS Texas She was launched in 1912 and served until the end of WWII. Of course, you can also see bring up the Iowa class battleships which served something like 60 years and some people want to bring those back. Another parallel this time of older tech beating newer tech would be the Panther/Tiger vs the M4 Sherman in WWII. The German tanks had better armor and guns but the US tanks could maneuver better, were more reliable, and far more plentiful.

[@seekertwo1]

In additon to a coalition-building move, I wonder if the choice of using Earth-designed starships was because the Vulcan and Andorian designs had reached an evolutionary standstill. Also, like the Mon Cala ships in SW, I wonder if the Vulcan and Andorian ships were designed to only meet the needs of each individual species and not be adaptable to a multi-species crew complement. Starfleet hulls were just more adaptable to non-Earth tech and crews and allowed for greater development. This also might explain why Utopia Planetia ended up being the main Federation shipyard instead of the more established yards of Andoria or Vulcan....though I would like to see what ships come out of those yards.

[@leejohnstone3051]

Shelby's expertise comes from reading Captain Picard's logs on the Enterprise's first encounter with the Borg in Q-Who. I could read and study the logs wouldn't mean I'm a expert on the Borg

[@Tuning3434]

+Lee Johnstone If you combine it with thoroughly analyzing all the data collected by the Enterprise, and possible other sources, speculation and simulation, you definitely can be more specialized (and considered to have more expert knowledge) on the borg. Also makes a lot of sense to send such a particular person to the USS Enterprise if it is expected this ship will engage or support the engagement with new Borg contacts. Unfortunately, practice makes perfect and Shelby's expertise proved to be less relevant when put into the practical environment.

[@nunya3163]

I suspect that her expertise was more centered on the R&D work that the Federation was conducting, based upon those logs, and sensor data from the Enterprise.

[@rageagainstthefilm624]

Seems to m humanity got such high accolades/clout during the formation on the Coalition because of not only their tenacity in battle when needed but also their skills at diplomacy. Also they were not above, if sometimes uneager, to ask/receive or give help to and from races that would ultimately join them.

[@tigerbread78]

Sort of misrepresented what happened to the Enterprise D in Generations, didn't'cha?

[@LoreReloaded]

Newp

[@jimmangefrida5207]

@@LoreReloaded yeah actually you did. If memory serves, the klingons were able to render the enterprise's shields effectively useless by figuring out the shield frequency. I don't care what ship we are talking about in the star trek universe, without shields it is a sitting duck.

[@thuzan117]

7:00 if you look *really* hard during the battle against the sphere builders that Daniels shows archer, several hundred years into the future, they say you can see an Oberth getting ganked...

[@WiglyWorm]

@3:15 hey lower decks has confirmed those vulcan designed ships still exist!

[@PhilFantastico87]

How do you factor in one-man fighter crafts? As far as I know, they're only ever seen on-screen in the big battles of DS9, but we have to assume that their being there meant they were solid and plentiful enough, and had enough skilled pilots, to represent a fairly substantial arm of the military.

[@tompatterson4316]

TOS may have actually given a reason why the Federation used human designs. When Kirk met Cochraine we learn that his design for star ships was in some way revolutionary, but we're not told what that was. Also, Andorian & Human ship designs are similar 2 nacelles connected to a center section.

[@FedoReds88]

Well, I think that the technology in the Federation compete in a common market, so Starfleet can commit various pieces of a ship to the various company based on the various planets... I suppose that there is some "multistellar" company similar to our multinationals...

[@SC-mq1eh]

starfleet is the US navy/UN peacekeeper force to the UN - the federation is the 23rd century UN that has more powers to make central decisions and fleet deployment - each member world obvy still have their own (semi)autonomous military fleets and "proto"starfleet helped form the federation, not vice versa

[@krblanco]

Thinking about the birth of the Federation and for this post's sake Starfleet, you could wager that various fueds, rivalries and such are still being held between the various races. Just because you agree to a pact doesn't mean you necessarily let your animosity towards another slide the next day or soon after. If the Federation hadn't been formed soon after and seemingly led by humanity I'm sure the fueds and rivalries among the initial members would've torn apart any fledgling Federation. Now that I am thinking about it I can see humans running around for a while putting out the fires so to sake. Starfleet probably got birthed and their ships took on human forms of what human tech was at the time for a space going vessel for no other reason then one race would refuse to support the vessel/ship of another (perhaps a rival) becoming the chosen vessel of the then young Starfleet. I mean surly one race would not want a rivals to go on to become the new vessel of Starfleet while their own basically became lowly and colonial defense. That rivalry, even as it may have begun to ebb, could've predicated as a race we DON'T want you in our ships and we DON'T want you perhaps snooping around and we DONT want you to know what else we're perhaps working on. So we'll throw in some tech to what these humans are working on to keep others at arms reach, we'll go with this human design which seems good enough. Then with age and time the human design for Starfleet vessels just stuck. There's many different ways to design a car. But over age and time the idea of four wheels with engine in the front and trunk in the rear has just stuck.

[@christenorio9555]

What if the defiant-class was Vulcan and andorian?

[@youdontknow7190]

Love watching this chancel

[@zodden01]

The greatest enemy of Starfleet is Alex Kurtzman.

[@diosoth]

I don't think Discovery should count as canon when A) Orci & Kurtzman both admit they have watched little of Star Trek & generally hate the franchise, B)it can't make up its mind if it's Roddenberry or Abrams timeline canon or C)is so full of retcons & mistakes it couldn't possibly be canon

[@tach5884]

@Hawking Chair How dare you sir. STD is not only canon it's what actually happens in dimension C-137.

[@maxmatthews2463]

"IT DOESN'T FIT INTO CANON, HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO WIN TRIVIAL PURSUIT NOW, YOU NAZIS‽‽‽‽" - Lore Reloaded.... probably.

[@LoreReloaded]

Nailed it

[@giannis_cy]

7:54 you dismissed that the klingons got their shield frequency

[@LoreReloaded]

I didnt.. i even do an entire video on it. Also their armor sucks and remodulation

[@admiralsquatbar127]

@@LoreReloaded The armour on a Galaxy class does appear a bit crappy. If a ship as small as the Tantative IV can take a direct hit from a Star Destroyer, and still maintain hull integrity, then a ship of the line such a Galaxy class should be able to do the same. Even in it's own universe, both the JJ and Prime, the Constitution takes an absolute pasting and just keeps going.

[@ZontarDow]

I think the reason that the Federation Starfleet is seen as being the United Earth Starfleet stems from the fact that it appears on the surface to be the successor, however I think the reason the United Earth Starfleet had its HQ and other facilities used by the Federation Starfleet stems from the fact that all four founding races of the Federation would have contributed to it, and for political (Humans where responsible for the formation of the Federation and seen as neutral towards others) and pragmatic reasons (geographically more centred within Federation space and having a more neutral climate relative to the other founding members) the United Earth Starfleet's facilities around San Francisco where selected to be the ones used as the main hub of administration. Beta Canon also confirms that the Federation Starfleet did amalgamate the assets of the United Earth Starfleet, Vulcan Science Council and the Andorean Imperial Defence Force, and the novelisation of Star Trek 6 also states that after retirement the USS Enterprise A was used by a Planetary Defence Force after being retired from the Federation Starfleet.

[@nick5661]

It makes the most sense that humans were chosen to sort of lead the federation for those reasons that you said bringing peace. I wonder if that’s what we would have seen if Enterprise continued.

[@thallus23]

Necessity is the Mother of Invention! Starfleet construction and design were dependent on current threats or lack thereof. Who needs an apartment in space when staring a Borg cube?

[@Jopsyduck]

The reason an "ancient" bird-of-prey was able to defeat a galaxy class was because they had the shield modulation frequency of the ship. Although a torpedo shouldn't be able to be modulated to match the frequency.

[@LoreReloaded]

And the armor couldnt with stand it? Think god shops today can take hits from canon balls..also remodulation

[@Jeremyhughes86]

Vulcan and Andoria are Beta Quadrant worlds. now, as for the two worlds in sector 001 (Earth and Vulcan) only one could claim a presence in the Alpha Quadrant and that is Earth, because Sol System straddles the border of the two quadrants.

[@hiddentrailvideo6992]

Kinda surprised the Constitution Class name hasn’t been retconned for not being PC.

[@RahhmiPoofs]

Why wouldn't the Romulans want to expand? It only makes sense..... after all... We need breathing room!

[@SalinaMoonfall]

Something I'd like to see if it already hasn't already been touched on under a different name is the mind set or political camp of what you could call peace hawks or peaceful conservatives (best names I could come up with). Basically from what hints and clues and interactions we see in the way starfleet carries out it's missions and the various personalities and their opinions as well as the reflection on the designs of the various eras it feels like there is a political camp within the federation/starfleet so committed to having peace that they resemble a conservative ideology (while of course being the inverse of most modern and recent conservative movements). Not to get too political (too late) but a lot of the hallmarks of a radical conservative view are there such as often ignoring facts in favor of a view or path that fits their ingrained belief, steps outside the belief system being met with either push back to outright hostility, and often an attempt to wind back the clock such as starfleets repeated demilitarization despite ongoing threats. This isn't to say the more liberal side of the coin here is any better, since with this model in mind the more overt examples of those wanting a furtherance of arms or force to answer the obvious threats are often little better given the radical actions several examples take in pursuit of it.

[@hogfry]

I think the reason starfleet ships were using terran design language was simple. As the newest and bluntly weakest race they were not seen as threatening. The Vulcans, Andorians, and Telerites all had huge established militaries. Diplomatically speaking the federation wouldn't risk seeming expansionary if the ships weren't primarily those of the 3 super powers.

[@Jarsia]

I'm gonna disagree with you on the point that none of the other alpha quadrant powers could match the 3 mains (klingon, romulan, fed). Going by just the original series, the first federation seemed, while perhaps smaller in territory, VASTLY superior in technology to any of those powers. The Enterprise struggled to overcome even a tiny auxiliary craft from the Fesarius. Still, I too have long held the theory that UE designs were chosen as the mainstays for starfleet for the same reason that the federation presidents office and starfleet HQ are on earth, that being that humans are the most neutral of the founding members and the only option the other 3 races could all agree to. I believe personally that, going by appearance if nothing else, andorians provided shields and phasers/torpedoes(seemingly used through the TOS era until the human designs caught up technologically), while vulcans provided impulse engines(ENT vulcan impulse looks almost identical to later starfleet designs, compared to the NX's blue impulse engines), and tractor beams(again, the vulcan tractor in Breaking the Ice looked almost identical to those seen in later star trek, as opposed to the andorian's green, more focused tractor beam in Proving Ground). Hard to say what the tellarites contributed technologically, but probably improvements "under the hood". All of this incorporated into hulls of earth design, giving each species imput into starfleet design.

[@kevinjasper6620]

I believe a strong military is absolutely necessary. Starfleet made (at least) two major mistakes, 1) demilitarization of Starfleet in the negations with the Klingon Empire after Praxis 2) the treaty of Algeron.

[@YourArmsGone]

Why do we rarely see andorians and telurians crewing federation ships?

[@josecarrales2842]

I think humans are the focus, and wait for it, because we are seeing the story from the human point of view. The Federation, also, is made up of member worlds who likely have their own spheres of influence. The Vulcan crewed ship USS Intrepid, for example, would likely be so due to that idea.

[@donaldnevgonhapniv3084]

No there I have to disagree I would say it's a largely an issue of logistics Vulcan is a hot planet And or Is a cold onegive me the time species specific Cruz would have been the more logical course to pursue and using diplomatic relations it's still a coordinated fleet but forming into a coherent one

[@donaldnevgonhapniv3084]

In voice text on this thing sucks

[@pricelessppp]

Good video! I think they should’ve made more ships for war due to the time period In newer series hopefully they’d have something in the newer/cooler for war.

[@stephenteng6239]

Starfleet has so many humans because it is actually a fictional organization made for a human TV show with a limited budget...

[@LoreReloaded]

.... so you dont get the point of the channel..how sad

[@SciFiNation]

@Lore Reloaded That Bird Of Prey that destroyed the Enterprise-D had the Ent. D's shield modulation frequency. It didn't just warp in and pounce on it for a one shot kill because the Galaxy class was a glass cannon or the B'Rel class BoP was superior bud.

[@LoreReloaded]

Wow 100 years old weapons..sucky armor..also remodulation

[@lockjaw5161]

so why did they drop united space probe agency

[@theindooroutdoorsman]

KZbin better not demonetize this video for any reason. I just had a Hornady ad, showed a gun no less than four times too.

[@BrickIntyre]

Question: Are you saying the Federation created Starfleet, or that they absorbed Starfleet? The reason I ask is because in "Star Trek: Enterprise" we see Starfleet existing before the formation of the Federation. Admittedly I don't delve into the lore of Star Trek more than just watching the shows, I get the deep stuff from you. I always thought Starfleet was formed by the Earth government after the development of warp drive; Earth's way of becoming relevant on the galactic scale. But you're saying that Starfleet was formed by the Coalition (later the Federation)?

[@LoreReloaded]

Both. Starfleet was originally from the ueg..as every other military..the federation created an entity with the same name and absorbed them all

[@BrickIntyre]

@@LoreReloaded Got it!

[@bisonhawk1]

Sanchez I want you to create a ship that accurately represents humanity and then I want to put a bunch of blue skins in green skins on it, and make sure it has a tellarite captain!!!

[@casbot71]

Originally post Nemesis, they were planning on a *new Starfleet ship paradigm,* extrapolating from the _Defiant_ and the anti Borg ships debuted in _First Contact._ They were going to have internal Bridges and warp nacelles integrated into the hull instead of on pylons as standard. The ships were going to be more compact and muscular, instead of the delicate spindly structures that are the hallmark of Starfleet. Basically get rid of the fan bugbears about Starfleet ships. The overwhelming positive feedback of the Defiant design and just the internal logic of Starfleet making tougher ships inspired this concept. But Nemesis died at the box office due to a indifferent director and they went down the prequel route, leaving ship design in the hands of a video game STO. C'mon, we all want to see a full sized capital ship (Nebula sized?) based on the Defiant with cloaking technology built in from conception.

[@NashmanNash]

3:14...Is it just me or did the Enterprise have to ram the Excelsior to be in THAT position?

[@gregjones9151]

Starfleet was NOT formed by UFP, but United Earth. ST: Enterprise referenced Starfleet on many occasions as the entity they work for (meaning before the formation of the Federation). Just watch the last scene of Episode 2 of Season 1

[@LoreReloaded]

Yea, there is an evolution tot he Klingon Empire here taht is nice..

[@Paleorunner2]

I think the ships used an earth based design because of Zefran Cochran's solution to creating the warp field. If Vulcans had warp drive for 1800 years before humanity why was the first chapter of warp field mechanics titled Zefran Cochran? (La Forge, First Contact). Also why did it take Vulcans almost 2000 years to reach warp 7 when by the time ENT ends they barely 100 years after the first warp flight? It says to me that Humans had the best engine design, be that efficiency, upgrade ability, or something else. Andorians probably provided the first phasers and Vulcans would give shields and tractor beems. For the Tellerites, I'm not sure what they were best at. Economy, maybe?