Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door (Switch) - 16 - Shadow of a Doubt

Given all those railings, I guess this must've been the N64 Rainbow Road.
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Outro music: Meatball

[@glitchy6449]

Grodus is an hp user so he didn't feel like signing in just for one picture

[@renakunisaki]

Ah, and the damn thing never works anyway.

[@ShycoWar]

One of Flurrie's early designs does seem to suggest she's meant to be a Puff. Kinda. Sorta. Still kinda weird how much effort went into making her look so very different from the base look of her species, compared to all the other partners...

[@ThatGuy-tc6uv]

"7.5/10 Too many forests" - IGN

[@theivoryguy2476]

Although the Boggly Woods battle theme may be a bit weaker than later ones, I appreciate it for being the song to truly make me realize that *every* chapter will have a unique battle theme. I had somehow convinced myself the Unsettling Area one was gonna be it.

[@enderallygolem]

Honestly I think boggly woods might be the strongest of the earlier ones

[@Theskeletoninsideyou]

kind of a shame to lose the shadow sirens name, the three shadows doesn't sound as good

[@justsomerandompixels]

5:06 oh i though we had like, a few chapters before we talked about this oh well, regardless, the BIGGER elephant in the room is that apparent flurries moveset half of it sorta mimics huff n puffs, so i guess thats cool and all so yeah i guess she IS related to the puffs in some way or another as for the light puffs, they probably wanted to spread their cloudiness elsewhere, and are doing a TERRIBLE job at it, literally no clouds in the sky at all. basicaly, flurrie ≠ dark puffs but dark puffs = cloudy weather (i guess?)

[@FreezerKing]

Nate's translation was perfectly serviceable for the time, yeah. Now that we've become a lot more accepting of having diverse characters in our media (well, most of us), the re-translation handles it about as well as it could be, and I think way, way, WAY more people were happy about it than not.

[@superpenguinzzz]

Vivian being trans in the remake was an excellent thing

[@FreezerKing]

@@superpenguinzzz Trans folk I know were absolutely over the moon when that line change started making the rounds.

[@JacksonVoet]

Yep, mentioned once, not harped on, but treated with dignity.

[@SuperPerry1000]

TBH, most people who are genuinely upset about it are either bigots who were never going to like it anyway, or ragebait channels using it to whip their impressionable fanbase up in a frenzy for attention. I feel most people run the gamut from excitement to "...Cool". And that's good.

[@jacketofdiamonds]

6:04 I mean, it makes sense for them to adapt to be about on the same level as the other creatures around. With food not being a challenge, other traits would predominate, like...idk, the ability to efficiently extract nutrients from Rainbow Road soil? 6:40 To be fair, I've seen people actively mourning the loss of that line. Once again, not sure why, but...yeah.

[@johnmendez9525]

We go through the woods and foreshadow our next partner

[@azimmeme9994]

0:05 And yet in Paper Mario 64 the world that seemed like a forest ended up being a gulch. I was disappointed

[@Trojan711]

11:14 And Opera was the Videogame. ...Wait, that's just Final Fantasy VI.

[@misk-ivus2990]

Whoa, the jingling you hear walking around the forest floor sounds really nice, you can hear it prominently at the base of the great tree.

[@johnnymind4151]

2:29 Seems like we have to add printer to the ever-growing list of technologies missing in this world despite having ones such as e-mails and TEC. 2:44 Both although in this case Beldam hasn't actually lost it, just forgot where she put it as we'll see. 5:00 All the lines about this which I've seen are closer to the Japanese script of the remake so I'll absolutely take it as a win compared to changes or lack of in this English localization like the Goomba catcalling scene (which while phrased differently in the remake in Japanese is still about that) and the "Chestnut King" respectively. 10:43 In the sense that they're both clouds and can blow wind yes, but that's it - I wouldn't say they're the same species as by that logic enemies from other Mario games like Fwoosh from 64 would be included, too.

[@Nintendotron64]

Also, Charlieton exists for the purpose of idiot-proofing. The boss fight in question is kinda sprung on you with minimal notice, and players who neglected to prepare for it might find themselves between a rock and a hard place, if they’re unable to return to Rogueport. So yeah. Just a lil precaution. Granted, this is probably why Franklie warns you to prepare long before the chapter actually begins.

[@woozin12345]

that actually makes a lot of sense

[@Skawo]

...which is what I said in the video?

[@DudeTheTCGMonarch]

I just learned last week actually that quake hammer can wake up the audience if Clock Out or a Dayzee puts them to sleep! Certainly could a used it in the Pre-hooktail pit Bonetail fight when they kept sleeping the crowd like every 4 turns💀

[@TT-rl7pu]

15:14 That actually happens quite a bit in this game. Dark Wizzerds are weaker than regular Wizzerds, Dull and Red Bones come before classic Dry Bones, and Red Chomps come before regular Chain Chomps.

[@splatana6660]

I've alwsys thought Flurrie is supposed to be some sort of Puff, but then Foos became a thing (cloud enemies that blow wind and have massive lips), and I headcanon that Flurrie's a Foo (or at least inspired the design)

[@KingRaatz]

7:17 Oh, Chapter 6's battle theme is something alright. NOT at all what I was expecting, but DAMN is it good.

[@noworldrecords8924]

10:06 Mario's managed to find a couple of secret entrances too. NSMBW 7-Castle and NSMBU 6-Castle come to mind.

[@maxhahm5333]

11:18 Yeah, it really cut out a lot of the backtracking!

[@firecraft7032]

Whats your opinion on the direct announcments Skawo?

[@Skawo]

The direct was pretty good, but talking about it in the video usually just really dates that video :v

[@awsmrs]

His opinions probably are something like "Oh great now I gotta scrap all my plans I had for the end of the year, too many new games that I need to play" lmao new mario & luigi, new zelda, how could he pass up the opportunity?

[@Skawo]

The ML for sure, I'll have to first see what kind of game the Zelda is.

[@firecraft7032]

@@Skawo ML announcement was honestly the highlight of me. Nothing is going to beat that for me personally.

[@paperluigi6132]

@@Skawotell me, did your jaw drop when you saw the artstyle on the Bros? Cause mine did.

[@wouterW24]

I had to think the partner upgrade choice over a bit, and went Goombella. She does seem to be optimal way to go, dealing 4 damage is very useful in the Great Tree, while basic koops usually deals enough damage to defeat many enemies weakened by Quake Hammer. In addition had a rough time with the Power Bounce nerf so dropped it in favor of equipping Quick Change early, which makes the combat here much less of an hassle.

[@isavenewspapers8890]

6:01 I guess something changed that both made them weaker and improved their camouflage abilities. Nature is full of trade-offs.

[@deathblowringo4168]

If you search Plug-ugly in the dictionary, it means a violent troublemaker or bully.

[@superpenguinzzz]

Boggly Woods is absolutely gorgeous

[@DrGreen-ob6eb]

wait if no fence exit means flurrie couldn't get out to reclaim the necklace then how did she lose it in the woods in the first place

[@Skawo]

She only built the fence recently, obviously.

[@kurtmatteson4914]

3:08 Well, we can't understand her, so it works pretty well, don't you think?

[@kiwi7006]

To be honest, I'm not sure I like any of the voice bits for the Shadow Sirens. But it's whatever, I think.

[@librus8680]

Boggly Woods - while not my favorite chapter, it absolutely nailed it in music and visuals. So happy to see that the remake has managed to really catch up in that regard here! The foil-like texture on the ground to give it an otherworldly rainbow-sheen, along with the more traditional instrumentals... really helps this place feel so serene and unique. Almost a shame the woods themselves are a couple of screens, but that seems to be the case for a lot of these chapters: the dungeon takes a hefty priority. The battle theme is quite nice! Compliments the first one from the castle very well, in that it demonstrates that "yep, there's a bunch of these, now!". I don't imagine it's worth testing, but I wonder if they all have a unique "only Mario survived" variant of the victory jingle, too. Can't imagine so, of course - only so many ways to make an orchestra sound "clumsy", really. ... And Vivian! I will agree that yeah, the original translation worked fine - but this "modernization", for the lack of a better term, really makes me happy. Taking what essentially started as a terrible joke, that got turned into a positive headcanon by the community, and making it *actually canon* (in an exhaustingly debatable sense, anyway) in the remake... I'm surprised, in a good way! I have a lot of close friends in that community, and seeing their collective reaction to the news was honestly heartwarming. I know the bar is... low, for Nintendo, when it comes to a lot of things, but... it's a nice sign, that things have changed since the original game's release. Changed for the better. ... And, I vaguely remember, as a weird easter egg in LM3, there being an explanation from E.Gadd about how and why a ghost would wear makeup. Flurrie's more of a sentient cloud than a ghost, even if she's a "spirit", but ol' Elvin mentions that apparently there are leading cosmetic brands for ghosts out there. So maybe Flurrie just buys from the same shops, considering that "ghost celebrities" apparently shop there...

[@splatana6660]

@librus8680 There's no longer a "partner down" victory theme. If you finish a battle with your partner dead, it just plays the normal victory theme.

[@fuseegelee]

I've been playing this on my own time, remembered your reaction to Flurrie on the original playthrough, and wondered if you would act the same way. The answer? Don't know, haven't watched yet. Will edit when finished watching. ' Edit: Oh

[@Chichi1612_]

14:16 thx for the shoutout

[@renakunisaki]

I don't think any of them can hula-hoop. They got no legs! No waist! It'd just fall!

[@isavenewspapers8890]

No legs, no problem. That doesn't mean they can't sway back and forth. Also, I'm pretty sure the force of the hula hoop pushing itself against you is what keeps it at the same height. You don't necessarily need a support for the hula hoop not to fall, as evidenced by a video I found of someone spinning a hula hoop around their thighs.

[@azimmeme9994]

8:30 Thank god I got to Chapter 5, even though i disagree with you anyways because that tree isn’t big enough to look similar

[@Hippolf]

I thought Charlieton was going to pop up in every chapter but no, for some reason they added him to Chapter 2 and nowhere else.

[@javierascanio4309]

P down d up now has a niché use thiugh. Stage hazards pierce, but this badge REDUCES damage instead of giving defense. Id say it's serviceable later in the game

[@Nintendotron64]

As far as I understand, Vivian being trans wasn’t intentional and NoA is just choosing to portray her that way. I’ve heard theories that misgendering someone is actually a big insult in Japanese culture and they were trying to imply Beldam was a dick who didn’t see Vivian as family instead of openly transphobic and this got lost in translation because of the odd way her dialogue was phrased. Just a guess though.

[@Meatball132]

In the original Japanese version, she was pretty explicitly described as a femboy by everyone except herself (who pretty clearly identified as a girl). This was kind of a common trope in Japanese media back then, but definitely wouldn't fly internationally. So NoA ignored all of this and just made everyone treat her like a girl, originally. For the remake, this is no longer widely acceptable even in Japan, so they updated the text to make her transgender instead, and the new English text is just a translation of that. So NoA didn't necessarily "choose" to do anything for the remake, they just changed the text in the same ways the Japanese text changed.

[@Nintendotron64]

@@Meatball132 exactly how clearly is “pretty clearly”. Like, clear enough to understand the nuance even in a literal translation, or clear once you understand the context?

[@Meatball132]

@@Nintendotron64 The entire point of contention between her and Beldam was that she said she was one of the Shadow _Sisters_.

[@IvanezRus]

I *LOVE* battle theme for Boggly Woods, it's so whimsical, so dreamy It alone made me wonder more of how distinct a locale Boggly Woods is, being a forest of rainbows underneath the leafy floor ornament that has no common animals, but, in their stead, elementals and giant insects, and most of them are monochrome like the the forest, to convey how they adapted to the place. Makes me think of how great it would feel in a modern iteration, with today's design choices and more characters that would tell the story of it. As it is, yeah, another linear location, shame, really, but at least the big tree makes up for it 😊

[@starberrysparkler]

I was personally fine with the localization and now, 20 years later, I'm fine with this one's. Nice for people to get (acknowledged) representation...and the memes are pretty entertaining. I'm personally tilting my head more at something that was changed way back then and is now restored. It's not a big deal, it's just...weird that the English release changed it at all. Ooh. Chapter 2's battle variation is one of my favorites. The flutes are *so* pretty and a great fit for the area. P-Down, D-Up. A Badge that I'm consistently baffled by. Why would you want that on your Partners, much less Mario?

[@jmtheelitefan9616]

I'm split on the Boggly Woods design: I imagined the colors to "pop" a lot more in a remake/remaster, but I also understand going for a more muted color palette. Either way still by far the most gorgeous area in the game. Slight edit: the music is a vast improvement, and that's including my opinion that the OG was an absolute banger to begin with.

[@qwerty3793]

5:54 *scans audience* Yep, definitely no Piranha Plants here. All I see are a bunch of Toads and Shy Guys. Real shame that Piranha Plants are almost extinct, smh.

[@supercoolsonic]

I mean, I'm usually all for remakes or remasters of games restoring more original text from the original Japanese version of the game, as localization nowadays is usually a lot less liberal with how they translate games from their original language. However... and I mean this as literally as possible... I don't enjoy what I see as "meddling" in this remake's script. It's one thing to fix plot holes, inconsistencies, and add some additional flavor text, but outright changing something to be something that it wasn't 20 years ago... that doesn't sit well with me at all. I'd really just prefer that they had left Vivian alone, because that's the Vivian I came to know 20 years ago, and didn't find out about the localization gender snafu until years later. I know that's how she always was in the Japanese version, but I didn't play the Japanese version as a kid. I played the English version. That's my memory with the game, and it's not going to change. They also shoved a bar of soap into the game's mouth, and now you apparently cannot call anyone or anything "crazy", "nuts", a "nutjob", a "psychopath", a "moron", "chubby", or an "airhead". Or talk about Koops's social issues. Do text changes like this make the game a deal-breaker? Heck no. I'm happy as hell that this exists, but seeing as this game is among my top 5 favorite games, little changes like this get under my skin and I get irritated over dumb things that didn't need to be changed. In fact, one of their "cleaned up" edits to the original script in Peach's first talk with TEC actually accidentally made a typo in this remake! Where one didn't even exist originally! UGH. I bought the game on Switch to support Nintendo and this direction for the series, but I think I'm gonna stick with playing on PC with mods to fix these text changes. ...Sorry for long rant. Enjoy the game!

[@denpadolt9242]

I think I can voice why I'm personally glad to see Beldam be transphobic... Who's gonna say "Yes, the nasty old hag who abuses her own family to perpetuate her control over them? Yeah, I'm gonna agree and sympathize with _that_ one, not the arguably single best-written partner in the entire series."

[@Skawo]

From what I've seen, she isn't, though? The conflict is not focused on this.

[@ShycoWar]

The things is, it seems to me that Remake!Beldam ends up coming across as _less_ transphobic than she could've been, had they simply retained her GC English behavior while adding the change to Vivian's character. Because aside from a single specific line from Vivian later on that implies the contrary, this "new" Beldam doesn't really seem to be giving two hoots about any of that when she's doing her thing on-screen, and just bullies Vivian for being Vivian, rather than one gender or the other...unlike in the original, where I'm pretty sure she was all "What 'Sirens'? You're a BOY, you stupid oaf!" and explicitly used that as an excuse to be extra hard on Vivian.

[@Skawo]

Indeed.

[@Eellex501]

5:02 after Sticker Star it's really hard to take anything the Paper Mario community says serious anymore.

[@Brown95P]

I honestly think they should've just kept Nate's general translation, with maybe some changes to the insults used; the whole femboy/trans stuff was -- and quite frankly still is -- a minefield that was best avoided by making Vivian a girl from the start.

[@azimmeme9994]

5:31 I think that Vivian being trans would make more sense if Beldam was transphobic because then it would add to the story of Beldam being really rude to her. We should let rude characters be rude

[@crazyrabbit23]

5:25 the “being excited about bedlam being tranphobic” thing was basically just an in-joke amongst trans fans of the game. Basically before the remake came out a screenshot of bedlam’s “RELATION WITHHELD” line was basically how we found out that Vivian’s story of being trans isn’t censored anymore (even if it wasnt handled great in the original jp script as you point out), and of course got people excited. So its basically just “hey isnt it kinda funny that were cheering over a transphobic line”

[@Skawo]

But the "relation withheld" line is not even about that

[@skyhawk9710]

The thing with the original Japanese version is that Vivian refers to herself as female, when other characters and sources refer to her as male, for a few reasons. Beldam is always meant to be just an abusive bigot and a bully to Vivian, while others such as the original JP Tattle dialogue may come from less understanding of trans 20 years ago. The remake now adjusts some things to a more accurate translation and adding onto it making it more clear with having a better understanding of it all now.

[@S4BT00NZ]

beldam *is* transphobic in a way on both versions of the game, not just the remake. people are just pointing it out more now due to vivian being quite explicitly trans in the remake western version. like, it's a lot more explicit in the og spanish version. but still, in the remake it's implied in one line beldam says, and the whole exclusion of the word "sirens" due to being female-aligned. if you're wondering why people are so happy abt beldam being like this, well, i think it's because of how it geniunely represents the struggles of trans people irl, and how it's treated with due respect. and coming from a genderqueer person- my identity is often ignored and im just constantly treated as a cis girl around most people irl despite openly stating i am not, and that i also use male and non-binary pronouns and i do not like being directly called a girl. so it's great to see that mine - and others' struggles are being shown and represented properly, so others will be able to understand how it feels. but yea im glad they uh did the localization thingy ps my mom is stuck trying to use yoshi and his flutter jump to jump to that one plataform with the pipe that leads to twilight down she STILL hasn't managed to get there as im typing this please help

[@Skawo]

If you're referring to the "relation withheld" line... that's not talking about Vivian's identity at all. As far as Chapter 2 goes, I genuinely don't remember noticing anything that would imply Beldam does what she does because of that.

[@S4BT00NZ]

​@@Skawoyeah, and imo i believe it is related, since that's after vivian says that it makes her really happy when beldam calls her her sister, but to be fair that could just be beldam trying to exclude vivian in terms of like, family, and not gender if that makes sense

[@Skawo]

@@S4BT00NZ She says something like "adding sisters makes it sound less mysterious!" - and then says the "relation withheld" line. That's what she's referring to.

[@S4BT00NZ]

beldam might be who she is because shes just horrible ince the day of birth. but tbf nintendo really didnt make it clear why beldam shits on vivian so much in the remake. is it because vivian loses things or something? or is it truly transphobia? because in the og it was because vivian was ugly apparently but now that's not even mentioned once so there's literally no clear motive

[@S4BT00NZ]

in my headcanon i think that originally beldam did shit on vivian because she was trans but later she started finding other things in vivian to nitpick on, which for me would explain more the "now their usual bullying just feels heavier" line. but again, headcanons yk