Overwatch's 6v6 Test: The Final Review

[@CoachSpilo]

RANKED MODE CONFIRMED for NEXT 6v6 TEST: overwatch.blizzard.com/en-us/news/24167662/director-s-take-looking-back-and-looking-ahead/

[@_FiFo_]

Hey Spilo! I know this might be a tough ask as it's more work for you, but would you consider putting the music used in your description? I could definitely recognize the tracks you use in a lot of your videos (Giorno's theme jumpscare in this case). It's a really underappreciated part of making videos, and I wish more people took it into consideration when making content especially for those who might ask "wow, that track was really good, I wonder what it was." I hope you at least consider it! 🙏

[@GameGuinAzul]

Crazy how you talked about them doing a ranked mode and then uploading the video around the same time they confirmed it.

[@Waseemmmm]

Beautiful editing

[@bob_bigfoot]

yay

[@Ingu.z]

They really need sensible balance for that I think

[@PaulStargasm]

Playing off tanks was always the more fun. Ow1 problem was never off tanks it was because people didn't want to play main tank.

[@Shrimp4Gura]

Poeple didnt want to play tank in general, thats why my queue times in ow1 were always seconds long.

[@gamist8166]

When I played it felt like people wanted to pick hog and ball, just dps heroes with bigger HP idk felt like shit, I hope for a major hog rework if we go back to 6v6 cuz any tank player queuing up and getting a hog tank partner is just lame

[@Deprece]

@@Shrimp4GuraBoth can be true. Some players didn’t mind playing Tank but only liked off tank. If they keep getting forced on Main tank then they would just stop playing tank all together. That happened to me and others I know.

[@operationlegend9746]

​@@gamist8166as a gm ball since a little after his release... I love my piggy partners... So... Personal problem ig

[@polkafucker]

I was always essentially forced onto main tank, which was fine with me, but it meant whenever I played with friends I always got stuck on rein or orisa. I love main tank don't get me wrong, but there's definitely ways to make it more favorable without affecting the other roles too much

[@quijible4839]

i was an off tank main in ow1 and when ow2 released it felt like my role had just been deleted from the game. really great to see it come back even in just a test environment and hope we get more of this.

[@uberhaxornovanongalaktiksk9798]

sad to see every offtank getting outclassed by every 5v5 tank, you cannot do anything agaisnt them because they have every single ability in the game.

[@rainer9931]

Same haha and when I played DPS I would go Doomfist 😭😭💀💀

[@uberhaxornovanongalaktiksk9798]

@@rainer9931 its crazy that even if doom was dps in ow2 literally every support would out dps him.

[@Copemaxer]

Dvs is broken af on console so we kinda got the opposite feel.

[@uberhaxornovanongalaktiksk9798]

@@Copemaxer if dps are broken on console, supports must be even better

[@BagelBoi4000]

One thing I noticed is that a lot of boops have been tolerated in 5v5 (because the tank passive is so strong) feel uncounterable in 6v6. How do you ever land a JQ axe on a junkrat when he can teleport you to the skybox with one cooldown, and how do you even get near lucio after all the buffs his boop has had.

[@Swatotastic]

Jq is just atrocious in the 6v6, the cd on shout is like 17 seconds or something + the cd only begins once the shout is over..

[@mayitakeyourhatsir8632]

not to mention brig whipshot

[@FatMCSteve]

Slightly off-topic, but I can confidently say supports is by far the most problematic role design-wise in Marvel Rivals rather than tank Most of their ults basically just being "Zenyatta ult, but lasts longer and provides an additional buff" is just really shitty and lazy game design imo

[@flowerly-m5y]

girls wont play if support will take at least 1% of skill

[@LukenszMk]

​@@flowerly-m5ycool casual sexism for no reason

[@dragoninventor]

@@flowerly-m5y That feels rather sexist and not productive to the conversation.

[@rfewer]

Sometimes when I’m on dps or tank and supports start ulting, I genuinely just go afk, I mean what else am I supposed to do 😂

[@imperatornoinga3646]

​@@dragoninventor Yeah well its partially true. How often you see chicks top fragging as a DPS? Not so often ngl

[@Jung-Kang]

I think that a lot of the reason characters like Rein and Winston don't feel very different in the 6v6 test has to do with season 9 and the way they balanced the characters. I had a significant amount of play time playing Reinhardt and Ram on the original 6v6 (7hskw) code with 200hp health for squishies. Both characters felt leagues better compared to both 5v5 and the 2-2-2 playtest. Season 9 changes how these characters interact in tank trades. With the increased health pools in season 9, tanks need a proportional increase in damage In order to exert a similar amount of pressure on squishies and take space. (examples below) 1.rein hammer going from 85 -> 100 2. ram punch going from 60 -> 75 3. Zarya beam going from 170 -> 190 dps at full charge HOWEVER, if you look at the health pools for TANKS in the 6v6 2-2-2 mode, they are almost identical to the health pools in OW1. (Reinhardt is exactly the same as peak 85 damage hammer buff Reinhardt, and only 25 armor more than end of OW1 Reinhardt). This means that tank trades are now significantly more lethal than they were previously, on top of the fact that frontline spam, which is more effective in 6v6, is even stronger due to the larger projectile sizes. (you take proportionally more damage than you would pre s9 - higher damage, same health). This on TOP of the DPS passive reducing healing by 20% that ALSO lingers 2 seconds makes it very difficult to take space without shielding to prevent exhausting even more resources due to the inefficiency of healing tanks while they take damage, and even discourages shield hopping since you will keep the dps passive on you the whole time. Basically, s9 punishes aggression from initiators due to the increase frontline pressure (caused by increased health pools) when you overstep to the point where its not worth doing, working in tandem with the DPS passive preventing healing from recuperating HP effectively. This leads to a very boring gameplay loop where you try and avoid taking as much damage as possible instead of trying to initiate in order to prevent drawing an unsustainable amount of resources from your supports. The compensating buffs they DID give to Reinhardt (2000 shield health) even further incentivize this, since shieldbotting just becomes the most optimal way to take space. I do believe that this line of reasoning applies to other initiators as well, although I am most knowledgeable about Reinhardt.

[@ieToastie]

Thank you for putting this into words much better than I could during the interview. All I could come to say was "it feels good to kill things" but this theory completely backs up my feelings. Well said!

[@bigfudge2031]

I can't take min1 max 3 seriously. It is just a diet open queue, and It still has all the same problems. If they were to replace OQ with M1 M3, then that would be fine, but it can't replace 2/2/2

[@ethio6308]

Agree 💯. Also you it is "first come first serve" which is stupid in the sense that you get locked into either tank or support when you can't or don't want to play either of them. I'd rather have everyone choose their desired roles beforehand so everyone is comfortable playing.

[@TheHash789]

I think it was always meant to be a form of open queue no? like being able to swap to any role/hero (with a restriction). Also I think hero picks mattered alot for comps that weren't 2-2-2 as well as how they synergised with the team imo. But when you do get a team like that (tho rarely) it felt AMAZING.

[@Swatotastic]

Yeah, the problem with no role queue is that this is an unranked gamemode. Almost every game is triple random dps or triple tank, usually one support. It’s unplayable this way and unless you are 6 stacking, most of the rounds are just meaningless mayhem with no strategy

[@bigfudge2031]

@Swatotastic Even with ranked, it would still be a problem. You will still get people insta lock dps and refuse to switch until it is already too late. Another problem is if someone is a "master" support player and they join a game with 3 other supports and they are forced to play tank, which they might only be "plat" yet the game treats them as if they are master and then they are way out of their depth.

[@ccsam1516]

I enjoyed the 6v6 a lot more than the 5v5 we've had for a couple years. I had a lot of fun with the game, but rivals came out and took up 90 hours of my free time in the past month. Plus a lot of my friends have been fed up with overwatch and preferred rivals. So I ended up barely playing. But overall, I really enjoyed the 6v6. It was my favorite state of overwatch since the beginning of overwatch 2. I hope they don't take the wrong lesson from the release of rivals and think that 6v6 was a failure.

[@aepokkvulpex]

Ball having no shield hp was devastating to his passive heals, both the rate per second and the overall heal-to-full time

[@flowerly-m5y]

he easily getting every healthpack. he is already very strong in right hands and nearly unkillable if no counters.

[@jackcern6776]

​@@flowerly-m5y ofc, but it's just felt anti-qol. In 5v5 all you have to do is grab a mini and you can be in the fight in a few seconds, while in 6v6 you need to grab a mega

[@ieatbugs45]

@@jackcern6776uhh, ball should not just need to go and grab a single mini to immediately get back in the fight…

[@rdr1973]

I was there the whole time and support was consistently the longest queue. So actually proportionally support players loved 6v6 Tank was the shortest queue ofc

[@Nyxtia]

That's not what that stat means. I played mostly supp in 6v6 because I was most interested to see how it felt. But it felt absolutely horrible.

[@t1gdisgamer961]

It’s fantastic that MR came out at the right time for the people who would have actually played it didn’t so now it looks like no one cares!

[@glasspaper3]

Ok but at this point those players largely aren't coming back. Why cater to people who aren't actively playing/enjoying overwatch when there are millions of players who like the game now?

[@魚-c3d]

We had predicted it

[@Odyssey-tr8mt]

​@glasspaper3 I don't get that attitude, just because people are trying a new game, doesn't mean they'll never play the old game again. That isn't even how it works...

[@Fixer48]

If the original ow1 was here rn everyone would be playing that and rivals while ow2 would actually be dead

[@huckmart2017]

​@@glasspaper3the point is that if they had listened to the community earlier, they would have done these tests ages ago and maybe if they had implemented 6v6 by now, overwatch would actually be real competition for rivals. But of course, like everything blizzard trys, they self sabotaged by leaving it until after the majority of the playerbase that cares already left.

[@jaakezzz_G]

one of the reasons I love your analyses is because you are fully aware when your arguments are leaning on bias or subjectivity, and when they are leaning on objective facts. Armor is inconsistent: fact. Long cooldowns are not fun: opinion. Overall good analysis, I personally don't mind long powerful cooldowns (like 30 sec revive for example), but pretty much everything else I agree with.

[@laurentbetoulle9369]

Nice review ! I'm looking forward for the s9 video next, because I really like your input :)

[@WeedNoTobbaco]

"rivals has definitely diminished a great deal from player base" lmao it was at 400k on launch and now is at 380k.... oh no we lost 5% of the main hype after 2 month, huge player drop hahah (if you know games stats this is a joke most games lose over 50% after 2 month)

[@CodeAllos]

I was a main tank player in OW1 and played Tank for the first year and a half of OW2. Tank in the 6v6 formats were the most fun I've had on the role since OW1. Although the role has eternal negatives, I feel they were greatly mitigated by the existence of a 6th player. Even playing min.1 max.3 felt objectively better than current format for me. The more macro oriented gameplay is what drew me into OW and it returning in some form with the 6v6 tests has re-sparked my love for the game.

[@xRichieeex]

From what I remember Rivals was suppose to release a bit later in 2025 but they seem to have released it earlier than expected.

[@josephpoole3942]

And it's extremely obvious that it came out too early

[@certifiedfunnyguy]

​@josephpoole3942 at least no hero breaking bugs like unlimited bastion ult on release

[@xRichieeex]

@ Yeah that shit has so many bugs, It definitely needed more time to cook.

[@mycelia_ow]

Originally it was supposed to come out in 2020 before OW2, but then 2020 happened......

[@YayaPecZ]

@@certifiedfunnyguyThe only time bastion feelt like BASTION

[@aeloh6921]

I personally found 6v6 to be significantly less enjoyable than 5v5. It feels like despite having more players in the lobby, less of the map ends up being used. It's very easy for a lane of the map to collapse if your team tries to spread out too much in 6v6. Angular control feels significantly less important. I also feel that 6v6, if given more time in game, especially if they allow 6v6 competitive, will be bound to devolve into macro heavy metas over and over again. One can tangibly feel that the outcome of a given match is more prone to randomness and teammate RNG than 5v5. Less agency, less angles, less need to think frankly... One simply has fewer positional options in 6v6. 6v6 does provide some relief from the burden of having so many positional options and it is nice feeling less responsible for the outcome of the match, but it's a comfort that I distrust. It feels easier to kinda just zone out and go with the flow in 6v6 but again, I don't know if that's a good thing. I will say that after a tough day of work logging in and playing 6v6 definitely feels less stressful, but it comes at a cost. If you've ever watched professional chess you would have seen great players sometimes taking a moment to admire the absolutely fascinating position of the current board. Often the pieces are currently in a never before seen position on the board, creating all kinds of novel angles and points of pressure. I find myself looking around in matches of 6v6 and finding absolutely nothing to be positionally interesting most of the time.

[@ejomon_27]

I just want to point out: although the twitch viewership has gone down, Rivals' playerbase essentially hasn't diminished at all; it was roughly 400,000 around launch, and it's around 400,000 now. There was a peak at the start of season one, but the fact the game has seen nearly perfect player retention so far is notable.

[@leviking3828]

kind of off topic, but i think part of the reason for the success of marvel rivals is because they took the console community into account way more. i am a console player myself and I think a lot of people considered the console player base to be quite small when that was literally not the case(obviously not as large as pc). Content creation is just less common of console players. Overwatch just did not care about console at all, like certain characters are just fundamentally do not work on console as well such as echo where u have to scramble button mappings around to try and make it work vs just playing soldier. Also Despite the belief that projectile characters like pharah are dominant on console it is actually the complete opposite hitscan has been perma meta on console overwatch even longer than pc, Ashe had like a 60% for the past year in gm competitive. I understand appealing to the majority but it did so at the cost of alienating a large part of the playerbase. Marvel rivals definitely had console in mind more when designing the characters and you really can just tell, they have specific button mappings for every character not just the same thing on every single one, way more aim and aim assist options, and they even had a survey asking how it felt to control characters on console.

[@poke9395]

but weren't the projectile sizes changed back along the healthpools in ow classic? sure there's more heroes now but saying it was technically impossible doesn't make sense to me.

[@ieatbugs45]

that’s exactly what i was wondering too

[@RenZeffie]

I appreciate your insight about why the season nine changes weren't reverted. When the 6v6 balance patch was released, some folks I knew were extremely frustrated and I suspected there was *something* we were missing.

[@xerxstirb]

I found it strange that you didn't mention Junker Queen when talking about heavy handed cooldowns; she's terrible in this 6v6 patch. In 5v5 her shout is an engage tool, she gets some wounds off for sustain and then in a while she has shout to disengage or react to cooldowns like Ana nade. During this test she doesn't have the health pool to engage without cooldowns, her shout was on way too long of a cooldown and the life steal barely existed; especially since knife got blocked by two tanks. I always found myself waiting around a corner going "okay, 6 seconds until I can tank again". Just terrible. Front lining feels a lot better in 6v6. In 5v5 if you frontline you can't really help out the rest of your team while taking space, in 6v6 you have another tank that can peel and keep your team safer. I think one of the reasons that supports became pretty healbotty is because of the DPS passive. The reduced healing really just meant healing the same target for longer periods of time. DPS damage is more effective but at the cost of lowered support damage output from having to focus on healing meant ttk really didn't change. To quote Medic from TF2: "Ze healing is not as rewarding as ze hurting". It wouldn't be as apparent for Bap, Brig, Illari, Lucio, Moira or Zen that can damage and heal at the same time. Ana, Juno, Kiriko, Weaver and Mercy are the ones to feel it.

[@SocialDesignFlaw]

I think this entire testing cycle is confirmation that the current Dev Team really needed to experience 6v6 as a format for themselves, based on many of the points Spilo brings up in the video. There were a few glaring omissions and, what I'd call, distractions in the process of re-designing and balancing everything that would have drastically improved the format for a lot of the heroes/roles. Calling it growing pains as the OW2 dev team tries to rewind back into a different design mentality. I will say, Main Tanking is miles better in 6v6, just b/c of that extra Tank demanding attn. from the enemy. It can still feel like you're exploding, but those moments are punctuated by an attempt at an unlikely strategy, as opposed to 5v5 where it comes down to whatever god you pray to shining a light in the enemies eyes so they don't notice you're trying to do something. Armour, Tank CDs, Tank Health, and a minor Knockback Passive (20%) w/ individual Tank options to increase that % with certain mechanics (Ex. JQ's carnage animation, Reinhardt deploying his barrier, Winston Leap, should all double that %) are all good shouts for what should be considered, but also Damage/Healing burst and most Passives removed entirely. On Projectiles? I do not understand why they have been avoiding the main method of balancing Projectile spam that OW1 used pretty liberally. Drop the Travel Speed on the majority of them. It doesn't need to be drastic, but if you don't want Hanzos and Junks launching down lane from a safe distance, make the projectiles easier to avoid the further from the hero's you are. Hanzo's arrows used to be way slower, same with Junk 'nades, Sym orbs, Pharah Rockets, etc. Force projectile heroes to play closer and increase their risk, especially if the damage output isn't going to change much.

[@Khfan_98]

Love your hot takes, Spilo! Hope you never stop being a voice for the OW community.

[@WillOfTheFungalNetwork]

I dont think I will ever play this game again, except for ball in 6v6. I had so much fun playing 6v6 ball and I really havent been having fun in ow for a while

[@Kineticfriction13]

Same.. mostly playing rivals now myself.

[@WillOfTheFungalNetwork]

@@Kineticfriction13 for me its mostly been The Finals

[@carlossolorzanoescobar4945]

6 v 6 ball is peak ow, its like a cocaine line for me

[@Femboy_Grey]

Literally the only reason I have it installed is because of ball. He’s too unique to not enjoy

[@redpandaplush5980]

the good games of 6v6 I've had are such a high that reminds me of how great overwatch can be, but the good games feel few and far between. I'm not really sure where I stand on what the main mode should be

[@shiba473]

Being honest I did not play much of the 6v6 test for one very simple reason, that being that to me junker queen felt awful. In 5v5 she feels like butter to play but in the limited time I did play her in the test I never could quite understand how she could take space or support on an angle. Like she has the tools but the sustain nerfs she received felt either like I was so relient on shout (long cooldown cycle as spilo mentioned) to be able to engage that I felt I couldnt do that when I wanted to, or that I was so reliant on my other tank taking space for me which was never consistent, not to mention that I alweasy felt it would have been better to just be on a different ake that could either more effectively frontline or effectively off tank. I wonder if this is just a skill issue on my end or somewhat indicative of an issue that may affect one of the single best characters they have made (imo imo obv) which Iwould absolutely hate to lose if 6v6 ever does come back in a more permanent way (that would prob be at least a year away bc owcs)

[@TV-vz7rf]

Also, I'm imagining these subtitles are AI because so many of them were wrong.

[@LukenszMk]

Not even checking the output before releasing the video? Yikes.

[@alterablebark54]

I was gonna comment the same thing but now I'm wondering why they disappeared halfway through the video

[@mycelia_ow]

@@LukenszMk nobody does

[@AsinfuIParadox]

I realized that when they logged the "um"

[@alterablebark54]

​@@AsinfuIParadoxat 14:50 it turns "if we do go" into "if we google" too

[@Chinesetakeout382]

I just had a lot of fun figuring out how the new tanks fit in the main and off tank role. Me and my old tank duo from the overwatch one days had a lot of fun with thing. We ran sigma ram a lot, which technically could be considered double shield, but the strength of the combo is less that and more enabling ram more with sigma shield and the rock. Ramattra in general is fun in the format because his base form kinda plays like an off tank, but his nemesis form plays like a main tank.

[@Westbrook__]

They really shouldn't be shocked that the player participation was only 10% for the 6v6 test. Not fully balancing the mode and removing 5v5 changes for the 6v6 test, drives people away. Releasing the test at the same time that a competitor game just came out that is giving people what they want, which is that overwatch 1 feeling, drives people away. Basically coming out and saying "hey these tests pretty much mean jack shit because we aren't actually going to change the game regardless", drives people away.

[@Real_MisterSir]

Also most of the new players that joined after OW2 and f2p haven't really had any incentive to desire a 6v6 playtest, so I bet many didn't really bother. Also the mode being time limited and having no competitive integrity and questionable timing didnt help

[@Autumn_21-s4z]

Or 6v6 isn’t that popular or wanted. Always an excuse smh

[@Westbrook__]

@@Autumn_21-s4z It's not excuses, it's called context. If you wanna be a dumbass like the dev team and ONLY look at numbers with zero context, you are more than welcome to live in that lalaland right with them. But down here on Earth and this thing called reality, yeah! Those things I listed 100% affect the player participation of the test mode.

[@supperenet9090]

I didn't participate because I started from OW2 and 6v6 tanking isn't fun.

[@Westbrook__]

@@supperenet9090 and that makes perfect sense for someone who started in OW2. 5v5 is all you know so you're more accustomed to it. But don't let 6v6 tanking from that test fool you, that is NOT OW1 6v6 tanking. They didn't even bother trying with the balance of that mode.

[@Eastra3]

I've picked Orisa next to Sigma or Ram a lot in the playtest, specifically if we were going against a Rein, because Rein can bully those two so badly, and Orisa is one of the few tanks that can meet Rein's physicality with physicality of their own. For me, the reworked Orisa in 6v6 is a lot closer to an off tank, being a peeler, than a front line dmg sponge like in 5v5, or a shield bot in OW1.

[@Shiftup72]

As a ball main your take on tank lethality makes a lot of sense...until you factor in the dps passive. My solo kill potential went down but my ability to setup kills went up. A good setup with a dps can get a kill without every fight coming down to the attrition of resources.

[@Red_Rem]

The tank duo synergy was such a massive part of OW1; for better or for worse. Because of how 5v5 was rolled out, it was always going to be met with animosity from OW1 players. We were basically expected to have blind faith in the OW team knowing what's best for the game, despite that trust not being built beforehand. With the whole sh*t storm timeline between OW1 & OW2, any remaining trust players had in the OW team diminished even further. So, even when the devs are willing to release public tests for a 6v6 format, players are quick to call it 'sabotaged' & 'false hope'. I think OW has their back against the wall right now & they need to dig in if they want to stay alive. A 6v6 mode on its own won't save OW, but I think the way they're publicly testing the 6v6 format shows a shift in the right direction at rebuilding that trust.

[@AnEveryManJack]

Glad I'm not crazy when it came to "engage" tanks. I've been a main tank player since 2018, and really didn't like the 6v6 test. I didn't feel like I could really take any risks. Just play it very methodical and safe. I feel way more impactful and engaged in 5v5. I remember seeing a lot of DVa, Roadhog at the end of OW1, and it makes sense after this test.

[@jacobbaartz7710]

Bold of you to not be all faithful in our saving graces of 6v6

[@mayitakeyourhatsir8632]

yeah i agree with the take about wanting a smaller knockback reduction for all tanks. not all of them need the big one, but i remember playing a 6v6 game as JQ on new junk city on the point where it's beneath the bridge with the boxes to climb on high ground, i kept trying to climb to the high ground and everytime i got up there the enemy brig would immediately whip shot me back down. i literally couldn't participate in the team fight happening on high ground and it was just a very frustrating experience

[@Kootsworth]

On the topic of season 9, I wholeheartedly agree with the problems with lethality but more from the perspective of the major discrepancy between the cast now. 200 on widow, 300 on reaper? 175 on tracer, 275 on cassidy? I don't like that big of a gap even as a dps or support player. Not to mention the breakpoints they've had to individually choose to bring back and only for select heroes. Major point here being season 9 was described as a way of nerfing heals, I actually think in the end all it did was mess up breakpoints and the lethality of the game.

[@Generallyslow]

Old hog felt bad. They changed right click from 10m to 13m for some reason. really messed with my "feel" of right click

[@ieatbugs45]

I KNEW there was something off about it

[@kapipei8028]

25:16 i know, its shocking that the devs havent realised that people... like playing the game, and making the cooldowns longer and longer and longer is just actively taking away more and more of what people would say is the "fun" of overwatch, we used to get ults far quicker, and now we get them super slowly so we have to ult track, and now so many cooldowns are so incredibly long that you're able to track them consistently. that could be seen as a "skill check" which for some abilities it should be, (ana nade and sleep dart for example), but tracking ramattras barrier? really? is the cooldown THAT valuable that it deserves to be tracked to the same extent as an ultimate? regardless, my point is i'd rather honestly take a page out of rivals book and allow people to get their ultimates far far far quicker, it would take a great deal of frustration out of the game, "ugh my ult got cancelled by suzu" or some other kind of interaction. Let the people play the game, and they will enjoy it, make the game a math equation and make cooldowns and ult costs too high, and they wont.

[@lamsauce4266]

Coming from someone been playing OW since 2017 and maining tank, I absolutely hate how it feels to play tank in 6v6 in comparison to 5v5. I feel so much weaker individually, forced to work with my other tank and constantly hoping that tank could/would work along with me. The tank role feels much more limited to what I should be doing with the mindset of anchor/off tank. It's either face slamming the other tank, or chasing/being chased by the other tanks in circle. My support main friends hate going back to 6v6 for being pressured into playing heal bot. The game is either a chaotic mess with ppl running aimlessly, or a ball groups fight where we just wait around for 12 ultimates for like 5 secs of teamfight, then go back to more poking and waiting.

[@blanchi_m]

After watching people be all hyped about 6v6 i genuinely decided to put away my memories and personal experience of 6v6 in OW1 and give it a try. And Oh God it felt so much like a remember it. I had A LOT of fun on zarya because i get to dps and be beefy without really taking all the punches but pretty much any other role felt just as terrible. After some more playing i got the feeling that i won't be playing 6v6 except for trying the new iteration and if the game shifts all the focus back to 6v6 i'm probably out. I'm primarily a tank player and 6v6 that was made mostly for tank players just doesn't do it for me. And it's becoming difficult to think "maybe the next 6v6 will actually show me what's fun about it, maybe i'm just missing something".

[@dubby_ow]

I have the same feeling about playing Winston in 6v6, it was often quite awful and I had no impact, because my other tank played something that doesn't help me. If I even dared trying to dive against spam comps by myself, my uptime was like 2s of damage pressure, my bubble broken and I had to run to cover to not explode and I achieved nothing. I felt very helpless compared to 5v5. I play this game since 2017 so it's not like my 6v6 fundamentals aren't there. My lifetime winrate on Winston is 56% and suddenly I couldn't do anything. My another issue was healbotting. I love playing Ana and other damage oriented supports. I really enjoy the skill expression of being able to multitask between pressure, healing and hitting skillshots like a sleepdart. My 6v6 experience was sometimes dreadful, because of that. I still did have games when I could pop off with my aggressive playstyle, but there were more games where I was forced to healbot way more and especially this feels awful in situations when my team was significantly worse. Try to make an impact by doing damage = my team dies and I get blamed for not healing, I try to healbot, my team isn't translating that into kills. It's a lose-lose situation. The last thing that I dislike is how bad players can win games with an ease due to 6th person making up for them. It genuinely pisses me off, because of how many times I faced someone genuinely terrible and they got away with it. I could be dominating enemy Zarya in a mirror, but since the rest of her team was better than mine, I can't win. Or I play vs some awful Sombra, doing an absurd level of mistakes, but when I try to punish those by chasing her on Winston for example, then I face some insane pressure from their Dva running me over. Or guess what, enemy Ana is pushed up too far forward with no cover, great dive target for me, but no she gets pocket and there's Cass spamming at me. They didn't get their damage nerfed, but my healthpool was and there's 1 more person shooting at me. I'm experiencing shorter windows of opportunity and less of them at the same time, because of the sheer damage output. Blatant mistakes now get rewarded, because it's way easier to peel.

[@mrbubbles8690]

Wow, I had a completely different experience plaguing main tank than you! I thought i would always be playing off tank, but I enjoyed main tank more!! 21:00

[@CoachSpilo]

Hey, nothing is clearly objective in this. As someone who used to main both Rein/Winston, it wasn't my cup of tea with this test.

[@Anonymous-lv4di]

6v6 was even more confusing than 5v5, Support was more just healing and going for a kill felt worse because you get focused more because of another tank in the enemy team, DPS was A LOT MORE FUN, as an Overwatch 2 player I never knew I wanted to 1v1 tanks and win and honestly I didn't like playing tank, I prefer 5v5 tanking so honestly I think I would only ever play 6v6 for DPS

[@P1THY-ow]

Do you think more hero tips would help the issue with map synergy? Like we used to have warnings in the open queue days about not playing 2/2/2, we could have little tips on the side when picking heroes on certain maps. Pick Rein on Gibraltar and a little tip appears to make the player think twice about their pick. Not telling you to swap outright, just an fyi. You could have that on every hero when picking them; a small rundown of their strengths and weaknesses contrasted by a map "qualifier" (ie: Gibraltar = important highgrounds). As in you'd have a sentence or two about your hero (as concise as possible) next to another one about the map itself (or maybe just have the map infor somewhere else). It could be a game changer for new players and might increase match quality and new player retention. The user could, as you can now, disable these tips down the line. I know some would say it dumbs the game down too much but improving game quality (if it does) is better than gatekeeping. Some players would disregard the tip altogether but at least the game makes you think about your choice more than you initially would. I think Overwatch struggles with conveying important hero information to new players. A system like that would improve their experience.

[@Moddum123]

As a support player, I felt way more myself in 6v6, I felt like there was a ton to do to support my team, and heal botting didn't even cross my mind. Maybe it's because my other healer and I would naturally split the difference and cover eachother and each tank anyway, idk it just came naturally.

[@artimist0315]

I'm not gonna lie, even as someone that does not have a problem with 5v5, this 6v6 test did felt good overall. I only started playing main tanks in OW2 and I have to say that they felt particularly awful in 6v6 compared to 5v5, you feel like you gave almost no agency due to being ultra reliant on your team to follow up on your engagements, not feeling like a threat or a particularly big roadblock just makes the role feel very awkward and specific, almost like playing launch symmetra where you are playing more for the cooldown you provide and not for you actual fun. Angle taking squishies also felt a bit worse with off tank being so good at controlling angles, where as in OW2 they mostly feel like independent heroes that can go on their own little adventure and control important part of the map on their own, in 6v6 this play style feels less valuable and more dangerous, this is really map dependant though.

[@starblaiz1986]

Honestly I was a 6v6 sceptic, but the test actually pleasantly surprised me, and I had a lot of fun playing it. I'm glad to see I wasn't the only one enjoying it, and I think It should definitely come back as its own mode, but I don't think it should replace 5v5. I think the two can peacefully co-exist, and why have OR when you can have AND?

[@Opti-Miser]

im a support main and im having a LOT of fun playing off tank in min1max3, a lot of my games end up full of support players so its been really nice being able to let them play support and switch to my Zarya to support my other tank and trade off pressure! I used to play tank a lot more in overwatch 1 where i didnt have to be the main initiator since that doesnt fit my playstyle as well, so its been fun to see that re-emerge with the less restrictive non role queue and 6v6 in the current test!

[@Lucigu888_OW]

Love how on 12:39 you talk about the armor problem and I think is not nearly talked about ENOUGH. For me the armor revertion was THE ONE change that completly fucked up the balance of junkrat. He had been taken on a better direction slowly, and that change outdid a lot of that. And in 6v6 this one change cause junkrat to become that much better on this format, in the WORST posible way. There is other things can contributed to it like the s9 hp pools and how much downtime tanks have, making that junkrat getting a tank away that easily get even more value, and then the mine higher cd forcing him to play that much more safe. There is a talk to be had about the direction of junkrat, and armor is the big bad that needs to be adressed if we ever want to move junkrat forward. I really do hope they listen to you solution, because its THE MOST IMPORTANT thing that needs to happen for junkrat to ever be shifted on a better direction. Great video man❤

[@zerot216]

Great Video! The only thing I would personally disagree on (might be an issue of preference) was Winston feeling worse in 6vs6. I actually had completely opposite results from what you have when playing him: I found myself absolutely exploding in 5vs5 with out of any ability to apply any actual pressure against supports (Playing Winston into Lifeweaver/Mercy was a nightmare, the consistent healing felt completely impossible to break through), DPS, or tanks (Especially against certain match ups (Roadhog)). My experience is that every support had two less players to worry about, (the tank they had to help sustain in the fight and a tank which was supposed to pressure them to reposition, to distract, or both), which meant that supports were allowed to easily focus heal anyone on their team making it impossible for any non-burst-damage tanks like Winston to get a kill by themselves. In 6vs6, even though Winston had less effective HP and Armor, he felt much better to play as, no matter what match up it was, (except Zarya/Mauga, it was still very possible, but was much more difficult for Winston then it was for Mauga or Zarya). It felt much more strategic and skillful, with Winston being very reliable on playing around his bubble and leap in order to kill a DPS or a support. The match up was also more winnable in a 1vs1 scenario for an opposing player since it wasn't as much based on who has a higher health pool, but more on the fact who outplays one another, for example: A Winston playing around his bubble really well, or a Genji who hits 3 Headshots continuous Headshots (even though very unlikely, still more possible then trying to breakthrough 5vs5 healthpool with the same Genji having to hit twice as much Headshots then in a previous match up). The fact that Winston is not being able to "peak" with out of loosing his entire health pool sounds more like a skill issue, at least in my opinion (please, correct me if I am wrong). I am pretty sure that if you have to walk in order to pass the zone of crossfire, then you made a mistake managing your Leap cool down. Winston's mobility should allow him to cross these dangerous areas of the map to angles where enemies will feel less comfortable shooting at. And even if you do explode, it probably means that you "cheated" your setup stage of the fight, where you jump straight into the enemy. At least, that was what my experience was. i am not reading all that

[@soccerthepkmnmaster]

You did not really explain why Winston is better in 6v6, only said it was more strategic and skillful, which is extremely vague.

[@zerot216]

@@soccerthepkmnmaster Well, by talking about skill and strategy, I meant that the hero has much more carry potential, since he doesn't rely on his and someone's stats (HP, Armor, Self Sustain), making the worse match ups feel much better for him. He also felt better in cases where he wasn't normally able to confirm eliminations, which is basically every tank, so I did not mind including it, even though it does feel better on him then any other tank. His bubbles feel much better to use, since there is much more depth to it, with another player on the team, making him even more engaging. Its just that feeling of "that bubble was so smart, it helped my teammate" which you do not really get in 5vs5. His burst damage combo also works much better against tanks, due to smaller health pools.

[@soccerthepkmnmaster]

@@zerot216 Because there is another player... your bubble feel smarter? Because 5v5 has no smart bubble usage?

[@zerot216]

@@soccerthepkmnmaster It still does, but bubbles are mostly used for just tanking damage and protecting yourself against CC (which still feels good) and not as much playing around your team.

[@soccerthepkmnmaster]

@@zerot216 In 6v6, you sit around your team more and take less aggressive duels?

[@MaybeT0XIC]

Jojo soundtrack for talking about tempo is a great idea

[@chase0373]

I’m curious to see your season 9 retrospect video. I’ve never really understood why people are saying to revert it

[@FuruHataNinzaburo-w8z]

Thank you for remaining so objective as a content creator and I almost agree with everything you said. Even with all its flaws, I think 5v5 OW is still clearly a better and improved experience than 6v6 or Marvel Rivals. I understand there are a lot of fatigue from OW and its development, so I empathize, but the overwhelming motivated reasoning that surrounds 6v6 and Rivals ignoring all of their flaws is fascinating.

[@MeepFromSpongebob]

In regards to bad tank comps on certain maps, I would also agrue as a pro 6v6 argument, that tanks are not as oppressive as they are in 5v5 so sure its harder to be -2 (two bad tanks for the situation and they have 2 good ones) but is it worse to be -2 with weaker tanks or -1 with a super tank with inflated hp, stats, damage and passives? Guess it depends but I much prefer the downsides lf 6v6 over 5v5 for this

[@ColorDragon]

It was fun. Hope it sticks around. Fun to change it up once in a while.

[@iPhoneDragon]

Curious to hear your opinions on flankers dps like genji/tracer in general. I assume you don’t mention them in the video because either you didn’t have much experience of them in 6v6 tests due to limited time, or they largely feel the same. If it’s the latter it makes sense. Yeah there’s one more tank to contest me as a flanker in off angle, but tank is easier to duel due to lower health so it evens out.

[@Chrono-MR]

I do think an open-q role lock format is the way to go, we've stomped anyone trying 2-2-2. We've been running 2-1-3, 1-2-3. Pretty much the same comps we run in rivals and the results are pretty much the same.

[@BETAsin]

The concept of min 1 is a lot more fun and allowed from some of the creativity from OG ow than 222. We can adjust the numbers if triple tank or triple support with illari is too strong.

[@Koyote2033]

Min1 feels so much more chaotic and unfun than 5v5. I'm out if they implement it, ngl

[@Rhizo_TV]

Support Main here. There was a time where 2-2-2 felt OK, and teammates didn't explode. Now with DPS passive, it feels like you have constantly pump heals or you can't keep up. I personally don't mind 5v5. I might even say i enjoy it more than before because I'd rather deal with one stupid tank than two stupid tanks. However, 5v5 has a large flaw in that the old tanks in the roster weren't created with 5v5 in mind. Whatever comes our way, hopefully the balance team can polish things more.

[@viktorradosavljevic702]

Season 9 saved the game. Tanks are broken because they are just tuned poorly, same with the tuning of all the individual abilities that were either left behind or buffed way too late, the dps passive, the current design of armor and hero design of some characters that were "left behind" because of said design. Season 9's direction is literally the best direction this game's had since launch and has made the game so much more stable accross all ranks, it just isn't the only thing the game needs. It's a strong foundation, now we need to build a house on it.

[@justinwinterspear]

Honestly, i kinda didn't care for tanking in the 6v6 mode. Stomping the enemy team or playing on par with them didn't feel any better but getting stomped was way worse.

[@Eastra3]

I still believe that Rein needs most of his kit's power moved into his charge and out of his shield, so that Rein doesn't have to be a team escort shield bot. I think his shield is a crutch for a lot of players, and its time the community learns to not stay in chokes, and use the natural map cover more.

[@benlink202forever]

Hungover spilo goes hard

[@jonahkey9313]

I honestly think it was BAD because when I watched spilo play it he randomly GAVE ME VIP and then he TOOK IT AWAY the very NEXT stream.

[@Bken96]

I would argue that the rein and winston not feeling good thing is a problem with their individual balancing. Like, rein having to shield bot isn't necessarily the format. I don't think it would be bad at all to remove shield health and 1. give him his old unique cc reduction passive back, and 2. maybe give him more armor/health after reworking it like you said. I'm very convinced these would help how he feels a lot and make him less one dimensional. basically my point though is that I just don't like how you framed it as if it was inherently a main tank issue while also only brining up rein and winston who both could individually use help.

[@chazaiya]

wait i just noticed that's a juno hoodie where did u get this 😭

[@SaintPolaris1]

I can agree main tank is still a dismal experience in 6v6. Had a really awful game as rein. My team was blaming me for not taking space but there's not much you can do on rein into junk, doom, venture tossing you around. Don't get me wrong, I like 6v6 more. I just wish the role felt more rewarding.

[@noshibas]

I would like to see in depth analysis of some more pro play for rivals, I am excited though for the future of overwatch

[@ItsJustaperson]

Ok Spilo, I can't ignore this anymore. Whoever is responsible for picking the music for your videos has UNPARALELLED taste.

[@stephanyjablonofsky9749]

I think this video was made before the last director's take. We had 10% of all of players in 6v6, and that was with people leaving for rivals. They are gonna do a 6v6 comp next season!! Im hyped!! Adios 5v5, for me at least

[@mattgeffery8577]

6v6 2 2 2 just reinforced that i prefer the format. I think it also just re-enforced that i think the whole design around most of the main tanks is wrong. I think that they are too passive too often. You end up waiting for a lot of things rather than acting. A lot of the main tanks even have things that make them slower, like walking with rein shield or orissa fortify, etc.

[@Eastra3]

As much as the role passives get shat on, I really think the DPS passive is the most necessary, as it is one of the main reasons the 6v6 test didn't feel like it had too much sustain. I actually think the Tank and DPS role passives are very reasonable; the support passive--don't really care for that one in 6v6.

[@hoolly]

@Spilo Simple Question - Do you think Tank as a whole, with the responseability, with the social pressure, with all the counterswapping shit is more or less enjoyable right now or in 6vs6? Tanks which have no mobility should get a little bit of knockback resistance - maybe for every single tank hero different numbers I just can say as a ball player - queen knife and lucio boop - boops you straight onto another map XD

[@Doople]

Honestly it seems less an issue on format and more an issue about what to do with tanks. Seems like each format's largest sticking point is tanks. Support and DPS seems like a toss up depending on if you want less pressure or more agency. Hope the big update includes changing tanks regardless of format because both would need it

[@user-rg9co7dk2r]

12:36 I agree that there should be a combination of old and new armour with the added exception that armour shouldn't stack with the existing tank headshot passive, it should use whatever is stronger but not add them together as this maintains tank survivability but keeps it so that you can still do reasonable dmg

[@fungithefungi3331]

I dont play much ow2 right now. But that isnt due to rivals. Its due to studies and mh wilds. As long as ow2 will be around, it will be my fall back game when im tired of everything else.

[@probablysteven1325]

I feel like the reason the main tank experience wasn’t as good was a lot to do with balance though- especially from the hp pools; rein for example only had that 550 hp pool which was what rein was at when he was good in ow1 and since more squishy heroes are now more tanky, they can put out more pressure for longer against him-not to mention because of how mobility and denial abilities have increased since launch ow2, rein just really struggles (I still loved him though-Rein OTP all the way baby)

[@invarkul7831]

Genji still having shit blade and 27 dmg even in 6v6 while support received buffs to their already overpowered role is what keeps me in rivals

[@DeadshotOW-l1q]

I would like to test some of the ow1 6v6 metas in ow2 or at least see a revamped version of it

[@wyvzrn]

well... log in on February 4th

[@DeadshotOW-l1q]

@ I will

[@thelifedragon2156]

gotta say, i did not have fun with 6v6. i main orisa. and im low silver. also, playing qp in low rank in general is not very fun. as i think there is a big skill gap between bronze and silver, even between low bronze and high broze is kinda staggering how much worse people are at the game. so with the looser matchmaking of qp and being low rank, i have alot of one sided games in qp, like alot alot. almost every game. crush or get crushed. so that plus me maining orisia, i did not have alot of fun in 6v6. i mostly just raged out for like half an hour, then go do somthing else. comback the next day and rage some more

[@ninjapenguin303]

I noticed you have Nintendo music playing in the background, is Nintendo music just like free to use in the background of KZbin videos or streams? I’m asking cuz there isn’t any straight answer online and I’m a new twitch streamer

[@sspah6870]

Overall I think 6v6 was a lot better, even for main tanks. I've been a main tank player for ages, and the pressure/stress of solo tanking finally going away was all I wanted, really hoping for the switch to 6v6.

[@altrario]

Question: why cant we have 5v5 comp and 6v6 comp (apart from dividing the player base?) as a tank main i was initially a hardcore pro-6v6er but ive come to appreciate both modes for what they are 😊

[@JesseHallett]

Max-3-min-1 keeps going to triple support in my games, especially if things aren't going well. And I've never seen that work!

[@stottpie]

The loudest voices in the community were the most adhd, and barely even play ow anymore. I hope it stays 5v5.

[@TheDesertBlizzard]

Maybe give main tanks the ability to small damage boost or heal a small amount other players of their choice for the damage they take using mechanics similar to Zen or Brig. When Rein’s shield is down, he will be taking damage while dealing damage, then when the shield is up he could boost a 76 or Reaper, or heal/armor an off tank or Mercy. That might give some identity and agency you speak.

[@Nyxtia]

I just can't agree on the supp front. It used to be my main role (since early ow1) but I've gradually transitioned to dps. In 5v5 I'll still play some supp, but the 6v6 tests were absolutely abysmal for the supp role and I'm not sure how you had fun. The caut passive is so absurdly strong in 6v6 that the supp role is reduced to either a) your team is winning in the frontline and you can win even harder through aggro cd usage, damage, and light sustain, or b) your team is losing the frontline and there is nothing you can do because your gimped sustain with a perma-anti'd team is insufficient to stabilise and so you can never use your cds for aggro value or find time to do meaningful damage. Really the most miserable the role has ever felt to me, as someone who's enjoyed both formats at times.

[@gamkht]

Super agree ok the boops, removing the passive from tanks was a huge mistake

[@trollofduty007]

I'm not gonna lie, and this might be a hot take But I see a LOT of the community complain about the Season 9 changes, and sure, I scoffed when I first saw them, with how big the projectile hitboxes were, etc. especially in the context of the 6v6 test But I don't really mind them in the context of the 6v6 test Sure I'll grant you, I think maybe some other things should've been tweaked, damage numbers wise for it, but broadly speaking, I think it was an alright shakeup I know OW Classic is by no means a comparable state of the game to current Overwatch, but I found myself a little taken aback by just how fast you'd get utterly blitzed down I do think more heroes that rely on "Damage per second" attacks (Winston as a prime example) could've done with a touch more lethality being added to their stuff, but I certainly don't think it ruined the 6v6 test As Gavin Winter said (And you yourself echoed) I didn't expect them to revert ALL of the projectile size increases, damage increases given as a result of Season 9, cause the sheer list of changes they'd have to make to bring it down to that level would be, in itself, insane. Reverting characters to their old values, trying to find places for the new heroes, etc. That's at least the lens I'm coming at it from, it still felt like Overwatch to me, the Overwatch I fell in love with, and it got a lot more of my friends playing tank, whom were utterly resistant to playing tank in 5v5 (Or would only queue tank in 5v5 cause they didn't want to leave me as the Tank every game) I also love being able to off tank / generally having a friend shouldering the tanking burden makes it way less stressful) Of course I VASTLY preferred the 2-2-2 test to the Min 1 Max 3, but I would take Min 1 Max 3 over 5v5 as it exists right now.

[@bob_bigfoot]

2:25 Spilo thinks he is an Overwatch Hero and his ult has something to do with notes ^ (not sure if that joke is funny, sorry if not) Good video as always :)

[@ubacow7109]

The issue with 6v6 is going to be tanks being a resource drain. Two tanks is objectively worse and now that tanks are so powerful and healers being so weak now youre going to run into worse resource drain

[@gamist8166]

Supports aren't "so weak" I promise

[@ubacow7109]

@@gamist8166 yes they are, its much lower statted than OW1, thats why Goats worked OW1

[@FancyDakota]

BREAKING: OW2 CHANGES TO OW1 HEROES MESSES WITH THE INTEGRITY OF OW2 6V6! SHOCKING! Remember when they went to 2-2-2? It was to ease the balance. To make it easier. Remember when they went to 1-2-2 and fixed none of the problems OW1 had AND introduced new ones? Remember when everyone thought Season 9 was good, and now it's an insanely divisive discussion and overall made the game way less punishing? Amazing job, Overwatch.

[@shanonfrancis5071]

I'm genuinely hoping that overwatch brings back 6v6 so that I can return from rivals. Rivals is silly fun but doesn't scratch the overwatch 1 itch although it does come closer than any other game. (while still maintaining 5v5 for those that prefer it because I don't want to alienate anyone. Maybe atleast an arcade mode)

[@Michpo]

Pepper is officially a rein main, its confirmed

[@peterwake5265]

5v5 was forced on us without a single test. By the time it was play-tested in any meaningful way, it was already a fait accompli. They drove off the tank players, they drove off the original support players, and many dps switched to support to get a stronger role. Unsurprisingly, changing the rules doesn’t magically make all those lost players come back. Most of those people that quit in disillusionment over their role being wrecked or removed, or the outright lies and failure of PvE, probably didn’t even know the test was on - but if they did, why would they come back to a company that lied to their faces then bait-and-switched away a game they’d played for years? Sure, there are reasons - these things weren’t done with malice - mistakes were made, and the different factions in the company were pulling in different directions, but still … those things happened. I prefer OW to Rivals, even 5v5; I’m never going to enjoy a third-person shooter - for others that isn’t a concern and Rivals IP is very powerful, they can bring in players OW could never attract. OW needs to quit this “oh we did well last year” corporate babble, stop crowing about achievements that weren’t achievements, and bring back the thing that *really* brought players into the game: characters and the promise of a story. Rivals has shown us that your gameplay can be all over the place and it barely even matters if people are interested in the dream of the game. That said, I can’t imagine sticking with OW if 6v6 isn’t put at least on the same footing as 5v5, because the 5v5 game is miserable most of the time.

[@monki9941]

I want 6v6 so they can make tanks that don't have the "press key to not die" abilities. Give us some variety

[@michaelpurdon7032]

I'm just glad we'll be moving on from it in any serious way tbh

[@nash3timemvp]

Blizzard are in a tough spot, most people who wanted 6v6 moved over to Marvel Rivals and couldn't care less about the 6v6 test. Do they push forward with 6v6 that nobody seemed to cared about at this point or stick with 5v5, a format nobody asked for.

[@fpsman01]

I don't think the min max format of 6v6 works. I feel it's harder to have 3 dps and 1 support or tank work fairly well. Yes three tanks can feel overall fine I think, but I feel like going more structured or even more loose is better. I think it would help plenty though if people actually wanted to play tank over purely dps. Though it's only my thoughts and I've been playing less since min 1 max 3 has been in game for this limited time.