The ULTIMATE Edge Retention TEST / S30v vs 8cr13mov This WILL be surprising.

Edge retention testing between 8cr13mov spyderco tenacious and s30v spyderco sage 1.
This is the final word on these two knives..I believe. I understand theres a lot of edge retention testers here on youtube who seem to get semi consistent results with their edge retention cutting rope. And I'm don't want to take anything away from that with this test or its conclusion.
However, with that being said, there are a lot of uncontrolled factors involved with edge retention testing. Those factors include: sharpening consistency, test medium consistency, pressure during cutting, motion during cutting, cutting surface consistency, test medium consistency, knife steel consistency, human error, etc...All of these things have sure variables as well. Most of these can't be eliminated and thus problems can be found with any test done by a human.
So are my results conclusive in that I seem to be having consistent results between these two knives? No, I don't believe so. This is one, maybe two, data points (if you count the last test video). Two data points might as well be meaning less even if the results are semi consistent. In order to get an accurate definitive conclusion you would have to do multiple tests (at least 10) in order to get an average for each knife.
Why would you need an average? Because theres not a definitive point in which each knife becomes dull. It comes down to human interpretation of what is dull. Even on edge retention tests like shaving theres a gray area, where the knife will semi shave, and semi won't. That area may be 37 cuts, or it may be 39 cuts, or it may be 33 cuts. So at some point the human doing the testing has to make that call. Even a variation of plus or minus one cut can be a large percentage point over time.
Is it possible that the sage 1 in s30v had better edge retention in this video? Maybe, but that still leaves another question un answered. How much better is s30v over this particular tenacious in 8cr13mov? The answer to this is still unknown, and may never be known. As heat treating plays a bigger role in edge retention then the type of steel. Knife manufactures tend to leave their cheaper steels very soft. Perhaps, to keep knife blades from snapping, due to the cheaper knives often being used as prying tools. What knife would you rather pry open a paint can with, a $20 knife, or a $220 knife? Hence the need to keep those cheaper steels softer. Spyderco advertises that their tenacious has a Rockwell hardness range of 57-58. 8cr13mov can certainly be left harder into the low 60s. Which would certainly increase edge retention beyond that of the current standard for 8cr13mov. Maybe even surpassing s30v that has been left softer. This is just a theory as no testing has been done of this front.
There are some concerns about the particular sharpening stones used, and that s30v would perform better with diamond stone sharpening (due to possible carbide tear out). This may be true or may not be true. Again it all comes back to variables. One of those being, how to measure starting sharpness. Are both knives starting from the same exact sharpness? Theres no way of knowing. So maybe it just seems that diamonds have a better result because they make s30v sharper. This exact argument can be said for 8cr13mov as well. How do we know we are sharpening 8cr13mov to its fullest potential? If one knife or steel needs diamonds in order to get the most out of it, then maybe another knife needs to be sharpened to 8000 or 15000 or 30000 grit in order to see that same potential. Can you actually sharpen two different steels exactly the same, to the exact same apex sharpness? Again, as far as I know, this is not possible to determine unless under laboratory conditions. And even then how well each edge performed would likely depend on the testing medium.
So as you can see theres a lot more to this edge retention stuff then may meet the eye. If a knife performs well, then it performs well. And if a knife performs badly then it performs badly. Any number of factors can be attributed to knife edge retention performance.
Theres more but theres not enough space in the description..who knew there was a character limit?😀
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[@MrBigTexFyre]

Amen brother. Your video is pure blasphemy to the steel snobs out there. I preach all the time that 8Cr13MoV is a lot better than what it is given credit. Knife guys have gotten so hung up on the exotics that unless it’s the latest, greatest, steel a knife must be junk. The truth is that most guys very seldom use their knives for tasks beyond cutting paper, string, opening envelopes, cutting cardboard boxes, and sometimes cutting mild food like apples. Sure, there are guys out there that use their knives for very hard tasks, BUT those guys will quickly tell you that a steel that can’t be easily sharpened isn’t very useful in the field. Thank you for your video. A big THUMBS UP! 👍🏼

[@SuperBobbis]

Like everyone I started out being a snob, but after a while I realised the only things important to me were sharpenability and corrosion resistance. If both of those are fine for you, any steel works, some just last longer.

[@BOOSTEDLASER]

I am a proud steel snob ! I do think HTs vary a bunch between batches

[@snackyxchan]

S30v isn't that high end but I get it

[@BOOSTEDLASER]

@@snackyxchan better than AUS8 or 14c28n =P

[@veganpotterthevegan]

Tons of people that do a lot of cutting just get new blades from their company and don't actually care at all🤣

[@Spectt84]

To me, this is definitive (actually, to me the last test was enough for me to draw a conclusion. This video is just bonus re-assurance). You should not have to go to such lengths to prove the difference between a steel that costs more than double the price of another. The difference should be very apparent. In my experience, the blade steel of a knife is becoming less and less important when buying a knife. If you focus more on build quality, design, and edge geometry you will end up with a better knife overall. This testing was absolutely awesome, you could not have done a better job. Anyone who picks this apart is just "splitting hairs". Great job!

[@Alex.P_10]

Yep, steel type is really low on the factors of a blades ability to cut and stay sharp. The most important, to me at least, are geometry in the first place and heat treating second.

[@TheGamerGuy1981]

@Jacob Dawson Pretentious hipster has entered the chat. P. S S30V isn't a shitty knife steel either..

[@76ajc]

Agreed man. My OCD brought the Saintsations with it to cheer this man on. My first Spyderco was a tenacious that I got about eight months ago and it's surprised the hell outta me with build quality, fit and finish, as well as performance; but just the other week I picked up a Native 5 with the S30V, so I'll be doing my own little mini test this weekend lol. COVID should be renamed CO-VIDEO for all the projects I'm getting into.

[@Danielson1818]

Exactly correct. There is no point of spending dumb amounts of money if the difference in steel isn't readily noticeable. I don't count myself as a "knife snob", but I definitely am an enthusiast. I believe we should take pride in our ability to sharpen and maintain our blades. Obviously, I've seen differences in steels, but some of this stuff is blown out of proportion when anyone with a little skill can keep a decent blade going, instead of placing their faith in expensive miracle steel.

[@profd65]

"This testing was absolutely awesome"="Thanks for making the bullshit knives I buy seem better than they actually are"

[@GalaxysGreatestDad]

Moral of the story: Buy the knife you like, steel be damned.

[@royrogers3624]

Lyndon Durgan by that logic a mild steel blade is just as good of a choice as these 2 How about you see much change in similar quality steels just make sure your choice of blade is made of a quality steel

[@davidk123]

I think that for example 420hc is in no way comparable to cpm3v. However the heat treat matter A LOT

[@DangerDad29]

@@davidk123 how much iron is each steel? How does it compare? What are the actual differences And how does that stack up in real world use?

[@dermotmcgreevy5220]

​@@davidk123 Lol didnt expect to see you here

[@dermotmcgreevy5220]

@@DangerDad29 3v will hold an edge much longer than 420hc but like david said the heat treatment matters alot 3v is also tougher than 420hc

[@quaxenleaf]

Through your sharpening videos and tests like this you’ve provided a much needed (and appreciated) service to the knife community. On top of that your videos are entertaining as hell.

[@DanGoodShotHD]

Wow. I can't believe, not the money, but the time you spent to do this. Certainly not in vain as it was time much appreciated by us, your adoring fans! Seriously great video. Keep up the good work. Honestly, imho, it all comes down to marketing. For most regular folk, Mild steel vs 1095 yeah, you'll see a difference. But "super" steel vs regular stainless steel... not so much(if at all.)

[@johnharris7353]

Bet he doesn't have any fur left on his arms at all!

You cant do more test because you have to wait for you furr to grow back :D

[@r1w3d]

This was a good test. If anything you are showing people that it's the law of diminishing return in the sense that spending four or more times the money isn't going to translate into a knife that will hold an edge under real use for years. Great video Alex, I always enjoy them man. 👍

[@BornIn1500]

Brandon Cornett the curve of diminishing returns. Not a law. Sorry but it makes a difference.

[@r1w3d]

BornIn1500 Sorry kid read up on your facts there is absolutely a law of diminishing return. I've known it for a very long time and I'm sure you could Google to look it up if your really need to debate it👍

[@BornIn1500]

Brandon Cornett Wrong. There is no absolute law that mandates a diminishing return. There is a law of gravity because it must happen. Diminishing returns aren't an absolute at all.... kid

[@r1w3d]

BornIn1500 OK haha I'm sorry but I'm not going to argue with someone that assumes or claims they know of which they don't. When I got an engineering degree I learned that there are people you just cannot argue with because those people will stand to the death by what they speak and even with contrary evidence they will not concede. You have a good one buddy 👍

[@chrisbleurgh7425]

I wonder if that last reply was intentionally ironic, but it certainly sounded like it.

[@sraike]

Great video. I've been using a Spyderco Persistence 8Cr13MoV to cut Amsteel Blue by Samson Rope every day for about 8 years now. This rope really dulls an edge on lesser knives or scissors but the Persistence has held up well with only bi-weekly tune ups with a ceramic.

[@ihateeverything3972]

Keep getting ads for manscaped, but how do you think I test if my knives are sharp?

[@kevin3837]

I came to a similar conclusion when I tested a buck 112 in 420hc vs a Spyderco Delica in vg10 cutting cardboard. They cut so much I honestly didn't want to cut anymore and were still sharp. The 420 surprisingly held up a little better (probably due to the hollow grind) but the big difference is the $50 price difference between the two.

[@awesomereviews1561]

Heat treatment is the key of all steel. Use 440C with a good heat treatment and it will performs really well

[@grogdocr]

I'd be more interested in seeing a comparison between different company's heat treatment. I've owned a few Chinese made Kershaws with 8Crblahblah steel that I was sharpening constantly. Meanwhile my made in China Spydercos/Byrds (same steel) hold up a thousand times better.

[@hansblitz7770]

Buck's treatment is pretty awesome. Just wish they used a good assisted operation and made them ambi carry.

[@donnymac575]

Thanks for confirming what I had suspected all along; that the average user won't be able to tell the difference between low-end and high-end blade steel. Now I won't feel so bad buying less expensive knives.

[@OUTDOORS55]

I has a lot more to do with heat treatment than steel type. 🙂

[@PaulK390S90V]

On Cedric and ada channel he does a single swipe to test on the paper and if there is any hangup at all considers the test done. That's why his numbers are much different. Its crazy how changing just one variable has a huge outcome

[@kaizen5023]

That's what I noticed as well about the way Pete does the paper cuts on Cedric & Ada channel. So, his bar for "Failed to cut paper" is much lower than we're seeing here.

[@PM-wt3ye]

@@kaizen5023But this doesnt clarify why there is almost no difference when there should be a HUGE one. Just the way a paper cut test is perfomed doesnt change that much, in real life use you would not recognize the slightest difference at all 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@CliffStamp]

As a point about terminology which is kind of important : -variables are not things you want to eliminate, they are things you design into your experiment There is the independent variable, that is what you control or pick (in this case it is the steel type), then there is the dependent variable that you are measuring which is so called because it depends (changes in response to) the independent variable. (it is possible to have multiple dependent and independent variables, I have done research where there are up to 20+, but in general unless you have a reason to, you just design with one of each) -variances are things which change and you wish they did not, you don't design them into your experiment, life does In this case they are things like : -the level of abrasion per cut in the hemp due to the material -speed, force and handle of the cuts -humidity and temperature in the shop -angle/speed/control in cutting the paper This is a long list, it is basically everything you think which could cause your measurement to change. What you want to do is try to minimize these, BUT, taking care not to make your work so artificial you end up not even measuring what you wanted to. For example if you controlled everything precisely with no random variances, well you likely would end up with something which measured abrasion resistance but that likely isn't what you would want (plus you can just look it up, or predict it from empirical models in the literature). And there is even something worse, there is a whole list of factors which cause variances (also called sources of error, but that often confuses people because they think it means you are doing something wrong) because you are using judgment : -how to tell when the knife stops cutting paper cleanly/shaves -how to handle a possible outlier -the need to do yet another run because the results "don't make sense" -rejection of the data, looking for an explanation to find some preconceived notion No one thinks they do this because everyone thinks they are awesome as sciencing - except actual scientists who know they are really horrible at it, which is why you have to use blinding protocols to prevent it. Anyway, like anything else, there isn't an end to what you can know from cutting trials, it just depends on how much work you are willing to put into it, based on what you want to get out of it.

[@levkvarner9865]

He just did how he wanted. At home you can make any test with approximate results. The result is that you have a conception.

[@SailfishSoundSystem]

The Master returns!

[@OttoVonChriek]

@@SailfishSoundSystem no

[@Dirkietje8]

Great breakdown of the scientific process, as we always got told at uni 'measuring once or even twice doesn't really tell you anything'. As much as I'd hate to admit my old Statistics teacher was right but actual science is in statistics and changing all the variables according to a DoE/Box-Bencken model to once and for all determine which variable has how much of an impact. But then again, I just sharpen my blades how I like them (more acute than factory edge, usually slight secondary convex, scandi's never stay true scandi's, everything on whetstones and leather strop to a high polish) and they cut wood fine without ever having to worry about big rolls. I like nerding over the steels without caring that much about my own edges because they all function exactly as I'd like them to do.

[@matchesburn]

@@OttoVonChriek Cliff Stamp has forgotten more about knife steels, edge geometry and sharpening than you could probably learn in multiple life times. Go to any place with enthusiasts that actually know anything, like BladeForums, and start asking about Cliff Stamp. You'll see he's held in high regard in the knife community. And for good reason.

[@daveglarner2138]

This was great, dude. Moral of the story here is that even if you have all of these variables to consider, at some point there should STILL be some sort of tangible, blistering difference to show off.......and there's just not. Maybe I still won't run out and buy every 8cr13mov knife I can find, but I'll certainly respect the ones I have. I really enjoyed this.

[@K3Flyguy]

Funny thing is flint, chert, obsidian, bone and even wood can be sharpened to insane sharpness and re edged almost instantly. I have knapped glass and natural materials to (in some cases) nearly atomic edge thicknesses. All of them hold up long enough to do the job. Super steels are fun, interesting to use and work with but most have only a niche market. A good fitting, easy to sharpen, properly built knife should be a very easy tool to build, and in fact they are. Great video, thanks for sharing!

[@thomasd728]

you did your best. Too many variables...You drive yourself nutty Dude. I take my hat off to you.

[@frenchieedc7602]

watch out on the way that you are cutting the paper ! At 7:30 you are cutting again the grain of the paper, so at a certain point of sharpness a knife is gonna have more difficulties to cut the paper again the grain (that's why you have so many hang ups). But if you cut with the grain with that same edge, it's gonna be more simple for the knife to cut the paper (so almost no hang ups) !

[@BornIn1500]

Frenchie EDC cardboard can have a "grain" but I've never seen regular white printing paper have a grain.

[@johnyoung5227]

As a printer I can assure you paper does have a grain, when wetted it will expand about 5 times more across the grain than with the grain.

[@OUTDOORS55]

This was just a sample that I showed. I cut probably 100 sheets of paper during this test. Obviously I can't show them all😀

[@frenchieedc7602]

It was just an "important" remark for me. ;) Btw i really like your videos, keep it up the great job !!!

[@Wolf_K]

Dapdoi Ardon Simple, the way that is harder to push cut is against the grain. Take a single piece of newsprint and pushcut it, turn the paper 90° and do so again, you will notice a huge difference. . Pushcutting newsprint at a true 90° perpendicular angle is harder than slicing or pushcutting with the grain. Mess around with it and you will see. If you can pushcut newsprint against the grain, holding only one side of the paper around half an inch from point of cut, then your knife is indeed very sharp. However, pushcut sharpness is quite different to slicing sharpness. If you can do the same, against the grain, on lightweight Rizla (Greenpack) cigarette paper it is sharper than the best razor blade. Most will never be able to achieve this level of sharpness, regardless of sharpening method as it takes patience and skill. It’s a worthy goal to achieve though so good luck. ;)

[@ShootingUtah]

It's crazy because I've noticed pretty big differences between steels like s35vn and say 8cr13mov and zdp-189 and CPM-154CM. These were across different brands, like Spyderco, Kershaw, and Benchmade. Like you said it's all about the heat treat.

[@danwerkman]

I really appreciate the time and effort you put into the edge retention videos. Real world is a special place.... not often visited by the comment section. Great vids and very useful information . Thx

[@mildyproductive9726]

8Cr13 is the perfect, generic, baseline, stainless knife steel. 13% chromium is the proven amount to improve corrosion resistance before diminishing returns kick in. 0.8% is the maximum amount of carbon you can have without forming large, chunky (and largely detrimental to 99% of things a knife is used for) chromium carbides. There are tons of knife steels that are essentially the same stuff as 8Cr13. 440A, AUS8, AEB-L, and many other stainless steels are very similar to 8Cr13. Aside from this, the only really important indicator of "quality" in a steel is having low sulphur content. The lower, the better. Any sulfur in the steel is an impurity. Phosphorus is added to "neutralize" and minimize the negative effect of sulphur. The other stuff is mostly incidental. Note, the only thing that makes any of these steels better than 1080 or 1095 is the stain resistance. In essentially every other measure of a knife that matters, 1080 is just as good but with better toughness. 8Cr13 is essentially the stainless version of 1080. The "80" in 1080 refers to 0.8% carbon. 1095 has 0.95% carbon. Any exotic knife steel deviating from this 0.8% and 13% is mostly for bragging rights. Some of these alloys have special properties which make them very useful... for things other than knives. It's cool that people have come up with other ways to make a good knife steel, but "better" will need to be defined very narrowly to apply. It would be more accurate to say that these exotic steels are more exclusive. This is enough to justify the cost. Same way some baseball cards cost more than others. Sypderco makes limited runs of their knives, and the exotic steels are more rare in number. The hardcore dudes want to have 'em. The 4x higher cost is not because they are even twice as good. It's because they are more expensive to make. It costs more to have more SKU's/models. It costs more to manufacturer, stock, sell, support more products. It also costs more to grind more abrasion-resistant steels, as is the case for some of these exotic steels. When you buy this top end product, you are paying the cost of the manufacturer to maintain multiple products, where in old USSR, you might have just "knife." Take it or leave it.

[@Lukasrb76]

I agree💪

[@moealfaleh5606]

I own plenty of knives of all steel ranges. The only real difference I can tell is microchipping or rolling of the edge occurs sooner in cheaper steels. However, sharpening those steels back to 100% is super quick. Sharpening S30V and higher takes a good amount of time. Overall, for a guy like me who mainly uses knives for food, opening boxes, and cutting up cardboard. The steel does not matter as long as it is sharpened properly.

[@adamtimmins3035]

Maybe we need to try s30v from another brand and see how it compares to spyderco.

[@william1973ist]

That would really be the best I think. I really think if you have your sharpening tools and skill set dialed in, you can get these kinds of results from steels that treated well by the same manufacture if they are consistent in heat treating.

[@charliemartin4392]

Bucks s30v bos

[@georgemorley1029]

aCID sPAZ Yeah you’ve got to test the test before you can test, otherwise the testing will be testing. I’ll attest to that.

[@CB-zx3jn]

This is another great test video. Good job! I'd like to make one comment that I've never seen addressed (I likely just missed it elsewhere). Speaking of variables, I've noticed that when doing paper-cutting tests, it's important to find out which direction the "grain" of the paper is going on that particular piece of paper, and only use that side of the paper for your cutting test). So, if your knife cuts the paper easily when using the "side" of the paper sheet, then you try to use the "top or bottom" of the sheet, and your knife hangs-up, then you know that you should only cut the paper using the side of the sheet, for consistent results. I am always tempted to use another "clean" edge of the paper, whether it be the side, or the top/bottom, while testing my blades, and I sometimes would get frustrated that when using the side of the paper, the blade would cut like a laser thru butter, but when changing to another clean side of the paper (the top or bottom), suddenly the blade would not perform so well. So basically, for consistency purposes, when using paper sheets for testing, just stick to either the sides, or the top/bottom of your paper sheets once you have found out which direction the paper grain "works" for the blade. That should give you a better idea how sharp the blade really is. l know this sounds very simplistic, but I'm primarily making this mention for folks who have never used the paper technique for testing their blades. Anyway, keep up the good work and we'll be looking forward to more reviews!👍

[@therealjoshtodd]

I really appreciate both your dedication to proper testing as well as your awareness and acknowledgement of variables. the science is strong in you

[@pacificbushcraftandfirecra6358]

Interesting testing and results... Thanks for sharing Alex! Enjoyed.

[@jonduncansakurawallknifegarden]

This is the first test that I’ve seen online that actually has the smarts to take into account the cutting board in the back ... it’s hard to take any of these tests seriously when there are flagrant variables punching me in the mouth, the entire time I try to pretend enough to take them seriously - I really can’t say that there’s anything in your testing that I could try to find as a variable, or something that I haven’t thought of. I do appreciate Cedric and ada and all the steel tests that he does but there are a few variables in his work and he embraces that. This is as close to science as we can get with your tests. A sharpness tester would be the onnnnly thing that might give us a better result , being that the angle of the paper could be a variable possibly.

[@marshallvanwagneriii1495]

Great video, I had faith in your first edge retention test. Every day use, as far as I'm concerned, is the best test there is. Keep on keeping on!!!

[@theone031]

I believe it's more in the company and how they heat treat. You would have seen major differences if you used CRKTs 8cr vrs Spyderco s90v. Some companies just have better steals.

[@Walid_Kharseh]

Do you mean that crkts 8cr knifes are not good steel compared to the spyderco s90v or in the opposite?

[@patrickderp1044]

@@Walid_Kharseh i just sharpened a ckrt 8cr, and its way sturdier than the gerber and various kitchen knives i compared it to

[@godforever27]

Kershaw and spyderco have the best 8cr13mov blades

[@yager4092]

You need to use a pressure plate cause the duller knife will take more pressure to cut and you would be able to tell

[@mightyredstallion]

Bingo.

[@chrluc]

Great video! I think you did a really great job in trying to do all you can to eliminate all the possible variances while still recognizing those that still exist. It genuinely seemed like an honest video.

[@paddyspotatopeelers2154]

I love watching people spitting feathers.up and down the world feathers are floating in the air.great completely logical test.thank you.atb paddy.👍☺🍀

[@nickmacaluso6585]

I like your test. It’s unique because it shows how much to dull a knife to a working edge. You most certainly would see a difference if you took the testing further and used a more wear resistant blade like Xhp or zdp, probably double or triple the edge retention. But I never let a knife go past shaving sharp, not many truly obsessed fanatics do. So in a way your tests are more relevant and to my kind of use.

[@dannydrevo]

I liked these videos. They really reveal a lot. Like if you pay double for the steel, you certainly aren't going to get double the edge retention (or even a considerably noticeable difference). It will certainly make me a better consumer.

[@USAUSAM82]

Your test is a great one! Its reasonable and practical. Thanks to you, ive determined that the expensive stuff is not worth the price and the difference is just splitting hairs. 🤣

[@mondavou9408]

Nice test and good communication though out -thank you. I wished you had been able to use a sharpness scale to quantify results but still a solid test. Given I have a Benchmade 940 S30V and a SpiderCo Tenacious 8Cr13MoV. I would say carry what is comfortable. I personally prefer everything about the Benchmade but when I think about the fact I can get three Tenacious for one 940 - it doesn't make any sense its not three times better.

[@King88_8]

Blade gurus (ie those who own a keyboard, subscribe to a forum and own a knife ) will be spitting venom/losing their minds over this... On point real world test 👍🏼

[@svn5994]

Except Cedric & Ada along with plenty of other tests prove this wrong.

[@King88_8]

@@svn5994 Pete cuts the board about as much as he cut rope but as the poster says. 1 test cant be compared to another. We knock down a shipping container of boxes. Most of us use 8cr or 14c28 blades. Why? Because we can strop it right there on the side of the container and keep going. Probably cut more in that 1 day than most cut into their lives. D2 has become more popular for us now

[@mail2ted]

Great stuff, the only thing I can conclude is an excellent heat treat on the 8cr by Spyderco. I wouldn't be surprised if the Spyderco 8cr out performed most others.

[@OUTDOORS55]

I wouldn't either. 😀

[@AlergicToSnow]

With that many repetitions, on average, all these variables work out to be pretty much the same for each knife. I think you have a reasonable conclusion. There isn’t enough practical difference to justify a huge difference in price.

[@shavefan12]

Amazing test, thanks for all the work you put into this. As for ease of resharpening, how do they compare?

[@OUTDOORS55]

I stropped them both back to hair whittling in a couple seconds on green compound. So hot much difference there😀

[@j1166240]

Thank you for doing this video! I actually carry a Victorinox #1 EDC and have Victorinox knives in my kitchen knives. Some people consider this steel very low grade. I think being able to resharpen easily is more important than edge retention for what I do, and it never rusts. When professional butchers, who use a knife daily for work, recommend and use Victorinox that tells me something. I find the best solution is use whatever steel works for you in your personal needs. Same for golf clubs, there has been some advances in technology, but for the most part it comes down to what works for you and what you can afford.

[@patrickderp1044]

victorinox has salespeople who go to all the butchers and plug their product

[@OldPackMule]

Wow, you put so much work into this. Glad you dispels some of the myths. So many people buy high end knives and they end up never needing the extra capabilities. They end up being collector pieces. I’ve never tried Spyderco’s 8cr13mov but didn’t like Kershaw’s version. A good S30V or (my favorite) S35VN is all I’ll ever need in a pocket knife. Thanks. PS, would love to see you produce that light backpacking fixes blade.

[@jusme8060]

Yup, no matter what knife I bring to work, they all dull in 10 minutes tops cutting pad and carpet. I always tell the testers to use carpet padding, the test will take 5 minutes vs hours. I guess that might hurt the viewer pleasure though....

[@rpman4787]

One variable you didn't mention was the consistency of the force pressed onto the wood. Going through rope 1000 times is one thing. But how can you tell how much pressure you're putting into the block? I promise I'm not being critical, you've done way more testing than I ever will. Just offering my observation. Great work!

[@MasterofAardvarks]

heres the thing with that. The force he is exerting is within a threshold; contained within the confines of realistic human strength, the force needed to press through the rope, and the average consistent motion he is attempting to obtain within his tests. Overall, his hundreds of cuts will average out to an approximately equal amount of force.

[@matthewblunderbuss4545]

I love both guns and knives but shooting different calibers into gel is certainly less mathematically and physically intense than doing a test like this much respect for this research.

[@HalfInsaneOutdoorGuy]

Edge geometry is the most important factor here. A close 2nd is heat treatment, 3rd is good quality steel. If you try to take a 7cr17mov bear grylls cheap Chinese made knife, and compare it to an odenwolf, or mora with identical steel, the chinesium will lose out every single time by a very large margin.

[@scottecooke]

at 6:20 - 6:35 that is because of the grain of the paper. It is always easier to cut across the grain (cutting on the long side for printer paper) because it takes more force to rip it that way. Therefore the knife will cut at a lower sharpness than cutting on the short edge. I hope that made sense, it did in my head lol.

[@Woodswalker1965]

Well...there ya go. Two times with basically the same results. Thanks for taking the time and money to do these tests. I'm ok with my cheaper steels, 01, vg10, a2, etc. The more you sharpen the better you get at it right haha. BTW I use the Lansky System as well for reprofiling and sharpening some of my flat grinds. Great tool! Cheers!🍻 Wade

[@virtualshift]

I like you're video. If I was going to buy a Knife, I would prefer it to have S110V or M390 steel. Those steels are the best I have ever used and have gone the longest without have to sharpen!

[@tomfury6276]

I have a k74 with aus8, I beat this knife on a daily basis, sharpen it everyday (2 mins), it handles every task I need it for, no need for super steel. Great video, love your channel!

[@targuscinco]

what about water retention? i would really like to know in a scientific setting, why i retain water. on a hot summer day, after consuming 13-17 schlitz ice tall boys, i may be bloated to the point of having to extend my belt by upwards of 2 holes. with the same exact conditions save for consuming an extra ham samwich at lunch, i may only go up one belt hole. seems contridicrory. is the ham retaining some of the water? wouldnt the hamwater still be inside me? maybe i took an extra pee break or didnt measure my urine properly. i dont notice any change in flavor throughout the day besides possibly being a bit salty. if were being honest, and that is the point of these tests, i do sort of prefer the saltier flow, but, and this is a huge but, the odor can have an unplesant sharpness in the morning time. so i guess my question is, how do i sharpen a knife that will consistently put new holes in my belt that my mom wont notice so i wont get in trouble for eating more ham sangwitches? is mayo a factor? is it creamy, low fat or possibly miracle whip? would cool whip be as nasty as it sounds or should we get jordan ramsey on the horn cause we just came up with a banger of a sandwhitch? i look forward to your video response.

[@ramonvelasquez8431]

This pretty much confirms what I thought. If well heat threated and with a good edge geometry, a budget steel can do very well. I think the difference starts being more visible when you compare it to a good 20CV, ELMAX or MAGNACUT, then it should be more notorious. S30V shines more for its toughness which is supposedly legendary, but in my experience edge retention is not really its forte, not bad though.

[@dorenlee8918]

I"m new to knife making but am experienced in knife using. Last year I got an Elk and through the gutting and skinning process I found that my old Buck 110 held an edge far beyond any of my other knives. I have damascus steel a SOG knife and various other knives. Nothing compared to the Buck made with 440c. I am fixing to make a knife out of D2 and am hoping for an edge retention better than the 440c. Thank you for the videos they inspire me in my new found hobby.

[@OUTDOORS55]

440c is a great steel. It was the original “super steel”. I personally like regular old high carbon steel like 1080-1095 if it’s heat treated well. I’d like to do some knives in d2 in the future as it has some interesting properties. D2 really needs a cryo or cold treatment for it to really shine though. If you get it right it makes an excellent knife steel.

[@me2bfc]

I comented on the other video too. One of the issues with edge holding testing is the relationship between dulling and the amount of material needed to reach a given dullness. Very high sharpness is lost quickly, so small amounts of material cut show large changes in sharpness. However, there is a point where things level off and it takes many times the amount of material to show the same magnitude of sharpness change. It might only take 40 cuts to remove easy shaving ability, but cutting to the point it stops cutting paper might be 1000 cuts. I've cut over 3000 feet of cardboard with a $5 knife and it would still cut a folded piece of paper sitting on a table corner.

[@travispratt6327]

Another youtuber did an edge retention test by setting up a jig that dragged the edge across an abrasive with the same pressure then tested the sharpness with a sharpness tester. Sharpness testers are expensive but i’m pretty sure you can get the same sharpness test with a simple scale and thin wire (or even thread) stretched between two blocks of wood on the scale to measure pressure needed to cut. This setup would allow you to quickly wear down the edges, do many samples and resharpenings and remove pretty much all the human variables, while not wasting any rope or spending ridiculous amounts of time actually cutting or shaving. I’d really like to see this done on d2 vs 8cr13mov, as it seems the majority of reasonably priced knives use these steels.

[@jamesbarry6248]

what i love about 8cr13mov is that with a few strokes on my cutlery steel i can easily bring the edge back to razor. i will take a steel that is easy to sharpen and touch up over a hard to sharpen premium steel, any day! also with the low price of 8cr ,i can buy and carry two budget knives and double my edge retention that way.

[@Drunken_Frog_40000]

Actually my favorite steel is 14c18n. The edge retention is little bit better than 8cr14mov but it has the best edge retention/sharpening ratio. It's easy to renew the edge on piece of rock from the river, what is my point of view, the super steel has super edge retention but the resharpening is torture. (From the same reason I hate Scandinavian grind).

[@Danielson1818]

You hate the scandi grind? I'll admit that it's not exactly easy to sharpen on a river rock, but I would hope that's not your normal method of sharpening. I actually love the scandi grind, because it was the 1st I ever learned to sharpen. All you need is some decent wet sand paper on a flat surface, and it's almost difficult to mess it up. I've always liked the simplicity of it.

[@NoNamer123456789]

@@Danielson1818 IMO getting a cheap whetstone is more economical than getting sandpaper, because it'll last longer. The whetstone also leaves a nicer edge and you can do edge leading strokes. The biggest downside of a whetstone is that it dishes out, and that matters for a scandi grind (and chisels etc.), but nor really for your 'regular' knife.

[@Danielson1818]

@@NoNamer123456789 You're misunderstanding me. I'm not saying that it's ideal to use sandpaper (even though I have several times just fine). My point was that I didn't understand the OP. He was talking about sharpening with river rocks. That's just weird, and a flat sandpaper should be about the cheapest thing for sharpening. I'd agree a cheap stone is better. Plus he was saying he doesn't like scandi grinds. That just hits me odd, because scandi grinds are so flat and obvious to sharpen. Lol. Don't worry about me, I have my own stropping disk I invented for my drill and bench grinder, so all my stuff stays very sharp. It's actually pretty rare I have to sharpen, with the polishing wheel.

[@NoNamer123456789]

@@Danielson1818 My point was that in the long run it's cheaper to get a whetstone compared to buying sandpaper, because the sandpaper can only do a few sharpenings before it 'dulls', whereas you can flatten a whetstone until it's ground away completely. Especially the kind of sandpaper that can be used wet is somewhat pricey. I definitely agree that sharpening with a random rock is probably the worst option when it comes down to speed and results. And that a scandi is the best option for beginners, though it needs a flat surface to sharpen with and takes more time because there's more material to remove. On a sidenote, getting a quality diamond stone isn't overly expensive either. I can't vouch with my own experience how long it lasts, but reports on the interwebs say it should last a few years. I mean I got a DMT coarse/extracoarse for 60 bucks and it leaves quite a nice edge after stropping, while being EXTREMELY fast and never requiring flattening.

[@Danielson1818]

@@NoNamer123456789 I know. I've heard the argument a few times, that the sandpaper costs more in the long run, compared to cheaper whetstones that will last. I think that's a fact. My counterpoint would be if you already have the sand paper available at your house with nothing else. That's how I started years ago, and anyone who learns the skills would naturally want to move onto stones. I don't know why, but I haven't ever tried diamond stones yet. Not sure if they make me nervous, or that I'm just happy with the stones I already use? We'll see one of these days.

[@N0rthGym]

Highly appreciate you doing this video and sharing it with the rest of us

[@OUTDOORS55]

Thanks for watching! I really appreciate it!

[@ColdHawk]

I just plucked a really tenacious hair out of my ear. I think I should mail it to you to use for some comparative edge retention testing. Trust me when I say, this thing will separate the men steels from the boy steels! Nice video - even if “sigh-‘sel” rope is an inferior test medium compared to my ear hair.

[@PaulK390S90V]

You should only cut the paper either on the long side or sorry side. The paper has a grain that goes a certain way. So cutting the long way may go smooth and the short way will get hung up. Its weird. Even magazine paper has a grain going one way or the other.

[@ronaldmarsh7025]

As far as dulling blades, wouldn't cardboard be a faster medium to use to dull the blade?

[@OUTDOORS55]

No idea....I have found cardboard to be somewhat inconsistent. Not sure how it compares with the rope in term of consistency. I suppose you would need a whole separate test to find out which one is more consistent.

[@BMfins]

Well I use my knifes at work. I can make a 8cr13 steel dull in 3 days. Meanwhile D2 can last me a couple weeks. I have seen this over and over. But with D2 I need to sharpen with diamond stones.

[@OUTDOORS55]

I agree, I’ve seen the difference in every day use as well, but from this “ Scientific” standpoint it was tough. One reason I don’t do these test anymore 😂 Thanks for watching my friend 👍

[@alexlee1905]

Probably your D2 had a better heat treatment?

[@BBQDad463]

I thank you for these testing videos. You have provided an invaluable service to knife enthusiasts. I concur with you: A decent steel, properly heat-treated, will give excellent performance.

[@paulmarshall9189]

Good vid. My basic edge retention test is is similar to yours, with the same rope. I use (lighter) notebook paper. My general observation is within reason, geometry comes first, then hardness, then chemistry as a distant third. With the same 3/8 sisal rope, I got 250 cuts out of an S30V PM2 @ 15* DPI up to a green strop, 500 cuts from an M390 PM2 with same sharpening, 650 cuts from an M4 PM2 with same sharpening, and 1,600 cuts from a convexed Rex45 PM2. I got 500 cuts from Busse PR's in INFI and SR101 with the 15* DPI arrangement, and 700 cuts from a BA3. 1,200 cuts from a convexed BR B1 LT 3V, and 1,550 cuts from a Busse BAD (60-62 Rc) convexed and thinned out.

[@bigtobacco1098]

I had an SOG in 8cr13 that would shave hard woods... I run my knives through a 3 step system every week or after any heavy usage... I now carry a 9cr14 that gets, maybe a bit sharper, but seems to need a bit more maintenance... The d2 I have will work all day but loses the razor edge quickly and takes work to keep it...

[@casper9256]

Fron your other videos and rhe opinions in these commenrs. if i have to make thousands of cuts and sharpen away a knife to nothing to say its so close it could just be human error is the only difference that makes one knife better than the other in edge retention i would call it definitive enough. ( thankfully you did the worst part of the job for us). Heat treat on a lower end steel levels the playing field. Great video thanks for your meticulous testing.

[@Nayr747]

Why don't you get actual edge sharpness testers like project farm uses instead of subjectively looking at how they cut paper?

[@auroraborealisknives4019]

Dude the orientation of the printer paper has a large impact on slicing. I hope you noticed that

[@slchang01]

agreed. Usually fiber is lined up more or less in the machine direction, than that of the transverse direction.

[@RustyRazor9]

Its call long grain and short grain.

[@davidblack6768]

The fibers are the same length regardless. There orientation however is determined by the force to drag ratio (also called jet to wire) on the machine it was ran on

[@JohnSmith-gs4lw]

I’ve found very few papers that don’t have grain like this. Even tissue! Try tearing a Kleenex in orthogonal directions. Sometimes stuff like phonebook paper or newsprint is direction-agnostic.

[@bensartakamcas1n126]

So heat treat is key Basically

[@Darndiddlyarn]

So far my favorite knife has an N690 blade, super easy to sharpen.

[@DAVIDMILLER-nc9vo]

A very interesting and informative video, thanks. "SISAL" pronounced slowly is Size-All. Now, run the two words together. SizeAll, sisal.

[@C42WatChe42C]

awesome test, thanks for the hard work on this

[@joeramirez7879]

Spyderco knives are awesome it probably has to do with heat treating, HRC. Remember the 8cr13mov on these knives were at HRC 60 or more so excellent heat treat.

[@ukaszborowik932]

Captains log "Day 2 of testing" Love it

[@richardhenry1969]

Great video, I just wanna add something you made me think about. I remember buying kershaw an spyderco from snap-on back in the late 80s knives didn’t hold a edge like they do now. I remember when aus8 was the end all be all budget steel an 8cr held its own with them enough that everyone switched an people still bought knives. The big thing in my mind ,that was a game changer was cheap diamond stones it used to take forever to sharpen now I can sharpen a really hard steel in minutes. I believe heat treatment is the key. Like Benchmade found out on sales from their 4v but fanboys believe the lies when the manufacturer claims we left it soft for sharpening. Lol why not use cheaper steel. I believe a lot of it is just marketing if not steel like 1095 would not sell as much. The facts are in production knives they don’t take the time to heat treat to whatever steels optimum hardness is, but charge prices like they do. I really can’t justify $400 or more for a production knife. And I can’t understand why people do that’s why I rag on CRK fanboys a 30 year old design with soft steel the knives shouldn’t be over $50 I love when they say tolerances are very good they should be they are CNC parts not like 50 years ago. Everything is marketing a production knife shouldn’t cost as much as my gun. Without inlays an fancy materials but these companies are not really helping improve anything like crkt charging big money because they have a strong new lock. Instead of charging for what you have into it. I’m not saying customs are not production an people need to realize these companies act like they are custom like microtech.Anyway that’s my bitch great job an I think your 100% on point trying to prove a unprovable point the manufacturers don’t care about or they would be showing it in marketing you know

[@IlliniDog01]

What was the HRC of the Sage? I suspect it was pretty close to the Tenacious. The steels are probably similar enough that they would perform similarly at similar hardness in a sharpness test. I think S30v's biggest claim to fame is that it holds a working edge much longer. It might no longer be shaving sharp, but it will be sharp enough to do utilitarian tasks for a long time. I usually prefer my pocket knives at that level of sharpness anyway, as I'm much less likely to cut myself. There is a reason that S30v has been mostly replaced by M390 and 20CV in knives in the $125-$200 range. They usually get better edge retention when done well.

[@fabiodelucca155]

Excellent video Sir. Keep up the great work!

[@Dirkietje8]

So about why rope is abrasive I can only speculate: I did some looking into natural fibers and rope making for my chemistry study since school had a focus on green chemistry. Most natural materials possess some silicates, this is what makes a plain leather strop work, just as a paint stirrer stick works. The small silicates are in a matrix of cellulose/lignin or skin cells and I would guess the same is true for the silicates still present in the sisal fibers. Now, I'm actually not quite sure if and why synthetic fibers would also be abrasive, that's a good different test sisal vs paracord. EDIT: looked it up. Leather has 0,5 micron silicates in it, and natural fibers can also contain quite a big amount of inorganic materials, some sodium/potassium carbonate/bicarbonate but also significant amounts of silica depending on the plant. EDIT2: Sisal and Manilla Hemp hover between 0,6-1,0% Ash content and about 1% 'others', the ash is mostly the carbonates which are about 2,5 Mohs hardness. But the 'others' category is where your silicates would be located in. The consistency between ropes and even between sections of the same rope will not be controlled for and therefore will introduce a variable as you elaborated on. Actual laboratory testing of knife edges is done with calibrated paper booklets with calibrated amounts of a calibrated grain of sand in between using a calibrated machine. Very expensive stuff. You and Cedric both do an amazing job in workshop science because honestly you guys' results translate better to the real world and most tests are only relative inside of its sample size, extrapolation of data like this is much harder.

[@readhill7771]

Very great test,thank you for your work.

[@aaronhelmsman]

What if you made a jig to do cutting? Something to guide your hand in the motion, not to do the actual cutting. Just a thought. This series is very interesting to me even if you're done with it now

[@causmogroov3764]

You are a serious TROOPER!! Damn....I appreciate you and your tenacity!

[@OUTDOORS55]

You should see the blister I got from all this😉 Even through the glove😩

[@weswhaley]

I love these test great job! Do knife company's pay you to test their knifes and compare them yet? Well if not you deserve it that took quiet a bit of work. Alot of respect my dude!

[@ManVsLock]

Beast! Thanks for your dedication!

[@MountainFisher]

I make knives and use 3 steels. O1 tool steel for those who want a high carbon steel blade and O1 is hard to beat properly heat treated, ht. 440C for kitchen cutlery and D2 for everything else. I ht my D2 unlike most, not all though with the more expensive process of the 1000 degree temper. That temper gives a HRC of 60-61 with the best toughness the steel is capable of and edge holding. As they say, it is all in the heat treat. I am surprised by the 8Cr13MoV's edge holding ability. To make it more scientific a 10x Loupe should be used to look at the edge and see what may be happening there.

[@IntelWond]

That was pretty interesting. Thanks!

[@marksummerfield357]

I'm glad your getting beyond this and look forward to more videos that have nothing to do with edge retention.

[@OUTDOORS55]

This was just to satisfy my own curiosity. If I didn’t make a video of it I wouldn’t be able to justify this test. I may do some more of these in the future but only just for fun. Thanks for the comment 👍

[@projectnext5020]

I have had no good experience with 8cr13mov, It sharpens and strops nicely but falls off quicker than Stormy Daniels knickers. s30v with a slightly toothy 17 degree bevel has outlasted 8cr13mov threefold.for the same money give me 'real' D2 or 14c28n. real good vid though.

[@OUTDOORS55]

Who makes the 8cr13mov knives you tested? Ive had some 8cr that didn't last for crap. Spyderco seems to do a good job with their heat treatment. Maybe I got a good one😀

[@projectnext5020]

@@OUTDOORS55 Kershaw Oso sweet , Kershaw Al Mar Am-4 and a orange handled Elan I can't remember the name of. I was hoping it would be a nice steel replacement to a VG10 Endura that has been a fair working blade. I use my knife daily throughout the work week opening shrink wrapped pallets mainly and other things palletized. It takes a wicked edge but falls off fast although Spyderco probably has a better heat treat.The large Intrigue by Steal Will with D2 has replaced my Endura for work and for off days I like to carry the PM2 in s30v, a Kizer Sunburst in s35vn and a Benchmade 940-2. I usually put on a 17 Degree edge with the KME and strop about every two to six days. Although the shaving edge fall off every knife fairly quick it seemed the 8cr13mov would lose its working edge faster than all the steals I've mentioned so now all of those knives belong to my sons as gifts. Your tests were thorough and i respect that but I really wanted to like 8cr13mov I didn't get the results you attained.

[@projectnext5020]

Oh...my dress knife and go to church knife is the same Sage 1 that is in this video, (yes..I have a sickness) Keep up the good work!

[@user-bu5bs9cd5i]

Paper has a form of grain. That is why the hang-ups occur on the shorter side....effectively cross grain.

[@MrProctitus]

Creat video and great effort, thanks you. One question, which was easier to sharpen? (Sorry if this has already been asked)

[@marcdee4427]

Brilliant 🤩 video, I had no idea knife steels were so varied. I’ve always loved Swiss Army knives but all you experts seem to say the victorinox steel is softer than butter. So now I’m thinking 🤔 of getting an edc with better steel, only problem is I’m England based and we are not allowed lock knives. I like the leather man charge tti but again it’s a locker . So have you got any suggestions? I always liked Buck knives but apparently the steel again is only average according to stuff I’ve read . If the world’s army use Swiss Army knives I would of thought they must be good 👍🏻, can you give me some sort of handle on all this I’m lost 😞. Please understand I am a complete novice in this area I’m only trying to find out what steels are good and what ones are not so good, I’m still in shock about my saks being soft I thought they were brilliant knives I still do , but maybe that’s cos I’ve only ever used them or leatherman

[@fullfire0]

When you're cutting the paper, you're a good bit behind the sharpie mark showing where the cuts were made. Just my two-sense from browsing this video quick. Every time the paper was right below the sharpie mark on the 8cr steel it would hang up. Every, single, time

[@elconquistador98]

It’s two cents

[@SnwBrdFrvr]

I think if you keep cutting the rope till the knives wont cut the rope anymore you would probably notice the difference.

[@CJ-hw4zc]

exactly what I was thinking

[@jordantyler29]

with the paper test it depends on what side of the paper your using. The long edge or short edge one side depending on the paper will always be easier to cut than the other, it'll be the same on each side so both of the long sides for this paper he is using will easier to cut versus both of the short sides which will be harder to cut it's like this with pretty much all paper

[@davidvaughn7752]

Paper has a grain to it. Notice the knives, once worn, had trouble cutting against the grain (in this case the shorter side). You can tell how the grain runs by ripping strips of paper. If you rip against the grain the paper will not tear into thin ribbons. This is a factor in your paper-cutting base-line most importantly when they start to become dull.

[@mattsmith8707]

I think its a good point about the steel but when your talking about knives i have a tenacious and a manix 2 the manix is triple the price and u can definitely tell a difference in build quality the tenacious is an awesome knife but over years of carry the manix has held up better

[@rotex]

This would be a good test to compare axes that are used to chop. Cutting rope with a knife with this method would fold over any edge. That is why you see no comparable difference. To get the best edge retention with a knife you use a slicing motion. As a wood carver you learn the best method to carve is to slice the wood. When I cut rope I would never use the method you are using. I would slice cut the rope by draping it over the knife, better yet I would use my knife that has a partial blade that was serrated. To better compare knife steel I would devise a test where slicing was involved. When cutting cardboard a great deal of heat is generated that's one reason why box cutters are made with aluminum handles to disperse the heat. And the heat becomes a factor on blade edge retention. Thank you for your videos.

[@TheScottyp1]

wrong ir knife is not getting getting up to austenizing temp

[@rotex]

@@TheScottyp1 Friction heat created by cutting does have an effect on sharpness on any cutting tool. It does not have to reach austenitization temperature. Preventing heat build up in any cutting tool will increase the life of the blade.

[@TheScottyp1]

@@rotex no its the friction...not the heat. that little bit of heat does nothing to an edge

[@Doug6251]

I have never seen someone saw through paper like that. I think that may impact results. If you look at how you cut the paper are not cutting with just the dulled portion of the blade.

[@thiago.assumpcao]

What is important on edge retention tests is finding major differences. You don't need to pick a winner, the fact is that they are about the same and that conclusion is very important, specially if you consider price.

[@ticklesdust]

wow great video. is there an edge retention test that looks at the same knife but different sharpening angles? Or, for that matter, same knife but cutting into harder to cut objects like sticks and overzealous use of plastic cutting boards? Seems that would maybe be the area that a harder steel would perform better. Though, i think a common misconception is the steel erodes, when it more likely deforms.

[@fuschakable]

Edge retention testing can be cut down to only a few cuts, I am an hvac contractor and have cut miles of fiberglass duct board, that stuff will dull a ceramic knife in a few cuts, best knife I have found to cut duct board is a cheap serrated steak knife

[@Mikey1951ful]

Much respect for all the effort (and expense) doing these tests. Thanks!

[@marty1685]

Which steel was quickest/easiest to sharpen? If 8cr was easier to sharpen, it’s actually superior.