The Reality of Low Mythic+ Pug Key Failure In The War Within Season 1

[@Ennar]

10s are quite attainable for everyone if you start interrupting more. The most basic level is to learn what spells will wipe you if not interrupted (for example fears). If you focus just on that, you will already have great results. It's more important than your dps, you need to stop whatever you are doing if interrupt needs to be done. There are two major addons that will help you with this: OmniCD that allows you to see cds of everyone's interrupts, so you know if it's you that needs to do something (and if you are overlapping interrupts) and the other one is Plater Nameplates that looks scary, but you can find profiles like Quazii's that will color-code everything in dungeons, like casters, important interrupts etc. Now, the next level is to interrupt everything when you know you don't have to save interrupt for something important. Focus one mob and do that one the whole time. What helps a lot is auto-marking weakauras that automatically put marks on mobs that need to be interrupted so you can say at the start of dungeon star is always for you to interrupt, so no overlaps happen, and you don't mix it up when lots of stuff is happening. If you compare good 10s and bad 5s, you might see that healers do less or same amount of healing in good 10s than in bad 5s. How come? Well, people don't take unnecessary damage in good 10s and every interrupt is damage that your healer doesn't have to heal. So, even if everything hits harder in 10s (lot harder), that damage never hits. On a sidenote, I'd assume everyone would know this in m+, but I've seen it ignored too many times: casters won't move unless you interrupt them. So, help out your tank and interrupt casters so tanks can position them properly. Especially if you are ranged. *TL;DR* Not interrupting enough in 5s is a self-inflicted affix that makes 5s harder than 10s.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

100 percent agreed.

[@dirusj4006]

I joined a weekly 10 completion key. At first I was like why did they say weekly completion? This group is fine. On the first boss in realized the DPS shaman is only 556. It was a group of friends trying to carry their fresh 80 friend. We ++ that 10 with a single death. Just doing the mechanics properly is enough to easily complete 10s but you need people using their entire kits not just "I dps I zug"

[@Ennar]

@@dirusj4006 true, 10s are very "4 man-able". With proper interrupt rotation and doing mechanics it won't matter if you are killing something slowly. DPS is bottleneck only at the start of season. What you said at the end is why I like 12s, I feel like at this point even 11s are "I dps I zug", but ok, interrupting and using defs is automatic for me. 12s do make me think about def rotation and properly using all of my kit.

[@Suprafan69]

@@dirusj4006 we complete them IF the pug will stay

[@Suprafan69]

where do I find profiles for plater?

[@mummuhoubova]

"Tank is so bad" *makes absolutely no attempt to explain anything* "Im outta here" oh my god thats hard to watch

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya, that's REALLY frustrating. Especially for some one who made lots of mistakes along the way.

[@TheFinQ]

10:52 he has a kick and wing buffet. The problem is he is clicking his spells by the time he find them on his bar its too late.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya kinda searching for them. Not good.

[@RookeRooke-m5t]

I think it's a real possibility that the tank did the +2 Ara Kara on fortified, which will probably not kill him on the suck in if he has some gear. So yes, he probably is unaware of lots of boss mechanics if that is the case. Low fortified keys really don't teach you the initial barrier of M+: boss mechanics. Later on in higher keys you pull bigger and that becomes the issue, at low levels it's all about boss mechanics I feel. I remember myself getting sucked in on a +2 Ara Kara as a DPS and not dying, maybe it was an M0 but you get the idea, I didn't know what was going on :)

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Oh ya good point there honestly.

[@Netherstrasz]

I do a lot of low keys. The problem is everything. You have players not doing mechanics because they A) Don't know them and/or B) are on alts and refuse to do them, thinking they don't need to. Low keys are partly for learning, too, and players are not taking that opportunity and try to do higher keys and it gets even worse. And because of this, low keys are incredibly much harder than higher keys. The reality is that there ARE good players who do low keys and are gearing alts. They know what to do, but the amount of players who feel they're too good to do a 4 like an 11, is too great. When you treat the content the same at every level and work to do it right, that's a recipe for success. And that is seriously missing.

[@Muziejininkas]

Well, on heroics the mechanics are different on all the bosses and players can simoly pull whole dungeon. Nobody is doing m0, so its pretty huge chance you get people who doesnt know, because they have no exp

[@Netherstrasz]

@ That’s right. In one of my first videos I told the DPS who failed time and time again to do m0 and respect the rest of the group by knowing the content and not holding us back

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya basically everything to do with players and nothing to do with the dungeons themselves haha.

[@Netherstrasz]

@ Absolutely. And I have a video too about that last AraKara boss, with me tanking and giving instructions on how to succeed. Group also broke up. Was a disaster. It’s 20 minutes and that’s just the last boss

[@Midknight9123]

@@heythereguysitsMetro I’ve agreed with this sentiment for the longest time. But, unless I’m completely off base, you suggest that we treat mythic plus like a mentor program and teach. When do you find it acceptable to quit with a team who refuses to learn or adapt? I’m burnt out on trying to teach tanks or dps anything. Everyone has their “BiS” routes or pulls or “I’ve seen this on KZbin”. When, if ever, do you find it reasonable to move on from the group?

[@kopitarrules]

Very interesting. Now that I have dipped my toe into m+ and started watching the guides to help bolster my knowledge this makes a lot more sense than just watching someone run keys without context. I made some similar errors on a Dawnbreaker 5 to what the tank did and it wiped the group a few times we still managed a double upgrade so yeah totally the timer should be VERY doable even with mistakes on the level shown here.

[@Soldruid]

I always move the boss way when he puts swirls down so that players have a clean area next eggs.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

sweet man lemme know if you have any questions or need any help!

[@timhundhausen1386]

This affix is by far the worst-designed for this dungeon pool due to area denial overlaps. It's basically a new boss mechanic counter-synergistic to half of the boss fights in this dungeon pool.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya it's so much harder on bosses than it's ever been before.

[@francischabot1412]

The best is on the first boss of Dawnbreaker when the balls spawn when you have to run out.

[@Xakanis]

balls spawning in water in boralus on the last boss was funny

[@benji9465]

Low keys fail because of this clip. People dont pay attention and die/mess up mechanics to wipe themselves. They also get used to plowing through a 4 or 5 and think itill be the same as the keys go higher. Best example i have are the dog thingies in mists that jump out at you if you arent in melee range and hit you with a bleed. That shit hurts, but people will still die to it because they dont know the mechanics or just think they will be healed through it.

[@jonathanwynne6925]

I have to BoP somebody every single Mists on the first pull. Never fails.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya this one really shuts the door on that argument. Anyone questioning if low keys are too hard, just have them watch this.

[@thixzera]

+6 are whay harder than +10

[@scuttlebut]

It’s variable. It depends on if you got 5 experienced players versus just 1 or 2. I have a tank with all 10s done sitting at 629 gear. I’m now running a baby tank in 4s at 599 gear level. 4s are either super easy because I’m with people know what they are doing, or people that have no idea what’s going on. If I was on my main, I could carry the run. At 599, no way especially as I’m learning that tanks full potential.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@thixzera the people make it harder for sure.

[@birds-and-bones]

From my M+ documentation this season, literally the first M+0 before season started was Ara-Kara. Here's the note I wrote about it: "Monstrous amount of pulls. Many on first boss. Then final boss, healer and rogue die genuinely 20+ times. We reset every time. Turns out healer barely speaks english. We struggle to convey 'stand in the dirt' to make him not die in the black hole. He struggles with playing his class. We get to 70% finally. Everyone is very, very patient about it. We disband after like 1.5 hours." Playing on EU is sometimes such an extra challenge, playing with people who don't speak your language and *don't reveal that to you* until it's too late. They then also don't speak any other language! I can do three other central-european languages manually and could do *any other* with google translate! And those people always turn out to be deer in the headlights, refusing to communicate. Relatedly, when we do raids, I *always* force people onto discord. This regularly causes about 5-10 people to join, then realize that I ACTUALLY meant what I wrote in the group description, and angrily leave again. It takes about 4-5 prompts to make them understand that the phrase "we will not start until every single one of you is on discord" is taken seriously, these guys *always* try to just stand there passively and wait it out in hopes that I forget about them.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@birds-and-bones that's funny. Do you actually need everyone in discord for raids though? Or is it just a stand you take.

[@birds-and-bones]

@@heythereguysitsMetro - It's largely a thing I do for community reasons. The people who consistently clear final bosses (there's 2-3 streamers who do *nothing* but final boss kills all day) force all the randoms onto voice so they can shout even noobs through the mechanics, and that's what I tend to do in the first weeks with the easier bosses. I have much lower iLevel requirements than others, people just have to write a sentence so I know they can speak the language and be on discord so I can coordinate them through bosses. In my experience, every raid has that step up in difficulty part, where individual failures can ruin an entire boss (instead of just killing that player), and even runs that oneshotted everything before will suddenly get brick-walled if they are not on voice because those bosses can't be carried by gear. In the current season that's Ovinax, the Princess and the Queen, but there's basically no raid since like Cataclysm you can just overpower.

[@jonathanjudenberger613]

The guy who sent the clips clicks so many spells. As a healer main this is a horror pov. Also no mouseover macros?

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@jonathanjudenberger613 ya they have a lot of work to do for sure.

[@Sweetedmond]

Warrior tanks run in to problems on the last boss in this dungeon because either they’ve been successful once or twice or they’ve been told that you can heroic leap the gravity swirl mechanic. The problem is that it bugs out if you are completely at the center of the swirl and your leap goes nowhere and you die.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@Sweetedmond oh ya that's funny. Not what happens here clearly but thanks for letting me know about that.

[@Steinhagen75]

Being quick to want give up and quit is a quick way to black listed. It's almost always people who are exclusively playing for score or gear. Two things that come naturally when you play for the sake of personal improvement. It doesn’t matter what key level I am doing, I would rather have four "noobs" with an eagerness to improve than four seasoned players who are only there to time the key. The latter tends to create an unhealthy dynnamic leading to early disbands.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Good attitude for sure.

[@KrowDD214]

@10:40 Quell is the interrupt for the blood root.. its the white wolf head next to Rescue and was def useable vs the wing buffet to get out of that. I think this specific end boss comes down to people not knowing the exact mechanics of getting stuck, then interrupting to get unstuck before you get blown up. I def did it a few times before I finally asked what I was supposed to do there.. A LOT of people in low mythics seem to not want to ask what theyre doing wrong for fear of looking dumb(?) or that they havent been in the dungeon before or much.. I dunno. If something kills me 2-3x, i ask wtf was that and what am I supposed to be doing.. And this happens allllll the time in lower keys. I had 3 in a row that were VERY similar to this key last week. 2x 6 GB.. everyone quit with 15 and 20mins left after the Dragon boss, no explanation, just left party and a 7 GB with 14mins left AS we were getting to the final corridor with the Corruptors.. tank stops, "Well we're not going to time this soo..." *X has left party* and hearthing. I dont get it..

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya it's crazy to die to the same thing three pulls in a row and no one discusses it.

[@ludekcortex]

Yesterday was tanking a +6 Grim Batol for a friend, nothing video worthy, because we finished it cleanly, with couple of deaths, but no full wipe, and 9min to spare on timer. The interesting part was a PUG rogue, who as soon as the dungeon finished, started venting on my skills, that I should learn how to tank when rogues are in the group, or stop tanking at all. Apparently because 2-3 times I did not wait for him to restealth, and also on at least one pack I dared to move the mobs to go help with the affix (so they ended up front facing him, no backstabs i guess) The most funny thing was, that out of 8 death we had, 4 was him, 3 times from standing in targeted AoE, once from being impatient and pulling a pack of mobs while I was waiting for healer to get mana. According to RIO, that character was an alt of someone who had 2,9k rating...

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Those are the ones you wanna record and send in!

[@nucleartickz]

well yee, for classes like rogue or feral druid we must always open with stealth, missing that opener is tiny bit forgiving for ferals but im sure rogue bars go crazy xD. been trying outlaw and just after opener chaos ensues. for a 6 he shouldn't care but hes a 2900 player right, his expectations are high, he's trying to learn but things aren't happening, not tanks fault though unless he is chain pulling. other than that it just means that rogue is .... never prepared :p

[@ludekcortex]

​@@nucleartickz I couldn't care less tbh. I'm tanking on this game for 15 years, had hundreds or rogues and feral druids in my dungeons, yet he was the first one to get butthurt. I just find it funny that he waited till the very end of a dungeon to shittalk me, instead of just giving me a tip to slow down so he can restealth or whatever. Afterwards people are complaining that there are no tanks or healers, when some random DPS can explode on you for missing 2-3 operners in easy content you cleared.

[@nucleartickz]

@@ludekcortex the road of m+ is ruff and poisonous lol, dont let em get to ya, finish the dungeon, say ty and byebye. dont give time to complain :p ( typing during key? well ya know what happens to those that type a lot during combat xD)

[@969Maff]

Yeah, almost every rogue will complain if you chain as they lose a lot of damage. I just don't run with rogues anymore. So many other classes where I can pull however I want and not get flamed when I brain afk chain 😂

[@domendobnikar2012]

The old affixes did affect boss fights, I remember every single week it was afflicted, incorporeal, explosive or quaking obviously some more than the others but it made it much easier to wipe boss fights if the affix showed up at a bad time. It's basically the same thing the only difference being more bugs since the content is new.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Well explosive and quacking had been gone since season 1 of df. The rest existed but only a few weeks out of the season. Afflicted especially had no real impact though.

[@mr.alfredo9252]

The trinket is called Imperfect Ascendency Serum and it's from world content/delves

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Thanks.

[@lordshadow19]

@@heythereguysitsMetro Pretty sure that trinket has like a 2 second cast which I think would make it terrible for a tank to use since casting while tanking seems like a bad idea.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@lordshadow19 Gotcha, ya that's not surprising.

[@dannyd806]

That boss timer overlap with the keystone timer is hard to look at. A functional UI also helps quite a bit.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

That's just the default position of DBM. I assume most people don't look at any of that. Its worse to watch footage of then to play with. Try to resist that urge to nitpick UI stuff like that.

[@dannyd806]

@ the boss timers? Come on, you don’t look at them? I definitely do!

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@dannyd806 the dbm timers basically start small and change when they become more relevant. So I really only look at them at that point. But I assume anyone playing at this level only has dbm because they were told they need it and isn't going to be looking at it at all no matter where it is. That's just the default spot, I was saying. Now maybe the fact that it's blocking the timer is more relevant than anything. I look at that a ton but as a tank I assume that's common for me and not others playing other roles.

[@dannyd806]

@ interesting. I don’t use DBM, I prefer bigwigs/littlewigs but I assume the timers are similar. I agree I really only glance at the sub 10 seconds timers. However, neither of my section of timers are blocked, must be an OCD thing. I think it’s safe to assume someone in that low of a key isn’t looking at the timers lol

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@dannyd806 ya that's what I mean. So it looks bad to you, but in reality it's not even being looked at by the player so it doesn't matter. They have bigger issues.

[@shawnf525]

For that final boss as a warrior tank: in a 4, if you just pop spell block, or any other defensives, you can easily live through that AoE. You don't even need to leave the big purple swirl, or do some heroic leap at the last second crap.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya, not a great habit though tbh

[@caroqt]

it's really hard to watch a healer with poison dispel not use it on that last boss specifically as well as the ret. i have seen people in 10s all the way to 14s not use their dispels and DIE to poison as a ret paladin or evoker.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@caroqt oh ya it's rough for sure.

[@beang7045]

this is solely about practice, people going in there probably having not played it on mythic, which I think is a huge flaw to heroic dungeons, they leave out the tricky parts and that should change. Heroic dungeons don't seem to serve any useful point anymore, they fail to represent the reality of the dungeon on the scale to great rewards.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@beang7045 ya I do agree with all that for sure. Heroic and mythic Zero teach you so little.

[@FragMaster93]

I've run 11s like this not because of the tank but the dps just spread out and do their own thing, the first boss the adds just go everywhere and only some of the dps care all while the healer has a time healing them across the entire arena, similar with the last boss so spread out and not paying attention to anyone but themselves so they can't get healed or don't find a puddle. As for this felt like the same thing but with all of them just no respect for the mechanics the affix didn't even seem to be an issue really until things were already over.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya it certainly doesn't stop at 11 either sadly.

[@FragMaster93]

@ for me when a 12 fails the lack of defensive/healing on unavoidable damage is by far and away the main culprit for wipes, 11s when it happens it’s because people just don’t do the basics like stick together, kill the adds/not kite them through the boss etc.

[@DEADLY12GUN]

I just had an 8 stonevualt that was going so good, we killed the first 2 bosses and got to the Machinists boss with 3 deaths and 6 minutes remaining for the +3 window. We get the machinist down to 20% and 3 people got hit by the cube so we wiped. After that one wipe the group leader kicked everyone out of the group then went offline. It's really crazy because we could have +2'd the key. I don't understand why people wants everything to go perfect with no errors what so ever. If there was something better I could have done there I would have, but being that 2 dps and healer gets hit by the cube, there's nothing that I could have done as the tank.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@DEADLY12GUN that's a wild one. Make sure you record stuff like that and send it in!

[@madDjakni]

Honestly I don't think the tank was the problem here, I mean yes he's failing the suck in mechanic but at least on the last one it's not entirely his fault, he jumps out into where 3 pools have been lined up but ends up not getting a root because the healer and the 2 melee dps took the pools before him. Personally I'd blame the healer for that one there were plenty of pools at that point there was no reason for him to take one so close to the boss especially since there was another just to the right of where healer was standing before the mechanic went out. Also watching the healer flying around with the poison mechanic on last boss was stressing me out, as a DH I get yelled at alot for that kind of reckless movement 😅😅

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Hmm well the problem the tank has is there is just no planning. He can probably just charge to one of the little guys and make a new puddle right?

[@madDjakni]

@heythereguysitsMetro I think there is a slight delay from hitting the mob to the puddle dropping and I'm not even sure if charge triggers it (although he probably gets a free hit or two so that would). Also he could have used heroic leap on every other pull (or every pull not exactly sure on the cd) but that requires precise timing because the boss does a big pull in right before cast ends that immediately brings anyone who isn't rooted or otherwise immune to knocks into her circle and then cast fires off and kills them. As a tank DH it's easy for me cause I always have 2 charges of leap so even if I go to early I can correct it. Dks are spoiled with deaths advance obviously (as long as they remember to stay out of the circle lol.. seen some who just pop DA but die cause they don't run from boss xD) Also in the last pull there was one extra puddle next to stairs in melee so I guess both tank and healer lacked awareness (and the other melee as they all went for the same stack of puddles :P) but yeah at least on last pull I wouldn't blame lack of planning more lack of communication cause 4 planned to take the same 3 pools :P

[@FolieAdrien]

He doesn't need a puddle. Warriors can heroic leap less than 1s remaining into the cast.

[@madDjakni]

@FolieAdrien, yes, both warriors could have used leap. however, some people prefer the less risky option of just getting a puddle like normal, and the tank in question is clearly new or at least new to warrior, so he's less likely to think know such tech

[@larrymann583]

The problems in descending order. Pugs have no communication. Most packs have numerous kicks, dispels, poisons, hard to see frontals and swirls when it's crowded. Some instances have so much trash.....seriously why are there 40 mobs just chilling in a random hallway? Watching videos is necessary to run the keys. Most of them are only helpful for boss fights.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@larrymann583 really could have stopped with the first point haha. The rest is something everyone deals with, but the lack of communication and general understanding make low keys absolute chaos.

[@nicolaifrhling9275]

i was helping a friend in a low ara kara on a alt the other day, were we had 2 paladin using some "base" talent trees from wowhead/some guide the talent is called steed of liberty. they kept killing us all the time, and not accepting it was a talent problem :D So everything ended up being so toxic :D ( Every time they used the horse "movementskill" to get into the pulls, they would use a random freedom on a player )

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Oh ya, I have seen that happen on high keys too actually haha

[@highgrade9]

Warriors dh should be leaping that pull every time it's super easy to time with a leap. That's the ascendance trink from world stuff and delves maybe? It has a vast time it's not great but maybe the char is very new

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya, that trinket seems to suck haha

[@Sodacacik]

blizzards fault for not making people learn mechanics in normal and heroic dunegons. Also i didnt see anyone even try to explain to the tank what to do?

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Right ya, this is very easily explained. I really don't understand the want to leave instead of just help this person.

[@hicarn]

The Heroic Leap move on the final boss is a bit tricky. She does a mini pull before the BIG pull so if you react to the wrong pull, you can leap away early and still be pulled in. Most of the time, if you pop Shield Wall, you can survive the AoE but only if you were topped up. Takes some practice but I'm assuming he didn't know and was just looking for puddles without any luck. But yea, this is the problem with lower keys is you get people who go in without knowing mechanics at all. They don't research or watch videos, they just jump in maybe even without a DBM or BigWigs addon, and they cannot avoid mechanics.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

That's interesting. Didn't think you'd be able to survive it reliably.

[@FolieAdrien]

Real trick is looking at the spell timers, leap after < 1s. Looking only at the animation, there is a good chance to fail it (happened to me when i was training it)

[@hicarn]

@@heythereguysitsMetro Prot Warriors active mitigation is quite good with Shield Block and Ignore Pain. Even a well timed ignore pain can help you survive those big mistakes. Tho, once you reach high keys 13+, I'm sure the mechanic becomes a 1 shot no matter what.

[@Knote3]

@@heythereguysitsMetro i do it consistently with all monk specs, when it starts just roll out to drop spirit, wait til cast it at 1s and tp out, always works

[@pyramus7958]

I hate tanking this boss on anything other than a dk because every time the melee dps takes the pool closest to me. It is actually infuriating.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@pyramus7958 ya I can imagine it's frustrating.

[@DaveStarfire]

Yeah, as warrior on the last boss, you wait till there is one second left on the cast of Cosmic Singularity then leap out. Works for DH too. Monks can Transcendence teleport , I think bear can use Wild Charge on a friendly as human form. I think every tank has some trick they can use if they don't want to go for puddles. My preferred tank in Ara-Kara is DK though, can Death's Advance the singularity, and AMS one of the Cultivate Poisons each phase. But yeah, they almost timed it even with those wipes, then managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. I imagine in a +2 they probably had enough HP to survive failing the mechanics, plus it wasn't Tyrannical, but the last boss of Ara-Kara is a hard-hitting mechanics check.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya, if some one just explains this to the warrior, after the first pull they upgrade this key.

[@nucleartickz]

if this tank doesn't know mechanics on this fight, what are the chances that he knows how to do this stunt? these things are meant for high skill players, not learning ones xD

[@rfo98b]

People have already commented on the Evokers gameplay, but I would just like to add for any newer players at the same level, trying to learn: Zoom out. Playing this zoomed in with low skill, mouse clicking and lack of awareness is a death sentence.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Agreed.

[@TheUnderJaker]

just a quick glance. the guy that sent the video was part of this key failing. Hes the only one that you might be able to help. everyone in this key messed up on many things. the healer was constantly out of range of people because of the evoker healer range. Im not blaming him for the key failing. alot of the problems are a combination of bad players, bad mechanics, and lack of knowledge

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Oh ya no one is saying they weren't though. Why bring it up?

[@TheUnderJaker]

@ I was more saying in general, like this is a 4 and everyone is making mistakes. And as you can see the guy responding here thinks it’s gear related and not mechanics and knowledge related. Which is clearly not gear. And I think you mentioned? That people just don’t want learn the mechanics, don’t want to put time in to learn either. Fail the mechanics and and leave. That’s why these things are actually failing. You also never pointed out anything the healer did wrong and just kept saying others were messing up.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@TheUnderJaker I mean I show them get hit by a swirl and then dragon breath into a root that kills them. I think I was pretty fair here.

[@benjaminghazi787]

@@heythereguysitsMetro I think what you said was fair. it also shows how big of an impact a tank with a little bit of knowledge has for sure. If that tank knows the first fight, he could have kited boss away from adds longer and it would have died a lot sooner. If he knew the last boss, they could have probably killed it the first couple of tries. Any player taking 1 min to explain the last boss or first boss to him too would have made that key and exponentially smoother run, not even to mention his future ara kara keys. It does strike me as odd that the players knew most of the mechanics but no one would want to explain them. Lack of confidence, unsure, antisocial, not sure what it is but it is definitely odd.

[@dirusj4006]

On a 2 in Arakara tanks can survive the pull in so probably never learned. Also of note on low key levels Arakaras last boss can be soloed by most tanks if they know the fight well and duo fairly easy with a healer. The fight is super easy but also really good at bricking runs.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Oh ya, I solo it all the time myself on 13s and higher haha

[@beang7045]

Since this Tuesday I feel lower keys are far worse off. Tanks are throwing keys, sabotaging them often, overpulling, and ruining the key, so they can accelerate the key into timed out and then typing 'gg' and then leaving. I also suspect the mid group of people who are more into M+ who farmed +4 to +7 are now moved upward and what is left is a much more variable set of players.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Well if you are running into stuff like that make sure you record them and send them in for review!

[@tbuksuperfly]

The dps numbers are interesting to me. Absolutely blasting bosses etc.. as they're most likely all decked out in hero level gear from delves, but still failing. The perfect example of all the gear and no idea. It did bother me at the end, not a single person asked the tank if he was unsure of the mechanics. Perhaps they didn't want to appear toxic, but there are certainly ways to ask without being mean.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya, its really frustrating to watch the tank fail that over and over and no single comment get made to even ASK if they have any questions lol.

[@FlippyDipDipper]

That warrior tank trinket is the ascension trinket. Don't remember the name but turns you into a ascended neurbian

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@FlippyDipDipper it doesn't root you or anything right haha

[@FlippyDipDipper]

@@heythereguysitsMetro Unfortunately for the Warrior no lol it doesn't!

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@FlippyDipDipper hahaha

[@Krizefugl]

Meanwhile on live I try to get at least a weekly +10 done on a character thats 632 ilvl and close to 2700 score and get declined for every 10 and 11. a LOT needs to change but it won't.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@Krizefugl well to be fair in this case the only thing you need to change is something you are doing. You can do your own key or switch to a more desirable role or make friends so you don't have to pug, right?

[@Krizefugl]

@heythereguysitsMetro as a hunter it is somewhat hard to switch roles. I already learned SV and became quite decent at it, always offer to bring Lust if needed, dispel myself on weeks like the current one with feign and tranq/kick important stuff 24/7. Dps are looked down on.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@Krizefugl Ya unfortunately Hunter is looked at as the worst class in meta atm. So will have to do your own key or befriend a tank etc

[@Krizefugl]

@@heythereguysitsMetro youd think reaching the IO and having the gear would already be a decent tell but i guess not.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@Krizefugl nope, there are hundreds of people signing up to some keys. You need to stand out heavily if you want invites to farm level stuff.

[@brentwaits954]

tank turning into spider...shtty trinket from delves

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

gotcha

[@jonathanwynne6925]

Is it possible the tank has done the key before, but as DPS and just didn't wanna wait in queue?

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Can just check to see the raiderio page to see they only tank on that toon.

[@djlancer88]

leaving a comment cause you'rea cool guy. Do you have a community guild or such? Been playing off and on since Late LK. I've done quite a bit of heroic/mythic raiding during Cata/MoP

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@djlancer88 thanks for saying that, that was very nice of you. I don't have any community guild or anything like that though, no sorry.

[@dirusj4006]

I have done a few keys this week in the 2-4 range as a 630 Brew or WW. I have seen some things. Interrupts never happening. Nothing being dispelled. Everything is butt pulled and sometimes pulled in ways I dont fully understand. Like that pack was 40 yrds from us how did you hit it? Also damage way lower than it should be given the gear level. Healers having no clue how to heal the heal checks. Mechanics totally ignored... not just done wrong but ignored.

[@dirusj4006]

Also you can top it off with people not doing the affixes. Even as a monk who can mostly solo all the affixes they still go off constantly so I know I am not getting any help.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Well if you run into anything interesting, record it and send it in!

[@rfo98b]

Remember that the new rings has some procs that can pull out of combat trash from crazy distances, so some of the pulls you experienced could be related to that.

[@chami2077]

I m glad I quit the game before the xpac. I was a 3k player on multiple toons (mostly tanks) for YEARS. I got tired of the carry and watching others not even try to learn, while blaming their short comings on others. Wow has a spoiled player base that is now not willing to put in the extra work to get better. After stopping, I now find myself less stressed. If anyone else is feeling the same, you may find yourself happier if you just move on from crap like this.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@chami2077 ya does sound like you made the right choice!

[@joeltorres2255]

Yeah you have to clear the whole room

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya

[@trancer03]

What i noticed when i am on my alts on low keys like 4s. People still dont know basic boss mechanics, this far into the season. It makes me not want to play my alts since i already been through the learning of mechanics and in the higher keys that was almost never a problem anymore... Its just more people not learning the bosses. i dont know if blizzard can do a better way at explaining what people should do. besides shift J book that a lot of them dont even know exists. because it seems like this will keep happening forever for the less than amazing players. Eventhough they are overgearing the content by now from doing delves. They still failing boss wipe mechanics

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Easiest solution is just explaining what to do. As you see there is no pressure from the timer.

[@trancer03]

@heythereguysitsMetro People explaining eachother or blizzard explaining it to people. I think option 2 would have much more Success because option 1 is obviously not happening. And in a lot of cases that is a language barrier problem. But in a lot of other cases they rather fail than talk because i have often experienced people leaving if you talk, talking is legit dangerous.

[@MrPlustheMonk]

Naive thought: did 20s in DF and death was meaningless. Now death is too meaningful. Is it the wrong lever to teach people mechanics? Swirls for example could chunk your health (increasing with key level) and you stay at that health and are unhealable for X seconds with a UI indicator that’s obvious (not a hard to see debuff). At 10s it’s death or maybe a little earlier. Would help people learn without being death since that’s what gets people to quit dungeon.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

At the end of the day death IS the best teacher, because you can't continue if it happens. The idea of being allowed to mechanically fail but continue playing is never one I will support no matter how creative you get with it. Anyone who quits low key progression because they die simply needs to get better both in terms of mental fortitude and skill. Leaving the dungeon isn't going to help them do that, so they will just keep sucking. That's the long and short of it in my eyes.

[@dustallen82]

Wow. I would have left that group way before the last boss. I'm a 42 year-old disabled guy and I have a 3052 rated warrior and a 2980 paladin. It blows my mind that there are so many people that do not value other peoples time. There are tons of guides, videos, and people streaming. These people were failing to things that would have killed them on a follower dungeon.

[@kaliyvga1426]

All group was bad though

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Makes no sense to say this. You leaving is not valuing other people's time. Literally all that needed to be done here was ask the tank if they understood the mechanic.

[@benjaminghazi787]

No one is impressed by your IO, your life circumstances aren’t really relevant here, none of that matters in this discussion. You’re that rating but you would leave before the last boss…. 100% I would walk this group through the boss mechanics in 30 seconds before each boss and we would have easily timed it. So what does that say to you?

[@Zammy-gj8xn]

Chronic dungeon leaver spotted

[@celery4564]

Last boss in Ara-kara it really doesn't help when the evoker is killing the mobs that drop the puddles as soon as they are at the top of the steps into the arena.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@celery4564 it doesn't help but it doesn't really matter either way. That tank clearly wasn't aware of where to go or how to get there.

[@brentwaits954]

THE POISON debuff.... they didn't clear out all of the spiders in the area and now they are on the pally lol.. EDIT: as soon as I hit play on the video you literally mention it

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

haha ya I never would have expected that.

[@orekutlesic4831]

Poison on ret paladin should never be dispeld by healer

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Agreed.

[@MrVaeron]

Ara last boss is really bad in design. Its either a complete freekill or it kills your healer, cause people are just OOR every time. If you have 3 people with Dispell, its like a cake walk even on 11/12 and if you dont, its getting a shitty mess in +8 and +9 even with more experienced players

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

its the worst low key boss for sure.

[@deenman23]

getting 1 shot by swirlies in a 4 on characters that seem overgeared for a 4 is a bit much i would say,i dont think those 1 shot me on my ret at 639 on a 10 actualy,also i was loling at the ret pala at the end complaining about the tank when he isnt even bothering to help dispel poison

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya always love seeing how people failing fours blame each other for it.

[@folonrng]

the final boss in this dungeon is just straight up aids. even if you know mechanics you could always get oneshot by a stray poison wave or kill yourself by running through your own wave. it's such a mess. whenever i play this i feel like a cat in a room with 20 running vacuum cleaners.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

It's hard for sure but come on, running through your own wave is an error lol...

[@folonrng]

@heythereguysitsMetro true but if you have to check for so many other things at the same time it can happen easier than one might think. doesn't happen often but when it does it oneshots

[@MrVaeron]

Yeah, that boss is really bad. Its the most unbalanced Boss in the game right now i think. If you dont have ANY dispell, you are fucked and just cant do higher Keys with some classes. And if you have 3 or 4 dispells (e.g. group full of Paly, Monks, Hunter, Evoker and Druids i think?!) its a fucking free kill. 2 seconds after the poison is casted, everybody is outside dispelling and going back in, you have plenty of time creating puddles, waves arent creeping randomly through the room if done correctly and your HPS are in the low 500k even in +10/+11. Its a key were im really picky with my groups.

[@bchrisn]

Not to write off this video but this is just mechanics 101. I've seen people die to this boss because they don't have foresight into how it should go. The #1 key destroyer in low keys are overzealous tanks.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

That's exactly why I made it to show that the "reality" is just player not doing the mechanics.

[@nucleartickz]

soon we shall see with our beloved flower boss on workshop ANND my favorite.. King mechagon, prepare your selves frens :p p.s HAPPY XMAS !

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

That's funny, those fights are pretty similar to this one!

[@dooleyh158]

It's a group of 5 players who don't understand the mechanics. They are all not doing what they are supposed to do. There's a lot to point out. They just need more experience, nothing wrong with that. I suggest that they watch training videos (Quazii makes the best ones). If they don't then this will continue to happen.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Correct.

[@981407036x]

i run 10s with my guild and friends, and occasionally pugs, this is by far my gang's most hated key. I have an ele sham friend who has already mentally resigned that he WILL 100% die on the last boss of arakara. I personally feel the same way when I play a class without some sort of cheese, eg pally bubble or dk march of the dead (i think thats what its called) personally I feel the puddles SHOULD NOT DISSAPEAR WHEN SOMEONE TOUCHES IT, it's too much co-ordination required, especially for a pug setting Is it do-able as it is currently? yes. is it bad design? yes. And lets not talk about the affixes going out during the suck phase, that's happened to us before and the boss just gets 7stacks for free

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Hmm the puddle disappears because it forms the blob that roots you lol. If didn't disappear you would just have dozens of blobs form.

[@nucleartickz]

soon it will become an issue as we had with quaking : you will have to check timer before pulling boss so you dont have a nasty overlap. ( please refer to last boss in sanguine depths with quaking xD)

[@981407036x]

@@heythereguysitsMetro yeah, but it could just be changed to an entangling roots or something, mmmm but it wont be interruptible maybe each puddle can spawn 2 blobs before disappearing? but now that's just arbitrary... it basically really sucks when you're going for a puddle and a teammate snatches it from you. and there's not enough time to loop around or go for another puddle i've found the solution is to avoid PUDDLES and run for a MOB that drops the puddle, usually works but damn that's really really expecting too much co-ordination from pugs tbh

[@jani14jani]

One thing that happens in low mists keys a lot is that people can't figure put which clone to attack during the mistcaller fight and people getting frozen by the fox.

[@prod.bygygahurts304]

Dude that fight drives me insane in low keys. Such a free boss turns into the most facedesking fight ever lolol

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya I'd imagine that one's a close second to this.

[@Toles1987]

As a non-Mythic+ player, I don't see the problem the one player has with gear being damaged. If you are doing any content each week and/or farming anything on alts, gold is not an issue... Just my 2 cents!

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

I wouldn't really call it a problem. Just something that gets brought up randomly.

[@klee1410]

Ya wars can just heroic leap out a split second after the hard yank in and you won't get hit

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Sounds powerful!

[@okCool51]

I think any class could do it no? The ability is just 1 Pull at 1 sec and then you can move freely

[@klee1410]

@@okCool51 the explosion happens too fast for anyone without some sort of fast movement. Wars can leap, mages can blink, pallies get a bubble, dk's ignore it with their bs, monks can roll, I suppose evokers can breath, but that might be too slow. I think everyone else is fucked, and pallies only get to bubble one... steed is too slow to get out of it.

[@Andrea-yx5rw]

Mistakes have been made by the players, no doubt. But those heavy mechanics boss fights are just bad design, especially for an environment like Mplus with heavy pug, same goes for the interruption/kick features.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

It's HARD design, not bad. It's intentionally meant to be hard. The problem I have is that the affixes really make this fight hectic. But this is actually the easiest dungeon and that fight is one of the easiest ones in the game numerically now. People just need to get better at it.

[@Vis_Electra]

Merry xMas Metro and everyone in the comment section! =)

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@Vis_Electra you too!

[@SleepynComics]

Thank you for your vids

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@SleepynComics it's my pleasure!

[@CosmicCleric]

I think most people want intuitive reactive gameplay, and not proactive/study-beforehand gameplay. M+ design really wants the latter, and not the former. And hence, failure and toxicity/emotion occurs. So, if you are Blizzard, do you give the customers what they want, or tell them to pound sand and play the game the way they want them to play it. The devs, as game designers, should not just be looking at the bell curse of the playerbase skill level, but also at the recreational requirements of the playerbase, and then decide how to they refactor (or not) M+ to get rid of the pain points. Sooner or later, the devs will either convert their customers, or lose them to other gameplay that allows the type of recreational experience that they want. [CC BY-NC-SA 4.0]

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Well for me, you design the game the way you want, and the people that don't like it, ya you tell them to "pound sand" as you put it. Anything more than that is pure entitlement which I am HEAVILY against here. The game is not that hard that you need the company to change it for you. You can just work on getting better, and luckily if you want to do that I can help.

[@Ennar]

Is that really true, though? It seems like people would love affixes if they truly wanted more reactive gameplay, but I don't think that's the case. The orbs that we see in this footage (whatever the name of the affix is) is probably hated by most players, because they can wipe you (too) easily in a boss fight even if you do everything correctly due to bad rng. M+ doesn't have to be that much of a study-beforehand, not nearly as much as raids, you can start at low keys and when something wipes you, you can ask others how to deal with mechanics, but that requires you to start playing at the start of season, when people won't get frustrated for you not knowing everything. Don't go into high keys until you are certain that you understand most if not all mechanics. Also, just owning up to mistakes can remove so much toxicity, a simple "mb" (my bad) in chat can really change the attitude of everyone. If you don't know what mistake you made, you can say "I'm sorry, I don't know what I did wrong, can anyone help?". I think more often than not you'll get "all good" or "do this and this", than people just hating on you. It seems that people just forget that it's mmo and you can communicate with other people in constructive way (most of us are adults, anyway). I don't believe m+ should be considered recreational gameplay and players need to adjust their expectations. Recreational gameplay is normal raids, heroic dungeons and m0's, delves, open world stuff, farming achievements, tmogs or mounts. There's lots to do in WoW, seriously. M+ is literally designed to challenge you more and more, opposite of recreational. Of course, if you get good enough, even 10s can be considered recreational, but that's not most players which we are discussing here.

[@CosmicCleric]

@@heythereguysitsMetro When it comes to recreational activities, entitlement isn't really relevant, that's a pseudo-political belief system thats being injected into a video game. What's FUN for the players, is what matters. I know people have knee-jerk reactions and yell "Welfare Epics!" all the time, but in reality, a good game design will reward for effort and ability, and not just for 'hard work' and success. Noone likes to have their time wasted, especially when its rare recreational time. Basically, its ok to not have someone walk 20 miles during a snowstorm uphill both ways, before they can enjoy themselvs, in a video game. Also, my primary point was more of a reactive/intuitive gameplay, vs a proactive/study-beforehand gameplay, which the latter is allot more work that needs to be done for a recreational activity. People will only do so much (based on what they find as fun) before not doing it anymore, aka unsubbing. [CC BY-NC-SA 4.0]

[@CosmicCleric]

@@Ennar"It seems like people would love affixes if they truly wanted more reactive gameplay" Don't think affixes == reactive gameplay. Those are static buffs that exist on mobs/environment. What i meant by reactive is that mob does A in real time, so player does B in response, Proactive would be player learns everything that mob A can do before they do it, and than plans for it during the battle. "M+ doesn't have to be that much of a study-beforehand, not nearly as much as raids, you can start at low keys and when something wipes you, you can ask others how to deal with mechanics" Not from what I've seen. You need to know routes, and knowing the fight mechanics beforehand, or get chewed out/toxic behavior by your teammates. And asking others after a wipe who would most likely be toxic at that point, doesn't seem like a smart thing to do (unfortunately, but thats where we are today), and would be considered 'studying' for an encounter (having to learn it). People really just want to group up and do a dungeon crawl with their friends, hard enough to make it challenging, but not so hard that there's lots of death and group toxicity. And they don't want to study for it, they just want to experience it as is as they go. Edit: Elaborated on the sentence about reactive/proactive. [CC BY-NC-SA 4.0]

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@CosmicCleric The problem here is the content is SUPPOSED to be hard. If you don't find that enjoyable, then its just not for you. Not really much to discuss past that tbh. If for you, the way to make it more fun, is to make the content easier, then you are just entitled and that I can not support. Blizzard doesn't really either, and thankfully. It would kill the game if they just did everything people asked for like that. But again, if you or anyone you know is struggling to progress, send them my way. Happy to help in any way I can.

[@kaliyvga1426]

Paladin and evoker were so bad, yet they commented on tank gameplay

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

To be fair, the tank was holding them back, no matter how bad everyone else was.

[@kaliyvga1426]

@@heythereguysitsMetro You can tell the same about Paladin who could use his freedom on evoker

[@kaliyvga1426]

or... do more puddles since he has many ranged spells

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@kaliyvga1426 not sure why people do this. What's your inability to just look at where the end of the line is? They can't kill the boss because the tank keeps dying. That's the terminal point of failure. All other mistakes don't matter more than that one.

[@kaliyvga1426]

@@heythereguysitsMetro i saw that, but others did lots of mistakes and dying for no reason too. All group should practice in m0 for 10 times in a row. and read their abilities and bind them

[@Frontsnorri]

People shouldn’t be able to enter M+ until they have at LEAST completed the dungeon on M0 and have a rudimentary understanding of what’s going on. In a timed environment people shouldn’t be having to explain mechanics to you but unfortunately you have players coming in at 605+ilvl from delves getting into keys that they have no idea what’s going but got invited because of their gear. I’m so glad I don’t have to deal with these cesspool level keys because I swear anything under a 14 seems to be full of drama

[@Muziejininkas]

To get a job you need experience, but to get experience you need a job. Same here😅 Most ppl require item level over skill and thats what they get.

[@ThomasBachler01]

M0 doesn't teach you anything though. A Prot wari just pops spell reflect every time this happens and I am pretty sure he lives it no matter what gear he has on a M0. M0 is not the solution, its like LFR.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@Frontsnorri ya I guess you didn't finish the video haha. This guy has already done the dungeon on 2.

[@Xanthem420promotes]

I have a better success rate with 8+ than 7 or lower lol...anything 10 and up runs the absolute smoothest whether or not it times...

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya it's not uncommon to say that. The higher you go the easier it's getting in the pug world at times.

[@xMovingTarget]

low keys are a bad experience because the delve enjoyers. They get decently good gear by soloing delves and then just head into M+ with no idea about anything.

[@Robin...222]

This was already a problem before delves excisted

[@TheUnderJaker]

a +4 has nothing to do with gear lol. its people not paying attention. this key watching it very quickly seeing the healer is bad at the evoker range constantly his bars were grey and couldn't heal people. and thats just a small issue.

[@Netherstrasz]

@@xMovingTarget This isn’t new this expansion. Has been going on for a while. Players simply don’t care. There ARE good low key groups but far and few between. People need to do better

[@Netherstrasz]

@ Gear always matters. For some people and their gear, experience and overall proficiency of the game, a +4 can be tough. We need more empathy for this and it’s one of the reasons we have toxicity-the same methodology for thinking gear doesn’t matter is thinking mechanics don’t matter because “it’s only a 4.” Just like when you do a 12, gear matters just like skill, experience,mechanics and mastery of your class

[@TheUnderJaker]

@ people are not wiping in 4s because of lack of gear lol. It definitely does not matter. You’re saying 2 completely different things. Mechanics are what actually matters, gear does not.

[@maugst.2523]

All of those problems because people can't read the Dungeon Codex... Or even have death analyzing critical thinking...

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya the latter is more important than anything. Seems like no one is learning anything here.

[@Ariaaae]

in poe2 when you hover over a skill it shows a very short video that explains the skill in one or two sentences. why can't we update the dungeon journal and add more visual stuff there? just a short clip where the main mechanics are explained would be a huge help already.

[@Dea7hWarran7]

⁠@@AriaaaeI’d say “great idea”, but if people CBA to even open the dungeon journal, they’re not likely to watch a .gif animation of each ability.

[@Clickoskar]

Have disbands on 3 and 4 on alts so it is a real thing

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Well I was talking about legitimately not upgrading one. If you run into that please record it and send it in.

[@gordonwong3125]

This should be a big eye opener for any groups disbanding after the first wipe

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya it really should be. 4 full wipes to bosses and its still timable. Pretty crazy.

[@rootlo]

you can wipe and time in an 11 also. Ive had some double digit deaths in 11's that ive pushed, even early in the season.

[@Whimsykiller]

Except the end shows that disband after that 2nd wipe woulda just saved everyone some time, as the group clearly couldn't handle the mechanics as shown by the very first boss. Isn't always an early leave because its untimeable, its an early leave because the group is really bad and its not worth the time.

[@gordonwong3125]

@Whimsykiller that's true, sometimes you know the grp cannot handle the mechanics 3sp last boss of arakara

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@Whimsykiller wait what? The tank died three times to being pulled in. In what way does that mean the group can't handle the mechanics?

[@NeedsMorePants]

I'm one of those people where 10s are still progression. Granted, life got in the way for the past while and a half, but still, I'm at the point where I can't evaluate everything in a pug by myself on whether someone else sucks, I suck, or what

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Well I was more talking about the concept that people say that they can't actually beat tens. But ya you have come to the right place. Get some footage of stuff that's hard for you and I'll take a look!

[@jhonwayne1003]

10s and 11s are a breeze. 634 ret pally. I try to get into 12s but denied. No clue why. That’s where I’m stuck.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Have you tried doing your own key?

[@jhonwayne1003]

@ Multiple times. Fools want to wipe and leave. 5 keys in a row today some left after a first wipe. I sent even understand how you wipe on a 10 in the first place.

[@Aegea291]

Fact is, this season is too hard for pugs. People don’t kick, they don’t know mechs, or they don’t move out of stuff. Maybe they farm delves and get reasonable gear and just expect to faceroll m+ low keys, or because last season, keys were much easier, and all these people got carried? I don’t know. I feel like it’s somewhere towards the middle. I’m just sick of not timing low keys. Also this time around, raider io rating seems to mean nothing, so taking what you think are experienced players often doesn’t work. The only people having fun this season are people doing high keys. I think they need to make low keys easier and keep the high keys hard, or they’ll lose most of their M+ players. And then if you stay in a bad key and finish it anyway (without timing it) you often don’t get a rating increase, so blizz is effectively saying “haha you just wasted your time” which just feels bad.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya I don't buy it. You see five wipes to bosses here and it's still timable. Nothing needs to change other than the players improving.

[@MrVaeron]

Well, more important than RIO is timed keys. Its the only thing i look for in my Groups. if you have 20 timed +10/11 and 40 timed 7-9 you are probl. at least capeable of doing it. That being sad, i also suspect that the combination of easy to obtain gear from Delves and some 10 Keylevel missing leads to watering down the RIO. Cause way more bad people are getting unintentionally boosted than before. Instead of then somehow getting stuck around +10/+12 in the old system, they end up applying for +8/+9 in the new one and again... getting boosted by better player farming Crests. The amount of errors i see in my farming keys is insane, but it does not matter, if people that are doing +11/+12 are farming those lower keys. I hope that in S2, the changed reward system leads to people playing higher keys instead of boosting even more +8/+9

[@Aegea291]

@@MrVaeronit’s so weird honestly - you’ll get one or two super smooth keys and it goes how you expect it to go, then it will be just a chain of untimed bad keys and dungeons that seem to wildly vary in difficulty.

[@Aegea291]

It’s so weird, you’ll get 5 awful groups, then you’ll get 1 or 2 who steamroll the dungeon as it should be done, feeling very like last season.

[@Ougagagoubou]

Doesn't matter what key level it is, decision on quitting at first boss would be based on whether you think cluelessness of the people will make rest of the dung too much of a drag. 2 wipes on generally having no idea on first boss is likely to lead to 5 wipes AND disband on last boss in AK. The only time when I'd really wish to quit is when I think continuing is only going to lead to longer disband later. Writing this while paused at 7min. I'm going to expect so many deaths on the boss pull mechanism.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Well it happened, but not for the reason you thought it would have.

[@Ougagagoubou]

@@heythereguysitsMetro Well you didn't focus on what got tank killed. He died to pull mechanism 3 times, because that was the only thing that could've done 50%+ of his hp to kill him at those times. Granted, most of other deaths happened due to people not knowing root can be kicked. But had tank known how to work pull mech, key would've been finished.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@Ougagagoubou Yes, that's exactly what I meant with my first reply. I absolutely did focus on what got the tank killed, no idea how you could say I didn't.

[@Ougagagoubou]

@@heythereguysitsMetro I basically said I expect deplete to happen due to pull mech fails. It did. You said 'it' (=deplete) happened but not for reason I stated. There were not dozen deaths to it as anticipated, but it was the reason nonetheless due to tank death counting as 5 deaths here.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@Ougagagoubou the reason it depleted is because the warrior doesn't know the fight and no one explains it to him is where I stand on it.

[@Suprafan69]

All I know is I did not start doing higher keys til season 3 of dragonflight and I was having a blast! got all the portal on all the dungeons we did! I was having fun so far this season I only have 1 portal and we can NOT time 10s it is NOT fun anymore. I am NOT a great player I'd say average at best. Maybe this game was designed for the elite players now and us casuals should just stop playing????? I know a lot of players I play with thinking the same way as I

[@Aegea291]

I think last season had high participation in M+ and it was fun - you could push keys and get off when you wanted to. Now when the odds of timing a 3-7 are so bad, it’s just not fun. Plus the rewards and gear progression and rng is awful. You may as well do delves and craft gear and skip M+ entirely

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@Suprafan69 why not just work harder on improvement?

[@Suprafan69]

@@heythereguysitsMetro I'm not having fun why play something that is NOT fun? We keep doing keys almost EVERY night but not doing as many my toons I play most are 629 and 623 ilvl. We try to do better everytime we play. We timed every 10 in season 4 and season 3 it was fun then. We stream our keys and try to get a full gruop of ppl we know but not as many wanting to do keys now...

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@Suprafan69 certainly if you aren't having fun don't do it. But please do not suggest that you are incapable of upgrading tens. You aren't. If you need help just let me know. Happy to review some footage.

[@Suprafan69]

@@heythereguysitsMetro I'm just saying we have only timed 1 10 not say we will NEVER time one again I'm just saying the frustration of not timing them have made it no fun.Who has fun failing 10s or better EVERYTIME but once. IMO they've made this game for the elites that always complain about casuals getting mythic gear. I JUST WANT to HAVE FUN! That is what I pay my sub for. I appreciate the offer to review video but hell I don't even know how to do that lol. I graduated HS before there was public internet lol

[@bbbbb8191]

"Telling other people what to do" my man...in this cesspool of key level if you dare to make some constructive criticism you get gunned down or right clicked ignored. Not 100% of the people are like this but if you are only pugging I can say with confidence that 4 out of 5 are. Best thing to do is do never stress about it, if you time it great, if not gg better luck next time.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@bbbbb8191 maybe in higher keys I can agree with you. But I'm sure that tank doesn't want to keep dying like that.

[@dracoknight9066]

Evoker was huge part of this failure(aside from tank mechs). First of all, he is running echo build and wasting essence procs on disintegrate, which does nothing(dmg scaling on it when not talented is so bad hardcasting living flame does more). Second, he has Wing Buffet(the knockback) unbound. On this affix, that's borderline grief. It is cc that procs orbs, has cone large enough that you can get all orbs 90% of the time and cd as long as the mechanic. A competent Evoker will make this mechanic barely noticable. The melees do not die to standing in swirlies on first boss. They die to failing the affix as it hastes the boss and makes swirlies hit before the visual. You can see boss turning purple right after they die. And on last boss he should have dispelled himself insta as it guarantees evoker Mastery proccing for a fathealing boost.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

This isn't really about who was better or worse than there rest. Its just mainly to show that the idea that low keys are too hard is obviously incorrect, and that everyone needs to just play better if they are failing. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

[@cy2326]

i heavily agree that this evoker was a huge part of the wipes and its ironic that he is the one sending the video to complain about not timing keys. his positioning is horrible while the add is fixating on him he leads his own add away from the pack while kiting it making it harder to burst them all down with aoe and absolutely zero cc and he has plenty. people doing this level of keys will think that the dungeon is hard or the other players are at fault when its absolutely also their fault.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@cy2326 This key was sent in by request, not due to complaints. No idea where you got that from, I even explained that in the very start of the vidoe. I have been asking for people to find me examples of very low keys failing to better understand the problem, and this is one of those.

[@cy2326]

​@@heythereguysitsMetro he obviously thought that failing this key was due to everything else other than his individual mistakes otherwise he wouldn't want uploaded footage of this not so flattering gameplay. and that's the reason why they fail. people are not aware they actively contribute to the fiesta they experience in low keys.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@cy2326 Nope. no idea why you are making that assumption. We don't just make videos blasting people here. Its always to help people learn. Here is the quote from the email sent: "I'm still kind of learning so yes for sure I made some mistakes, I can admit it! I have to adjust and will improve over time, that's why I record my keys so I can improve. I will also say I definitely did offer for key break as I didn't want anyone to feel pressured to stay as the Tank was obviously frustrating everyone. But I don't think that disbanding keys is good, I'm totally on your side. Just was trying to be cool with the guys, you know? I want to say it was the tank standing in bad that killed the key but as you'll see, everyone was making mistakes myself included."

[@asasdsaasda]

This is a good example of why in my humble opinion M+ level squish was a mistake, 4 became a 'decent' level and in my experience majority of players don't learn from mistakes, ''It's not my fault I die, just the healer's, not my fault, the tank pull extra'', usually in your video the guy that summits the footage is decent to good but this healer was over his head with this key, blizzard needs to go back to 1-30+ level, I sincerely believe it was better than now

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Gotcha, ya I feel the exact opposite. I'd rather these people fail and have to face the music than succeed for hours before they start failing and then have no idea why.

[@asasdsaasda]

@@heythereguysitsMetro I had the same opinion as you till this season, people refuse to learn, and refuse to have a proper 'skill' progress, when I started learning healer I refused to jump keys, I started from 2 and did everything 1 by 1, till 16, even when my friends told me I'm more than ready for 16 and should start doing 16 for vault and gear I refuse to do it because I was not ready, I was ready in a group full of friends but not in pugs, the reward for that was a title as a healer

[@prod.bygygahurts304]

Been killing the content lately dude 🫡 for the algorithm!

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@prod.bygygahurts304 thanks!