Errata Text Minisode: Drink From Another Well

[@BlueBeetle1939]

What you're REALLY saying here is we should find a way to turn magic the gathering into the Stanley parable

[@Kohdok]

"This was not the right colored Mana, and Stanley knew this perfectly well..."

[@Jomalequi]

there is Inscryption, is something alike

[@BiaZarr]

I know that this isn't what you mean, but, i just want to point out, that since MTG is actually proven to be a turing complete programming language, it is actually possible to program the Stanley Parable in Mtg, thus actually turning Mtg into the Stanley Parable

[@Ratstail91]

This is a story about a man named Urza...

[@achehex]

I've been playing around with the idea of a game that's basically just taking Link Monsters from YGO out of the extra deck and revolve the whole game around the arrows, so your main concern is where do you place a card to get the most value and the least risk, and I did end up falling in the trap of just making a game with the MTG resource system surgically attached to it. I think Digimon to me proved that you can have an interesting resource system that isn't just playing 1 card a turn to get thing, but an actually relatively deep mini game within the main game about doing as much as you can while giving back as little. This video really felt like a wake up call, great work as always!

[@DefHalan]

I love the idea of Link Monsters but haven't really liked how Yu-Gi-Oh uses them. I would be interested to see what you are making. I also recommend checking out Eye of Judgement as it was a positioning based monster summoning game as well

[@iloveyandex4862]

you could use mix of wixoss and yugioh resource systems, aka discarding cards to summon weaker monsters and bigger monsters requiring sacrificing monsters (sometimes multiple of them) on the field on top of discarding cards to create the feeling of gradual evolution/fusing of the monsters

[@revimfadli4666]

I wonder if modern boardgames could be a great source of inspiration. After all, the Chrono Clash system is basically a simpler version of Patchwork's time track. Maybe Glory to Rome, Innovation, Impulse, Race for the Galaxy, Beer & Bread, Mottainai, Vault of the Void, and Res Arcana could be nice starting points?

[@iloveyandex4862]

@@revimfadli4666 for tcg you need a resource system thats easy to understand and keep track of without unnecessary junk

[@JHZech]

You should check out Card City Nights 2. It's a positioning based game on a shared board with arrows on the cards.

[@calcium8347]

this is such good advice for any field. im like 90% theres a hideaki anno quote where he talks about anime directors taking inspiration from other mediums. its so important to keep things fresh and interesting.

[@SeedSnatcher]

I remember someone saying that when Osamu Tezuka came onto the scene, "everyone wanted to be like him or wanted to break way from him", and I think that's the position the industry is in vis-a-vis Magic the Gathering

[@Spudmay]

This was great stuff to hear. It can be very hard to create out of that box. Having that "clone scrutiny" is good, I think. Always take that look at your project to make sure you aren't using crutches of familiarity.

[@DaveTheGreat0008]

Thank you I just had a breakthrough thanks to this video. My card game was stuck being a magic like and it was bothering me but this video just kicked down the door of possibilities. The ideas are just flooding in right now!

[@christopheroyola2470]

Honestly, this channel plus input from game designers has made me satisfied with my Expandable Card Game that I hope to release in 2024. While I do view the game as having some similarities to Duel Masters and MTG, I did work on the other core game play principles to feel different and refreshing to expand on other game design that has not been touched in some turn based strategy games. I am hoping that my product will be received as a refreshing change of pace in this genre. As I demo the game with random seasoned card game players, I love seeing their minds work and strategize in new ways that MTG and Yugioh fail to do. Part of me wants to have someone else publish it while I can be a player of this game. Again, I have to thank Kohdok, GDC, and other youtube channels alongside game developers for helping me mold my game to be unique its own right and not be straight up MTG clone.

[@laurenhahn8569]

4:57 Is it weird that I recognized the little floating robot from the direct-to-DVD Hot Wheels movie and realized that there's a hot wheels TCG purely because of that

[@PlasticSiding]

Really appreciate the theme of this video. My current game I’m developing definitely fell into the Magicalike category and just never felt right. I started looking at other systems and found netrunner and a few other more obscure games actually had a similar feel to what I was going for. Great meta discussion of game design, thanks for another good video!

[@GoldRanger1]

Over the past week I’ve watched this whole series, I think. I’m finally caught up 👏🏽

[@BookmakerMakes]

I spent about a year being just about the only person willing to read and give notes on rulebooks/systems in the Homemade Trading Card Game Discord server. (HTCG) Almost every single one of them was either a Magic or a Yu-Gi-Oh clone to a tee. I got tired of it, even more so when I realized that the majority of the people who were making these perfectly mirrored copies of Yu-Gi-Oh tried to lash out at me for calling it as it was. It takes a lot to make a decent card game. Art, mechanics, theme and style, and it takes time like you wouldn't want to believe. Most people are not capable of doing 100% of that workload. And most work in progress card games in that server are being made by a single developer, so drinking from a familiar well becomes a comfort. And while most of them thought they were doing a new twist on it, they were really only highlighting something that was already there.

[@Yinyanyeow]

Probably not a good time with what is near (holidays) but I do got two fan games I made that might be interesting for you to look at. (Let me know if you are curious about them.)

[@BookmakerMakes]

@@Yinyanyeow been a long time since I reviewed a card game rule book, and I would like to give yours a shot but I am in the middle of writing my own book series while also giving editing notes to a writer friend of mine on one of her potentially upcoming books. If you study Kohdok's videos, you're going to be on a better path. But, if possible, find a trustworthy partner that can fill in the weakest parts of your card game making skill set. Or barring that, someone excited to see updates. Just know that failure is an option, and sometimes needed. I was originally in the HTCG server to work on my own card game, Great Hall. But now I am working on miniatures, writing a book, and providing editing notes for someone who already published works before. Suffice it to say that life is a river. You don't always know, or like, where it takes you. But if you try hard enough,you will find yourself where you need to be.

[@Yinyanyeow]

@@BookmakerMakes I know. And thanks for your encouraging text. It's kind of funny that I experienced 2 of the 3 (Pokémon & Yu-Gi-Oh) and got inspired by the only one left that I could take (Pokémon) in any sense. I'll look for more players though I was you good luck and happy gaming.

[@BookmakerMakes]

@@Yinyanyeow Go forth and conquer, my child, for this world is in need of being forged into something greater. (No stealing, Internet. That's going into my book.)

[@fernandobanda5734]

Just wanna say you were doing god's work by giving all that feedback. The world of amateur creation, especially for complex things like games, is so so dried out of people that are willing to read and give feedback. The majority of posts are people explaining their idea with 0 comments.

[@MrShinyObject]

Thank you expanding on this. I always try to search out card games that don't work like MtG when doing research, and it's always really difficult. Power/Toughness is in almost every game. One resource card per turn is in almost every game. Reducing an opponents life points to 0 (or yours up to a number, functionally the same). Every card game I see has usually two or more of those. A huge part of why I joined your channel and why I love Cards from the abyss is to find new stuff. I know you did it a bit here, but I would love to hear you talk about some of your favorite games that play nothing like Magic.

[@BookmakerMakes]

The Dice Tower has a video on various Victory Conditions. It is focused more on board games, though. kzbin.info/www/bejne/j3ucfY1uptB6r8U I did a quick, cursory glance but I don't believe Kohdok has touched on this subject, specifically.

[@j453]

Sometimes I sit down to work on my card game design ideas and I honestly wonder, do I really want to make a game, or do I just want to get back into "game X" (insert your personal favorite tcg) My favorite tcg died. They remade it but it's just not the same. Sometimes I think I should just make my own cards based on that game that died, keep those cards for myself and not wory about trying to publish anything. Does anyone else ever think that?

[@fernandobanda5734]

Yes. There's nothing wrong with designing cards for an existing game, especially if you have a playgroup who will have happily play what you come up with. On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with not publishing a newly designed game, and if that's the case making it "Magic but X" is a great way to start.

[@Stinkoman87]

I got in to game design making fake Yu-Gi-Oh cards. Now the game I'm currently working on has an extra deck as a key component. You can start with making cards for your beloved old game, and maybe that will inspire you to tweak the rules you didn't like, and add in new mechanics you think might be fun, and you might eventually develop that into it's own thing.

[@empireyouth5791]

Yes I did this specifically with Buddy fight and it’s hurt, I loved by buddy fight so much, it felt like the perfect marriage between magic and Yu-Gi-Oh, A game where building up resources was possible and can make decisions later down the line faster and easier, what’s a GameWare spending resources rapidly to attack relentlessly and beat your opponent to death fast was also on the table. I loved it so much

[@McCrispyBread]

Focus on the rules of the game, making sure it's unique enough. It's hard sometimes with so many different tcgs but I think the art and "archetypes" is what makes a tcg stand out.

[@marvelsandals4228]

I started out as a young lad who thought the blue eyes white dragon was the best card evar, despite not knowing any of the rules beyond what I saw on TV. I have long since abandoned Yu-Gi-Oh!, dabbled in a bit of MTG, but really had a pleasant surprise in the new Digimon game. Idk why I ended up there of all places, but once I got my foot in the door I found that many aspects of the game that are radically different from others I've played before are tbh a huge breath of fresh air and a source for unique experiences. Moral of the story: if you're not enjoying your card game, maybe take a break & play something else, to shake things up. Later, if you are homesick, you can always go back to your old stomping grounds.

[@Talguy21]

And interesting card game I used to play that didn't even cameo here didn't drink from Magic's well very much at all: The My Little Pony CCG, of all things. In that game, players each provided a Problem deck with certain power costs. They're placed in the middle of the board. The power costs facing that deck's owner had a smaller number with specific power colors and the opponent got a larger but generic total to work towards. (And each Problem could have its own effect text, too.) Players would use their Mane Character, which was a commander-like card with a starting and empowered side, as well as various Friend cards and of course some instant effects and things to move to the problem decks and solve them for victory points. Each of the six colors had its own flavors, and went about their strategies in different ways. I played a mono-Blue deck, and it solved problems though high mobility, letting you swarm problem cards quickly. Sometimes interesting game design comes from unusual places, doesn't it?

[@greedtheron8362]

Haha! I'm already on this path by not making a magic-like, but making a flesh and blood-like! I don't know if that's much better, but I like it.

[@tipulsar85]

I'm having an interesting time coming up with my mechanics and where it can be different enough from the games I know and yet have a fertile R&D depth. This is harder than most people think.

[@Digital_Acid]

I'd like to point out that having 5+ colors and a resource row isn't necessarily a death knell for your game. There have been a handful of games that have had a very respectable success despite the clear aping of MTG. One example I can think of off the top of my head is a game that had a very limited run in the west, Battle Spirits. That game has very clear Magic inspiration but the main draw (at least for me) is it's resource system, the Cores. No, they aren't lands with a different name or creature cards turned upside down, they're a unique and separate game piece. You used them to not only pay cost for summoning them but also to keep them on field, because if a creature has no cores on it, it disappears. Even if you cheat it out.

[@BookmakerMakes]

I will have to look into it further, as I have heard the name Battle Spirits but never saw the game or cards in action, but it sounds like Pokemon's energy system with a death penalty if a Pokemon has no energy attached.

[@fernandobanda5734]

@@BookmakerMakes The big difference ia that the cores are reusable. It's more like if lands stayed tapped for things you spent them on until that thing leaves the field. There's also an added layer where you can "overpay" for something to make it bigger, and you can rearrange the cores as you fit, so you can just kill a creature you don't need anymore if it helps you pay for something else.

[@c.d.dailey8013]

I love this video. It is so rare for me to watch something so encouraging on KZbin. This may seem harsh and critical at first. Then I realize that I feel free to have my own creative spin. The first game I got really into was Pokemon. When I was a kid I played both the card game and the video game. The card game may seem similar to MTG at first. However it is a lot more focused on creatures as opposed to spells. The video gets this creature focus across. I started making my own games back then. First I would make Pokemon cards. Then I would replace that with cards of my own creatures. Later I got into World of Warcraft. Then that inspired me further. I did get my own kind of card game. Here is how it goes. Each creature has two kinds of counters. I use different colors of flat marbles for counters. One kind of counter tracks hit points. The other tracks energy. A creature starts out with all of its energy. Then the energy goes down, as it uses attacks. It is like the mana in World of Warcraft. This energy works very differently than the resource cards of MTG and the Pokemon TCG. Not even the mana crystals of Hearthstone work like this. Another component is the attributes. I have attributes that go in pairs of opposites. Every one that could help the user is counteracted by one that hinders the opponent. Here are two examples. A creature may use its potency to boost its own damage. However the resistance of the opponent can lower that damage. A creature may use agility to speed up, but the charisma of the opponent can slow it down. When attributes are paired in opposites, they cancel each other out. It makes gaming calculations so much easier. This is a unique system I came up with on my own. This can be my well to drink from. From my basic idea, I did think of ways to elaborate. First I got an element system. It is something inspired by Pokemon. I have a system of 16 types. Then they have a system of paper-rock-scissors. There is some creativity in figuring out the details. I even got five elements that are not in Pokemon. They are light, sound, lava, gravity and cosmic. Later I got a class system, which was inspired by World of Warcraft. There is a system where classes fulfil party roles bases on attacks and attributes. I did my own creative spin in making all the classes based on magicians. Each kind of magician has it own magic specialty. The four main classes are shaman, mage, warlock and priest. Mage and Priest have the same role. The other two classes are different. The shaman uses magic to turn invisible and ambush opponents with quick magical strikes. This is the magician replacement of a rogue. The warlock uses magic to form protective bubbles that prevent damage from occurring. This is the magician replacement of a warrior. This is like the magical shield that Priests use in World of Warcraft. There are sixteen classes. Four are basic. The rest are mixes of those four. I get really creative and draw from magician types. I even cam up with witch, oracle, seer and alchemist classes. I haven't seen those in RPGs before. I eventually came up with a creative spin. The cards are played in a game, and they can be used for battle. Yet the game is also a role playing game. There is an overall story with a progression and leveling systems. It is a combo of an RPG and CCG. I can repicate the experience of an RPG. However instead of a video game or paper, there are cards to keep track of everything. I got into MTG a lot more recently. I have only been a fan for a few years. There is a lot of good in this game. It can be boiled down in a few things. One the color pie is fascinating. Two the variety of mechanics is so much fun. Three the lore is extremely creative. This is all great stuff. I can't complain. The downside is that it is easy to fall into the trap of making MTG knockoffs. It is is like how RPGs tend to borrow a lot from Dungeons and Dragons. Classes and attributes are very common in this kind of game. There was a time, I made cards like MTG. It was a learning experience. I learn what works and what doesn't work. With this video, I found out, that I don't have to adhere so rigidly to MTG. One tricky video on this channel is about the deck and some dice. I worried that using two kinds of counters may be too cumbersome for a card game. It may get to much like a bord game. Then I realized that this can work if the counters were replaced by dice. The game mechanics are left intact. Dice just work as an efficient counting tool. Regular dice are ubiquitous. Gaming stores have fancy dice that come in all shapes and colors. Any game that tracks hit points can use dice. Even the Pokemon TCG can do this. I was thinking of ways to expand my game using inspiration of MTG. It would be cool to have separate cards for attacks. The attacks can do damage and do other effects. There can even be attack permanents, and expand on that. In MTG these permanents are called enchantments. Some enchantments can attach to creatures, and they are called auras. Maybe there can be a stack of attack cards. When attacks are used, they are put in a discard pile. From that, there can be more variation of fighters. I would like to have separate element and class cards attach creatures. It is far more efficient than to try to have a separate card for every combination. Sixteen elements and sixteen classes multiply to form a ton of combinations. I think of colors as being its own system. They are sort of like elements and sort of like classes. There are possibilities for new mechanics. Green can gain more resource cards, which are lands.. With my basic system, there is no resource cards. However I can replace that with gaining energy. It is something I had for a while. In World of Warcraft there was a rare case of a spell being used to restore mana. Blue can manipulate the deck, while black can manipulate the discard pile. Maybe the stack of attack cards can be manipulated in the same way. There is also removal and resurrection of creatures. Such effects would be overpowered in a game focused so much on creatures. I could shift that to enchantment like cards instead. Figuring out more mechanics would be used to bring extra variety of class system. Another thing to keep in mind is the unmixable attributes video on the channel. That is a whole other way to define attribute. Having only one kind of energy can make it too easy for players to find an overpowered combination and put to much constraint on the meta. Now I realized that there can be an alternate way. I can have players fight with only four creatures. That is loose enough to get some variety on a team, and there can be members covering each other's weaknesses. However it is still very tight. A player can use only a fraction of the elements and classes. So different players can put together different teams, and have a good variety. Creature restriction is in the Pokemon video game too. There are eighteen elements and hundreds of species. However a trainer is only allowed to carry six Pokemon at a time. I think my own battle system would be a lot more fast paced than in MTG. If a creature has a full set of energy, there is nothing stopping it from using its most powerful attacks and winning quickly. I have thought that maybe this is a good thing. In an RPG adventure, battles are quicker. The player fights and wins a creature quickly and move onto the exploring. Pokemon video games can be really fast. Between exploiting the leveling system and the element system, I usually just one shot my opponents.

[@c.d.dailey8013]

There can be a levelin in the card game. Both Pokemon and World of Warcraft video games have a leveling system. There is a lot of character customization built into the leveling and progression proccess. MTG and TCGs in general have a ton of customization in deck building. Both are fun to explore. Maybe I can combine both. I got to be careful to avoid too much grinding. Too much grinding is boring. Early Pokemon games were really bad at this. The main reason why I battled as quickly as I could was to make grinding more efficient. Leveling was faster in the later games, and I think that is the best quality of life improvement Pokemon ever had. Some veterans hate on it for making the game too easy. However I am a fan. I think of it as skipping through the most boring part of the game, so I can get to the fun part. World of Warcraft has quests as an even better way to deal with grinding. It requires just as much work, but it is more fun to get the short term goals. It is fair. The one great quality of life change World of Warcraft had later on was level scaling. It didn't make the game easier per se. It just gives more freedom to explore the world and adventure in the more preferred zones. It is the same amount of work either way. The MTG and Pokemon TCG has a slow progression of resource cards. I thought that maybe this can be replaced by leveling. Pokemon makes the connection in evolutions. Small Pokemon evolve to get bigger and stronger. They also look fancier and more intimidating. In the video game, Pokemon usually evolve by leveling up. In the TCG Pokemon evolve during the battle itself. Evolved Pokemen tend to need more resource cards to use thier attacks. I can have a big tradeoff in cards. More powerful cards are only available at later levels and require more energy. Later levels can also increase attributes, health and energy. The level system can have lots of customization with lots of elements, classes and cards. MTG has its own philosophy. Each color has its own personality and outlook on life. It is fascinating. I enjoy learning about it. There are even whole videos about MTG philosophy. It is important to remember that this doesn't have to be adhered to entirely. Harry Potter and Game of Thrones have their own personality systems, and they work fine. I have developed my own system. It came from my extensive study of New Age and psychology. Here is a brief overview. There is a set of two opposite things. They are poles. Light is associated with white and rational. Dark is associated with black and intuitive. There are also four elements. They go from light to dark. They are in order earth, fire, water and air. Earth is associated with green, physical and economy. Fire is associated with red, intellectual and education. Water is associated with blue, ethical and government. Air is associated with yellow, spiritual and religion. Fire and water are opposites in both the concrete substance and abstract ideas. Earth and air are also opposites. I already formed the basics of my system long before getting into MTG. My system is very different from MTG system. I do greatly admire how a lot of the worldbuilding reflects color. This is an amazing kind of execution, that I would like to put into my world. The first plane I learned about was Ravnica. I was a big fan of how the guilds worked. As cool as this is, it doesn't mean I have to adhere to MTG philosophy. I can just draw on my own philosophy and use the same kind of execution. There are a lot of differences. White and black are the biggest pair of opposites. Yet they have completely opposite meaning in the two systems. MTG uses meanings that would only make sense in the context of a Christianized culture. This is where white is more spiritual. It won't work in my world. I lean heavily into Paganism with little to no reference to Christianity. My favorite depiction of polarity in in Taoism, so I make my pair more like that. This is where black is more spiritual. The second biggest pair of opposites is red and blue. Again, this is where the systems are opposites. Water is traditionally associated with emotions. So I go for that in my system. Fire is tricky, because it is associated with action instead of ideas. I did change it to be about intellect to better contrast water. MTG has the meaning reversed. It is wierd. It does make sense for red to be more offensive and active. It does make sense for blue to have intellect and flying creatures together. However blue is mainly associated with water, and it is intellectual. It is just odd. The strangest color is black. I prefer things in fours. It is balanced, stable and fleshed out that way. I like four basic elements, four basic classes etc. MTG has five. It may seem very elegant at first. However it can be uneven. Black is the strangest color. It goes beyond the usual fantasy of the game and gets into horror. It has the strangest role in mechanics. It works with the graveyard, so it is the only color that doesn't resemble a class. I do like playing black because of the versatility. However I wonder if that makes black too overpowered. I am even thinking if its, mechanics would be better served as being distributed in the other colors. One can use black color pairs as a guide. Green gets stuff from the graveyard such as resurrected creatures. Red gets sacrifice. Blue gets milling. White gets health draining. Black is also odd in terms of philosophy. It is the individualist color. One of its major traits is being amoral. It ignores social rules while pursuing personal desires. Funny thing is that blue can be amoral too. It ignores social rules while pursuing knowledge. Of all allied pairs, black and blue are the most similar. It is similar enough to be lumped together. In my system I lump individualism and intellectualism in the red fire category. School is an excellent example of the two going together. Students learn in school. It also focuses more on the individual achievement of getting good grades. Schools can get competitive with the best students getting special rewards and recognition. By contrast, I think that white and red are the enemy color pair that is the most similar. They may be opposite in that red prefers freedom, while white preferres order. However the big thing they do have in common is that both are moral. It is big enough for them to be potential allies. Red has morality in emotions and empathy. White has morality in government and communalism. I recently figured out that green is pretty weird in terms of philosophy. At first it seems to be about nature and being down to earth. There is also traditionalism, which is fine. People were closer to earth in the olden days before Christianity and industrialism. Funny thing is that green is allied to white. White has a lot of trappings of civilization, with both government and religion. White also has lots of flying creatures. That is a really big difference. It is like how I have earth and air be opposites in my system. Sometimes green is portrayed as being into harmony. Maybe that is just a desperate attempt to fit two opposing colors together. Green and blue is an enemy pair. That makes sense. Blue has the technology and progression to oppose green. Maybe green should have white and blue as its enemies. That would make sense. The allies would be black and red. Red works just fine. Together green and red form a primal and concrete pair. They lack the sophistication of blue and white. Green and black are enemy pairs. It makes some sense with the difference of life and death respectivly. However the two actually fit well. It is just that the green-black pair focuses on the harsher and nastier aspects of nature. The main part is rot and decay. It also gets into hunting and disease. There is enough similarity to form an allied pair. I think the harsher aspects are more inherent in nature than MTG gives credit for. Maybe the color pie would make more sense if the order was blue, black, green, red and white. Note this is a circle, so white in turn would go with blue. If one droped black, they would get the system i have. I do depict my earth aspect in a harsher way that lacks harmony. It is more about materialism. There is some amorality, which makes it an ally of the intellectual fire aspect. So I have my ways to adjust philosophy. In anybody else is interested, I advise to do your research and come up with your own ideas. I think a good place to start is the Greek humor system. A lot of stuff is drawn from that, including my own system.

[@c.d.dailey8013]

Oh another thing. One shouldn't limit themselves to just TCGs. There are plenty of other games out there. I am a fan of Legend of Zelda and Catan. Those are a whole different thing. They would be worth checking out for ideas. I am a big fan of both TCGs and RPGs. I get a big creative spin by finding a way to combine the two. One game I am currently learning to play is Dungeons and Dragons. It is my first tabletop RPG. I am mainly drawn because I am a fan of fantasy and RPGs. The lore, adventures and classes seem so cool. Another thing that draws me is the prestige. Dungeons and Dragons and Magic the Gathering are the two main classics of fantasy games. They launched whole game genres. Both have plenty of other games following in their footsteps. This is worth the study, at least to see what all the fuss is about. I am barely getting the gist of Dungeons and Dragons. It is like World of Warcraft, but old fashioned. World of Warcraft is worth the study too. It is the most famous RPG as a computer game or video game. It has a whole host of its own games that follow in its footsteps. I see there is a tradeoff between tabletop and video game RPGs. Video games are better at being accessible for gameplay. They are better providing rich graphics. They are also easier to learn and play. The computer does so much stuff for the player. Tabletop games are better at being accessible for game development. They don't require a fancy computer to run. Making a game doesn't require any technical skills, such as coding. There is also a lot more freedom to change the game to suit the players. Maybe one isn't better than the other. It is just a matter of preference. I think of Dungeons and Dragons as a way to step up my game. It is more difficult than World of Warcraft, but there is also more creativity. I love how so much can change and vary. The content, rules and paraphernalia can all change. I am interested in being a dungeon master someday. Dungeon masters are the ones that get the creative control. So far my gameplay involves a lot of reading and writing while rolling fancy dice. I think there is stuff here that can apply to other games even card games. There are two cool details in the rules that I like. One is that attributes and other modifiers are added to dice rolls. Before I used multiplication to calculate attributes. However I like adding instead. It is easier, and it can make matches more even. Another thing I like is damage type. In Dungeons and Dragons, it is a minor thing. However I get excited, because it reminds me of the elements in Pokemon. I am not the only one that noticed. There are KZbin videos about how apply the rules of Dungeons and Dragons to the Pokemon world. it is interesting. So I would like to execute my idea of mixing elements with classes.

[@Gustavomazu]

I totally understand this feeling! I'm always up for a game that feels unique and I think TCG can definitely be explored further to give us more gems. I think Netrunner is one of them, but I understand how it feels more like a board game than anything. I also like the round/turn/attack token system of Legends of Runeterra, althought it is not that far from Magic otherwise and it is a digital game.

[@QKlilx]

My game isn't a TCG, but it IS a battling card game. What sets me game apart is you start with a draft for your team and support cards, then you battle via simultaneous selection. Support cards and the characters' effects resolve through a priority system that can be manipulated or taken advantage of. There are no resource mechanics, no life points, and your characters serve as your main actions... until they get KO'd. Some people have likened it to Pokemon VGC but as a card game.

[@revimfadli4666]

Wow what's its name? Sounds like something that could be marketable to players of Mission: Red Planet, Raptor, Star Realms, Evolution: Climate, and Race for the Galaxy

[@McCrispyBread]

I'm surprised there aren't many tcgs that take inspiration from the win condition of Unstable Unicorns.

[@codenamexelda]

It's like I once said, Originality is gone. And accepting this will make game design that much easier to do.

[@supermysterious66]

Originality is gone, just like how all unicorns are gone. Everything is always derived to a certain extent.

[@vladspellbinder]

Thank you for expanding on this, as it is something I've still been thinking about off and one since the previous video. Another thing I'd like to hear your thoughts on is designed for a physical gamer over designing for a digital game. I _think_ it was you that mentioned that the ease in which you can make and do things in Tabletop simulator has lead to some people overlying on placing things on cards, be it tokens of some sort of other cards, and that doesn't work well in a physical space so I'm curious as to what more you might have to say on something like that.

[@MirehManuh]

as someone collecting defunct japanese tcgs, crusade system (Gundam NEx-A) seems like a mtg based game but has 3 stat block (middle block is ranged attack for when they have group attacks and such) theres also Ranger Strike and Dragon Drive TCG (both of which im still trying to learn RangerStrike has a small community trying to keep it alive and have translated some of the old cards, and Dragon Drive TCG is basically unknown outside of japan and i have a starter deck with the rulebook intact so trying to find translator to help with that) Also thanks to your errata text vids ive been hunting down the jpn tcg sphere for games that didnt take off into english

[@Slick_Tails]

Great video! I also feel like a lot of players when approaching a new card game just automatically assume that it works the same as Magic. As a huge fan of Keyforge, I can't count the number of times I've come across people playing without reading the rules, assuming it all works like MTG and then being confused as to why nothing makes sense. "Why do most creatures have no toughness? They die so easily! What's the point in tapping your opponent's creatures if they can just untap at the start of the turn? What's even the point of creatures if you have no life total to fight into? Man, this game is so slow. Drawing one card a turn means I can't do anything after a few turns."

[@SketchingHands]

I just used that advice & it helped me fix an issue I had with my game.

[@Astro-Vision]

A game similar to the neopets game is the My little Pony game, which has a similar "lane" thing where you gain points until someone contests that lane. I really liked what little I played, it almost felt like a weird turn based card game version of an RTS where you have to build up a group to "take over" a resource area.

[@supermysterious66]

The My little pony TCG was a fine game, minus that the best strategy was to horde the (not mana) until you can play enough cards to win the contest in a single swoop.

[@MrVovoda]

What we did on the TCG I'm working on is hopefully widely different from what we've seen. We re-use a Duel Masters-like resource system combined with innovative mechanics like non-combat interaction. It's really unique and I can't wait to see it on your shelves ;)

[@jevonp]

The editing was super clean on this video, good shit man

[@pillowtalk7460]

Any ideas for videogame exclusive TCG’s? Card Fighters Clash comes to mind.

[@StarkMaximum]

Ohh, so this is the TCG version of "read another book" when someone compares something to Harry Potter _again!_ I would like to point out that "MTG-like" and "Duel Masters-like" are pretty wide nets, so part of the reason it's hard to make a truly unique system is because it's easy to accidentally back into one or the other even when you're trying to avoid it. People naturally want to compare things to other things, so they'll draw comparisons even if it's not terribly accurate just because it gives them a foothold.

[@evanbarkman5786]

I've been sort of working on a game that tries to capture some of what I loved about playing YGO with my friends back in the day... which was very unlike how the game plays now. And the game has kinda followed it's weird path as I tend to look up weird and interesting mechanics in other games. I'm probably using modified versions of mechanics I've seen in half a dozen games. It is basically set in a world where people can put creatures/spells/magic items into cards and then summon them to do battle (in addition to more mundane things) and this ability has lead to them having ritualized duels and competitions, which are sorta like card game tournaments mixed with medieval martial competitions. The main game is way to simulate their games in a modern card game (I was briefly considering making the cards Tarot sized because I imagined that's how big they would be in the story, but quickly decided that I shouldn't go against the standards for sleeving and other support materials). I'm also hoping to make it work as both a competitive PvP game and a coop PvE game with the same cards (basically I want players to be able to team up against big villains or similar things similar to Sentinels of the Multiverse, or go on epic quests like the Lord of the Rings LCG with the same decks they used to duel each other), but at the moment I'm not sure if I can make that work without making the game atrociously complicated to design. But I'm gonna try.

[@DefHalan]

I have been saying this since Hearthstone came out, and even before then I know it was a problem. I am so bored with the +1 resource per turn and all cards cost a resource to play idea. Even in Pokemon my favorite types of decks to build/play are Zero Energy decks

[@Yinyanyeow]

1) I would call you an Unga bunga player. 2) Would you desire a "burning" deck in a since?

[@DefHalan]

@@Yinyanyeow what are you talking about?

[@Yinyanyeow]

@@DefHalan Your deck battle style wants as little restraint as possible and would like to smash with as little to no power if possible. And was thinking you would want a deck requires you to use cards to burn instead of energy.

[@DefHalan]

@@Yinyanyeow zero energy decks actually normally have more to do to get their attacks off. While in the latest set we got a couple of interesting options, before that the best Zero Energy deck required playing a particular supporter card. Since those are only 1 per turn and only 4 in the deck, having to recover and search that card out required a lot of effort. Zero Energy decks normally have a lot more trouble to get functioning in Pokemon.

[@Yinyanyeow]

@@DefHalan (yea, reason why I think the zero energy deck in some games is a task. I was crafting a game that can allow you to pick if to go powerless or not with certain effects and I'll say it is possible but requires good placement and tricks.)

[@JHZech]

This so much. I'm creating a game that tosses out almost every concept modern TCGs use yet still has familiar mechanical templating, and it's been a blast. Great choice of BGM at the end with the Ace Attorney Chronicles track btw.

[@al_2331]

I'm trying to test my own game idea and and what I'm currently working with for the resource system is essentially Information, where you reveal cards in your hand equal to the Rank of the card you're trying to play. If the card you're trying to play wasn't previously revealed, it counts towards its own cost, so the main downside to playing a revealed card is it'll cost an extra card reveal. I'm not sure how good of an idea this is and it's balanced around the idea that there's a card type that can be played during your opponent's turn known as Counter Cards. So by revealing your hand to make plays you're also informing your opponent of what they have to look out for. Also I want to try Life Decking for the win condition, If you take damage you can select 1 Vanilla Creature from the milled cards and Summon it for no cost, also any Counter Cards milled from damage can be activated if conditions are met at that point in the turn. The Idea is so even if you revealed your hand there can still be something up your sleeve. Aesthetics are the main thing I'm struggling with because I love the High Fantasy style. But after watching this series, I'm worried about what would set it apart from Magic the Gathering in this department.

[@Iceykitsune]

The issue is that most games that stray too far from magic end up victims of the 2 year curse.

[@lucaskollet797]

I think people replay the magic resource system in diferent forms because it not only works, but creates a filing of growth in power and danger during the game. I have my own experimentation with action as resources, cards as resources, no cost, cosumable resources, etc. But in the end they have their problems and limitations, demanding a role new game to work properly, that could not be the game you want to play anymore.

[@jaivonmannie8395]

You should do a review on the Mega Bloks battle Strikers metal XS.

[@warpvector]

I have a friend who didn't know it was impossible to copyright gameplay mechanics. So for their card game they "couldn't" use life points or mana or anything like that and had to come up with an entirely original concept. It was creative but a bit messy. Goes to show it's okay to try different and wild risks.

[@J3Puffin]

A perfect addendum, full send.

[@grimjack9139]

I know where you got the alternating activations from and it's a good choice. I'm incorporating it into my card game since it can be multiplayer and alternating activations reduces dogpiling on weaker players to some extent. While I am using the Duel Masters card as resource, in order to mitigate bad battle rounds, the "monster" cards can be used as resource from the discard pile. So the losing player can get back up pretty quickly while the winning player of the battle round gets their "victory" points.

[@lendrigangames]

Aw, man. Now I need to go flesh out my own card game idea ( a single-creature game that, without revealing too much prematurely, is basically kaijus)! It already has a risk-reward system, a simple tracking system, and a balance between concealed actions and cheating prevention, but I still need to nail down the particulars for the Major Attributes.

[@hyperjukencardgameofficial]

I've talked about the concept of 'Genres in TCGs' before under a video called "Trading Card Game Genres - The Real Big Three" and personally I am very, very tired of Magic / DM clones. Most indie games manage to be one somehow and the only way I'd touch another is to make it myself or be paid. That said, if you want a game that isn't directly inspired by Duel Masters and Magic, Hyper Juken is set to release some time in October :D

[@thomasalvarenga2839]

I am surprised very little if any games these days use the turn count as a mechanic. It feels like easy design space to use for stuff like a resource mechanic. The only example of a card game that made turn count matter is Dino King where it was tied to the game's limitation system, where the value of the cards you played could not exceed the number of the turn. Okay some games do have a raising mechanic system, especially digital only card games, but using the turn count number instead could lead to some unique qualities, like "charging" effects that only work in turn counts that are multiples of a certain number like 2, 3 or 4. Or have card's strength gradually increase based on the turn count number, or even lose power on certain turn counts as a balancing mechanic. Another idea that I wonder why we haven't gotten before works more for DTCGs but its the concept of having 2 smaller decks of opposing attributes (like good or evil) and switch player's roles between them, have the turn player use deck A and then they switch to deck b on their opponent's turn. While very hard to do in a physical game a digital game can do the flipping required for you. It would be a good way to invoke story gameplay integration if a storyline involves 2 factions, and it be something flashy. But those are just my opinions of suggestions games could do to be more unique.

[@downsjmmyjones101]

And that's why Netrunner is so cool. It's almost nothing like Magic. Gwent is an interesting one that is kinda like Magic but has enough weird stuff going on to separate itself from Magic.

[@PetyrC90]

The FPS genre added stuff and reinterpreted its basis. But it didnt changed to a completely new thing.

[@rosewarrior706]

Im slowly working on a card game, where your life is your deck, and when you take damage the cards go into a "bound deck" where they can be cast at any time as usual but for an extra "bound" cost, and every card is a resource like in duel masters, i wanted to make a game where it swings back and forth, where dealing damage its self is a risk where it can keep you at the end of your seat even when winning, i hate snowbally games. The idea is there is no interaction from your opponent on your turn except for what is on board, meaning you always know what you have to deal with to at least some extent, its just up to you to play around it.

[@rosewarrior706]

Though to follow up with that i had been helping a friend do a music based card game where you have 4 "mana" being notes and the idea is you are trying to compose more points then your opponent sadly they dropped it

[@Kohdok]

That actually sounds kind of interesting. So you play cards by composing chords?

[@iloveyandex4862]

so wixoss's ener+lifecloth?

[@destructive_thoughts_]

I'm craving for a game that solves YGO main Issue which is uninteractive Board states and the abundance of Floodgates

[@DeitySkullKid]

Definitely a hard design space, trying to keep your design interesting enough to play, with as few pieces as possible (a deck and some dice), and also trying to innovate, keeping in mind how other systems wound up having trouble, (such as with life decking), it's a head scratcher to be sure

[@galdanith]

I'm working on a game that is basically food web building from Ecologies meets the Yu-Gi-Oh extra deck

[@GemBlenders]

Great video Kohdok!

[@Lizardguy3]

Should have included the chrono clash system in your rundown. I find that kind of risk-reward system and timing very interesting

[@ralphsunico116]

What are your thoughts on the Hawken Real-Time Card Game?

[@Yinyanyeow]

I called this out so much. *laughs it up.*

[@notme6331]

@kohdok could you elaborate on some of your ideas youre working on for your game?

[@Reluxthelegend]

Kohdok i would love to see you talk about Collective Card Game It is a digital card game where all cards are designed by the players and democratically decided which ones get in or not, and also I think it is a bit interesting mechanically because players don't alternate turns but take turns simultaneously. This might not be up your alley due to being a digital card game but I would love to hear your thoughts on it, the game has been going for about 4 years now.

[@fortidogi8620]

5Ds music!

[@empireyouth5791]

A bit of a sidenote I think one of the many reasons so many people think to use magic resource system aside from it being easy, is that people look to clickbait videos saying Yugioh is a bad game for not having a resource system (ignoring all good aspects of the game , turning it into just a slander fest) and people get scared to be experimental like Yu-Gi-Oh did and just make a magic cloud. As much as I can agree with many of the points against Yu-Gi-Oh I feel it’s inadvertently just made people want to make games about slowly building up a resource , some of my favorite card games I play are swinging like Yu-Gi-Oh, Buddy fight, Digimon, and they don’t have the same slow ramp up like magic alike have, plants versus zombies heroes (digital card game) I play has the slow ramp up with resources, but it ands on the lane mechanic making the experience actually feel different (and on the sidenote they actually do the unmixable attributes nearly perfectly affectively forcing you to only choose two attribute, and you might say “ just choose the best two” if you do they actually don’t synergize with each other very well. They kind of fuck it up by having a split in general with good or evil “ Plants are zombies” but the game works well enough to where I can still have fun)

[@Iceykitsune]

2 people playing solitaire at each other, not really interacting is a good game?

[@alexandrapharmic6635]

This makes me wonder why we don't see more games taking inspiration from Pokémon. I personally dislike its resource system because losing several turns' worth of Energy when something gets KO'd feels pretty bad, but I don't see this sentiment a lot. Maybe the Pokémon TCG is not considered (even in an "it shows that it's okay to be different from Magic" way) because many people see it as a collector thing first and a game second?

[@revimfadli4666]

"unmixable attributes but choose 2 sets" honestly sounds like a great idea to combine the creativity and possibilities of mixable attributes, with whatever benefits that unmixable attributes are supposed to give

[@empireyouth5791]

@@Iceykitsune Once again you did it you focus on the negative aspects ignoring any good aspects, this is the equivalent of saying “ Magic is a bad game you Brick because you have to play mana in your deck and you lose. Having a resource system sucks” or saying “ Dual master is a bad game, you get punished for attacking because of RNG , Bad experience” yes Yu-Gi-Oh house it’s problems but if the game is just Solitaire it would not have lived for so long

[@empireyouth5791]

@@alexandrapharmic6635 i’ll be honest with you even though Kohdok says digimon it’s more of a duel masters alike, I find it plays more like a Pokémon Alike , investing into big monsters getting as much value out of them before they are ultimately destroyed or removed. Heck the breeding area shares a lot in common with pokemon‘s benched area

[@TomSmith-ll2lp]

Im officially requesting a video on the My Little Pony CCG

[@byetodd]

I have a new well… wish you would have looked at it.

[@ekolimitsLIVE]

Dude. You need to test my card game. It will blow you away 🤪

[@DeconvertedMan]

Magi nation's engery system is something worth trying again. What about startrek ? remember star trek?! :D

[@PoorProPlayer]

I think another two reasons magic and DM are copied so much is because, the game creators are probably already fans of magic/dm so they naturally draw from their life experience with those games. The second reason is probably because magic and dm are well designed games so the Creators might think well if it ain't broke, why fix it and just replicate what already works.

[@trickyplays240]

Are you able to get any info on the new Battle Spirit Saga ?

[@федяконовальцев]

By that logic every tcg is a magic alike

[@fearlessnonprofit4646]

Thanks!

[@iannations2543]

You tell us to Drink from another Well, but given the Two Year Curse, it almost feels like they're all laced. That said, I'm currently working on a Double Sided Trading Card game which I don't think any other TCG tried before.

[@supremacyecg6815]

5:37 BTW are you gonna make video about One Piece TCG?

[@cohenmarioman]

Hey is that the Leo and Luna (Rua and Ruka) the,e I hear little less than halfway through in the background lol?

[@fennecfoxfanatic]

Can somebody explain where the My Little Pony ccg lands in? I don't think its a Magic-alike but it does have color coded cards?

[@supermysterious66]

if have a "color wheel" makes one an MTG, that's retarded. The color wheel is much better than yugioh's "new archetype that doesn't play at all with any past archetype" nonsense. Borrowing good elements is good game design.

[@fennecfoxfanatic]

@@supermysterious66 ?

[@Spark-Gold]

I'm surprised Pokemon tcg is missing from your Venn Diagram as I think that's a great example of a Magic / Duel Masters bleed over

[@Spark-Gold]

so I wrote this comment before continuing in the video lol. I'll leave my comment up as an example of what not to do

[@whitenightandtheguildofidi208]

So, I've been designing a game that uses a chess like board and card's instead of miniatures or anything in that nature. In your opinion what should I market it as a CCG/TCG or something else? All you need is the board, custom deck, and possibly dice. Still in very early stages, but curious on your opinion?

[@firekram]

Watch the video on Sin 6 and make sure you're game has a plan to overcome the difficulties found in the video

[@prairietan]

Cardfight vanguard is my favorite tcg of the decade. Top 3 1. Cardfight vanguard 2. Digimon 3. Flesh and blood

[@D4vSG]

So... Hipotetically speaking let's say I have spent the last couple of weeks thinking about a game where you use I life deck instead of life points or just taking X amount of cards from the top of the deck to use as shields, and no resource system because I find them too slow must of the time, does it qualify as a duel master clone? Just asking for a friend

[@jonathanmartens6706]

hey kohdok, me and a friend are currently in the process of making a tcg. our ideas have changed what from what they initially were. but our most liked version (the current version were expanding on) takes alot of our favorite elements from other tcgs. is it inherently bad to have too have this sort of design? we struggled for a while till we looked at other tcgs and what they did and the things we really liked about them. our current play testing showed us that some of our rules and mechanics were successful but we're a little worried about taking too much from different games and losing our bigger picture. is there a limit to how many wells you should drink from? some of our stuff is original but all of our ideas are thanks to other tcgs. thanks in advance for any opinion you can give

[@GunbladeKnight]

I find it a bit ironic that you are complaining about Magic and Magic-likes by comparing it to Doom and Doom clones, when Doom itself was a clone of their earlier work, Wolfenstein 3D.

[@harlanlittlejohn8989]

2:30 I hear this song in almost everything, what is it?

[@Kohdok]

"The Only Thing They Fear is You", Doom Eternal.

[@harlanlittlejohn8989]

@@Kohdok wow thanks, your the man …. Hey wait a minute.

[@maidenless_tarnished]

So what is that tcg with the card Palms de Acero and is there an english version?

[@Kohdok]

Mitos Y Leyendas. And no, not really.

[@RarecuisineGaming]

So you're saying we should copy Pokemon. Gotcha. Just kidding of course. It takes a lot of effort and creativity to get around the structure of previous games and have your game play smoothly and feel fun. All the better when it does come to fruition though.

[@seventfour9247]

A KODHOK GAME :D gimmi gimmi

[@seventfour9247]

messed your name up in excitement. im sorry!

[@NpalrGamesNsuch]

Makes me glad that my game isn't like mtg (Powerline Ultra)

[@yurisei6732]

I don't have a problem with magic-alikes. Magic is extremely well-designed, mechanically, and it covers broad enough ground that it's often hard *not* to make a clone of it. MTG is also ripe clone space. I've often found myself thinking "I wish there was a game that was basically this, but with X or Y difference", which is probably why MTG has about as many alternate formats as it has players. In comparison, Yugioh has excellent thematic design, which gives it less clonable space than MTG (you don't need a new game to do Yugioh but with X aesthetic difference, Yugioh is already perfectly happy to give you that star-wars-come-wizard-of-oz archetype you wanted), and absolutely terrible mechanical design. Yugioh is held together by decades of nostalgia and fan good-will. No game will ever be able to drink from the Yugioh well and survive. Pokemon meanwhile has pretty abysmal game design - there's not a lot worth copying there - and are notorious for suing anyone who even suggests copying something Pokemon did.

[@MrSilentProtagonist]

True, YGO has a lot of the traits that should kill it but it survives purely via brand power.

[@andrewdestefano4143]

🤔

[@prairietan]

Not enough coop games or pve games

[@4th-Rate-Duelist]

Card Anime & Manga! Come On

[@hdhgjhjdvj]

Try gwent

[@drearydoll6305]

Is there even a game that managed to copy yugioh?

[@MrSilentProtagonist]

I really can't look at Yugioh as a good template for any TCG.

[@dippyknucklesdynonoodle2614]

Your games include fantasy elements and maybe some dice

[@THMCTerracraft2]

*long inhale* hollow knight

[@hulkbastian9912]

I don't even know how to play magic and I think I'm making a kinda magic alike

[@prairietan]

Cardfight vanguard is the best cardgame

[@whatshendrix]

The best Magic-like is MtG. I pity anyone making a MtG clone, because you're always going to be 20 years behind MtG, but even if you weren't, it's still a very mediocre core that has started to show its age a long time ago.