One BIG problem with Iaido Kata

[@user-bm3ts2ql6s]

I do MJER and we have both sitting and standing version of the kata

[@CJ-uf6xl]

I was told by a Eishin Ryu chap that they did it so they could practice indoors.

[@TheBudoLife]

As a practioneer of Tennen Rishin Ryu, there are a number of waza where you are in a seiza position and your attacker comes in and tries to grab your hands to prevent the draw. Sensei clearly explains that this would never happen as you would not be wearing a katana, but a wakazashi. The katana is used because it is more difficult (longer, etc). So in this instance it is used as a training tool, rather than a reflection on reality. Iaido is lkely the same. It is a training tool as opposed to a simulation of a historical/practical example.

[@azrael915]

According to my sensei, we mostly start with seiza no bu in MJER (Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu) partly because it develops strength in the legs as part of training on one hand but since MJER doesn't have any Nitou forms from what he tells us, Iai with wakizashi is virtually the same in essence. But with regards to what you said about messengers and the like, there are forms in MJER that actually pertain to those specific situations. Also as a further note, my sensei always said that the further you go into the curriculum, the further back in time you go, so Seiza no Bu on its own may be reflective of simply responses conceived later in its development but that's just my guess.

[@zanshin09]

This is the risk of taking kata too literally. The kata are training tools, not (necessarily) accurate combat scenarios. This is true for modern iai, classical iai, classical kenjutsu, etc. The kata starting in seiza have been around a long time, and I don't think anyone deeply involved in iai believes that they were included for any realistic instance of facing an opponent with a long sword from seiza. Kata are done from seiza because (in part, at least) because if forces certain body mechanics (sayabiki, strong hips), builds core and leg strength, and because it's harder than standing. There's strong ties to Ogasawara ryu but I don't have time to research the connection. This is a very old discussion that's been done to death, because nobody seems to be satisfied with the lack of a realistic situation of wearing a long sword indoors, almost exclusively by those who don't actually practice the art in the first place.

[@YasuragiDojo]

Antony, though a bit late, I happily welcomed your challenge along with Chris. And per your kind response, I am not Koryu, however purely Takamatsu-den taught and very happy to always put it to test. Please, let's connect. I'm very happy to welcome you to New York for some sparring, camaraderie and possibly assisting in coordinating an event to promote your most recent work. Cheers ~ Adam Mitchell

[@AntonyCummins]

See my original video for email and contact. The problem is the distance

[@JenyerPaez]

Hey Mate! To answer your question - Iaido has been a live art since its creation, and It hasn't always been performed as it is today. In fact, it is quite a modern martial art that's gone through a series of changes. Seiza made its way into iaido through one of its earlier influencers, Ōmori Rokurōzaemon Masamitsu, a Shinkage Ryu swordsman and founder of Omori Ryu. Ōmori Masamitsu first studied iaijutsu under the Hasegawa Eishin, the seventh headmaster of Shinmei Musō-ryū and founder of Hasegawa Eishin-ryū. He was later expelled due to personal reasons and started to develop his own style, Omori Ryu. Ironically, Omori disagreed in particular on the use of tate-hiza and tachi-ai as practical sword drawing postures. He thus based his kata on the seiza posture as he had learned it in the Ogasawara-ryū, a school of etiquette or reishiki. Though the form of the kata themselves were taken from what he had learned with Hasegawa, they were modified to conform to the five forms of sword-drawing as taught in the Yagyū Shinkage-ryū. later, the ninth generation sōke, Hayashi Rokudayū Morimasa introduced those techniques executed from seiza to the system. They were taught alongside Eishin-ryū as Ōmori-ryū. Thus, the tachi waza techniques are the original techniques and seiza is a later development.

[@RentAGoalie]

A set of jumper cables wanders into a bar. The bartender looks at them and says "Okay, I'll serve you, but don't start anything!" 🤣🤣

[@blackswordshinobi]

Sword figthing at keening hummm the quick draw

[@gyakuto7775]

Suwari waza or seated techniques are ‘toho’ or kata designed to train you to handle a sword effectively. Using a sword from a seated position is awkward and difficult and doing things that are awkward leads to accomplishment; you become good at using a sword!

[@TheShurikenZone]

I have nothing to back this up... maybe someone does, but maybe there's just nothing to it... I feel like I've heard it theorized that the sitting/kneeling techniques came about when people started doing more training indoors. Low ceilings. And personally, I can admit to doing a lot of kneeling shurikenjutsu, for the same logistic reason. Just my two cents; couldn't say if it's worth as much.

[@ruwhite1316]

I’m writing a novel based on historical japanese concepts applied in present day. Your channel is definitely very insightful.

[@danlonick800]

You made a great point. I've mentioned this to others before & the only reply I've ever gotten was "It's tradition" , "it's how it's done". I never fell for just believing what I'm told. The companion sword is great indoors or close range & historically from seated position. Long sword for standing/ walking katas. Thanks for bringing it up mate 👌

[@OleMWerner]

The seiza position were brought from buddhism practise. And Iaido is also a Do-Martial Art which concentrate to the battle within a person, so that´s why there are sitting kata in Iaido. But it´s true that´s somehow the wakizashi changed to a katana, for reason I am not aware of, but in that phase it´s all about solo training and no application which involved another person.

[@elainemack6771]

As it was explained to me, the practice of training is seiza was primarily due to training on your own in your house. Japanese houses had really low ceilings, and back in the day, your training in your style was considered very private and not to be seen by the common folk or outsiders (most clans had rules regarding this also). If you weren't in the dojo but wanted to practice you had to do so in private so no one could see. So they would practice in their homes where no one could see. The only way to do this was in seiza, hence the quote from your video, what can be done sitting can be done standing. How true this is I am unsure but I have been told the same thing from multiple sensei of mine in Japan when I visited. As far as manuals depicting 2 samurai facing off doing iai, that is mainly to give you a sense of where your supposed to cut and your maai IMO. In many old manuals, you don't generally see any techniques starting from the ground, or going to ground unless it relates to jujitsu. There are always exceptions to these rules, but on the whole I believe it was a privacy thing.

[@Vergil402]

Thanks for the explanation.

[@randallpetroelje3913]

I think it depends upon which school or ryu you delve deep int. Miyamoto Musashi talked about such things. Katori Shinto ryu they advocated that you leave your katana at with your shoes , right? You keep your wakizashi with you at all times.

[@Algernir]

I know I’m ZNKR Seitei iaido we do some of our kata both standing and sitting. Honestly if you can do it sitting it’s not that hard to switch to standing but it’s much harder to do sitting if you’ve only done standing. In fact from what I’ve seen usually the standing is taught first and then the sitting since the standing is easier. I think the idea behind it may be that, if you can do it sitting you can do it standing which makes the training harder and prepares you for edge cases where you are attacked by surprise while seated.

[@Lonewolfnocub1988]

In a few films and anime I've seen, usually a sit down draw could only happen if the Katana was right next to the person, thus you would have to pick it up and simulate having it on your side for a draw. These scenario's I could on assumption see it happen in more of a private one on one meeting session; I don't really see this happening with groups were everyone is packed in together.

[@Sondan1988]

This is just an example of the bastardization of most martial arts. These men studied these styles for war and to save their lives, not to put themselves in danger.

[@mathunt1130]

Would it not be a way of increasing your leg strength?

[@randallpetroelje3913]

Oh yes, getting up from seiza or Fudoza no kamae ( especially Fudoza) would develop much ankle and leg strength.

[@theecapitan]

Very insightful. I was interested when you mentioned about if you were to pick up the wrong sword in the dark you could have your squire sent to exchange it. Is there any reference/examples to that happening? And are there any examples of that going wrong? Sounds like a set up to a good story.

[@AntonyCummins]

Heika jodan book of samurai vol 1

[@Anon0nline]

The sitting often seems to be done indoors, and from what I understand of Samurai etiquette, you're not supposed to bring your katana into another person's house or an official building; you're supposed to relinquish it/turn it in, although you may be permitted to keep your wakizashi. I'm probably wrong though. (Sorry for the run on sentence).

[@AntonyCummins]

I think you are correct

[@christopherrasberry9629]

Like most modern budo it seems like everything gets boiled down to very specific styles. Iaido should just be part of kenjutsu. Why is drawing the sword its own martial art when most of the fighting is done with blades drawn? I think the move to sitting down is to make iai as purely about drawing the sword as possible. Like the tea ceremony. Strip everything down until it is minimalist as possible.

[@HazardousClim]

Kata were considered private, or secret. The Edo period was less about war camps and more about duels. So if you were to practice your kata in your house-with low ceilings and a four-mat floor-you would do so in seiza. If you had a duel, you wouldn’t want his squire to peek at you over your wall and peep your skills, so you would do so indoors, away from prying eyes

[@warrennass24]

Hi Antony, sorry for late reply, As you already know, katori shinto ryu does there iai from a squat or crouch if you will. Maybe because it is used to ambush someone as some of the kata require jumping or it could be at an inn and they are being ambushed. These are my guesses based on external sources and I have not asked Hanshi directly yet. And the good thing about katori shinto ryu it has both standing and kneeling iai.

[@nicolasartheau822]

Waiting or even encounter without immediate intention of fighting during warfare situation. Or individual quarel between two soldiers of the same army waiting for further action ; moment usally spent in tatehiza position , made especially to sit fully armed.....

[@shawnlewis1867]

I don't know anything to help, just guessing, but it sounds like a stand off like a gun fight until someone flinches, and then it's game on

[@dubdeluxe6192]

maybe sitting outside you might keep your longsword on? this from wiki in the Eishin Ryu current: Hayashi Rokudayū Morimasa. Hayashi introduced a set of techniques executed from the formal seated position seiza. These techniques are thought to have been developed by Hayashi's kenjutsu teacher, the Shinkage-ryū swordsman Ōmori Rokurōzaemon

[@dubdeluxe6192]

Ōmori Masamitsu first studied iaijutsu under the Hasegawa Eishin, the seventh headmaster of Shinmei Musō-ryū and founder of Hasegawa Eishin-ryū. He was later expelled due to personal reasons and started to develop his own style. Masamitsu disagreed in particular on the use of tate-hiza and tachi-ai as practical sword drawing postures. He thus based his kata on the seiza posture as he had learned it in the Ogasawara-ryū, a school of etiquette or reishiki.

[@notomysmordax7109]

If I may answer to this point: in fact, you do not sit in seiza on the outside. Seiza being quite formal. (please, someone, correct me if I am wrong). When I learned that point, I definitely understood that there was something wrong with the katas in seiza...Which led me to this very video!!

[@henrikaugustsson4041]

Antony, your keen insight is always stimulating to observe! I’ve practiced a bit of Toyama Ryu, developed during WW2 when they realised Kendo Shinai didn’t translate well to actual swords and had to make a new sword style (or so they tell us) and most of our Kata are performed standing up. However, this isn’t an old system, so it makes sense we wouldn’t have majority kata sitting down. Perhaps the sitting down is another form of oppression from the Tokugawa shogunate? You said this was started in Edo-period, right? IIRC Tokugawa basically outlawed street fights and real combat, so perhaps he forced people to train in ways that wouldn’t prepare them well to fight? I mean, they still develop skills, but none of the skills apply for real situations anymore, making people less likely to rise up against him? Idk. Love your content, dude!

[@AntonyCummins]

Thanks for the comment

[@outboundflight4455]

I practice both Koryu Iaijutsu and Zen Nippon Kendō Renmei Iaidō (otherwise known as Seitei Iaido), along with Kendo. These are my points: 1. Iaido and Iaijutsu are two completely sperate disciplines. Iaido is not practical, it serves the purpose of mastering zanshin, munshin and ones body, mind and spirit theough the practice of non lethalized Koryu inspired kata or waza. Iaijutsu however is the system of quickdraw sword martial art used in battle or altercations and has been proven letitimacy via historical recording, documents of use or koryu lineage. 2. To my knowledge there is no record of bushi ever using uchigatana or tachi in seiza against one another. This appears to be a more modern update. (My guess is it was implemented after WW2) however there are examples of koryu drawing from seiza but performing Kenjutsu after that first initial cut. 3. Also Seiza can be interpreted as a method of practicing kata and technique by feeling ones body movements in another position other than standing or in a particular stance pertaining to a koryu. Im sure theres more in depth explanation but we would all need Japanese documents and a translator to interpret the text. Also contacging koryu that do have seiza kata can be useful as to ask them what is the purpose of this kata. What is the scenario and when would a bushi or practitioner of this ancient style be inclined to use this seiza technique.

[@GallowglassAxe]

I know nothing about this subject what so ever but I have a question. Did the samurai have a formal rules for dueling and if so would this sitting position be a form of starting point for the duel? In Europe they had rules for dueling and they varied a lot based on region, period, and purpose.

[@AntonyCummins]

I’ve never heard of that

[@GallowglassAxe]

@@AntonyCummins Like I said I don't know Japanese dueling culture. But just to show how weird it can get in Europe. In Germany around the 15th and 16th century if a woman wanted trial by combat with a man there was a certain procedure. The man would be put into a hole waist deep and given a rod or club. The woman would be given a flail and can move about freely. Supposedly this was to offset the woman's "natural disadvantages" to the man and make the fight more fair. Not my opinion but that's what they thought.

[@R.Merkhet]

Thanks Antony. A factoid that comes to mind is if they were practicing in front of their Shogun they would be sitting so their heads would be lower than his.

[@damnyankee3558]

Wow as an Iaido ka I never even thought of that wow good point Anthony

[@rockguitarshred]

Kata is just mental practice in the end Real knife/sword fights are insane

[@prabshiro]

First of all. Correct. A katana would not have been used sitting in seiza, a wakizashi highly likely. The reason why katana are used in sitting position in iaido. - ceilings were low during the edo period ect. So sitting down technique often imitated standing technique. - wakizashi would have been used in these techniques likely real life. - the aim of this kata is psychological. Its to train the mind in being prepared for an attack and to work with distance and space. - posture. To develop strong posture with hips and upper body. -to put pressure on the opponent’s as in semei I tend to agree that there would never have been a long sword between two opponent’s in the kata named Mai. Realistic examples i can think of are the turbulent bakamatsu period. Sakamoto ryoma was assinated while sat in seiza by an assassin using a wakizashi. The izakaya incident between shinsengumi and loyalists. Where the battle was fought in doors in tight space using long and short swords. I also believe the yagyu clan had demonstrated seiza techniques to a daimyo, which was very similar to an iaido kata.

[@canadafree2087]

I also see Jujutsu sitting down and hate it. Mostly because they sit so far away that you are at no risk of attack as your attacker has to crawl up to you on knees to strike.

[@skendiroglu]

Kata is about educational purposes, iai principles, exercise, drill, pedagogy... Kata is not fight. A limited amount of Kata must cover most of the situations. Life is infinite. Even the book is not about iaido "The Katas: The Meaning behind the Movements" by Kenji Tokitsu can reveal what Kata is.

[@kevinparker9407]

Perhaps it was to control movement in a beginners class situation? If you have a number of students studying in a small space, kneeling would mitigate accidents. Students on their feet tend to wander off their spot and are not always aware of the space around them. It also makes them sit inside and become more sensitive in the 'close combat' zone removing the need to go through the 'approach'. Speeds the practice up by removing unnecessary and potentially dangerous dancing about. The standing approach and stance stuff could be learnt in the kenjutsu kata.

[@heijoshin]

thank you, this was very interesting!

[@MultiJimbo1970]

Maybe its not fighting its a demo say for a shogun who must be head and shoulders above their subordinates

[@jakkejakaali849]

You said it yourself Anthony. In the Edo period everyone was ordered to SIT-THE-F-DOWN for their own safety. So, you'd assume Samurai would adapt their IAI to this custom. Why is it still practiced today is beyond me. As far as practicality, well you could argue it's as practical as any sword technique in this day and age.

[@philipmoore3726]

The reason batto jutsu started was as follows kata preformed from kneeling. Does not happen Kata not performed at regular speed said kata too slow and clumsy. Solo practice not working with a training partner, will hide the aspect of timing and practical distance needed to ascertain any practical skill in said kata/techniques. Iaido practitioners cannot perform cutting techniques on straw mats etc, A new sword teacher demonstrated a more practical method. On the you tube channel Ask Shogo, an iaido practitioner

[@konecho7792]

Inside.fencing..

[@akarivn]

Sitting down is just a way to train the body and learn how to use hip and control the balance. It is quite silly to think that those kata are to be applied as is into reality.

[@beepboop204]

😁😁😁😁😁😁😁

[@jamescollins9811]

This a good question for Ask Shogo. Also a bit off topic but is it possible all the Hollywood “ninja” being confused with other groups like the Yamabushi or Sohei?

[@alittlepuertoricanboy1993]

Shinobi often disguised themselves as yamabushi, because yamabushi are always traveling. Also, some yamabushi were actually used as shinobi during the Warring States period.

[@IronBodyMartialArts]

Yea. Just martial arts sport and fakery really.. Probably the low ceilings and limited space.

[@ol48spring]

Without kata you are just flailing around. They teach basics so you get used to wielding a sword that way. You don’t rely on kata but I guess it’s like stretching before running. I go to a school with hema and Toyama Ryu. We are very interested in learning what and why we do what we do. Kata isn’t the problem it’s that outside a dojo there is almost no use for a sword knife or gun. It’s just a fun hobby. We cut mats not sitting around. Idk

[@-RONNIE]

Good video 👍🏻

[@AwakenedJus]

Antony do you think it's logical to teach children learning Ninjutsu martial arts first or the physical side of things before they learn to function as a spy? Many of the Takamatsuden guys justify the idea that Takamatsu learned the art from childhood games. Don't you think Historical Ninja would learn in the same fashion?

[@alittlepuertoricanboy1993]

You could literally teach them real historical ninjutsu by playing games like Hide and Go Seek and Manhunt. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@AwakenedJus]

@@alittlepuertoricanboy1993 Good point. I literally grew up around other kids playing it. I didn't care for it though.

[@alittlepuertoricanboy1993]

@@AwakenedJus I used to play both games as a kid. I can outright say that between those two, doing parkour as a teenager, and sneaking out the house, I learned way more ninjutsu than anything that could be learned from training "ninjutsu as a martial art". And I WAS cross training in Bujinkan at the time, too!

[@AwakenedJus]

@@alittlepuertoricanboy1993 I was in the Bujinkan and recieved bad training. What was your experience?

[@alittlepuertoricanboy1993]

@@AwakenedJus Most of the people I trained with were competent martial artists with experience in stuff like Kyokushin or wrestling or judo, and the head of the dojo was an old man with boxing and karate background that was a veteran. I HAVE met a few luney toons here and there, but my experiences weren't the worst. But if you want my honest opinion, one's far better off mostly training Muay Thai and BJJ and supplementing them with firearms and kali for actual fighting skill, and this is me being respectful about it. Bujinkan isn't useless, but it's not something I would make a focal training art unless you have solid fundamentals in striking and submission grappling.

[@ogarzabello]

How does a ninja fart? Silent and deadly.

[@highchamp1]

Iaido ZNKR AJKF Hard on the legs and knees. (So yeah it's hard to do... Stuff it!) Chiburi too is apparently nonsense (better methods See below.) General knowledge and technique (would be better...) Sword schools (overview) Anything from Japan? (books historian Otaku?) I had to figure it out myself. Different style swords (...a bokken collection?) thick, thin, straight, etc. There's a lot of techniques and theory (strategies and tactics) if you dig deeper and study further. Unarmed Vs Sword TV, Movies (fun stuff) No one teaches it, You have to study for years. (Takes a lot of effort....too much...like everything so far...) Future people will have it easy. (I'm tellin ya!)

[@Dan.50]

Kata is pretty useless. The martial arts without it are superior to the arts with it. Time to lay that old useless relic to rest.

[@prabshiro]

Sorry but I respectfully disagree with this statement. This is a very Western idea, and possibly why some japanese sensei beleive that westerners just don't get it. Kata is budo. Its part of budo and practiced in all forms of budo. Kata links you mentally and in spirit with the tradition that has been passed ( or meant to be passed). Kata is you, yourself demonstrating your inner spirit and your inner self, projecting it outwardly in the kata you are doing. I've seen kata, performed by high ranking iaido teachers, and it is astonishing to watch. It's the collaboration of mind, spirit and body. It's the essence of budo. It's meant to allow you to bring out the best you can do. Believing that martial arts without kata are superior is nonsensical in my opinion. We live in a world where martial arts are no longer needed to defend yourself or to attack someone. This is why budo in general now is aimed at self and spiritual growth.

[@kristoffernordlund8392]

Id go with something like freudian explanation on this, probably something sexual going on with this.

[@stevenlowe3245]

Iaido and Aikibatto as opposed to Kenjutsu are Do arts for self development and Zen practice. Swords are extinct as battle weapons. Study pistol and carbine skills if you want battle skills.

[@fmcra]

Its better to study missiles

[@MikeEstacio]

You're ignoring the most important fact which is that iaido literally translates to "the way of readiness". And what better way to be ready than to start your training with the most unlikely situation that you'd find yourself in. I study Muso Shinden Ryu iaido and the first 9 kata of the Shoden set you learn are in seiza. The 10th kata is performed standing. After Shoden you learn Chuden which starts from tate-hiza. After you learn Chuden you move on to Okuden which has 9 sitting kata and 12 standing kata. By the end of your training, you should be ready for any attack whether it be sitting or standing. There are other koryu of iaido which focus primarily on standing techniques such as Shindo Munen Ryu and Mugai Ryu. I don't think it's right to make a blanket statement that all iaido focuses on sitting techniques. The techniques developed by each school more than likely reflected whatever the sentiment towards swordsmanship in Japan was at the time the school was founded and as they moved away from the era of the samurai into modern times, swordsmanship moved away from combat techniques into an artform.

[@AntonyCummins]

I think you are missing the question. There appears to be no social situation where this would happen

[@drifter-donosadventureobsc9565]

Honestly this almost feels like a "does it really matter?" Kinda scenario. Iaido is not swordsmanship in its truest form. Kind kendo, it serves its purpose in a recreational manner (if memory serves, makes much more sense during the Edo when you could practice while sitting, compared to standing poised as you would during the sengoku) Kenjutsu practitioners typically employ iai as well, but as you said, do so from a standing position as if in an actual combat scenario. So I kinda fail to see why it even matters. Iai sits down for the same reason that tai-chi is slow and graceful. Its meditative, not combative.