PACK LEADER HERO TALENTS! | Beast Mastery & Survival Hunter in The War Within | Analysis & Feedback

MY BM GUIDE: www.icy-veins.com/wow/beast-m...
MY SV GUIDE: www.icy-veins.com/wow/surviva...
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0:00 Intro
0:27 Vicious Hunt - Main Mechanic
2:04 Basic Attack Mechanics
5:00 Den Recovery - Defensive Node
7:07 Frenzied Tear - MATH!
10:55 Worst Choice Nodes Ever
13:06 AoE DPS Choice Nodes
15:40 Kill Shot/Bleed Dmg Node
18:41 DPS Choice Node
23:11 WHAT DOES PACK ASSAULT DO!?
26:07 Conclusion/Summary

[@Azortharion]

CORRECTIONS 1) One valid interpretation of Mend Pet that I didn't touch on in the video is that Mend Pet could be meant to be a pet heal and not a Hunter heal. Based on the exact wording, that seems more likely than what I assume in the video. Obviously we heal our pet very rarely outside soloing so that part is close to worthless for PvE. 2) I know the 'p' sounds are a little harsh. Should be fixed for the next video. 3) The Kill Shot dmg increase napkin math values are too high, I looked at overall contribution and not relative. Oops!

[@canoncat3]

yeah heals "the target" makes me think this is really just a PVP focused pet heal

[@Juniper_]

I also think furious assault sounds like they mean barbed shots cd and damage is buffed, not buff thr kc from frenzied tear.

[@DylanSmothers]

According to Wowhead, it does heal the hunter

[@Azortharion]

@@DylanSmothers it doesn't

[@DylanSmothers]

@@Azortharion Ahh, that's a bummer

[@thelastspectre8141]

Survival needs to replace raptor strike or mongoose bite with how flanking strike works where you and your pet actually work as a tag team doing combos, bombs and kill commands are fine and how your pet attacks with you is how it should have been. Play similar to unholy where you're a melee necromancer that fights with your zombies, maybe the bleed your pet makes it like a flesh wound then you come in and tear it open causing it to gush out similar to that concepts that way your pet isn't an after thought of just kill command, a few bleeds, and a source of focus and you do 90% of your damage with bombs, poison, bleeds, and kill shots For my naruto fans, survival needs to be like kiba fang over fang tag team

[@tony9099]

I just saw u comment this exact comment on another video lol

[@Bartek1320]

Cornered Pray could be better for SV if instead of 5yd range it would give Aspect of the Eagle effect for 5-8 seconds.

[@LastTryMedia]

I was gonna suggest 8yds 8secs rather than 5. Would be good for SV for sure, especially in PvP. Eagle would be cool too tbf

[@mono1no1aware]

Thanks for the insight, Azor!

[@garethdunne3443]

Thanks for the analysis, the tree looks very uninspired. What class fantasy are they aiming for? Why can't we summon the whole stable for a period time? They have missed the brief.

[@Dumbmelee]

Please accept this 🐐for your stable

[@Jhonz0r]

🐐

[@riichardbmc]

And also frenzied tier procs a second KC so you can use that proc and go straight to a BS, since the second 30% KC might count as the second KC.

[@pivaTV]

man, i dont know about you guys… but for me, that one should hit the rework queue. theme wise and functionality wise 😢 anyways, tyvm for the time and effort breaking this all down and making it detailed for us ;)

[@dlwyatt82]

Re: Pack Assault, the way I read the "apply twice" bit was you'd go from an "off on off on off on" progression of Vicious Hunt to "off on on off on on", and Pack Coordination would give you a buff that stacks up to twice. _Hopefully_ you can consume both of those stacks in a single barbed shot, (getting 2 basic attacks instantly), or it seems like we'd be wasting a lot of these (imagine trying to keep up a sequence of KC KC BS KC BS KC KC BS KC BS... there just aren't enough barbed shots to maintain that.)

[@Corpo-iu6bs]

This talets feeling really bad. Im not sure if these are rushed, perhpas as you said we may have some placeholders. As a survival main I wonder why do we still the carve/butchery, raptor/moongose byte option, it makes 0 sense. Outside of that and tunning, we have no new spell, new super boring mechanic. I still see no reason to bring these spec to anything outside them been extremely overpowered. Feel bad :(.

[@MarkElf2204]

Most surv hunters, myself included, feel the sv game playloop/rotation currently is fine as is. Yes, the 2 options for ST and AoE buttons that essentially do the same thing is very redutent.

[@Lochie]

Which of the two BM talent trees would you recommend running assuming tuning stays the same as it is currently?

[@Azortharion]

Napkin math is not good enough to accurately evaluate the DPS of the Hero Talents. Simulations are required and those are still far away. There is simply no way to know what's objectively best for a while. Dark Ranger's "Smoke Screen" defensive node is insanely broken, though.

[@Lochie]

@@Azortharion Alright, thanks for the reply anyway :)

[@theluo652]

If mend pet was to apply a heal to the hunter, which AZ has corrected his assumption indicating it's probably not the case. But if it was - having mend pet off the GCD would be unreasonably powerful imo. Macro it into every ability and you have 50% uptime or average of 2.5% heal per sec with 100% uptime at the cost of a macro slot. A much more reasonable request would be for exhil to be off the gcd.

[@Azortharion]

50% uptime on 2.5% health per sec, so around 13K HPS averaged if you have 1 mill health.. Demon Hunters and Warlocks heal themselves for 2-3 times that currently. If you add 13K HPS to our current self-healing numbers, we end up about average as far as self-sustain goes. www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/35#metric=hps&class=DPS&aggregate=amount&boss=2677

[@theluo652]

@@AzortharionSolid point.

[@justinwallace269]

They still have Survival wrong, and they went lazy on this hero expanded version. Survival is supposed to be a range melee hybrid with ambush utility and an emphasis on traps. Right now it's a melee discount Beast Master spec with grenades, which is dumb. Sure, keep the grenades, but BM should be the one fixated on pets and berserker melee damage, while Survival is the gorilla warfare spec. Additionally, I'd like to see a hero spec that suits Survival more - Silvan Ranger: Drastically increased poison damage, Phoenix Arrow, natural remedies and nature healing powers, along with additional utility stings like Wyvern Sting, and an AoE heal-nullifying grenade.

[@davionallen6953]

Make multi shot do serpent sting for bm would be great

[@gunbear8838]

Thx for the Video.. from what you were commenting, i would have thought it would be a 4 out of 10.. Sounds rather underwhelming to me...

[@TheRealDigitalDecaf]

I wish blizzard would watch this video

[@PvtGlarb]

now the question is, overall which is best for raiding, m+ etc, pack leader or dark ranger?

[@Azortharion]

We'll see on launch!

[@cronosdimitri4584]

frenzied tear resets will trigger vicious hunt, no? since its no extra damage but an extra KC at 30% effectiveness

[@Azortharion]

Probably, yep. Good thing that Vicious Hunt appears to be a flat Physical damage addition, otherwise this would be really bad.

[@palfotta]

So there will be no solution for the Bloodlust/Zero utility/Pet buff/Bad survivability problems at all? Different damage talents and skills and numbers, but not a single word (from Blizz) about the deep core problems? :S :(

[@Azortharion]

Den Recovery doesn't do much for our survivability in the case of this Talent Tree, but if you check my Dark Ranger video, your question about survivability might be answered at least.

[@23SlaveMaster23]

I dont think cull the herd works like this. I read that the increased bleed dmg is only after you used kill shot and not the whole time to every target

[@Azortharion]

I read it differently but if you're right then you can cut its projected dps increases in roughly half for single-target (10s cooldown, 5s duration for 50% uptime) and much less for aoe (since we don't usually prioritize ks very highly on aoe). If you're right it would be extremely weak for st and almost worthless for aoe.

[@bustrbsly82]

mend pet targets your pet, so the heal goes on your pet, not you.

[@kayagurcu2814]

For BM; Nothing extraordinary, nothing exciting. Just bring back the class developer from MoP (panda) days. - stampede (the original one) - lynx rush - blink strikes - spirit bond - focus fire / frenzy - rabid / rapid fire i might even forgot some other juicy things.

[@palfotta]

We had silencing shot (instant) + interupt too, man that was the golden age of BM.

[@mayflower72]

Blink strikes was sick

[@gampie13]

Lynx rush should have always been the big dps CD for BM, and with how they made besteal wrath a on of flowstate, instead of burst cooldown, lynx rush would have sloted perfectly in. AND it would actialy give a cool feel to the specc, and something that is a visual at all

[@TheSpecter93]

Great video. Of course survival feels like an afterthought in this talent tree, no surprise. I wish they would focus the pack leader tree for survival on coordinated assault, flanking strike, and other spear focused stuff and sentinel is all about the bombs and chakrams etc.. Feels like whoever added the survival stuff here doesn't play it at all or has never even looked at survival damage breakdown. Also it would be nice to have a real defensive boost in the tree like some other classes instead of a garbage 20% heal over time..

[@mayflower72]

So sad. Having to macro stuff to play their broken abilities, and now not evening running cooldowns because they're so trash (ca or spearhead). Survival gameplay is becoming more degenerate every patch. These hero talents are just an afterthought. The Dev doesn't know how survival plays. (

[@Openedfalcon]

You are completely ignoring the fact that survivals version of kill command is a focus generator so these talents are more about having loads of focus over straight damage.

[@Azortharion]

But Vicious Hunt doesn't improve KC's focus generation or how many of them you can cast? Frenzied Assault does but as I establish in the video, its proc rate is awful for SV since SV doesn't have mechanics that allow more basics.

[@Openedfalcon]

@@Azortharion Do you think the free kill command will also be able to reset our kill command from our talents in the spec tree and do you think the free kill command will give us stacks of tip of the spear? If it does it will greatly increase the single target damage of the coordinated assault window. We would do Coordinated Assault- empowered killshot-kill command-raptor strike(this will also force a pet attack to empower your next ability and use 2 stacks of tip of the spear plus talent damage in this tree)-empowered bomb-and keep repeating using kill shot instead of bomb when we can.

[@christiankerns9403]

honestly survival needs to have duel wielding as an option similar to arms warrior or frost DK

[@johnlang8143]

this is so bad for sv hoping sentinal is actually good

[@shaunybonny688]

Dude I’m with you, sentinel is our only hope at this point, not looking good. Once again SV gonna get dumpstered I’m predicting.

[@user-bc6jd5tq6q]

I do not like the hero talents. I just think our basic talent trees and abilities should be better rather than add another layer of uninspired thematic talents. For BM I think it should be in the game baseline but why not bring back BM being the buff spec. Give each family of pet a raid buff or special ability like it used to be. I dont like having the hero talents have to work for two different specs because usually it seems catered to one and doesnt fit well for the other. In a perfect world for BM hunter hero talent make a direbeast/stampede one and the other would be single pet that could focus on bleeds and procs. Dark Ranger if we are supposed to care about theme seems like MM and not something I want to even consider as BM.

[@cronosdimitri4584]

Some hero talents for other classes are amazing. Hunter getting the short end of the stick as usual.

[@PatrickBrophy]

Isn't it a tree where if you go down the left path that you won't be able to get the right path? So the example of Pack Coordination feeding into Frenzied Tear would not work.

[@scaredpiggy]

u unlock the whole tree at max level

[@PatrickBrophy]

@@scaredpiggy Thanks. These feel even more like bloat if that’s the case.

[@cronosdimitri4584]

the trees would make 0 sense if we didnt get all the talents

[@LastTryMedia]

I play SV and this is really depressing. Its clearly more catered towards BM. Lame.

[@shaunybonny688]

Scattered prey for BM, LOL. Seriously. wtf blizzard

[@ourovermelho23]

very uninspired and sad tree.. more barbed shots resets and kill commands reset multi shot buff you are a pack leader and get to summon 1 miserable pet ... nothing intersting or visual from this tree.. as bad as the Dark Ranger one is it already beats this one very sad... so far only paladins and mages and warriors are getting cool visual and interesting mechanics within their trees

[@cronosdimitri4584]

You missed DKs getting the best tree yet and Evokers getting awesome trees too.

[@ourovermelho23]

dang didnt even check those but yeah if blizzrd really wants to make hero talents so important they gotta makae sure they are fun! and what we have gotten so far for hunters is just lame to be honest@@cronosdimitri4584

[@chowdaire7343]

what a terrible tree. doesn't evoke any imagery of being a pack leader. What's worse, from a SV standpoint, the one talent that does summon an additional companion is attached to a talent choice; not any talent choice either, but arguably the most powerful and most frequently chosen talent in current meta. Why do this? Why force players into talent choices, and if you ARE going to force talent choices, why not use this opportunity to buff underperforming talents that fit the theme better. Here's an idea, if blizzard is insistent on having an additional companion stapled to a talent, why not go with stampede? Here's a much better idea for pack leader that better fits the class fantasy from a survival standpoint. Whenever you activate stampede, randomly call a pet from your stable to attack your target for 15 seconds. Additionally, each raptor strike/mongoose bite reduces the remaining cooldown of stampede by "x" seconds. There, already a thematically better idea than this stupid garbage. And I wouldn't even use THAT idea either! Pack leader should make you a master of multiple animals. Survival should get 2 permanent pets, BM should get three maybe even four. Your core abilities should also have a % chance to temporarily summon additional companions. That is how this whole tree should work.

[@nikgrubo1041]

Unlike DK or even Shaman, im not excited by a single hero talent for hunters that has been shown so far. How many more years we're going to play this Barb/KC mongoloid gameplay, lol.

[@Ditronus.]

I do like the self heal though. Calling it mend pet is weird though. Does it actually heal the player? The wording makes it seem like it heals the pet as the pet is always the "target" for mend pet...

[@naemesis9187]

🐐