Panzer 58 - From Success to Scandal

Panzer 58, and it's descendants the Panzer 61 and Panzer 68, were the first (and last) series of armoured vehicles that Switzerland ever produced. The aim was to create the perfect medium tank, but the success of this project is still argued about to this day after the vehicle was involved in one of Switzerland's greatest political scandals.
DISCORD: / discord
Chapters:
00:00 Welcome to Switzerland
00:30 The Swiss Scheme
01:45 A New Plan?
02:59 KW30
04:30 Indien-Panzer
05:04 Panzer 58
05:45 Panzer 61
07:20 Panzer 68
09:12 Scandal!
10:10 Panzer 68/88
10:25 Panzer 2000
10:57 Variants
11:30 Outro
Sources:
Swiss National Archives
yuripasholok.livejournal.com/...
Schweizer Radio und Fernsehen Archives
tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwa...
tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwa...
All content is presented in historical context for educational purposes. All footage is owned by it's copyright holder and is used in this channel under "fair use".
Music by Epidemic Sound

[@genericpersonx333]

From what I can tell, the main reason Belleville washers were not used more is simply economy of scale. Torsion-bar suspensions were well-developed in all the major tank-producing nations. Torsion bars were relatively cheap, reliable, and could handle all that was being asked of them and more, so no one really felt a need to not use them. Bellevilles, while a known technology for some years in industrial applications, would have taken some years of development just to be sure of matching existing torsion-bar systems. Given the torsion bars worked and worked well, and Bellevilles offered no obvious advantage worth the risks and cost of development, the torsion bars remained favored.

[@lisandro2485]

Torsión bar suspentions give more SIDE climbing capacities to the suspensión... Side slope is normally 30 degrees, meanwhile springs give 20 degrees at most compromising the vehicle stability.

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

Also they look like they have to be replaced often as they are a bunch of baffles not one springe or bar.

[@kolinmartz]

@@GreenBlueWalkthroughand replacing a torsion bar is easier than replacing a stack of Belleville washers.

[@ugk1106]

I started basic training with Pz.61 in Thun (seen the tank hangars in vid) We were the last tank-school on that type. (1989) later units directly trained basic on Leo2 or Pz.68/88GT. Our Division later converted to Pz.68 (small turret) Though the lack of stabilisator we preferred Pz.61civer Pz.68 in life-round shooting on range but preffered the stabil. Pz.68 in tereain training.

[@systemhalodark]

I swear that if one were to ask a child to draw the most stereotypically tankish tank possible, it would definitely look like the PZ61.

[@Aqueox]

Either that or a T-55.

[@chaosXP3RT]

The Swiss adventure into tank building is very interesting! They learned valuable lessons later than other it seems, like removing the 20mm gun, having the electronic issues and, even with the Panzer 68 just looking a bit outdated even for it's time. It's turns out that building tanks from scratch is extremely difficult, which is why we generally have just the same 4 or 5 tank standards in the world today. The American tanks, the Germans tanks, the Soviet tanks and the French tanks. This is changing a bit, with the Chinese, Japanese, and South Koreans building very unique tanks in their own rights, but even today, it's a bit easy to see where they got their original blueprints from!

[@emergency_broadcast_system]

Would have been interesting to see if the kept it up though and made their own unique design since the purpose and usage for their tanks is so much different compared to everyone else

[@dougstubbs9637]

The Belleville Washer System was the last, great German under pressure designs, which like the Stg 45 was ignored by those who now held the technology. Can’t be sure, but was a development for E 100, Simple, light, scaleable, capable of absorbing huge forces for the size and weight. Look at the S Tank, and think replace washers with a hydraulic system. Yes, Belleville has been used. Ditto, MBT 70.

[@harmdallmeyer6449]

From my understanding, one of its few drawbacks is it's limited travel. A Beville-washer system just can't compress as far as, for example, a standard coil spring. That may be the reason it fell out of favor in Tank developement.

[@mike2228]

​@@harmdallmeyer6449 if they overcompress they fail. Spring washers collapse at a certain point and will never recover their spring. Combine that with the need to make stacks to get enough compression from their limited range and it seems like maybe this is why they never caught on. Good in a pinch, maybe

[@harmdallmeyer6449]

@@mike2228 yeah, some of the advantages definitely seem worth trying to make the system work. Maybe we'll see some more designs in the future.

[@johnyricco1220]

One problem was it wore out faster. But that’s not a big issue so long as they are regularly replaced. Their performance was comparable to torsion bars in the 60s, but by the 80s the torsion bars on the new generation of faster tanks had improved substantially. Compression was okay but rebound was inferior. The Germans experimented with improved belleville washers on a Marder IFV by putting a coil spring inside the doughnut hole of the washer stack, but it was not adopted. Probably because by then if you wanted an external suspension, hydro was the better choice. Basically it had potential, but it was under developed and it’s opportunity has passed.

[@TotalRookie_LV]

@@harmdallmeyer6449 Hmm, from what I get from videos from Ukraine, limited travel is really bad off-road, especially in mud (and on stones too, like in Israel). Maybe those are not such a big issues in Switzerland, but in Eastern European mud T-64 turns out to be better off-road and less likely to throw track despite having smaller wheels than T-72, T-80 and T-90. On the downside, T-64 is worse on paved roads, due to construction of it's wheels and how they roll over every track of caterpillar - a lot of vibration and heating - may even catch fire, if axis of the wheels are not lubed properly.

[@mattskustomkreations]

I think the national redoubt model is still solid. There are tunnels in the mountains everywhere. It is still a costly proposition to invade IMO.

[@ChauncyFatsack]

I think I read some where about the Bellville washers being adjustable but only in a limited way compared to other suspensions along with temperature having a negative effect on the metal washers elasticity in colder weather and then heating up and loosing strength under high load IE prolonged abuse but if you really want to know ask the Chieftain lol great video

[@RedWrenchFilms]

Usually I would but in his Panzer 61 walk around he says he has no idea why other vehicles didn’t use it! My so called oracle has failed me. This is a great suggestion though, didn’t consider the effect of environment on the washers.

[@ChauncyFatsack]

@@RedWrenchFilms yeah when I first saw his Panzer video and the Bellville washers it gave me an idea for an automotive project I am working on so thats why I looked into the washers and their history and applications and thats where I read about the temperature effects.it just so happens that some automotive engines use Bellville type washers on rocker arms and push rod springs much smaller ones though lol they are an awesome design for many different applications with no moving parts.they definitely deserve more attention and learning about the Swiss Redoubt was so cool because ive never new about it until your video.cheers.

[@baixintong1553]

@@RedWrenchFilms this seem to the problem of the travel distance (movable distance of the suspension arm that will dictate the vehicle’s cross country mobility) of the suspension system. The washer on pz58 is a kind of modified vertical spring suspension that suffers from insufficient travel distance as a class. Because the space constraint on the system forbids you from adding a powerful spring that will occupy a large space or length. On the contrary torsion bars could occupy the entire width of the vehicle.

[@newhonk]

I love your videos man, please don’t ever stop making new ones

[@RedWrenchFilms]

Appreciate it :) I hope I can keep going

[@luvr381]

Germany was experimenting during WW2 with the Belleville washer system on it's E series tanks.

[@swisstraeng]

Not exactly regarding that the scandal. The main gun was not fired from turning the heater on. The report talked about the electronics of the heater and the main gun being on the same PCB, and thus they feared that it could cause issues. This report was written when the Pz68 was still a prototype. Something which was corrected for production. The main issue regarding the 68 was that, it was soon to become obsolete for its time. The same was true for the Leopard 1 tank and the M60. This simply was due to the russian T-64 which essentially made other unarmored "see first shoot first" design oriented western tanks sort of obsolete. The Pz68 was also not the greatest, because it was essentially an old design that was reworked again and again. It did have a loader cupola that was similar to the commander cupola, which did allow the loader to be a more useful crew member when no reloading is needed.

[@facundocamilotto1315]

War Thunder: tranks for the info bro 😎 -adds a new sub tech tree for germany

[@tatsu111]

please

[@iwantmynametobeaslongaspos7194]

Can you do a video on the Somua SM. I love the tank but I can find almost no info on it

[@justyouraveragehuman4069]

Underrated channel & under discussed vehicles. Never ever heard of that panzer 2000 tho…looks like the German upgraded m48 super. Thanks Red love your videos man keep it up! :)

[@spacecase13]

This whole channel is wonderful, consistent and amazing. I have now watched every video here, and I am looking forward to more!!

[@coreybenson3122]

That must have been terrifying to have flipped the cabin heater on have the main gun accidentally discharge. Everyone in a mile radius probably needed new pants.

[@lucariolps277]

That point seems to be very overblown. From what I read, it never happend.. But it could theoretically happen because of how things were hooked up

[@donallen8414]

If you ever been inside a tank you'll know that the gun is only loaded just before firing. The reason is that different types of ammo is used for different targets. During targeting of an enemy, nobody will switch on a heater or any other electric system.

[@AverageSpaniard0505]

your videos keep getting better, and at a constant ratio!

[@philo6850]

Great detail on the design engineering of this tank and some of the problems encountered along the way, another awesome presentation!

[@johnharrison6745]

Could you do an in-depth [as in-depth as possible, anyway] video on the French A.R.L. 44 tank? I'm honestly intrigued by that thing.....

[@torinjones3221]

0:10 wrong. They just haven't officially been involved. The Swiss practice armed neutrality meaning they will still fight to defend their own land but won't go on the offensive. And they will do so neutrally take for example ww2 where the Swiss attacked both allied and axis planes flying in Swiss airspace. Infact during the outbreak of ww2 Switzerland mobilised 850,000 men in only 3 days.

[@derrickstorm6976]

Yea but they were never in a declared war... State of emergency is not a declaration of war

[@joona70747]

​@@derrickstorm6976declaring wars is incredibly rare. You can argue about the swiss not being involved, but the fact that war was not declared is not a good argument

[@tasman006]

Very well done vid on this tank and its derivitives that most people would not now about. Big thumbs up from me.

[@jackjones9460]

Excellent video! I greatly enjoyed it.

[@jasonz7788]

Great work Sir thank

[@troyschlatter6816]

As a swiss im so proud

[@ReviveHF]

Panzer 2000's turret reminded me of the Israeli Magach 6GB and Magach 3 without the applique armour.

[@MrIwan18]

Thank you for this great info!

[@bimbaman]

I don’t know why but we have a panzer 61 in Israel tank museum

[@donallen8414]

Friendly exchange with Israel, as happened with other "things" 😘

[@polishpepe239]

love your stuff

[@ONI_002]

never knew the swiss had a tank programm. thanks for bringing this to us!

[@Gurfi28]

Swiss military industry used to be quite good. Sadly most companies have been sold to foreign companies.

[@saladiniv7968]

you can say what you want about the panzer 68, but it's the most tank looking tank.

[@rgriffinRETIRED_SHEEPDOG]

Great video

[@mikearmstrong8483]

The radio could unintentionally turn the turret, and turning on the heater could fire the gun? This reminds me of an old used car I had, in which pushing in the clutch would sometimes start the windshield wipers.

[@badas45]

Very informative

[@willlasdf123]

Man this is some MajorSam level HD vintage training footage!

[@akaufmann]

watching this in my bunk bed on Waffenplatz Thin about 100m away from the Panzermuseum 😅

[@dondouglass6415]

Another good video... huzzah!!

[@jamesocker5235]

Looks like suspension has very short grow vs torsion bar or coil springs. Spring stack belville washers are used today in high pressure popoff

[@freebeerfordworkers]

9.50 the radio could turn the turret on its own and an electrical problem that could accidentally fire the main gun. That is worrying but reminds me a story I heard of the early radar controlled Bofors 40mm AA gun in British service. This would have been about 1960 and I was told that before they switched on the power connecting the gun to the radar unit one gunner had to sit on the seat. They then switched on the power and it went crazy rotating and elevating completely without control until the electronics settled down and the rest of the crew took position. Please it's only hearsay I never actually witnessed it

[@LORENSSIOK]

I'm not an expert, but I think the problem with the belleville washers suspension may be the wear on the cylinder interior walls from the springs. Just my take.

[@SNKBossSyndrom]

Turning on the heater sometimes fires the gun 😂

[@torbjrnsteinsland8985]

I have a question. Was there a panzer 53?

[@fabonzanaon8177]

Could have been the designation for the centurions.

[@CommunistPartyOfArstotzka]

Turning the heater on causing the main gun to fire is something I could only imagine from a French tank

[@SwebHat]

Could you make a video on the Swedish wedge tanks

[@ejt3708]

My guess on the Belleville Washers is: Yes, they would work, for a time. Assuming they were high-carbon steel (like a spring), rust would begin to degrade their effectiveness until they started to flatten or break. If one broke, the alignment of the rest of the washers would be altered, compromising effect. The walls of the tube housing the washers would also likely wear, and unevenly wear. If the units could be kept oiled, and dry, and replaced every few years, it seems like a great solution.

[@uberlol2228]

could you someday touch on the char futur project? cant find anything on it on youtube save for world of tanks videos

[@coraldestroyer4202]

you got it right for the most part but the KW 30/57 was just a wooden mockup and also there was a Panzer 68 version with ERA. also the was a panzer 68 version with a 140mm gun fitted

[@lorderer2827]

I think you got something confused, as far as i know the last two are both upgrades made to the Panzer 87 (Leopard 2) and not to the Panzer 68. The 140mm was only developed later and sandly never left the prototype phase, but at least its on display in a museum.

[@coraldestroyer4202]

@@lorderer2827 yeah i know it’s at a museum. and the ERA one i have photos of it, it’s a 68. No Information but most likely made during the process of development for the 68ET

[@unsuisseegare1291]

the 140mm gun fitted panzer 68 was only a test vehicle, it was literally just a gun mounted on a tank chassis, it didn't even had a turret, also a panzer 68 with ERA never existed

[@capdetigla]

You should make a video about the TR romanian mbt series of tanks next

[@EnemyAtom65]

That Bellville system seems like a weird compromise between torsion bar, christie, and HVSS for some reason

[@julianmuller6541]

at 07:44 u can see the tanks in thun infront of a building called "halle K" it is to this day in use to park the tanks and have some training in it... i had my leopard traning in there

[@TurbotheFurbo]

Hydropneumatic and electromagnetic suspensions are very interesting to me

[@hubnz]

Another thought on the Belleville system - there is always relative motion between the washers (and between washers and bore) leading to friction corrosion, micropitting and ultimately fatigue fractures of the washers. It may work for a couple of thousand cylces, but not for the millions of compression cycles experienced in a suspension system.

[@AKUJIVALDO]

Somehow it worked on these tanks for 30 years...

[@Kasian02]

​@@AKUJIVALDOmaybe they were replaced regularly.

[@AKUJIVALDO]

@@Kasian02 and other suspension systems aren't?

[@Kasian02]

@@AKUJIVALDO maybe significantly more often?

[@AgentK-im8ke]

in modern days MBT's are so expensive to develop that only a few nations are still capable to do it compared to the 50's when every countries seems to want to develop their own tank

[@mimodesu7689]

Can you make a Video about the Indian Panzer ?

[@alvaropulido5245]

Two fistfuls of a grip with the head sticking out…. Asleep

[@Joshua_N-A]

Would the Mitsubishi Type 10 be adequate for Swiss terrain?

[@noah-sf8gq]

I mean swiss and japanese military doctrin certainly intertwine for vehicules fit for mountainous terrain. I guess its also more about the logistics and necessity side of things. Rheinmetall is well established in Switzerland, we have bought many of their products and there a bit closer than Japan. There would also be some resistance from the people if we would have to again dish out millions for new weapons. It was already a struggle to buy new fighter jets. In my opinion, with the road network and high elevation, the type 16 would be more fitting.

[@Joshua_N-A]

@@noah-sf8gq the Type 16 should be right in MOWAG's alley. They can put almost anything on a Piranha.

[@jager898]

Kinda wanna see this in War Thunder lol

[@chost-059]

Never see this being talked about

[@arnijulian6241]

''Belleville washers'' in a tube for suspension have the advantage of being 1 cheap & 2 very simple to construct at a massive compromise. Real advantage: washers & tube as in parts can be manufactured or purchased near most anywhere. Minor advantage: Dumb proof once basics are explained to put assemble so skilled labour is not required. -(semi-modular) Major cons: -(wear out/short life) -(Non-self seal) meaning if the seal at the rod end fails mud gunk & everything clogs in meaning no suspension. -(static suspension) as in no dynamic give/module-traverse so all the stress is on those washers are liken to failure when most needed & will fail with a dangerous sudden ping if they get out. Minor con -Such stationary enclosed suspension systems time consuming to (strip & reassemble). Beeville washers for cheap truck et cetera is fine but a tank you are asking a lot of sprung cut out spring steel or elastomer. There are ways to eliminate these highly mitigate these cons though not completely eliminate but I am not employed by them as the English Engineer I am so it is not my business till someone pays me! I hope this answers is satisfactory Red Wrench Films without me going into the geometry & mechanical principals at play. All boring mathematics that would go over most peoples heads not out of the usual difficulty but shear simple 'boredom'!

[@arnijulian6241]

A note: Ow yes by default (Belleville washers suspension units) have a shorter/narrower vertical bottom to top wheel travel. Basically Belleville can carry a heavier load well above Torsions 30Tons roughly but does in on a shorter travel of the spring meaning a lot of load is on those washers.

[@user-op8fg3ny3j]

2:35 where's this footage from?

[@RedWrenchFilms]

If you look up “Vigilant 1964” it’s this weird documentary film thing about the National Redoubt, but filmed in such high quality. A lot of footage taken from it!

[@user-op8fg3ny3j]

@@RedWrenchFilms thanks! 👍

[@slavepusher]

​@@user-op8fg3ny3j The movie was nominated for the 1966 Oscars as "best short film". Other swiss military film productions: - kzbin.info/www/bejne/p57Mk5l4i7J9eJo - kzbin.info/www/bejne/mp2tdIFsbZKhh8U

[@Vigilante-3-1]

The movie is called Wehrhafte Schweiz or La Suisse vigilante.

[@climberly]

turning on the heater can fire the gun.... Yep I can see how that could pose a problem.

[@StefanHoffmann84]

1:35 Dark Helmet cosplay while riding a Hetzer :D

[@coraldestroyer4202]

The KW 30/52 is just a wooden prototype

[@jakezywek6852]

It featured Toblerone Composite Armour.

[@hanssparrow9180]

cool

[@Khobotov]

In the Panzer museum Thun is another a very strange swiss tank, the "Nahkampfkanone 2".

[@RedWrenchFilms]

As well as the Nahkampfkanone 1!

[@Khobotov]

That one really embraced the way of "no armor is best armor".

[@simosmaximos3642]

From 1952-2011 is a long time of beeing in service for a hull design

[@ohcrap3263]

Wait! Turn on the heater and the gun may fire?

[@noxyu2806]

This looks like a mini king tiger

[@noxyu2806]

Ok just the turret from the side

[@AwesomeNinja1027]

He forgot about the famous Swiss knife.

[@harry12dm]

Pov your the radio guy and the gunner dies just use the radios

[@markgarin6355]

Don't know if I want to fire the gun...or get warm.....

[@mnk9073]

Those the ones where the turret started turning on it's own as soon as you ran the heater and using the radio with the heater on also triggered the main gun? The Swiss suck at implementing tech, best example is FIS Heer, which was supposed to be a high tech command & control system showing all fiendlies in real time on a map as they moved as well as any identified enemies. Problem was they managed to make it not only massively overpriced but also stationary, meaning everytime you wanted to report your vehicles location you had to stop for 30 minutes, set up an antenna, upload your data, pack up and move on, your commander had to either do the same to receive or just simply stay stationary with this big ass antenna out in the open. Utterly defeating the purpose on every front.

[@lucariolps277]

The gun firing never actually happend. A lot of people don't understand the report. Basically, the heater and fire control were on the same pcb. At least in the Prototypes. Which could theoretically mean that in certain circumstances the gun could maybe go off if you turn on the heater. But it never happend.

[@phly1016]

time to go with this video to warthunder and just keep asking for these tanks.

[@mikebertolini120]

These would be great and unique vehicles to be added to warthunder

[@herosstratos]

2:40 Thun ist eine Reise Wert.

[@williamromine5715]

When the gunner fired the main gun, did the heater come on? I hope the heater/main gun fiasco only happened once. If more than once, there is something seriously wrong with Switzerland's military.

[@lucariolps277]

From what I found it never happend. It was blown out of Proportion by the Media. The heater and fire control were on the same pcb. That was about it.

[@THB1945]

Aha! Here it comes!!!

[@BloodyCrow__]

You would think they would make something more armored

[@kashawashatvop203]

Damm I wish one day my country build its own tanks by now we are stock with the m41

[@crash6674]

"turning on the heater can fire the main gun" 🤣🤣🤣

[@qwertyuuytrewq825]

hahaha ) radio that moves tower heater that may fire main gun

[@danielaguirre2516]

We need all these tanks in Wa Thunda

[@user-kt8yp5ho2y]

Wait, I thought it was Panzer 68?!?!

[@razor1uk610]

..putting on the heater could accidentally cause enough of a power surge to fire the gun... ouch, not a good thing in mountainous winter combat/training.....

[@lucariolps277]

Never happend. The heater and fire control were on the same pcb. That's it

[@zzzyxwv]

Wait for the next scandal: Switzerland is a real democracy with power to the people 😂. We( I’m Swiss ) voted against buying the Swedish gripen fighter some years ago because not needed and too much money. Now the government has decided to buy US F-35😮😅 not asking the population for their opinion😂

[@playoffmodesp2536]

Mir sie halt d'Marionette vo dr Amis gworde...

[@lucariolps277]

Die Abstimmung war nur über den gripen.. Das war keine generelle Abstimmung ob Flugzeuge gekauft werden sollen oder nicht.. Was gegen volkswille gewesen wäre, wäre wenn wir dennoch den gripen gekauft hätten. Das wäre gegen volkswille. Aber ein anderer Flieger kaufen.. Über das ging es in der Abstimmung überhaupt nicht. Du hast ein sehr komisches Verständnis von Demokratie und Abstimmungen. Zudem, Armee Material Beschaffung fällt nicht unter obligatorische Abstimmungen. Der Bund muss gar nicht fragen. Wenn man was dagegen hat muss man Initiative ergreifen. Hat beim f35 aber keiner. Oder dann ist sie nicht erfolgreich zu standen gekommen. Ich seh hier kein Problem.

[@playoffmodesp2536]

@@lucariolps277 stimmt wieder mal nicht ganz. Wir haben in 2020 wieder mal bestimmen müssen ob man neue Kampfjets kaufen würden, dann gab es 4 oder 5 verschiedene optionen. Die Bevölkerung hatte denn sich mit 50.1% für einen Ja entschieden. Est ist ein minimen Ja, aber halt trotzdem ein Ja. Anderthalb Jahr später wurde verkündigt das der F-35 gekauft sein würde. Das wussten wir bei der ehemaligen Abstimmung nicht. Dementrsprechend gab es eine Initiative, die Effektiv mit 102 000 Unterschriften vor das Parlament gesetzt wurde, und das Parlament has alles mögliche gemacht für das den Vertrag so schnell wie möglich unterschreibt wird, so dass bei der nächste Abstimmung (diese jetzt) den Vertrag schon gemacht ist und das die Initiative nicht mehr durchgehen kann. Darum wurde die Initiative zurück gezogen: und darum steht auch mein Punkt immer, unsere semi-direkte Demokratie wird von den Ami-Marionetten benutzt um diese zu befriedigen.

[@lucariolps277]

@@playoffmodesp2536 @Playoffmode SP erstens, du stellst es so dar als ob der f35 nicht im Auswahl Rennen war in der 2020 Abstimmung. Das stimmt nicht. Er war einer der 4 die zur Auswahl standen. Also sagen "das wusste man bei der Abstimmung nicht" ist etwas unehrlich. Man wusste zum Zeitpunkt der Abstimmung das es der f 35 sein könnte. War natürlich noch nicht festgelegt.. Aber es war eine recht grosse Chance das er es sein könnte. Zudem spielt das keine Rolle. Die 2020 Abstimmung war eine Grundsatzfrage. Nicht eine Frage des Typs. Zweitens, das Parlament hatte seine guten Gründe den Vertrag durch zu drücken. Der Vertrag hatte eine Deadline. Wäre die Initiative durchgegangen wäre das praktisch ein nein gewesen für den f35. Wir hätten den Vertrag und Produktionsslot verloren. Spielt keine Rolle was die Bevölkerung gewollt hätte dort. Dazu kommt noch eine nun andere Sicherheitslage. Reklamieren das das böse Parlament den Vertrag durch drückt und das das doch so unfair ist gegenüber der Bevölkerung ist etwas scheinheilig. Das warten und durchgehen lassen der Initiative wäre genauso unfair gewesen da es mehr oder weniger einem f35 nein gleichkommt, egal was man abstimmt. Drittens. Wie schon in meinem ersten Kommentar gesagt.. Rüstungsmaterial beschaffen benötigt keine obligatorische Abstimmung. Das Parlament und der Bund haben in der Form gegen nichts verstossen. Es ist nicht so, als ob es eine Verfassungsänderung war und der Bund da was duechgedrückt hat ohne Abstimmung. Viertens. Ami marrionetten. Warum Ami marrionetten? Der f35 war von Anfang an in der Auswahl dabei. Es ist nicht so als ob er plötzlich einfach aus dem nichts gekommen ist und plötzlich auf unerklärliche weisse gewählt wurde. Den Vertrag unterschreiben bevor die Initiative zu stande gekommen wäre ist auch eher ein schwaches argument für Ami marrionetten, wenn man die plötzlich verschlechterte Sicherheitslage betrachtet. Also was genau deutet hier darauf hin das der f35 irgendwie mit Druck von den Amis oder von irgendwelchen insider marrionetten gewählt wurde? Mein fazit: ich hab nicht dir geantwortet eigentlich. Ich hab eigentlich dem original Kommentar geantwortet. Aber egal. Ich sehe weiterhin nichts falsch Anbetracht der Situation. Der Bund hat basierend auf einer gewonnen Initiative Kampfjets evaluiert und gekauft. Anbetracht der schlechten Sicherheitslage finde ich das durch Drücken durchaus verständlich. Dazu kommt noch, das wenn die Initiative zugelassen worden wäre, wäre das gegen den Willen der ursprünglichen intitiave gegangen. Entweder wäre es essentiell ein f35 nein gewesen weil der Vertrag abgelaufen wäre, oder wir hätten sie zu anderen Preisen und Konditionen kaufen müssen welche wahrscheinlich gegen die 2020 Abstimmungen verstossen hätten. So oder so. Volkswille wäre so oder so irgendwie nicht ganz eingehalten worden. Zudem.. Wenn die Gegner etwas schlauer gewesen wären, hätten sie die initave auch schon vorher starten können. Man wusste in der 2020 Abstimmung, das der f35 im Rennen ist. Wenn der Typ das Problem ist.. Hätte man schon vor Ankündigung des Beschlusses eine Initiative machen können, die sagt das man den f35 nicht kauft. So wären sie dem Militär sogar zuvor gekommen.

[@unsuisseegare1291]

we voted for the purchase of a new fighter plane, even if I think that the F-35 was not a good choice compared to the rafale or super hornet the fact is that the people voted for the purchase of a new plane, so saying that the opinion of the people wasen't considered is flse, because it's the people who voted for this purchase

[@themadmoderator8465]

halo were neutral but we all must do millirty service and we can buy our rifles to keep afterwards. plus we have road signs warning about tanks

[@nmspy]

The only reason I know this exists is WoT blitz, as ashamed as I am at least it proved itself slightly useful

[@Pr.Wyvern]

Me too, what can I say? 😆 In another thing. It would be nice if WG added the Panzer 61 and 68 as both tier 9 and 10 respectively, so the Panzer 58 would not be the only Swiss tank there.

[@c.n.i7105]

Why would you need a tank when you have naval-caliber guns inside the barns?

[@samuelmendoza9356]

They are stationary. And like all other fortress, any invader would just keep the fortress and its defenders surrounded and isolated. While the rest of invading forces moves on and do the same on other fotress. AFAIK, fortress nowadays, while very handy to survive a determined assault, they are more handy as staging area. And oh, logistics hubs if there are spaces there,

[@c.n.i7105]

@@samuelmendoza9356 It was a joke, but thanks for the analysis anyways. Switzerland has cannons hidden pretty much anywhere, be it mountais, hills, farms... and oh yeah, they can (and will if the ocassion arrives) blow up huge porions of mounains just to block roads.

[@totensiebush]

I would argue that the Swiss were 100% involved in an armed conflict in WWII: they shot down numerous warplanes from both sides.

[@Khobotov]

Keeping an armed neutrality means denying everyone to pass trough your airspace or land.

[@gamergaming1955]

Why aint ur name blue wrench films eh?

[@RedWrenchFilms]

(I’m not sure I understand)

[@cjclark1208]

@@RedWrenchFilms red = communists, probably to OP. (My guess)

[@NapoleanBlown-aparte]

​@@RedWrenchFilms(then understand)

[@maxonym_]

Wow I'm early

[@mrllamaton1873]

Wait for it, KNIFE

[@joni-1112]

War Thunder is going to have a field day with this😂

[@morrisonparker3229]

If Swiss can make such Army equipment like this even as narrator says lack of experience, in peace. Imagine what they can do if they threatened. They may be even scarier and almost engineering marvel than their German speaking cousins😅

[@trygveblacktiger597]

Swiss was nuteral yes but it was a very armed nutrality with them often attacking allied and axis planes in their air space during ww2.

[@kalsder]

When they shot down some allied aircraft the allies „accidentally“ bombed a few swiss cities, apparently mistaking them for german cities.

[@Ukraineaissance2014]

Interestingly although the nazis never invaded Switzerland, hitler initially wanted to invade it before all other countries and there was extensive plans made about how to do so.

[@andraslibal]

It would surprise you then ... Not at all. Swiss neutrality can only happen because of Swiss military strength.

[@shwarz442]

Beh! Gli svizzeri sono bravi a fare buchi, tanto che bucano tutte le montagne che capitano a tiro e per tenersi in allenamento fanno il formaggio con i buchi; sono capaci a fare gli orologi tanto bravi a fare girare le cose che fanno girare molto bene i soldi di qualunque provenienza, ma riuscire a sviluppare e costruire un carro armato è un'altro pianeta. Un'esempio è l'ariete italiano che, nonostante tutto, è più simile a un gigantesco fermacarte che a un veicolo da combattimento corazzato. Impegnarsi in tale percorso, senza risorse adeguate, porta ad un sicuro fallimento o comunque ad un risultato mediocre.

[@osmacar5331]

you can remain neutral and defend yourself.

[@jehoiakimelidoronila5450]

Is it just me, or the panzer 58 looked like a flattened Sherman?... Especially the image @ 5:04 timestamp

[@filip038]

A lot of countries wanted to be neutral also but only Switzerland has been granted with that wish, think about that....

[@lucariolps277]

Well.. There's more to it than that. Switzerland dosent have any natural Ressources.. The Terrain is very easily defendable.. Switzerland has active foreign relations and a active military.. Its not like we were just.. Granted neutrality.. There's more to it