Oxford Debate: Should Europe Side With the U.S. on China?

ZURICH, June 26, 2023 - In the first LIVE ‘Oxford Debate,’ participants are debating whether Europe should side with the U.S. on China. Arguing for the motion are Rhodium Group Senior Advisor Noah Barkin and University of Zurich Senior Lecturer Simona Grano. Arguing against the motion are Philippe Le Corre, senior fellow at the Asia Society Policy Institute's Center for China Analysis; and Marina Rudyak, assistant professor at Heidelberg University. Asia Society Switzerland Executive Director Nico Luchsinger moderated the discussion. (1 hr., 4 min.)
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[@yuanshuan7099]

I am a Taiwanese, I never thought European will ever care about the future of Taiwan, actually most European don’t know where Taiwan is. Please don’t use Taiwan as an excuse to confront China.

[@hwf090909]

Mainlander here, you are right, the western evil politicians are trying hard to create a second battlefield like the Ukraine war in Taiwan. They make no hesitation of sacrificing Taiwan in detaining the development of China for the continuation of western hegemony.

[@kckong3]

are you fearful that taiwan will be the next ukraine? how do the folks in taiwan feel about the dpp's lean towards the war mongering US?

[@yliang1688]

The fact is that TAIWAN and CHINA are one nation >>>> CHINA. 🤩🤩🤩

[@user-xj7vu5cl4s]

你是我遇到的第一个用英文发表这种言论的台湾人，不管你的政治立场如何，我发自内心愿称呼你为同胞。

[@songasalimsaleh1035]

Mature way of thinking 🤔. You are absolutely phenomenal and philosophical in your reasoning

[@kahloongan9630]

Europe should side with peace , and not more war mongering

[@TomL13]

Calling for EU to decouple from the US is not allowed that's what the ccp wants, so thats CCP propaganda.

[@mikeboate208]

So back away from American warmongering ? "Rules based order"?

[@Time4Peace]

Absolutely! It's not US vs China. Europe should actively engage with both, for both must coexist or humanity will perish.

[@hootowl6354]

Do you think Putin wants peace? What about Xi? China is the nation threatening Taiwan. Taiwan had done nothing to China. Europe is siding with peace, because there is no peace when authoritarian governments go on the offensive. History is full of battles like this. Aggressors don't stop (we don't find peace) until they are stopped - and that means war.

[@Myanmartiger921]

Dog meat should be legal

[@aaronhteikk4487]

Interesting debate. But what a weird first speaker. When he described China, he was actually describing US ! China forcing other countries to live like China ? Have you forgotten about Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya,not to mention the US have 800 bases all over the world, spending more than it earns and having the greatest national debt, etc. China has one base on the Horn of Africa to protect its trade route through the Suez Canal.

[@The1Manager]

You also have to include China private armies that are arranged around around the world.

[@pedropicapiedra1429]

Correct. And one fool speaker was arguing that the US is a democracy! Yeah, maybe, but it's not VERY democratic. Not when the 1% have most of the wealth and power and the 99% have little influence on anything. Shuffling the deck chairs every 4-8 years in highly contentious elections in which the influence of the rich over the media decides the outcome and both options (Dems?Reps) are extremely corrupt, does NOT make a democracy. And the US has repeatedly overthrown democracies all over the world, simply because it was in their economic or perceived strategic interest to do so. The US has zero desire to promote democracy, human rights or peace. It merely wishes to ensure the continuation of its own evil empire. Countries that wish to promote freedom, peace and cooperation should not choose one evil empire over another. We should choose a third, independent way, which means standing up to US bullying as well as any other bully.

[@top36560]

​@@The1Manageryou mean "C"olorful "I"nvestment "A"ssociation ?

[@joellis5915]

@@The1Manager ​ @The1Manager Lier, Liar's pants catch fire. The US/UK/Europe: We Lie, We Cheat, We steal. Most of All, We Bomb everywhere and anywhere.

[@dtphuesura]

Chinese people are not even trusting their CCP leaders. How do you expect others to trust China? No way.. Look at the CCP's dealing with their own people..if we live in China, will experience the hard reality... Has no hope for China under communist party.. May the dictator's reign ends asap!

[@tinatang1]

China has stated repeatedly that she prefers reunification with Taiwan in a peaceful way. In fact the CPC sets the reunification at 1949 However, the US wants to provoke a conflict with China by inciting the Taiwanese to declare independence. If the US backs off, China will never blockade or invade Taiwan. China is content to maintain the staus quo.

[@michaelwang6125]

O____o are you sure you are not talking about the current Xi's China and not the Y2K China? China is content to maintain the status quo. = ???? where is the official statement and is that within the past 10 years. It's hard to believe some who can access free information still believe in Beijing's propaganda like this, especially after Putin's invasion. O___o do you also support Putin's action because Ukraine which is moving towards EU is threatening Moscow? Ps. While some can support a peaceful unification; Beijing's credibility had fallen to the point that caused most of the Taiwanese to not support it. Namely~ the promise of self autonomy-etc was promised to Hong Kong (50 years) and Tibet and we all witness how promises/treaties were broken by Xi's administration.

[@michaelwang6125]

ps. like the time when China says it promises it won't militarize those islands to US's president? Ops another promise broken so what's a few more gonna do. O___o I don't think any nation would want to trust their potential invader by dropping their guard. Cause when there are weaknesses and/or openings.... it might just strike like Putin did. Look at the Burma's military coup for example too (which was being armed by Beijing's PLA and they are even planning to offer Burma's military coup leadership -submarine- ) T___T

[@hootowl6354]

Bull. Are you naive? Why do you think Xi is flying fighter jets around Taiwan? Does that look peaceful?

[@edwardchen9920]

@@hootowl6354 you are naive. since the mainland has capability to send fighter jets around Taiwan, why didn't it actually attack Taiwan? That is warning to some kids on island: Don't be stupid and cherish the peace across the Taiwan Strait.

[@tinatang1]

@@hootowl6354 If China appears aggressive itviscin reaxtion tovUS fighter jets and warships patrolling the Taiwan Straits. Would the US not try to chase away Chinese jets and carriers and warships patrolling between Cuba and her coast? If the US desist in threatening China's sovreignty, China will never "invade" Taiwan, which the world recognises as a province of the PRC. BTW Cuba is a soveriegn state, unlike Taiwan!

[@lguosantafe]

The debate is China bad and needs to be contained VS China bad but we have to deal with it. Where is the “I don’t think China is bad?” Viewpoint?

[@nizicike759]

Not bombing Iraq and Afghan together with US is unacceptable

[@ARUchannel1]

this media outlet is biased against china

[@tedchandran]

Jai Hinduja. Europe is already a Vassal of US and is now on course to self-destruction without cheap Russian energy.

[@NorCalMoDo]

You must be from somewhere not under the influence of the US.

[@tsengliu]

Doesn’t exist in the west alas, or too few - there are cultural and racial undertones in all human thinking and activity like it or not alas…

[@ronaldphoong]

Colonial mindset is the problem that Europeans see in themselves.

[@user-ed9so2rb4k]

Of the 30 plus EU nations, only a handful were powerful enough to become colonists and those smaller nations are mere used to fight the wars created by the few powers. Now they feel they could be part of the "colonial powers" threatening the non-West?

[@hootowl6354]

So, China taking Taiwan would be different from that mindset?

[@ronaldphoong]

@@hootowl6354 Taiwan is province of China. Do you understand the meaning of colonial mindset?

[@m.x.]

Saying "Europeans" as if they all were part of the same nation is a very ignorant generalisation. Every single European country has its own history, culture, idiosyncrasy, way of thinking, etc. For instance, the Spanish nation has absolutely nothing to do with France, Germany or UK nations. Spain is not responsible for the despicable imperialistic actions of the French, Anglo-Saxons or Germans.

[@human8454]

​@@m.x.europeans are same from north to south.

[@louises9911]

If Europeans think it is not proper for China to send its fight jets to fly very close to Taiwan airspace, why they remain silence when US fight jets and nuclear submarines are “traveling” along China coastline constantly?

[@MeiinUK]

Because Europeans are naive..even when so called Chinese investors enter into Scandinavian countries and build mega lasers that could shoot down planes. They were still welcomed. So are they really hostile ? Did most Europeans know or realises that these investors can be seen as an enemy?..... Who would let others walk into their home turf and then to use that piece of military equipment to kill themselves ? Wolf in sheep clothing ? Trust is what not being triggered here.... Why are Chinese money buying up all ports and access within Europe then ? To cut off the ports which moves food and resources ? And you don't see that as hostile ??... Europeans to not have to be good to china. At all. It allows so many Chinese to use fake money to buy up properties affecting European economic stability etc. Only china thinks that it is ok to sell junk things at a hyped price point. And that the world keep serving them. Inequality in regions and everything else is what is China issue is... Nobody uwes or desire what prc dies. And they want to be a single power despite Chinese history shows that there was never a single china. The USA have done well to support the PRC .. that is.. a small set of people to be running the country and to have this perception as such and to continue to give them more ropes to hang others with.

[@rockqhshi]

Agree, these guys are biased, ugly and even evil.

[@RichardBrett899]

I am still having a very difficult time in understanding when did China start threatening the US and Europe? When did America or Europe see a Chinese warship traversing through its territorial water strait, or a Chinese warplane flying in its sky? I don't know how much truth is the Uyghurs' suppression in Xinjiang, or is it just a rhetoric? But what I do know is the US' constant provacation in the Taiwan strait by sending its warship and fighter jets into the South China Sea. The US has been selling arms to Taiwan, which is a province of China. Furthermore, history shows through and through that China had never invaded or instigated wars in any countries.

[@ngkeam9491]

@rick- now situation deteriorates, they curse China as an aggressor, claiming maritime territories as his, arbitrarily!

[@charlietseng7774]

Defending China in an argument demanding deep understanding of Chinese culture, history, confucianism, etc. So it's kind of unfair if the defenders hold totally western mindset but blabla. A scholar from Singapore (Mr.Kishore) may do this job far better.

[@gohmengtong5850]

Agree but why mr Kishore has open mind and different perspective that is healthy for mankind. Interest for mass mankind is important. This motion of debate (yet to listen the whole video) will be better to embrace cooperation, co existence co prosperity co respect for win win position. Amen om mani Padme hung

[@michaelwang6125]

Its unfortunately the current governing system in mainland China is anything but that of the original Confucianism which placed value on human righteousness and fairness;; unless its blabla (says one thing but does another*) *China's international reputation even in a neutral nation wasn't as bad as it is now, even during the trade war. Breaking too many promises did damage its own credibility and why there is a decline in trust in numerous fields. Just keep in mind that communism didn't enter China til the 1900s which only represents 1/30 of the overall history of China itself... ugh the cultural revolution did more damage to China's historic history & even culture within 3 years than any other major event after WW. It is kind of bizzer in my eye to see it's showing numerous signs of repeating a similar mistake AGAIN... ** **History is important so people don't repeat past mistakes... I had wondered if those around the leadership is either being really bad to set up the leadership to fall by repeating a major mistake Or was history taught differently to them that the top brass assumed it was a blessing that helped brought prosperity to China... without knowing how many millions of lives were lost. Which do you think is the cause or is there a 3rd option?

[@gohmengtong5850]

@@michaelwang6125 yes, what you say is record of history. A name was given eg Confucianism or communism or democracy etc to suit or facilitate changing event. Most important is to improve vision or tasks set out then honourably within constraints evolving. Don’t forget weakness of humans is a constraint. Lessons of past history can be overlooked。Let future history be the judge. No empire alliance etc can last forever. It will decline after peak. And perhaps restart the cycle. Amen om mani Padme hung

[@AZ-hj8ym]

These are just programmes that makes people think its legit to critisize China when it is pure anti China propaganda. Grown up have I

[@hongli9358]

There is no authentic Chinese culture in commie land after 74 years. Defending China is different from defending commies who always hiding behind the mainland Chinese after taking them hostage. No matter what we discuss regarding mainland China, we have to distinct the commies from the hostage mainland Chinese and from China as a country and as a culture and civilization. No one will invade mainland China even during his weakest time pre-Deng era, no one will invade Russia either even in the 1990s when Russia was in the weakest time. China and Russia will always be there, as a civilization and as a nation. Rulers (whether democratically elected and self appointed dictators) come and go countries stand.

[@adamc2378]

Where was this talk of derisking when the US invaded Iraq and Afghanistan? When the US led the bombing and destabilization of Syria and Libya, which some European nations participated in? Or when the US supplied Israel and Saudi Arabia with weapons to commit war crimes in Palestine and Yemen?

[@JDAbelRN]

War crimes textbook writing by Chinese 🇨🇳 now.

[@maxdc988]

Instead of siding with US or China, Europe should side with their conscience. Do the right thing as they say.

[@robrosea4373]

This motion should also be about wether EU should side with peace or war.

[@ginkotree7157]

The US and all Europe countries recognize the one China policy. Taiwan is a province of China. If China wants to reunite the country, why the US and Europe use to term that China wants to invade Taiwan? East and West Germany wanted to be reunited, why can China not be reunited?

[@ammlu3556]

If Taiwan wants independence then china should accept it.

[@defaultname9766]

Hawaii , catanonia indepenant

[@koruptorbesar9141]

This is geopolitics. There is no logical or moral argument when it comes to this. Basically it is anarchy, the strong one rules. The weak ones, bend the knees, obey and follow or bear the consequences. It is not different to gangster fight. There is simply no justice, no fairness, simply attack, attack and attack until you win. The more you try to reason the more frustrating you are.

[@hkfoo3333]

@@ammlu3556 were you born yesterday with such a kiddy statement.

[@actionong]

Republic of China does not want independence. It has been a sovereign nation since 1912. Tsai is not the president of Taiwan. She is president of the Republic of China. Did the Republic of China give up its territorial claims?

[@ivanvolf7570]

Speaker No.3: What is this obsession wit Taiwan? Why don't you obsess with Afghanistan? Pakistan? Indian casting system and the poverty of India? How about Palestine? Syria, Iraq, Iran, Yemen? How about poverty Europe created in Africa by occupation for last 400 years? Do you take insanity classes at Oxford?

[@ganboonmeng5370]

When Scotland vote for independence...or when the DPP booted out...I like to hear this debate repeated.

[@learning2800]

Excellent comment 😂😂😂, she is a good example of human trash

[@margarethawinarto3931]

They are all obsessed with China. Hatred kills sanity.

[@NorCalMoDo]

American needs Taiwan to contain China

[@NorCalMoDo]

US also needs Australia, India, Japan, Korea , and The Philipines to contain China. Worse, US is dragging Europe (NATO) to Aisa to contain China. ALL THIS means the US is NOT capable to do it alone. What a sad reality!

[@tinatang1]

What right does the US have to interfere with the internal affairs of other sovereign countries like China and Russia. After all, even Europe observes the One China policy, seeing Taiwan as a province of China. As for the Xinjiang issue - all the humam rights claims originate with Adrain Zenze and he admits that his claims are based on his own invention.

[@janetmalcolm3403]

I live in Taiwan. I have been very westernized since I grew up in the Philippines. I enjoy democracy very much and wouldn't want to lose my basic freedom. However, with the unfolding events recently, I really condemn US and NATO for provoking Putin to attack Ukraine. The power struggle is very much visible. G7 is again bullying China in the same fashion they did during the Opium Wars and World War 2. We cannot afford to have a nuclear war. The tension in Ukraine is already enough. Why is Taiwan being treated like another Ukraine? We don't need you to sell weapons of mass destruction and set up 9 US military bases in Northern Philippines to defend or protect Taiwan. Stay far far away from Asia Pacific. We don't want bloodshed in our waters.

[@ngkeam9491]

@janet- simple , US elite capture. President is doing the bidding of others!

[@tfk884]

TRUTH. PREACH BABY.

[@ngkeam9491]

@@tfk884 - woke encompassment!

[@journeywith6v6]

if only more Taiwanese were as wise as you

[@ngkeam9491]

@@journeywith6v6 -ya, the incumbent/ former Presidents have proclivity for US safeguard? add oil, Taiwan!

[@OddRagnarDengLerstl]

Why one or the other? The Chinese are not our enemy, why do we want to become theirs?

[@simonh1552]

Talking about rules base order, why didn't they realise that China followed more UN rules than USA whom keep violated. Remember, no one should follow USA Rules but to follow UN Rules Based Order.

[@michaelwang6125]

did you mistakenly type USA instead of Moscow who did violate the UN Charter 5 when it invaded Ukraine? Maybe UN should be dissolved since veto members can break rule and disrespect the law of the sea ~ like China did when it kind of occupied part of the Philippines island. Didn't PH won the UN law case against Beijing... why hasn't Beijing move their ships-etc away yet?

[@mick947]

International law was replaced by the term Rules based order specifically so that America didn’t have to abide by international law.

[@actionong]

Rules based order means to supply Ukraine with cluster munitions, and depleted uranium shells.

[@petekdemircioglu]

UN is corrupt to the core

[@DIRKDIGG88]

Rules based order is a does not exist Find me a copy of that Then we talk

[@johnkruk6929]

This is a decision that needs to be rectified by China & Taiwan when reunification finally takes place ❤️ . This has nothing to do with America or the rest of the World ,(Europe /Nato countries).

[@wayangpok]

Quite to the contrary, absolutely not! A unified China Taiwan under any administration communist or otherwise is really the greatest nightmare for the US.

[@yuchinglo5192]

from Taiwan: totally agree with you 👍💖

[@ngkeam9491]

@john- its China internal policy, admonish US to screw off!

[@laurie7-mo5gk]

But the problem with china and us,is us doesnt want china to take number spot economically

[@wowyzaoy]

a PHD in Chinese studies in Italy. If you want to study the Chinses you go to China, no? But that doesn't matter. Do you see the Chinese having endless debates on how to deal the world? NO! Because they're too busy producing. Their ambassadors to, the middle east speaks Arabic, to south and central Americas speak Spanish or Portuguese to Europe speaks English... etc. do any of yous speak Chinese? But if you don't, how are you an expert on China?

[@stevenliew2507]

All these so call Western Experts on China don't know how to read or write Mandarin and call themselves experts.😮😮

[@zolandia5262]

If you want to study the Chinese then you need to study in both Taiwan and the PRC

[@wowyzaoy]

@@zolandia5262 aha, you must be a China expert.

[@tomviktorsson5052]

sure , why not learn Chinese to be brain washed by China? and dont try all that Chinese history and culture non senses which China dont have any , do you know that the red Chinese burned desecrated Confucius temples , houses. Tombs and burnt all his works during the cultural revolutions , they dug up corpses , hanged it up naked in public throw shiet at it , and now China want you to learn Confucianism from them . hell , even the savaged barbarians such as Mongols , Manchurians and all the other savages did not do that and showed great respect to Confucius . why do you know that the Chinese dont have endless debates on how to invade neighboring countries , testing the water to see how weak and incompetence the west are , using silk road project to literally buy national sovereignty from corrupted government ? simply because you are not in the CCP , you are just a common person just like every body else in China that need to be brainwashed , obedient and pacify . China have 1.5 billion people , public debates , politics out in the streets , citizen's opinions need to be stomped out , nipped in the buds , because a protest in France , America or other countries might be just fine , but public unrest in a 1.5 billion people nation is a completely different story.

[@shycan-xj6hz]

Well, to be read as expert in western foreign policies on China

[@SpruceWood-NEG]

Isn't it that only a few countries in Europe have sovereignty and half of it? The vast majority of European countries do not have their own sense of independence. Is the EU working for Europe? Isn't it ridiculous to talk about this issue?

[@frankm6218]

Very true. The democracy allies of America have only one sovereignty - Americans sovereignty, rest of them have nothing.

[@catalincarceanu7991]

Those who rule EU ,are doing that in pleasant way for USA and in total disregard with the european citizen.

[@hopr-qn7rf]

俄乌战争，美国卖给乌克兰武器赚了钱，俄罗斯断了欧洲的能源，美国卖给欧洲价格更高的能源赚钱，中美贸易，欧洲要花更高的价格购买生活必需品，欧洲妥妥的大冤种。

[@nancyyan2194]

EU should Look at what is going on in the world and then decide on its position. China focuses on mutual benefit while the US is on its own interest at your expense

[@lah6739]

As a Canadian, whose government is so far up Washington's butt GPS can't find it, I ask one question of Europeans. Why would you choose to side with the US on anything geopolitical with its dismal history of illegal invasions, overthrowing democratically elected governments, destabilizing national economies in its own interests and causing the deaths of millions of civilians? Domestically the US is a falling empire; it is rotting from the inside out and the fall of the American empire is and will be incredibly destructive on a global basis. It will not go down quietly. Stay neutral Europe; it's your only hope.

[@JDAbelRN]

United States won't go down, despite ungrateful and cowardly Canadians.

[@vilester]

It’s because they are white and they fear everything else

[@ngkeam9491]

@lah- bang on. but EU still lives in fantasy, still holds to a glimmer of Hope!

[@yu-jd5jg]

Europe should be independent and neutral to the geopolitics played by the Hegemonic US to dominate the world

[@eugene9660]

"Neutral" meaning turning a blind eye to human rights abuses, and watching on the sideline a democracy being taken over by a dictatorship, even trying to profit from it?? "Neutral" without standing for your own values is not neutral. It's surrender

[@victoriaide7638]

One hundred percent..

[@darrellhenry9152]

Except when Russia invades and they come running back to daddy.

[@mick947]

The truth in a nutshell.

[@zhjucie7147]

In another 50 years, Muslims will dominate Europe because of the hypocrisy of Europeans.Britain and France are the beginning.

[@georgelim3651]

Funny that they didn’t invite a Chinese to participate in this debate to present a Chinese point of view.

[@Tartan]

The debate didn’t call for a Chinese point of view. You appear to be watching the wrong debate.

[@ensteffo]

@@Tartan The debate was anti Chinese US nationalist vs anti Chinese European nationalist which although different in relation to view on Chinese economic ties is to narrow as there should be the correct viewpoint represented that China is in fact good (global south development and poverty reduction as proof while western smears can be ignored as they are Iraq WMD 2.0).

[@thaiav8r]

They are so afraid.

[@hootowl6354]

Seriously? Any Chinese point of view is the CCP's point of view. You really think they can speak their mind?

[@frankm6218]

Inviting Chinese into this will mean that they have to talk about truth which will scare them to death.

[@xrc5540]

Question should be - should Europe side with the aggressor or the victim of aggression?

[@jianntan]

Do not forget Europe esp UK are aggressors, look at Africa and Iraq.

[@christoschristakopoulos1478]

SHOULD WE SIDE WITH THE VICTIM ALL THE TIME OR JUST SELECTIVELY

[@battlechaser8197]

Would it be asking too much for Europe to stand on its own two feet and not take sides with either of the great powers, and just mediate? And it's disappointing that Switzerland seems to be on the brink of ending its long history of neutrality. Been a big fan of Switzerland and its neutrality for many years, but if it goes the way of Sweden and Finland, I will be a VERY disappointed guy. But in the end I guess that Europe will side with the US, as Europe and the US have in the past invaded, or colonised most of the world, including all of Asia (bar Thailand.)

[@vkenchan9304]

The first American speaker, did you ever travel to China, if not you have no clue at all about china

[@alypalm3212]

IT is not a question, wether Europe should follow the US to contain China, rather than if they want to recognise the coming New World Order, which is the Asian Century With the Multipolarity?

[@a9udn9u-vanced]

It's funny to hear people say that they are against aggregation but at the same time they want to side with the USA. Especially when their own countries are victims of USA aggregation (militarily or economically). Some Europeans care about the USA more than themselves, I wonder why.

[@koruptorbesar9141]

It is about same race. Human biologically behaves like animal. Even insects are racist 😂Look at how ants build their own race colony. Red ants group together, black ones make another group, brown ones another. You never see black, red, brown ants being together. It is just the fundamental behaviour of all species created by the Almighty 😊, it is the inevitable nature.

[@ngkeam9491]

@a9udn- aggression? riddle for readers?

[@zhenchang9579]

The European lady who dresses in black shirt make a lot of insightful points compared to her opponents who basically just echo what we read on social medias. I’m glad that Europeans have people like her to represent their own interests rather than get impacted by ideological rumors and so neglect the turbulence of world’s reshaping. BTW, I’m a Chinese.

[@leeroger3]

Of course China is not perfect but there is a right way to engage China, the US way of engaging China is very dangerous and causing turmoil and potential catastrophe for the whole world. So it is imperative that Europe do not side with the US and engage China on its own terms and in a constructive way

[@yaoliang1580]

What do you mean by China is not perfect, it's certainly far better compared to those western criminals.

[@7Samadhi777]

And Taiwan in any case is absolutely none of the West’s or anyone else’s business. The class and forbearance China has shown in the face of the West’s disrespect and endless provocations is nothing short of admirable and amazing. So, thank you dear China, you are my model in life that bears emulating….

[@breandennolan7216]

​@@7Samadhi777bot

[@7Samadhi777]

@@breandennolan7216 Sorry to disappoint, but I am alive and breathing, and what I say here and elsewhere comes from my extensive readings and Buddhist precepts. I love China for its golden heart and generosity. And who else is going to save us from this long western nightmare?

[@breandennolan7216]

@@7Samadhi777 China is good insofar as it has absorbed Buddhist traditions or that is one thing you respect about it? Genuinely curious.

[@duinay3]

Europe doesn't have a choice because the US won't let it "side with China" - everyone knows Europe is America's batch 😂

[@zhangyi5145]

Anyway, EU is just a weak chick, we Chinese actually don't care which side it aligns itself with. Those Europeans are sick men that can't even handle themselves well.

[@jeffzhang4890]

UK, east EU countries are all the sons of US.

[@dusanvukotic1487]

As if anybody would even ask EU who it would side with. 😅 What US says, that's what EU follows

[@enzoh7763]

Yes ,, the bAtch has no standing , no voice .

[@ghostface558]

China want eu to grow up more than eu itself

[@timzhang808]

China never asked Europe to side with it. They just want Europe to be independent and keep normal business relationship with China.

[@nickpeng9914]

To be honest, from the speeches of the four guests, it can be heard that none of them really understands the issues related to China. All four of them hold evident fixed opinions and ideological perspectives about China and the United States. How can a group of people who fundamentally lack understanding of their subject matter come to objective and valuable conclusions?

[@Baz.007]

Join forces with "like minded countries" to support Taiwan militarily sounds almost like a guaranteed WW3. It's like saying the Russian war is better to spill into the rest of Europe rather than just be contained within Ukraine. Mind blowing stuff here

[@hopr-qn7rf]

因为战争蔓延到欧洲，美国又可以卖很多武器给欧洲各国，反正战场在欧洲，关美国什么事，美国又可以趁机发财了。

[@lamganwangsu4159]

So called panelists are lacking required indepth insights on the topic

[@eulescholz8530]

100% agreed!

[@lorainejones41]

Wow now they are holding debates between two sides that agree with each other. I miss the old school debates.

[@7Samadhi777]

And they thought we wouldn’t notice….

[@lah6739]

BTW - what exactly is "rules based order"? It begs the next question, whose rules and what kind of order?

[@wangjim5839]

The EU should be wise and independent enough to do what is good and beneficial for them and not what the US wants them to do.

[@mick947]

I don’t think any European country has that sort of autonomy.

[@jeffzhang4890]

You just neglect the US soldiers in EU. No country will disobey Uncle Sam publicky.

[@enzoh7763]

The EU is spineless, or absolute coward, to disobey the US .

[@yinghongtan]

What is good then? Is it good for Hongking and Taiwan to lose their freedom and democracy?

[@enzoh7763]

@@yinghongtan , , freedom and democracy. ? ? Now, , we in G7 don't have enough freedom too, So why should they have it . We should have our LIBERTY Preserved , UNtrampled , and Uphold by our govt, even if they are corrupted and dictatorial .

[@iechuanlee9326]

The EU is big enough, with 37 countries to stand by itself not with the US or China.

[@michaelwang6125]

Yeah~ except it too is a democratic governing system. So its more like EU+USA In 2020; I actually suggested that the only way for Beijing to break USD's dominance is by adopting EU as its main currency since most of the developed nations will never use the Yuan as their reserve currency due to lack of transparency-credibility-reliability.

[@iechuanlee9326]

@@michaelwang6125 Using Euro no, no because euro doesn't allow countries to defeat US led sanctions. US had illegal sanctions nearly or more than 50% of the world and this is the main object why most of the developing countries want to join BRICS. These sanctions killed & made the innocent suffered according to UN & experts, also inhuman and the BRICS alternative is god sent to defeat these US led illegal inhumane sanctions..

[@WG1AHK]

Noah speech is totally out of fact. He is dreaming. And is a really USA fans.

[@kz7822]

It's concerning that the EU seems to prioritize taking sides rather than standing independently. By doing so, the EU risks losing its own identity.

[@louistan7560]

Why the question and the debate? When the answer is so obvious? European countries should stand on their own feet and decide what makes most sense to them for their countries' future and for the future of their people instead of being forced by any party to go against their own interests that is, assuming that their leaders are truly working for their own countries.

[@kianh1903]

Side with whom? Whomever helps you to survive n progress fairly

[@frankm6218]

Being Americans lap dogs for decades, it is not that easy to stand on their own feet.

[@mick947]

And what do you think would happen to a European country that didn’t side with the US? That’s right.

[@yinghongtan]

@@mick947nothing? Did US do anything to Armenia? US owes Europe nothing.

[@caomilo1031]

The debate is so naive and western-centric.

[@peterwilliams7335]

Did they ask the root cause of the war between Russia and Ukraine war? Of course not and they are trying avoid that because the U.S. and NATO expansion is the root cause of this war. The Westerns such as these two, always use double standards toward to others. They blame something which are caused what they did to others. They are supported politically and sponsored financially by the U.S. government who has allocated huge amount of budget just for the anti-China campaign. At the same time, China is very poor and weak in the field of media propaganda in comparison to the powerful media houses in the West. When the U.S. media starts making lies about China, the entire media from Western nations will follow. However, they can only fool the fools. 80% of the world don’t really trust the Western media. The U.S. and its allies don’t represent the majority of the world’s opinions.

[@clancywong]

😅 Hahaha,the double standards shown by the West. Always howling about Xinjiang n the Uighurs. Even though none of them have been there. Meanwhile in the Gaza strip, Muslims get beaten and chased out of their homes by Israel. But the Western World quiet as a mouse.😅

[@bouncingBrain]

One topic that I feel was neglected is China's investment Africa. Helping stabilize the many countries on the continent, which is what China is doing, will certainly help with the migration issues in Europe.

[@knowstitches7958]

China is NOT stabilising any african nation that isn't stable,of course China is engaged in Africa and that's good for the continent but even better for China as it source most of its raw materials from the continent.

[@michaelwang6125]

fun fact; *lets ignore the white elephant in the room* How many of those BRi projects in Africa have proven to be stable and beneficial in both the short/long term. Yes there are some but at what ratio T___T Nonetheless Beijing did forgive a large amount of debt Africa owns and hence why most of them haven't voiced their complaints about the pandemic and etc.

[@stevenliew2507]

This is in contrast the exploitation of African Nations even currently like France. Zambia just received a friendly loan from China at 1% interest as versus that of from IMF or World Bank.

[@stevenliew2507]

​@@michaelwang6125No Westerners Lenders to the African Nations had agreed to the write off on their trouble loans but instead push for additional loans to pay the old loans. China on the contrary had written of such problem loans as a help to these African Nations as goodwill.

[@mannyching5463]

China are addressing the problems in the poor countries correctly & I think the west should consider doing the same as the world are getting educated n more inform because of the world advancement in communication industry. There will be more educated population in Africa n South America that no one can obstruct in the future.

[@wenyu637]

47:33 Taiwan is part of China so don't interfere china for their affairs. China has own democracy and Taiwan has its own democracy. One county two system in hk is still successful. So what

[@chinfookyen8450]

This subject of the debate (should Europe side …) is a trap designed to force the audience present to choose side. As a matter of fact, Europe can choose to remain neutral.

[@181soulgazer]

The problem with such a debate amongst Europeans is that they forget that historically Taiwan is part of China and what happens between them in a kinetic war would be a continuation of the civil war which did not end on an armistice. The international legal status of Taiwan is irrefutable, it is part of China. The other thing that is neglected in the discussion or even twisted by proponents of the debate is that all the tensions and aggression against China have arisen mainly because of a major change in US administrations over the rise of China and its impact on US geopolitical dominance. The ensuing media storm was to always and consistently paint China false, negatively as a power when the reality is just the opposite. China is for trade, peace and multi-lateralism and for Europe to act autonomously for its own interests. Why should Europe just follow the US blindly on so many policies against China. China is not out to get the rest of the world to be run on their system of governance. When they say they want to change the world order, they mean to make it more equitable... to have a bigger say in WTO, the world bank and the IMF for example. Right now they have only 2.9% vote although they are 20% of the world economy and contributes much more in UN and other world bodies.

[@JDAbelRN]

And number one in virus research and production.

[@user-18r9es7tt3]

@@JDAbelRNyou mean the US?

[@artlode6574]

Should Europe Follow America? Japan is doing it, Australia is doing it, India is following the United States, should Europe also follow the United States? Because Japan, Australia, and India are all following the United States, European countries must think about staying away from China and following the United States. Haha, what a childish reason.

[@seowkhoontan9534]

We are watching WWE or AEW here.

[@wilftan2571]

Only fool follow the fool. Think ! Peace and stand Nuetral in looking at the facts. Japan is worry Chuna take revenge South Korea is worry because of North Korea and Indua is concern at present moments the defence is not at par with China and Taiwan corruption official is being sway to USA. Any war there is in No Winner for 3rd World Nueclear. No one country should force another country to follow thier systems. Mind and take good care of your citizens instead spending your fund of buying weapons. UKRAINE war happen all because of USA and NATO. Look seriously the facts. Why NATO try to surround Russian trying to sign so many member's? How about if China start China Membership like NATO around USA or EUROPE? Talk is Cheap Action is Louder.

[@frankm6218]

What do you expect? They are feed up by cia.

[@tiatemsugyi5775]

Don't think India is following the U S, they aren't stupid.

[@wayangpok]

The notion that others are following that’s why EU should do too echoes the lack of will on the part of EU to manage its own destiny.

[@alsuperbee9048]

Europeans don’t need to worry about the Taiwan issue. It will be resolved peacefully between 2025 and 2028.

[@chancellortsang]

Europe has lost its mind in dealing with China negatively on orders of USA. Like Australia under ScoMo, the country suffered economically. Now it is hard to earn back its credibility again.

[@joncen5347]

Agree, eu should learn from the mistake the morron down under had done to his country

[@stevenliew2507]

Asia is not just about Japan and Korea. Noah didn't seem to know the Geopolitical Importance of South East Asia which has a larger population than the combined that of both Japan + Korea. In addition, many European Businesses are very focus on the Chinese Market including BMW, Mercedes and LV + Branded Goods, more so than US. Therefore, both the German and Swiss are very bias and myopic views and opinions against China.

[@user-bt3iz7vi7q]

Countries sided with US because they are force to do so because US needs to protect the US dollar hegemony, and the rise of China will challenge it if not collapse the dollar hegemony as it should because every country should have fair option to trade.

[@majorcalvary6515]

As a Chinese American who was born in Taiwan and had education in Taiwan early secondary learnings; do the Europeans really care about Taiwan or really using Taiwan as a convenient deterrent against Chinese rising? At least United States had an official Embassy in Taipei that ended in 1979. Most European countries did not even have any sort of diplomatic mission until later in 1980s when Taiwan became of economic and technological of importance. I’m sorry that I’m not impressed with your arguments and finding your concerns genuine. In fact are we (the West) are concern about China because they are getting attentions of the countries that we used to take for granted, such as Africa and South America countries? I’m reminded that Europeans underestimated Japan last century, history seems to repeating again now with China. China has tumbled since the Qing Dynasty, but has risen again. This also happened during Han and Tang Dynasty. It’s not the first time that Chinese Empire rising again from ashes. Resistance is futile. Good luck.

[@wenyu637]

15:36 West white want Taiwan to buy their expansive weapon or vaccinations.

[@NorCalMoDo]

No body cares about Taiwan It is a dog who has to buy its own bones.

[@IEtoileFilanteI]

You know they don't care. On the base level, they're just hysteric that there are less and less places to colonize and extract natural resources from. France just got kicked out of Mali. Europe tried to get cheap LNG from Africa too but those pipelines were previously blown up. Any healthy economy needs cheap energy. It's easy to preemptively blame China for their own economic suicide caused by unilateral sanctions. US wants more white immigrants or it's going to have a Hispanic majority very soon. That was the whole point of cutting Europe off from Russian energy because the Inflation Reduction act was passed at the same time. Cutting off Russian energy was in Antony Blinken's college thesis in 1987. US made a killing from those sanctions supplying LNG at 4-5x the Russian price. Europe can't afford to sanction China too. US can remain relevant as long as Europe is cut off from China and Russia. It's up to Europeans to decide their future. Move industries and people to the US just like the 1800s or play a balancing act and save their homeland. I don't even see how China is involved in any of this decision making.

[@kwokfaichan5476]

@majorcalvary6515 Well said, l hope people in Taiwan smarter than Vietnam people, choose unite with mainland peacefully like Germany did.

[@actionong]

Most of the leaders do not recognise Republic of China, so that answers what they think. But why would the European leaders care about Taiwanese? They don't even care about their own people.

[@NTraveller]

Europe should bend its knee to the grandeur of the US! Let's make Taiwan next Ukraine!!!

[@enghongong]

Japan is not leaning on US. Japan is totally controlled by US militarily and Japan is afraid that with a strong China she would have to pay the debt of her invasion of China. Basically Japan has no choice because of her WW2 defeat and her war crime against China, but to do her best to counter China. India is a classic case of playing on both sides since second World War.. India is not for USA, India is not for China and India is only for India. India buys the most Russian oil and gets some benefits from US and is part of the BRICS banking organisation. Frankly speaking, the four speakers have no in-depth understanding of China, the Chinese way of thinking and the Chinese government or her history. Very shallow talks. The anti China speakers just use fear propaganda. Very disappointing. Taiwan is a Chinese internal affair. Whatever happens only China has the right to act in her own interest. US strategy is America First. The rest of the world does not matter. Europe and no nation in the world can align to this. It is a strategy of a typical bully.

[@hau8072]

There is no need for Europe to side with either China, Russia or US. But Europe should not become a vassal state or be subservient to the US. Europe should chart its own destiny and to befriend all countries of the world esp Russia, a hugely important & powerful neighbour.

[@deviantshade]

America is a product of European imperialism and its existence is a blanket of darkness all over the world. USA stands as a reminder of colonialism and its perpetual existence of perverse order over the whole world. Europe fears the fall of USA because it also topples their dominion over their colonies as well. The fall will reveal the crumbling pillars of imperialism that left its own citizens neglected and its morally deprived society with a dwindling population.

[@ghuangdad]

maybe Europe should debate whether they should have supported the US in invading Vietnam and why they supported a war for many years even after seeing the civilian casualties.

[@marcusaurelius9123]

Europe didn't support the Vietnam War nor the chinese invasion of Vietnam in 1979

[@ghuangdad]

@@marcusaurelius9123 But still participated. Vietnam war lasted 20yrs, chemical warfare, landmines in villages & civilian massacres & spread brutal wars to neighboring countries. Hypocrisy of democracies is people say they're against the war but yet it went on 20yrs in unchecked brutality. And here we are again with US/Europe looking for another war.

[@dunbarx7383]

The topic of the debate is illumintaing enough: Europeans and Americans are entrenched in the idea of "taking sides", totally oblivious of the Chinese approach, which is deeply rooted in the Confucian teaching that "Never is a man of decency and integrity alone; he will attract like-minded companions along his way." (德不孤，必有邻）China is not interested in forcing countries to take sides. If you want to do business, let's do busines; if not now, let's wait for a more opportune moment, and be cordial to each other. In 1770, John Wesley coined the phrase "agree to disagree" in a memorial sermon of one of his friends. In fact, about 2000 years ago, in The Book of Rites (礼记）， Confucianists already stated that "if we agree, we become close; if we disagree, we respect each other." (同则相亲，异则相敬） Picking sides or forcing sides - it's child play. But of course, good for politics, good for votes. The incapacity to give a policy speech or hold an acedemic discussion without cautioning against China is an exhibit of petulance at best.

[@mistman5640]

I like Le Corre's opening joke. It shows the balance of power between US and Europe. It is not between 2 equal partners. It is between a master and a vassal.

[@accountantthe3394]

Europeans do love being the submissives

[@mick947]

That’s the truth.

[@JDAbelRN]

Europe is very fortunate to have United States protect your back door since 1900. Europe have been ungrateful for our blood and treasure and I hope the next president ignores your pleas for help when Russia and Turkey and Middle East begin the rape of Europe.

[@yinghongtan]

Europe should start to gain more independence by building its own military, seriously.

[@xieccs]

Isn’t a common sense that you gave masks to people who are your friends and close to? In your argument, that US should send arms to Russia or send food to North Korea?

[@michaelleong100]

Asia society without any Asian panelist ? Great debate.....huh

[@actioergosum5193]

Just goes to show the deep seated ethnocentricism that undergirds Europe's view of itself and the world~

[@Tartan]

If 3 Japanese academics and 1 American were to debate whether Japan should align with the US on China, then you wouldn’t be calling that “ethnocentric”. This is a debate about European policy, not global policy.

[@actioergosum5193]

@@Tartan Yes, but at least have a voice from the other side of the equation- China...

[@michaelleong100]

They are still debating based on western concocted lies on Uyghurs, HK and Taiwan , all domestic issues of china which do not concern the west and pose no security threat to the west.

[@Tartan]

@@actioergosum5193 why? This isn’t a debate about what China should do or what China wants. It’s a debate about European policy direction. And adding a third position would no longer be an Oxford format debate. Seems you haven’t understood the premise of the event.

[@Co-su6he]

If Europe fully followed America’s attitude, the world will be divided in 2. And confrontations will only be more and the risk will be higher since we are all nuclear countries. It is pessimistic.

[@rwksasc]

Europe should think for itself and act in its own interests. But forget your imperialist dreams. These are the past.

[@willeisinga2089]

Support China ❤️

[@simonh1552]

It's compulsory EU should have own Military and own Weapons and not relying totally on USA as now which is under US blackmail plus Hijacked

[@frankiegregoriou4604]

Why you haven't invited PROFESSOR JEFFREY SACHS

[@andrewlau9873]

The lady in black is very intelligent. Her arguments are fair and in regional and global perspectives.

[@huang_mou]

The comments on this video are more meaningful than the video content...

[@johnlay3040]

Whatever debated, it is just a waste of time, it is impossible for the member of 5-eyes, to side with China. 😂😂

[@Tartan]

Neither Europe nor the EU is a member of 5-Eyes. Only the UK is, and they have left the EU.

[@NorCalMoDo]

except New Zealand

[@rbrookeb]

@@NorCalMoDoperhaps it’s time to kick them out

[@john-ss8hk]

Marina kept referring to "like minded countries"and "like values" etc. This consideration was paramount. She came short of saying "like coloured". Why can't one accept diversity, and differences in background, history, culture and of cos governance? What she really meant to put across is inciting populism or even racism. A speaker for the security establishment. Like fear mongering against the Jews before WWII.

[@pkchow2580]

If they are professionals I am afraid we all are in trouble trying to divide rather that finding common grounds for promotion of peace on earth!!!!

[@margarethawinarto3931]

A meaningless debate that did not have any substance.

[@Tartan]

Agree. All 4 panelists gave fairly weak, simplistic arguments. The American in particular never really progressed beyond “China bad” as an argument.

[@yaoliang1580]

I did not listen as i know it will be completely meaningless, just look at the comments instead

[@yaoliang1580]

​@@TartanI did not listen as i already know it's not worth listening. Just read the comments

[@stacey7529]

I agree. This debate is pathetic.

[@michelng5630]

It doesn’t matter what the US or Europe think. It’s an internal matter for China that broaches no interference from third parties. China has given Taiwan another 24 years to grow up, and hopefully smarten up.

[@WG1AHK]

Noah's ignorance to China is a joke in his speech. What is China? This question has n't been a correct norm in Noah's mind. But, unfortunately, he is in debating something greatly concerning China. Such logic is very common in western people. Appears that they have such a power & authority to determine what would be happened & not.

[@7Samadhi777]

Not ignorance but deliberate systematic pathetically shoddy neocon Zionist propaganda….

[@jsim5933]

Very sad that some debaters are merely regurgitating lies and false information from western media without checking the truth from sources themselves. 😢

[@eggtan4051]

Europe should started thinking & standing up for themselves to Continue to Progress. Europe to stand on the right start in Histroy

[@SSTan-cz7eo]

Despite the speakers been highly intelligent and academically qualified , I find that human cruelty , racist bias and the notion "I am right therefore you are wrong" mentality do exist in them.

[@maxheadrom3088]

7:44 What? The US has been a democracy for over 250 years? If that's your concept of democracy, why are you complaining about China?

[@guillermotell2327]

Apparently this guy considers slavery and genocide as truly "democratic".

[@angelchouk]

What the teams on these debates did not speak on is that US foreign policy still recognizes the One-China policy, meaning Taiwan is not an independent nation.

[@epapanak]

Before this question another question should be added. Can USA save the Western Civilization? Given present policies as they apply them

[@Sirnkissako]

The arguments by the against China side are absolutely wrong and misconcieved.

[@yliang1688]

🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩Under democracy and freedom, YOU don't need to choose side. You are a Sovereign country. Interventionism is dead. ❤❤❤❤❤

[@VichoBandido]

Seriously!!!! You US vassals don't get a choice 😂😂😂😂

[@unreliablenarrator6649]

A miserable debate. Asia Society is faltering.

[@kudamakota]

This debate highlights detachment from reality, its one view by both sides, one side supports escalation and one side supports diplomacy. Its not worth listening too really. Taiwan is Mainland China's province period!

[@edwardwookw]

There’s no need to take sides. Just work hard and do stuff that will improve your economy and the people’s lives.

[@philipskyap]

The difficulty of aligning with US is to give up engaging with China, but aligning with China still can engage with US, China never demand total alignment.

[@benjaminhuang4733]

You couldn’t find any Asian panelists?

[@cls-py8uh]

Asian panelist will probably be a feeble Japanese cuck fantasizing about the possibility of becoming an Honorary Aryan rather than a proud Chinese pro-CPC Chang.

[@Tartan]

The debate was about what Europe should do.

[@accountantthe3394]

@@Tartan You don't think an asian voice would be useful for the discourse? Edit: Ironically there's an american on the panel. Why?

[@Tartan]

@@accountantthe3394 I wouldn’t be against it, but the fact that there isn’t one isn’t a valid criticism.

[@trustmeiknow1]

Just shows how white centred the Asian Society is. Classic orientalists. Asia for White people, thats the whole premise of US hegemony in the region

[@btgan9227]

LOL... Taiwan "expert" who doesnt know Taiwan is part of China, per WW2 Cairo and Portdam declaratons, and per the UN.

[@taolitang8403]

“Should the US side with Europe on China? It’s a joke” and a joking question that answers / says a lot. A non-joking question would be: “Should Europe side with Peace, or War?”

[@user-el6mb2qk3q]

Laws that are set in Washington DC must not be mistaken as international laws. Through NATO, the US calls the shot, so Europe inherently, cannot be militarily and politically independent.

[@MeiinUK]

And yet, Chinese local issues are blown up to be using UN level laws to drag the rest of the world to domestic Chinese issues.. just cos a few had been trading or was a diaspora before. Why should this continue ? Why should local banks in china act like an international bank here and odd people inside China be suddenly made wealthy above all other citizens across other countries ? Where is justice? Why should this happen?

[@yuanshuan7099]

It is not a problem of democracy, it is about merit. Who is the boss¿ USA for sure.❤

[@dhawanpankaj1690]

As we Indian rightly said at G20 “ This is not the time for war”. We must collectively discredit the war.

[@gibsonsg6201]

There is never a good time for war when peace is achievable. The US should just spend all those military spending on her own people, Medicare, housing, education, welfare and infrastructures, Just in case the pro US/Euro panelists forget, Joe Biden has said that he will not let China rise (peacefully) and prosper under his watch.

[@RoepernRuppMcRitter]

I´d like to ask Mr Snowden about what exactly is a surveillance stateand also what is a democracy

[@Lyra0966]

This has to be one of the most dismally low-level debates ever held at Oxford. Over an hour of vague assertion, unsubstantiated opinion and depressingly hackneyed observations on the nature of Chinese geopolitical and economic concerns. Neither side in this debate had marshalled much in the way of useful secondary evidence from authoritative sources, be they ministerial statement, declared governmental objectives, economic policy documentation or academic opinion. Neither side made much, if any, effort to define terms nor interrogate the veracity of commonly, though often mistakenly, held views regarding Chinese, European and US motives. For example, it seemed here to be taken as a given that the Chinese represent a geopolitical threat to the West, when both history and extant policy declaration suggest otherwise. Similarly, the benign intent and motives of Europe collectively and the US (as an imperial power) were taken as axiomatic. A far better debate - and no doubt a far more one-sided debate - might have ensued had the Oxford Union invited far better informed, alternative voices such as the brilliant journalists Max Blumenthal and Aaron Mate. These two would have at least be prepared and more than able to demonstrate the far more malign and duplicitous motives, with respect to China relations, of both the European Union and successive US administrations.