Paper Mario: The Origami King (Zero Punctuation)

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This week on Zero Punctuation, Yahtzee reviews Paper Mario: The Origami King.
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#ZeroPunctuation

[@disclancer]

"Didn't realise he had that kind of power" says the guy who accidentally founded the PCmasterrace

[@Abion47]

There's no limit to the amount of power you can gain if you're the master of irony and hyperbole in a world where people take everything literally and personally.

[@mredbadger]

Getting weird Redditors to form a cult around a single joke that they repeat for years isn’t really on the same level as this

[@nonamepasserbya6658]

@@mredbadger He literally had the developers of Infamous and PROTOTYPE to do a bikini drawng contest from a joke. Yahtzee has more say than he thinks

[@Resters52_official]

@@nonamepasserbya6658 I'm gonna need some proof on that, because if they actually went through with it that's hilarious

[@Ineedgames]

It's funny because he wrote that as an insult. But know how clueless they were they took it as a complement.

[@2CPhoenix]

“I think Paper Mario might be my Sonic the Hedgehog.” Oof, that hit home.

[@marcoasturias8520]

That´s impossible, Paper Mario had good games.

[@udhsids]

@@marcoasturias8520 and so did Sonic so get off the hate boner because no IP is perfect.

[@prcervi]

@@marcoasturias8520 paper mario had a unquestionably good game in the less distant past than sonic did, but the effect is about the same on the long time fan's emotions though even the awful paper mario games were still(mostly) functional, the awful sonic games really, really weren't...

[@PipeGuy64Bit]

@@prcervi To be fair I can only consider Shadow The Hedgehog, Sonic 06, Sonic and The Secret Rings as the only objectively bad main series Sonic games. Also no Sonic Boom doesn't count because that's a spinoff game. The rest range from mediocre to great depending on your subjective view.

[@coolgreenbug7551]

@@PipeGuy64Bit I don't think I have ever heard anyone complain about the classic sonic stages in Unleashed

[@sylvanas9329]

Fun fact: the devs straight up said that they’re not allowed to make new characters based on existing Mario entities. The bob-omb Yahtzee said was a step in the right direction, but really could have used a unique design? They couldn’t have made it if they wanted to. The only reason the exposition fairy and the big bad got through was because they weren’t based on Mario things whatsoever. Yes, Nintendo is so protective of their stuff that not even their own devs can do interesting things with them. EDIT: Incorrect. This was suggested to the devs, but wasn't an order. The devs just decided to go about it in literally the most boring way possible.

[@LloydTavner]

I feel it might be less Nintendo and more Miyamoto, from what we've peeked from behind the curtain it seems he's very controlling over Mario and he's kind of a big deal for the company so they sort of let him now.

[@Arun_7]

@@LloydTavner what has become of miyamoto. I cant even imagine him outright blocking creativity like that

[@saadrai7381]

@@Arun_7 His formula of "gameplay first" was something that worked in the 80s and 90s but it's clearly become a bit outdated now. Even the stories in games like Ocarina of Time existed because people like Yoshiaki Koizumi had to work their way around Miyamoto due to him stating that the story was unimportant and confused the person playing. In terms of Paper Mario, from what I can gather he believes that a new and interesting combat gimmick would keep the games fresh. In a video from the channel Video Game Storytime, apparently the first blueprints of Sticker Star featured original Turn Based Action but Miyamoto flat out rejected it, saying that it was boring.

[@J05Youtube]

@@naransolongoboldbayer8030 Bobby's design plays into his arc as a character. That's one of those cases where I don't think putting a costume on a character would benefit them.

[@Carlos-ln8fd]

Reminds me of when Yahtzee met the developers of Remember Me and they were like "man, we were planning on doing all the things you said we should do but couldn't because of production problems".

[@Lacedtheinfinite]

“I think paper mario might be my sonic the hedgehog” You’ve become the very thing you swore to destroy

[@MysteriumArcanum]

"You were the chosen one! You were supposed to take the piss out of the brainless fanboys, not join them!"

[@shaesullivan]

@@MysteriumArcanum You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become generic.

[@trycon40]

@@MysteriumArcanum orogami king: well from my point of view the relay cool teacher is the one that is evil............

[@beechteeth]

@@MysteriumArcanum I HATE YOU

[@beechteeth]

@@trycon40 Well then you are lost!

[@Dirtyblue929]

"I didn't know I have that kind of power" said the guy who convinced Suckerpunch Studios and Radical Entertainment to send him pictures of their rival company's mascot in drag to settle the question whose game he liked more.

[@SerLagsalot]

Excuse me?! Is there more story to this, because I want to know more.

[@Kefkaesque13]

@@SerLagsalot He spent the Prototype ZP episode comparing/contrasting the game to Infamous in various categories to determine which did the "supervillain sandbox game" concept better, only for it to come out a tie. As such, Yahtzee declared he would award victory to whichever game's developer sent him the best picture of the rival game's main character wearing a woman's bra.

[@Kingsman88115]

@@Kefkaesque13 And it did, in fact, happen.

[@therealdude707]

So who won?

[@Dirtyblue929]

@@therealdude707 IIRC Suckerpunch did because their image was higher quality and less creepy

[@sailoritaly]

It’s nice to see Yahtzee’s psychic powers being used once again

[@Ben_R4mZ]

I think it's more the Nintendo devs saving themselves time by stealing Yahtzee's ideas.

[@MrOmegatronic]

Can't be, @@Ben_R4mZ, since I'm pretty sure one of his ideas was "make a traditional _Paper Mario_ game again". xD

[@dragonfire420blazin8]

@Ethan Magor I agree. Its starting to get rather creepy how many times this happens. What is this 10th time.

[@vice-virgo9635]

Yahtzee is to gaming what Neal Stephenson is to literature. It's kinda freaky.

[@adsilcott]

at 1:01 I thought Yahtzee did a great job of coming up with the dumbest idea ever with "Minecraft without building"... I died a little inside when Minecraft Dungeons popped up a couple seconds later and I realized he wasn't even being sarcastic.

[@amaryllis0]

Dungeons isn't "Minecraft without building" though, it's a dungeon crawler with a Minecraft aesthetic

[@ivanrzhanoy9389]

@@amaryllis0 Which still doesn't have building, i.e. the core of Minecraft

[@amaryllis0]

​@@ivanrzhanoy9389 But it's not Minecraft. It's a different game with a Minecraft theme. It's like calling Paper Mario "Mario without platforming", as if to imply we just took Super Mario Bros and removed the platforming mechanics. No, it's an RPG with Mario characters.

[@metalnut92]

@@amaryllis0 The point he's making is that the Minecraft IP isn't all that interesting when you remove the building aspect. I've seen plenty of reviews and comments suggesting that even people who really enjoyed Minecraft Dungeons didn't understand why it needed the Minecraft paintjob slapped on it.

[@zjzr08]

@@metalnut92 I don't play Minecraft, but just like Paper Mario, slapping a known series name, surely attracts more buyers really.

[@officialgagethepyro5391]

Jokes on you Yhatz, Nintendo already used the “Vibe Scepter” in another game

[@aztn19]

Two games, if the mention of it in the first Mario RPG as a gag counts 😅🤷🏾‍♂️

[@cerdgold225]

I'm sorry WHAT?!

[@Chris-mc2dt]

Cerd Gold Super Princess Peach

[@ezekielmartin4323]

@@cerdgold225 Look it up, dude. The reason Princess Peach isn't fucking Mario is because she's jilling off 24/7.

[@thedawsonator1628]

You know...it took me a bit to remember Super Princess Peach...

[@lucuador1992]

We're in the "Mario party but everyone is in a same car" era of paper mario

[@2la84me]

This is very true. Why couldn't we go back to Mario Party 2?

[@ShadwSonic]

No, that was Sticker Star. We're in the Super Mario Party era of Paper Mario, where they finally realize they've screwed up by trying to reinvent the wheel, only they've forgotten where the original wheel blueprint went to, resulting in something based off their loose memories of it. Of course this one did try to do new things as well, but I think the aspects not tied to Sticker Star's horribleness were actually decent for the most part. Yes, that includes the Legion of Stationary, they took the "incongruence" factor that made "thing" attacks disjointed and turned it into an asset (won't work a second time though, and would've been even better had "things" never existed prior). It's the refusal to have anything other than stock characters and to "be approachable" that are still dragging it down.

[@ShadwSonic]

@@2la84me You mean MP3, right? The one that actually had the most authentic strategy element to it?

[@zjzr08]

@@ShadwSonic Interestingly, I kind of agree with that, with the difference IMO that Super Mario Party feels like Classic Mario Party Lite, while Origami King still has hints of Color Splash there but as games goes seem to be servicable to classic fans.

[@vice-virgo9635]

@@2la84me 4*. The fourth entry was the final *good* Mario Party.

[@GinkgoBalboa142]

As an occational substitute teacher, this hits so close to home that you'd get arrested for domestic violence. Like, I had to improvise a lesson in making paper planes once :X

[@Shadows_Inc]

The reason the characters aren't interesting is that more modern Nintendo is afraid of character manipulation (changing an existing character type to be unique or interesting) and wants all their IP characters to look the same as they always have so they aren't messed with, and if you want to make a new character, you have to make a new original one. It's why many of those "helper" sprites look completely different like they're made by different artists. When I worked at Nintendo, it was very clear they were trying to keep everything as preserved as they could for as long as they could. Problem is, you can only preserve something for so long before it gets stale. The most they'll do is add a scarf or something (ex. Pokémon mystery dungeon) but there's no real difference being made. Thousand Year Door was interesting because the companions were original or had unique quirks visually or narratively that set them apart and made them interesting (like Bobbery's dead wife story, remember that?) The only time they change stuff and take a risk is when the previous installment bombs a bit and the brand sorely needs an adrenaline shot to stay alive. This is what happened with Breath of the Wild after the failure of Skyward Sword. You can only fail upward so much before falling back down, and that was the last straw, and required them to rethink the formula (coincidentally, rethinking the formula was actually just bringing it back to its roots with free exploration and very little narrative like the first Legend of Zelda) but that worked very well, and was a great game for the most part. The problem with Mario, is that it's a flagship title, so innovation in current Nintendo will be limited if any. Most of the titles do ok, and don't fail hard enough to warrant changing anything, which is a problem. Personally, I thought (hoped) Sticker Star was going to be the last straw that forced them to rethink and look at what made people love Thousand Year Door, but it turns out they don't seem to care enough, since it's not a mainline Mario title, which I feel should merit MORE creativity since Paper Mario could be considered a knock off that they could do whatever with. But since it's using well known characters, they want to keep brand recognition no matter what. So the background koopas with pointy sunglasses, the female explorer Goomba, the rough Sailor Bob-omb, the punk child yoshi, the super fat toad on the train, the mafia don Delfino Piantas, and many more interesting depictions of characters are probably never going to happen again under current leadership.

[@2la84me]

And its a damn shame. I guess the lesson is to show your thoughts with your money. Fun fact though, Sticker Star DID sell well because it was marketed heavily towards children and I think Color Splash anf Paper Jam sold ALRIGHT. Itd be interesting to hear more about your time at Nintendo though. Like what you did and how you enjoyed it if thats cool.

[@Shadows_Inc]

@@2la84me it was ok, was working on games, most development/localization and testing is done in a really boring grey two story office building you wouldn't look twice at. However, the building across the way where the sales and marketing, etc. was done was a high end multi story modern art exhibition of extravagance of a glass building. It was very clear where their priorities were. Honestly the only really good thing about working there was Cafe Mario (the food court/cafeteria). Otherwise it was like any other strict, cutthroat, boring and overworked office job.

[@vice-virgo9635]

Bobbery's wife's name is Scarlett, by the way. Her letter was very poetic, and ironically, if it had been delivered duly, he'd have never lost his love of the sea.

[@mystereoheart2579]

God, this hits hard. Got any more insight on Pokemon? I love the Pokemon series but it's the same issue, the games are wildly bland but perform well enough to keep selling and it drives me nuts.

[@Shadows_Inc]

@@mystereoheart2579 The issue with Pokémon, is why change what sells? There's also another angle you have to look at it with as well, and it's the same argument I have for tired old cliché jokes in cartoons being reused. Essentially, a formulaic approach toward an existing idea, may seem bland, but that idea is new to the child that experiences it. Just because something is not innovative, does it mean a child seeing it for the first time should not experience it, simply because an older audience craves innovation? The issue of course, is that can only work for so long as you deal with an aging demographic. You must try to keep old fans happy, while making it approachable to a new audience or children, which is why Pokémon is unique in that every single game is essentially its own standalone game that you could potentially start with, having no real significant connection to each other, that you need to play 6 other games to get. This is done to play to the largest audience as possible, for maximum profit, and it works, as Pokémon is the most valuable and profitable IP in existence. However, Nintendo has in recent years, run into a snag. Having the Pokémon franchise been around for so long, "most" of the audience is adult now, and less and less children are picking up the new games, focusing more on social media or fad games like fortnite and warzone. It's a mirrored attitude from the 80s zeitgeist, where kids don't like "cute, fun things" anymore because they want to be seen, and feel like, more of an adult. All this, fortunately, actually answers your question. Those new polls and numbers from a handful of years ago, that showed that most of the entire Pokémon fan-base is adult, have forced the Pokémon Company to shift focus. They now know that most of their audience is adult, and have to listen to their desires, which is why in recent years you may have seen a significant budget increase in the quality of the show animation, much of the X and Y show had animation quality similar to what would be used in big production Pokémon animated movies in the past. The other shift that they have done, is listen to desires and grievances in the Fandom, much like yours, and are trying to branch out and play catch-up with other games, to keep relevant. This is why we got Pokémon Legends Arceus. When it first came out, and I played it, it was a genuinely fun experience, but I could tell, that due to lacking features and minimal area design, that this was a stepping stone. I could tell that Legends Arceus was what some of us call, a "practice project", wherein you become familiar with a new system, learning as you develop, but not trying too hard because it's not "intended" to use the full scope of what the development team wants to do, only getting the team familiar with the new systems and features. I knew that it would be the future of the franchise, because it was clear to me they were taking the time learning the systems and how to approach it, and they wouldn't throw that much money and R&D into a spinoff side project. Sure enough, recently Pokémon Scarlet & Violet were announced, and seem to be expanding everything Legends Arceus set into motion. This is also why, even though Arceus came out early this year, the new ones will be coming later this same year, because Legends Arceus was "not" the focus, it was the "practice project" they slapped a label on and sold, while they were focusing all their effort on developing Scarlet and Violet at the same time as Arceus. So to answer your question in short, yes, change IS happening to Pokémon, but it's moving at a snail's pace because the Pokémon Company needs to try and get it right, and balance a lot of plates at once. A lot of people point to the company worth, and how much money they have, and whine that the games aren't better, but they need to remember, that's the company as a "whole". That means the anime and the hundreds of millions of dollars that costs (which in Japan and America, anime is essentially a glorified commercial because there's not an effective enough way to monetize it without merchandise sales to justify production cost, so in many cases, like with Pokémon, the show is actually a financial loss for them on its own, but helps promote sales in other areas), as well as the manga (many different iterations, publication companies, print companies, artists, writers, etc), the Pokémon cards (It's own massive industry that needs tens of thousands of workers and distribution analysts, artists, game balancing teams, etc.), the merchandise (toys, shirts, puzzles, and more, each needing warehouses, production facilities, and massive amounts of staff and networking distribution), and much more, until you eventually get to the games, are all hanging on delicate marionette threads. When you are handling such a delicate balancing act like that, one failed game could domino EVERY other department and industry under the Pokémon umbrella, so it really doesn't shock me at all how scared they are to take risks. That said, they ARE taking risks now, and I expect more innovation in the future. Development and planning take years though, and Pokémon usually tries to get at least one game series out every year or two. But with these bigger games adding more features, they're going to either have to grow their teams (which can speed up development, but create a messier, more unrefined product from "too many cooks in the kitchen" essentially), or they can release "better" games less frequently. My prediction is the former, then the latter. I expect them (to appease shareholders) to continue their current speedy release schedules. But due to the new scope of their games, will start getting bad scores and fan disappointment after the initial high scores and praise from Scarlet and Violet, as the open world novelty wears off and people notice the issues in the newer games after those two. Because of this they may end up trying to refocus on more "complete" games, that release once every few years or so, while side-teams release other spinoff games like Ranger, Mystery Dungeon, Puzzle Café, etc. This will create a better end product, while still seeming like they're releasing frequently. I haven't worked in the Pokémon Company specifically, people think Pokémon is made in the same space Mario and Zelda are, since they think it's "all Nintendo", but the Pokémon Company owns it, GameFreak develops it, and Nintendo is just its platform. Also very little is actually "made" in America when it comes to those games, even if we have meetings about it. So I can't say what the specific workflow is like at the Pokémon Company, but from what I've observed, and through my own experience, those are my predictions. In short, yes, innovation is happening and will continue, but it's going to take time and be small amounts of progress and change, from generation to generation, for the safety of the company. So far, Scarlet and Violet are likely going to be the largest departure from the formula aside from Legends Arceus, though I expect some changes Arceus made, to be undone, and Scarlet will be a bit more traditional, as if Red and Blue were fully realized open world 3D games ("Red & Blue" being the "Scarlet & Violet" naming color parallel), essentially trying to "start the series over" with a new direction so to speak. So it might still be a bit traditional, but it will pave the way for further innovation in the future. That's purely my predictions though, and not based on any insider information or anything.

[@superdaveozy7863]

It is insane how much replay value Paper 64 and TTYD still have after all these years.

[@CannibalCory]

Nintendo missed an undertale-like non-violent "battle" system opportunity where you simply unfold your opponents, missing all the subtle allegory along with it.

[@sylvanas9329]

....oh my gods that would have been AMAZING.

[@iko2908]

I don't think anyone was really expecting Paper Mario to have any non-violent allegory...

[@nekonatum]

Doesn't that "non-violent" unfolding of origami will be just like crushing bones with decapitation of a human just by bare hands? 🤔

[@HellecticMojo]

@@nekonatum no, especially since the game actually features dismemberment. Toad loses his face and there's also a severed head

[@micah3807]

I mean in universe the explanation is that the enemies are stapled in their oragami forms to stop them from unfolding by themselves/mario's magical hammer abilities (but then not the toads for no reason??). It doesn't make the most sense, and it implies that everything goes back to normal after you kill the stapler boss, but yeah that would have been much better. Many things would have been much better.

[@mredbadger]

It’s really something that the general consensus behind this game is “it would be good without the shit combat”, which is a step up from the last 2

[@boatknight2246]

"Overseason my ring piece" Yahtzee needs to be immortal, all future generations need him.

[@alexnoman1498]

After the oil you are in fact not supposed to add vinegar, salt and pepper. Who knew!

[@IncoherentRampage]

Fingers crossed for the next game to be “Paper Mario and the Giant Electric Dildo”...

[@brunocaro6366]

Paper Mario and the Moist Quest

[@user-os6gb9bq5v]

If that happens i will eat my own house

[@TehCookieLoop]

Paper Mario and the single mother's bedside cabinet.

[@FutureDeep]

Spin-off: Origami King and his origami thing'.

[@Tabryne]

ESRB: Rated E for everyone!

[@jakethejake1]

More surprised he didn’t take about the fact that everyone is made of paper, enemies are mutated friends that you kill, they drop confetti (small cut up paper), which you use to patch up the world

[@RacingSnails64]

jakethejake1 so Paper Mario has become the gore nests of the Doom reboot games. yikes.

[@aelechko]

Because it's the same concept as the paint as blood from the last game and he wouldn't be good at his job if he just repeated the same thing again. It's why is general public in the comment section who think we're really clever once In a while aren't getting paid to do it.

[@BugsyFoga]

Yatzhee:"What's next , A whole puncher boss in the next game " Nintendo:*Secretly writes down in the corner.

[@MushroomGuy12]

Yatzhee should sarcastically suggest that the next game go back to the style of TTYD so Nintendo would copy that too.

[@LautrecOfCarim]

If these Sonic parallels continue I'll be looking forward to the aggressively edgy spin off title staring Waluigi. Heh.

[@alexnoman1498]

Waluigi with an AK and a trench coat.

[@jamisdue3545]

TOK isn’t Mania, it’s not classic. It’s not Forces either, TOK is actually good. Is it Generations??

[@Brandonious15987]

Not Wario?

[@timjennings4342]

Paper Waluigi: Unsnipped Get it? It’s because he’s uncircumcised.

[@Volvagia1927]

@@jamisdue3545 Considering the original comment is, basically, trying to make a Paper Mario equivalent to Shadow the Hedgehog, that would make The Origami King Sonic Heroes.

[@considerthetubes2864]

Hole Punch is a pretty good boss though, I’m surprised how much personality they injected into a inanimate object

[@afterdinnercreations936]

It just made me sad. They explicitly can't make either new characters or jerry-rig any out of the Mario creatures so they only make ones out of the stuff around their fucking cubicles? Are we gonna get a boss-fight against a miniature-cactus or bobblehead of a long-dead celebrity?

[@aelechko]

Yet they can't put any into a living breathing character anymore

[@hazukichanx408]

@@afterdinnercreations936 "Cease creativity, cubicle slave. Your purpose is not to give personality, depth, nor life. Your purpose is to draw the funny man that everybody loves for no reason, in a way that does not alienate them because it never makes any moral statements, even really obvious ones like "mind control via hat magic is fucked up". Continue copy-pasting the funny man. Continue." -Nintendo

[@kingme1313]

@@aelechko I mean to be fair: Bowser is a big headed idiot, yet caring father as he always is Luigi is a bit air headed, but genuinely wants to help find the key to the castle (thus getting all the other keys that Mario needs) Olivia is a cinnamon bun who needs to be protected Bobby is an amnesiac who sacrifices himself to SAVE Olivia The only ones that I could see not being any real 'quirk' is Mario (silent protag, though does visibly react to things), Cap'n T' Ode (an old sea faring man), and Kamek (just really wants to help his boss)

[@aelechko]

@@kingme1313 why would an amnesiac sacrifice themselves to save someone they can't remember? And one trait does not a character make. That's just opening a dictionary, picking a word and assigning a name to it. Nintendo is a multibillion dollar company who have been doing this for forty bloody years. If Toyota's new car lineup this year was made of cardboard you wouldn't defend it. Why does Nintendo get a lazy pass? They have the ability to make terrific games and just don't. They choose not to. That shouldn't be celebrated or have excuses made for. It's crazy.

[@Richard-Crocidile]

Experimentation is always good but come on, do they seriously think a proper paper mario rpg similar to the thousand year door wouldnt sell on the Switch? Still a hell of a lot of potential waiting to be cracked.

[@Vvonter]

Nintendo is weird in that regard, since their decisions aren't solely focused on profit but standing out from the rest. Hence why even bananas in Breath of the Wild have a specific name, or how it's not open world but "open air."

[@therealdude707]

Nintendo is an enigma to me. They're happy to release very similar games 5 times (New super mario ds,wii,2,u,luigi u) but are afraid of releasing a more conventional paper mario rpg.

[@hopeatkinson4790]

Hell, I'd even just buy a port of the SMRPG, PM and TTYD on Switch.

[@Rayen015]

I honestly think Nintendo is in a place where they straight up do not care about regions outside Japan. They've looked at their earning and NA pays for itself and a little extra but if they closed it they could continue in just Japan. And their releases seem to support that. Everything seems to be made with japanese interests and demographics in mind.

[@Buglin_Burger7878]

Nothing is always good, if I experiment by replacing my car engine with a train engine it isn't good. If I start experimenting on human babies that isn't good. This is what hurts Nintendo so much. They create something and either refuse to or fully commit to it and it creates the double standard which is killing PM's community. SS was too much like TTYD so it became SS... but CS is okay despite being nearly identical to SS.

[@williamapple7705]

I still don't like the trend towards making the worlds more paper-like. I feel the art design in the first three games was perfect. Not too on the nose, but the gimmick is sort of obvious. It felt funny but not forced.

[@ManoredRed]

I haven't played the later games, but in the first 3 games you sorta forget the world is made of paper most of the time. Occasionally its used for a puzzle or power, but its more of an art-style than anything else.

[@zjzr08]

Making the world itself paper rather than just an artstyle is already making conflicts in conversations about Paper Mario. Many do feel that Paper Mario is a separate character from Mario, when it wasn't originally the case. Now that there's an equal number of "Mario Story" and "Papercraft Mario" games it just makes it so mixed on what people think of the series when the two directions are apples and oranges. This would've been fine if we have "Mario Story" versions of the series in conjunction with the "Papercraft Mario" world, but we don't.

[@ManoredRed]

​@@zjzr08 I don't think Nintendo means for there to be continuity between Mario games, in any event. The RPGs don't really reference each other, at least not the ones I have played.

[@zjzr08]

@@ManoredRed Actually they do from time to time. Mario Party 64 referenced other spin-offs, especially with Luigi. TTYD referenced a lot of 64 places and sometimes characters. Super had an Otaku chameleon that has merch from the first 2 games. Superstar Saga referenced Dr. Mario, Geno AND Paper Mario (with the block research). Bowser's Inside Story had Fawful as a vilain and the Shroobs referenced. It's easy to dismiss Mario continuity because they are mostly self-contained, but they do try to reference other games and sometimes tie it in to make it feel like they're in the same Mushroom Kingdom (with different interpretations at times).

[@ManoredRed]

@@zjzr08 Yes but, there's a difference between a nod to previous games, and implying its the same story/continuity. I think of them as a series of alternate universes with various levels of overlap.

[@misteryA555]

That teacher metaphor is so accurate lol

[@tskmaster3837]

"I thin Paper Mario might be my Sonic the Hedgehog." Not being a sonic fan, I did not get the meaning of the line... or the heartache of the past several decades.

[@cloudtx]

You can replace Sonic with any franchise you once loved and keep giving chances to while it keeps disappointing you.

[@MrOmegatronic]

It's like being on a roller coaster, except you don't know whether the next loop or hill is going to suddenly launch you off at 10x speed into a pinnacle of excitement and mirth, or just unceremoniously dump you in a manure pile. And that's even _without_ getting into the ones that are awful to play but amazing to watch... xD

[@jackgarcia5926]

@@cloudtx FF, Starfox, Persona.. I've learned to cope by just playing the games I actually like. Or in the case of Starfox _the_ game I actually like.

[@so0meone]

It compares pretty well to the PM series in all honesty Sonic Adventure was a great game to start off the series, much like PM64 Sonic Adventure 2 improved on the formula of Sonic Adventure and perfected the Chao Garden system into something that still manages to be amazing 19 years after its release, much like how TTYD was a straight improvement over PM64, keeping all the features that made the original great while adding its own unique additions. I still play this game for the Chao Garden. It has way more depth than a lot of modern games, and it's just a side activity. Also, they're adorable. Sonic Heroes was our Super Paper Mario, a game that deviates from the original formula while still being pretty good. Unfortunately, we did lose the Chao Garden here, and it's yet to return. Heroes is still a fun game, but it's not quite on the same level as SA2 even if What I'm Made Of might be the best final boss theme the series has ever had. We've got a laundry list of disappointments now to parallel Sticker Star and Color Splash between Sonic 06, the Storybook games (although I will grant Sonic and the Black Knight that it's got a pretty fun combat system), arguably Sonic Unleashed and a few others before finally getting our Origami King in 2010's Sonic Colors, sort of. I say sort of because Origami King is a step in the right direction that led to a pretty good gameplay experience while Colors was simply an excellent 3D Sonic game with one of the best soundtracks to date. Reach For The Stars in particular, fantastic song. It still wasn't on the same level as SA2 in my opinion, but damn, it was GOOD and really if it had an updated Chao Garden and it was a bit longer a lot of people might even call it better than SA2. it was also very disappointingly short, as in "I finished the main story in five hours, now what?", but the gameplay is still top notch for a Sonic game and the Wisp system is awesome. Sonic Generations is another contender for the Origami King of the Sonic series, although once again it's actually really good as opposed to just a step in the right direction. It's basically what Sonic 06 should've been. We don't talk about the Sonic Boom series.

[@Umbra_Ursus]

On the bright side, Sonic still has 2 good movies to Mario's none.

[@jcace13]

That moment when you realise we could've had 4 sequels to Thousand-Year Door but instead they keep trying different weird things with the perfect formula.

[@roadjcat]

@@awkwardcultism Agreed. SPM was good. The following 3 games though...

[@2la84me]

@@awkwardcultism Its a shame how underappreciated SPM went for the longest while. If I had clout back then I would've given the game a good review but asked to return back to turn based combat.

[@2la84me]

@@Ryusuta Very Very true. We can do it ourselves now that Nintendo has screwed it up 3 times in a row (that that TOK is a bad game, its a fine game but its not a Paper Mario game)

[@cadence_2463]

@@awkwardcultism SPM is an 8/10. The mechanics were... the mechanics were what they were, but the characters, story, and world more than made up for the lackluster elements.

[@davidlane1248]

The ending sequence reminds me a particular "super cazsh" review: "Even Japan's atrocities are quirky! *That's not where a foot goes!* "

[@belltowersubductions5104]

“I think Paper Mario might be my Sonic the Hedgehog” Well that sort of spoils the rest of the video.

[@tilted3564]

I personally feel attacked, as I fell wholeheartedly into the interesting party member mechanic and was totally fucking heart wrenchingly disgusted by how they duped me.

[@SavestateComic]

I'm surprised they didn't go with building blocks to coincide with Lego Mario. I guess they developed the folding animation tech for Labo and had to use it for something.

[@PendragonDaGreat]

I maintain that Paper Mario and Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door are actually "Mario Story" games (Japanese title) and are essentially a different franchise than the later games, with Super Paper Mario acting as the bridge.

[@Vvonter]

They're stage plays. That's why the level design was for the most part left to right. Up until Super.

[@SkydreamerStudios]

Right, and then the Mario and Luigi titles are then the real successors of the Mario story line, instead of the later paper Mario titles.

[@FieryMeltman]

@@SkydreamerStudios Alphadream went bankrupt. Mario and Luigi is effectively dead.

[@hoodedman6579]

Super Paper Mario isn't really a bridge, it has even less to do with the later titles than it does the early titles; its just kind of an oddball standalone game.

[@SkyeBlueLily]

SPM is a spinoff of a spinoff. That's how it should be looked at, because once people stop comparing SPM to the first 2 Paper Mario games it's one of the best *Mario* games ever made (Easily in my personal Top 5)

[@93MANIAC]

I can't wait for Mario to team up with Clippy in the next Paper Mario game

[@MotherKojiro]

The single-chapter open ocean exploration thing was done in Wandersong a few years before this came out, and given that it reminds me of Paper Mario as almost a Point-and-Click Adventure, I wonder if they're just ripping their own spiritual imitators.

[@Action-Hero]

“I think Paper Mario might be my Sonic the Hedgehog.” Didn’t Silent Hill already fill that quota.

[@matthewmuir8884]

Is Silent Hill making new games?

[@Action-Hero]

@@matthewmuir8884 you obviously haven’t seen the Silent Hill review where he actually said Silent Hill is his Sonic.

[@matthewmuir8884]

@@Action-Hero I probably did a while ago and forgot about it.

[@Magmafrost13]

4:21 Yahtzee that's a parsnip, not a turnip

[@kompadre3]

"Had that kind of power", hole punch jokes? Sounds like Yahtzee would be rather playing Grim Fandango than this.

[@Prince-Bucket]

That substitute teacher metaphor is actually pretty accurate

[@Ninetails2000]

Is there heavy rain where you are, Yahtz, because you just went straight up Origami Killer...

[@Malenrick]

This is good. I like this joke.

[@vice-virgo9635]

I'm cut up over that one. I'm in pieces. I'm falling apart. Scattered on the wind.

[@duddude321]

*TFS Krillin voice* Oh my god, somebody finally put it into words. There hasn't been a single piece of PM ip worth buying since SPM.

[@BagelBrain]

I disagree

[@vice-virgo9635]

*Before SPM.

[@markharland2459]

Ever play the N64 Paper Mario? It's been so long but i remember loving it as a kid.

[@billybob9495]

Can't wait for the livestream.

[@E1craZ4life]

I don’t think we’re getting one.

[@jombilywobbily]

@@E1craZ4life Friday or so he tweeted. Same time.

[@megazordsez]

Simp

[@tejasgarhewal7509]

@@megazordsez ???

[@puffthecatpuff8931]

Water equals death makes sense, if everyone is made of paper.

[@zjzr08]

@@ForeverLaxx A constant reminder that the 2D on 3D in Classic Paper Mario (i.e. first 3) is just an aesthetic, not the real representation in their world.

[@vice-virgo9635]

Double-subverted: Boat Mode in TTYD was effectively one of two Origami forms he used, the other being Plane. They probably carried over the idea, but made it lamer because they didn't know better, or just didn't care.

[@Zilong09]

Calling it his Sonic the Hedgehog is painfully accurate...

[@Hollowolfjas4014]

"I didn't realize I had that kind of power." Well, you do. I mean Wolfenstein: The New Order was basically your joke review of Duke Nukem Forever made into a real game...

[@MelodicQuest]

Can't wait to see Yahtzee's prediction come true in Paper Mario: Kama Sutra

[@SiegeTF]

In the next game it will turn out that Peach passes the time teaching all the little Toads about justice, honor, and trigonometry, but gets replaced with an evil... Um... Where the hell is my Cards Against Humanity box when I need it?! Anyways, an evil thing (a slide ruler perhaps?) and gets locked in the castle basement.

[@Haplo699g]

Is that a turnip? Looks like a parsnip.

[@LemonGrinder]

A Swede is what they call a rutabaga Over in the UK

[@HiddenEvilStudios]

Yeah, but it wouldn't have worked with the alliteration.

[@lnsflare1]

You know, they could make a Sonic and Mario crossover game where Team Mario brings in the reputation and QA testing and Sonic can serve as the detached personality related to the game's theme (either speed or jewels, I guess).

[@AnonymousFreakYT]

The next Paper Mario will have a boss fight against a Goomba whose body grew extra tall. And Yahtzee will receive passwords, but just passwords. No other login information.

[@averagejoe5145]

You can blame Shigeru Miyamoto for all the bullshit surrounding the Paper Mario series. He's the reason Super Paper Mario was a platformer AND is apparently the reason a Paper Mario sequel that actually WAS more like The Thousand Year Door got canned & replaced with the MUCH shittier Sticker Star game. The idiot even said Sticker Star didn't even NEED a story in spite of the fact that IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE A RPG! He also forbade the use of the original characters from the first two games. I'm not making this up either. The team who worked on the game have admitted this in interviews. Iwata also confirmed at one point that the game that was more like the 2nd Paper Mario game was canned because of Miyamoto. Also, the creative team seem to think of Origami King as an adventure game strangely enough.

[@2la84me]

As much as I would like to join you on that its actually not the case. The simplified story is he said "To make the game simpler and easier for kids to play" as a suggestion and when the team was unsure how to proceed they took a poll IN JAPAN (for some reason despite it selling gangbusters everywhere else) about what people liked and cared about. The result came back (from the people who had no clue what they were talking about) that they didnt care and werent attached to anything about Paper Mario as a whole. So the team decided to do as Miyamoto suggested and simplified it for Sticker Star. So if anyone is to blame its the team for only getting the opinions of a small sect of Japanese gamers who may or may not have any attachment to the series and understood what made it good. At least that is the 3rd version of the story I heard after reading why the series became what it is. The first two were similar to the above story that it was a mandate and not a suggestion.

[@gonzalorubencachi4556]

ther game is an adventure one. a really good one. very zelda like inspired

[@hackcubit9663]

It's as if rather than actually take Yahtzee's complaints as ideas to improve the game, they just let his sarcastic comments take the form of an ideas workshop.

[@Shogunisdead]

Either Yahtzee is clairvoyant or the games industry is farming his videos for ideas cause their clearly out of them.🙃

[@Carlos-ln8fd]

More like he's got a grasp on how dumb the industry is

[@Shogunisdead]

@@Carlos-ln8fd this is true. For we all know that Yahtzee has told us time and time again that this is an industry that never learns anything.............tee hee hee.

[@Umbra_Ursus]

Why not both?

[@Shogunisdead]

@@Umbra_Ursus little do you know it is both. 😁

[@FunZies.]

There's a decent take-away to be had from this review, but all I can think about is Yahtzee's "seasoned rim!"

[@TheArchanjel]

"Cause, hey, Wind Waker was good." Lol.

[@Santoryu90]

Super Paper Mario: Not as bad as some people say but takes away the turn-based combat and is more of a platformer but has nice story and fun characters Sticker Star: Goes back to turn-based combat but has a lame gimmick, no partners, and hardly any original characters. Color Splash: Another gimmick, no partners, and 90% of the characters are Toads. The Origami King - A gimmick that makes combat seem more of a puzzle games, has partners but are temporary, and once again hardly any new characters. I’m sure I missed some things but it seems Nintendo though it seems to be more Miyamoto than Nintendo doesn’t like and or doesn’t understand what made the Paper Mario games good and so liked.

[@ianlittle1653]

It seems like you have not played TOK. It has a very engaging and fun world, good writing, great bosses. But go ahead and listen to 1 review and then shit on it.

[@2la84me]

@@ianlittle1653 Uh huh. Tell me where in the statement there is a lie. There is no discrepancy between what either Yahtzee says or this person here is saying. In fact if you listened to the video Yahtzee did say he enjoyed the game and then pointed out the flaws.......like he should. -The combat IS more like a puzzle game -Partners ARE temporary -There ARE hardly any new characters -Whoever is running the show on Paper Mario really doesnt know or understand what made the original and TTYD so good and actually has a good reason why the devs shouldnt be allowed to add new characters with interesting designs to the story. Yes its a good game. No its not a good "Paper Mario" game. This isnt a difficult concept to work out. Though in being fair TTYD had so much bananas shit in it im not surprised itll never happen again story wise but there is no excuse for ditching the combat that was slowly being perfected.

[@jamieramshaw8425]

Granted hole punch was a fantastic boss

[@bloodygypsy3740]

Having listened to all of his audiobook readings, it's super scary whenever some of his characters voice just materializes in a review!

[@austinmontgomery6683]

00:27 Had this happen to me, great job Yahtzee !

[@zjzr08]

It is interesting that they're trying to force the RPG elements when it really doesn't fit the current style -- but you know what puzzle game actually did the RPG elements well? Bookworm Adventures. No kidding, that game had attack and level up, and while making long words is the most ideal attack, certain bonuses makes it that you can do better with few letters as long as you had the right "powerups". The balance of it between a word puzzle and RPG is surprisingly great.

[@cmd1095]

I miss professor paper Mario, he was a great teacher. Can we please get him back?

[@angeldeb82]

LOLed at the imps, goombas farting coins, mushroom imps, the running gag of Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door being chained (at one point singing "That's the Way (I Like It)", and a lot of dead imps clustering up in a heap! Oh, and the black-out might orgy with the imps! XD

[@repeekyraidcero]

0:28 That teacher lol

[@GameKeeper28]

Until they release a Paper Mario game with unique looking party members and characters and an actually fun combat system with leveling up, I'm just going to ignore the Paper Mario series.

[@casbyness]

Pause at 1:17. Tilt your head a tiny fraction to the left. The two mushroom-heads create a 'Magic Eye' style 3D image.

[@Dr.Death8520]

Can't wait to see nintendo try to meet Yahtzee's challenge by making a slightly phallic mechanical boss where you plug a supa dupa card into it to make it vulnerable

[@frostyblade8842]

I actually really enjoyed this game. It was fun and the writing was pretty good

[@jordanj809]

I was expecting Ghost of Tsushima this week, but it makes sense that this would come first

[@DarkinBladeGaming]

You forgot to mention that the whole punch is also a homicidal disco star. :D

[@ZaydinTTV]

I cracked up quite a bit just at his tone when he made it clear he wasn't joking about the hole punch boss fight.

[@jombilywobbily]

I don't know how, why or when the devs took one hard-pressed look at the franchise to see what made it work and concluded "It's the paper shtick. This gimmick is the key to all this!". It'd be like removing Mario's jumping abilities from the main platformers.

[@fighteer1]

It's like how Ubisoft has seemingly decided that the least interesting part of the Assassin's Creed series is assassinating people.

[@retrogamelover2012]

It's called flanderization. I wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo were paranoid of their Paper Mario RPGs blurring together with mechanics and aesthetics to the other Mario RPGs, and ended up overcompensating to the point of trying to fix what wasn't broken.

[@ForrestFox626]

I missed the simple get experience and level up a stat gameplay from the first 2 games.

[@rockandrowl]

@@retrogamelover2012 well Mario and Luigi is dead

[@MrOmegatronic]

Honestly, if you ask me, they should've focused on the paper but _kept_ the RPG gameplay. It'd give the series its own unique identity, without actively and intentionally going out of its way to remove anything and everything that Miyamoto thinks the fans enjoy.

[@ultgamercw6759]

Sounds like paper Mario has paper thin content.

[@jbaby362]

Eyyy

[@Luna-Fox]

HAH

[@nobodyinparticular9640]

I don't see all this "fantastic writing" that everyone talks about when referring to this game as it's all paper puns

[@mrnoob1947]

Oh wow never heard THAT one before

[@vice-virgo9635]

Unfortunately, that's because all of the good parts were cut out.

[@kyokyo718]

I couldn't stop laughing at the Bowsette lewds xD god that trend was silly

[@talltroll7092]

Quite. EVERYONE knows that Gwen Tennyson lewds are best lewds. Hey, hey people

[@slambangaction]

2:35 Mario Odyssey had a Shogunate Japan level too, and it was absolutely fantastic! Sadly, it sounds like this is no Mario Odyssey. I wonder if we'll ever get a Mario platformer that good ever again...

[@uberculex]

Seriously!? Odyssey just came out for this console generation. You can't wax nostalgic about it like it's Mario 64. They haven't even released a new mario platformer yet so it's not like there's been a string of bad Mario platformers.

[@slambangaction]

@@uberculex Actually, I just played Mario Odyssey for the first time a couple months ago. I went into with reasonably high expectations, but I was not expecting it to outdo the Mario Galaxy games, my erstwhile favorite Nintendo platformers. Odyssey blew said expectations so far out of the water, I'm still struggling to imagine something of the same level of creativity and enjoyability coming out any time soon, although I suppose that just means I'm not very creative myself.

[@uberculex]

@@slambangaction sorry, I think I misread the tone of the original comment. Odyssey was really good :)

[@nobodyinparticular9640]

@@slambangaction play a hat in time then. Thank me later.

[@aquamarinerose5405]

From what I understand about the "it's all just generic mario creatures" is Executive Fuckery said they're not allowed to make original characters anymore, which is kinda sad.

[@jotabeas22]

I binged all the previous one. Sweet.

[@jjvagnar1]

4:00 Is that ghal Maraz from Warhammer? Awesome!!

[@ChickenPika]

I nearly died at the Bowsette lewds joke.

[@TheNefari]

4:59 Yahtzee what have you done

[@senuhy]

"it would be like going to an orgy and worrying about the state of the carpet" best line I've heard this month

[@hwaht8084]

Cmon now, the next one is gonna be board game themed.

[@rpiechart5252]

"Trouser Turnip" That is all

[@ghostlydash]

Just because Super Paper Mario didn’t have a turn-based battle system didn’t mean it was worse than the first 2 games. They way they made it without a turn-based battle system was perfect. If you watched Graced Gnome’s Dimentio VS Bill Cipher video, he goes goes in-depth on the lore of Super Paper Mario.

[@MusicoftheDamned]

To me only three things stand out about this game: Olivia is likely the worst "helper" Nintendo has ever made, the tone gets wildly dark at times and is all over the place due to that, and the soundtrack is far better than this game deserves.

[@magnus5747]

Meh the game is great in my opinion. I like Olivia, the writing is hilarious, the world is stunning, the battle system is not as bad as people say, finding toads and other collectibles stays satisfying and the music is fantastic. Definitely worth my money and would recommend it to everyone.

[@MusicoftheDamned]

@@magnus5747 And you are allowed your differing opinion. I am genuinely glad people are able to find enjoyment out of it even though I know I wouldn't, especially if the previous two games in the series were so crappy. Really, the only thing about the game that bothers me that's inexcusable is Miyamoto's mandate that they can't design new characters anymore for Mario. That's completely stupid and definitely didn't do the game any favors even for the people who enjoyed it.

[@danielshilvock2312]

Can't wait for the next Paper Mario game, the boss sounds great!

[@joeywomer]

I don't like the partners in this game where they miss 2/3 their attacks every fight you're in.

[@Denix67]

Titanic Trouser Turnip. Thank you Yahtzee.

[@eudgenius46]

So... Bejeweled is confirmed to be better than Paper Mario?

[@vice-virgo9635]

After the first 2? Without a doubt.

[@NetMoverSitan]

3:28 - If the dog isn't a fussy eater.

[@MistressAly]

Love the “Rigmarole” throwback 😂

[@militarykobold]

"owa-GAHMEEEEEE" Perfect stinger reference

[@joshuatheaveragejoe5786]

I wonder if like he said in his last Paper Mario video instead of the Seven Stars you have to collect you have to collect the 7 magical printer paper sheets

[@CelestiasSorrow]

Is it just me or does Yahtzee seem low energy for this one? Like he's not angry, just depressingly disappointed.

[@nobodyinparticular9640]

I mean, after 3 times shittendo disappoints you with 3 trash dumps games...

[@2Scribble]

Like he said - Paper Mario is his Sonic the Hedgehog Think of it like getting Sonic Generations - it's moderately tolerable - it's kind of fun - but you just KNOW you're going to get something like Sonic Forces (shudder) down the road because this one will probably do well...

[@vice-virgo9635]

Wouldn't you be? Imagine your favorite game gets a sequel/spin-off, hotly anticipated, paraded as the Second Coming, and you get a substandard, completely different game. That's the feeling Paper Mario's collective fanbase has had for over a decade and a half.

[@tonymack]

All the fans: give us more thousand year door paper mario Nintendo: lol no

[@MrOmegatronic]

Miyamoto: "This game's too much like _TTYD_ . CHANGE IT!" -Paraphrased, but he did actually say that about an early -_-Sticker Star-_- build, which is what led to the release version.-

[@user-jv9zj4lu1k]

"It's the combat that continues to over season my ring piece" needs to be bronzed in a museum of noteworthy quotes for all eternity

[@SILVERF0X13]

I mean we already had super princess peach, which was all about recovering the vibe wand. That seems close enough to me.

[@Tsukunea]

Did anybody else notice that the big puzzles in the temples and such turn baby mode if you fuck them up a couple times? That was honestly insulting to be misjumping on a path puzzle and have the non-path tiles just drop away

[@ribbon8546]

The music's also kind of incredible. Like yeah a boss fight against a pair of scissors is goofy shit but that music makes it *way* more hype than it ought to be.

[@JeannieLove]

TTYD I really liked, you got xp and steady progression. Origami King has me split. I like puzzles, but once you buy upgrades available, there's no way to get stronger like a normal RPG.

[@Selphos]

I watched this video just to see if Yahtzee lampshaded that he literally joked about finding the seven colored pieces of paper and fighting household objects after CS. Didn't disappoint. Wish he touched on the body horror element a bit more though, the holepunch boss was actually pretty distressing if you think about it.

[@StellaFangX]

The scissors boss was quite nasty as well, like some sort of gore but for paper.

[@paraplonk7269]

I think Arlo best summarizes how Nintendo treats Paper Mario: "Why have FUN when you can have something NEW?"