Paper Chase vs Law Professor

[@Learnlawbetter]

What surprised you about law school after watching this video or Paper Chase?

[@sordidC]

That my likely adult adhd is as much a personality problem I have to constantly work at. I struggle with anxiety learning things slow. But when I do I can answer any question. Never enough time in the day. The movie is somewhat very accurate.

[@БорисТыНеПрав-г9я]

Dear Professor Beau Baes, I am from Russia. I applied 5 times to the Supreme Court about the illegality of 3 and 4 terms of Putin’s office. The Supreme Court did not accept my statements. I sent complaints to the European Court of Human Rights. He also did not accept my statements. How do you think, where can I still send my statements that Putin’s 3 and 4 terms are unconstitutional, as they contradict Article 81 Part 3 of the Constitution of the Russian Federation?

[@Learnlawbetter]

What you are describing is a political issue and not a legal issue. Courts do not address political issues. I understand what you are saying, but think of it from the court’s perspective: this is a battle they can’t win.

[@БорисТыНеПрав-г9я]

@@Learnlawbetter The constitution is a basic law. This is the highest legal document. Judges are required to comply with the Constitution (in accordance with Article 120 of the Constitution of the Russian Federation). The President is obliged to comply with the Constitution (according to Article 15 of the Constitution of the Russian Federation and according to his oath upon assuming office, Article 82 part 1). Reference to the Constitution of the Russian Federation . www.constitution.ru/en/10003000-01.htm

[@Learnlawbetter]

Of course. But judges are also pragmatic. Even in the United States, judges do not interfere with political matters. In other words, don’t expect the judges to issue a ruling and have it ignored. That only hurts the judges and will not resolve the problem.

[@ioakimmakis9288]

"Paper Chase" the TV series was one of the reasons that made me decide to study in the U.S.A. I used to watch it on a Greece's tv channel in the early 1980s. My family was not a rich one, but this series made me realize that attending a college in U.S.A. while working at the same time can be done. Well, I really managed to do it from 1987 until my graduation in 1991 from Kansas State University. As a foreigner I could not work off campus, but there were so many on-campus jobs - waiter at University's Union, working in a dining hall, working for K-State Collegian as a staff reporter, front desk receptionist...some semesters used to have two jobs in order to save more money. By working hard and studying even harder at the same time my reward came-the best on-campus job a student can get, Resident Assistant. My law classes were very interesting (my double major was in JMC/Political Science), especially the Constitutional Law class. I was in a study group of five students just for this class and it helped us a lot. Other students found out about our study group and wanted to join it, but we had a rule, only four students and one g.... foreigner (hahaha that was our joke in the group). If it was not this tv series, I would never decide to go to a U.S. college. Thank you for the video. Greetings from northern Greece-Pella, the heartland of Makedonia.

[@Learnlawbetter]

The TV series is interesting. Thanks for watching the video.

[@JohnVKaravitis]

No one gives a shit.

[@ninthusiva7546]

@@JohnVKaravitis aww.. are you jealous as you didn't get to go to USA to study?

[@Ardsgaine]

@@Learnlawbetter I saw the series well before I ever watched the movie. I remember the "winding sheet" scene, and how Kingsfield was going to ostracize him, ruining his chances of passing. Is that a thing that happens? Professors giving up on a student, and never calling on them again?

[@Learnlawbetter]

It’s up to each professor who they call on. I use a sheet to monitor who I’ve called in-everyone gets called the same number of times during the semester.

[@jhogan1960]

I was in college in the late 70's and loved this movie. My major was Biology, and I had a 1 st year professor who was just like John Houseman's character. She knew your name, she used the socratic dialog method of engaging the students, and she compelled you to be prepared or embarrassed. Great video.

[@Learnlawbetter]

Each year I get a bit more pushback from students. I’m never mean, but some students don’t want to be called on publicly.

[@larrylevy3962]

@@Learnlawbetter Is it really necessary to embarrass students, to denigrate them? Is it possible to get not just one oral response but 100% of the class to respond, regardless of its size, by asking all to take out a sheet of paper and jot responses to questions? Yes, it is possible, and it works. Not that calling on one person should never happen, but when it does--when one oral response happens--ever one else becomes a spectator only. For me, as a teacher, that is not good enough.

[@Learnlawbetter]

It comes down to time. Part of the rationale for the Socratic method is to demonstrate critical thinking skills. Then there is the aspect of training future lawyers to think on their feet-a skill they will use in court. So it’s not really about the content, but the process. But I agree that embarrassment should never be a goal.

[@danielgregg2530]

@@Learnlawbetter As Houseman says, "you teach YOURSELVES the law . . . "

[@danielgregg2530]

@@larrylevy3962 As Houseman says, "you teach YOURSELVES the law . . . "

[@dhlong1697]

Seem to remember this as a television series.

[@Learnlawbetter]

Yes, they had a few seasons after the movie.

[@frankberry6220]

Dear Prof Baez, To make any film that was not only entertaining but also so accurate in its portrayal of its subject was quite an achievement. Frank.

[@fabiengerard8142]

A never forgotten movie! Perfect John Houseman… And what a wonderful actor Timothy Bottoms was as well. (Such a moving surprise to see him back some thirty years later in Gus Van Sant’s ‘Elephant’).

[@mentalistsa]

I only have a Masters but can appreciate anyone studying 60 hours a week or more to get through law school. Great movie and TV series. I watched it regularly.

[@izacnewton5761]

Prof BB great video thank you , cheers merry xmas

[@steveoh9285]

Outstanding discussion related to a great movie, A.

[@BravesFan30281]

I was a business major in undergrad, and all business students had to take a class called Principles of Business Law (taught by one of the law school faculty). This was probably the most difficult class I had. The professor was a former magistrate judge, and he absolutely used the socratic method in this class. The nightly assignments included reading the chapter and then working the case problems at the end of the chapter using the IRAC method (issue, rule, application, conclusion). The next day we discussed the cases in class. The class was relatively small (25-30 students), so each student was called upon multiple times each class session. I'm sure we were just scratching the surface with this business law class. And law school students would probably snicker at the sight of undergrad business students attempting to understand the law. But the entire class was a very unique experience for those of us who were only familiar with the standard college lecture format.

[@Mkaela90]

I had the same . But I loved it and true it was the one of the few I had to prepare the most and spend more time.

[@ms.annthrope415]

And you learned that analyzing the issues is the goal, not just the answer. Students who fail are the ones who jump right into the answer. In the bar exam the hypo question woukd contain a vague issue. Not enough to really elicit a full discussion, but if you ignore it, you lost points. You get the points by writing that this presents an inxonppwtely issue. If the fact develope to show.....then the issue woukd be......if thr facts develope to ghe contrary to show......then the arguments woukd be.......that shows you didn't miss anything. The trick is issue spotting. As a former army man, it's like clearing a mine field. Find the mines, flag it. Move on. Find the next mine, flag it. At least if you flag it, you wont step on it. If you miss the issue, then you would step on it and get blown up.

[@amesbancal]

Thanks for that video. I graduated in 1972 at HLS but the post graduate course (LL.M) that i followed was much different than the JD. For me was a great time. Your explanations are very clear and it is normal, this is your profession...

[@underated17]

I love John Houseman too! He is absolutely fantastic in this movie! One of the best actors and roles ever. He is beyond believable!

[@Sylonth]

I was in pharmacy school. I studied 80 hours a week during my last year which was my "easy year". My roommate in law school used to study far less and probably less than 60 hours per week. I still remember and can quote those things that I remember fromthose days 43days later.

[@pianoman551000]

I really enjoyed the video!! You covered the most relevant points of the movie with clear, concise rhetoric. Very well done!

[@judyfowler2023]

This movie really impressed me back then. It was so well acted and I love the story

[@Learnlawbetter]

I’m glad I didn’t see it before law school-would have made me apprehensive.

[@ralphangioli4852]

Kingsfield would probably object to stress counselors being available to law students today. His attitude was if you can't handle the stress of law school you can't handle stress of actually being an attorney, end of story.

[@Learnlawbetter]

Good point. Though my views on this have changed over the years. I realize that people have choices in their professional path. For example, a solo practitioner can work fewer hours to help reduce the stress. Or someone could get a job at a law library, or low stress government agency. Options today that were rare 50 years ago.

[@isabelamacavei1333]

@@Learnlawbetter If you're a competitor, you would want the stress. But not everyone is made for trial attorneys.

[@brianjoslyn7538]

Stress counselors?!? Asked he of UF Law with Honors 1981.

[@deanimperial7264]

THOROUGHLY enjoyed this! Thank you!

[@seamusandpat]

John Houseman, a wonderful actor and a wonderful human being.

[@evantorch6122]

Not to Orson Welles, who said that “with friends like John Houseman, who needs enemies”!

[@courtcat339]

Professor Beau Baez, I am attending law school next semester and I really appreciate how much your videos clarify about the reality of studying law. Thank you for doing this! Can I ask, what is the writing load like in the first year? It is my understanding that you are required to take a legal writing course. But as far as the other courses go, are there a lot of papers? Or only the final exam? Or does it vary from professor to professor? I would love if you did a video on legal writing/writing strategies in law school. I'm not sure if you already have such a video. If so, let me know! Thanks.

[@Learnlawbetter]

Depending on the law school, you’ll have several papers in your legal writing. During the semester you need to prepare outlines and do practice essays. The more you practice the better you’ll do on the final.

[@zlatanp479]

Great film, I saw it at least four times.

[@don2458]

Truly great summary. I have seen the movie literally about 30x.

[@jackiepyzocha7380]

What about One L book by Turow? His tips helped, too!

[@jackiepyzocha7380]

Maybe if he didn't insult her, she wouldn't leave him.

[@carloscasalasviera9741]

Vista tantos años después se acrecienta su significación. Excelente análisis de la perspectiva de un docente de derecho. Saludo

[@hyojinlee]

I watched this movie a few nights ago. Thank you so much for this video :)

[@Learnlawbetter]

Did you enjoy the movie or is it too dated?

[@hyojinlee]

@@Learnlawbetter I’m 37 so I didn’t find it to be too outdated :) In so many ways, especially in terms of class room setting, I feel closer to 1970s than to 2020!

[@hyojinlee]

@@Learnlawbetter As a non-traditional student, I thoroughly appreciate all your uploads on youtube. Thank you so much, professor!

[@dori10]

Beside the movie, there's also a serial.

[@milwaukeemotor5995]

a burned and hairy hand? the best scene ever

[@luismanueldelvallemarcanos1110]

Professor. Your videos are fabulous, they are a magnificent contribution to this new generation of young students in the study of Law. Although the legal systems are different, the significant essence of justice generates a common bond. My name is Luis Manuel Marcano Salazar, I am a judge of the Supreme Court of Venezuela in exile in Chile, where I also teach Law until I can return home. Congratulations on your videos. Sorry for my english or spelling.¡¡

[@Learnlawbetter]

Well thank you for the kind words. My grandfather was a judge until he was fired by Fidel Castro. I hope you get your country back soon.

[@luismanueldelvallemarcanos1110]

@@Learnlawbetter I hope we learn from history dear professor. We shall return!!!

[@HenryEllisonHoweyJr]

ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL MOVIES ABOUT THE LAW!!! Thank you, Professor Kingsfield!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@wrlord]

My law school experience was very different. Students would pass all the time, and while a professor might raise an eyebrow, there were no repercussions. Grades were based exclusively on exams. It was unlikely a professor would even recognize one of his students on the street.

[@bewareofzealots]

This is a great analysis of one of my favorite films. And ... the movie's theme was written by the great John Williams.

[@starbury64]

An excellent synopsis of an iconic film. Can you do more of these with other legal films? I can give you a list.

[@Learnlawbetter]

I’m working on Legally Blonde. Other suggestions?

[@starbury64]

@@Learnlawbetter Absolutely. Movies such as The Lincoln Lawyer, Denial, Dark Waters, The Rainmaker, The Firm, The Verdict, and Guilty as Sin. TV shows such as Law and Order, Silk, (British TV) Proven Innocent, For the People, Shark, The Practice and Boston Legal.

[@vcv6560]

I loved this program, from its first run on CBS in 1979 and follow-up later on Showtime 82-84. Only later did I see the original movie. At the time I was just entering college for engineering. That was challenge enough, and yet....40 years in my career I still wonder what going to law school would have been; would it have changed my career focus.

[@tinkertime577]

You all can do this! Good luck, stay focused and you'll do fine. I looked everywhere other than my syllabus for reading assignments. Good thing I did. In my Contract law class, my professor said something off topic that ended up on a test, I recorded it, transcribed it onto my notes, and nailed an A+ (100%) for the semester. Record everything, including all chalkboard notes. Good luck everyone! You can do it! Record EVERYTHING !!!

[@gmmay70]

The "questioning" described here is merely questioning. Asking repeated questions on the same subject doesn't make it "Socratic". "Socratic questioning" is a very specific style of questioning where the teacher not only assumes a position of ignorance, but the question is phrased such that the student must take a firm position. If the student lacks the knowledge or background on a particular subject, then effective Socratic method will reveal that at a rate proportional to the amount of knowledge the student possesses. While it's true that some practitioners used break down students this way, an effective practitioner can get students to think in ways that they never have before - the whole purpose of the method.

[@Learnlawbetter]

Yes, this isn’t the same method as used in the Socratic dialogues. A better name might be the case method. But it has been called the Socratic method for over a hundred years.

[@gmmay70]

Yes, it's true that the name has been misapplied for so long; but it still grates on me a little. I agree about "case method". Socratic questioning seems so simple when you hear someone who's good at it, but it's actually difficult technique to get right. I've only seen a handful of professors do it well. Thanks for the response.

[@jackiepyzocha7380]

To relate to acting "the Method" , Brando, the Socratic Method is the way the questions are asked, "precise analysis" (paraphrased from One L by Turow).

[@Ardsgaine]

I noticed the classroom in the exam looked a lot emptier. Do they break the class up into different rooms to put more distance between them for the exam, or did the empty chairs reflect the dropout rate for a first year contracts class? What is the dropout rate for that class?

[@Learnlawbetter]

It depends on the school. Generally you want to have space between students, so that may mean using multiple classrooms for an exam. As the the dropout rate, it’s pretty rare in US law schools for people to drop out before the final exam.

[@6B8RX]

@@Learnlawbetter -- But it does happen. When I was in law school (not at Harvard or anywhere close) one student got up about 45 minutes into the first exam, handed in her paper, and went to withdraw from the school. Several others withdrew before finishing first semester exams or chose not to return after the Christmas break.

[@doctormanhattan5663]

I am a student aspiring to become a criminal lawyer and I love your videos. The only problem is that since I prosecute sociopaths, would they take revenge on me afterwards. I am scared plz answer

[@Learnlawbetter]

This is a valid concern, though still rare in the legal profession. Lawyers who deal with criminal and also those who do divorce law have a higher chance of being injured by someone. But again, still unlikely.

[@Aarzu]

I didn't go to law school, but my college history professor (Early and Late American history, two separate classes, same professor) used the Socratic method, though a lighter version. He didn't follow up with a question until your brain broke, partly because history is a collection of known facts already, but it was his opinion that method helps people to learn and develop critical thinking skills. Personally? I did find that method to be much more mentally engaging. I have a lot of trouble with classes where someone stands at the front and just lectures and talks at you. What I also like about the Socratic method is that, as a tool, it also allows the student to ask questions. The history class I took was, many times, an exchange of questions and answers between the students and the professor. He didn't give us the answers all the time, but rather he tried to get us to speculate on historical events and find our own answers.

[@Learnlawbetter]

I’m curious, did your classmates appreciate the class? I’ve heard some students complain that they want to know what’s on the exam, which a lecture accomplishes. So they complain when different teaching methods are used.

[@Aarzu]

@@Learnlawbetter That particular professor would let the class know, at least roughly, what sort of questions would be on the exam. I also just remembered, funny enough, a Western Philosophy class I took where the professor of that also used the Socratic Method which seems...appropriate. Now THAT class got exhausting! It was one of the classes I had the most fun in though. That professor knew how to really work your brain and make you think. Students got frustrated with him though, not so much because the exams were difficult, but because no subject was safe from scrutiny, including ethics and religion and...well we're talking about Texas, so religion's kind of a thing here.

[@Canadiana71]

So what was the answer to the question at 13:02? :-)

[@Learnlawbetter]

The second contract requires that the $100 be paid first. Without payment, there is no obligation to paint. The first contract does not require payment of $100 before the painting occurs.

[@Canadiana71]

@@Learnlawbetter You're smart. I'm dumb.

[@Learnlawbetter]

@@Canadiana71 No, you are not dumb. It was a difficult question, which is why the professor asked it. Did you notice that the student he called on could not answer it? That happens all the time in law school, leading some students to get embarrassed.

[@Canadiana71]

@@Learnlawbetter Well thanks anyway. :-)

[@don2458]

Answer: one is a bilateral contract vs. the other being a unilateral contract. Listen to the exact working of the question. This is where law students get into trouble. For example. in criminal law, "A burgler breaks into a house a 2:00 AM while at another house down the street another burgler had broken into another house only 2 blocks away at 3:00 PM. Notice one is "A.M." and the other is "P.M." What is the difference beside day and night? One can be a felony and other other a misdemeanor. Second, notice that I said it is 2 blocks away rather than across another county. Due to varying venues the law "may" be different due to the hours of the break-in. My poin in law school they'll play with you head. Seriously, KNOW the parts of speech. Yes, part of speech. What is a verb vs. adjective because they can and do give different meaning to the crime. I had great law professors. There are no more Professor Kingfield and it shows in the "education" of today's lie-wyers. They are unable to truly reason. Yes, they learn the law and maybe even learn to think like lie0-wyers but the problem is that they are not the high caliber of former attorneys. Notice the laws that are being passed as legislation. The apple does not fall far from the idiot tree. Best of luck!

[@SunTzuMaverick]

Good day Professor Beau Baez, I do enjoy your videos and your insights into the Law School experience. I am an older student finally interested in pursuing to become an attorney. My question is about the Socratic method that is brought up in law school, I've noticed very few teachers applying this method in both the community college and at university. When applied I learned much better and prepared more than the standard I talk you listen approach. Why do few school make the Socratic method the go-to approach to learning? And a student like myself interested in law school wouldn't be a better means to prepare for the riggers of law school? ... Thanks and keep 'em coming, Peter

[@Learnlawbetter]

I don’t know why it’s not used outside of law schools very often. Probably custom more than anything else.

[@JosephBrown-cw9ml]

Why isn’t this professor a Supreme Court Justice? By that, I mean the KZbin poster, not the Paper Chase. He would be a gift!

[@1rjbrjb]

There are 3 tenured Law Professors in the United States who are not DEI Communist satanists. One is, weirdly, at Harvard and he advocates a Papist dictatorship. This is a cruel joke by Harvard. Law Professors have been a mixed bag, trending negative,on the Supreme Court. Douglas was a Stalinist libertine - interesting combination. Frankfurter was a scheming socialist. Scalia was a towering genius. Principled Law Professors who care about the Constitution have been hunted to extinction after Dersh retired. Trust me, this fat man - and how fat and soft he is, like Nero in a 50s movie - is pure evil.

[@Minceir]

This is the one movie and tv series I mentioned to those who study or had studied law. This was John Houseman's first film role. And had the gravitas to pull off this role.

[@Learnlawbetter]

Really? I didn’t know it was his first movie role.

[@Minceir]

@@Learnlawbetter I've since learnt that he has been in the industry, since the thirties mainly behind the scenes. But the paper chase was his first major role. You can check-up on him in IMDb.

[@MrZola1234]

My contracts professor had the same sirley demeanor as professor Kingsfeild and only dropped the socratic method a couple of times all year. He began the 1st class very similar to the scene here. He recited a hypathetical fact patern based on his friend Harry Hand and... called on a student and asked if Harry had a contract. As Scott Turrow said in his book "L1," first year they try to scare you to death... he was right, but it was magical!

[@WelshRabbit]

At 2:30, while it may be uncommon today, at my law school, in four of my five first semester 1L courses in 1968, we were required to stand when addressing the prof. Speaking on one’s feet in such a large forum was a shock to many of us, including me, and because our casebooks and notes were just out of focus, it required responses from our heads, and not simply reading or paraphrasing our prepared notes or briefs.

[@d.m.8311]

Hello Professor, do you have any particular advice for high school students? I'm in currently in tenth grade, and I am very interested in law.

[@Learnlawbetter]

Work hard at getting good grades and developing strong study habits. That will help you get into a top college and then into a top law school. Don’t settle for mediocre grades.

[@davidcoates6201]

Yeah, we (section B) gave our criminal law professor a standing ovation when we finished his class. Someone up there really broke the mold after making Professor Cribari. There is no one on Earth remotely like him.

[@laminage]

Buying Outlines is the equivalent of "Cole's Notes" which is like the TV Guide of The Academic World where it gives you an idea but not the full information.

[@EnergeticWaves]

Greatest law movie since My Cousin Vinny.

[@jdmans]

Professor-I graduated from Whittier Law School. It closed unfortunately-first ABA school to close in 35 years. Not that I would be blamed for the closure(hypothetical of course)if you attended an ABA law school that closed, and had an interview-asked about it-would you emphasize the positive aspects of the school. I believe that would be the only reasonable answer.

[@Learnlawbetter]

You weren’t on the faculty or the administration, so hard for you to really know why it closed. I would say something like: I really don’t know more than what was reported in the press, which is that they.... A rude question for an interviewer to ask of a student.

[@jdmans]

@@Learnlawbetter the closure has been asked at 2 interviews so far...as well as stating (in California, where I don't interview anymore at firms) that it is rare that they interview Whittier grads. That really helped me to know. Anyway thank you for the input.

[@etchedinstone7562]

Law school for me was starkly different from Paper Chase, partly because students of my generation had pretty good intelligence on what professors to watch out for (i.e.- the harsh graders). There were one or two truly old school professors in their late 70s and older when I matriculated and I was advised by other students to avoid them if I didn't want to flunk out. In Paper Chase, you get no sense that any 1L's have that kind of heads up or choice in the matter.

[@Learnlawbetter]

Yes, the world has changed. I taught with an older colleague who told me that he was asked to change his grading because he was flunking out too many people.

[@MrLadi965]

Congrats Professor, you use a clear language and your thoughts are well organised. Overall your videos are very understandable and helpful especially for law students.

[@stinker43]

I had an interest in pre-law when I was an undergrad in the 70's. There was one class in Constitutional Law then that was taught in the socratic/law school method by a prof that did his pre-law class almost the same as he and Housman did the class in 3rd year law school in Paper Chase. I was one of the highest ranked students in pre-law, and the prof asked me to assist him in prepping for his Con Law course in law school just like Housman did. As it turned out, I majored in business and got married right after graduation. I would have liked to have gone to law school, but money didn't allow it. I'm now retired, age 71 and considering re-upping to law school, just for the knowledge. I will never practice again. In looking at the profs at the local law school, I see many folks that I knew who worked for IRS when I was practicing.

[@JohnSmith-qz6rd]

I'm taking a civil procedure 1 and 2 comprehensive final on this wednesday. We took the summer program of the law school and we did legal analysis, civ Pro 1 and 2 in like 6 weeks. The final is going to be insane

[@Learnlawbetter]

Hope it goes well.

[@JohnSmith-qz6rd]

Thank you! My professor has the grades back already and I got 7.5 points above the curve. I don't know if that's because I did well or because everyone else did poorly.... I left an aweful lot of points on the table. I got a 61% off the curve. Is that something to be proud of?

[@Learnlawbetter]

If you are above the curve (ie, above average), that’s great. Some faculty, me included, write exams were no one is expected to earn all possible points. In my class, the top grade usually earns about 80% of the possible points.

[@isabelamacavei1333]

Standing has a lot to do with projecting the voice louder but also with the old school of politeness towards the elders.

[@Learnlawbetter]

I’ve also see professors use this approach to keep students from looking at their notes-forces a deeper level of preparation.

[@isabelamacavei1333]

@@Learnlawbetter I was born in Europe where standing when speaking to a Professor - disregarding his age - is a sign of respect.

[@hungrybby6672]

As an aspiring lawyer, I really enjoy the law school aspect of this film, especially when they talk about specific cases. I also really enjoyed John Houseman's character. The character of Hart, however, I could barely stand. I find him so awful!

[@louisaparker]

What I learned from the movie - in the 1970s, getting laid was easier than passing a class. What weird times!

[@billmason2785]

Wasn't weird.... women weren't brainwashed by feminism...yet!....both sexes have equal drive...women realized a weapon

[@louisaparker]

@@billmason2785 Sure, it probably didn't seem weird to the men who were young in those times. But to the younger men of today, it seems like an alien planet.

[@hannotn]

I got a big hit of nostalgia at hearing what was obviously Carlill v Carbolic Smoke Ball Company. I suspect that that's a case that sticks in every law student's memory for life... the name, the facts, all quite evocative of a different time. Much of this video was a bit different from my experience, having gone to law school in Australia. We mainly just had straight lectures, with only one of my lecturers using the Socratic method, my Constitutional law professor, Leslie Zines. He was scary when he pinned you to the wall, but a lovely guy outside the classroom. Was sorry to hear of his death recently. I didn't go on to practice, despite getting through it all and having the ceremony of admission to the profession. Actually became a postman instead, which was much less stressful (and infinitely less lucrative) but kinda fun, but even thirty years later case names and statutes come to mind when I'm watching TV or hearing someone spouting off about legal matters of which they wouldn't have a clue.

[@Learnlawbetter]

Surprising how many law school graduates decide to go into other lines of work. When I was in law school we had a German bakery down the road. Found out that the head baker was a graduate of my law school.

[@Penguinracer]

In New Zealand in the late'80's to early '90's, my Law School also didn't use the socratic method, just straight lectures. There were a few tutorials in some core subjects but not many. The final 3-hour exam was invariably four questions setting out a fact situation and asking you to advise one of the parties. There were open-book exams for Land Law and Company Law but not anything else that I can recall. Probably our most admired Professor was one who made the complex seem very simple - he used plain language to explain the reasoning of key decisions & broke the ratio decidendi down into a proposition built-up from some key elements.

[@ctromanus]

the traditional method is absolutely used in great degree today in 1L. Surprised you didn't mention that the exam book had the student's name on it. I went to law school in the late 90's and grading was anonymous; student id numbers were used instead.

[@KTOWNK1D]

I used to be one of the "shot gun" students -- people who always volunteered when a question was asked and/or interjected to ask a question. I was never cold called unless it got to a point where no one had the right answers; it would be either me or 3 other students. We weren't trying to be know-it-alls but rather we wanted to game the system with an artificial sense of control. We honestly didn't even care if we were right, half of the time and our law professors actually appreciated it. You can probably guess what the 4 of us gunners had in common: we were all former trial paralegals with 6 years of experience before deciding to go to law school that had experience taking cases from conception to trial and often times to appeals.

[@CameronsCandorOriginal]

That's a long time. How old were you and they when you finally decided to go?

[@cdorman11]

7:26 Buy an outline after you've done your own. *Then* compare. Keep it deep, then be taught how to do it better than you could on your own. 10:34 There is no right or final answer. But if the prof falls silent, it was effectively just that. 12:35 String of failed marriages 18:02 He asks Ss to critique each other. 23:22 I teach for free. They pay me to grade. No mention of how realistic it is for a student with no analytical ability to get past the LSAT.

[@jackiepyzocha7380]

How about "Webster v Blue Ship Tea Room" or "Stambovsky v Ackley" for cases?

[@6B8RX]

The best part of 'Paper Chase' is when Kingsfield catches Hart sneaking out of his house after banging his daughter, and then calls on each of the students around him before glaring directly at him and asking someone else the question.

[@rosemariekury9186]

I just loved the series so that’s why I watched this. I thought it was very interesting, and thank my lucky stars I never considered law school!

[@justinhoney1969]

Dunno if you already have a video on the topic, but what do you recommend for a 30 year old person who has been out of college for 5 or so years contemplating law school

[@Learnlawbetter]

I’ve had plenty of students in their 30’s over the years. Not an issue.

[@jackiepyzocha7380]

Good job, Hart!

[@jackiepyzocha7380]

Does the Socratic method have to be intimidating?

[@Learnlawbetter]

It normally isn't as intimidating as you see it in Paper Chase. But students get nervous as they don't know when they will be call on.

[@xavariusquest4603]

It's not that the Socratic Method has to be intimidating it is that it can be intimidating because it makes public an individuals weaknesses. Trouble with public speaking, not fully prepared, lazy, or not up to the challenge of the program....all of these can be overcome. Remember that, for a program like this, less than 5% of applicants are accepted. They will not accept a student if they truly believed the student couldn't succeed. So an effort has to be made to retrain the mind to remove intimidation from the equation. Most entering students have little experience with this form of pedagogy. But in this case, consider that the profession requires one to be prepared, knowledgeable, and confident. If, in the worst case scenario, a future clients life was on the line (and quite literally in the attorneys hands), they'd expect some very intense question and answer repartee between them and the bench as they put forward the case for the defendant. The classroom shown here is preparation in an environment where the only potential casualty is ego. That's a small price for the development of intellect and professional bearing. A better question is the criteria entering students choose to use to select the winner from amongst the candidate grad programs. One would think that, given the massive commitment in time, mental effort and money to be expended, they'd choose a program that fits their learning style best. If the SM is intimidating, then a weeks visit would have made it clear that a particular school is not appropriate for them.

[@westlock]

Regarding how professors choose which students to call on, I hear that some assign a number to each student, then use a random number generator to create a list of calls for each class. That way, getting a professor's attention will not make a difference. Of course, the students are still called on by name, not number.

[@Learnlawbetter]

Others use index cards, which they shuffle and go through the deck and then reshuffle. I use a seating chart, and mark each time I call on someone. Once I’ve called on everyone once, then I go through the chart again, but not in any order.

[@westlock]

@@Learnlawbetter You say that only five to ten percent of a law class get an A. Is grade inflation not a problem?

[@Learnlawbetter]

Grade inflation is a problem, though at the lower levels. By that I mean that a law school’s forced grade distribution artificially increases grades for the bottom students. So a student that would have earned a D ends up with a C.

[@westlock]

@@Learnlawbetter What percentage of your students graduate, and how many actually become lawyers?

[@jackiepyzocha7380]

It seems more democratic this way.

[@krisellentaucan2603]

Hi professor! I'm enrolling to law school this August. Your tips are really helpful. Could you also recommend what books to read? I think the books do not need to be all boring and voluminous so how about novels good for law students? Looking forward to it. Thanks!

[@Learnlawbetter]

I did a video on books to read before law school: kzbin.info/www/bejne/ZnbSpmyJg6mkbtU

[@jackiepyzocha7380]

Try One L by Scott Turow, I am not a professor, but have read both books, they are excellent.

[@bennyh.9717]

Professor Baez, thank you so much for your videos. I wish you were my professor.

[@isabelamacavei1333]

He gives great advice. Volunteering for the job but being paid for the grading of tests, priceless remark.

[@mohammadchoudhry5183]

Do you think it’s better to be a CPA or a lawyer? Or both?

[@Learnlawbetter]

I would choose one or the other, but not both. That is because there isn't really any over lap. A lawyer handle legal issues, while a CPA does auditing. Talk to a few in each field and ask them what their typical day looks like. I know one lawyer who stopped telling people that he was also a CPA because they wanted his to review financial statements. He didn't want to do that anymore--that is why he had become a lawyer.

[@lupaphormy1125]

@@Learnlawbetter Could the deeper understanding of tax law be of benefit for a type of corporate lawyer?

[@Learnlawbetter]

Tax law is primarily about understanding a complex set of rules. Lawyers go beyond that and develop critical thinking skills.

[@lupaphormy1125]

@@Learnlawbetter So having an understanding of specific rules could be beneficial when paired with critical thinking skills? I see an accounting degree as a practical bachelor's for prospective lawyers (I'm a high school senior 2020). Especially considering law seems to have a broad spectrum of undergrad degrees.

[@rickswineberg]

My accouting professor in College was a CPA and an tax attorney

[@billmason2785]

Socratic method needs a return.... because I like the, "then what"then what then what approach....it pushes the intellect and doesn't tolerate a weak society The study of law requires a casting aside of, personal relations and ineffectual social connection....

[@ms.annthrope415]

This cold calling and forcing students to answer and debate the issues is good training. In court, you are expected to know the cases and motions and responses and judges may question the attorneys to clarify their positions and distinguishing one case from another or how to convince the judge of the validity of your position. I didn't have 50 hours a week to study. I worked a full time job and commuted to night class. I took 12 units at a time. So i only had time to read 80-100 pages per class pwr week, write 12-15 briefs per class or week. My week was timed to the second in managing which was was for which class. I had bo time for study groups, no time to read the hornbook, supplements, taped lectures, or any other study aids. 20 year prosecutor now retired.

[@tonyberkel6323]

A binding contract must mutually benefit both parties in terms of consideration.

[@jonahansen]

I thought everyone gets an "A" at Harvard nowadays....

[@tod3msn]

I really like John Houseman's capturing the essence of higher education. He is the professor most would aspire to but precious few ever reach. He cares about the students through his probing educational style and his insistence on excellence. If all professors were John Houseman's interpretation of Professor Kingsfield higher education would be amazing! Praise to James Stephen's version of Hart which is more realistic than Timothy Bottoms version in the movie. James Stephens was a normal law student while Timothy Bottoms was a some version of overly earnest and strident student who was more of an advocate than a first year law student. Like a mini Mother Theresa.

[@jackiepyzocha7380]

I was accused of being thorough in high school for a paper in high school.

[@jackiepyzocha7380]

Mrs. Carlisle gave them (defendant) the money, the "sale, but as Hart said, she suffered the inconvenience, the flu, despite using the ball."

[@lefthome3191]

Beau Baez --- what a great name.

[@jackiepyzocha7380]

Law doesn't happen by osmosis or relationship as you said, Professor Baez.

[@amesbancal]

One remark : in the movie girls are never questionned...

[@orepatrick3666]

Not true, the woman with the southern accent giving the facts of a case

[@cenid2011]

Blair Brown? Carlisle case?

[@cenid2011]

Intimidates men, only, too.

[@jackiepyzocha7380]

Understand, apply. Lots of analysis.

[@davidsoto4394]

Excellent video.

[@drpoundsign]

Good Ole Perry Mason. He got all the innocent defendants off.

[@Learnlawbetter]

And of course, that was almost everyone he ever represented. Only a few guilty defendants along the way.

[@jeffcoat1959]

Mr. Hart! That's the most intelligent thing you've said today - you may take your seat.

[@mgbsecteacher]

I am working on my Ph. D and was allowed to take one Law School Course with special permission. The students were backstabbing, arrogant, snide, denigrating and the professor was a short, mean SOB. It was the worst experience. They system is corrupt and each law school turns out mean-spirited, conniving graduates.

[@xavariusquest4603]

So, one classroom experience led you to castigate an entire system and profession. That's probably not something taught in your PhD program.

[@LetsDruz]

You sound pretty insufferable. So perhaps you’re the issue.

[@marcuscicero6199]

The courtroom is a battlefield and the law is the ammunition. You have to be tough. Looks like you wimped out and rationalized it as corrupt because you couldn’t take it.

[@lamper2]

Watching this again 4/1/23 1:39 did anyone in this scene become a famous actor? or was their peak and now most people today don't even know what movie this is so they can't even boast about it.

[@waltergilastete]

¿Dónde puedo conseguir la película o la serie? no está en netflix ni amazon prime... tendrá algún link? gracias

[@Learnlawbetter]

No lo sé. Lo siento. Está disponible en Amazon en los Estados Unidos.

[@waltergilastete]

@@Learnlawbetter muchas gracias. En Amazon de Perú no está disponible.

[@EnergeticWaves]

thank you I prefer to pass

[@Learnlawbetter]

LOL

[@TheLifeEvents]

The movie is a classic. The Tv series I like how the relationship develops. Please comment

[@Learnlawbetter]

I saw most of Season 1, but never got not it.

[@SavageLife84]

Kingsfield a law school legend film. Watched this while studying law. Not at harvard though. Theres also the series, i like the film but the series more because there are more episodes.. Civil action is good too

[@jackiepyzocha7380]

What about "The Firm"? The book and movie. Overbilling is unethical.

[@marlonmoncrieffe0728]

Video Topic Suggestion: Should all laws (or, at least, FEDERAL ones) expire after X amount of time? Thomas Jefferson suggested that all laws-which are NOT to be confused with AMENDMENTS-should expire after twenty-five years because 'the Earth is for the living and not the dead.'

[@Learnlawbetter]

I don’t think you understand how many federal laws there are. In addition to statutes, you have regulations, and court decisions. Congress would pass a law extending them.

[@ChicagoDB]

Houseman was superb and he earned his Oscar.

[@dps6198]

This is a film not a documentary. We don't care about accuracy we want to be entertained.

[@Learnlawbetter]

Yes, but viewers of a film are still interested in what is real and what is pure fantasy.

[@monaghana8088]

As a Canadian Lawyer, it's interesting that the United States has an an exam after every semester. Aside from my constitutional law course, every one of my year long courses was one final exam. There was an exam at the end of the first semester but that only accounted for 20% of your grade and only counted if you did better on that exam than your actual final. I'd much prefer the system you guys have, because final exam season as a 1l was one of the most stressful periods of my life. At least they were open book though!

[@katherinelawrence3032]

You gave only four out of five Justices because the film is dated, but that is not the fault of the film made in 1973. I took Contracts from Areeda at HLS 1975-76 and felt the film was accurate, though Areeda, unlike Kingsfield, had a sense of humor e.g. referring to "twenty bishops" witnessing an event in his hypotheticals.

[@drpoundsign]

WOW! Like morning report in medical residency. I got chewed up there. I'm only a Doctor. I wasn't thought to be mathematical enough for The Law (and most lawyers don't do so well financially anyhow)

[@jackiepyzocha7380]

I hope the student does not have vertigo.

[@sgsmozart]

I was in college in California when this film was first released. I enjoyed it and wondered at the time if this really accurately portrayed an Ivy League school. In my senior year of college, I had an English professor for the "History of the English Language" who was very much like Kingsfield...and I absolutely HATED him ! Kingsfield's approach may work for law school but for other courses I think it is stifling. I enjoyed your commentary about the film. Yes...we all wore our hair like Hart.

[@Learnlawbetter]

I’ve met many lawyers from that era who confirmed the stereotype at their law school. The stories from the 50’s are even worse.

[@jackiepyzocha7380]

Hello Professor Baez, any relation to Joan?

[@Learnlawbetter]

Well actually, my sister-in-law is Joan Baez. But not the singer Joan Baez

[@Learnlawbetter]

No

[@louellalanan8386]

Law is just a jealous mistress. I think that it's the person with no commitment and not the law per se. I believe that couples doesn't work their relationship when someone is a lawyer it's because they don't commitment and trust. If only they treat their spouses as a motivation rather than a distraction.

[@Learnlawbetter]

That is an astute observation. It is looking at the same thing, but viewing it as a positive rather than a negative.

[@louellalanan8386]

@@Learnlawbetter thanks sir

[@bwagenberg]

I wish you explained in more detail (spent more time on) how you graded the film at the end of your video. 4 justices.

[@Learnlawbetter]

The part of the movie I found far fetched was the relationship he had with Kingfield's daughter. That he happened to find her in Boston, then end up in a relationship is strange. But it adds to the plot, creating a love interest necessary for a successful movie.