One BIG LIE About the Golf Swing! - Golf Test Dummy

[@wg959]

Bedankt

[@GolfTestDummy]

Bedankt W G!

[@legend9018]

Another great video. There are so many instructors preaching so many different things it’s insane out there. Some are so focused on using the ground and that being your speed source while others are saying that most of your speed comes from your arms, wrists and hands! The “lag” instruction is often either miscommunicated by the instructor or misapplied by the student. Nobody holds lag all the way through the swing. Everyone flips in the golf swing, you have to flip and release those wrist angles it’s just where you do it in the swing that is the critical part.

[@GolfTestDummy]

Yep. Lag is like a savings account. Sure, you need to store up in preparation, but if you never actually make a withdrawal and use it, what good is it?

[@jtboise1]

Just a quick follow-up comment. Took this to the driving range and instantly created a swing that works for all my clubs (except the driver). I found I had to think hard about creating and keeping lag only because I tend to release too early - CHUNK! Once I did that and made sure I did not move my center focus on the backswing, everything went great. Took it to the course and scored par on 9 holes. All these years I've been trying to create that natural in to out path and failed terribly until I saw this video. Many thanks to you. I now actually enjoy this game.

[@GolfTestDummy]

Haha, that's fantastic JT. Great to hear.

[@Pooler29]

When I came across Monte Scheinblum's No Turn Cast Drill video 5 yrs ago...I went from a 16 hcap to a 10 in 3 months

[@GolfTestDummy]

Point made, right? No telling how many swings "hold the lag" has wrecked.

[@James_Vaughn]

Looks like you have figured out the JVGA swing. I've been crushing the ball doing the same thing, but with a different focus. I pivot my weight onto my left side, and keep it there. Closed shoulders, no turn. To start the swing I basically hammer curl the club up to the top with my trail arm, my left shoulder being the unmoving (as far as I can tell) fulcrum. From there it's like I'm trying to throw the club down to the ground at my back foot as hard as I can. Like you're showing here, I'm getting a lot more distance with better accuracy.

[@GolfTestDummy]

There's definitely some JVGA in there.

[@louislane1968]

Your videos are very informative involving great detail. I do however feel the need to point out a pretty big omission in this one. Jack Nicklaus stated you can not release the club too early from the top, which you did mention. The omission is the importance of the need to move to your lead side in so doing. You must not hang back and release from your trail side! I’ll take it a step further and state you must move to your lead side before the club head reaches its final position at the top of the backswing. Moe Norman might be the best example of this elite move!

[@stephen-vn7qy]

Took me ten years to figure this out, but I release my right lower arm, maintain my right wrist angle, while keeping my back to the target, like a right arm throwing action. Allow the body to follow. Thanks.😊🎉

[@jawjuh1005]

Love the no turn cast drill reference! I think the more you hold the lag the more you lose it. I keep my wrists turned off and flexible and turn my body. The club snaps through. On vid I have plenty of lag. So I’m passive about it but there are plenty of great players who have active wrists throwing the clubhead through the ball. It’s only casting if the body stops. IMO.

[@GolfTestDummy]

Yep, and if the shoulder comes out, over the top.

[@jawjuh1005]

@@GolfTestDummy so true

[@lageronimo8012]

Saved this video. Still watch it from time to time. Dan Dalton (PGA KZbin) confirms this the best and I use this in my swing still.

[@rodrig13]

I gained 12 mph of club speed with driver doing No Turn/Cast. I didn’t do any speed training or work out in any way. Went from a 24 handicap index down to 5 in 3 years of watching Monte’s instructional stuff.

[@GolfTestDummy]

Well if that's not a great review, I don't know what is, haha. That's amazing.

[@543whitey]

very Edbladish, using the arms vs body

[@lorendwilson]

That is Tom Tomasello, a hands throw right from the top keeping the right hip back. club head path is out to right field. Align the club face in a planned impact position before gripping it. I use that. But the club head always outraces the hands and the flat left wrist becomes cupped costing distance. You have to keep the right wrist bent at least until impact and separation of ball.

[@josephmaguire576]

I came across your channel because I’m interested in the JVGA system I got back playing golf during COVID after not playing for 10 years

[@GolfTestDummy]

Glad to hear it, and I hope you enjoy!

[@starks1974]

Love Monte! I've done the wall drill before which really helped, throwing the club down and keeping it on the wall as long as possible. I'll have to revisit that drill as the other billion other swing thoughts flood my head. Question on your backswing. How do you determine when to stop? I did an instruction last week and didn't realize how far I was extending back, almost reverse K'ing.

[@GolfTestDummy]

Great question, here's a horrible answer... haha. It's different for everybody and it's an individual thing I think. I'm no expert, but in my opinion, most people can find a point in their backswing where, once you go past it, you can tell there's a breakdown. A point at which your position and leverage have hit optimal, and then gone past it, becoming less efficient. Maybe try swinging back and trying to feel that point consciously, and learn it through repetition.

[@pastorjason4337]

Check out Steve Pratt Golf. He teaches this as well and explains you can' cast the club if you continue to turn. Worth a look.

[@josephmaguire576]

Just had knee surgery in November & was looking 1) improve my game 2) try to find a swing that would not hurt my knee

[@bkelso52]

Why aren’t you continuing with this methodology? You’re killing it and look great!

[@GolfTestDummy]

The short answer, I guess, is: Viewers lose interest and want to see me light myself on fire, haha.

[@1upadventures]

“Holding” the lag has ruined my swing for decades now. It’s funny that you made this video because a couple of months my buddies asked what I changed in my swing. I told them I just started doing the opposite of what I used to work on. Keeping the angle forces the hands out and leads the hosel into the ball…not good (and saps power). DeChambeau also talks about trying to throw away all the angles behind him. Trying to throw while turning doesn’t mean you’re actually doing it, but it means you’re not trying to hold it.

[@GolfTestDummy]

Exactly! I mentioned that also, that I'll TRY, but I won't be able to. When we start playing golf, we're not holding any angles. We're trying to guide the club into the ball. Usually, people start of steep and choppy, but once you learn a more shallow approach into the ball, you can employ that same "throw away" of the angles and get very good results.

[@kennyg63]

I totally agree with your findings. However I believe the trail elbow is a much greater power source than the wrists. And for what you describe to work you have to get your weight foward.

[@GolfTestDummy]

Yep, and like I said in the video, even when I try to throw the angles away, I won't be able to.

[@kennyg63]

@@GolfTestDummy A follow up to this. I had tremendous success with this outdoors. Then for some reason I hit the ball poorly indoors. I even shanked a few. I took a break and tried again focusing on moving my lower body through the shot and it worked again. Curious what your thoughts are.

[@GolfTestDummy]

When I was experimenting with this originally, I had the same thing happen. For me, when I didn't make a full turn back, and my arms got disconnected from my chest, that's when it crashed. Keeping my hands in front of me fixed it.

[@kennyg63]

@@GolfTestDummy keeping the hands in front? Do you mean avoid taking the club too inside?

[@GolfTestDummy]

I mean letting your hands get behind you. On the takeaway and the downswing, that triangle made by my arms, I don't want that getting skewed and out of sync.

[@1DCCX]

Undoing what you load up on the backswing, staying more or less cantered gives you a very neutral swing. Great for driver. Think Greg Norman lining the shaft up not leaning it. For every degree of ‘holding’ lag, you are that degree off neutral and a square clubface, straight shot. So you have to rotate the shaft shallow a corresponding degree, and at some point close the face the same degree, and extend the right arm the same degree. Most amateurs just hold the left wrist cock only and don’t do the other mitigating factors, and so, for every degree held of that left wrist without mitigation they are the corresponding degree open face steep steep angle of attack out to in You can never do only 1 thing in a golf swing away from ‘neutral’.

[@1DCCX]

The optical illusion is and isn’t(!). It is, in that if you are focused on looking at the angle between left wrist and club it isn’t as acute. It isn’t, in that it is an acceleration breaker and keeps the clubhead behind and lagging in time.

[@mrkipling3841]

This is excellent! There was a similar concept by overhand golf. And when you try this, you can definately get more speed. Good work!

[@GolfTestDummy]

Thanks K! More like this coming. Already filmed and in the can.

[@howardphillips8513]

I think there is a film of Mike Dunaway with Mike Austin saying and demonstrating the same point.

[@joehernandez5600]

Hey Chad. Great stuff. Are you focusing on turning while you’re throwing away the angle?

[@GolfTestDummy]

Thanks Joe. I don't really have to, it just kind of happens. That's been my personal experience.

[@joehernandez5600]

@@GolfTestDummy Interesting. I will give it a try. I played 9 holes with a young professional yesterday. The guy weighs 125 soaking wet and was hitting bombs. On the range before the round he saw my pull hook a few balls. He told me to focus on turning from the top while keeping right wrist angle and don’t let arms catch up with the sternum. I have never hit the ball so well, so straight and so long. But, I felt like I could throw away the angle from the top like you explain in your video. There’s something there.

[@GolfTestDummy]

I think it's all relative, you know? I think of it like getting directions. You're in the car, and you ask somebody how to get to the steakhouse that's over on 3rd St. For you, that might be a left on Main, left on Central, right on Mill St., and then left on 3rd. But for somebody trying to get to the same steakhouse, only they're starting on the opposite side of town...... it's a completely different set of directions, even though the destination is exactly the same. So maybe he saw some tendencies that created that recipe for you. Also, for someone holding the angles, and trying to turn, there are different axis' in my experience. One way to turn would be at the hips, which might have a tendency to be more horizontal in nature, and that could lead to the trail shoulder coming around prematurely, and a big slice. Another way to turn would be shoulder turn, but not AROUND. Instead, a turn that is more vertical, where the trail shoulder drops DOWN, instead of around. That still keeps the shoulder line closed or square in the beginning, which is a good thing.

[@joehernandez5600]

@@GolfTestDummy good points. To feel you described in the video kind of reminds me of overhand golf approach. whenever I’m really struggling to hit the ball solid going back to that approach always seems to help get me back on track. But Scott always emphasizes the turn while throwing the arms down to hit the imaginary ball at waist high. I guess it’s similar. Anyhow, great stuff on your videos, as always. Keeps me thinking and trying new things.

[@johncappella1216]

Best tip ever, new to your channel, so hope I'm not redundant, but what's your take on stack and tilt, I watch Tom Saguto's channel, makes it look so easy, I just can't rotate my body through like they want, I'm 71 maybe that has something to do with it, lol

[@GolfTestDummy]

John, I'm 44, but my "mileage" has been rougher than most. I was a brick and block mason for years. I had back trouble for the first 4 days of trying SNT, and it was getting worse, so I stopped.

[@davidstockman9277]

Manual Torre basically. Good video

[@jtboise1]

Yup. The only universal swing is the one that works for you. I've adopted the Steve Johnston Eureka stance and combined it with the Marcus Edblad powerful trail hand in control swing. Easy on my body and very easy to keep the club coming down and not out. I love it because it works. I never think about lag. Golf instructors make it impossible so they can stay in business. Like medicine, if they cured you, they lose business. Yup. Just find your swing and there's really no need to swing hard. Love your channel.

[@vicreichle2931]

Always strikes me with golf, that no matter how different the instructions, most really come down to the same thing...impact position.

[@GolfTestDummy]

It's really the only universal common denominator, and because of that, it's not open to interpretation or perversion.

[@thomasfraser9072]

Hi Chad thanks for sharing. OK I think you are saying that at the top of your swing you are are simply throwing the club head down to the ball and the rest will follow. Correct? Well not necessarily. However If you can become a consistent with your new swing thought and you continue to roll your butt at the same time you feel you are throwing your club head down and through the ball I have no disagreement in what you are saying and keep up the good work.

[@GolfTestDummy]

Thanks Thomas. I'm not necessarily throwing hard in a particular direction. I'm just not trying to keep my wrists cocked until the last second. I'm releasing the club from the top.

[@thomasfraser9072]

@@GolfTestDummy sorry but i thought the point of your video was you cannot possibly control and keep your wrists cocked until the last moment. Correct? I agree with you one hundred percent. This is why I simply pull the butt of my club sideways with the power of both my hands equally together as I feel my personal butt rolling back as well. At the top of my downswing I then pull the butt of my club with the powers of both my hands as my physical butt is rolling in the other direction to finish my swing. If whatever you are doing proves to be valuable to you; please don’t take my advice. However if what you feel you are doing fails you at some point I hope you try my ‘2 butt golf swing’ for yourself and let me know if it works consistently for you as it does for me as recently I gained 4 pars in 9 holes with fewer boggies added to my score. Cheers ⛳️😃👍🥂

[@kevinhelton734]

Great thought and solidly explained tip! In a sense, more of an arm swing than a body turn. Easier to time without putting too much thought into it. Btw, you'll never guess what Seinfeld episode was on when i started watching this. On e of my favorites.

[@GolfTestDummy]

Kramer and the whale?

[@mslu62]

The confusion is in the terminology. Throw the club to some simply means increasing the angle between the trail upper arm and the forearm. Gears has proven this move amongst the best pga tour players. This is a shallowing move that allows lag to be maintained and an inside approach. Look at it like a bicep uncurl at the top while recentering. This in no way means throwing away the wrist angle. That is for goat humping flippers. Try it Chad. A slight trail arm curl in the takeaway gets the club up on plane in the backswing as opposed to taking it in side. A slight trail arm uncurl while recentering does shallow the club. You must rotate and you may need to strengthen your grip. It was a gold nugget move for me that has definitely stood the test of time. I hope it will be for you. Thanks Chad

[@GolfTestDummy]

Agreed Mike. I keep grinding every day.

[@prestonnull4009]

Wow really interesting concept. Need to go to range and try this. Thanks for information.

[@GolfTestDummy]

Go get em Preston.

[@jimmcewen9351]

You also see no over rotating with the lower body, keeping it simple, let’s see that accuracy on the course

[@GolfTestDummy]

Thanks Jim. Course work coming soon. Busy schedules at the moment.

[@johnnyhicks2386]

One of the best and honest golf tips I have seen in a long while and very well explained.

[@GolfTestDummy]

Very much appreciated Johnny!

[@tsc6454]

This is very similar to what the guy at overhand golf suggests as well. Great video you should check out his early videos. He's went dark but the videos are still up

[@GolfTestDummy]

I've seen a lot of his stuff in the past. He was really making waves on KZbin.

[@tsc6454]

@@GolfTestDummy I thought I was the only one who watched him! I just found your channel recently and have really enjoyed the content!!

[@GolfTestDummy]

Thanks a ton. I'll keep making this crap if yall keep watching.

[@tsc6454]

@@GolfTestDummy will I'm definitely watching and I know how you feel. My son and I were asked to start a channel late last year..... long story short the people who asked us to start us backed out by wet decided to do it on our own. You content is very well presented and straight forward so I know the amount of time you're putting in! Check us out if you have a chance kzbin.info/door/vetc1ADeZ1l4mKm05HWiDQ Looking forward to your next video!

[@MH-ov9tu]

I would sure like to see ya do more videos on the golf course. I do like to watch your content and theories.

[@GolfTestDummy]

I will be putting out some course stuff soon. My work schedule has been busy and I'm waiting on the weather to break a bit, but some course work and short game soon.

[@roys4363]

Thats basically what I've been doing folding right arm up at a 45 degree angle then going straight down and trying to keep body still it does work two rounds using this with great results.

[@GolfTestDummy]

Preach it Roy!

[@josephmaguire576]

Just wondering if you ever heard of Lever golf…I was @ the LIV tournament in Miami & meet this man who talked to me about his swing technique

[@GolfTestDummy]

I haven't heard of a method called Lever Golf specifically by name. I'll have to look that one up.

[@sarata13]

Looking forward to more on this! Thanks, for sharing…stay cool 👍

[@GolfTestDummy]

I appreciate that, thanks so much.

[@Criscross292]

An older gentleman (Pro Instructor) on KZbin has a video that talks about how way back in the Harry Vardon days, they would teach the following- Imagine a wooden stake on the ground that’s parallel to your feet and positioned 2 feet behind your right foot. On the downswing, imagine hammering the top of that stake with your clubhead.

[@GolfTestDummy]

That's a pretty powerful visual. Very cool.

[@Criscross292]

@@GolfTestDummy Here’s the video. Definitely worth watching. He talks about it at the 1:00 min mark. kzbin.info/www/bejne/immki4x_ebaCetk

[@SaintKimbo]

This is the same thing that Mike Austin does in his videos. He emphasizes the throwing of the club at the ball from the top, while pivoting of course.

[@GolfTestDummy]

Yep, love Mike Austin's stuff, and it's a much more natural thing for most of us to grasp.

[@danamcqueen6982]

Great stuff as always. I really liked the George Costanza reference.

[@GolfTestDummy]

Thanks Dana!

[@kbbvwelsh9334]

Smash factor 1.45 , good job!!

[@Koboltgolf]

If you sway just some inches to your trail side the Fatshot is always a thing. but if you stay centered by doing this its money. Have you been influenced by Tom Saguto? I can think that this cast move combined with Tom thought is golden. But I think you found a very functional swing, its very similar to my swing evolution, and its working, I started the year at 18.5, down to 10.1 now with a very messy putting game... (a center shaft putter is on the way)

[@GolfTestDummy]

I've watched some of Tom's videos, you bet. great channel and good personality.

[@jacobr4558]

wShauffelewhat is your swing speed?

[@billenright2788]

looks like what p. croker says too.

[@jtboise1]

I'm 69 and I've always thought the pro teachers make the golf swing so difficult with so many variables, that nobody could understand it or make it work as an amateur. You've worked with Jim Venetos and he - in a weird way - preaches what you say here. You just don't turn your body as he does at setup. I've worked with his method and concluded it's the easiest golf swing to execute because there's so little to think about. But while his method produces perfectly straight shots for me, for the life of me I can't make the ball draw or go where I want it to without changing my alignment stance dramatically. Headed to the range today to try your discovery. Something tells me after all my years of pursuit of the stupid golf swing, this just might work.

[@GolfTestDummy]

Thanks JT! More coming along this same vein, so stay tuned.

[@maeu59]

Check out Dan Alton golf, he talks about the folding point which is similar to what you're talking about

[@GolfTestDummy]

I'll check that out!

[@markcrabtree2613]

Been teaching John. Jacobs golf schools for 25 years. Preach this all the time

[@NeedaBoom]

I can hit all clubs like this but struggling with the driver. Possibly next vid?

[@GolfTestDummy]

It could be ball position. I'll be making a video on that soon.

[@lageronimo8012]

Please expand on the no turning.

[@GolfTestDummy]

Search KZbin for "no turn cast drill".

[@brianmoss9399]

Looking a lot like JVGA swing there but with the slight hip turn … 🤔

[@GolfTestDummy]

Still a big influence on my golf.

[@tdevdad]

I am definately gonna give this a go. I think I'm sort of doing this, but not fully. It reminds me somewhat of the Venetos method, too. Good job Chad.

[@amarug]

I think this might vary from person to person. Your swing looks really good and if I go frame-by-frame, you seem to end up with a pretty decent lag anyway. And physically, it IS necessary or you will end up with a horrible shot on average. So saying, that if you would succeed in doing what you say you are aiming at, i.e. "release all angles as soon as possible", you would not have decent shots. So I guess in your case, this slightly "paradox" swing thought gets you to the correct impact and for sure this might help others too, but I think your inference that lead to the title of this video "BIG LIE" is more of an artifact of the way your mind-body connection works (and it clearly is true for you), rather than some universal truth that you discovered. However you still end up with an important point here, that teaching should be much more individualized. For me, if I try this, I end up with the most horrible duffs you can imagine. The only way for me to hit clean shots is to think "hands always accelerate to be infront of the club", then I can make solid and repeatable swings. (Credits: 25 years of playing golf, degrees in mechanical engineering and PhD in Biomechanics)

[@GolfTestDummy]

Thanks Nemo. You're right on the points you made here. I'd say this though; I might not have said it enough, but I did try to make some of these points in the video. I do still maintain the lag as you said, but on one of my shots, I mentioned I was trying to throw away the lag, but I won't be able to do it. It's one of the things Monte Scheinblum talks about. And you're right that it's not for everybody. The beginning of the video was meant to be a qualifier in the sense that, this possible fix is geared toward helping a group of people that have spent a significant amount of time devoted to holding lag angles actively, and they're having issues as a result. It's not for everyone. My guess is, with so many instructors and online tips pushing "hold the lag", there are likely quite a few people that have heard it and been trying it, and struggling more often than not. So, for those people, I think this would qualify as a big lie.

[@amarug]

@@GolfTestDummy Thank you for your reply and yes, of course, if you put it like that, I certainly agree with you. And I also understand that you want to make a little bit provocative titles on youtube to attract people, I mean hey, it worked with me! ;) Maybe something you could find interesting are some ideas of John Erickson. He is a bit of a maverick, but I could imagine some of his ideas could work magic on some people. Search for "John Erickson orbit pull" there he explains this idea of really pulling the club through to create both feel for the clubface/accuracy and speed. Maybe it's also not for you, but somehow I had to think of him when I watched your video!

[@GolfTestDummy]

I'm definitely going to search that one. It sounds familiar, and the orbital pull already seems to make sense somehow before I even look into it.

[@3o1Golf]

people arr not holdng lagg since the are just not good at doing it. it is a very hard thing to do ^^ Great video :D

[@GolfTestDummy]

That's true, but if they're trying to hold it in, rather than allowing a release, I think that's what causes the issues. It may not actually happen, but the intention can be the killer.

[@3o1Golf]

@@GolfTestDummy true :) Btw i love how your sim looks now :D

[@GolfTestDummy]

Many thanks. Gonna try to keep evolving it and the camera angles to get better.

[@dougsudbury]

The release has nothing to do with lag. Let me explain, what I believe you are doing is un-cocking your hands. That is when your thumbs move up and down. Thumbs down releases the club head, not affecting lag. It is your trail wrist that controls lag. Take the club to the top and stop. Move your thumbs back and forth.......that's release. Now at the top straighten your trail wrist, that's what controls lag. Now go fool around with that and do a new video on what you have learned. Love your videos!!!

[@GolfTestDummy]

Thanks, Doug, but I'm not sure I'm following you. When you say thumbs down releases, do you mean the thumbs moving in relation to the fist? The reason I ask is because if I'm at the top, the trail arm is folded to some degree, and the difference between the length of the straight left arm and the bent trail arm creates the wrist cock in the lead hand. It has to cock, because the trail arm has shortened. To maintain lag in the traditional sense, the right arm must maintain that bend on the way down, which will also maintain lead wrist cock. This keeps the angle between the club shaft and lead arm, until the trail arm finally unfolds closer to impact, which also releases the wrist cock. If I try to move my thumbs down or away, the fist and wrist goes with it, which doesn't necessarily affect the trail arm bend. Both wrists can affect shaft to lead arm angle, based on how much I allow them to cock, but I'd say the biggest contributor to shaft and lead arm angle is the shortening of the trail arm because it bends at the elbow. If I made a bigger turn with my hips going back, that would allow the right arm to stay straighter, and then I would need the wrists to cock more to get the same lag angle. Right? Or am I misunderstanding?

[@dougsudbury]

@@GolfTestDummy Take the club to the top of the backswing and stop. your trail wrist will be bent back close to 90 degrees.. Your thumbs will be pointing close to the target. Now just move your thumbs away from the target while keeping your trail wrist at 90 degrees. [don't move your arms....demonstration purposes only.] The club head will move about 8 or so feet away from the target. That is release.. At this position you should still be maintaining as much trail wrist bend as possible. The bend in the trail wrist is the lag and the release is the speed. Phew, a picture really is worth a thousand words! Play with it young man.

[@thomasfraser9072]

Hi Chad congratulations! You are no longer forcing your downswing with your right hip that forced you to stand up too early on your downswing What you actually discovered in your revelation of the golf swing today is the rolling of you personal butt and the continuous pivoting of your downswing to the finish of your swing that is required for the lagging of your club head to its last moment of contact to your ball. Cheers⛳️👍😃🥂

[@GolfTestDummy]

Thanks Thomas! Always a work in progress.

[@lageronimo8012]

Hmmmm? You indicated no turn? Can't see it.

[@GolfTestDummy]

I mentioned Monte Scheinblum's "no turn, cast drill", but I wasn't doing that drill here.

[@jacobr4558]

So this isn't a lie or a myth it's two completely different mechanics you're referring to. Since you are swinging more of a rotational type of Swing you don't need to hold lag. The easiest way I can explain this is the plains of motion. The Classic golf swing or like the manual delatory stuff you're doing all those swings are transverse or purely rotational swinging in a barrel sort of thing where everything is about rotational forces torque the knee comes in toward the ball the lead heel lifts off the ground all of these to create rotation. That type of Swing requires no lag and if you want to you could even feel this throwing up thing you're talking about here or syncing up however you want to do it. By way of contrast though the modern golf swing the hips are not moving on the transverse plane they are moving on A sagittal plane! So more like a squat or a lunge it's extremely counterintuitive but the hips are getting deep or further away from the ball to create space for the arms and the Torso to turn etc. In That Swing model you can lag the club as far back as you want and create more and more speed. So it's not that holding lag or holding the angle is a lie it's just that it has to complement the mechanics of what the rest of the body is doing. So in a classic swing you can throw the club out there's no need for lag you can do a jack necklace is talking about and releasing from the top etc. Yet in a modern golf swing you have tons of space in the downswing and can hold the lag as long as possible Xander Shauffele

[@profpat70]

Check out OVERHAND GOLF. Very similar instruction.

[@shawnlutz6020]

Looks a lot like Freddie Couples effortless swing!

[@pedroc6823]

This is what Crocker golf teaches take a look.

[@harryoptende7161]

Great video.

[@GolfTestDummy]

Thanks Harry!

[@josephmistretta4658]

great stuff!

[@GolfTestDummy]

Much appreciated Joseph!

[@brianwashere7966]

Buddy I tell you what...that swing you have reminds me of Ernie Els....That is the highest compliment I can give.

[@GolfTestDummy]

Haha, that might be the best compliment I ever got, and I take it as high praise.

[@kymstock1852]

Marcus Edblad teaches that same concept

[@GolfTestDummy]

I'll check him out Kym!

[@alanduncan9204]

Hey - you also lost the Loop Da Loop at the top and crossing the line. I have used this for a long time now. I practice by not looking directly at the ball but just a 1/2 inch in front and let the club smack into the ball as you try come down and through. You are also correct about stopping all movement/swaying etc (a la Venetos). You need to do a vlog on the course with this and see how you go.

[@GolfTestDummy]

Thanks Alan, and I plan in some course work coming soon.

[@rajraichura7634]

Check out Marcus Edblad, he advocates the exact same thing

[@GolfTestDummy]

I know I've seen that name in the past. I'll have to do a search.

[@timothypollock8358]

You've opened a kettle of fish with this one! First of all, I have looked at the lag hold vs throw argument from every angle and I've determined that the debate is somewhat of a red herring although it might not appear that way at first glance. Nobody creates more true lag than Cameron Champ. True lag is that which is created and held without holding back the rotation of the body in any form because lag of any other kind has to be given back in some form to a fair degree. Mickelson and Champ seem to have similar lag angles but Mickelson has a very narrow backswing and then stalls his hips on the way down in order to create the extreme angle Champ on the other hand just has a virtually perfect rotation sequence and synchronization which means the massive angle is created and sustained by amazing synchronization of the moving parts of his rotation linkage. This includes width and direction of takeaway, quality of rotation and turn, and maybe most underrated is quality of footwork, combined with weight shift. This is the real issue with lag because there are very few tolerances for the close-to-perfect sychronization that allows it to be optimized. Therefore, those who experience improvement through feeling that they are dumping from the top are those whose quality of rotation is improved by doing so probably because they need to stay back and down and little longer into the hit instead of trying to steer the angle into the ball in order to optimize rotation. The opposite basically holds for those who benefit from trying to drive the angle into the ball. In that regard, I notice these things about the effect of the change on your swing:. 1) you naturally stayed back and down a bit more in doing it which changed the quality of your rotation so that you ... a) slightly flattened your plane in the early downswing allowing the club to drop slightly more behind your trail shoulder and move the shaft further down your trail bicep (this is one of the conditions for lag) b) were more able to move your bent trail arm to your trail side approaching impact (sign of better arm motion alignment with your torso rotation) c) rotated more directly forward on to your trail toe instead of forward over your trail instep, which means more centered rotation through impact d) produced a slightly later hit which was more on plane with slightly more shaft lean (on plane shaft lean is one of the biggest and least recognized sources of power since the force of the hit goes right through the center of the ball and in line with the motion of the shaft; e.g. heavy hit) e) more fully followed the release of the trail arm with the motion of the trail shoulder; sign of having driven through the ball Useful Note: A really good sign of high quality of rotation is that the act of switching the knee positions immediately before impact will literally catapult the club right through the hitting zone with tremendous power. If this switching produces a solid and powerful impact, it generally demonstrates that the lead up to pre-impact was rotationally very well synchronized. This is hard to miss in the swing of Cameron Champ viewed at full speed. So to summarize, the angle dumping feeling produced a better center for your particular rotation and better overall footwork to compliment that rotation, thus more power potential. This kind of efficiency with rotation becomes more difficult as the shaft gets longer which makes Champ's driver motion all the more extraordinary. Another thing about lag is that it is largely misunderstood; I can basically reproduce the motions of Champ's swing that create his tremendous effciency and one overlooked item is that he does not just lag the shaft with respect to his lead wrist but even more significantly he lags the trail forearm with respect to the trail upper arm so that he ends up leading with the trail elbow for a long time into impact; this is compounded lag. Because he also compresses his upper body towards the ball while maintaining a perfect rotation relationship with the motion of his lead arm, he has more room in the downswing to maintain the bend of his trail arm way into pre-impact. He then uses perfect footwork to release all of this potential energy right through the ball. Because Champ has such perfect rotational symmetry in his swing, I doubt that he feels anything like releasing from the top (even though that is the proven actuality for all great strikers) but probably more likely feels an almost perfect continual buildup of power until he has to "let it all go", a lot like swinging a heavy item so fast that you can't hold it any longer. Cheers.

[@GolfTestDummy]

Wow. I mean, you always type books, but this is a novel, haha. First off; Thanks for the breakdown. One thing to note is that Cameron Champ is an absolute beast with extraordinary abilities. No way the majority of the population is pulling off even a fraction of what he's capable of, not that you were saying we could. So, pursuing that kind of ability and coordination seems like a road to frustration and disappointment, wouldn't you agree? It sounds like there were some compliments in there, so I'll take em, haha.

[@timothypollock8358]

@@GolfTestDummy Volume II Well, I definitely said that you produced some improvements so take the compliments and run :-) I don't agree as much as you might think about who can or can't produce a somewhat Champ-like swing. What I've discovered through a long analysis and breakdown of many, many swings over many years is what makes the golf swing work. I am now looking at virtually any swing and immediately seeing what makes it work and how to do it and I can reproduce them albeit perhaps not in every respect due to certain physical limitations I am, I guess not average but to counterbalance that I am almost 63. I won all seven track events in grade 3, competed on the Quebec table tennis team, set a touchdown record in my football league at 12-13, won a provincial college golf championship, competed in about 6 different varsity sports in HS including Track and could do about 30 one-armed push-ups in 30 seconds with my stronger arm when I was 20. There are a lot of moving parts and concepts to understand but once you do, you start to realize that pros don't possess physical abilities beyond the ability of the average reasonably talented athlete. What they do possess is likely way above average proprioception and kinesthetic perception which allowed them to arrive at the their swings in the first place. However, I believe that although the average athlete wouldn't necessarily have much chance of arriving at a swing like Champ's by him/herself because there are many dynamics at work that are very hard to just engineer ad hoc. Nonetheless, the precise moves that he makes can be explained to and imitated by a reasonably skilled athlete. They might not achieve the fullness of turn or the full speed of rotation but I believe that they can achieve the basic balance of motions and greatly improve their power efficiency . The hard part is to understand what those motions are and how they are achieved. I have spent years understanding the golf swing and have been working on Champ's swing for a lot of that time. Working on his swing has helped me better understand MANY aspects of the golf swing because he is so efficient. Some of last puzzles pieces came together in the last month or so although I was already very close to complete understanding. Now I believe that I understand the how's and the why's of his swing to a very high degree which has in turn left me with a very high degree of understanding of the swing in general because Cameron's swing is not that different than many tour pro swings except that it is more efficient and the pieces fit together extraordinarily tightly even for a tour pro. Who am I talking about? Well for example, I've seen enough of your swing and abilities to believe that I could teach it to you. The one caveat is that I don't know the exact limitations of your trail wrist. I know that you don't like biomechanics or golf mechanics and of course that might be a problem. Of course, video would be required for demonstration purposes since it's a bit beyond the limitations of written description. The way that I would teach it to someone is to teach them what moves he makes, what these moves aren't, and how and why each move works and is important and how they all fit together. There is no doubt about it, each move that he makes is intricately woven into all of the other moves. You could say that there is similarity to the intricacy of a fairly complicated set of dance moves right down to the exact timing of weight shift and foot pressure. However, once you understand the "why"s of these moves, you understand how precisely they must be done and what they are not. My estimate would be that about 80%-85% of Cameron's swing is the moves themselves which I believe a reasonably talented athlete could achieve if trained to do and understand them. The rest is giftedness specific to Cameron himself which comprises his specific brand of flexibility, agility, quickness and strength. Nevertheless, that much of what Cameron does is obviously nothing to sneeze at. I also believe there are many reasonably talented athletes that are golfers which in turn means that they could be taught these moves which in my book makes these moves some of the most valuable capital in golf. Similarly what makes Kyle Berkshire's swing work even though he has a flying elbow, goes way past parallel, and crosses the line, crunches intensely , etc. is the nature of the way these moves fit together coupled with precise timing and footwork. In many respects, his swing is similar to Cameron's although it may not look like it. Cheers.

[@GolfTestDummy]

I agree that a reasonable capable athlete could get Cameron's moves to a certain degree. But, here's my biggest issue in our conversation.... Have you seen average Americans? Haha, by that I mean, athlete isn't exactly how most people would describe the average golfer out on the courses every weekend. The fact that you have such a great record as a young athlete just goes to my point. Your perspective is not from the same space as average people. Take Craig Stadler for instance. No shot at getting a Cameron Champ position, but still a really good golfer. I have an athletic background, but I'm nowhere even close to your caliber. So how do you teach a very average, unathletic, not very coordinated person to play break 90 golf, without them working everyday for years on it? That's the biggest issue I see with modern golf instruction. I'm grateful for the knowledgeable coaches like yourself, and the high level pros on TV, but you've gotta be honest; Most of us out on the courses on the weekends want to break 80, and that's a very lofty goal.

[@thomasfraser9072]

@@GolfTestDummy respectfully with all Timothy wrote I see you are great with rolling your butt in one direction for your backswing and then rolling your butt in the other direction for your downswing as you are simply pulling the butt of your handle equally with both hands for both your backswing and downswing. Sergio Garcia was excellent at pulling the butt of his golf clubs with both hands as he swung and rolled his physical butt as well Your swing is so fast you cannot possibly have premature extension ever again and the rotational aspects that Tim speaks of that is necessarily in a great golf swing you are now doing perfectly 👌🥂Cheers Moe Norman once said K.I.S.S.

[@timothypollock8358]

​@@GolfTestDummy I lost one reply already due to carelessness so I'll try again. Speaking of Craig Stadler, I played at my Dad's country club (Almaden GCC in San Jose, CA around 1990 ) with a married couple that were personal friends of "Stads" and played with him many times.. They told that he and I hit the ball very similarly in terms of distance and strike which I thought was pretty cool. Stadler could utilize some of the principle's of Champ's swing to improve his power efficiency because it doesn't necessarily center around range of motion to apply the principles so they can be adapted to one's physical strengths and limitations. While the position used to be that it was almost impossible without tons of training to gain more than a few miles per hour in BS, recent events disprove that somewhat. Stewart Cink gained significant CHS at 47 and revitalized his game. When I saw Cink play with his "new swing" I immediatel recognized several Champ-esque modifications in it. The same thing happened (albeit with less playing success) with tour player Danny Lee who suddenly gained a huge amount of distance (at least when he wanted it) in 2020-2021 and I noticed similar changes. Of course, I am talking about competent athletes here and particularly those that function well in a sport that requires some significant level of agility such as basketball, soccer, tennis, badminton, hockey, football, T&F, etc. because I think that there are a lot of those that play golf but don't get what they should or could out of their games. These people could be taught Champ-like principles and utilize them successfully but would be far less likely to uncover them without outside help. The "average" golfers with less athletic ability are of course another story. However, the solution in my book is always the same in a somewhat different form. Stop using generalized instruction practices and teach people precise moves that are distinguished from moves that might appear similar and explain why they work and are necessary to the success of the swing. Golf is not like swinging a baseball bat where almost any type of reasonably sound swing can have decent success at hitting the ball. A golf swing requires high precision and repeatability and even more so for people with less coordination and/or athletic ability. In studying top level swings of every ilk, I can tell you that all of them involve a set of precise moves relevant to that particular swing that fit together like puzzle pieces. If they change one thing, everything rapidly starts to fall apart. If they accidentally take it away more like a tour player with a significantly different swing, they are most likely doomed to a poor strike. However, all of these swings utilize to varying degrees of near perfection, a set of core principles that I have identifed and can precisely characterize. All of these principles must be represented in any highly successful swing. It used to be the norm even for expert players to regularly have different swing keys from time to time and some times from week to week. This is clearly because they were ,making similar but slightly different moves in their swings which were creating the need for adjustment(s) to hit the ball well. This is particularly a concern when the club is taken back extremely rapidly since small changes can readily creep in unrecognized. This is, I believe why the tour norm is becoming to "map" one's best swing and learn to readily recognize every move (puzzle piece) so that it becomes much easier to fix and restore and alter for some purpose. One thing I can tell you for sure is that tour players have a huge variety of slight variations in the way that they do things and to my mind, they are often unrecognized by even some of the best teachers when breaking down swings. The solution is to teach core prinicples that apply to every swing, and these are quite precise in my mind, they are not just generalizations like "shift your weight", "get to your lead side", "keep your head still", "make a full turn". All of these traditional "principles" can and should be characterized much more precisely and fully. To this end, Dr. Kwon is on the right track but in all honesty (trying not to sound swell-headed) I thiink that I am now far beyond what he is teaching, but everything that he is teaching is correct it's just that there is more to it than he is yet teaching because just looking at forces and moment arms and utilizing a pure physics perspective is not necessarily always the best way to see the big picture of certain things although it's very useful in many respects. So to summarize, I am saying that I can describe what the golf swing is really doing in fairly simple but precise terms and describe and characterize these "principles". I can find these principles fairly easily in any high quality swing and identify and copy the specific moves that fulfill these principles. I can just free-build a swing utilizing these principles by constructing highly specific and precise moves. I can adapt this free-building process to specific limitations and strengths in order to build a swing for an individual with specific needs. Thus, this is how I think that the golf swing should be taught and that would on a continuum depending on the individual's capabilities. The more challenged the individual is, the more precision they should have in being taught and understanding certain moves. However, as I believe I've illustrated, in reality everyone needs precision in the golf swing. This is, I believe,, Tiger's great secret and advantage. His incredibly sensitive hands were in fact his "Geiger Counter" to sense the proper application of these true and fleshed out "principles" and he is able to adapt his application of them in a way that know one else could. It is interesting that many of Tiger's most famous swing moves can be seen to a fair degree in the swing of ... Cameron Champ. Cheers.

[@duanerogers5391]

What nobody talks about is ball position. Can you speak to that? Please!

[@GolfTestDummy]

That's a good subject to address. I just made a note in my book to do a video on that. I've got a few others in the can ready to go, but I'll make a video on it soon.

[@oneheart7409]

Modern instruction will ruin your golf swing! It’s institutional for pros & inspiring professionals not for average golfers…

[@archiedarcy4845]

Look up "golf flail" on KZbin.

[@GolfTestDummy]

I'll do that, thanks!