Once Upon A Time's Most Disturbing Ship

This video is about the highly romanticized yet inherently toxic relationship between Belle and Rumplestiltskin.
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key tags (ignore)
Emma Swan, Snow White/Mary Margaret Blanchard, Prince Charming/David Nolan, Evil Queen/Regina Mills, Rumplestiltskin/Mr. Gold, Henry Mills, Captain Hook/Killian Jones, Belle/Belle French, Zelena/Wicked Witch of the West, Robin Hood, Peter Pan/Malcolm, Neal Cassidy/Baelfire, Cinderella/Ella, Prince Thomas/Sean Herman, Red Riding Hood/Ruby Lucas, Granny/Widow Lucas, Jiminy Cricket/Dr. Archie Hopper, Geppetto/Marco, Pinocchio/August Wayne Booth, Blue Fairy/Mother Superior, Maleficent, Ursula, Cruella de Vil, Elsa, Anna, Merida, King Arthur, Guinevere, Nimue, Hades, Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde, Graham
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@wildrefill

[@itscherylplayz8925]

The writers are the true villains of Once upon a Time

[@Sonjayu]

I love this comment so much!

[@itscherylplayz8925]

@@Sonjayu thank you

[@Kirk-36Moshpit]

Figuratively and literally in Season 4, if I remember correctly.

[@Paelmoon]

The show pretty much died half way through Season 2 when they booted Whale and Ruby's characters to fit in Captain Guyliner, so he could force himself on Emma and turn her into a Stepford Wife. (That was when they got the rights to Peter Pan). That and the fact that Season One was basically re-written by Kitsis/Horowitz old boss from Lost.

[@alexdh2001]

i was young and naive when i watched OUAT so i gave rumple almost as much forgiveness as belle did, but there came a point where even my tiny tween brain could tell they were toxic and unhealthy

[@SerenaSkybourne]

i've always been a sucker for the 'bad guy turned good' trope so i certainly made wayyy too many excuses on my first watch too

[@MistySophie]

Yeah like when he stopped being the dark one, but than intentionally went to gain thay power back and started to do suspicious stuff again- thats when I was kinda like "okay he will not change"

[@Courtneybenson907]

I was kinda surprised that they never addressed the fact that there is a rather large age gap between Belle and Rumple, it seems he's at least 20 years older than her, although I think Rumple's supposed to be hundreds of years old by the time he met Belle. I remember thinking their relationship was weird when I was younger, since the show was coming on when I was 11. I had never seen something like that before.

[@evildoesnotsleep-x2b]

It was weird and toxic

[@floriduhgeorgia]

I was the same age and thought the same thing

[@itskaylaiguess]

My abuelita and my grandpa were 20 years apart and were married for the rest of their lives so it can definitely work irl but in media its something you definitely need to touch on...especially given the way these two came to be in love.

[@SerenaSkybourne]

It adds another layer of uncomfortable, especially because the age gap isn't something that's addressed or talked about between them

[@Zach2003]

It's even worse during Belles Lacey phase. Her more irresponsible and impulsive attitude made her appear even more younger, and in contrast makes Rumple (who's trying to act mature (at first)) just looked old next to her in these episodes. He just looks like an estranged father following his daughter around, and it gets even worse when you remember that he was acting in a similar way towards Neal, an arc that happened around the same time. And Neal and Belle look around the same age so every time I try to remember Rumple being soft in OUAT I think "when he was being nice to his son and his other daugh- oh... Girlfriend"

[@aliiciia555]

I always thought Rumple's story is the fantasy version of addiction. He is addicted to magic, that is why he always go back to be the Dark One.

[@PersonallyPerhaps]

That’s what I thought when ever you had a chance to be nomal he was a magicholical.

[@aliiciia555]

@@PersonallyPerhaps yes! Magicholical 🤣 I love this word

[@Ninsidhe]

you're confusing *addiction* with _knowing the way things work_ - Rumple *without* magic was at the mercy of EVERY OTHER MAGIC WIELDER. The mythos of this show was unhealthy to begin with- 'magic is the only thing that can defeat bad guys but we MUST NOT USE IT- unless WE sign off on it and then it's ok'. This isn't about addiction, it's about how toxic mainstream culture actually is and how much it refuses to recognise how absolutely manipulated and culturally gaslit the majority are.

[@beanallene]

I think the cartoon worked well because the Beast didn't change for Belle. He wanted to change before he even met Belle in order to break the curse, but he needed some help in figuring it out. You can't change somebody doesn't want to change.

[@eneaslavinia]

When you said you miss the innocence they had at first, that really hit hard. Because I remember being super touched by their early scenes and their reunion in Storybrook, they were so promising, but it was probably the typical story that should have ended right there (like most of the show, really). As far as I’m concerned, I liked some scenes here and there but they never recaptured the genuine magic they had in the first, maybe first two seasons. I am convinced these two wouldn’t have had even half of the fandom they maintained by the end of the show if it hadn’t been for Robert Carlyle’s effortless ability to develop chemistry with literally anyone. There are probably many factors contributing to the popularity and romanticisation of a ship like this, but considering their age gap and the toxicity of their endless loop of a story, I don’t believe many couples would have stayed as popular as they did without the monstrous amount of talent involved here, especially on Carlyle’s part (De Ravin was good, but he was incredible).

[@iri02802]

I get what you mean. I loved the innocense that was in season 1. A shame we only got it in that season. Besides Rumple is not the only onz with faults. Belle was also very annoying by season 4.

[@eneaslavinia]

@@iri02802 annoying, maybe, but she still deserved better.

[@iri02802]

@@eneaslavinia True. And the Charmings also only wanted her when she was usefull.

[@Ninsidhe]

@@iri02802 funny how manipulative and self serving 'good guys' can be when it suits them... I'd much rather have Lilith that not.

[@jasminef6810]

I want to like this couple so bad but the writers handled it so terribly it’s baffling 😭😭. So true about Rumple, he should’ve stayed good after S3. Whyyyyyyyyyyy. Or at least be a not too terrible anti hero instead of a manipulative villain.

[@jclyntoledo]

See that's the thing because they kept going back and forth with making Rumple good and giving him a Redemption Ark and then undoing it. If he would have turned to good and then stayed that way then the relationship would have been a really good example of how a relationship can be unhealthy and then later on the person works on themselves and it's a healthy relationship. Also the way they did the relationship for them was similar to how I always imagined Belle and the Beast were. I mean it was dysfunctional and at times abusive and there's other types of abuse besides physical. He manipulated her, he tried to control her and also gas light her, all signs of abuse. Not to mention the times he would literally give up on her and discard her because of his own insecurities that had nothing to do with her.

[@nanalove3819]

I think they noticed people like the redemption arc and the "grey" area of Rumple's character. So instead of making all of this makes sense by making him good, they just repeated over and over again the same thing, thinkig it is what people wanted. The saddest thing is that it made all redemption unbelievable at one point, cause they did so much "he is good now... just joking, evil again" that you can't believe he will stay a good person.

[@Jessica-uo4qk]

Another disturbing one for me is how they never acknowledged Regina raping Graham for all those years, like she had control over his heart and threatened to kill him if he tried to escape there was zero consent there. Then she acted creepy towards David, Killian and Aladdin at other points in the show too - someone please correct me if I'm wrong but I don't recall the show ever bringing up her repeated rapist behaviour, she just got a full redemption arc. Insult to injury Regina even chastises Zelena for raping Robin which, first of all yeah she did, but how about some recognition that Regina did the same thing for at least 28 years to poor Graham. Overall not a good look for these writers, I get that they were trying to tell darker versions of the Disney fairy-tales but if you're going to include such serious topics you'd better be damn sure you're not sending the wrong message. At best it was lazy and at worst it was extremely harmful, especially for any impressionable younger viewers.

[@katelyntaylor7384]

Not only do they not address it in the show, like at all (beyond the flashback in the season finale, Graham doesn't even get a mention after his death in S1). But the showrunners actually deny that it was rape on their social media. There are tweets from either Horowitz or Kitsis claiming that the actions between Regina and Graham weren't rape (likely because there is no coming back from that, there is no redeeming a rapist, so they gaslight the fans and hope we have the memories of goldfish like the NPCs in the show). Even with Robin/Zelena, or with Wish Hook/Gothel, who were in similar situations of being decieved and therefore unable to really give informed consent, they don't call it what it is. Regina, of all people, at least calls Zelena out for deceiving Robin and violating him, which she shrugs off with 'is that a compliment' (and somehow THIS BITCH is redeemed?!? The fuck?!?). With Wish Hook, he doesn't even get that much. It's 'hey, I agreed to a one night stand with a hot blond, and oh, there's a newborn baby now, and you needed me to get you pregnant so you could leave an infant for dead in this tower'

[@XxLeschaxX]

This is something that always bothered me too. Since they never addressed Regina's treatment of Graham or how she r*ped him for almost 3 decades. It wouldn't have been enough, but the writers could have addressed this and given some kind of redemption for that act when they did the Underworld arc. Down there she could have run into Graham and after acknowledging it, asking for forgiveness, etc. Graham could have been seen crossing over into a better place. But instead they tried making it seem "sexy" and then dropped the issue altogether after she killed him.

[@katelyntaylor7384]

The writers and creators apparently said in an interview that they don't see what happened between Graham and Regina as rape. They see it as something sexy. It is a terrible stance to take. The show never addresses the creepy behavior both because the creators don't actually see it that way, and because actually addressing it would destroy any chance at a redemption arc.

[@XxLeschaxX]

@@katelyntaylor7384 Oh my gosh. I just thought they were romanticizing the heck out of kidnapping, imprisonment and r*pe. Which is just as terrible. I never knew they thought literally taking away Graham's consent was sexy and not problematic in the least. I don't know what to even say to that.

[@MsFeyCreature]

Yeah rumple and belle are just the worst CONSENSUAL ship and that is....not a distinction I should have to make.

[@SerenaSkybourne]

All I can say from reading your guys’ comments is that some of you are actual GENIUSES

[@sageseeker9197]

This, is why Hook and Emma's romance is a much better villain-to-hero relationship. Emma doesn't love Hook until he proves himself, and any bad behaviors have consequences. He improves himself for her, because he loved her enough to change.

[@lilchaos9212]

Yeah, Emma didn't like Killian while he was a villain and he actively changed and tried to be a better man before they even attempted a relationship. Killian made the effort and actively regretted his past and worked to be a man worthy of Emma but aside from being flirty and jokingly asking for a kiss, he never forced anything or took her rejection out on her. He even risked himself and tried his best to protect her son despite the risk to himself because he had grown to care for Henry. Rumple meanwhile always put his own desires first and never actually tried, he just lied and hid things.

[@brandyloutherback9288]

Belle never had belief in the Beast' humanity util he began to change for the better. She begins by treating him coldly, then giving credit where it's due, remember he did save her life from the wolves! She only started being friendly towards the Beast when he started changing for her! Saying the OG Belle had Stockholm syndrome is a lazy reading of the animated movie! I feel like the animated film was lightning in a bottle, the superb writing of Linda Woolverton really carried Beauty and The Beast!

[@MadChips202]

I always hated Rumple and Belle as a couple. Even as a kid my insides would curl up in a bad way whenever they kissed or she would forgive him and take him back. He was my least favourite character, if he wasn’t with belle and didn’t treat her like that then he probably would have been one of my fav villains but their relationship and his treatment of her made me hate him and want to hurl 🤮

[@MrTwentington]

My issue with Rumbelle is I actually really love beauty and the beast as a fairy tale and the Disney movie is one of my favourite movies of all time (the animated one, not the live action). Because I think the cartoon does a great job of showing how the beast is so depressed and angry lashing out and that Belle doesn’t just allow it she stands up to it and it is only when he shows he’s capable of nice and when he has truly changed at the end when he’s able to forgive and be the bigger man to Gaston instead of just give in to violence. And Belle likewise wanted someone who understood her which no one in her basic town did the only time people were nice to her was because they thought she was hot. But then here’s the beast taking the time to want to do something truly nice for her and give her his library and realising he messed up screaming kicking off when she saw the rose… ughhh it’s just so good and I love it. But I don’t love what takes on the story have done since. Rumbelle *could’ve* been great but by repeating the same patterns it was just unpleasant by the end of it. I still personally believe that what should’ve happened is Belle should’ve dumped Rumple when she did and then got to talk to Ruby and have a red beauty pairing over time where it’s still a beauty and the beast narrative because werewolf. They could even do that thing where the dialogue gets clunky and refer to her as a beast even though no one ever did before.

[@SerenaSkybourne]

Omg Ruby and Belle- how did I not think of that?!! It’s literally beauty and the beast to a t

[@MrTwentington]

@@SerenaSkybourne like she could be off to granny’s having the burgers she loves just wanting to bond with people closer to her own age for once, get Ruby back in the main gang without needing to introduce new people and over time there’s just something there that wasn’t there before

[@sympathetic_heart]

omg, yes!! i shipped redbeauty so much when i watched the show, they had sooo many good moments

[@aricaj.3006]

As an aspiring writer I honestly find that the issues with this relationship were mostly due to sloppy writing and not anyone actually intending to frame an abusive dynamic as positive. Unfortunately, regardless of intent, if your writing process consists of throwing darts at a board and blending together whatever random elements you get without proper forethought or planning, the result is more often than not problematic. I could tell after season 3 that the writers had no idea what to do with Rumple since they let him survive his redemption arc instead of killing him off. Then it was like they realized "oh shit if we redeem both Rumple and Regina we'll have no main villain", and instead of making a smart decision like utilizing Zelena more or picking from any one of the gazillion Disney villains still left at their disposal to be the new regular big bad, they just...made Rumple bad again. Then continued flip flopping with him for the rest of the series. It's not a "complex character arc" if you're basically playing Disney Mad Libs with the script

[@kaylahensley1581]

I watched seasons 1-3 because I loved Rumbelle, but I couldn't stomach season four. On the other hand the Rumbelle fandom has some of the best fanfic I've ever read.

[@amethystimagination3332]

I think what a lot of people miss about Beauty and the Beast, the Disney animated film especially, is that it’s not about fixing someone else, it’s about healing yourself so you can be better for the people you love. Compared to other Disney princess movies it’s a very slow burn romance, Belle only starts coming around to him after the wolf attack, and even then it’s over the course of months considering the movie starts in autumn and ends in spring. During those months the Beast is shown trying to improve himself, he starts using utensils and wearing clothes, paying attention to her interests and showing genuine interest as well. Rumple and Belle don’t have that, Rumple sacrifices nothing and Belle just goes along with whatever he’s doing with minimal pushback.

[@condensedmilk9310]

Your exasperated sighs are so relatable XD I love OUAT but the writing was so bad sometimes it makes me sad. The show had so much potential and in some places it was great but in others it was absolutely terrible. I hated how they kept reusing the same story line for Rumple and destroying his character's growth every time to have him start over, especially after season 3 where he LITERALLY had a squeaky clean new heart. And they did my girl Belle dirty, she was such a fun character and they never really gave her the opportunity to shine on her own :( Plus the fact that they reinvented classic characters in such a fun new way in the first few seasons but later just inserted the Disney versions of the characters without even giving them so much as a new costume was a huge disappointment

[@PittsburghSportsFan43]

I feel like Rumple was taken way too far into villain territory. His story changed so wildly from season 1. When we first meet him, he's locked up for some reason, but he's warning Snow and Charming about the curse and telling them to get their baby to safety. He calls it "the Queen's curse" so I don't believe for a second that he gave it to her to cast. Regina should have stayed the main villain, and Rumple could have been this gray character, one who has his own agenda but will step in to help the heroes when needed. And they did that for a while, until they decided to make Regina sympathetic despite her trying to murder Snow multiple times, wanting to kill Emma and cursing everyone in town. It just seemed to me that Rumple was thrown under the bus, and whenever they couldn't come up with a decent plot they made him the villain again. It's the only thing that could make any of his actions make sense.

[@TheGabygael]

I was really conflicted about this relationship as a kid,i didn't like the relationship one bit but the chemistry between the two actors was my favorite of the whole show i always hoped they would grow more as characters and that the writers would either make them break apart and explore that theme of "love isn't always enough" or that they would play with the whole toxic relationship and have both characters more grey either by mkaing belle more of a villain or by allowing rumple to actually be a good character and have that love conquers all thing they were actually going for (which would always be problematic tbh because overly romanticized)

[@not-a-ghost2206]

Yeah I never shipped them as well always thought they were overhyped and problematic. Belle is the epitomy of a woman written by a man.. so much forgiveness! After what he did to his family, to his son? I would be furious. But she is always smiling and relavating his abuse and violence. You married the villain. At least admit he isn't the Prince in shining armour.

[@SlayerNinaFriki]

It was the toxicity that engaged people on

[@MsMartinMuses]

The problem was the writing went to sh- after season 3 with all the characters.

[@crispycol4904]

Completely agree. They, of course, wanted to keep Caryle on as Rumpel, he is such a good actor and plays the villain really well. However, the direction they took him in was just bad, I'd rather have... A: he sacrificed himself and was off the main cast. Belle perhaps could've started a romance with Neal so Emma and Hook could be a thing. B: He only stayed evil because Zelena controlled him but afterwards just became a good guy, allowing Belle also to develop as her own character. C: He turned back into a villain, causing Belle to end things with him. Which would probably lead to her being removed from the main cast, but preserve her character. Idk if they could make Belle relevant as her own character tbh

[@StarViewer68]

I like choice A or B

[@deedreamerify]

The idea of a belle/neal romance makes me uncomfortable though it does feel like it wouldn't be out of place for this show 😅

[@katelyntaylor7384]

Or, Option D. Have Rumple stay dead. He's never revived after the murder/suicide sacrifice that takes out Pan. Someone knocks some sense into Neal before he acts, maybe some magic artifact allows him to speak to his father beyond the grave, and Rumple calls him a dumbass for what he's planning. Then, you keep the flashback format of the show, and keep having Robert Carlyle as Rumple in the past. So we keep the charisma of the actor, and that redemption

[@cybercriminal3110]

Belle and Neal would be vile 😂

[@xxaleksi]

I have literally only since the past few days been watching ouat content and started rewatching the show literally yesterday and was just watching it

[@SerenaSkybourne]

perfect timing then!

[@mikejaks4518]

Basically from season 3-6ish, the writers couldn’t let go of having Rumple as a villain (despite having a flashback system that allows them to do just that) so they kept him flipping back and forth but it only ended up hurting his relationship with Belle. Cuz nothing in s4 and 5 and the first half of 6 even furthered or deepened their relationship or rumples character, just keeping him toxically stagnant. Also I agree about all that Neal stuff too, he should’ve stayed around to have moments with Henry and, frankly, Rumple. I get having some couple drama cuz that’s drama for tv, but rumple and Belle went way too far with it s4-6. But there was a better way to keep rumples progress form s3 and still explore his deep well of self esteem issues. If anything, I wish s6 with the black fairy could’ve happened in like s4 or even 5 cuz that really showed (and the writers tried to bake it into the shows canon) that rumple has huge abandonment issues and has truly the most awful parents of the show and that he was inclined to self sabotage for so much of his life (and the hai mother severing his fate as the savior, essentially removing his innate heroism and essentially placing his “beast” within him). Thats why the last half of s6 was so refreshing for rumple (and Rumbelle) cuz they were openly communicating, laying themselves open, and truly hearing each other for once in 3 seasons. Plus, Robert Carlyle did great work on making rumple in s6b feel like the rumple from 1-3 again, as he was very introspective and realized that being evil and self sabotage wasn’t the answer. Like, in my head, and I’m sure this is how the writers wished things went, s1-3, then s6b-7 is how Rumbelle should’ve played out, and none of the messy s4-5/6a stuff happened.

[@gabrielleduplessis7388]

I feel Neil’s death was more to finish his arc with his father. He finally got into a good place with Rumple and his death paralleled rumple killing pan, but instead of ending him, he sacrificed himself.

[@gisela_oliveira]

yeah, but he was one of the best characters, and his death did so much damage to the show

[@not-a-ghost2206]

But then why didn't the other characters die when their arch finished? For example Anna and Elsa I loathed that part and made me stop the show but they kept dragging them on..

[@gabrielleduplessis7388]

@@not-a-ghost2206 i am one of the few whose favorite season is 4, but do understand that Rumple shouldn’t have lived as long as he did. I feel when Zelena’s arc finished, she did not have to die, but she showed up less than the main cast. I feel that many of the characters ( although side ones) had arcs that finished, but did not need to unnecessarily die, but showed up less. But do get your point.

[@TheGabygael]

A very key part if the original fairytale ( or at least the written version most adaptations take from) is that the beast is a genuine gentleman: he's well mannered, is not really interested in capturing Belle's father, courteous, gentle but a bit aloof and ugly (the moral of that version, aimed at polite society at that point, is as long as your husband is nice to you and treats you well don't be pushed back by the way he looks and infidelity is bad, marry your cousin, and testing your Future partner to see if they would cheat is a really normal thing to do *cough*)

[@asverith]

Most love stories in OUAT are... not good. They look cute at first and the chemistry is usually great so it's not immediately noticeable, but the show tends to throw in more and more shit for "drama" and then draaaag. The same thing happened repeatedly: I loved a ship, got fed up, thought "they've ruined it, it was great before", looked back and realized no, no it wasn't. It was new and shiny and that's it. There's was nothing beneath the shine.

[@SerenaSkybourne]

Who's your favourite couple in the show? I still have a soft spot for Graham/Emma, and Emma/Hook

[@gabrielleduplessis7388]

I love emma and hook. I liked how they grew together and how much they would fight for each other.

[@gabrielleduplessis7388]

But they are second to reginia and robin.

[@CourtneyAnnM]

Emma/Hook is definitely my favorite of the show. The chemistry was off the charts and I'm a sucker for enemies to lovers. Plus, it didn't hurt that they were well-matched in many ways.

[@PaolaRL]

David and Mary Margareth 😊

[@PostTraumaticJess]

Snow and Charming. So corny with their 'I will always find you' stuff but damn it, I love them. 😂They're so stable.

[@Sproutgoodnight1161]

YOU'RE BACK WITH BANGS!!!!!! SERENNNNA THEY ARE FABULOUS Yeah I only saw most of season one and bits of other seasons Rumple is bad news and Belle is too good for him

[@frankieloves7078]

It's interesting as the way I (maybe because I watched as an adult and someone who is a huge fan of Steven Berkoff) interpreted as the ugly truth of some relationships. When in relationship where potentially coercive control / manipulation is happening you are very unlikely to act in a linear/ right way which I believe the character of Belle represented. Also I did also identify with Belle once dating someone who was like Rumple . Though I agree that the happy ending would have been them breaking up I think that not everyone is going to have a happy ending.

[@Nightwing-Gemini]

Oh I’m so looking forward to watching this on my lunch break! You rock Serena! Can’t wait to see more OUAT videos!

[@SerenaSkybourne]

i love making these ones

[@Anniecpw3]

I haven’t gotten to season 6 but … was the “growing old” versions of Gold and Belle based off of the movie Up? Because thats..,that’s insane

[@mihaelaflorea7901]

I agree with most of your points. It was just because the arc they intended to write for Rumple ended either with his sacrifice for Pan or with his wedding to Belle. But because the show went on, they didn't know what to do so they recycled his arc over and over that's why it feels off. A couple of point / things to add. 8:37 The dude was the Sheriff of Nottingham and he was most definitely a douche back in the Enchanted Forest. Rumple thought he kissed Belle without her consent as he aluded to it in the Enchanted Forest. 10:38 Their wedding vows are awesome because they were written to apply to every couple in the show 11:49 I disagree, Neal's death was to do with his arc with Rumple. Rumple was the first character they resurrected in the show and they tried to keep it consistent with the "all magic comes with a price" fairytale theme of the show. Neal was so against magic all his life until he actually needed it, then he was willing to do whatever it takes without understanding the price. And they intentionally parallel and contrast Pan abandoning Rumple with Rumple abandoning Neal arcs to the end. 12:59 I think Rumple because of his power and the way he manipulates everything always seemed like he would be "above" mundane things like PTSD. Belle was the closest to him, she was there for him and he lied to her and she couldn't tell anything was wrong. He didn't want anyone to know. He always keeps himself at a distance from the main group. Also he didn't go crazy because he was locked up, he went crazy because he absorbed Neal. As is usually the case in fantasy bringing normal life metrics of mental health into it doesn't usually work because you could argue every character should have PTSD and then what show do we have from there? 14:57 They didn't reframe it at all. Rumple being a coward was his main personality trait mentioned in extensively in S1 and 2. That was the whole thing, everything he did, fleeing the War, becoming the Dark One, acquiring more and more power he used his son as an excuse for it but underneath it all it was to make up for his cowardice. Neil knew that and that's why he was so against it. The only time Rumple was truly able to be brave was when he sacrificed himself to kill Pan without magic. 15:39 Will was introduced for the spinoff. It was made clear in the show he was hung up on the Red Queen. He made no sense as a love interest for Belle. 18:53 The concern for Belle (and for everyone) is that if Belle broke up with him and he stayed in town, what would prevent him from doing evil shit with this magic and then they would have to deal with him somehow anyway. Belle wanted to take matters into her own hands. Plus you watch a show for the drama, without it it'd be boring. 19:33 Wasn't that in S7? 20:22 Belle has plots with other people besides Rumple. She helps Mulan turn Philip back into a person, she helps Merida fight for her brothers, she went to Arendelle to make peace with her mother's death, she befriended Ruby in Storybrooke, she dated Will for a bit, she went with the others to Camelot even though Rumple was in a coma. She had a story with Gaston which explained why she felt responsible for the Ogre War and her mother's death. Her father also tried to control her. Yes, maybe they could have done more with her but considering the screen time and her being the book worm, researchy character it was what we got.

[@dominiqueknight6707]

Happy new year! I’m really digging your OUAT videos, they scratch the same itch that PLL does- an amazing concept with great aspects that ultimately turned into a mess somehow.

[@symwinter]

I, still to this day, believe that Belle should have left Rumple for Ruby.

[@lilchaos9212]

I just choose to believe that Belle divorced him at the end of Season 6 and she got with either Ruby or Mulan because they would treat her RIGHT.

[@LeoraWaltuch]

Hi, me again. I’m making my way through your videos. And right away, you use another one of my articles, and oh my gosh, this is making me so happy! You are so sweet, and this is so flattering that you keep using them. I’m glad you’re a Disney’s Beauty and the Beast stan. CinemaTherapy has a really good video defending it. And you make a lot of really good points about how Belle went into the relationship wanting to change Rumple, and how toxic that is for both of them. Again, I’m going to plug DragonBat’s Heartstrings series on AO3, because it really goes into this idea as well, and I feel like if you’re open to fanfiction, and you haven’t read this one yet, you’ll really appreciate it and what it tries to do for these characters. They were definitely better in the beginning. It’s only in retrospect that it became hard to enjoy it, and even made us look back and see flaws in the early bits. I like how you say you were happy they met because it made you see a different side of his character. Skin Deep is also the episode where I really started to enjoy and root for Rumple. The guy Rumple beat up when Belle was Lacey was the sheriff of Nottingham from Robin Hood lore, who we see back in the Enchanted Forest wanted to exchange information to Rumple for a night with Belle against her will. He didn’t apologize because he was a good person; he apologized because he knew how dangerous Rumple was and didn’t want to piss him off, and he knew that because back in The Enchanted Forest, when he tried to exchange information for a night with Belle, Rumple took his tongue. What Rumple is doing is not okay, and I think they should have talked about it, but I didn’t feel bad for the sheriff. I’m not sure that he got an ego boost from her so much as he wanted her back and being evil was the only way to get her back. He went to Belle when she didn’t have her memories and asked her to help him be good because he was scared that he was going to hurt Henry, and he knew she brought out the best in him. I think he did want to be better, but he also wanted Belle, and Belle/Lacey didn’t want him to in that moment, so he was torn. Yes about PTSD and trauma. I think maybe “he,” thought he was scared, because he always sees himself as the coward. Like you said, major self-esteem issues. I can’t be good with Belle and Will because of his arc on Wonderland, but I get where you’re coming from. Yeah, I hate that she showed up. It was cruel. So, I’m at the end of the video, and I’m not going to plug my articles again, because it looks like you’ve probably read all of them, which, wow, thank you so much, and I see you linked the one your referenced in this video in the description, and I’m so happy and grateful and flattered. I do think as someone who liked Rumple and wanted to support him and Belle in the beginning, and grew very fed up with them and him at the end, and also felt that Belle needed more of her own stuff, I really think you would enjoy and appreciate Heartstrings by DragonBat. It takes place right after Belle exiles Rumple over the town line, and it makes some tweaks that help us to really root for this couple right when they really went off the rails, before they got past the point of no return. It also makes Belle more fleshed out and relatable, and it helps us both understand where Rumple is coming from without just flat out excusing his behavior, but brings him to a point of true redemption that we can believe and want to stick. So, yes, I highly recommend checking it out, and let DragonBat no I sent you if you do. Thank you again, so much for reading my articles and referencing them. I can’t say it enough. It means so much. Stay safe.

[@SerenaSkybourne]

thankyou for your comment! i did quite a lot of research on the show but honestly couldn't find much good stuff there aside from your article! love it

[@edoboleyn]

“I would never suggest a young woman kiss the man who held her captive. What kind of message is that?” - Regina This is a great video! Your analysis captures so much of what frustrated me about this wacky show and its writing.

[@talesyuki]

I mean, poor Rumple. The writers did him dirty AF!!! By the end he was intolerable...

[@elinh9755]

I've fantasised about doing a video like this for years because there was nothing out there. Thank you for making a video about this couple and for not sugar coating anything, the internet needs it! (I say that as a sort-of-rumbelle fan)

[@alyzu4755]

Robert Carlyle is such a great actor, and they did him dirty in this show.

[@mcostagirl123]

I honestly hated the whole story arc with Rumple in the show. Like, I get that for a show like this it was important to have these characters be so good and heroic that they gave people more than one chance because they saw the potential for good in them. But, as the seasons went on, it became very clear that he had chosen to be evil and he wasn’t going to change. He repeatedly betrayed everyone almost every season and still they kept forgiving and forgetting. It became ridiculous. Instead of the characters looking like good people who saw good in others, they looked like idiots who couldn’t accept the fact that some people were irredeemable.

[@not-a-ghost2206]

That last part! Being good isn't being naive. But sometimes it seemed like it until everyone repeated their patterns and it became redundant

[@ambern7734]

I stopped watching the show because of the storyline of killing Neal/Baelfire to save Rumple. Just like the video said narratively after Rumplestiltskin sacrifices himself to save everyone. (but mostly Baelfire and Bell the only two people he loves in the world). would have been a perfect end for his character and his storyline. It would have been bittersweet. he would have been with his son but to keep his son alive and give him a chance at a happy life he needs to give up his.

[@lfsantacruz8703]

Apparently, Josh and Ginnifer's ability to make infidelity look cute also transfered in the real world since she was engaged, and he was married when they got together. 🙃

[@Ana_Paula.Frasson]

Ginnifer said in a interview last year that she broke her engagement before they started to get together and he already had divorce papers filled. And that people never believe her, but they actually really tried to not like each other at first.

[@lfsantacruz8703]

@@Ana_Paula.Frasson no one believes them because they went on their "first date" literally the day after he filed for divorce. And she only split with her fiance shortly before that. Lol.

[@not-a-ghost2206]

Omg really? I knew they were together but that story is emotional cheating.

[@Ana_Paula.Frasson]

@@lfsantacruz8703. So, what you're saying is: they didn't cheat. One thing is to not be honest with your partner and being with someone else behind their back, while pretending to their faces that everything is ok (like, yes, in the show, what David did to Abigail. That's cheating). But when you fall out of love with them/in love with someone else and let them know right away, explain the relationship can't continue, asks for break up, than you didn't cheat, you didn't went behind their back, you didn't lie. Cheating is all about the lies you tell, the misguidance. If you develop stronger feelings for someone else it is absolutely your duty to tell your parter about it. That's what counts. There's no such thing as emotional cheating, to cheat is an action of two people who make the decision to act on their feelings without telling anyone, in secret, in shame, ignoring the feelings of who was there before.

[@Sirena101]

Sounds to me like they both realized they were in crap relationships they wanted to break free from. Just because they immediately started dating once they were available doesn’t make them cheaters.

[@purplexninjamom]

I´ve always loved the complexity of Rumplestiltskin. I hated the back and forth, the constant heel turns, he felt like an overused wrestling character. He was so funny and such a good character in the beginning. I loved it when Belle cut him off because her child told her to. Sad that Gideon had to tell her, but hey, she´s not completely lost.

[@lilchaos9212]

Something that annoyed me about the whole 'Lacey' thing is the fact that Belle never actually addressed the fact that Rumple used Belle being cursed/having false memories as an excuse to give into his dark impulses. He used Lacey as an excuse to be violent and controlling and "dark", completely betraying everything Belle stood for and showing that he never actually cared for Belle for who she was, he just wanted her because she was beautiful and he got to have his cake and eat it too with Lacey. I get he was grieving but the fact he was willing to basically abandon Henry by letting his entire family die was so messed up as well and shows how self-serving Rumple's love actually was. Like they tried to make it seem like he cared for Henry by him making the deal to spare Henry with Ingrid, but at the same time he tried murdering the man who was slowly becoming his new father-figure so recently after his birth father died and then tried to corrupt and screw over his entire family?? Rumple wanted to LOOK like he cared but never actually put the effort in. I wouldn't be surprised if the reason they killed Neal off was a mixture of wanting to get rid of the character because they couldn't figure out what else to do with him since they wanted to focus on CaptainSwan and Rumbelle, they didn't actually care to develop his relationship with Henry as father-and-son (probably because Killian was going to take his place) and the actor mightn't have wanted to stick around given the lack of material so killing him off was easier than taking the time to write him out given how connected he is to everyone. I feel like they could've explained it if they had gone down the road of being held captive by Zelena causing Rumple to basically revert back to his old coping mechanism of needing power and actually depicting how it affected him/gave him PTSD which then made him worry that he wouldn't be able to protect the people he loved. That would've at least been a sympathetic, understandable angle that made sense and could've then had Belle/Archie/Henry help him realise that he has people he can rely on and learn to let go of his need for power.

[@nyx-lyris]

thank you so much for this! you’ve put all of my thoughts into words! i’ve been rewatching ouat and everything after season three is so bad it’s not even funny. the writers destroyed rumple for no reason and they made belle such a shallow character. tbh rewatching the show has made me realize there were problems with everything from the beginning. it’s just so sad to see a show with such wonderful ideas and concepts and potential get absolutely destroyed by a bunch of moronic hacks that have the nerve to call themselves writers.

[@alaynajordan8459]

I think the writers did Belle dirty, I thought it was ridiculous Belle was held captive for so long in Storybrooke. They should have had her working at the library from the beginning, with Rumple pining after her because he knows shes too good for him. They had so much potential ugh

[@wickedthing6068]

I was always curious why they never acknowledged the huge age gap.

[@SerenaSkybourne]

it would have been soooo easy to mention it as well, in a little side conversation or dialogue- and the fact they avoided bringing it up at all was so bizarre

[@Sirena101]

Probably because everyone is in a relationship with someone wildly older/younger than them 😂 Rumple doesn’t just look older, he is centuries old. So are Baelfire and Hook, Emma is a baby compared to them.

[@jhonsmith5093]

My major problem with the ship is Rumple is all show don't tell, and Belle is all tell don't show. I mean, with Rumple there is like, a million chances that if we could just hear his thoughts, it would change everything. He spent a year as Zelena's captive doing who knows what to him because she has the dagger, and right after that, like literally the next day show timeline wise after he gets his freedom he gets tempted with the hat and a chance to free himself from the dagger permanently. Yeah, he's going to fall off the wagon. Especially when you think, has he had time to grieve his son's death? Come to terms with what happened during that year they shared a body? But we never get that moment where he explains his motivations and they never really show the trauma that should be there. We know as real people it should exist, but nothing in the show points to it. And later, when Belle is trying to escape with their kid, first of all that's called kidnapping. But also, she knows that he literally spent 300 years trying to get his first kid back, and then lost him in the end. What did she think his reaction was going to be? Duh, he's going to freak the hell out and do everything he can to not lose another, morals and consequences be damned. And who does Belle go to for help in leaving to another world, Zelena, I mean, all things considered, there literally wasn't a worse choice to ask for help. I truly think that scene would hit so very different if instead of saying "I'm doing this it out love" Rumor says "I spent 300 years searching for my son. A son killed by the woman you asked for help. Who died because you couldn't be bothered to take a day and make sure that candle wasn't lying. No, I will not lose another child, and I clearly can't trust you to protect them, so I'll do what I must." Is him putting the gold cuff still messed up, yeah. But come on, tell me that simple rewrite doesn't hit very different AND is way more consistent with Rumple's character? Belle is all tell don't show. We are told she is this kind, smart, selfless, brave, a good person. But we never actually see it. She selflessly sacrificed herself to save her people, ONLY after the war was already lost and she would have died anyway. She bravely stood up to Rumple and saved Robin Hood from the dungeon, AFTER Rumple had been torturing him and she only went down there after he left the castle, so she wouldn't need to risk herself (and, is it just me or is it weird this is the only time we see Rumple torture someone without magic???). She's so smart... That she completely misunderstood how the magic gauntlet worked (I will never forgive the writers for that one) and the one time we actually see her do research on her own in the entire show, turns out Rumple was the professor. (If there were others they aren't memorable enough to any impression) As for good, only when it benefits her. When Hades had the baby contact she blames Rumple for making that deal, and then uses the sleeping curse to "fix the problem" because they don't have time to let Rumple find a solution. But right before she pricks her finger she tells Rumple to "Do whatever he has to do" to get her to get farther. She knows who he is, she knows what he is capable of. If she is awake then he might ask her to do something "evil" in order to protect their child. And that would call into question her goodness as a person if she does the evil, or her goodness as a mother if she won't do everything for her kid. If she is asleep, then she doesn't need to make any choice. Her goodness is preserved. And it's not really a gamble because she knows Rumple will do anything to wake her up. Rumple is all, they show him being evil, but never actually tell us his motivations. Is he traumatized? Is it the Dark One in his head? Or is he just too far gone done the road to ruin? No idea. Belle is all tell don't show. Everyone says she's all these great things, but I honestly can't think of a single scene in the show where she actually shows any of these good qualities in meaningful ways.

[@DaniEma17]

I agree with you. In my opinion, well Rumbelle´s story is super toxic, but mainly on Belle´s side. She´s manipulative and she abuses him. Yes, he´s the Dark One, he´s done some harsh deals, he´s selfish and he´ll always do what is good for him and yes, he´s addicted to magic and to power because he was treated as a coward always and he´s got real issues. He´s a truly tragic character who lost so much. But most importantly he´ll do anything for his family, even the impossible, even the worst of the worst, he´ll make the darkest plan, he´s resourceful and plays super long game. And here´ s Belle who fell in love with the man AND the beast. But she´s is the one who´s unstable, immature and manipulative. Rumple tried everything for her, he really tried to be his best version. He changed, he saved everyone, he became hero, he got his heart purified, he´s made deal with the actual God of Death to save their child and everything else. But as soon as he showed the very slightest change of behavior to better- she pushed him away. He wasn´t good enough. He was never good enough for her. She was deceiving herself the whole time as she couldn´t really love him without him being the beast, but she had this high moral bar, that her "beast needs to change to a prince", but in reality she didn´t like it. she didn´t want it. She just wanted to use Rumple´s powers as it suited her. That´s the worst toxic treat a woman can have. And more Rumple got in peace with himself the more she despised him because she couldn´t manipulate him so easily anymore, so she just skipped right to hatred although Rumple never did anything to harm her yet she did everything she humanely possibly could to harm him. And she got praised. yeees, because he´s the bad bad villain and she´s the hero so apparently she got the right to toy with him and to mistreat him. Rumple really did her love more that anything in the world, because any other person would have left her for good. She wanted to change him from the very beginning and when he started to change, she pushed him away, then he fell into old habits and she yelled at him that he hasn´t change at all. She was diminishing his efforts all the time. The enchanted forest version of Belle tried to find the best in beast Rumple while the real world Belle was looking for the worst in Gold. And she knew who he was. She knew that the Dark One lies, that the Dark One is not a hero, he´s a tragic antihero at best a villain at worst, but he is who he is and if she truly loved him as she claimed, she would accepted that. She craved the darkness unconsciously but never accepted it in Rumple, tried to change him, but the change was not good enough. The biggest lie from her mouth was: "I never wanted you to be perfect!" that´s just gaslighting, that´s complete crap. She wasn´t happy with any change for good, everything was just a reason to get into fight and to yell at him and to show him how miserable is the life with him and how she practically hates him. And he endured 7 seasons of that without going completely mad and without giving that back to her. But she was his light and he needed her the same way he needed his magic. He was addicted both ways- to magic and to her although she systematically wounded him every time she got the chance. And Rumple... he´s far from perfect husband or father, he´s ways are disputable at best , punishable at worst. He´s not a hero, he´s a survivor. He doesn´t really care for the rest of the world around and he really doesn´t care much about collateral damage (which makes him an antihero), he just wants peace for himself and his family. So no, he´s not a paragon of virtue- never was, never claimed to be. In fact he was harsher on himself that he should have been. He thought himself the worst of them all, he told it so many times. He took credit for even more evil that he really did. I was sooo mad about their relationship from season 3 onwards, I couldn´t stand her (Belle). She was either playing stupid or she was ranting about Rumple being Rumple and that was soo unnerving. Yes, he probably isn´t the partner the majority of us would take for a life partner because of his obvious flaws but he did love deeply. But Belle knew. She knew who he was and married him in spite of that. And tried to "fix" him, change him, not accepting him, always throwing crap into his face about he´s beastliness... their relationship might have been OK if she just accepted him for who he was and helped him in morally difficult situations like she did a few times in Enchanted Forest. You can help your partner, you can elevate them, you can help them be the best versions of themselves. But that happens only if you really accept them and cherish them for who they already are. If you are in love with your "project" with the idea of "how someone can turn out", you´ll never truly love the imperfect person in front of you. Marriage is about striving to be our best selves for the people we love and helping our partner with their struggle. But never trying to change them as we should love them for who they are nor for who they might be given proper treatment. That´s ugly, unfair and just pure selfish.

[@MegaMegafran]

I dont think it was just his arc that fell through, the show had a lot of plot lines the didnt go anywhere and were forgotten with 0 explanation: Grumpy and Nova's romance, Mulan's story, Dr whale's brother "the frankenstein's monster" was he left "alive/undead" in that cell in the land without color all throughout the show?, Lily's story was at 1st presented as the main focus of the season and then the character was completely forgotten, Belle's mother's death was hyped up to have some kind of big secret that just wasnt worth showing in the end, little Roland who ended up an orphan like what happened to him?. There were so many holes in the story that unless you had the Charming last name the character was just forgotten. And in my opinion the side characters were way nore interesting than the dull Prince Charming and the not as pure as snow Snow White

[@msushi98]

Fun fact: This show was filmed in my hometown (Steveston). That’s the only reason I watched this show.

[@ofthewilderwoods]

I’ve been there, it’s a really cute town!

[@Ghostykitten]

Oh dang. I only ever watched the first two seasons of OUAT and a few episodes of season 3. I didn't realize how bad the storyline for them got. I thought they were am interesting couple ( tho granted I like dark romances so that's just me) but it's disappointing how downhill the writing for the whole show got especially with them. I was rooting for them tbh cause Rumple was one of the most interesting characters and the actor did an amazing job. Great video and analysis!

[@tatim-j838]

Been a long time fan of your channel and am absollutely loving your OUAT videos!! I cant wait to see more! (Also 😅 jotting down your criticisms ans thoughts on a notepad as someonne insanely writing a bunch of OUAT fics and also desperately wanting to fix these twonas well as other stuff with that show)

[@SerenaSkybourne]

I have been uploading the full scripts of this OUAT series to my patreon if you or anyone else are interested! For the Emmy award tier. www.patreon.com/SerenaSkybourne It might save you needing to take notes if this is something you do regularly

[@doryinsanime6862]

I love your reviews and videos so much.I love once upon a time series.

[@lexa4160]

Theyre the reason I dropped the show lol, it wasnt for me and I hated how it portrayed it as romantic 😭

[@hr_3m0_fk_rv5u2]

My friends and I stopped watching OUAT after season 6 ended, mainly because at that point my favorite villain was ruined and the next season picked up years later with characters I had absolutely no attachment to. It was like starting the show again, only terrible with nothing to keep me interested in what was happening.

[@SerenaSkybourne]

#belledeservedbetter

[@flyingbeagle6371]

Its been years since I watched the show so correct me if I’m wrong here. But I remember it bothering me way back in season 2 that when Hook straight up tells Belle that Rumple was lying and murdered his ex wife, nothing comes of it? I know she lost her memory soon after for a bit but she did get her memories back but that major red flag of Rumple being a wife murderer was never even brought up or addressed. If that was me and I found out the guy I’m dating murdered his ex because he found out she had left him for someone else I’d be fearing for my life.

[@jackkirker9535]

0:43 - 0:47 : One of the most toxic TV couples I've seen romanticized in a very long time. Me: What about Delena from The Vampire Diaries?

[@Wally-id7yo]

Feels like this ship is just the defintion of "But I can fix him!" No girly pop. No you can not.

[@CourtneyAnnM]

Rumple and Belle are my least favorite ship in the entire OUAT fandom. I never understood the love for them. The age gap alone weirded me out, the actors had ZERO chemistry, and by the end of the series both of their characters are destroyed because of their insistance on keeping this relationship endgame. Rumple's character is ruined with inconsistency - teetering between pleasing Belle and his personal desire/struggle for power. And Belle's character is ruined because by staying with Rumple through all the crap he pulls, her character becomes a doormat. I don't get it and I wish Belle had been given a better, more deserving love interest.

[@nanalove3819]

Belle deserved so much better. She was just Rumple's love interest in the show, but she could have been so much more. They didn't even want to keep her in season seven despite the fact that the actress was ok to return, contrary to a lot of the cast. Just shows the little respect they had for her and how she was just there for Rumple's character arc and nothing else.

[@TheLunarboy4]

While I do agree with your overall conclusion with this video, there are a few points I disagree with you on. 1.) In season 2 when Gold is beating up the guy Lacy was making out with, I felt it was because Gold thought that interaction was not consensual and he was defending Lacey (Belle). 2.) Pre-Dark-One Rumplestilskin was totally a coward. Even in season 1 he left the Ogre Wars because he was too afraid to die. He just used being a father and not wanting to abandon his son as his rationality.

[@TheLunarboy4]

Also, the Scaley Lizard Wizard Rumplestiskin we see in the Camelot arc is "The Dark One" using his face to talk to Emma, therefor it is not a reflection of actual Rumplestiltskin.

[@sannh]

Don't forget how he also beats Belle's father.

[@Marie-wk9bb]

1) Ok, it has been years since I saw season 2, but I distinctly remember that he first thought that it was nonconsensual - that was when he saw them making out, he immediately tried to stop them, and Bell told him that she wanted to be with the guy she was kissing. Later that night Rumple went home, and the guy stoped him to ask him if she was his girl friend, and in this moment Rumple started to beat him up - after he found out that Bell was willingly with him. 2) I agree.

[@lilchaos9212]

Rumple found the guy afterwards though and started beating on him AFTER Lacey had told him that it was consensual and she didn't like him. Rumple was just taking his anger out on the guy.

[@sunnycastiglioni7512]

I loved this ship for about the first...half? of the show, but somewhere around the last couple of seasons I watched, I lost my passion for it. It's been a long time since I watched it, so I don't remember exactly what happened that put me "over it," I just remember getting burned out with Rumple having to learn his lesson and redeem himself over and over and over. I think Beauty and the Beast is the most misunderstood love story, in adaptations. This isn't the only iteration of it that seems to miss out on the same nuances you've mentioned and leaned more into an "I can fix him" narrative.

[@annaniskanen2557]

I never really watched the show past the first season. Like I read couple of things about following seasons and noped the hell out bc it was clear everything was going to become ashes. So I delved into fanfiction instead and have not regretted it. :D But really, I am all here for The Most Disturbing Ships, thankyouverymuch. No, really. That is why I love fiction; because I can explore things that would NEVER work in real life. So I absolutely love the most disturbed, the most toxic, the most depraved, the most weird stuff romance-wise there is. There has to be chemistry, too, of course and you have to get why a couple is so into each other. So it isn't only about the romance being disturbing; however, if/when you have a couple that has great chemistry and great backstory and compelling characteristics, having their romance being somewhat disturbed, does elevate it in my eyes. Meaning, elevate it in interest level. Because, frankly, while healthy, sweet and nice romances are lovely and I am all for them, they are not very compelling or interesting. It's like the first sentence of Anna Karenina: "Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way." It's the same with fictional romances. (Of course, framing matters. I do not like it too much if a toxic romance is very much romanticized and portrayed like the stuff one of the couple or both are doing. 50 Shades is ofc a classic example but yes, there are major such issues with Belle & Rumple too and one reason why I kind of wilfully ignore the show nowadays and focus on fanfics where these issues are actually handled, one way or another. At least in the works I like to read. Like, I am perfectly fine with a disturbing romance if/when it is framed as one; this is no good but people choose this romance anyway. Not like "hey, these disturbing things ARE good and not disturbing at all!" One example is from Borgias, Cesare and Lucrezia; that "romance" is absolutely horrible but it is portrayed as such. Meaning, you can see why it happens and why characters choose it and why they are drawn to each other; but at the same time show does make it clear that it is wrong, disturbing and toxic.)

[@gisela_oliveira]

what they needed to do was: redeem Rumple by killing him (when he killed Pan), because that was a prove of his change: it was selflesss and brave and a good act. Belle had truly made him change, and his love for her, Neil and Henry was shown by him accepting the profecy and sacrificing himself for the family. If, after that, they had made Belle move on and create a new life, joining the family, maybe she could be pregnant there, it would make a great story.

[@ahoy1236]

Thank you! I completly agree. I watched the show when it aired as a teen, and while watching seasons 1, 2 and 3 really liked them, really liked the building of their relationship, and saw where the writers wanted to take the characters, progress wise. And then it became a trainwreck! The dagger broke me and honestly the show became so bananas I didn't even last longer than season 4 part one. I just got so sick of the incosistant writing and the destruction of the character of Belle, who was my favorite. I identified with her greatly as someone who is also good at recognizing the potential in people, but they ruined her for plot purposes, and honestly that whole chararter is one big waste of potential. Thing is, I was always team Belle. In seasons 1-3 I was able to believe that while he was by no means perfect, and she can probably do better, she loves him and he tries hard for her. But once he started to lie about the dagger I just lost all respect for him. I had a fall out with a fellow fan of their relationship, who unlike me was team Rumple and liked their relationship from his angle, and, no, how can you excuse all the crap that he does? How can you possibly not see that Belle deserves better? I honestly, out of spite, shipped the hell out of Belle and Will lol even though we were given like 2 minutes of that in total. She should have been with him. I am happy to say that I left my romanticising broken men days behind (it was a teen thing for me mostly) and there's nothing more attractive than a stable, kind, trustworthy man :)

[@nanalove3819]

I remember talking about how toxic their relationship was, and someone responded "oh no, you can see there are still love, it is not over yet, my husband and I were at a place like that and now we're fine". It was after Rumple kidnapped Belle to keep her safe, or something like that. Also we are talking of a couple where one of them decided to goes under a sleeping curse and sleep eternally to escape the other. I'm pretty sure there is nothing normal in that.

[@eleonorepb4565]

Even as a child I tought that this relationship was weird

[@katamyvega]

My perspective on their relationship was that the show did an excellent depiction a toxic relationship, and it was very relatable for those that have been trapped in that pattern.

[@PersonallyPerhaps]

6:56 After I saw him come back I quit but once I came back and even after he was in control he wanted to be evil making his “ sacrifice” pointless which really bugged me.

[@rociohernandez3077]

I gotta be honest, once we reached season 6 Rumbelle was still my favorite ship on the show, but this time for the wrong reasons. I used to really like Mary Margaret and David, their "love conquers all" and being a good loving family was great. Then that became their ONE thing and they got suuuuper boring. I enjoyed Emma's enemisty with Hook in season 2 and tentative liking in season 3. I also really liked her chemistry with Neal and wanted to see more of this co-parent situation with everybody and Henry. Then Emma started putting Hook above everybody else, including her own son, despite Hook also keeping a bunch of secrets from her and he started to annoy me. Rumple and Belle were my favorites tho because Rumple was a fun character and I liked that he gave special treatment to Belle, like if there is anything or anyone he could become better for it was her. Then the whole recycling mess happened, and they also got annoying but their chemistry was SO GOOD (especially compared to the others)I just kept hoping for better development. she can chose to leave him if she wants.) But also Baelfire's whole issue of ending alone in this world was because of Hook. I'll stop talking now, this show became such a mess I could go on a three hour rant about it. Sigh it had so much potential 😢 I miss being excited to watch a new episode

[@lstarsabb]

Yes as human's we love mess and drama so yes i love rumple and belle together for the show, but in real life i would feel the same way as Serena.

[@iri02802]

This is why fanfiction is so amazing. There are some really great fanfics out there that improve Rumple's and Belle's relationship and character.

[@MistySophie]

The writers always return to Rumple being the villain, not just kinda bad but still on the good side of heroes, but actually being the main force behind other villains, really ruined it for me.

[@taaya6037]

While I hate a lot of what Rumple did and gosh, I wished, the writers would've just ended the whole Dark One thing with him being reunited with Belle after the Zelena-storyline and, with him being reborn, true love's kiss working again, freeing him from the curse in a GOOD way, ... I also feel like I understand why he clinged to power and chose power over Belle time and again. It's not like anyone ever showed him that he could be happy without it. Oh, sure, he could have some smoochies with Belle without her getting angry and shutting him out every five minutes. But the town was CONSTANTLY in danger, like, the second the last half-season baddie was defeated, the next thing happened. And he HAD been a good person before the curse and doing the right things the right way, trying to help his father and trying to be there for his family, failed him and always left him in a worse position than before. And then even the heroes constantly need his help. They can't find their loved ones without him, they can't keep ogres from killing their peasants without him, ... Oh, sometimes he manifactured the situation, because he needed something for his plan to find Bae again, sure, but not always. And even in Storybrooke it's still the same and even when he tells them he wants to be left alone and they should deal with their own sh*t, they still come for his help. So, I understand if he feels like his power is the only thing making sure he doesn't lose everything to a greater degree than he does because of people not accepting him. And I feel like ... here Rumple is actually too good for Belle. Because she DOES know about some of his past (he literally told her magic/power is a crutch he doesn't know how to live without, and she warms up to that for a few scenes only to forget it and it never being mentioned again), and could've read all the rest in the book. And at least on screen she's not going "Oh, okay, you have trauma, let's research ways how to create protections that work without dark magic or give you power that doesn't come from the curse". I mean, we don't know if any such possibilities would have existed. But she's not understanding, she wants him to behave like she demands from him and if he doesn't, she's withdrawing her affections. It's not all her fault that they end in this vicious circle of both breaking each other's heart again and again. They both go about this in a very toxic way. And the show never even touched the issue of him literally being brainwashed by the curse for ... how long? Centuries? Like ... they dropped the bomb via Emma getting brainwashed, and never even considered that with that they change Rumple's ENTIRE character, because we then suddenly learn that he probably never had a chance, let alone choice, anyway (except in the one moment of true love's kiss)??? And I hate how with all that to me it actually feels like they never stood a chance for a proper, healthy relationship. They wanted us to ship Rumbelle so badly, (and for a while I did), but then they gave him this huge trauma that can understandably not be overcome without some sort of therapy (and, as I said, later even showed us that thanks to this curse even that wouldn't have been enough up until the moment he would be freed from it and the brainwashing), and had Belle be this woman on a pedestal, who wanted results but didn't support him throughout the work it would have taken to get to the results she demands, and ... Gosh, this whole thing is so much more messed up than one initially realizes and it gets worse and worse the more one thinks about it. If only they had at least noticed how they wrote themselves into a corner they couldn't get out of, acknowledged it and then ended the relationship for good instead of trying to force it to become THE love story of the show, even above Emma/Hook. There was no chance in hell of that not romantasising toxic behaviour - in BOTH of them.

[@taaya6037]

(But I have to say, I hated Will Scarlet, too. He was just a very uncomfortable character to me. Maybe they should've given Belle a cute, nice, book-loving nerd. Rupert Giles style. That might have worked out. But it seems Belle actually had a bad boy thing running, which is odd for someone who punishes her resident bad boy whenever he does something bad.)

[@bia5141]

I remember being so fascinated by their dynamics but then again i was 15 and a big fan of beauty and the beast story anyway, so ya 😂

[@PaintingMeJosh]

I don't know if this idea would actually work, but it's a thought. It'd have to be handled with significantly more care than what the writers did, though. I think a potential fix for their relationship (without really altering too much) would be to make it clearer that the Dark One powers are a corruptive force and extremely addictive (my interpretation of the later seasons is that this part of my idea is what the writers were going for but just didn't know how to execute it well). Anyway, Rumple in the present day is hundreds of years old because of the Dark One powers. Similarly, Smeagol/Gollum from Lord of the Rings was immortalized by the One Ring and so severely corrupted by its magic that he became unrecognizable from his original human form. The One Ring became Smeagol's entire reason for living, AKA an extremely addictive force. The parallels between Smeagol and Rumplestiltskin are strong, and had the writers really leaned into this rather than making that Rumple loved power more than Belle, then perhaps his frequent relapses could've been presented as more of a genuine struggle of deep rooted addiction and behavioral habits. And they'd have to make it that Belle was willingly to stick around and help him overcome all that, but her own flaw in the relationship would be how hard she finds it to keep her patience and not villainize him for the corruption that was never his fault to begin with.

[@tomatosoup1304]

What's wild is they were really cute at first. Their dynamic was sweet but even young me was sick of Belle going back to Rumple

[@LuckyLadybug66]

So, so agree with this video! The absolute mess they made of the pairing after the halfway point of season 3 is one of the biggest reasons I rejected the rest of the show. I wrote a series of short stories branching off from that season 3 point where things go much differently for them and everyone. I just could not accept the trash they made out of something that started so beautifully.

[@Zuyuri]

I HATED this couple with a passion.

[@SerenaSkybourne]

they were DISGUSTING

[@JabamiLain]

​@@SerenaSkybourne sorry for the following copy and paste: -I guess I'm not fully out of my teenage mindset yet. I'll be honest, because she's technically an adult, I do understand the problem that should have been addressed, but I don't see the ship as disgusting, because she did abandon him when it became too much, and only accepted him back when he fixed himself. At least I realized Henry was right to be angry and rude against Regina in season 2. Guess that means I'm making progress ?

[@ArnellaMaturin]

In my mind canon, the show ended when Rumpel sacrificed himself.

[@BetterWithBob]

Captain Swan was the most disturbing one. At least Belle/Rumple had the disturbing parts somewhat acknowledged in universe, and Rumple had the justification of a literal dark entity controlling his body, and Belle being the positive influence that helped him fight it. Emma/Hook on the other hand? Began with Hook basically demanding that Emma kiss him because he saved her father's life (retroactively she was obviously into it but not a good look) and beforehand he'd been her enemy, and made a rape joke while holding a sword over her. And his past included stealing another man's wife and helping her abandon their son, with Hook choosing to let Rumple believe that Milah had been kidnapped and was going to be gang raped by his crew, and we're supposed to just sidestep all this once Emma hooks up with him. And when Hook was a Dark One, he outright tells Emma she was "just a pretty blonde distraction" and summons all the previous Dark Ones to hurt her and her family. When Emma and Rumple were Dark Ones, even they wouldn't dream of hurting the ones they loved. Emma is also so disturbingly obsessed with him that she breaks the laws of nature and magic twice, the second time of which she also uses Belle as leverage to get Rumple to do as she wishes (implying she's AOK letting him lie to Belle if she can get what she wants out of it). Other episodes hammer it in how death should be respected and not meddled with, and Emma just crosses several moral lines to get her man back. Then it's revealed he murdered her grandfather, not to mention his own father, and it's all sidestepped to prop them up as this epic romance

[@AngeleHatton]

Love your videos! I haven't seen very much of this show but I'm still interested to hear your thoughts

[@sammillward62]

I really think it was a mistake for them to have brought him back after he sacrificed himself. I feel at that point they had nothing else to really do with his character and his arc was complete. Plus they could have still had him appear in flashbacks after that anyways.

[@LynnaKatriel]

Rumplestiltskin was such a fascinating character, but it became clear to me that the writers were more interested in milking his character for endless forced drama rather than exploring his nuances in a healthy and interesting way. This was mostly in the moment when he was beating up that guy, Belle liked it, and he was thrilled, showing that he had never wanted to be good, he just wanted Belle's attention no matter the cost. He never loved her for who she was, he just loved the idea of a pretty woman liking him. Gross.

[@BG12sofia]

Yeah, if I was kinda okay with the relationship during the first seasons, but season 5 and 6 killed it stone dead for me. By that point, it was absolutely an abusive relationship, to the point that Belle had to give up their son in order to save him from the situation - and I'll never forgive the writers for punishing her narratively for that decision. Even the "redemption" by the end of the season was just Rumple deciding to do the right thing for once, after doing the wrong thing over and over again, making everything worse. On the other hand, I agree with you that killing off Neal was a mistake. I think he would have been okay with Emma and Hook's relationship, eventually, and I would have liked to see him and Emma (and Regina) co-parenting Henry.

[@brandivermillion3453]

2:44 because nearly everyone deserves the chance to be loved by someone. And sometimes it’s that love they get that brings the around.

[@amourtabb7859]

I had the same oppinion on my rewatch. Belle and Rumple had potential in the beginning but the dynamic was always kinda off. I can think of a single thing belle liked about the beast besides that he might change for her. What good moments did they share that weren't him very reluctantly deciding to do the right thing? Snow and charming like fighting bad guys. Ariel and eric wanna see the world. Belle and rumple didnt have that

[@bridgetveralidaine3761]

Belle and Rumple and Emma and Hook were both toxic, soap opera relationships geared toward rabid teenage fans that fawned over the female protagonist being special and the only one determined to "save their love interest from the darkness". It's an overused - and misused - trope. Both Belle and Emma were spunky characters that ended up weakened and watered-down by their husbands, conforming to a facade of domesticity as if it were character growth. (I have nothing against traditional domestic roles and if it had fit the characters, I would celebrate it.) The notion that Emma's happy ending was marriage and a baby with a man that relentlessly pursued her, and in my own personal head canon, had cursed her (in Neverland, which has magic that runs on belief, he said that one day she would be with him because she wants to be. That forever stuck in my mind as a spell that he cast, taking advantage of Neverland's power.) At the end, instead of being with her family that she spent 28 years without, and 7ish years fighting to save... she is living in another realm with Hook. She became obsessed with him, addicted, and lost herself somewhere along the way. Something is wonky there. Belle had been a strong-willed, solid hero with intelligence. Then she became a fearful, lovesick lost girl that couldn't use her brain to see the unchanging patterns of Rumple's behaviour and remove herself from a tragic tale of his own making. It would have been better, happier, and simultaneously more heartbreaking, if her story had been along the lines of "I love you, I will always love you, but I have to do it away from you because you are a danger to everyone you meet, including yourself." You still get the message of true love, the price of love being loss, and seeing someone able to love, without sacrificing who they are in the process.

[@jackiesliterarycorner]

I was one of the Rumbelle shippers and I kept wanting them to work. It was so frustrating that the writers ruined them, but I think the writers thought fans liked him bad and that fans loved him and Rumbelle.

[@jasper3033]

Amazing!

[@ko379]

i was soooo devastated by this ship. i love a beauty and the beast story, so i was really excited and really shipped them! I thought rumple choosing power or self preservation over love was a pattern (not going with Neal to land without magic, and pushing belle away when she gives him true love's kiss), and the point was him learning to overcome that pattern - seeking out his son and learning to accept and give love. i kept holding on, hoping the arc would get better and he'd stop lying, and honestly i had to give up on them - but in my headcanon, the arc was fire and i could ship them

[@katarinakrnjevic8183]

I never liked Belle and Rumple as a couple . They break up and come back together so many times. Rumple actually got more chemistry with Cora (the one played by Barbara Hershey)Regina and Zelena.

[@BixLovesMiley]

Yes exactly!!!!! Honestly Rumbelle is a deep and dirty rabbit hole with so much details that can enrage me. What made me saddest in season 4/5/6 is that Belle also was a contibutor to the bad patterns: whenever Rumple did come clean with her, sometimes even voluntarily, she would get really angry and storm out, thereby punishing him for being honest with her. I guess you could praise her for setting a boundary with him, but since she never stuck with those boundaries, she essentially just encouraged him to be more secretive the next time. Like you said, in the earlier seasons it was this hopeful (if rose-tinted) portrayal of her love bringing out his best and stabilizing him on his journey towards a less selfish and even altruistic road. But then they had to ruin everything because they couldn't just leave Rumple out. (Probably because of contracts, I think all main actors were signed for six seasons) (But srsly Rumple could have stayed an important character through the flashbacks!) and then not knowing what to do with him on the good side of things. Regina had also been redeemed, and the seasonal villians were honestly too weak to pose a threat, had Rumple been on the heroe's side from then on. Which over all is just a testament to the poor writing in the latter seasons... But what else is new?

[@Flapperdame16]

This is basically why Robert Carlyle hated his own character arc after season 3. He himself always said the show went on for too long AND Rumple lost his motivation once he lost Neal/Baelfire. Carlyle wasnt afraid to voice his concerns to the producers and because he simply disagreed with them, the writers punished the character. Carlyle had the option to leave after season 6, BUT stayed on for securing income for his family. He wanted to be on a long tunning show so the royalties would secure him to be more choosey for his projects and he could do more indie films.

[@jazzphotos]

I haaaaated Belle & Rumpelstiltskin when they were together. Bell by herself is not the most interesting, but they're both so annoying when they're together. Every time Bell says " I know there's good in you!", I want to slap her. They are toxic in an insufferable way vs an entertaining "I want all the tea" way. And their chemistry is terrible....... I really wish the series had them develop a friendship instead of a romantic relationship, so that they could explore relationships with different people that were better for them. I think a proper friendship would have been much better for both characters. Rumple is the type of guy who didn't really have friends for a long time because of his reputation for being a coward, and then the dark one. And if you take info from the animated beauty and the beast, Bell didn't really have friends before she was the beast's prisoner because she was a bookish loner. Both of these characters needed a friend more than a lover.

[@Sonjayu]

Notice how only once she's dead that he actually starts to connect with people and realise that there's good in others, too and that people are more than means to an end and he can actually have friends.

[@gabrielleduplessis7388]

While I did not want them together, I liked how the love of their son brought them back together. I felt it made sense that the more Rumple fought to make sure Gideon does not end up like him, he tried to be better and stick to that. I just wish be felt the same about Neal.

[@sannh]

It's actually not good to be together just because you have a child. In real life it means the child will grow up in a home with conflict.

[@gabrielleduplessis7388]

@@sannh i agree. I felt it was more than just that in their case. I don’t know.

[@oliviarogers2808]

Their relationship was my favorite part of the show. It was the most complex, I'm sure very relatable to a lot of people, and it’s a unique spin on the story. I wasn't a fan of how S4-6 handled them, I think they started running them off a cliff for the sake of drama, but they honestly had my favorite scenes in the whole show.

[@FlameRaven]

if their relationship is relatable i'd advise anyone in that situation to run

[@iri02802]

I loved Rumplestilskin and Belle until season 3. Than it went really downhill from there (it already went downhill before but than it became awful). I totally blamed the writers.

[@TheCrayonMaster]

I hate Rumple and Belle together. She should have left him permanently

[@Lanoira13]

Honestly it drives me crazy because I feel they could've sold Rumple's character as a flawed admittedly kinda evil man trying his best to be good by just giving him better motivations/reasonings and making him more honest with the people he truly trusts- initially exclusively Belle (maybe even have him be uncharacteristically honest with her early on before she knows/the show reveals their past, showing her trusts her so implicitly he doesn't even think about it), then probably Emma as she proves herself exceptionally trustworthy, then Henry, and eventually to a lesser extent Regina and the Charmings. Sure have him lie to everyone else, but it would be so much more gripping if everytime he was on some sketchy little "I'm doing what's best for everyone without their knowledge bc they're all stupid and I am essentially a god" plots that Belle couldn't know about for plot reasons, Rumple was actively TRYING to pull her aside and tell her ALONE but she was with a friend, or their new family was fawning over her trying to make her feel included. And then 3 weeks later, she's rightfully pissed he was doing something stupidly immoral behind her back that obviously had unintended consequences she would've seen coming a mile away accidentally propelling the plot and he's like "LOOK I'M SORRY! THEY WERE TAKING YOU DRESS SHOPPING, BELLE, I DIDN'T WANNA RUIN YOUR GOOD TIME! I'M A GOOD HUSBAND, NOT A GOOD MAN, YOU KNEW THIS WHEN YOU MARRIED ME!" Or even better have Rumple sit Belle down and talk through his thought processes and reasonings for why what he's doing is the most likely best case scenario and convince/corrupt her of some of his plots. They would've been such a Mischief Power Couple. Also the Lacey subplot should've started with 1-Rumple relapsing into disproportionate violent responses after seeing Lacey's partner mistreating/disrespecting her somewhere and confronting the guy because he wants the best for Belle even if that's not him, 2- Rumple going along with the bad boy act to get Lacey to love him so he can cure her with true love's kiss knowing it's wrong and being worried about how uncomfortable he knows Belle is going to be with the situation when she gets her memories back, and 3- Rumple eventually breaking and opening up to Lacey about everything (bc that's his girl he can't bare not being honest with his girl for this long!) and when he sees the conflicted disappointment in her eyes at seeing him for who he really is, a vulnerable worried man who loves her very much, he throws a hail mary and goes in for a kiss, pulling her in mostly but letting her seal the deal, and boom. Then have Belle reflect on her repressed urges and interest in domineering volatile men that surfaced with her Storybrooke persona, mostly because that arc would've been so interesting to me.

[@Jay.T4NA]

Loooool I’ll see myself out, I hear everything you said but I can’t help but love them, especially how much he loves her. When he wants the chipped cup from Regina 😭😭😭😭