The Scrapped Stories, Characters, and Concepts of Sonic

[@Pariah6950]

2 corrections. Only 1 version of Mecha Godzilla is referred to as Kiryuu, which came after SA1. So I guess Mecha Sonic is the appropriate name. Also the artist responsible for the concept art of Rivals has stated that the humans in it were not meant for Rivals. So my theory is wrong.

[@Dr_Damon_1111]

Actually I think you're wrong about Mecha Sonic being its actual name in a most likely not canon game Sonic fighters have a version of Mecha Sonic called rocket metal it has 2 names rocket metal and Mecha Sonic 29 so maybe instead of being metal Sonic the robot he's metal Sonic the Mecha Sonic it seems possible anyway

[@SaddieMoon]

Mary: “And then Shadow said, “Where’s that damn fourth Chaos Emerald”” Children: “Ooooh, you said a bad word!!!”

[@TheDiego908]

Child: "But Miss Mary, why isn't Knuckles guarding th-" Mary: "Shut up, don't think about it"

[@macaemeia146]

Mary: explaining the lore of the universe The children noticing all the changes she made along the way: visible confusion

[@A-really-cool-Youtube-name]

"And then we see Dr. Gerald Tied up having lost his grip on Sanity, telling the men that his greatest Creation will come back to kill them all-" The poor kids: MOMMY!!!

[@TheRabbitPoet]

Mary: "And those were all 326 ways this story could have gone. Now let's talk about how the story really ends"

[@SaddieMoon]

@@TheRabbitPoet Old people: “That took too long, and it was repetitive”

[@mavrickindigo]

They actually show Blaze's palace in IDW, and Ian says that SEGA provided IDW with actual concept art for her kingdom for the comic's use

[@Pariah6950]

Really? That's interesting. I hope we get to see more of Blaze's world in future games one day.

[@TheDayd111returns]

I feel like Sonic Rush was meant to be Sonic 2006. Here me out on this one... Imagine, if Blaze replaced Elise as one of the main characters. The Kingdom of Soleanna should have been Blaze's kingdom. Imagine, Blaze as the princess of Soleanna instead? Blaze calls her powers a "curse" because her powers are linked to the godly being known as Iblis. Blaze's father was studying the powers of the Sol Emeralds and learning about Solaris. Blaze's father was killed in an accident, in order to save his daughter's life, he has to seal Iblis inside of her. I think that would make a better story.

[@sonicwhite91]

It wasn’t concept art Flynn described it as descriptions of what it looks like

[@yytyyy5329]

What I want to know is how a 14 year old is ruling. Where are her parents?

[@crimsonzone8984]

@@yytyyy5329 most of the sonic cast don't show or even mention their parents. except cream.

[@julymay323]

Maekawa's idea for Shadow the Hedgehog 2 would have been Shadow putting himself back in his pod and being awakened by a girl who looked like Maria centuries later. This inspired the Metarex Arc. Also Silver was named that way because he was supposed to get his own game.

[@Pariah6950]

Oh yeah. I totally forgot about Maekawa saying that. I actually quite like the idea of Shadow going back into stasis and waking up in the far future. Have him and Silver go on adventures together. That would be cool. Never heard of those ideas inspiring Metarex, though. You got a source on that?

[@julymay323]

@@Pariah6950 It's just what the community believes. People just assume that because of the similarities. I have no idea if that is true. Metarex is just a loose adaptation of Heroes. Also Part 2 when.

[@rynobehnke8289]

Every time I hear that Maekawa plan can I only think that he played way too much Megaman/Rockman Zero when having that Interview.

[@julymay323]

@@rynobehnke8289 I mean it's a cool plot.

[@rynobehnke8289]

@@julymay323 Maybe but it's also one that fallowing Shadow saying goodbye to his past in his solo game seems to not really fit Shadow as a character anymore.

[@henriquezioto8760]

That's insane, what are you? a Sonic professional, fully graduated at the school of Sonic the Hedgehog. Truly a Sonic connoisseur.

[@mrmaxguy65]

Cybershell: "Finally, a worthy opponent!"

[@thatashgirly]

@@mrmaxguy65 our battle will never end

[@sunvinn]

I want to see Pariah and Cybershell on a Sonic Brain Ranking battle

[@BraviaGames]

Who will get the job of loremaster?

[@ethandouro4334]

Sonic University PhD.

[@MaddieOsness]

Hey! im the concept artist that drew those images for Sonic Rivals @52:27. The human characters were never a part of the concepts for Sonic Rivals and were entirely un-related concepts for a graphic novel I was thinking about at the time. There was no real cut content about another human character in this title that I can recall, sorry for making it boring. This is just a case of there still being being blank paper around the Rivals concepts and owning a pen.

[@thaddeuswilliammcchucklebe47]

You're a really great artist.

[@Pariah6950]

Thanks for sharing. I was actually thinking of contacting you to ask about that. I figured my guess was a stretch.

[@vaultonic]

@Matt Osness Did the graphic novel ever get finished or close to being finished? I'd love to hear what the graphic novel would've been like.

[@MaddieOsness]

@@vaultonic I never got around to it, but it was a scifi western where the main protagonist was set on a journey to destroy centuries old demigods made of sentient nano particles. She becomes infected with the particles and develops god-like powers as well.

[@alejjtheninja5803]

Cool of you to let us know!

[@tonycorona8501]

The fun fact is that the Hooligans are a coincidence. Flynn came out with the Team before Maekawa revealed the trío were planned to be a Team.

[@Ismazing]

Holy crap the original origin story is insane but also kinda cool? It is so sad it was lost to history, this is the first time I'm hearing this.

[@Tom-rd8dd]

I heard about it from a different video just about a week ago

[@GamingintheAM0801]

Funny enough, Sega was still officially acknowledging that backstory as late as 2001. The Japanese Special Edition of SA2 included the story in a booklet.

[@zenvariety9383]

@@GamingintheAM0801 well the origin story could be used to explain why the last decade was weird for the franchise. Yet I still got to more of Sonic Frontiers.

[@BraviaGames]

The final story for Sonic Xtreme seems eerily similar to the story for Sonic Colors. Replace the Death Egg with the Interstellar Amusement Park, the planets being chained instead of orbiting, Tails not playable because he's operating a translator instead of a eleporter, and lastly the Whisps instead of the Mips. A lot of coincidences here🤔...

[@hyperon_ion9423]

I was reminded of Sonic the Fighters, as the Death Egg MK II that served as the end goal of the game had that weird design of having a bunch of multi-colored spheres attached to the Death Egg’s main body, almost like planets orbiting an even bigger one.

[@santiagoarrieta2175]

most of the times when these thing are discarted the results are reused for other games. I think they use the mechanics ideas for Sonic lost world. And Extreme have much to scrap, the game was cancelled only for technicall limitations, because the rest it pretty extense and solid. A lot of design and developed ideas.

[@TacoManX9]

The fact that we seriously could've had a character named "Tiara BOOBowski" in a Sonic game is still the funniest goddamn thing I've ever heard!

[@LannyLeArtist]

Lol

[@jurassicarkjordanisgreat1778]

She is just sally acorn but with bigger BOOBowski's

[@bakedbeans5494]

@@LannyLeArtist Timestamp?

[@LannyLeArtist]

@@bakedbeans5494 WHY DO I SEE YOU EVERYWHERE

[@bakedbeans5494]

@@LannyLeArtist No idea.

[@Ninjacat25]

Wait a second... Perhaps the idea of Sonic protecting those who are associated with his likeness actually inspired the idea of Sonic helping other central characters to grow and become stronger in certain senses. Perhaps being around Sonic can be a character's "jacket of defense".

[@lauraikoko]

that's such a cool idea

[@Ninjacat25]

@@lauraikoko Thank you very much, dude.

[@ChaddyFantome]

My mans busted out the Mary Garnet story. These people aren't ready! Another interesting thing about those is how the Storybook games play into the concept when you get right down to it, right down to the Arabian Nights being rewritten into "Sonic and the Secret Rings" It's fun to think that games like Sonic Adventure 2 was Mary Garnet's stories getting a blockbuster movie release! Based on research I've done, nothing straight up confirms any of that stuff being discontinued until around 2010. That isn't to say it for certain WAS in place up to that point, (this is Sonic we are talking about), but it's funny to think the potential is there. I also agree that if yoy had to give Sonic an origin, that stuff is more in the spirit of the character imo. Another thing is according to Oshima, Amy was actually made around Sonic 1 as a replacement for Madonna, and Amy herself adopted her character traits. Did you know Knuckles was originally going to be a dinosaur? That is why he has his crooked tail. Its a remnant from his dinosaur design. He was also a straight up mole at one point, which is why he has many bios that refer to him as a mole, or mole-like. It's also why he doesn't like bright lights! I imagine there basically was no thought put into "Team Adventure". Another is the history around Sonic Riders as a skateboarding game! This kind of thinking through and reverse engineering is what i live for and this series has been a huge supply of it for me. I personally have a theory that Mecha Sonic was prkbably the final boss in Heroes before Metal. NeoMetal's design takes a lot of cues from Mecha Mrk II if you ask me.

[@galten7361]

Amy also took some nods from Sonic's sister Tania in that early manga that introduced Amy to begin with. Namely the "follows Sonic around being a nuisance."

[@LordEnder97]

There's also the fact that Madonna Garnet's surname is that of a gemstone coupled with her status as a G.U.N. agent also makes her similar to Topaz from Sonic X.

[@tonycorona8501]

Here is a theory I have on Tiara. She was reworked into Sonic Boom as a character named Perci. Tiara creator worked in both Xtreme and Rise of Lyric...however, Sega sent the Game to be rewritten st the last minute twice, and Perci original role was dropped. The two do resemble one another. Edit: To add more information, Perci in-game is stated to be a guardian of the island, who her ancestors have defended since the time of the ancients. There's even scrapped voice lines about hr possibly being playable. And it makes sense, considering how Sonic-ky her design is compared with the other NPC.

[@mikesantos8554]

Good theory!!

[@twours]

tiara bandicoot

[@mBluett]

51:40 IDW expanded on Blaze's world's middle-eastern ties by designing a Mughal-inspired palace for her. Ian Flynn said it was based on descriptions Sega had on record that were never used, and now Sega even considers that design official, and has used it in other media.

[@spartaninthebox9101]

As someone who has been autistically honed in on any scrap of Sonic info I could get my hands on, for around 27ish years, give or take. The fact that you can still present something as nuts as Sonic's original conceptual backstory, is wild to me. Man, I just like listening to you talk about Sonic. You just get what I like about the little fuzzball, and have a great way of expressing that. I don't care what the topic is, you always find a way to make it engaging. Side note, as I'm making my way through Frontiers, and am fairly surprised by the story, I can't wait for you to go over it in the granular way you do, when you get to that point.

[@orchideqvinox765]

I've only been in the Sonic fandom about 10 years now myself but I relate sooooo hard 😂 I think that's why Pariah and Cybershell are two of my favorite channels, because they delve into the little nitty-gritty things that a lot of people likely wouldn't really care about, but which aspiring Sonic nerds such as myself will absolutely eat up. If it's scrapped, hidden, leaked, or generally obscure, you bet I wanna hear EVERY MINUTE DETAIL about it we can dig up. 🤩

[@trappercap]

That original concept for Sonic is an entire screenplay’s worth of material. I’m completely surprised I haven’t heard anything about it for now. I think that story is also meant to allude to SEGA’s American origins before they established themselves properly in Japan. Whoever came up with it, I think, must have also watched a lot of Top Gun. And yeah, there’s the guardian kami/angel comparison to be made there too. EDIT: I only just realized that it was very loosely interpreted into the plot of 06

[@GamingintheAM0801]

What's interesting is that Sega was still officially acknowledging the Mary Garnet story as late as 2001. The Japanese Special Edition of SA2 included it in a booklet.

[@jaccblacc8424]

Speaking of the origin story, Sega of Japan also used the slogan "Born in 1947 but made for the 90's" which would later be used for Japanese Sonic clothing line in the 90's

[@owlgohoot9919]

That Sonic origin story is amazing, it adds so much nuance and depth to Sonic's character, and you can see in this scrapped story the different facets of what would eventually inform Sonic's character as we know him today - the "gotta go fast" attitude of the pilot, the whimsical nature of the artist and her stories, and the blue blur protecting the reporter, it's such good stuff! Even the whole idea of the reporter taking comfort in the nostalgia of Sonic's image arguably mirrors that of gamers who grew up playing Sonic games. Despite being quite a Sonic fan, you're right in saying that I've never heard this origin story before, but I'm glad I did!

[@kingofcrap4414]

I like that the Mary origin story makes a strong emphasis on Sonic's heroism. Literally the first thing he does upon coming to life is saving an innocent person. Despite Sonic's cocky and brash nature, above everything else he is a hero.

[@andarilho_31]

Well I'm glad this origin story isn't canon anymore. Honestly I just hate when stories about fantasy worlds end up being just "a dream" or "the product of imagination". You invest a lot of time in these stories just to find out it was never "real". I'm glad Sonic games take place in their universe, not in a random woman's head.

[@gabrielguzman398]

@@andarilho_31I agree ,the story sounds very silly even for sonic standards and it sounds very similar to that one official sonic comic called sonic live

[@lauraikoko]

@@andarilho_31i actually think that the stories of the sonic games being stories told to children fits very well with sonic's character,cause sonic is aware that he is not a real person,he knows that he is a fictional/video game character and he likes that because he can share his adventures with others,and if his stories are already being shared with children then he is sharing his adventures with people,fits with his character really well

[@369destroyer]

Gonna point out that the Amy, Rouge, Cream team, due to how the game works with the formations, Cream wasn't originally going to be a flier. Rouge is the obvious pick for Fly formation after all. And between Amy and Cream, I think Amy would fit power more than Cream. So Cream was likely a Speed focused character. This would also make the "Love Interest" Team all be different types from their male counterpart interestingly enough. Then bringing Shadow back, Rouge is the obvious choice to bring onto his team, so Team Rose needed a new flier. So with Gamma being turned into Omega, suddenly Big was an option for Team Rose. So Amy was moved to Speed, and Cream flies now.

[@JosephLawson420]

I think it makes more sense that rouge would have been power since she's supposed to be opposed to knuckles.

[@sugamamaproud9810]

@@JosephLawson420 I say samething rouge make more sense be power, while cream make more sense be fly.

[@zenvariety9383]

@@sugamamaproud9810 except Rouge is a bat though and she only uses flirtation to annoy Knuckles. Yet when you think about it they almost established Shade as Knuckles' love interest going forward until Penders threw a fit. However, I would love to see a game introduce another group of Echidnas though.

[@bubbykins4864]

Actually, Rouge, as a rival of Knuckles, is a good pick for Power as well, and since Team Sonic is listed in Speed, Fly, Power, it's safe to assume that they originally wanted to lean in on that Power typing.

[@galten7361]

No Rouge was the Power character. Her actual appearance in Adventure 2 presented her as Knuckles' counterpart and her design draws attention to her legs.

[@chernagast6754]

The manga uses the Sonic origin for his family, which is mindblowing. Sonic is a superhero name for Nicky the hedgehog, whose father is pilot who was involved in a plane crash, and his jacket had the Sonic game emblem (the ring with wings) on his plane.

[@KidAL0]

Yeah I frankly adore that origin story. It’s so fucking weird and detailed but that’s what gives it charm. And up to the fantasy element of Sonic leaping off the jacket, the entire thing is believable and honestly very sweet imo

[@GamingintheAM0801]

Yeah, as a kid, I legitimately thought the Mary Garnet story was real, and the only part they made up was the stuff with the girl buying the jacket. Like, it sounded perfectly believable that a children's author would come up with the character for her husband.

[@KidAL0]

@@GamingintheAM0801 yup and it’s so positive and feel-good just like Sonic himself

[@grimpaper]

well, as long as we're on the subject of unused content, there's an extremely early demo version of Sonic Adventure's main theme, "Open Your Heart" that was leaked a few years ago. The standout thing about this being that the lyrics were completely different, being devoid of the motivational tone of the final song, and instead focusing strictly on the disaster that the Knuckles clan caused in the past. Hell, the words "Open your heart" aren't even in this version, instead being something to the effect of "Don't suffer chaos". Not only that, but the vocals here are sung in engrish by a presumably Japanese vocalist. The vocals also have a ton of filters placed over them, giving the whole song a somewhat unnerving feel. Interestingly, it seems that this was a serious contender for being the final track, as a remix based on it was released back in 1998. The last thing to note related to this is that there was a near identical version of this demo that was used during Sonic Adventure's Japanese unveiling, albeit with the final lyrics.

[@zaneyates5704]

Do you perhaps know where one can listen to it? I tried looking it up, but got nothing.

[@grimpaper]

@@zaneyates5704 kzbin.info/www/bejne/laeommZ6bdV3g68

[@zaneyates5704]

@@grimpaper thx!

[@grimpaper]

@@zaneyates5704 no problem! oh btw for the other demo, I have a recreation of the full version up on my channel, along with a ton of other SA1 beta recreation stuff.

[@zaneyates5704]

@@grimpaper oh neat! I’ll check it out. There is quite a lot I evidently didn’t know about the early development of SA1

[@weredrago2]

"Madonna Garnet" is believed to have also been a play on Agent Topaz from Sonic X. She worked for GUN but they would not have been able to use characters that appeared in Sonic X (like the Metarex or Emerl) for legal reasons.

[@Treesarewoke]

Wait what? Emerl is a game character though, why wouldnt they be able to use him?

[@greenD7244]

@@Treesarewoke Pretty sure it had something to do with the Sonic X comics that were running at the same time, they weren’t even allowed to use Cream until after the X comic ended.

[@JohnWilliams-wl9px]

@@Treesarewokeall evidence points to Sega just being weirdly specific on how they view certain characters. Like how they say Nack, Mighty, and Ray are classic era only characters.

[@Tybis]

Holy shit, I remember seeing the fiery Mary Garnet image without context years ago but could never find it again. Seeing it again as part of this insane backstory almost knocked me out of my chair. I also have no idea how SegaSonic Bros works even after watching gameplay of it for 20 minutes.

[@Root4BeerFloats]

It seems to be like tetris, but with *very* forgiving circles instead of lines

[@Alienrun]

It took me a couple of minutes of watching, but you clear balls by chaining similar color ones to the walls or floors...and after doing this enough you get a chaos emerald that drops and clears everything above it...that's basically it.

[@brandonperez8977]

Tiara was also involved in a few other cancel Sonic game before Sonic X-Treme. Sega was changing Tiara's character and in one of the cancel game Sally was going to be involved with her as love rival. Tiara was also a princess in some projects and her last name was different.

[@lasercraft32]

Somehow, Sonic appearing in the physical reality just to save someone's life is very in-character for him.

[@welchrebooted4739]

45:55 - 46:38 that was exactly the idea I had in mind for a Terios backstory, I even had the idea that his characterization is more like boom/mandate shadow but here it makes sense with terios' motive being to surpass shadow to prove that he is more than a failed prototype.

[@aortaplatinum]

One thing you got wrong is that Christmas island is a real world island on Earth, it's near Australia, so that further links Sonic to always having taken place on an alternate Earth One other thing regarding Miyazaki inspiration is the surprising story similarities between Princess Mononoke and Sonic Frontiers. Both involve- -a teenager/young man seeking out a mysterious girl who seems to want nothing to do with him -kodama style tree spirits -an infected arm that threatens to kill the protagonist but gives him great power -the theme of power corrupting -a giant spirit tied to the forest and probably a ton more past the first island I hope you're shitting your pants along with me playing through Frontiers and seeing all this new lore and recontextualized story stuff

[@charmyzard]

Proto-Shadow "Terios" as "the Failed Life-Form" could actually satisfy SEGA's craving for having an edgy rival to Sonic. Terios, going with that story, would have a *lot* to compensate for and a real drive to want to 1-up Sonic at everything. Pariah's just a genius.

[@rayvenkman2087]

I’d like to see a storyline where he is Shadow’s Lore from Star Trek TNG. Gerald had to have a number of prototypes made before coming up with Shadow and I imagine Terios being far stronger than Shadow but he’s unstable and flawed in many ways including being actually psychotic plus a serious danger to everyone around due to his less-regulated access to Chaos Energy which would make him a walking nuke. Just to go even further, I’d make him a meta commentary on how Shadow has been viewed as through years of flandersation after 2006.

[@MasterDisaster64]

About Metal Sonic in Heroes: One theory I had was that Neo Metal would still be the main villain, but as a new unit, separate from the original Metal. The original would go after Neo Metal to take him down and prove his superiority. And he somehow convinces Mighty and Ray to join him.

[@taputrainer8463]

19:39 makes me wonder if Madonna was supposed to be like a self insert for Mary since it would be like her with her husband but in another life

[@ghostspider2056]

Archie comics has a scrapped character named Null right when it was cancelled. It looked kind of similar to Mephiles.

[@joewilliams-un8vu]

To me, I’ve always loved the scrapped levels just because classic Sonic’s world could pretty much be anything and so I love all of the things we could’ve got.

[@Garrulous64]

That origin story is wild, I've never heard that one before.

[@johnsmit3928]

Pariah, I’m not sure if you’ll get around to it soon, but be warned that the JP script for Frontiers is very different than the English. Hopefully they’ll have a mod by the time a video gets made, but as it is, it’s too different. It’s weird though. Would you consider the Jp to take priority in this instance as Ian Flynn wrote the script first? Sonic Team came up with the concept and ended up writing almost an entirely separate script, so maybe it is more like how previous games were handled than people have been led to believe.

[@Pariah6950]

Oh, I've noticed. It's so jarring reading the subtitles and listening to what characters say and they are entirely different for almost every line. Working on a first impressions video where I mention this.

[@TheDerpius]

I'm surprised you didn't at least mention the canceled Sister Sonic. Going off entirely on memory here, back when Popful Mail was being localized to the west, they were intending to use the Sonic brand to help market the game by turning it into an adventure starring Sonic's sister, who was and probably forever will be unnamed. However, fans weren't too keen on the idea and wanted Popful Mail to be localized as it's original version, causing them to go back in their decision and now we simply have Popful Mail rather than Sister Sonic. While I was a fan of playing Popful Mail, I like to imagine what it would have been like if they had went through with Sister Sonic and giving us a potential major character to the Sonic series in the form of Sonic's bounty hunter sister, assuming they would've remained a bounty hunter like Mail was in the normal Popful Mail. It could've been a nice thing and possibly could have led to a bit more of a reveal on Sonic's Origin in regards to his own universe (not considering the double fiction layer stuff) or possibly furthering the mysticism by having both of them avoid the topic of their pasts.

[@doodoopop8385]

Sonic Underground?

[@ghhn4505]

I am so glad they scrapped that Sonic origin story, holy crap. Sonic kinda works better without an origin as a mysterious force of nature, plus it's so needlessly complicated when the games usually boil down to "gotta stop that ol' eggman again"

[@saliw3354]

I have to say that MechaGodzilla is still referred to as MechaGodzilla in Japan. Kiryou(機龍, I dunno the exact English spelling bth.) is appeared as the official name of MechaGodzilla in 2000's MechaGodzilla duology. But except that, every other MechaGodzilla in the series, has only the name MechaGodzilla (MechaGojira)

[@Pariah6950]

Oh. That so? I'm not too into Godzilla. I've only heard him referred to as Kiryu in Japanese.

[@inendlesspain4724]

I think you mean romanization (as in, using the roman alphabet), and the correct romanization here is either kiryuu or kiryū since the ryuu/ryū part means dragon in japanese.

[@Matrix5TheTrapsComeAlive]

@@Pariah6950 It's true, the Kiryu name only applies to a specific version of the character. All other iterations are still called MechaGodzilla in Japanese and even the one named Kiryu is still referred to as "a MechaGodzilla" at times within its movies. I suspect this misconception sprang from an old Matt McMuscles video about Godzilla where he mistakenly makes the same claim, as I've noticed it popping up with the casual audience a lot since then.

[@AltKaxREAL]

28:55 the story in a nutshell: Tiara: i'm home Sonic: can't right now, too busy eating chilidogs. Tiara: my parents aren't home

[@tonycorona8501]

We took a detour from appreciating the underrated Babylon Rogues to talk about Tiara Boobieski.

[@stg4theglitchog768]

Mary probably told the story of Shadow the hedgehog to the kids when they got older.

[@BraviaGames]

I think Rouge's outfit was black and red to match Shadow and Omega's colors. Ngl, I wish they did that instead for the sake of cohesion.

[@algotkristoffersson15]

For the scrapped backstoy thing, the way sonic got into the real world is obviously the result of the time rifts created in generations

[@killswitchlee123]

There’s actually official rare early 90s SEGASONIC Japanese clothing merch that has a saying “born in 1947 but made for the 90s” on it’s label.

[@NineTwentyThreeTwentyThree]

I just realized, the act structure probably came from Sonic's origin story, how there are seperate acts when telling a story. Maybe Meg was telling her stories through acts!

[@TheSpeedway99]

We now know that Sonic Adventure had two cut characters in Spider Girl and Fly the Vampire bat.

[@michaelkindt3288]

@13:47-.-She got a bit insecure her kids were starting to get older and started to get a little bored of her story (Rouge's bust was a head cannon by one of her children when they were just starting puberty, which is why it goes down significantly in later games), so she spiced it up a bit. But her children kept complaining about how trial hard it was and poking in plot holes, and so she went through dozens of revision Until she gave up and told the last story of Shadow The Hedgehog, and then she politely asked her kids to never speak of these tales again.

[@theartfulmage]

I think that some design elements from Tiara's concept were eventually passed onto Amy in her more modern design. If you look at their outfits, they bare very similar traits and color scheme.

[@ryananthony2869]

Imagine if the pilot origin story was the plot of the live action Sonic movie,what a world we would be living in.

[@lasercraft32]

Its actually really interesting how Team Rose was originally going to be Amy, Cream, and Rougue, to be counterparts to Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles. Its cool that they actually took that idea and used it in Sonic Dream Team.

[@DoritoGOD2811]

Goddamn, I thought I couldn't be surprised by anything but you were right, I had never fucking heard of that original Sonic backstory.

[@Laekith]

Ok, am I alone in thinking the whole pilot story is actually amazing? It also ties in with Sonic's thing of being "free as the wind" like he says

[@HydraBread]

Sonic Xtreme looks so nauseating to play, I’m not at all upset that it got axed.

[@overlandlord5965]

Big, Gamma, and Chaos working together is actually quite simple to explain. Big is the caretaker of froggy. Chaos is the protector of the chao. Gamma is an animal trapped inside a robot. They would be motivated to work together, since all of them, in their own way, strive for the protection of life.

[@waypastcoolkid]

Kiryu is the name they use only in the Millenium era duology. They still called him Mecha Gojira until then. The Machine Sonic design is much more in line with the Showa-Era Mecha-Gman design sensibilities.

[@Doctor_Odin]

The Chuck Yeager thing could be referenced with the character of uncle Chuck or at least a remnants of that origin. Sidenote: it would’ve been extremely funny if they went with the Eggman being a dirty Quill blocker story for sonic extreme.

[@walkernonya5887]

You know, I kinda like the idea that Sonic and friends were story characters that jumped into the “real world.” If they would’ve kept that, it could’ve had some cool stories during the earlier 3D games.

[@Mamin9k]

13:48 her mood probably went off the rails years after her husband passed away

[@mayborneflower]

… okay, so is anyone else here picturing Sonic in SMT (again) but this time it’s Meg as his devil summoner? Except it’s Sonic on the front lines as her personal Demi-Fiend while Meg herself carries around a comical amount of Mary’s Sonic children’s books (real and fictional) and scrapped concepts for backup summons. Oh and Madonna’s joined to Sonic and Meg at the hip in the Demonica suit, after a chance encounter on assignment from G.U.N. goes way south.

[@Bipolaroid90]

Sonic's original origin story was so heartwarming.

[@espinoth9913]

Chaos, Big, and Gamma working together makes perfect sense actually. Concepts show Chaos being a Chao of some manner of protector role who was mutated by chaos energy and became the water god. Big is an affectionate fatherly type who's too dumb to properly do stuff on his own, as proven by how affectionate and protective his is towards Froggy. Gamma cares about all life due to what he learned after gaining sentience, and the Flicky inside of him. All three of them care for and have a desire to protect animals and individuals who cannot protect themselves, which is actually a very strong common ground.

[@NotTheNexus1991]

Fun fact: in sonic 30th anniversary in page 69 (sonic learns to drive) you see this blue rabbit behind the purple car that’s feels the rabbit I’m surprised they did a small cameo in the franchise

[@MimikyuCookie]

I like to think the later games would be the children’s own retellings of the story as teenagers. Some of the characters could then be their OCS or something.

[@johnnygyro2295]

That's what I thought too. Mary wrote the Classic Era (1, 2, 3&K, and CD), but Sherry started writing during the Adventure Era. It got edgy at times due to Sherry working through depression and resentment at the government she blamed for her dad's death. She would manage to start healing though, which is why things started getting lighter again around Unleashed.

[@ferishia4596]

I love these kind of videos where someone just talks about cool facts about any franchise. I'll check more of your videos!

[@tonycorona8501]

A video about the inspirations of Sonic the hedgehog would be interesting, but it would require a lot more research than usual. Unless it's just the classic titles.

[@leilaclarridge5807]

Gamma in Heroes could have been a rebuilt version of him that Birdie controls as a mech. As for why he’s working together with Big and Chaos, maybe Chaos, whose fate we don’t know but he probably took to hanging out in the ocean, lead Big to Gamma’s wreckage when he was out fishing in the sea and they took him someplace to be fixed. Then Birdie somehow found out and decided to take control of Gamma as his pilot.

[@macaemeia146]

it's my head cannon that Feels and Terios are like the "earth 3" versions of Sonic and Shadow if Sega ever makes a third dimension to go along with the main sonic universe and the Sol dimension

[@Celtic1020]

21:51 counterpoint. Rock bands are thought of as free spirits and rebels. Which perfectly represents Sonic. However I think Sonic would be totally unreliable as a band member.

[@Monke80s]

13:31 wow, so the Sonic Storybook series could be a fictional universe, inside another fictional universe, inside a fictional but realistic universe inside what we perceive as real life which itself could not be real life but a simulation? Huh...

[@orchideqvinox765]

This is probably obvious, but something I find interesting about Sonic's ORIGINAL origin story was how it was centered around the wife of a WWII pilot. SEGA, once known as Standard Games (later renamed Service Games, which is where the name "SEGA" comes from), was actually FOUNDED during the onset of WWII for the purpose of manufacturing coin-operated slot machines before video games were even a thing. So perhaps having a WWII pilot at the center of Sonic's origin was initially meant to be a nod to SEGA's own origins in military amusement almost exactly 50 years prior. Also, considering Standard Games' big thing WAS initially slot machines before later shifting their focus to more amusement-oriented games such as pinball, I can't help but wonder if that's why casinos, gambling, and pinball are such heavily recurring themes in Sonic games?

[@superfandesonic1]

I remember hearing about the pilot story from some youtuber years ago. I don't know if I didn't understand it or if the guy explained it wrong, but for the longest time I thought the story was real !! I did end up learning that it was all fiction as I found the story online a few years ago xD

[@aarondoesyt3194]

I knew about time travel in Sonic 2 being the reason for cut levels, including our favourite, genocide city 🤣🤣 Even the 2 player music could have been past or present music for the original zone

[@TheRabbitPoet]

Look, you can't really get too worked up over the name "Genocide City," I mean, first of all, it's not like they included it into the final game, it was just a potential name for a potential level, second of all, they're just a bunch of Japanese dudes tryna come up with cool English-sounding words. I mean, how good do you think you'd be at naming a bunch of different levels in another language, like what if someone came up to you and said, "Do you think (虐殺) Gyakusatsu City is a cool name?" Well did you say yes? Because I've got bad news, buddy, you just OK'd Genocide City. Just because you thought it sounded cool. So cut these guys a fucking break already, they made Sonic 2 for fucks sake, when was the last time you made Sonic 2? Unless your name is Christian Whitehead then I'm guessing the answer is never, so please for the love of God, do not leave some fucking comment about how "offensive" you think the name Genocide City is, or I'll be forced to make an entire seperate video called "there's nothing offensive about genocide". Besides, even if this zone made it into the final game, it seems likely they would've changed the name to like "Cyber City." Who knows? Maybe if development went a little differently instead of Cybershell, I would be Cybercity, or maybe Genocideshell.

[@snickrdoodle_skywalker]

"Oh yeah genocide sounds kool imma call it genocide city" 2 days later "Well shoot genocides not good"

[@KidPrarchord95]

Another cool think to note about Sonic 2's development is that a lot of the music tracks in the final game are given to zones they were presumably not originally intended for. Allegedly: Sky Chase's was meant for Winter Zone, Aquatic Ruin's was meant for Sand Shower, Oil Ocean's was meant for Dust Hill, etc.

[@xedmin8424]

You could argue that Feels inspired the creation of Tangle in the IDW books.

[@F1areon]

There's even concept art of Tangle originally being a hare instead of a lemur, too!

[@Mr.Maguro]

As a fan of Tokusatsu movies, I think that the Mechagodzilla reference in Sonic Adventure is very cool in retrospect. I just have one small correction to make about the "Kiryu" thing though. In Japan, most incarnations of the character are called Mekagojira (メカゴジラ). Kiryu is actually the name of a very specific incarnation, that of the Millenium Era, which appears in Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla (2002) and Tokyo S.O.S. (2003). That being said, Kiryu is in fact my favourite version, so im 100% in favor of calling it Machine Sonic. It rolls off the tounge better and it's cool to see im not the only one that appreciates this design. I also highly recommend the movies Kiryu is in if someone is interested. They have high production values, well-written human characters and are in their own continuity, so they're very accessible for newcomers, aside from some minor references to other older Kaiju movies here and there. Oh and, unlike Pacific Rim, the Kiryu movies are actually insprired by Evangelion. People who don't know any better think Pacific Rim was based on Evangelion, when Guillermo del Toro actually just took much older Mecha Anime and Kaiju movies and made a Hollywood thing out of it..

[@bsharpmajorscale]

That origin story would make a great movie. Even a non-Sonic related movie with an original character as the guardian figure.

[@elibonham4388]

Did not expect this, I guess this is a intermission for reviews. I like it though

[@MartinLawrenceofArabia]

Interesting origin story for Sonic! As a kid I aways imagined Sonic being a stone statue that would come to life when needed.

[@WildWeavile]

I like to believe that if Mighty and Metal would have been in sonic heroes. They would have been on the same team for a special 100% reward. Like I can imagine mighty and ray are just travelling somewhere and they see metal sonic fly by, and they think it's "sonic" but in reality it was metal who had just stolen froggy and chocola from cream and big. Metal thinks it would easy to fool them, so he convinces him that the is in fact "sonic" and that eggman is up to no good (like he did with team sonic). Throughout the story, Mighty and Ray become suspicious about "sonic" when he says robotic stuff. And metal has to constantly make excuses why he is saying lol. After they defeat the egg emperor, metal reveal himself to the pair and he attacks them with lighting. Mighty and Ray escape the egg fleet, but they are upset that they couldn't stick around to help out sonic and friends.

[@deadcaliph6414]

Terios as a missing sibling for Shadow would work as a story. Gerald likely got the hedgehog and lizard designs from exploring Angel Island's murals. One mural displayed Perfect Chaos (a lizard-like being) and another displayed a Super Hedgehog. Gerald viewed these murals as representing gods imbued with the chaos emeralds and can potentially cure Maria of her ailment. Therefore wanted to create Sonic years before Sonic would've been born. I would posit just as how GUN has massacred those onboard the ARK, Gerald's personnel may have done the exact same thing to the remnants of Angel island, which would explain why Knuckles would be the only surviving inhabitant of the tribes. After all, Gerald would make a deal with an intergalactic equivalent of the devil to create Shadow. Gerald was not an upstanding scientist who snapped at the murder of Maria. Like his grandson, Gerald was never a good man.

[@ryley4457]

I love the idea that mary is verbally telling the story of sonic 06 in the 40s.

[@ドラゴンリュー-f1x]

Aside from the apparent lack of identity as the mastermind behind the incident in Frontier, the existence that once destroyed the people who prospered with the emerald that was described in the manual appeared as the final boss, and Eggman finally had a daughter. Looking at things like this, from my point of view, in the future Sonic will be able to see stories like these again, and the day may come when they make an unexpected comeback in a different form.

[@F1areon]

I find it interesting how many of the beta Shadow designs had the eyeball scar. Someone at Sonic Team must've been REALLY gunning for that part to stay...

[@Mello-Nova]

Ohshima was actually asked what Feels' real name was and it's "Max"

[@CringusMcDingus]

Max. It's literally just Max. Not even some cool clever name or something, just Max.

[@MegaFeeso]

That origin is mind blowing

[@CaptainChalo]

Very interesting video! That story about Sonic's original origin just blew my mind, it was just crazy. Also, I was kinda hoping you'd talk about the enemies and setting in the now iconic concept art at 19:23, we actually see the bottom right one in a couple of very early pre-release Sonic 1 screenshots, and the evil face in the background, apparently named "Nightmare Thirteen", was supposed to be the main bad guy in this early version of the game, where Sonic would adventure through a world of nightmares. This is the one scrapped Sonic concept I'd really like to see come back, particularly because those monster designs look really appealing to me, and "Nightmare Thirteen" could have a lot of potential as non-Eggman villain for Sonic to go against.

[@BraviaGames]

Sounds straight out of NiGHTS. Yeah we need a part 2 judging from comment suggestions

[@ScatterbrainPete]

Interesting that "Nightmare Thirteen" sounds similar to Death 13, which happens to be one of the tarot cards and as we all know, Amy likes using tarot cards. And no, that was NOT a JoJo reference. ...okay, fine. Yes, it was a JoJo reference. Lali-ho!

[@maipeikko3151]

the ribbon in the sonic 1 emblem, and specially the laputa ribbon is a reference to how some artist would frame names of locations centuries ago. i cant remember the name of it or anything. but its probably not.. bc of ghibli. its a common way of framing names actually.

[@awesomeocelot7475]

Ironically that IS Eggman Nega in rivals since he’s disguised as Eggman. Also apparently Eggman Nega is from silver’s time but he spent so much time in Blaze’s dimension that he even convinced her he was from there originally.

[@lauraikoko]

source?

[@half-pipe9791]

another fun thing that doesn't really have much room for discussion: an unused text string in sonic 06 reads "You can play an additional episode for Metal Sonic." this probably would have been some sort of dlc campaign i would guess

[@mypkamax]

[13:48] To be fair, many fairy tales originally tackled dark themes before they were sanitised. Also, I have a theory that's adjacent to Pariah695's theory and it's that the stories Mary Garnet would have told are of events prior to _Sonic Adventure_ and events of the aforementioned game onward would start shortly after Sonic saved Meg's life, which would explain why Sonic and Co. are in a realistic world in the first place. Granted, it gets convoluted with Dr. Eggman and his relatives in the picture, because Gerald Robotnik would have worked on Shadow the Hedgehog around the same time Mary Garnet came up with the character of Sonic.

[@KidPrarchord95]

Hey, so, a bit off topic here, but I recently had a thought, spurred on by your retelling and thoughtsof the original Sonic origin story in this video. I've never actually considered this angle before now, but it's pretty cool and makes a great deal of sense. I feel like a lot of people prefer to look at Sonic as something closer to a cryptid rather than a full character. Sonic. No one is quite sure if he's real. We know generally who he is and what he's about, but we don't know where he came from or where he's going. He appears just long enough to give us a taste of what he cares about, what he fights for, before disappearing when he's done. Sonic is a person, yes, but more-so, he's a force of nature. He is a vague entity of chaos, in contrast to Robotnik's concrete character of order. More than just a character, Sonic is an idea. He is the embodiment of his own beliefs. Sonic is freedom. He's nature. He's the little guy who stands against tyranny. Sonic isn't defined by who he is, but rather what he does. The reason he is so beloved and personally relatable isn't any of his specific traits. Rather, Sonic is a representation of an ideal world many hold in their hearts. He gives us hope for a better future. This, I believe, is why some people get so vehemently angry about how he's handled. This is why there are those who hate that Sonic was ever given a voice. This is getting off topic, however. To sum things up, some prefer Sonic to keep his mystique. Not because they don't like well-written characters, but because Sonic was not originally intended to be a character. At least, not exclusively. Having an idea reduced to a mere person was too much for some people. I enjoy Sonic, both as a character and as an idea, but it wasn't until now that I truly, fully comprehend why some can hold so much hate toward the Adventure era and onward.

[@Pariah6950]

I think you're going to like my next video.

[@KidPrarchord95]

@@Pariah6950 I like all of your videos

[@Astro_Crunch]

One of my favorite anecdotes relating to the creation of Sonic comes from Naoto Ohshima in an interview alongside Yuji Naka and Takashi Iizuka for Sega Magazine, each of them discussing their roles in the development of NiGHTS into Dreams and Sonic the Hedgehog. There, Ohshima said he entered the video game industry because he wanted to bring joy to children, jokingly telling people that he joined Sega so he could become Santa Claus. In a way, Ohshima's love of Santa and Christmas sorta rears its head in the Mary Garnet origin story, with Sonic almost acting as a mysterious folkloric hero who travels around the world and brings joy to people he meets. This sort of character archetype is remarkably consistent throughout Ohshima's body of work, even being seen recently with Balan Wonderworld (not to mention, Sonic's shoes being inspired by Santa Claus himself, or the fact that he was originally said to have been born on Christmas Island). Considering how many kids still love Sonic to this day, I definitely think Naoto Ohshima achieved his goal of "becoming Santa Claus."

[@GTproductor1]

I was literally just looking at your channel thinking, it’s been a little while since he uploaded lol

[@Inactivechannel-r6]

It’s been a week, jimbo

[@GTproductor1]

@@Inactivechannel-r6 In Pariah time, that's forever ago lol

[@inactivepleasegoaway]

fun fact about people putting cartoon characters on the noses of planes: there's actually a sonicretro page for military planes that have images of sonic characters on the front, so it actually goes full circle edit: the specific page is actually "References to Sonic in militaries", and while it does have one image of tails on the nose of a helicopter, other than that it's just a battleship with a sonic pin or some shit so technically i was wrong but i was also right

[@SweaterSwagg]

All this plane and flying talk is giving those Ghibli vibes you mentioned in a previous video 🔥 EDIT: @7:30 Ah, you mentioned it! Great stuff.

[@NIGHTBLOODUSAGI]

when i first saw mika i knew she was my new favorite spin off of all time

[@GamingintheAM0801]

I remember reading the Mary Garnet when I was 11 years old and was fully convinced it was real. That's probably what Sega was going for. I actually have the Japanese Special Edition of SA2 that included the Mary Garnet story in a booklet. It's all in English, too. It's interesting that Sega was still officially acknowledging this "scrapped" origin up through 2001.

[@Harrinsain]

With the Miyazaki influences, it's also pretty likely that the classics' environmental themes were taken from him as well, since most of his filmography HEAVILY features similarly overt environmental themes. It's probably most on-the-nose in his first film, Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind, which Miyazaki also wrote into a manga, as well as Future Boy Conan, his directorial debut (though that's a TV show, not a film). Admittedly, environmentalism was a pretty common thing in Japanese media post-WWII, with reflections on the nuclear bombings (hell, even Sonic has an analogue to nuclear energy in the form of the Chaos Emeralds), so it might just be coincidence, but it's still neat to think about. And on Laputa. There's an even closer parallel to Sonic 3 in that in the floating island is a mystical gemstone which keeps it held together, similar to how the Master Emerald keeps Angel Island in the sky

[@SocksFCGameArchives]

I’m pretty sure in the game Sonic Chaos, the story states that Robotnik wants the emeralds specifically to build nuclear weaponry

[@likeahorse]

Similar to your uneducated theorizing about rivals, I feel like Blaze and Elise were definitely one character early in development or something like that. both are these duty bound princesses with an innate magic fire thing going on that meant that they never connected to anyone who sonic teaches to loosen up and reach out to others. granted the way that responsibility is characterized is vastly different between the two and blaze being haphazardly shoehorned into 06 complicates things. But looking at rushBlaze and Elise as characters I feel like Darwin looking at two distinct species of finches and seeing the common ancestor

[@galten7361]

Same here. What we know of game development in ST back then makes it well possible that the devs for Rush heard about the ideas for 06 and especially the "firey princess who became closed off to others and meets Sonic who teaches her new perspectives."