Owen Jones meets Yanis Varoufakis | 'Europe is staring into the abyss'

Former Greek finance minister Yanis Varoufakis tells me he would love to give Brussels a shock - but a Brexit vote to leave the EU in the UK’s refrendum in June would lead to the disintegration of the European Union and a return to the xenophobia, racism and ultra-nationalism of the 1930s. He also argues that it could also lead to Boris Johnson becoming prime minister.
We also chatted about his 'erratic Marxism', whether capitalism will eat democracy, his thoughts about the European Union's treatment of Greece, his decision to resign from the Syriza government, his relationship with Alexis Tsipras and DiEM25, Yanis Varoufakis's attempt to reform the European Union.
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[@MrLenzi1]

“Brexit means you’re going to end up with Boris Johnson in 10 Downing Street” This man predicted it years ago...

[@A95690]

Reality is soO much worse

[@antony558]

They laughed then, we cry now

[@MrMaltasar]

what an insanely intelligent man.

[@michaelpaulsmith4619]

Such an intelligent and articulate man, speaking in what may be his second or third language, and so warm and engaging at the same time. I agree with just about everything he says and I hope (probably forlornly) that he might stand as an MP in this country. It's hard to imagine any UK politicians with his intellectual mettle. Thank you again, Owen,

[@normankeena]

Yanis Varoufakis has australian citizenship and is involved with diem25.org www.yanisvaroufakis.eu

[@Confucius_76]

I really need to learn another language!

[@randybarnes1460]

What an orator!

[@nathandrake5544]

I'm straight but I think Yanis's Greek accent is sexy as hell

[@mmlas8683]

Owen definitely does haha.

[@maddyblack5814]

+Nathan Drake YANIS IS Awesome, omg totally even though have no idea wtf he is talking about!!!!! lol he came to the nyc library and he was almost as cool as Post Malone

[@descartesdonkey4291]

you're just lacking identity that's all

[@misscelestine9527]

Agreed

[@SuperSetright]

''I'm straight but I think Yanis's Greek accent is sexy as hell'' Are you sure......you're straight? LOL

[@lewiscpowell]

Yanis predicted Boris Johnson 3 years ago.

[@OHHnoYOUdidntMAN]

I know right!

[@antonpetrovichkoch]

Watching in 2019 that bit when he says "If Brexit wins you will end up with Boris in Downing Street"... :'(

[@thepaperclipguy]

gagging for a Dennis Skinner interview

[@irapplefritter]

+ThePaperclipGuy Yes plz

[@joshuavaughan8510]

Yanis is the boss

[@pushingpolygons]

I love Yanis' reading of Marx.

[@StarWarrior008]

We want full interview !!!

[@aaa15498]

+StarWarrior008 YES

[@XanderLewisMusic]

It's a bit off-topic, but Yanis' ability to communicate in English is really incredible, in fact easily rivalling many native speakers. Impressive.

[@p1nm0re]

I learned so much from this interview - thank you.

[@mick947]

Just found this interview after reading 'Adults in the room' by Janis. listening to you two is like breathing fresh air. There is hope after all.

[@fact1376]

There's hope and reason with Varoufakis and Sanders and others. People need to wake up and rise up.

[@christopherwilkinson326]

Two great well spoken guys... who I understand completely without smoke & mirrors economic boulderdash.

[@user-eo8jx7jq4u]

As we can't trust our MP's and our media, what makes you think that I'm going to listen to one word of what you ever say? You've proved time and time again that you're not on the public's side, so we're making our own way from now on, thank you very much Owen!

[@Yanni75]

Great interview. Very insightful.

[@robertgreen5123]

How brilliantly and poetically Mr Varoufakis speaks. He's the kind of finance minister the UK doesn't deserve.

[@epiphany55]

If you're a Remainer, Yanis is the man to have on your side (and I say this as a Brexiter). Eloquent and critical of the EU in every way it should be criticised (ironically more articulate in his criticism than many Brexiters). Yanis brings nuance and intelligent challenge to the debate and that's what I find most fascinating in these times of black and white generalisations and caricatures. I see him as a force for good in Europe, and I hope his reformist ambitions are realised.

[@HdeHansson]

Quite ironic that the ad that popped in my screen at the beginning of the video was "Vote Leave"

[@TheJaynethepayne]

+Sara Hansson Got the same add just now.

[@richardrobertson8076]

Yanis Varoufakis is awesome.

[@EZRAJESUS]

Love the bit at 13:19 when Owen leans his head back and asks whether Varoufakis is optimistic.

[@lesterheady5804]

Owen, as usual. an absolutely superlative interview! Please, please please Owen, can you arrange an interview with The Beast of Bolsover, the redoutable Dennis Skinner! A particular hero of mine. Oh how cruel it is that a discussion with Tony Benn is now, sadly, impossible! Love and Peace xxxxxx

[@ringledonglevanderbang3887]

If the EU can so constrict Greece's democratic rights and sovereign power, the fact that it actually has done so.. why do we wish to remain a part of it. I'm on the fence, I can see reasons for staying and reason's for leaving but my biggest reason for wanting to leave is lack of democratic accountability. We lack it already now in our own parliament. Our government is in a 5 year syphoning of public assets and resources enabled by a partisan media. The EU seems to be a cabal of big business and banks. TTip is terrifyingly undemocratic. I'm doubting the EU will change for the good.

[@michaelgilday]

Yanis Varoufakis might like to give Brussels a shock and he had his opportunity and failed. I think though he is correct in his analysis of the EU and that it is on a knife edge and Brexit would tip the balance. Only where I don't agree is that we should vote to stay and try and change things from being part of it. The EU is broken, it is the lack of democratic accountability that has brought the opportunity for this referendum. Brexit is the only solution to break the EU contempt for the populous of Europe and force a meltdown. Once the EU folds and we revert back to nation states, then and only then can we create a new and more democratic alternative.

[@mammamamma3640]

Intelligent, smart man. I like listening to this intellect.

[@Tworonnies1]

He is a brilliant mind but unfortunately the European Union is structurally unreformable.

[@adampowell5376]

I think that Yanis is very impressive. I have joined Di EM 25 and I hope that it will restore democracy in Europe.

[@JoeyXII]

Why do people still try to silence the immigration debate by shouting racist and xenophobic, immigration in controlled numbers is a great thing and brings great value to our society, open door mass immigration of 300,000 net a year, does not.

[@jamesmeow3039]

+JoeyXII I love the fact that he thinks the National Socialists and Fascists were right wing, Fascism has and always will be just a toothpick away from communism and Marxism, just replace race with wealth and you will probably get the same thing.

[@Gooner184]

+James Meow You go tell a racist that you think they're leftwing, see how they respond. :P

[@Kropotkin2000]

+James Meow National "Socialists" and Fascists were right-wing. You love this fact. That fact is is that it's a fact. Right-wing, in its classical political meaning, is an adherence to social hierarchy and traditional forms of power. It is about domination and authority with "betters" and elites with politcal power, and the masses subordinate to them. This is why the right-wing were monarchists, traditionalists, and in the post-monarchist era -- fascists. You are nearly correct on one point. Communism, in the form the Bolsheviks created, was also authoritarian and hierarchical -- making it close to right-wing fascist ideology. Actual communism is a stateless and egalitarian society with a moneyless gift economy.

[@jnicolson865]

+James Meow So what you're saying is that Marxism and fascism are the same EXCEPT for being totally different and fundamentally opposed?

[@jnicolson865]

+Kropotkin2000 "Communism, in the form the Bolsheviks created, was also authoritarian and hierarchical -- making it close to right-wing fascist ideology." The Bolsheviks and the state that they established really need to be understood in their historical context: the relative economic and political backwardness of Russia at that time; the catastrophe of World War 1; the almost total collapse of the economy; and a brutal civil war combined with multiple foreign interventions. A lot of what the Bolsheviks did was forced on them by necessity. Their biggest mistake was to treat those necessities as virtues, and the failure to rectify them in the fairly narrow window of opportunity between the end of the civil war and the consolidation of Stalinist control over the party and the state. Specifically what needed to be done was to bring internal democracy back to the party, and multi-party democracy back to the soviets, and thus to democratise the state. While simultaneously rebuilding and modernising the economy, improving living standards, and guarding against counter-revolution. That's a huge task under any circumstances, and virtually impossible given the defeat of the revolution elsewhere, particularly in Germany. It's also important to acknowledge that there were major political differences within the early Bolshevik leadership. Hence why Stalin had most of them exiled, imprisoned, or killed.

[@ellobo4290]

God I wish interviews like this one and especially the one with Dan Hannan were posted in full length.

[@LRC92]

Owen, interview Noam Chomsky!

[@lesleyegg]

Noam Chomsky has such a boring voice, he puts me to sleep inside a minute.

[@cinemarxism]

+lesleyegg that is true but he is one of the most knowledgeable and well respected people in the world. I think it would be quite hard to get him on though

[@ladymmm100]

+LRC And Chris Hedges!!

[@richardrobertson8076]

+lesleyegg Couldn't agree with you more. Chomsky is deeply clever, but has the worst voice for a public philosopher. Another one is John Grey - his ideas are fascinating on paper - but I can't listen to him speak for more than 30 seconds without wanting to punch the radio.

[@CapsLock959]

+lesleyegg pay attention to what he's saying, not how he's saying it.

[@amancalledjim5382]

after watching this how can anyone not be a Brexiteer ffs. listen to this man explain how they crushed Greece.

[@davesmith7528]

The 'Leave' campaign claims that "we do not control our borders" yet ignores the open border between the Rebublic and the North of Ireland which in the event of Brexit will become an open border between the UK and the EU. They have a simple choice; either they must drop this pretence about border control or commit to sealing this border in Ulster contrary to the wishes of the government and people either side of it. Why have they never been robustly challenged on this issue?

[@thecringesaltawardcompany1818]

2:16 "If Brexit wins you're going to get Boris Johnson in 10 Downing Street". What a prediction

[@mrjoshua1414]

One of the most significant and politically relevant interviews I've ever watched!

[@antoniomolina9107]

Thank you for adding high-quality subtitles. For once I could understand 100% of the interview. When he talks about meetings with the Troika, I feel ashamed of the role played by politicians of southern Europe during the negotiations.

[@Govanmauler]

Erratic Marxism describes my economic politics pretty well too. I'd always feared I was just lacking in moral fibre, now it turns out I'm actually getting right. Thanks Yanis

[@Canonboy0]

Until Jordan Peterson enters the debate. Then you all look stupid.

[@rationalmartian]

Now THAT all depends on what exactly is being discussed. Whenever he starts appealing to old superstitious myths, and attempting to stretch it further than merely analogising and identifying tropes and characters, he loses me entirely. In such cases he sounds very similar to a disingenuous, religious apologists, with bald assertion, appeals to emotion and consequences and he will obfuscate, become obtuse and pretty much use every sophist trick in the book to NOT have to actually explain or even admit what he actually believes. I find this aspect to be very disappointing for an academic supposedly appealing to science, logic and rationality. I cannot make up my mind why. Does he really actually believe the bible and the preposterous stories contained within, but is reticent to actually come out and frankly and honestly state it. Or is he merely using it as a vehicle with which to appeal to the indoctrinated and feels if he admits it is merely an old book that he is using and cherry picking examples to use as teaching aids, he could well lose that large portion of his audience. Or are there alternatives I am not thinking of?

[@jaredgarbo3679]

@@Canonboy0 Jordan Peterson doesn't understand Marxism.

[@marktucker4457]

​@@jaredgarbo3679 Because he doesn't agree with it? That's a very arrogant statement...

[@lalunasola9914]

it'd be really nice if we can see the video with subtitels. there're lot of things i'm loosing with out them...pleaseee

[@adamsharpe9452]

A truly fascinating chat indeed. Would love to see the full interview. Thanks Owen!

[@AdamSich]

Sorry about the phone footage at the start everyone. We didn't have time to do an intro and outro at the time as there was an event straight after the interview.

[@18cwood]

What an excellent interview Owen thank you. You used the word formidable when describing Yanis Varoufakis and I think that's spot on. He certainly gives hope that change can happen within the EU.

[@maxomatosis_]

Great interview Owen, fascinating guy.

[@cityzenjane2]

great interviews owen!

[@TheDreadfulCurtain]

Wow. I think i am in love. Yannis is so eloquent and I thoroughly enjoyed hearing him speak. Thank You. He is sexycool.

[@87licorice]

So he thinks that the EU is the preeminent embodiment of esoteric corruption and authoritative economic elitism in European society, yet he is going to great lengths to advocate against the prospect of its dissolution, thats quite contradictory logic.

[@killpowernotpeople]

Well he did make sure to begin with a disclaimer about his inconsistency

[@captainreagar]

"You can rejoice as much as you like about the fact that I am no longer finance minister, not even in Parliament. But you did not ‘get rid’ of me. I am alive and kicking politically, as people in Italy remind me when I walk the streets of your beautiful country. No, what you got rid of, by participating in that dastardly coup against Alexis Tsipras and Greek democracy last July, was your own integrity as a European democrat. Possibly your soul too. Thankfully this is not irreversible. But you need to make serious amends. I cannot wait to see you return to the ranks of Europe’s democrats."

[@Stoatfacelanust]

Great, great interview as usual!!

[@tatixss]

Douglas Murray next, let's hear both sides of the argument on Brexit!

[@Sr68720]

fuck him he an extremist

[@jayd4ever]

+John he is a liberal democrat

[@OwenJonesTalks]

+John We already did Dan Hannan - did you see that?

[@tatixss]

+Owen Jones Yes I enjoyed it very much! I think this would be as interesting.

[@shadowofmyfutureself]

+Owen Jones Daniel Hannan. Ugh dear. I'll have to search that out. Eloquent and poetic no doubt

[@waltermatthys8919]

very good. Thanks

[@PhotographyAdventure]

Awesome interview mate.

[@JimGardner]

Fantastic!

[@morganadundee7461]

As Soon as This Guy Says He Has No Borders Around His Own Property Then Maybe I Would Listen to What He Has To Say!!! Brexit Rules!!!

[@pop-n-rock]

we have many immigrants in Greece you know!!

[@nemesiosanda9635]

Great interview

[@ReadingWhileFemale]

Thank you for the fascinating interview. I've been trying to follow the Brexit debate as best I can, and I appreciate his clear explanations and examples of the fundamentally undemocratic nature of the EU. I have heard compelling arguments from both sides of the Brexit campaign regarding the proper response to that problem, but his may be the most compelling so far. I'm somewhat glad I don't live in Britain and therefore don't actually have to make a decision.

[@AD-ok8ee]

Great interview, thank you once again.

[@nicklee8112]

Hi Owen, would you do an interview with someone advocating the UK to leave the EU from a left, anti-racist perspective?

[@OwenJonesTalks]

+Nick Lee Can certainly try... anyone in particular you'd like to hear from?

[@09jamieboro]

+Owen Jones Kate Hoey of labour maybe?

[@jawadc97]

+Owen Jones George Galloway

[@lewiso1000]

+Owen Jones Dennis Skinner

[@henrybamford5253]

+Nick Lee Tariq Ali is another one. Voting to leave for "good, socialist reasons" as he put it.

[@chrisbhoy82]

I would love to see the full, unedited video of this discussion.

[@pimwiersinga8822]

Great interview, with Yanis Varoufakis. Comrade Owen Jones

[@MrKalvinC]

Until today your interviews with Myrai and Jess were my real favourites. This absolutely surprised that by a massive margin. Wow. I said the same wow when he said what the memorandum of understanding to the loan was. Wow. I loath the EU because I see them as doing that to everyone, but fully understand the fear of the far right because they do have the hook into those that want rid of the EU. It is damaged more by the fact that the regressive left won't even talk about it for fear of being associated with UKIP. I was at the Boris event in Manchester tonight - tories and UKIP getting on like a house on fire - no Labour anywhere. Seriously - you and me, we should meet and talk. I think I would surprise you - though of course you know I want to spend the rest of my life with you even though you are a leftie :)

[@garywhitley3854]

1000 times better than the one you did with Daniel Hannan. In fact I'm still really upset with you for not asking Hannan about his comments on Fox News saying our NHS makes people sicker. The guy is an absolute disgrace...

[@Poetic_Justice1962]

Terrific interview.

[@sebastianlaws]

Amazing interview !

[@ryanfraser167]

Wow what a accurate prediction re. Boris Johnson....

[@AstralFrost]

Fantastic.

[@gionncaomhinmorpheagh4791]

A fascinating interview with a man who really knows what he's talking about. Thanks for posting it. MsG

[@TrotskysBeard1917]

Well his 2016 prediction of Boris Johnson ending up in charge seems a bit far fetched, haha.

[@stevenhombrados1530]

Great interview Owen!!!

[@mklilley]

Hi Owen, another great interview, thanks. Would it be possible to get hold of a link to the specific text Yanis was referring to (referring to memorandum of understanding)

[@SimplyGimpy]

This year we could have a Prime Minister Boris Johnson, an American President Ted Cruz / Donnie Trump and a broken and shattered EU. Mummy, I don't want to play anymore. :(

[@Govanmauler]

+SimplyGimpy Ammo is cheap

[@6thi874]

+Govanmauler The word Turkey made my decision to vote Out much easier. Turkish EU? Opens the door to the ME flooding in.

[@TigerPrawn_]

Oh god that sounds horrific when you put it like that!

[@6thi874]

***** And we would have no control whatsoever. It would be like Washington DC ruling the USA. We lose all of our Sovereignty and ability to make laws. Turks and ME in EU? I'd rather have Russia.

[@lewisner]

In reality the chief spokesman for Remain, David Cameron, resigned immediately. His chancellor George Osborne who promised us a punishment budget was booted out by the new PM and is now busy making himself very rich. GDP growth has exceeded forecasts even without Brexit, unemployment fell by 50,000 before Xmas and 32,000 a few weeks ago. Toyota is investing £240 million in one of its plants and James Dyson is spending £1.5 billion on a new science facility in Wiltshire. Mark Carney has admitted that the Bank Of England got it completely wrong and none of the American banks, who contributed half a million each to the Remain campaign, have moved staff as they said they would.

[@MrJklfc]

Putting together hope and reason. Okay. Hope: Not enough hope in nation states to want to see the end of the European project which ultimately ruined Greece. It could be replaced by something better? Reason: EU states have less decision making rights than colonies in the British Empire, and the grand plan is to live stream negotiations? Hardly formidable intellect.

[@AdamSich]

+Josh Knight He did say it was just a first step.

[@JohnyBuzzkillKidd]

+Josh Knight Sounds like an arguement to bring back the empire

[@matteoj226]

This man is incredible. Is there any chance he's a British citizen - could he somehow join the British opposition?

[@spider66isaac]

Does anyone have a link to the memorandum?

[@christophermillerfagan1251]

Is it possible to get a transcript anywhere? In one document.

[@MathQOfQ]

Could you put a link to the document that Mr Varoufakis refers to around 12 mins into the interview?

[@iamsmartacus]

+Mathew S I don't know if they will let me link to it, but I will try. Here is a version of the Greek MoU that Yanis annotated himself to "translate" various objectionable passages as he understands them: varoufakis.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/mou-annotated-by-yv.pdf

[@DavidGriggsProfile]

Great interview. You need a bigger office tho, I think the photo booth might prove a little small :)

[@PhillipRottingham]

Make a video about the London Mayoral Election please.

[@kevinhorgan2770]

PhillipRottingham Tell me one Marxist who isn’t a millionaire in parliament

[@Noseypoke-mr7th]

Now that would be good........(with a bit about mr Soros writing cheques)

[@homolgus1]

this deserves a much wider audience come on BBC

[@louis4815]

the advert before this video was by vote leave. loool

[@alastairmiller7838]

Owen, thankyou for these videos I really enjoy them. I have a question though, do you have any planes to do an interview with Noam Chomsky? I would love to see that! Keep it up mate, great work!

[@Dagon368]

interesting. However, I tried finding those two passages he claimed in the memorandum between the ECB and Greece, and as far as I can tell they don't exist? Not in that wording, anyway.

[@antony558]

This mans very quick analysis of Marx was amazing

[@Goracykabanos]

He is tremendously articulate!

[@issywelsby6698]

I know this type of comment must be annoying but FULL INTERVIEW PRETTY PLEASE would love to see your talk with Yanis in more detail Owen, fab job as always xx

[@neilwilson5785]

Are these meeting livetstreamed yet, in June 2017? We need it.

[@rightwithya1]

It's not just extreme right wing Xenophobic's who want democracy and freedom Yanis !

[@NeutronGaming1]

I position myself in the centre of the political spectrum and am surprised at how much I agree with this Far-left politician, he's incredible!!

[@thisaccountisdead9060]

Thank you to all involved. I think Yanis should've had a hand in writing the script for Rocky V - would've given the saga more a sense of completeness - whereas instead we got what we did... a sign of the time it was made maybe?* - something to watch out for there. Anyway :P *edit; by that I mean Rocky V is basically about Boris Johnson of course.

[@jamess-shaw5464]

Zizek! Owen! Zizek!

[@penaltygallery]

+James S-Shaw i second this request

[@Daybed4448]

+James S-Shaw I third this request. He's coming to London later this April to talk about his new book at the LSE; you may be able to catch him then!

[@MrUnmutual]

+James S-Shaw Concur, excellent.

[@anttonijamesnumminen8576]

Hey Owen! Where do you get your shirts from?

[@TheCholounico123]

Can you activate subtitles pls?

[@AdamSich]

+javi Lopez I've transcribed it.,.. just lining them up now. Come back in half an hour?

[@OwenJonesTalks]

+javi Lopez That's done now.

[@lesleyegg]

+Owen Jones Very helpful as YV is so articulate you need to read as well as listen.

[@jojoman24]

"First of all, if you vote to leave the EU you will end up with Boris Johnson in 10 Downing Street" This man knows.

[@GingerJoberton]

A big problem with livestreaming meetings is the media would still spin results out of context. I think it's a good idea though

[@nicklee8112]

+Owen Jones Alex Callinicos perhaps? has a good article in the isj- "the internationalist case against the European Union".

[@willlovell7289]

Thanks Owen! Melanie Phillips and Milo Yiannopoulos next please!

[@PeppyOoze]

A Zizek interview would be cool, 30+ minutes of chat though.

[@p4712]

I had always thought that reporters proefessionally remained neutral when interviewing. Cringing at the name of Boris Johnson is not just unprofessional but childish. Unworthy of someone who purports to be a Guardian journalist.

[@marktaylor6491]

Were he not to have cringed at the thought of Boris in Number 10, then his pulse would have needed checking. It's called being human.

[@TriggeredPeasoup]

Owen you should interview Slavoy Zizek next ;)

[@war2bird]

Good Interview. Yanis confirms why we must leave the EU, look how the Trokia dealt with him by refusing to negioate until he left the Greek Govt and they will use the same tactic against elected Government that does not toe the line. The British Left can still form alliances with Socialist Movements and Govt in Europe without being in the EU. The Rise of Fascism has taken on the form of the Trokia and ECB dictate policies on behalf of the Wealthy Elite regardless of the social and economic consequences to the rest of populations. The onging economic crisis is History repeating itself. War will follow just as before.

[@Generalscorpio]

I'd have to say the rise of the far right is one of the reasons I voted to leave. If it didn't happen now then the desire for it would only get stronger and we'd end up with a very right wing (more so than now) Tory government OR a massive UKIP presence in Parliament, being vaguely-right-of-centre I don't particularly want that. Once we're out of the EU UKIP's really a pointless entity, they've achieved their goal and they're likely to collapse.

[@patbateman2088]

I tried to fact check what Yanis said about the EU / Greece Memorandum of Understanding, I couldn't find those quotes. Could anyone else?