Pagan to Christian, Paul Kingsnorth

Paul Kingsnorth is one of the most interesting voices wrestling with the deepest questions of modernity, religion and the spiritual void in western culture.
A former pagan - and long time environmentalist - a couple of years ago he had a completely unexpected conversion to Christianity, which he outlined in his fascinating piece The Cross and the Machine: www.firstthing...
In this conversation in Rebel Wisdom's Digital Campfire we discussed his journey, and reflected on the deep Christian story that we're all immersed in in the west - and if it's even possible to move outside it?
To join conversations like this, check out our membership options: rebelwisdom.co...
Check out Paul's newsletter, The Abbey of Misrule: paulkingsnorth...

[@JonathanPageau]

Wonderful to see Paul here. Great discussion.

[@jjuniper274]

Jonathan, may I ask you a few questions? How can one be Orthodox when there are no churches where you live? How is it different from Roman Catholic or Lutheran? I'm trying to find my way back to God and Jesus. I don't want to be the severed vine anymore, can the vine repair itself?

[@sms4hou676]

@@jjuniper274 neither the church nor you are the vine. Jesus is the vine, and He is very capable to repair the church, and in fact, it is growing rapidly round the world. We have to leave culture worship, first, by worshiping God alone... all else follows.

[@jjuniper274]

@@sms4hou676 that's interesting, because I remember the story to be, cutting off the dead branches, so the vine can grow and be more fruitful, and that I shouldn't be the dead branch of the vine. I guess I'll have to read that parable again. Thx

[@sms4hou676]

@@jjuniper274 good point.. it's just that it starts with "I am the vine, you are the braches" (and the Father is the vine dresser...)

[@KevinSmith-gw5rk]

Thank you for all your work Jonathan

[@bruceclark2277]

Paul's sincerity and "non pushy" way is more alluring than all the greatest crass evangelists could ever be - Thank you ✝

[@autumnangel8004]

I love listening to Paul Kingsnorth....he is very authentic and down to earth. Great chat, thank you! 🌿🌸🌿

[@brendonlake1522]

Paul is so direct and no nonsense, a very refreshing voice to hear!

[@burt2800]

It's uncanny how much this echoes my own story. I've been there, from environmentalism, atheism, Buddhism, paganism, even started on the path to wokeness. Then Jordan Peterson ruined my life for the better. I immediately dispensed with the woke and started to realise that the religious stories had depth and intricacies bordering on the miraculous. Through Peterson I came across Jonathan Pageau (bless both of them) who seemed to begin where Peteson left off. I've since been devouring his content and coming across many inspiring voices, Paul included. Also had very strange and powerful experiences; dreams, overwhelming feelings of gratitude, love for creation and compassion towards others. Now I'm standing in my own way because of pride. But I think I'm past the point of no return. I pretty much know it's over but I can't quite surrender myself. I'm fighting it but yearn to be convinced at the same time.

[@normanshadow1]

I could have written this, if I were as good a writer

[@germy22489]

God will see you through!

[@burt2800]

@@djnv4702 Man, that was 100% exactly what I need to hear. Thanks a lot for that. The thing is, once you're on the path I think you become much more aware and suffer more of falling off the edge. For me that awakening was with Jordan Peterson, I think, and pretty much ruined my life for a few years. All the while what I was looking for was perfectly provided by Christianity. I find prayer really helps, particularly when you don't feel like it. That usually means there's something you're not dealing with, in my experience. I guess you have to learn to trust, because if you ask with all your heart and really listen you find everything you need. It just requires you to lay down your pride and let yourself be humbled; only to emerge reborn. Taking sin seriously is probably the most transformative thing one can do, it's so crazy

[@hansvaneeken610]

@@burt2800 For me the Enneagram was a very fruitfull tool. Lots of Christian books about this phenomenon.

[@jdlngwll]

So, do you believe that all of us aren't following this path are damned and will burn in hell forever? That's the message I get from most of the Christians I've encountered. And what about things like rapture? Is that part of the game plan, too?

[@rongallipoli7701]

I'd like to thank Paul Kingsnorth for introducing me to Death to the World. There's a seriousness to the Eastern Orthodox church that some people need.

[@barefootarts737]

I was skeptical when I started listening to this but I realize now that he's talking about orthodox Christianity. And we really need more Orthodox Christians in America. I am not a Christian, but I have felt this way for a long time. Jesus is not well represented in the US. And this desperately needs to change. I find myself seeing the world and theological terms. And now from this comparison between the Orthodox Christians and the Western flavors I understand why and what I'm looking for. This is an awesome discussion.

[@germy22489]

Blessings on your journey.

[@cryptovagrant1136]

Many years ago, I was against Christians in every way. The abuses I’d seen, the hypocrisy, the superficiality. I wanted nothing to do with it. At a certain point, I realised that if I truly was chasing truth, I had to give the christ idea, the potential of him being real and true, a legitimate chance. Changed my life in every way. Grateful. Good conversation. Thanks

[@user-yp7vf5lo8h]

Same here. I now think that the reason I have always rejected religion as some sort of scam is largely due to the way many churches are run and the people who claim to be God's servants who run the churches. They are the ones who keeps out potential followers.

[@leopoldjenkins]

"There's a throne at the heart of each culture" - wonderfully put.

[@tassiebandrui]

This really resonated with me. I have followed the same path as Paul, from young antsy atheist through eastern philosophies, to paganism and now Christ is pursuing me too. It is unsettling and terrifying and not at all where I saw myself landing, and that’s how like Paul, I know it must be true ❤️. Onto The Way 🙏

[@blakknasa]

Same here Amy. Hope you found a path that brings you happiness and peace. Nice seeing comments like this.

[@Pixie330-r1y]

Well done Rebel Wisdom - for taking such a risk.

[@mondopinion3777]

A risk indeed. Reading through the comments, I can see that most of his commenters are quite hostile to the truth of Jesus.

[@radscorpion8]

@@mondopinion3777 yeah some people just don't trust 2000 year old books from the bronze ages to govern their lives

[@jennysteves]

Thank you for sharing, Rebel Wisdom staff. I feel greatly inspired by Paul Kingsnorth’s transformative new path. Hope is gifted to us all when hope is freshly kindled in any individual, and particularly in one as articulate, deep-thinking and willing to share as this man.

[@mondopinion3777]

What a great comment on Jordan Peterson (30:00) being hunted by Christ, and hiding within his "psychological" perspective, And now both his wife and his daughter have taken the leap of faith -- the guy is surrounded ! When I watch him I am reminded of Eliot's words calling me home when I was an agnostic teenager, sixty years ago : "will the veiled sister pray/ for the children at the gate/who will not go away and cannot pray/ pray for those who chose and oppose "

[@DerekJFiedler]

39:05 interesting how other countries are evangelizing to the western world. A Christian friend of mine from Ghana was called to be a missionary to my small town in northern California to serve the poor/homeless and preach the Gospel.

[@johnmadany9829]

I have been a Christian since my first memory. When very young I wondered if there were any other believers even though I grew up in a very tight Christian community. Prayer was always with me all my life. Praying “thy will be done“ is the number one prayer for me. The Holy Spirit is my teacher whether reading scripture or a scientific paper.

[@corb5654]

I bet your religion matches your parents' religion...

[@stingra8]

Hi John, I recently accepted the message of Jesus and love praying the Lord's prayer. I found your comment about the holy spirit being your teacher very thought provoking. I'd like to learn how to follow the holy spirit like that.

[@johnmadany9829]

@@stingra8 John 14:26 Has been a great comfort to me.

[@mondopinion3777]

@@stingra8 In a way it is like learning to ride a bicycle. The "still small voice" of the Holy Spirit must be distinguished from the other inner voices and leadings within our complex human psyche. We step out in faith, and like learning to balance on a bike, don't always get it right. When I first began, on important issues sometimes God gave me a confirmation from an outside source, or a sign. Over time, we gain discernment.

[@germy22489]

@@stingra8 Seek and you will find!

[@peaceonearth4714]

Wonderful. I am also being pursued. I totally understand. I am coming out the closet to a few people. Sneaking off to the orthodox church and not telling my flatmate. For all the reasons you evoke. At 53, I have tried many eastern paths and yet here I am, the granddaughter of a Lutheren priest, Finding and following orthodoxy.

[@CactusLand]

I love Paul's piece "The Cross and the Machine", great title btw. Fascinating discussion. He's definitely on to something, there's a real feeling that the way out of this cultural quagmire is through transcendence. Reminds me a bit of the story of John Butler and his reconnection to his mother's Orthodox Russian faith.

[@normaodenthal8009]

Western Christianity: study the menu; Eastern Christianity: taste the food.

[@janetbaxter6358]

Can't wait for the PVK commentary!

[@miroslawturski]

It is telling that we are living in the era when you come out as a Christian...

[@adempc]

This comment.. big deal. Should be discussed all by itself. How did that happen? Although in this case, it's a rational person coming out as Christian.. rather than your alcoholic idiot neighbor who collects door knobs.

[@HOTxxx29]

Wonderful interview. I am so happy for Paul. I too was on a journey. I meandered from atheism, Marxism, borderline addiction to amphetamines, and then Hinduism via a guru. I never ever considered Christianity. But circumstances and experiences led me to know that Jesus was trying to get my attention. CS Lewis said he was "the most reluctant convert in all England". I too felt the same way but it has been well worth it !

[@karljuhnke8882]

From reading his recent Unherd essay, great to see Paul understands what many have been saying about COVID. It is being used to instigate authoritarian rule.

[@LostHorizon_]

“When men choose not to believe in God, they do not thereafter believe in nothing. They then become capable of believing in anything.” G.K. Chesterton

[@ThomasMoulson]

So either believe in God or in anything?

[@jasoncox7257]

Isn't that a double negative ?

[@jasoncox7257]

​@@ThomasMoulson I think it's a bit worser than that. It's actually or be tormented in hell for eternity.

[@jasoncox7257]

@@davidhays2846 Yep .exactalilly . Dudes jealous and happy if you would sacrifice your kids to him.

[@jasonsanders8091]

Wonderful talk, and Q. and A. I love Mr Kingsnorth's candidness, and his fine logic. He's been a seeker, and now he has found his home. I too am a convert to Orthodoxy, from being a Theravadan Buddhist. The Orthodox Church certainly has a wonderful depth, history, and has the fullness of the Holy Spirit. I tried Anglicanism for a while and it had some very good things in it (lovely liturgy, great hymns), but it didn't take sacraments like confession and baptism seriously enough, and almost no monasticism. As St Ambrose said, "Monasticism is blessedness". It's the mystical heart.

[@RichBlundell]

Try science

[@jasonsanders8091]

@@RichBlundell Ah, the new religion, that can't be doubted. Fauci said the other day that he is science!!! Wow!

[@RichBlundell]

@@jasonsanders8091 Peace be with you, brother.

[@jasonsanders8091]

@@RichBlundell Shalom

[@LLlap]

I like how you chose it as if it was a sandwich =) ooh, I liked the pickles but the cheese was stale! It is either real and true or it isn`t. That`s it.

[@patbonny1175]

"You gotta serve somebody" - Bob Dylan.

[@triscat]

Bob brought me here.

[@andrewphoenix3609]

Just because it's a metaphor, doesn't make it untrue. It just means that language is unable to talk directly of subjective experience, it needs an intermediary, a metaphor to communicate the experience with something that another human can translate, through memory of their own experiences. This is the challenge of language that resides in the objective realm of reality with things, like trying to use Newtonian physics to explain quantum entanglement

[@PeasantByTheSouthernSea]

I had the same thought. Have you been reading Owen Barfield?

[@kbeetles]

Thank you David - I am definitely drifting back to this channel....! Paul was an excellent guest - I am looking forward to seeing you invite him back for a dialogue with Mary ?!

[@mattspin5285]

I think Paul's observations on Gnosticism are very perceptive. We need embodiment and to see that nature is good!

[@LarsBjerregaard]

This was great chaps, very rewarding, and thanks to Paul for his generosity and candor.

[@stingra8]

Thank you, as a new follower of The Way I feel very encouraged

[@angelrojo6466]

Great conversation. Thank you for your offering.

[@paulsexton1780]

I went from Christian to Heathen. Our Gods work in mysterious ways.

[@kathyleicester7306]

I'm sorry.

[@PeasantByTheSouthernSea]

Disappointing to hear Kingsnorth talk about God as our heritage and birthright, while neglecting to give any honor to the old gods.

[@juliesimmons5171]

@@PeasantByTheSouthernSea who are the old gods please?

[@PeasantByTheSouthernSea]

@@juliesimmons5171 Every human culture has an inheritance of ancestral gods and goddesses, mythology, and magickal rites for maintaining the health and relations of the community. These are the old gods I refer to.

[@hegel5816]

@@PeasantByTheSouthernSea There is only one God...Old gods are just the creations of the Revealed God....

[@ignaciodelascuraincorcuera768]

I’m just so grateful to have discovered this man. Thank you Paul!

[@lilyroa1960]

I LOVE THAT I CAN GET MY NEWS HERE;) I LOVEEEEEEEEEE THIS CHANNEL! It's my University of choice! Thank you so much, Paul And Rebel, for going where others a not willing to go!

[@gracefullyyours6508]

Thanks for sharing your journey home to Jesus. It is very practical and inspiring. You articulated my journey as well in a way that’s helpful to share with others. God bless 😊

[@1just2confused3]

Been enjoying Paul's substack a lot. The Vaccine Moment part 1 is his recent essay and it very important. His tone is level and responsible and he articulates my same concerns in a good faith manner. Him and I agree. The vaccine passports and the mandates have crossed my line. Thank you, Paul, for your voice in these confusing times. Also, thank you Charles Eisenstein for sending me to Paul's substack.

[@lookingforwisdom-t6p]

Same route for me

[@kbeetles]

Oh, similar route for me, too....!

[@recursive4794]

Had a quick read. It troubles me intensely when I see this sort of vaccine hesitant viewpoint in the midst of ideas of someone I otherwise heartily endorse and agree with. It skates close to the paranoid, and it defies all my sense of logic and reason that public health measures, no matter how draconian (I personally would never want to force someone to be vaccinated) are in the public interest and for the public good, whatever profiteers or political bad actors may be involved. It fits very neatly with a libertarian, individualist worldview which is as far removed from Christianity as it could be.

[@allymatsoso2525]

Fascinating discussion. The problem with cultural Christianity or “Atheiest Christians” is that when you meet temptation or the need for self-sacrifice it doesn’t have the power to push us away from our own desires and justifications. Thanks for sharing your story.

[@jondoe6926]

Don't you think religion pushes "self-power" outside of oneself? "It's gods will" is extremely dangerous for example. It encourages inaction.

[@carmentartaglia7133]

The Holy Spirit is the power.

[@georgegrader9038]

It's a good point. Where integrity goes bye bye.... But that is just biology: a strategy to cooperate, survive or dominate.

[@allymatsoso2525]

@@jondoe6926 "Gods will" tend to kick in when we dont have control over a situation. When we do we are taught self-control and resisting temptation.

[@Orthodoxi]

My conclusion after having a similar experience to Paul is that knowing God is a basic human right. One that was denied me and most in modern times. Once an individual has been fairly exposed or through dint of self will come home to this aspect and gained proficiency in the relationship, they can either carry forward with it or reject it. I wonder if given the opportunity anyone would reject a relationship with God? I highly doubt it. Without God one is left pretty well vulnerable to the subtle and most often covertly hidden and often nearly invisible darkness of evil.

[@HauboHaub]

There a few interviews that I watched more than twice. This is one of them

[@carmentartaglia7133]

Really enjoy listening to your ideas. As a professing Apostolic Christian for some 40 years I also found Jesus out of searching for truth through him. One of the problems with our culture is that they have cast down truth and by doing so lies can be feed to the masses. Spiritual truths given by Jesus were only explained to his inner circle : they are truths that are spiritually discerned and are so multifaceted and the layers within the scriptures are endless.

[@Psychonaut42]

Peter Hitchens also talks about this concern and topic a lot to, his book the "Abolition of Britain” is recommended.

[@AlexStock187]

Teri, at around 41:00 I would recommend looking into Saint Herman, especially in relation to this issue of the Indigenous. Russian colonizers entered Alaska and began doing the normal things colonizers do to Indigenous people’s, and they wanted to “make them Orthodox” so brought priests. Among the first was Herman, who harshly rebuked the colonizers and rescued the Natives from their abuse. He’s considered a hero to many Inuit/Aleut today. Because we have a deep love for Indigenous peoples, we chose Herman as the name/patron Saint of our son who was just recently born. An ironic sidenote- You could also look into Saint Peter the Aleut. He was an Indigenous Orthodox man who was tortured and killed by Catholic priests.

[@SoldierDrew]

So Roman Catholic Papists tortured and murdered an Orthodox Christian? Seems a very common theme throughout history since the Romans martyred the 12 apostles of Christ. Yet today the Vatican cult followers claim Orthodoxy to be a sister to Roman Catholicism and many Papists openly call for a unification of Othodoxy & the Papacy. I was strongly considering Orthodoxy but Christ taught me to call no man father, for I have only one Father whose in heaven. And Orthodoxy calls priests 'father', just as the vatican papacy does. And Christ is my high priest, having done away w/earthly priesthood when Christ became our High Priest, our intercessor, our savior and redeemer, yet Apostle Paul teaches in the gospel that the Nicolaetons, whom God hates, wanted to re-instate the old priesthood of men, and Paul warns us to stay away from them for Christ is our high priest. Not men. And Mary can not be our intercessor, she can not recieve our prayers, only Christ is our Intercessor between ourselves and the Father in heaven. Otherwise I would've joined eastern orthodoxy.

[@kathyleicester7306]

Indigenous? Why does it matter who got somewhere first, as if that mattered to anything. Honestly, that trope is tiresome and useless, destructive even, as it does nothing but portray some people as innocent victims and everyone else as oppressors. All that is, is communism.

[@AlexStock187]

@@kathyleicester7306 It’s a often a shorthand for pre-civilized peoples. There’s no term you can use that can’t be disputed. I don’t think there’s anything special about a group because they arrive somewhere first, but I do think there’s something special about groups that are happy and healthy having a demonic/anti-human way of life forced upon them, often by those claiming to act on behalf of Christ.

[@SoldierDrew]

@@kathyleicester7306 Indigenous American distinguishes a race of people. Indians are from India. Native applies to anyone born and raised to a country. So euromericans & afromericans born to America can call themselves native american, as many do. But Indigenous American refers to the race of people federally recognized by the U.S. government as Indigenous Native Americans. It's not communist to identify a race of people. We have various Indigenous tribes/Indigenous Nations in north America which all belong to one race: Indigenous American race. DNA proves we're not Asian, European nor African. So the correct term is Indigenous Americans. You have indigenous Australian aborigines, indigenous hawaiian polynesians, indigenous europeans, indigenous japanese ainu. Indigenous Americans filling out medical or government forms, even to get a driver licence or join the military can't put white, black, asian, polynesian nor hispanic on the forms. The gov makes us check American Indian or Native American but Indians come from India and as many white & black americans born in america take offense and correctly point out they're Native too by being born here. The only term left to classify our race for police, medical, military and government identification is Indigenous American. I know some of you want everyone to just be labeled American & pretend race/ethnicity doesn't exist but How else should a cop put out a description of a suspect fleeing a crime? An American male in jeans & white t-shirt? Cause political correctness of the woke marxist left demands no more gender specific pronouns & wants to homogenize all genders, all races/ethnicities into one. That's the Globalist-Communist Alliance at work. Erase history, erase unique ethnicity/races, to revise the world. Indigenous history matters, Indigenous American classification for race matters and Communism wants to erase these things.

[@Shibby27ify]

Gurdjieff once stated something along the lines of: Religion is when a spirituality forgets that it was a path

[@mattspin5285]

More interesting to me than a supposed distinction between religion and spirituality, where religion is supposedly bad and spirituality good, is the question of a container. 'Spirituality' can be without a container - e.g. taking psychedelics and hoping for the best. A praxis without a container could be throwing your lot in with the guru and taking a big risk. We do need a container to provide the proven direction/shape of the discipline/practice.

[@daddycool228]

@@mattspin5285 yes, I think that is well put. I see it as the map and the territory.

[@georgegrader9038]

Good point Matt. I slogged all the way thru those gurdjieff books when I was a kid !

[@Prismatic_Truth]

Religion is the communal & structured aspect of spirituality. Spirituality is the mystical & personal aspect of religion. They are one.

[@GlobeHackers]

Great topic and discussion that I never thought I would listen to.

[@radphilospher]

For me, Christianity being the One true religion, and all other faiths are wrong is the biggest barrier. I'm fine with metaphors being sacred (don't agree at all with the "necessity" of literalism) , and fine with God and faith. It's just the totalitarian insistence that's it right and everything else is evil/demonic/lesser is the main problem.

[@Orthodoxi]

Jesus is God of gods and Lord of lords. All included. Simple.

[@LLlap]

@@Orthodoxi and Allah is Allah which obviously includes all gods and lords.

[@daddycool228]

Understood. I have had similar thoughts. Not the evile demonic stuff but being the ONE. Then I wonder why does it have to be seen in terms of all others are wrong? If we get out of that kind of thinking (which is also a kind of similar rejection mind set) then it might help our explorations.

[@michaelmethexis]

@@LLlap we’re not a Muslim civilization. We’ve had some cross pollination here and there but we are in no way inherently Muslim. Moot point.

[@georgegrader9038]

Historically Allah is the same monothheist desert malevolent God as Yaweh. Just a different take on it, 600 years AD instead of 0-200 AD... same brutal part of the world. I agree with the OP. No totalitarian insistence for me.

[@janetbaker1945]

Paul Kingsworth is preaching a revolution in a quiet voice. A national return to Christianity, not only Christianity but Orthodox Christianity. And may God bless and keep him for it, and further this cause. Those commenters here who casually praise his 'authenticity,' better praise is to do it, to embrace Christianity, which means seeking sainthood, the whole works, the whole nine yards, including martyrdom if necessary, and if not, then a kind of martyrdom in lifestyle. Christianity is all or nothing. And yet it is the only thing to save our nation. Not everyone can live up to it, but no nation in the old Church did, and what is needed is only a tipping point, a number needed to turn things around. It means everybody has to live under that banner, but most will fall, and fall again and again. Only a few will be saints. But they are the lifeblood of a nation.

[@timthomas924]

I hear him say take a leap of faith. Chrisianity is rooted in history and evidence. Faith is reasonable and the teaching of the bible can tested.

[@DerekJFiedler]

33:10 I find that argument is best served to convince myself. Other means like beauty do a better job of impacting others.

[@He.knows.nothing]

I grew up Christian and my whole life I had experienced a god shaped hole that I couldn't fill until I eventually left the faith. Kingsnorth and Pageau have both done excellent jobs showing me that there are still ancient forms of Christianity that can certainly fill that hole, but I just can't bring myself back to it having experienced the trauma of its modernized institutions. I can no longer accept the totality of its narrative. Our freedom and individuality necessitate that we each wrestle with god in our own unique ways and I have been called by it to carve my own path up the mountain. I will learn everything I can from these thinkers and their faiths to aid me in doing it. Thank you for producing this content! It truly is revolutionary in our present moment.

[@rebeccagreer4668]

I pray for the deeply sincere truth seekers to truly know what’s missing

[@ConsciousnessWatch]

Powerful. Thank you.

[@johnmcgee5236]

I got very close to dying...no apparent way to survive . I gave up surviving...thinking stopped....knowing came from nowhere ... I "got" we are eternal.... Fear if death is gone..

[@ladyfaye8248]

" Where have we gone wrong?" Humanity needs to let go of its survivalist strategy, and lose its fear of death. The implications of that alteration are immense. Yes, a simpler way of life would be facilitated, and true ethical values could come to the fore.

[@user-yp7vf5lo8h]

I discovered Paul last night and I have been listening to his talks all night. I was born in a communist country and brought up to be atheist. Throughout my life I have repeatedly sensed there is something out there, and there're just too many patterns in life for it to be random. I have had a few strange lucky encounters as a child and they were glimpses into another world that no science can explain (trust me, I tried). However despite all that I fought religion with a passion all my life. I was looking for an atheist 'church' where they teach good old moral values without the 'superstitious bit' when I read a sermon by mistake and it blew my theory out of water. I then found C. S. Lewis, whose books are like a torch in the darkness that helped me reach the light. I now realise that all my life I have been fighting against God when he tried to reach me, and he never gave up on me. Just like C. S. Lewis himself, I gave up the fight. The more I read the more I wish I gave up the fight sooner. I think a large part of the reason religion put me off is the way many churches are run and the people who claim to be God's servants who run their churches. It's hard to find one that totally convince you of God's true message. I haven't taken the last step forward yet but I'm fairly convinced I'm on the right path. With His guidance I will join him.

[@susan174]

I am a Child of Light, striving to follow the Way. It is new information to me how early followers of Christ referred to themselves. What an accurate and universal/unifying way to identify oneself and one’s path.

[@JRUSSELL15]

Really good interview and very uplifting

[@abi19gotez]

I agree that what the speaker says about a deep sence of awe, and appreciation for nature comes from our Adam, spiritual, heritage, as good shepperds towards the rest of creation. Yet, as far as true Christian culture, we would need to look back at the lifeatyles of nomadic Jewish. The had a means for surviving, tradding, travelling, exchanging stories, and loving live which came across as surprising for people who called themse'ves civilized. You could say they were hated for dissing the big powers of the day, and yet still, living a relatively high quality of life. Jesus understood that anyone who approached the Christians with humility could, in fact, adapt to their lifestyle, as long as the most extreme rituals were not required of them. As long as they felt the intrinsic desire to abide by the Christian ethics, he would accept them as so. Yet today, the economic and political principles, at the base of Christian life, are hardly a part of anyones faith. Most people are like the man with many possessions who said he wanted to follow Him, yet would not do without his material riches. Many come close as far as some of the ethics, but would not give up their old life for Christ.

[@Lessofloulou]

Thank You Thank You so much for this🙏

[@heressomestuffifound]

I strongly disagree with this guy’s conclusions but he is clearly intelligent and this was an excellent interview! Thank you!

[@kathyleicester7306]

Yeah, me, too. When he talks about some sort of climate catastrophe at the hands of humans I just grit my teeth. People have zero influence on the climate. Zero. Carbon is irrelevant. It's a globalist authoritarian scam. I do enjoy the discussion enough to overlook that bit of insanity.

[@heressomestuffifound]

@@kathyleicester7306 The conclusions I'm talking about are his religious positions, I patently disagree with everything you said.

[@PeasantByTheSouthernSea]

I recommend looking into Kingsnorth's work. He has a lot of wise things to say about humans and our relationship to the earth, although this particular conversation is not my favourite

[@subplantant]

@@kathyleicester7306 This is very confused. 1) Carbon has been involved in all the natural changes in Earth's climate since the beginning. 2) Humans are a natural phenomenon like any other - a natural phenomenon which happens to be releasing lots of sequestered carbon back into the atmosphere; rather like a growing swarm of little volcanoes constantly erupting since the industrial revolution.

[@jondoe6926]

@@kathyleicester7306 How could helping the environment be authoritarian? Forget I asked. I'm sure you'll invent some nonsensical bullshit.

[@aniccadance13]

I think to believe is not an intellectual act, it's grace..Divine grace and when it happens we no longer have doubts.

[@craig6037]

Great discussion. Thanks

[@evanhadkins5532]

A lot of the turning away from Christianity was in the name of Christian ethics (Christendom wasn't famous for incarnating the spirit of the Christ) - there is no way back to Christendom ('Christian civilisation'). Does ethics need a base? (A view of reality / metaphysics / ontology). I think most of us feel that it does and that materialism doesn't cut it. One person dealing with this is your recent guest Iain McGilchrist. My perspective is that the guts of the issue is that the Western view of the person is excessively individualist - we need to see that not only do we 'have' relationships; we also are our relationships.

[@evanhadkins5532]

@@martin92177 Thanks, I'll have a look at it.

[@stefanovergari9815]

The concept that we were not ready eat from the apple from the tree of the good and the evil, the forbidden tree of knowledge...we were not ready for this godlike power that is pur immagination, that's mindblowing, the ego, and that in the end is similar to budhism, i feel like i want to get deeper into the myth of the Paradise Lost.

[@Lessofloulou]

I became a Catholic after reading “7 Story Mountain” by Thomas Merton. I continued to grow in Jungian work as well as Conscious Dance (Embodied Somatic Work). The Sacramental,Mystical, and Psychospiritual aspects have Nourished me in a Contained way.

[@janetbaker1945]

I hope you are hearing what he is saying about practices like this.

[@ransetruman2984]

good God thank you so much

[@georgegriffin5282]

There are two approaches at play with spiritual belief and religious practice which I tend to think on. One is the collective practice and beliefs of groups which are influenced by the collective needs of the group. Then there is the beliefs and practices of each individual which are influenced by the history and experiences of the individual. To compare for example how people think and react to spirituality in the U.K. as opposed to America, which was mentioned indicates a lack perspective on the base of the individual belief system. It is the individual which in accordance with doctrine which will be finally judged and not the entire culture. I wonder about these factors.

[@grahammoffat9752]

Thanks for inviting Paul on to the show.......he's definitely got an interesting story to tell and I think he's right (on his own terms) that his written pieces are richer and deeper than what can be achieved by interview. I feel I have to comment on Pauls answer to the question of morality and ethics in Christianity both in what it has contributed in action in the past and on its current commentary on such things as the culture wars and the loss of indigineity. I found Pauls answer frustratingly defensive and perhaps even a little offensive. As someone who has recently begun to experience the utter heartache and subsequent heartheal that a relationship with Christ can bring, the feeling that there should be an instant apology for all injustices caused looms very large in my heart and conscience. I cannot fathom how someone who claims to be feeling and believing wholeheartedly in the being of Christ (Paul and others too) would not immediately apologise PROFUSELY for the profound trauma that Christianity in its various practices has inflicted and continues to do so, in many communities throughout the world. It would be my intention for a 'rebooted' christianity (Davids Words) to have at its heart a PROFOUND connection and devotion to atonement and reckoning with the pain caused. It would need to be 1500 years of humility and service before it even began to think or conceive of civilisation rebuilding......it would have no right to offer such pronouncements. As of yet I have no affiliation to any church or body or institution that shapes the rules of my relationshlp with Christ.............. I take my lead from the connection developed so far in terms of the simplicity of humility, love and service that Christ seems to offer in the most profound way. Blessings to all. 💚

[@daddycool228]

Interesring comments. 1500 years of humility? You put a number on it? Is that God's will or your will? Blessings to you

[@grahammoffat9752]

@@daddycool228 Yeah I'm playing God with my humility 😂 good point, Hypocrisy noted. I think it was a numerical and direct response to Pauls figure that he mentioned in the interview about the length of time Christendom has spent carrying out its mission to convert the rest of the world regardless of the trauma caused. Thanks for your enquiring question that also pulled me up too.

[@daddycool228]

@@grahammoffat9752 I want to apologise to you though. We all have work to do :-) it is good work. Blessings

[@cozzwozzle]

I hear what you’re saying, but what about all the wonderful, generous, and charitable works that Christians + churches have done over that time?

[@grahammoffat9752]

@@cozzwozzle Indeed they have and I imagine will continue to do so hopefully. I have however never seen or read of the wider christian community acknowledging and deeply grieving for past traumas caused in its name. To actively grieve and show genuine remorse would not in any way discount the tremendous work already accomplished, this act of humility and love would possibly even endear people to connect with a renewed hope and belief in Christianity..............maybe??

[@minckaassetintegrityconsul2149]

This fellow brings lots of Qs: - Why the West rejected Christianity in the first place? - From the personal perspective I can see this guys turning into another religion down the road. He is a curious and courageous.

[@BhutanBluePoppy]

Possibly Europe rejected Christianity because we’re individualistic and have our material needs satisfied. There’s also the fact that people don’t tend to value what they take for granted

[@andreedelslund2138]

Thank you so much 🙏

[@janetbaker1945]

Traditional Catholics also read the lives of the saints. I'm reading right now Sigrid Undset's life of St. Catherine of Siena for our ladies book club at my SSPX church.

[@tommackling]

Respect to all, the integrity, the honesty and openness, especially on the part of your guest. I expect I would find much to appreciate in Orthodox Christianity, as another individual who has come to embrace Jesus Christ as my Lord, even though I consider myself to be a Gnostic Christian. And, although I understand, to some degree, the aversion and disdain of the orthodox to the "heretical" gnostics, I still feel it is excessive, misplaced and ultimately misguided. Basically, gnostics believe that the spirit of Christ can directly "visit", "instruct" and "bless" an individual, and that such a "direct encounter" is more profoundly meaningful than less direct "instruction" and "inspiration" through the institution of the church. The church was highly skeptical of individuals who claimed to have experienced the benefit of direct encounter with Christ, and disavowed such claims as blasphemy and heresy, reserving "religious authority" to the church, through the bishops, which they argued, exclusively held their religious authority as being in a direct succession of the apostles. I found "the Gnostic Gospels" by Elaine Pagels enjoyable and, for me, I think, worth reading. It provides a similar, speculative account of why the Nag Hamadi religious texts, (e.g. the gospel according to Thomas Didimus) and their followers, were, aparently regarded as heretical by those seeking to establish a canonical Christian church. Anyway, I think I would enjoy hearing the basic details of the personal experiences that "drove" Paul to Christianity. I know such things are perhaps "intensely personal" and maybe difficult to talk about or share. It seems so for me ( with respect to my "world shattering" experiences ). But I can't seem to "get over" my own "journey", I still contemplate the possibility of writing a book, for example. Because I resonate with Paul's assertion that he felt dragged, rather unwillingly, to his current understanding or belief. And in my case, well, it's quite the epic battle, where Lucifer, defeated, surrenders himself to God, to be the willing servant of His will. And, when I listen to videos like this one, and listen to the words of people like your guest, and hear the suggestion that, at some point, one simply must make a "leap of faith", it still occurs to me that, perhaps I am somehow unique, in that I could not believe and needed proof; which I received until, despite my extreme reluctance, I was nolonger able to doubt. I suppose I really (probably) do have an important story that I should (perhaps) tell, but, I think I have some good excuses for my "procrastination"... ( including, some portions of "my story" seem "intensely personal", psychologically traumatic and perhaps somewhat difficult to "revisit", as well as me, being reasonably modest, and also aware that I am somewhat flawed and susceptible to taking an ego-centric perspective, somewhat afraid that my narrative would be tainted by my ego, of me "glamorizing" my former self, etc. (and certainly if I were to "place myself in the past" in order to better recall my thoughts and feelings and experiences, well, I already know that there were periods back then when, perhaps as a kind of self-defense mechanism, my ego "knew no bounds"), and certainly if my story could actually help other people to better understand their own relationship with God (and terrifying forces that could destroy them), then, it seems to me, that my story might also hurt some people or lead some down the wrong path. And so, I have been waiting, hoping that perhaps the day may come when I will posess enough talent and grace that I might tell my story properly, and with genuine wholly beneficial effect (if such is possible). Pretty much for these reasons, at least, so I tell myself, it is that I have largely kept silent. The extent to which I am disclosing here, even that which I have here made public, is, I imagine, a result of my desire to share my "story" and the inspiration I received from listening to this interview and discussion. Anyway, for what ever it may be worth, I offer to you what blessings I may confer. May you be blessed and recieve mercy and grace, humility, gratitude and comfort. ... and Cheers 😃

[@neththom999]

I would love to see some "In defense of Gnosticism" content. It gets unfairly maligned and dismissed by many Christians and even non-Christian cultural Christians. They seem to have no concept of gnosis whatsoever, I made the mistake of bringing it up with some Sola Scriptura friends and all I got was blank stares. I suppose it is the polar opposite version of Christianity to theirs. It surprises me to what degree the majority of Christians either defer to the authority of the Church or to the selectively edited Bible, and if you do otherwise you're labelled a "heretic", how absurd, honestly. Sorry to attach this combativeness to your more classy comment, I was just excited to see a pro-gnostic stance expressed in the Rebel Wisdom / Pageau sphere. Let us not forget that Christ did not reject the inquisitiveness of St. Thomas when he doubted, demanding direct knowledge of the resurrection, but rather happily obliged. I'm going to check out that book. Good luck with your work.

[@tommackling]

@@neththom999 I heard somewhere, I forget exactly where, but I believe it was probably on some radio program, - it was years ago, anywhere that some "religious scholars" suspected that the account given in, I believe it was two or maybe three, (John, and maybe Mathew or Mark?) of the (traditional) gospels where Thomas, (the doubter) needed to insert his arm into the spear wound in Christ's resurrected body, in order to really believe that it was indeed Him, in the flesh, that it reasonably likely that these were "embelleshments" which had been added to address a "political issue"... Which was that, aparently, ( Sorry, I'm not much of a religious scholar myself, and can't provide the proper citations here, but, for any "citations please" critics, please, this is just a quick yt comment, not a thesis,..., maybe a cursory investigation into Saint Thomas and the early church, e.g. via Google, would suffice, anyway), in the early days of Christianity, the apostles "split up" going their seperate ways and spreading their own versions of Christianity, and supposedly, Thomas was "teaching" that it was the spirit of Christ that had resurrected and which had appeared to them (the disciples) rather than his physical body. And aparently this "the flesh itself must be resurrected, not just some disembodied ghost" was a bone of contention. The (belief in, or recognition of the) "persistence" or reality of spirit or the soul can be readily traced back to the ancient Greeks (e.g. Plato's Phaedo) , and aparently even earlier ancient Egyptian (and I suppose Indian Hindu or Vedic) mystic texts. A number of short stories of the late "crack pot" genius sci-fi writer Philp K. Dick, make heavy reference to the missing logos, (presumably the Nag Hamadi library), and gnostic / occult Christianity. And famed psychologist Carl Jung, was also, most likely someone who identified as a Gnostic. There is some video (now historical) interview floating around on KZbin, where the interviewer asks if "Do you believe in God?" and he answers with "a gnostic reply": "No, I do not believe, I know. I know that God exists".

[@neththom999]

@@tommackling Ahh, good to know. I actually wasn't thinking in those terms when I wrote the comment about Saint Thomas, it was the symbolism of the doubter being the knower and not merely the believer that stuck in my head over the years. Quite synchromystically (or not, who knows) that point of contention that you referenced regarding the incorporeality of Christ vs the bodily resurrection came up during the sample portion of "The Gnostic Gospels" which I looked up right after posting, causing me to instantly regret saying it, but as you point out, it's just the youtube comment section lol. That has always been an issue for me and makes me lean more gnostic than not. The reality of the spirit, even the spirit conceived of and experienced as more real than the physical world is a mainstay in "eastern religions" for sure. Buddhism is very gnostic in temperament and has left a lasting impression on me over the years, I was a defacto Buddhist for a long time but it never felt like home. Again why Gnostic Christianity, or even something like simple Esoteric Christianity is so attractive as it provides a path for westerners towards something like enlightenment, or at least soul evolution which consists of an ever increasing apprehension of universal truths about Being as such via direct experience and intellectual intuition. PKD was a creative genius, absolutely. "Crackpot" is a word only fit for use only by philistines in my opinion. There is always some method in madness. Idk if you've happened upon this audiobook but the reader's voice is perfect in this: kzbin.info/www/bejne/bqK2lXd3jpqKbJI

[@neththom999]

@@tommackling And by the way I have to point out that your name is Tom, i.e. "Thomas", which happens to be my Christian name as well, and here we are talking about Saint Thomas!

[@tommackling]

@@neththom999 oh really! Yeah, funny. I also noticed that the guest's name (the "pagan" who turned Christian) was Paul, and the apostle Paul, (formerly Saul) was supposed to be the Roman who never met Christ in "the flesh" but was struck temporarily blind by a manifestation of Christ's spirit while he was on the road to Damascus, and Paul was an archetypal convert (from anti-Christian to pro-Christian). And this conversion event even follows the Gnostic playbook (I.e. direct inspiration by the spirit of Christ).

[@first_namelast_name3760]

ORTHODOXY OR "DEATH" 2 Peter 1:4 "Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires."

[@msal4112]

I'd like to suggest the voice of John Philip Newell- a wise elder. Reconciling the belief that Nature and Christianity are at odds. His teaching is traditional, just not the one most of experienced.

[@Andrew-mv2qb]

I dare say a better term to differentiate Christian religions is: Latin Christianity rather than western Christianity. The Latin Christians sort to conquer and convert, this stand apart from Orthodox Christianity.

[@markweswhit869]

This gent would be a good one to get on to talk about Methodism in the 1700s. “David Neil Hempton FRHistS is a Northern Irish historian of evangelicalism, dean of Harvard Divinity School, and fellow of the Royal Historical Society”

[@Philibuster92]

Through a Jungian Perspective no Kierkegaardian notion of faith is needed in order to experience the contents of the Christian religion. Even the most mystical claims.

[@georgegrader9038]

Great point. My brother & I have been arguing this for decades.

[@howardbabcom]

What our culture needs to engage with is the manner of Christianity embodied in the work of writers like Chesterton and Lewis. The consolation of truth remains - we just need to relent to find what is genuine.

[@Orthoindian]

Am I the only one who thinks the beard of the interviewer is near to perfect?

[@Orthoindian]

@@OrwellsHousecat beard lol

[@Orthoindian]

@@OrwellsHousecat what? 🤣

[@zenrobotninja]

"a society founded on Christianity"....love it when someone starts of by saying something so stupid you know you don't need to listen to the rest of the podcast. Great time saver. Yours truly, the Greeks and Romans

[@Lascts25]

See: Dominion by Tom Holland

[@jacquedegatineau9037]

stuff has happened in the last 2021 years. lots of stuff.

[@tobygoessailing]

@@jacquedegatineau9037 So you're sceptical that Jesus fulfilled his youthful porpoise?

[@johnbuckner2828]

It might have been more palatable if he’d included the Greco-Roman influence from the axial age, but I think it’d be pretty kind of oblivious to deny that the culture funneled & developed down through christendom was a key factor in the foundation of current western society.

[@jacquedegatineau9037]

@@tobygoessailing a man of culture.

[@mrb532]

In regards to Peterson, I've also noticed that he is actively warding of Jesus and doing his best to just intellectualize the stories of Jesus as just some useful parables. It seems to me that he is terrified of the idea that Christ is alive and active, and this idea is too radical and paradigm-shifting for him to willingly accept. He is like Jacob and is wrestling with God lol

[@mondopinion3777]

So true. And yet I think he may be one of the rare soul forged by God to meet the need of his time, and maybe that is why the leap of faith is very, very hard for him. With his unique abilities he has restructured the lives of millions of lost young people, and brought many of them into faith.

[@derosa1989]

Thesis: Paul Kingsnorth Antithesis: Twitter Synthesis: Rebel Wisdom

[@georgegrader9038]

"Integrate not dissociate"

[@peterweston1356]

I’m not a Christian but there is no question that Christianity does have a ‘deep mystical heart’. My question to any of the folk here is why does it seem that Christianity as interpreted by most Christian sects (is that the right word?… e.g. Catholics, Protestants, other orthodox Christian worshippers) seem to ignore that most powerful part of the worship.

[@daddycool228]

Maybe because humans regularly mistake the map for the territory. And we are imperfect and fallible.

[@jasonsanders8091]

There is the sense that people have different temperaments, different abilities. The deep mystical path, the way of Mary, is a pretty tough path. Not everyone is cut out for that! Some people if they were to join a monastery or convent would have a breakdown. So the way of Martha is available, and is still worthwhile. There are some great Christian householders.

[@Prismatic_Truth]

Simply, it is because they have been cut off from the roots of the Tree for centuries and are therefore unable to draw spiritual nourishment from the mystical well of Truth deposited by Christ in His Church. They are dead/dying branches.

[@peterweston1356]

@@Prismatic_Truth thank you for your reply @~Mary~

[@EnemyOfEldar]

However much I love Jesus and am attracted to Christianity, I cannot accept that a person "came back to life" after dying. If Jesus' return was pitched as a vision, then I could get in on it. But saying he physically rose in the flesh after dying? I personally have always found that insulting to the billions of human that have lived and died, never to be remembered or returned. That the death of one man can "save" us all. That it has cosmic significance in a universe so vast that notion that we have any significance is laughable. I wish there was a Christianity-lite where you accept Jesus was a good man, the best, worth emulating, pointing you to the way, but that all the metaphysical claims are snuffed out. When someone can act well despite the fact they are not promised eternal life for doing so, then they are truly good. Great conversation. Loved it. Thank you, RW and Paul, so much.

[@DaveK548]

Go to a Unitarian fellowship. They believe that Jesus was a good man. When you’re ready for the real thing, check out an Orthodox Church. The Orthodox understanding and experience of the Cross and the Resurrection is very different from what you’re assuming. God bless!

[@jasonsanders8091]

God is ultimate reality, "emeth" the bedrock truth. What is impossible for mankind is possible for God.

[@Prismatic_Truth]

You're not ready.

[@philipgahan9649]

God is not a title or a thing. God is just ancient word for the infinite. Keeping that in mind, many ancient books start to make sense. Their profound message laden metaphors become clear. You don't need any established religion to enable an understanding of who, what and why we are. All practices are distractions that just get in the way.

[@Knight766]

I think that even if you believe that Jesus was just a man, that doesn't invalidate his message or his teachings.

[@tbayley6]

Part of the teaching may be to challenge the very notion that ANYONE is "just a man"? Our mechanistic tradition is to reduce, reduce, until what we're left with is uniform and ultimately inconsequential.

[@georgegrader9038]

Indeed, it's just that the message worms hat it's way into ideology... oppressed become oppressor - the situation is hopeless and people need to bravely face it. The world is a stage and there is a lot of purposeful pretending going on. Even by the director.

[@andrewblake2254]

This guy is like the ball in a pinball machine. it will be something else next week.

[@Lessofloulou]

There is a show here on KZbin called The Journey Home - many stories of conversion

[@mudhut4491]

The thing about keeping things "psychological" is that no one knows what that means. You either reduce and bastardize it, or you realize we live through the psyche (the soul) and that it's real. When people say something is "just psychological" it's completely to miss the point of the psyche.

[@JEKAZOL]

I like this dude.

[@angelwings3128]

Orthodox Christianity goes back to the original Church. It was previously together with the Catholics until the Great Schism in 1054. The Orthodox Faith has remained true to its original doctrines & teachings. It really doesn’t get better than that. ✝️🙏🏻

[@FirstnameLastname-py3bc]

It doesn't go back to original Church, it is the Original Church

[@MsHeaddy]

Paul Kingsnorth, Jordan Peterson and Bruce Gore are all excellent for deep learning.😊👍

[@markweswhit869]

This is an excellent conversation. As a follow up could you get someone to talk about methodism within the Church of England in the 1700s, the good, the bad and the ugly. It was a century of upheaval, England and France are a stark contrast.

[@carolyng.6405]

Fascinating talk. Although raised Catholic, I just can't wrap my head around taking a leap of faith to believe in the resurrection story, to believe that one dude was THE only one to "die for our sins", along with all the associated beliefs. According to this talk, belief in the story is a necessary component to being a true Christian. I find Buddhism to fit the bill more readily, particularly Theravada Buddhism, which doesn't require one to believe a story; rather to have the willingness to put some trust in the path laid out by the Buddha.

[@GeneseeBen]

@@Joeonline26 fear

[@LLlap]

@@Joeonline26 christian does a pikachu face after being called out for their usual marketing practices.

[@LLlap]

@@Joeonline26 your state of confusion is pretty clear. I'm not sure I'll be able to help. I'll try. Fearmongering is the usual marketing practice.

[@LLlap]

@@Joeonline26 I have no idea what you are on about. Are you drunk perhaps?

[@lilyroa1960]

isn't it all a story and you choose what to beleive in according to your experinces in life? You can find miracles in any discipline. GOD/Karma

[@Monosscema2012]

sounds like, we need to recognise that we have to take responsibility of our emotions in life and how we make others feel. if we can manage this and understanding psychology on how we as humans tick, then we would respect each other more consciously and for a greater purpose.

[@markbrock8662]

I would posit that everyone does create or maybe better, discover their own spiritual reality. Or not. Following religious principles only by rote is a sort of abdication of seeking or discovering your own personal spiritual connection with God. And I would add that a true discovery of this connection produces a common result universally. The love of God, inwardly and outwardly. You will know them by their fruit as it were. Faith is believing, and that is a good start. Knowing ones connection with God is above faith, the kingdom of heaven. This is not intellectual knowing. It comes with the grace of God.

[@EberHampton]

Great discussion. Thank you so much. Rev Ed Trevors is on KZbin with short talks that to me sound closer to the way of Jesus than to toxic so- called "christianity" IMHO the way is real and it's all about relationships.

[@peterhardie4151]

Grasping towards spirituality.

[@corb5654]

I was a pagan = I believed weird things without evidence. Now I'm a Christian = I believe weird things without evidence. Makes sense

[@ikyiky167]

Spot on - as soon as you inject this dependency on faith, you just jump from one fairy story to another. This whole thought that the West has delivered something special just doesn’t stack up - it’s just the human story on the continuum.

[@LLlap]

He said himself that he just wanted to worship something. Give the slave a master to make him happy.

[@BhutanBluePoppy]

@@LLlap Not slavery, just reality (which is indeed unpalatable to many). “You’ve got to serve someone”. Bob Dylan

[@LLlap]

@@BhutanBluePoppy "I`m a slave for you" - Brittney Spears.

[@Sherifaga]

Very brave question, Teri.

[@kenfalloon3186]

Yep. A lot of people died for it..... and killed too. It was compulsory for centuries upon pain of death and that went well didn't it?

[@lilyroa1960]

true and it's still not going well is it?