The Story of Sonic Battle

[@wusstunes]

I love the weird pocket universe of this game where knuckles watches the news on tv and tails lives in a house made of his own head. No notes.

[@sandudelcea6707]

Tails lives in a house shaped like his head in IDW, which is canon, so battle is canon

[@TheAscendedOverAchiever]

@@sandudelcea6707 well I mean if Gemerl is a main player in the Idw comics and Gemerl was designed to be a copy of Emerl than yes Battle would be canon

[@ghostshrimp5006]

It is and it isn’t, the IDW comics, kind of just cherry pick the things that work for the world and just cut out stuff that don’t, like, for example, knuckles living on the ground watching TV, and he continues to lay on the master emerald without giving a single fuck about what’s happening below him

[@LunaMinuna]

@@sandudelcea6707Dr Starline even makes fun of tails in the comics and calls him a narcissist like Eggman lmao

[@1Hol1Tiger]

And Gemerl is in it ​@@sandudelcea6707

[@spritvio639]

I gotta admit, the mental gymnastics Amy does in this game is impressive. She deserves a whole gold medal.

[@Laekith]

It's really funny though

[@popdg2412]

Amazing comment

[@CableSpark872]

Actually, Amy living in Central City could be a nice continuity bit, since Station Square was just completely devastated by Perfect Chaos 2 main games before, it would make sense for her to migrate into another place during the reconstruction (or after the abandonment) of Station Square.

[@lauraikoko]

and it fits because after sonic adventure we never ever heard anything about station square so it makes sense for her to move to central city

[@keatonendler8202]

​@@lauraikoko Technically, it took a while to rebuild, but I guess since Amy needed somewhere else to stay until the flooding drained out for good, she moved to Central City.. and this takes place after Sonic Heroes, but before Advance 3 and.. Shadow The Hedgehog, where in that game, the player can choose to BLOW UP THE CITY.

[@quasar4780]

I really love Emerl and what he represents in this game. And that makes it even more dissapointing in regards to Gemerl, because I think there's really cool stuff to explore with him in relation to Emerl. Like, why was he created, exactly ? Did Eggman really need another robot to combat Sonic & co, when he already had Metal Sonic ? Why did he recreate Gemerl ? Is he like a perfected Phi ? Also, after Gemerl was repaired and strated living with Cream, we've never heard about him ever since. What's his relation with Sonic and friends ? Does Cream keep him because she like him, or because he is a way for her to cope about losing Emerl ? Does Gemerl think he has "owned" his place among the group ? There's really cool stuff here Sonic Team could have explored. Like Gemerl not knowing what his place is in the group, and fearing the others just see him as a replacement for Emerl, so he is looking to prove his worth in some way or another, and then Sonic & co reassuring him he doesn't need to prove anything when he starts getting into trouble, etc. It's just an iead I'm throwing here, but still, they did Gemerl dirty.

[@thetbhresistance7042]

I think the reason they don't do anything with Gemerl nowadays is because... They're probably literally just not aware of his existence lol. He's a decently obscure char so I can understand it

[@thetbhresistance7042]

The Advance games also have very dubious canonicity, I don't think that really much of anything in those games was ever acknowledged in later mainline entries. But I genuinely think that the major reason is just because the people working on the mainline Sonic games just legitimately do not know of his existence or what happened with him in Advance 3

[@TheKnightswhoplaywii]

Something to be glad about is that Gemerl is acknowledged in the IDW comics, acting as a bit of a protector figure for Cream.

[@rynobehnke8289]

@@thetbhresistance7042 I mean lots of bios over the years point towards Advance 2 as Cream's canon introduction still and I think it would be a bit weird to have Advance 2 to be canon but not 1 and 3 as well.

[@thetbhresistance7042]

@@rynobehnke8289 Advance 2 is commonly acknowledged as Cream's first appearance in a Sonic game however I do not remember them ever stating that it's the game where Sonic and co met Cream canonically

[@proximaeon]

Knuckles' TV is powered by the Master Emerald, prove me wrong, I dare ya'.

[@derekstryder2281]

"Welcome back to Master Emerald TV, the 'Where the f**k are the Emerald Shards' channel!"

[@blood-reaper]

​@@derekstryder2281 the damn fourth emerald channel

[@subjectnivleis7572]

Knuckles tv IS the master emerald

[@Zejgar]

And so we enter this brief period of history of Sonic the Hedgehog where the handheld games had stories on par with , if not surpassing, the home console games. Very exciting and not looked at often enough. Very glad to see you cover them!

[@Safalmao]

depends which home console games.

[@AxelsAndGears]

Oh my GOD a 2 hour long Pariah story analysis. How I've missed you.

[@gamefreakDX]

I can still kinda see Shadow referring to Maria every now and then. Maybe not as often and overt as Battle does, but I mean like whether he wants to move past his former self and all that, Maria is still a footnote in his life, and it's not exactly like Maria was a negative force to him. In the 25th anniversary bonus comics from Sonic Channel, there was even one where Shadow reminisces about the reason why Shadow was given his name, which was by Maria. So I still believe he at least remembers Maria at least somewhat fondly.

[@SuperHamachiBrother1]

Shadow's arc in this game isn't really betraying any of his development in his game, though. Just because he's making an effort to move on from his past doesn't mean he can just ignore everything that happened to him without even thinking about it anymore. I don't know how anyone actually expected him to just shrug off all of that baggage he has like it's nothing just because he made a point to say that he wanted to do so and dramatically threw a photo away in his game. Shadow is a naturally deep thinker. He can't help but be constantly aware of the things that he's experienced and how it's changed him as a person. But either way, the robotonik family is only part of Shadow's conflict in Battle. It also comes from Shadow trying to come to terms with the true nature of his existence. I mean, if he's trying to move on and start a new path in life, Shadow has to look inward and understand who he is and what he is. Which is where Emerl comes in. Throughout his story, Shadow is trying his best to convince himself that he and Gemerl are nothing more then weapons, built to destroy and that the world would be better off without them. Because, as Sonic says, he doesn't know how to be honest with himself and admit that he wants to be the protector of humanity Maria wished for. And learning of the Gizoid's awakening causes Shadow to doubt his own identity. Emerl's very existence is haunting to Shadow, in a way he's almost looking into a mirror whenever he sees the gizoid. Which is why he tries to destroy Emerl immediately, and later educate the gizoid on what Shadow believes their true purpose is. In his own words, "Nobody else ever needs to go through the things that I have!". But after finally learning more about Gerald's true intentions behind Shadow's creation. As well as seeing Gemerl continue to live as a free robot instead of a tool for destruction after his awakening. He reaches a moment of clarity. And inwardly begins to accept the fake truth he kept insisting on being correct as a lie, whether he admits it or not, deciding to live both for himself and humanity. Because he knows deep down that's what both he and Maria wanted all along. This is what allows Shadow to get the final bit of closure he needed to begin to move on from their deaths and start on his new path. Something that was only slightly touched at the end of his game's story. But again, it's not going to happen overnight. Shadow will still continue to fight with himself over these things because he's just naturally stubborn and contemplative. But the important thing is that he's making an effort to move on with himself and his past. And that Battle shows this struggle so clearly is why I think it's story matters a lot for Shadow's characters

[@soulbound2]

Agreed man I couldn’t have said it better myself

[@soulbound2]

Also this takes place befor shadow I think

[@ChaosGodEnerjak]

Well said. I think this would also best fit in after StH’s story mode but before StH’s extra hard mode where he starts training for G.U.N.. In that instance, he would truly let go of his past and work for them in order to ensure humanity is kept safe. That’d make sense of why he’s with them in ‘06 and why he (almost) could be somewhat of a ‘mentor-like’ figure for Silver who is also desperately trying to bring hope to whatever is left of his future.

[@talkingnart1563]

45:32 Personal headcannon: Central City is simply the Station Square but, rebuilt after Chaos literally demolished everything. "Alls well that ends well"

[@TronicSSJ07]

Or maybe they’re both part of one city. San Francisco maybe?

[@talkingnart1563]

@@TronicSSJ07 I mean I think that could be true but, then it wouldn't explain why Station Square is just never heard from again later in the series. but I do like your idea!

[@kaistemino]

ew

[@sonofcronos7831]

Central City is the capital of the United Federation. While Station Square is clearly not the capital. Station Square never appears again because is not that important. Is just the city of Sonic Adventure. Is Sonic X that made Station Square THE city for some reason...

[@talkingnart1563]

sonofcronos7831 neat

[@NoodlesInABowl]

I find it fascinating how Emerl shares a similar premise and fate to Metal Sonic in Sonic Heroes. They both are certainly robots, their initial purpose in life was to be a weapon, they copy other's abilities to get stronger, and they both are the final boss in their respective games. Considering these games came out in a close timespan, I find it quite interesting how they share similar traits, yet they vary quite significantly in terms of virtue. Emerl was in proximity with Sonic and Co., influencing how he behaves similar to them. Metal on the other hand was lacking a soul due to Eggman, so when he had the opportunity to develop a mind of his own (don't ask me when), instead of obtaining strength towards honor and heroism, he overthrows his master and attempts to take over the world himself. Kinda neat.

[@playerback7722]

True very true

[@CobraCodex]

The grim reality of Emerl tearing his "siblings" limb from limb reminds me of how Labrys was handled in Persona 4 Arena

[@dn22pkkdd476]

Maybe Shadow's depressed? After all the weird shit he went through in his own game, even after a triumphant victory over Daddy Doom. After the high of the win wore off, he could have lost a sense of purpose and tried to cling onto old familiar concepts, before just hitting a gigantic emotional low and considering himself nothing but a weapon to be used by others. Spending time with his "friends" (Sonic, Rouge, Eggman(?)) and joining G.U.N. may have given him back that sense of purpose. Until the timeline was reset(?). I don't know, just grasping at straws and headcanon to force this square peg of a game to fit into the oblong triangle shape of the Sonic "canon".🤗

[@matti.8465]

Shadow is clearly projecting a lot of his own self-loathing onto Emerl. He won't give himself credit for saving the world because he was "fullfilling Maria's wish", that feels like low self esteem and denial to me.

[@Yuti640]

I love how they have all these detailed sprites and great art but don’t make different colours for the chaos emeralds, which would’ve super easy to do

[@setteplays]

I think it's because of the shards collecting thing. They wanted to just collect any shards and restore any emerald without worrying too much about every shard color showing up conveniently one after the other.

[@ScradeCottontail]

seeing a location literally be named "Gimme Shelter" is hilarious. I guess Eggman's a big Rolling Stones fan

[@electroamp]

I love this game to bits and I love the fact that you are going in on it. Battle deserves FAR more recognition in the fandom.

[@UltimateTS64]

Also deserves far more accessibility, only ways to play it is on the GBA itself or emulation. Battle is one of the few games in the series I haven't played for that reason

[@Nic_2751]

I love it when the story is longer than the gameplay analysis

[@supersonicmario56]

Anyone here after Dark Beginnings?

[@WanderingNerd21]

🤚

[@dimastha2929]

Timetags 0:00 Why Sonic Battle's story is worth a listen 4:57 Sonic's story 19:07 Tails' story 27:54 Rouge's story 42:09 Knuckles' story 57:05 Amy's story 1:04:03 Cream's story 1:13:37 Shadow's story

[@JonyPlayz1]

Damn knuckles’s and cream’s story animated would probably be really interesting & fun to watch lol

[@ViltrumiteIsRite99]

Glad you showed that final scene. The dramatic writing took me by surprise. Imagine being 10, and reading that. Some balls on Sonic Team.

[@numbug1234]

I just wanna point out that the Professor Gerald entries are something you only experience on NG+ runs of the story mode. Why did they do it like that? I dunno, but they did. EDIT: Considering Station Square literally got flooded, I think it's fair to say that Amy moved homes at some point.

[@Pariah6950]

Really? I was using a completed save file so I didn't have to grind Emerl. And it's been so long since I last played the game vanilla that I don't remember. Weird that they'd do it that way if so.

[@thetbhresistance7042]

They probably did that to give an incentive for playing NG+

[@numbug1234]

@@Pariah6950 Very much so! And I still don't understand why, couldn't they have made it like a little secret thing you can find instead? That would be a far more natural method of getting it rather than making you play this story mode where they pad it out with literally repeating the same fight but longer a second time over.

[@spiritpyros]

@HypnoSpace Outlaw eeehhhh i would say that title belongs to soleeana Edit:iirc city escape takes place in station square or atleast one of the adventure 2 stages takes place there

[@legoboy7107]

@@spiritpyros City Escape takes place in Central City I believe.

[@anothernoise216]

Another great video, i find the discussion about Shadow's character in this game one of the most interesting, the way he's written it's clearly more based in the way he was in Adventure 2 for the things like "Weapons to be used by it's master" since in that game he's seen as a vessel to fulfill wishes, what is very out of character at this point, but that what makes me fascinated towards the idea of a remake for this game, that tried to polish the story, they could just change Shadow to the aspect of seeing himself in Ermel, seeing them as a individual and not just a tool, that's why he calls them by their name, and change this aspects of "a weapon and nothing else", he could see Ermel as a inminent disaster that he wishes to stop for feeling bound to it by his connections to Gerald, i know Shadow left his past behind after his game, but i don't see the ending of STH as him just ignoring his past forever neither, i think he just decided to never again live for his past, like he did in that game where all he wanted was to know his past, and the Gizoid apperance could be to him this last unfinished bussiness that he wants to put a end to so he can finally move on from being brought back to his past, but even then he does hold on to good aspects of it because he clearly can't really deny who he is and how he came to be, with the green emerald being possibly the one Gerald had when creating him, being something that reminds Shadow of those calm days of peace that made him become who he is, and by the end of his episode in Battle it's final good bye, a last look to the past giving the emerald away and freeing Ermel of his fate so Shadow too can get rid of all the bounded him.

[@anothernoise216]

And i like some aspects of Shadow in Battle, like the fact he walks around just doing what he wants without things like GUN, because i always disliked the idea of him being a agent for them like in 06 since in his game final part he just snaps on the sense of not wanting to be ordered around anymore, and leaving the past behind never really meant just ignoring the fact that GUN is a pretty shady military force, after all the did not only kill a entire space station but runned over a entire city with a truck too and i don't think the president saying that things gonna improve can just excuse all that, but i little thing that i don't know if it falls in headcanon territory is what i think about Shadow being "weak" for most of the game, i always saw that as him being at that point he's just roaming the world before going after Emerl, so as the so called "Ultimate Life Form" he just never stops to sleep or eat, so when he has that big fight in Eggman Base, it's like he's at his weakest for not taking care of himself because i truly don't think Shadow is the best in self-care, and that gives us one my favorite moments of this game with Rouge taking care of him in this state and Shadow realizing more how she's a true ally to him and it's someone he can always rely on.

[@anothernoise216]

Crazy extra little headcanon: what if Emerl first rampage in the ARK that destroyed half of the place, was the excuse Gerald used to build the eclipse canon? I can see a scientist with lots of power like him could have just changed the reconstruction plans without others knowing about, to defeat the Black Arms, since the first time we see the station, it's disguised as a meteorite, before the canon being revealed, so i believe the station used to be spherical but the Emerl incident gerated the right circustances for the changes to be made.

[@anothernoise216]

And yes, i do wish to talk about Sonic Battle story a lot, can't wait for the next video

[@matti.8465]

I personally see Shadow's idea of weapons to be him projecting his own self-loathing. He hates himself so much he disregards what happened in SA2, saying he was just fullfilling Maria's wish. But we're not supposed to believe that, Shadow is being wrong and stubborn.

[@CC-ks6nm]

I don't know, I've always liked this depiction of Shadow, to me Shadow has been maturing going through Heroes, Shadow, Battle and finally '06. Started with someone with no memories, going to someone looking for his identity, to someone who's solving leftover issues that he found accidentally, and finally to someone who is living in the present

[@matti.8465]

I absolutely love the way Battle is structured: linear chapters, each focused on a different characters, that are self contained but advance the main story. Personally, I enjoy that approach WAY more than having multiple character campaigns showing different perspectives of the same events, it makes for a more coherent story where everyone gets a moment to shine.

[@FuzHammer]

Amy literally manifesting an avatar of Sonic to help her fight is the funniest shit Istg. I miss Amy having eccentric energy tbh she feels so lifeless nowadays other than MoSTH Also in terms of Amy living somewhere else now... Station Square was destroyed so obviously she needed to move 💀💀

[@SEAWORRIER]

I do miss this period when the Sonic stories were ambitious enough to take themselves at least as seriously as a comic book, manga, anime, or other pulp media and had a bit of ambition in them, aiming for actual themes and messages. This probably is the most in-depth Sonic game story they ever did, considering how text-heavy it is, so it's fun to see how whoever actually wrote this approached things compared to what later writers did with all the franchise. Also, this really is as close to Sonic Adventure 3 as we'll ever get. It has basically every speaking character in those games returning except Maria. Gerald comes back through the journals and even the president speaks off screen! Not from his secretary though...

[@artey6671]

Yes! Sonic games use to be ambitious, experimental and maybe a little quirky. I'll take that over games like Forces any day.

[@tonycorona8501]

I appreciate your review. On the positive side, you made me reconsider Knuckles story a bit more. Originally I thought it was one of the weaker stories because Knuckles once again leaving his duties, and that made me ignore the partner relationship with Emerl. Sometimes I forget Knuckles is not meant to be a serious character, but a character with a goofy temper. With Shadow story, I'm surprised. For a long time I always thought it was the better story of the game due to the bond between Shadow and Emerl, and even if I was aware of the continuity hiccup, I let it sly. And in my mind, i just thought that even if Shadow made peace with his past, he was still determined to stop a tragedy like his happening. Of course, it was my headcanon.

[@ScapeVEVO]

“Who would buy these things from Eggman?” *1st world countries casually buying everything from China and other questionable 3rd world countries*

[@sonofcronos7831]

Questionable? All of the things that comes from the "third world", is actually produced by the "first world" countries themselves. They just use workers of poor countries as is standard for financial capitalism. But the products are privately owned by these companies from the first world. And in all Eggman is more of a 1first country arms manufacturer that just got rogue.

[@HAOSxy]

15:45 in Angel Island, Knuckles, doesn't have the tv set up nor internet, but he sometimes goes to visit Cream And Vanilla and watches Anime, specifically One Punch Man, there. I guess he also picks up some news.

[@LunaMinuna]

Rouge being the only level headed sane person in this game is so in character to the point where even shadow is a nut case this is so funny lmao.

[@sonality_1]

this will now make sence for the sonic x shadow generations

[@christian8657]

We’re going to see Shadow’s tragedy in Sonic X Shadow Generations 1:14:07 This video needs more views after the animation teaser

[@SweaterSwagg]

These are legit probably the best Sonic breakdown/discussion videos on KZbin! 🔥

[@HyperSonic1999orJTH]

If I had to head canon Shadow in this game, perhaps this is in a timeline where one of the 10 non-cannon endings in ShTH transition to Sonic Battle. In a way this could also explain why Shadow's character post '06 changed drastically as it's a different Shadow who made different choices.

[@iltiziocongliocchiali2301]

Don't know if anyone else already mentioned this, but in Sonic Riders Zero Gravity the company that makes most of the stuff, Meteor Tech, is a Eggman owned company (the logo is even shaped like an egg) so I believe it makes sense that Eggman sells robots here in Battle, he may be using fake names and proxys so that GUN can't find him and shut down his businesses. EDIT: The Chao are supposed to be like litteral babies, the same Chao that pilot killer mech walkers with machine guns, missiles and gigant lasers.

[@Abner-gu3ve]

KZbin rlly gon recommend me this now after Emerl was revealed in the new Shadow Generations trailer? 😂

[@EthanLR]

in the words of Aaron Webber, "Someway somehow, everything's canon"

[@onthedre]

Sonic Battles ending made me cry. Such a good story man. I hope Sega can make a Sonic story as cool as this one or at least remake it.

[@artey6671]

I really like this game, but I suspect it will be left in the past. Maybe it's better like that.

[@MisterMistea]

I actually think it makes sense for Amy to be in Central City now. Two interesting lines of NPC dialogue in SA1 says Amy lives in an apartment in Station Square and that Station Square is more of a hub linking several cities together via things like the train or Speed Highway. My headcanon is that Central City is one of these cities linked to Station Square and that Amy just moved.

[@sonic5993]

I'm just as shocked as you at the story being as good as it was when I was younger. I do love how Sonic Advance 3 serves as an epilogue to it too.

[@leonardoalvarenga7572]

Chronologically though Advance 3 happens much later in the franchise, either after World Adventure or right before it.

[@jalencunningham2012]

@@leonardoalvarenga7572 wait why would it take place after or right before world adventure

[@leonardoalvarenga7572]

@@jalencunningham2012 Because Advance 3's plot basically boils down to Eggman separating the world into pieces due to the Chaos Control he used at the beginning of the game. My headcanon is that he was trying to wake up Dark Gaia, but hadn't yet read the manuscripts and didn't meet the correct criteria to wake it up, so the single Chaos Emerald he used during the game's opening cutscene ended up sending the world's continents into different dimensions (which would explain why the characters cross rainbow skies whenever they move on to a different zone). Advance 3 ends with Sonic having the 7 Chaos Emeralds after defeating Ultimate Gemerl, so it could tie into the beginning of World Adventure, where Eggman lured Sonic to his space fleet so he could steal all 7 emeralds from him.

[@numbug1234]

@@leonardoalvarenga7572 Eggman didn't break the planet to wake up Dark Gaia. If you talk to Professor Pickle, his default hint lists (intended to catch up for anyone who was gone for a while) has him attribute the broken planet to Dark Gaia, with Eggman merely having woken it up. Because of that, Advance 3 goes back to placing pretty much whenever in the timeline again, because that planet breaking wasn't done to wake up Dark Gaia and was just its own thing. Beyond that it's all headcanon, which you said it is off the bat so fair enough.

[@leonardoalvarenga7572]

@@numbug1234 My reasoning for Advance 3 to need to take place either after it or right before it also stems from the fact that humans in World Adventure are panicking over the planet being split and they claim that that has never happened before.

[@emerlthegizoid9919]

Emerl, one of the best robots in sonic's history had his story cut a little too early in my opinion

[@Ssjvaca]

thank you Emerl for your opnion on Emerl

[@TheRealSuperKirby]

"Mario and kirby aren't gonna talk about stuff like war" *Kirby super star, kirby 64, kirby planet robobot, kirby star allies, and kirby and the forgotten land have entered the chat*

[@zjzr08]

Even if they aren't gonna talk about it I can say SMB3 is technically a one-sided war by Bowser against the Mushroom Kingdom with his Airship and such...also if we count the RPGs there are some war themes there like TTYD, Partners In Time and SPM.

[@iamlordapollo]

I always thought the holy summit or whatever is the part of the mystic ruins where angel island always lands when it falls. I know there's no legitimate evidence to support that, but it's the explanation with the least amount of mental gymnastics to make the most sense lol

[@Pariah6950]

Well in Sonic 3, Angel Island just falls in the middle of the ocean. So I assume it moves around.

[@iamlordapollo]

@@Pariah6950 that's true, but the fact that the mystic ruins has the echidna citidel, that means it was attached to it before raising into the sky, and landed there in adventure again. So either sonic 3 just didn't show the attached landmass on screen when it fell, or angel island has a sort of set orbit that it travels on.

[@inkchariot6147]

@@iamlordapollo Maybe the citadel was left behind when Angel Island was sent into the sky.

[@Pariah6950]

@@iamlordapollo I hate how we need to try to make sense of these kinds of things lol.

[@iamlordapollo]

@@Pariah6950 seriously lmao. Part of me thinks "making sense of it all is half the fun" and the other part is like "is it really that hard to keep track of your own lore and not contradict yourself?" Lmao

[@playerback7722]

Sonic battle has one of the best stories in Sonic history

[@artey6671]

I think Sonic battle is one of the most underrated and sadly overlooked/forgotten Sonic games. Many Sonic games feel rushed or have big flaws, but Sonic Battle is fully realised, I think. But what still keeps me playing is getting all the skills. I think this is one of the grind-heaviest games ever. The ultra skills are already hard to get, but the ??? skills are almost impossible. I tried finding people that have an obsession with this game just as I have, but I wasn't very successful. 29:16 Indeed, it's pronounced like phai in English. But I didn't notice the part about the numbering scheme, so thanks for the clarification. 44:02 Damn, cool idea. Also, you block attacks? I tried that, but I'm too bad for that. Especially at 46:33, that's probably the first time I've seen or thought about that. Not bad. One thing I noticed during the video is that the premise is similar to SA1. Eggman finds an old robot that gets stronger with Chaos Emeralds, but when it has all of them it goes out of control. And Chaos is in this game and it looks like Chaos 0, which makes sense because Emerl has all the emeralds at that point. I know that Sonic lore is anything but consistent, but I like if it's not contradictory either. 1:04:45 I think you're right, I never noticed that. I guess Cream taught Emerl compassion. It reminds me of how Amy persuaded Shadow in SA2. Personally I didn't know or even care that Shadow behaves somewhat contradictory here. I think what you say makes sense, but if you really want to argue that his character in Sonic Battle is inappropriate because of Sonic Heroes, then I think it's the other way around. Sonic Battle got released slightly before Sonic Heroes, so if anything, I'd say that Sonic Heroes misuses him. Or rather, they are both at fault because the developers may not have collaborated and he wasn't supposed to show up after SA2 anyway. I'm a little conflicted on that. Anyway, thank you for the video. I learned a few new things about this game and now I appreciate it even more than before. I also got a few goosebumps. And about the description, well, if you had asked me before what the thumbnail was gonna be, I wouldn't have known. But actually, I'm a little disappointed. During the video I noticed that there are two versions of this front-facing Emerl sprite. One where he looks like normal (1:18:43) and one where his third eye is open (1:20:54), probably indicating he got all Chaos Emeralds. I think the latter would have been more fitting for the thumbnail.

[@SonicLegends]

It is Shadow from Heroes onward however because of the fact Rouge even comments when coming across Gamma that it looks like Omega. So whoever wrote this had to have known about Heroes from that one line. I also always figured Rouge actually told Shadow to her own knowledge of Shadow's history and events from SA2 off screen around the end of Heroes given Shadow makes that line of saying "somethings never change" when she's about to go and try to steal the Master Emerald. But also as such from what was known of Gerald at the time given his almost destroying the world with Shadow putting in that work it makes sense for Shadow to be self loathing of himself in having lost his way from what Maria wanted of him as it was almost too late and that the vengeful side/last ditch effort reprogramming of what was a depressed no longer good Gerald left within Shadow almost won.

[@WildWeavile]

That clearly isn't the case since the events of Shadow happen and Shadow finally learns the truth about his past and what happened in SA2. And then he rejects it all due to the fact, that he doesn't really remember or care about Maria or Gerald since he isn't the shadow from sa2. This is a new guy due to his amnesia. He only goes on to fight black doom since this was his last "sin" that he needs to do before he can distance himself from his cursed past.

[@justinarzola4584]

Pretty sure this game is after shadows game and before 06, even though this battle game is from 2004 and shadows game was 2005, they probably knew the story beforehand.

[@TechBlade9000]

@@justinarzola4584 No, exact ooposite probably They knew non of the stories besides "Shadow's alive, Team Dark exists, Omega" since they'd likely be made when both stories are very wish washy in details

[@justinarzola4584]

@@TechBlade9000 I was taking about them maybe knowing how shadow's game would end with him remembering his past,not heroes,even then it would be unlikely since both heroes and battle were in development at the same time before shadow's game so shadow knowing his past in battle was more likely a coincidence.

[@SonicLegends]

@@justinarzola4584 I agree with this because also the fact in Battle that Shadow knows who both Gerald and Maria are and he even remembers his sacrifice from Adventure 2 in saying "That was for Maria..." that Sonic tells him for why he and Emerl have hearts. Also back to comment on here because of the Dark Beginnings prologue because of Emerl's appearence that we now have confirmation that Shadow was born before and did witness Emerl's out of control behavior on the arc that was mentioned from Gerald's journal entry #6. That recontextualizes his wanting to destroy Emerl in making much more sense now from having witnessed the destruction first hand. Who else is exited from that sneak peek?

[@yuzuichikawa]

Not only was Sonic able to solo the last battle on his on without super sonic... he did it with in like 20 seconds. OR 10 I forget the time. But point is That fight is kindof like Sonic going all out to stop Emerl from blowing up the planet in SECONDS. Kindof shows how Sonic holds back in everything until he can't. Sonic Battle... the true Sonic anime lol.

[@TheAzulmagia]

Kinda wild that this game takes place after Shadow the Hedgehog when Sonic Heroes hadn't even come out yet.

[@toonman5099]

14:25 - 16:16 While yeah, going forwards this game very much needs some retconning in some parts to make it more cohesive to the series. But considering Battle's story, I feel like it should have been that the Master Emerald showed him that Chaos Emerald powered robots were attacking jewelry stores, not that he was watching a TV, much like how it showed him the other Master Emerald shards were on the Egg Carrier in Adventure 1. If anything, the Master Emerald is the best thing that counts as how he knows where to be and what might be going on, I mean he IS the Piccolo of the series. 34:20 - 36:57 She was also written like this in Rush. I feel like that's why people have a distaste for Amy's love for Sonic, the way it HAS been portrayed very much comes off as a toxic relationship when that's not meant to be the implication or idea. It's meant to just be the "girls have cooties" or at best "I might like this girl but I'm too cool". The latter very much being a Sega of Japan reasoning. It's why the relationship has been so rocky since the start, she started out as basically the "Minnie" to Sonic's "Mickey" in design, but then flipped it to be that "he's too cool for relationships" which to me just feels kind of stupid. I mean you make him embarrassed and don't know how to express it if he actually likes her, but the way it HAS been shown just comes off as them bringing out the worst aspects of each other rather than any of the lighthearted "ain't that cute?" sort of way they THINK it's coming off as. At least for the English side of things, from what I can tell it's not as severe as the Japanese dialogue and script, but I have no clue. And honestly the reason of her love and temper flaring up is mostly just because of anime, and considering Sonic X was an anime, I think you can connect the dots. 37:07 - 37:48 I mean it's not just a problem in Battle, it's also prevalent in the Rivals games, and just in some fighting games in general. "Hey, you do something I don't like/you're blocking my progression somehow, now we're fighting." Was also sort of a thing with the Heroes game too. Although Battle does bring up a lot more questions if you've played other Sonic games before this one which really feel like they need a comb over if they're going to be reference for later down the line. Either cleaning the plot up or just retconning area's and needless plot points. 37:54 - 38:48 Realistically, I feel like these should have been the Phi robots, with the ones that ARE the Phi robots maybe being reduced to just one as Eggman's main plan, then having an "Emerl vs Copy" fight. Although honestly, it probably would have been better if it was Metal Sonic if that were to be the case. 46:00 - 48:00 Even more characters? What do you mean? We have a ton of characters that tend to go either unused or left as nothing but background set pieces in the main games. Granted I will admit having them straight up be clones of Gamma rather than it just be other E-Series robots is weird. Although to be fair, Gamma is technically the only E-Series robot they come across, & they did have multiple "Gamma" enemies in Adventure 2 with the E-1000 series robots. There IS Alpha/Zero since he's part of Amy's story, but he doesn't exactly look like the other E-Series Badniks. 1:04:02 - 1:12:40 Cream's story is good on the pacifism aspect, but it's kind of weird to have this be made when she was designed and intended for Heroes, first appeared in Advance 2, but the pacifist idea doesn't come up at all. Might just be a hindsight thing, but it's weird to have Cream who does nothing next to Tails as far as what they've done and how "active" they are or at least on how many adventures they've been on, where Cream has next to almost none because "girl" and the pacifist aspect feels like it was just forgotten by the wayside. 1:14:25 - 1:16:06 Maybe it could have been a recording of Gerald on the monitor? With the starting monologue also being a memory of Gerald that cropped up in Shadow's head? Not sure what would prompt it though. Since maybe this would be around after Shadow's title game, maybe it was an order from G.U.N. going "Hey, our intel found out there's this strange area that might have been a lab used by Gerald at some point, go check it out." 1:22:18 - 1:30:01 Hmm...this does post a problem. Although given the context, both some aspects of Battle (mostly Shadow's story and the level design) and Shadow '05 sort of need do-overs as far as how their stories are presented. Also you know honestly, this is kind of the thought I get when examining a lot of Shadow's current actions, while he isn't that up front about it, the recent depictions he's had feels like it's built off this idea that he shouldn't be around anymore. Honestly I get the vibe that, considering he's being written as really only caring about the fight and doesn't even consider the rest of Team Dark his friends and are just "coworkers" with Team Dark only being a brand thing (you know, conflicting with the entire point and idea of Team Dark), he's mostly just waiting for death so he doesn't feel like he's burdened with the responsibility of being the world's protector. 1:32:06 - 1:32:20 I mean yeah it's not super clear where he and Tikal go but it's heavily implied that they both returned to being inside the Master Emerald at the end of SA1. Which if it was shards of that instead of the Chaos Emeralds inside Eggman's robots, it would better justify why Chaos is present. Also to explain why all the shards and emeralds are green instead of any of the other 6 colors (well the shards sure, but the regular emeralds being green, yeah that I can't explain, that was just asset reuse to save space, I'd say).

[@Susseton]

I ain't reading all that.

[@toonman5099]

@@Susseton Then why comment that you aren't doing that?

[@Susseton]

@@toonman5099 I just felt like it

[@lpfan4491]

Chaos Gamma is actually kind of an issue, there is no way it should logically exist, especially not with the official model-number tagging him literally as a derivative of Gamma. That means Eggman creates a less advanced robot than the already Gamma-inspired E-1000s for no reason. Not to mention that being an E-100 series robot created after Omega is just...wrong, lorewise.(Same issues goes for the Phis. Even worse actually, since those have their own unique model-number...which is somehow lower than Omega's too.)

[@toonman5099]

@@lpfan4491 Very true, but as far as the E-1000's in SA2, I'm KIND OF willing to forgive the bots being used specifically there because it was made with half of the SA1 team. And I'd imagine if they were given enough time and resources, they probably could have been an early version of the Egg Pawns since the E-Series itself is basically an advancement of the Egg Robo's from the classic games. But I agree 100% that the reusing of Gamma's design post-SA1 is a little weird and the Phis should have probably been labeled as something else. Also something I discovered, the version we got in English may be the result of things being mistranslated, because apparently there IS a mention of Metal in Battle's story from what I've been told.

[@HesGotaGun505]

Of course Knuckles was listening to the news! As the protector of the emeralds he has to stay abreast of all jewel and mineral crimes!

[@AizakkuAnalysis]

Time for my favourite part of these videos: story

[@ChaddyFantome]

It's gonna be another long one so heads up. Funny thing about this game is my non-Sonic fan friend was the one that both introduced, recommended and insisted I play ti funnily enough. I very much agree that the overworld hubs in this are better implemented than in Adventure, though I would also like to add that I think the fact the game is a fighter/beat-em-up/RPG thing also helps because it's naturally slower paced than your normal Sonic game. Knuckles having a house didn't bother me but I sure as heck forgot about the whole news thing. Or I guess u didn't think about it too deep. The games' story structure Is also something I very much like and I largely agree that the format of having the characters' stories happen one after the other is probably one of the best ones. But I also think it helps that the entire game technically has 1 gameplay style and even has Emerl playable in between em all. Also I remember Rouge calling Eggman a dirty Bastard now! I remember that catching me off guard back when I first played the game. I think the idea of the Chaos Emeralds being able to be made into shards was actually a thing in one of the game gear games, but I'd be shocked id they were thinking of those at all with the Emerald shards in this game. Also it is in fact pronounced Ph-eye- I actually don't see Rouge's motivation in Battle is forced or weird at all. Seems in-line with it if you ask me. I also really like the idea of Rouge having a Club. Makes sense since she the world's biggest thief if you ask me. Same with Eggman selling robot sunder the table. We'll even see in later games Eggman does have stock in certain corporations. Also, I think it makes sense Rouge would buy em given her club is likely some under the table cover affair for her thiefs. As for Amy living in Central City, remember that Station Square got totalled at the end of that game so it makes sense Amy would have moved to somewhere else. Chaos Gamma actually bothers me way more than Shadow because with Shadow, not only did they actually do things with him but it was the actual Shadow so there were ramifications and consequences. Chaos Gamma is to me just a very cheap excuse to exploit Gamma's image. There is *some* interesting theming going on but none of it really necessitates him being Gamma for it. It's even weirder when we see Omega actually get mentioned later in the story which makes things even more muddled, but that's just a huge trend with Battle in many cases. Gamma isn't even the worst of it, can't wait til we get to Chaos. I very much appreciate Battle giving Knuckles room to breath and showing off his warrior guardian aspects, as well as you mentioned his dynamic with Rouge. I also find his gullible aspect is done a lot more tastefully here with him falling into Eggman's obvious trap. It's playing on his bad social skills rather than just making him believe Eggman for no reason like an idiot. Maybe It's just been a while but I personally got the impression of Cream just kinda hanging out at Amy's that day or whatever. Also ya kinda skipped the part about Amy's reason for training being that she felt guilty for not being strong enough to protect Emerl from Rouge back in Rouge's story. Cream mentions it and I like this aspect of Amy and the addition of boxercize to her character by extension. I think it's a fitting way that a gal like Amy approaches the idea of training to be stronger to protect those she cares about. I think it's notable that Cream is the one that gets the ultimate Takedown on Emerl in Sonic X. Makes me think the devs of this game felt Cream's story was significant as well.... Maybe. It's notable for being the one real character arc Cream gets in...pretty much the whole series and it's a unique one to her for the most part. I was looking forward to the part about Shadow. It's interesting because Battle was made and released before Heroes was released, and Omega is even mentioned, so it suggests that the way he is written is done without any knowledge of how he would be written going into Heroes and his spin-off at all, which is weird as heck and a shame because apart from that, I actually quite like Shadow's story in Battle insofar as how many of the themes tie into the core story. Also I didn't think about it but yea. Shadow referring to Emerl as Emerl is very weird. He should be referring to him as "the super weapon" or "Gizoid". I really love that line Sonic gives to Emerl at the after Emerl spills his guts out after the 2 v1. Not gonna lie but after you play through that whole game, Emerl's motor babble is very heartwarming and Sonic's response is just quintessential Sonic. I also like to think that last quip about showing him how to punch was another indirect dig at Knuckles on Sonic's end. I for one LIKE the Hunting gameplay in Sonic Adventure. You know what, you've actually successfully changed my mind on Shadow in this game. Yea, he is a lot more straight up sad boy emo than i remember and not in a positive way. That last bit Tails mentions about weapons and world peace is something i feel doesn't get enough spotlight in regards to how it speaks to themes present in the series since even the genesis days, but this post is probs too long as is to get into that. EDIT: You touched on it and I greatly appreciate it. I absolutely agree with you about even the more silly stories factoring in at the end. I'd even go as far as to say them being more silly was kind of important as that levity adds dimension to the memories and emotions you feel over Emerl's passing at the end. Was a great watch overall!

[@Pariah6950]

I always appreciate your super long comments, Chaddy. Though I don't really have much to say in response this time. It's pretty much just agreeing on most things. Thanks for watching and commenting.

[@rickshabusky4553]

Why is nobody making a fan dub of this game cutscenes?

[@jonatanp.1976]

It's Crazy how Sonic Battle is weirdly great, with an amazing story, fun gameplay (imo) and a rly nice soundtrack. This game is underrated af.

[@talesxavier5752]

Such a good game, and one of the best stories next to Adventure 1 and 2, Secret Rings, Black Knight, Unleashed, Riders 1 and 2, Rush and Rush Adventure and Heroes. And I like that they did Advance 3 as an epilogue.

[@Hyp3rSonic]

Facts

[@DonutSwordsman]

I feel like you can appreciate and leave the past behind at the same time. Shadow the hedgehog game shadow still knew what happened and he wasn't a villain in the end or after heroes so I can see why he's like, yeah I know what happened between me and Maria and I get why she's a good person, and admire than related to his existence. Oh god I'm looking too into sonic again! Lol

[@DonutSwordsman]

Him being upset about being originally made as a weapon is interestingly weird tho I agree. Maybe it's PTSD or hits home too hard

[@prestige8477]

38:30 Given that the same person who runs a huge social media app also sells cars that people willingly buy, AND they're trying to plant chips into people's minds... People buying security Robots from Eggman just sound like a exaggerated interpretation of what we see in real life. Eggman just being percieved as a greedy CEO in the eyes of the general public sounds fairly reasonable. I also think that Eggman running a social media platform would be pretty funny as a minor character trait (like him being a feminist), as long as they don't force the joke constantly.

[@uandresbrito5685]

That would work if he was undercover, but making a public announcement regarding his plan to destroy the world doesn't really support that

[@TevyaSmolka]

I love this game growing up and its story I thought was amazing and tons of fun.

[@Safalmao]

lets go! 1 hour and 45 minutes of you rambling about the game i already played (and was confused about shadow coming back to life out of no where with almost no reasoning to it).

[@thetbhresistance7042]

(This is a compilation of my big ass response thread into a single post, apologies if this seems like a kinda disjointed wall of text because of this.) That thumbnail has reaction image potential Adventure 1 and 2 have pretty different styles of storytelling and tone tbh. Just one of the many things that seperates the two games. Battle is much closer to SA2 specifically in tone which makes sense. I don't think the "sonic and friends live in Emerald Town" thing is supposed to imply that they always lived there for the entire duration of the series. It does make sense in relation to the Adventure games where the chars were always hanging around in human cities so it wouldn't really be a stretch to assume they decided to settle down in some town at some point in the series in-between the Adventure games and this game. Weird that they always use Rouge as the mysterious character who knows things the others don't. Heroes has a similar thing too The "semi-sentient creature that becomes more powerful the more Chaos Emeralds it gets" thing is taken straight from Chaos in SA1 There's a whole sequence after the Gamma fight in SA1 where Amy stops Sonic and Tails from attacking Gamma and where she tells them that Gamma is a friendly robot. Knuckles with his Flintstones living room cave The thing where each character story comes after the other wouldn't really work in the context of a 3D platformer and would make for weird pacing and progression however works in the context of a fighting game where every character works on the same base. The name's "phi" and you pronounce it like "fee". So you're correct Central City and Station Square are different places. SA2 name-drops Station Square and Central City also gets mentioned in the Japanese strategy guides for the game Amy is pretty much just a comedic anime "Girl" archetype in this game, having a temper, worrying about weight to an obsessive degree. Etc, a result of Anime writers working on Sonic The Gamma dialogue in this game is so ooc for what his character was in SA1, which technically makes sense I guess but he doesn't even really seem like a robot in this game I think you could interpret Shadow in this game as an alternate reality post-SA2 Shadow who fell into a depression over his creation. Which explains his behavior better In SA1, Chaos went to heaven with Tikal. This is not explicitly stated because religious stuff wouldn't really fly in kids games. But this has been corrobated by many interviews and the way they present his "disappearance" suggests that he went to some sort of afterlife. There's a common issue with these games where sometimes because they're action games for kids certain plot details have to get skimmed over for the sake of pacing. Which creates potential unexplained plot holes. ...I don't think scientific accuracy should come into question in a game with a blue hedgehog who can go at mach speed and an egg dude who can built sentient robot AI's and space station all on his own The ending in this with Emerl has a lot of parallels with Shadows "death" in SA2 On the whole, this story and the themes it has are pretty typical and standard for Animanga of this time, and since Sonic was always very Anime to it's core. It's not really that surprising to see Sonic games with these kinds of stories Overall, I don't think I would consider this "one of the best Sonic stories" it has way too many flaws and inconsistencies for that. Even compared to other Sonic stories. It has a good core however definitely needs another draft. I would rank it on the same place as SA2's story actually. "Good core, however too flawed in it's execution to be considered great"

[@Pariah6950]

I agree with your assessment that it's a story with solid ideas that aren't executed in the best way. But I'd argue that does still make it one of the best Sonic stories, as it doesn't have a lot of competition lol.

[@ScapeVEVO]

I can respect this take a lot. And pointing out the anime girl things Sonic X did to Amy is very appreciated and perceptive.

[@YinyoYX]

16:09 I agrre that knuckles dosent have a TV but he might have a phone. That would make more sense because then its just a thing he can go on to entertain himself and possibly chat with the others! Also i quite like the series as ive been watching so far.

[@giannicayon2806]

Man I love when sonic games use robot characters gaining a conscience

[@dluxx3719]

Just what I’ve been waiting for

[@paperprince2953]

I'm really liking this video so far. Anyways, I'd be hoping to see you do other Sonic Media such as the Shows, Comics and stuff. It would be interesting to see you doing Sonic Boom since I believe it wasn't even intended to be a Reboot or something like that. It was a "branch" from the Sonic Universe, kind of like an alternate universe not to replace the Main Games but a new timeline. I would love to see you review the Martin Adams books since those are never talked about in the Sonic Community.

[@grawman67]

Yeah, Boom was always meant to be an alternate universe. Never to replace the main games. Just a side thing that's unrelated story wise to the main series. The only things that branding related to were the Boom games, Boom cartoon, and Boom comics

[@SaddieMoon]

46:35 Actually, maybe the reason why they had Gamma here was because this game started development around the time that Heroes did. And Gamma at the time, wasn’t made into Omega and kept some of the plot details that could’ve been originally for Gamma/Omega.

[@MuhammadIbrahim-hp4ld]

13:18 I love it when make these noises

[@dn22pkkdd476]

28:43 Wait, that's some pretty strong language for a Sonic handheld game, sold primarily to children. How did this get an E rating while Shadow's Damn fourth adventure style game gets the coveted E10+

[@Pariah6950]

That's changed in the English releases, I'm pretty sure. I'm using the Japanese version.

[@talesxavier5752]

This is not uncommon in Japanese media, and with Sonic it is no different, Sonic for example since Adventure swears (In the Japanese version).

[@lpfan4491]

Didn't Shadow release to the *newly established* E-10 rating? It seems possible that battle was just rated early enough and slipped through the cracks.

[@aligaming7575]

could you make a video about the IDW comics maybe?

[@MisterMistea]

Possible headcanon: Maybe this game takes place after that semi-dark ending in Shadow the Hedgehog where he regrets his existence

[@yona3271]

amy in old days : a person who is volunteering to help everyone amy now : psycho stalker :)

[@thewackywarden]

Great video, though, you may want to reconsider your stance on Kirby at the end, there. The series hides it well, but it covers a lot of deeper themes if you're willing to look.

[@Sonicjan]

They could redcon Shadow to be a Shadow Android send out to spy on Rouge. The real one could be somwhere else with Omega and then shortly they and Rouge seperated, Eggman could've send an Android, telling her that he returned a little earlier without Omega. I mean, just having Shadow at Rouge's place to recover? Nah, that's really not fitting for him, that MUST be a Doppelganger Android!

[@SaddieMoon]

0:00 If I’d give a quick reason, it was a spin-off game, so it had less of a reason to be rushed out the door.

[@Gerbert67]

about the "who would buy a robot from the guy who tried to destroy the world" part, literally everything we buy is made by corporations using child slaves. it's pretty realistic if you think about it.

[@leritykay8911]

Honestly? Consistency aside... I like Battle Shadow more than the edgy hedgy modern Shadow. When he was asked about how he'll use chaos attacks without the chaos emeralds, and he responds that he doesn't need chaos emeralds, and he has Maria in his heart... It made me smile. Does it make sense in canon? I dunno. But it's better than the Vegeta-Shadow we've gotten since

[@sb6196]

Actually that might make sense. In shadow the hedgehog (the game) in the last story you are required to use chaos control to get past some parts of the level. At that point in the story black doom has all the chaos emeralds so it seems shadow can use chaos powers without the chaos emeralds they probably just make them stronger.

[@matti.8465]

Honest Battle Shadow is a perfect evolution from SA2 Shadow. Feels like what would have happened had the weird amnesia arc never taken place.

[@phzuh]

The goat just dropped another story vid y’all😱

[@yvngbek]

shadow getting beat in front of tails crib is crazy glaze

[@elibonham4388]

I've never played this game so I'm interested to hear the story

[@EWOODJ]

The Prof. Gerald journal entries are after you beat the story and replay episodes. Guess you used a completed save file. Not that it matters, I’m never grinding again.

[@SAsaiyajin]

I disagree with Amy being annoying in Sonic X. The 4kids dub ruined the nuances with their BGM, so on certain moments the comic relief of Amy's love hits different in the 4kids dub because of its obnoxious music that never gives room for quite moments. Its such a shame how many wont experience Sonic X how it should. The only thing the 4kids dub did right where the VAs but everything else was unneeded editting. What is bad from Sonic X overal is Chris Thorndyke being obessed with Sonic.

[@randomfox12245]

I have to say I really fundamentally disagree with your I guess philosophy when it comes to story analysis. You kind of have a habit of going "This story detail seems incongruous, I can't make sense of it, therefore disregard it and ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist." Like you're literally dismissing this entire game as being in a continuity hole removed from the rest of the series and that's just really silly to me? I just prefer a more Watsonian approach. Holy Summit is obviously meant to be On Angel Island and the game is just brushing past any depiction of showing Sonic and Tails flying to it with the Tornado so it can fit with the hub map system. The game HAS to take place after Shadow the Hedgehog, and just because Shadow resolved his amnesia crisis in that game doesn't mean there can't be leftover existential angst for him to continue grappling with afterwards. Amy lives in this city now because Station Square got flooded by Chaos remember, her apartment was probably totally destroyed and she moved to this new apartment. No where is it stated Cream lives with Amy you're just completely making that up based on nothing lol. It just seems antithetical to me to respond to something that doesn't immediately make sense with "disregard this, ignore it, it isnt happening" instead of. You know. Thinking about it? That's just me.

[@Pariah6950]

The problem is when I try to think about these things and fit them together, it is impossible for them to coexist. Holy Summit for example, in Tails' story while they are being pursued, Tails says they can get to Holy Summit once they get past a certain building. Implying you can just walk there. Unless Angel Island fell off-screen prior to the story, which would also be a problem, then it cannot be Angel Island. And Shadow's character here directly contradicts his arc in his game. It's not just some left over angst. He goes on and on about what the creators intend for their weapons. But in his game, he makes the conviction not to listen to what anyone wants out of him anymore. Shadow at this point would not care at all about these things. So I cannot view this as the same canon as that. What I find silly is to try to fit together a bunch of things that clearly cannot exist in the same universe. I'm planning to make a Sonic timeline around when I cover Gens, and boy howdy is it gonna be the weirdest looking Sonic timeline you've ever seen. So you might not like it.

[@rynobehnke8289]

@@Pariah6950 I mean for your logic to work do you have to ignore the word of the IP holder as they definitively stated that Team Sonic Racing is canon yet Zavok in it is about as in Character as Shadow was in Battle.

[@Pariah6950]

What is presented to us in the games is also a form of the IP holder's word. Which means they are contradicting themselves. In such a case, I trust what I see, not what I'm told. Someone can walk out of a downpour, soaked, and tell me they're not wet. But if I see them dripping water all over, then they're wet. That's basically the Sonic canon.

[@markfrey6664]

Sonic Battle needs a remake with cutscenes and voice acting.....good voice acting!

[@VirtuaMaster]

Amy was renting an apartment in Station Square. Perhaps her lease ended, so she moved to Central City?

[@supergeniuswithattitude1432]

15:51 idk kinda like the fact that knuckles watches the news I imagine it be in a old crt tv he found one day on the island or one of residents gave it to him as a gift I like to think he looks at it in case of danger comes to the master emerald

[@train4292]

I always kinda avoided Sonic Battle because the gameplay just looked off to me. I always was intrigued with the story mode, mostly because I was first introduced to Emerl in Sonic X, but the padding the story does in game mostly turned me off. Which…is a damn shame, because WOW people weren’t kidding when they said this story was good. I have a unique opinion where while I’m all for complex stories in Sonic games, I don’t want them to be like that all the time and want to enjoy simpler stories, and more slice of life stuff with the series, and the characters. But Battle seems to mix both elements of the bigger scope of storytelling the Adventure games (and i guess dark age games?) had with Emerl and his backstory, and the lore established before, and Heroes’s more laidback story, and i was really getting invested with the story recap of it all. And GOD that ending. It sucks to hear Shadow was a bit messy in the game though, which is a shame, because I kinda liked what direction they were taking him in here contrary to you. Ot goes against the ending of SA2, yes, but personally it was an interesting thing to him….but it kinda sucks that it breaks canon though. That aside, very VERY nice video, and a surprisingly great story that’s sadly relegated to this (mildly obscure) spin-off game. I hope they can make the story more known in someway, so Emerl/Gemerl isn’t in obscurity limbo like other characters.

[@Pariah6950]

Very happy to hear you were able to enjoy the story of this game through this video. Thanks for watching.

[@OdaSwifteye]

Sonic battle was such a boon to recolor artist back in the day.

[@JoshingYa]

Not a fan of Cream's sudden pacifism. This wasn't something that held her back in Advance 2 (a game where she could attack enemies by rolling or jumping into them by herself) or Heroes, so having her go through a brief arc of "fighting for loved ones" just knocks her down a peg only to build her back up to where she already was at the beginning of Advance 2.

[@Pariah6950]

Very good point. Doesn't really make any sense in that context. But that pretty much fits Battle as far as consistency goes lol.

[@luke4502]

Damn, Sonic's hand is fuckin' HUGE

[@sethmannerz]

This'll be interesting, I never played Sonic Battle and the gameplay analysis did peak my interest for it, as I also play fighting games, so maybe I do decide to see the game for myself if the story sounds good

[@dryadmantis5354]

LOL I'M LITERALLY WATCHING LONGPLAY OF SONIC BATTLE RIGHT NOW AND YOU MAKE THIS VIDEO!

[@Xanderoni]

This guy is against character development and world building it seems. The amount of nitpicks that are blown way out of proportion is kind of excessive.

[@Pariah6950]

I'm all for these things. I just want it to make sense. Is that so much to ask for?

[@Xanderoni]

@@Pariah6950 Sorry for coming off so harsh, I definitely agree with you, but some of these things seem a little dramatic. Here's hoping Frontiers can organize some things. The split between the US and JP continuity have had more negative than positive in effects on the canon. Same with corporate meddling. I guess my issue is that the solutions you bring up would require you to fix other games than the one you are reviewing which comes off a bit confusing. I get trying to do gymnastics to fit games into a cohesive timeline, but it can be a bit hard to follow. Sorry for my rude comment.

[@Pariah6950]

@@Xanderoni It's alright. I know I make some things out as more than they are. But it's a volume thing. There's so many things like this and it bugs me. It's not that hard to keep a story consistent.

[@Ssjvaca]

I just realized, Sonic has 5 fingers in each hand in this game, while cream has 4 in each, that doesn't matter a single bit but it annoys me a lot

[@matti.8465]

I completely disagree with you about Shadow, to me this is his best characterization to date. The whole time Shadow is projecting onto Emerl, the fact he sees himself as a weapon that shouldn't exist implies some deep self-loathing. He's disregarding his past heroic actions because of said self-loathing, and in the end Emerl challenges his worldview.

[@ScapeVEVO]

I’d love an adaptation of Sonic’s lore and world spanning across: Sonic 1, CD, 2, 3&K, Chaotix, maybe some Fighters side-stuff cause I like the Hooligans and Honey And then going into Sonic Adventure, maybe do Advance 1 between? Then Sonic Adventure 2, Advance 2, Heroes could end differently with Metal’s death, leading to Eggman needing a new metal enforcer of sorts, which leads to Battle (major story overhaul for this and many of the entries here), SLIP SONIC RUSH BETWEEN this game and Advance 3. You could use the instability of the dimensions by the end of the game as a window of opportunity Eggman takes in the aftermath to drop Gemerl on Knuckles, surprising him, take him out, acquire the Master Emerald, and destabilize their dimension ENTIRELY, leading right into Advance 3. (And maybe mix Advance 3 with Unleashed??? Maybe he didn’t mean to shatter the planet and dimension, but had simply been trying to wake Dark Gaia when the opportunity presented itself). (It would also allow time for Emerl’s death to be felt before the appearance of Gemerl, and I think Rush works better as an in-between arc than Shadow, I don’t think Shadow should be adapted verbatim, but his arc should conclude roughly the same.) And I legitimately think an adaption of Sonic Chronicles would be a perfect “final season” of sorts, it would be so goddamn cool. A beautifully precious capstone to anything and everything “shounen” about Sonic, and it would all come full circle, back to the original rival clan that lead to the desperate struggle for power, and destruction of the old world.

[@wreday720]

Excuse me sir but you seem to have forgotten to include the masterpiece story of Sonic 06 in this hypothetical adaptation.

[@rynobehnke8289]

So I would like to clean up a few of your points regarding continuity. 1) Sonic's friends living in Emerald Town. Well beside the obvious fact that the game can't mean all of them as at least Amy and Knuckles are clearly living somewhere else do we also know that Sonic technically owns a house. First seen in Sonic's Room mode in Sonic Shuffle and heavily implied in Secret Rings opening. So despite Sonic always being on adventures does he seemingly have at least one stable residence which according to this game would be located in Emerald Town which contradicts nothing really. And hey Tails got enough money to have a big lab and a house in the shape of his head this in combination with his workshop in SA1 only really tells us that Tails is loaded and got houses all of the world one in the same city Sonic's happened to be in. 2) Angel Island. See Angle Island stayed crashed after SA1. It did fall at the start of the Super Sonic story, was never seen flying up again and the logic for it flouting given by an old guidebook (that being to prevent Chaos from being released) no longer exist so it's almost certain the Island stayed grounded post SA1. Sonic Battle isn't even the only game that supports this idea as in Sonic Rival 1 we learn that in Silvers era was the Island renamed into Onix Island and now has a giant theme park on it heavily implying its no longer flouting in the Future (especially as being grounded would be the best reason to lose the Angel part of its name. The only odd ball would be Advance 1 and 2 but I highly suspect both to be pre-SA1. Advance 1 for still using the Original Tornado, which was destroyed in SA1, and Advance 2 for still being a fully functioning E-100 Zero in its special stages despite Amy destroying him in Adventure (I know he could be rebuild but as there is nothing unique about Zero and Amy beat him, I don't think that's to likely) It wouldn't be till Forces Prequel Comic that Angel Island would be shown as air born again. And as of the current TailsTube 3 does Sega just pretend like the era of the perma crashed Angel Island never happened. 3) Knuckles and the News. Listen I know Sega these days loves to pretend that none of Knuckles development between SA1 to Riders Zero Gravity ever happened. But during that era did Knuckles became a lot more open to the world. From going on Adventures with Sonic (Heroes, Riders 1) over fighting an alien army alongside the military (Shadow) all the way to him knowing his way around the treasure hunting community (Riders Zero Gravity). Which also makes perfect sense as staying ignored lead to him not realizing the true Nature of Chaos in SA1 which nearly screwed over the world which is a perfect reason for him to start changing his outlook on life. 4) Amy is nuts. While I entirely agree that Amy is WAY to obsessed in this game so is it worth nothing that pretty much all characters are to some extent exaggerated version of their self's. (Like Cream is more pacifistic than normal, Tails more self-daubs than normal, Shadow is angrier than normal, Rouge is even more selfish than Normal, Sonic goes far more out of his way to troll Knuckles) Which I feel was done to make it to children playing these games more clear how Emerl's personality is formed by adapting traits from many different characters (which makes Cream's story actually one of the most important ones as she is the only one to teach Emerl that there is more to life than battling) It works for more characters fine enough I think but it really hit Amy the hardest. Which is a shame because the part of her story in which she feels after failing to protect Emerl that she needs to grow stronger and does so on the most over the top way possible is something I really love in concept. It being tied to her wanting to also look better for Sonic was absolutely the wrong thing to say (unless you want to argue she only says so so that Cream wouldn't complain about the training) 5) Club Rouge. Na we all know Eggman owns Casino Night and Cream owns Casinopolis./s 6) The Eggman business model. Well for one I think it's worth mentioning that if Eggman sells his Robots who in the Criminal underworld wouldn't want to buy these Military Graded, always loyal war machines? Hilariously enough isn't battle even the only game that shows Eggman selling his tech. He through the Meteor Tech company he owns even got the dominance on the official legal public security sector if Riders Zero Gravity is to be believed. Riders 1 also has one of the extrem gear manufacturer be "Robotnik Corp." so he properly also has his fingers in that business. And while point 5 was kind of a joke does Eggman in Rivals 2 Flat out states that he owns the casino zone in that game. 7) Amy's new place. Hey, Station, Square kinda got destroyed in SA1 so is it really that unlikely to think that Amy moved to Central City after her living space in Station Square was destroyed by perfect Chaos? 8) I mean Chaos Gamma is for all intense and purposes a fully new Character the real Gamma is still dead. If anything, it's a perfect show for how uncaring Eggman is as he just ripped Gamma's brocken body apparent to use his spare parts to build a new Robot with him. 9) I suppose Cream and Amy are supposed to be Sister like friends so Cream spending a summer by her friend is at least not entirely illogical. 10) Chaos Gamma does explain that he was originally experimented on for the Chaos Emerald powered Robot test. The Emerald that was taken from him was properly the one Eggman at the very start of the game gave to Emerl before throwing him out. (And yes I agree Cream's story is amazing) 11) Okay yes exposition Rouge at the start of Shadow's story makes no sense. 12) As Shadow the hedgehog the game was written by Iizuka while Heroes was written by Shiro is it entirely possible that nothing of Shadow's story post heroes was even remotely planned out (or that if it was Iizuka didn't change course on a wimp as he tends to do) So Battles writers only had Heroes to go off from what Shadow after his return would be like. It's a obvious contradiction between Shadow and Battle to be certain. But I'm not sure if it's actually more problematic than Amy is in this game. Timeline wise does Battle have to take place after Shadow's solo game despite the contradiction as Shadow's entire game hinges on Shadow having not enough details or restored memories to come to a clear conclusion on who he is which allows him to be manipulated by all sides in his solo game. And given that he isn't a GUN agent yet would it properly take place between the ending of his solo game and the start of his solo game's expert mode. My personal headcanon is that after saving the world again in his solo game did he grow so annoyed that everyone thinks he is this big hero than he decided to go full Edge Lord mode. On contradictions of a whole. Let me be clear here Sonic Unleashed is still far worse than Battle when it comes to continuity yet as Generations made pretty clear its absolutely canon. So given that Amy is also way out of character do I not think that Shadow being an Emo in this game is the nail in the coffin to make this game non canon. Never mind that Advance 3 kind of needs Battle to be canon to work so yes Battle despite his major break with Shadow is still certainly canon. 13) I suppose on the death Egg part it's worth noting that the games translation isn't the best (like in the Japanese version is shadow pretty clear in make himself and Emerl distingue as Ultimate life from and Ultimate existence but the translation often turns both into just Ultimate life Form. So this Death Egg hoopla maybe was caused by bad translation. That being said it's a common issue in the series that the characters sometimes are amazed by something that they already saw before (Like Sonic by the Egg Carrier despite have seen Wing Fortress and Flying Battery before) 14) Well at the very least the previously mentioned Sonic Forces prequel Comic is stating that yes Battles treatment of Chaos is entirely canon. 15) Everyone can control the Master Emerald. It was never stated to be a Knuckles trait. I mean Tikal could and she did using a pray ancient to even her passed down throw generations in her family. Knuckles using it to shutdown Emerald in SA2 was a plot hole there as only Tails and Big ever get to hear the pray in SA1. 16) The thing with Sonic is one idea that is often mentioned across the series is that Sonic WAY more powerful than he usually lets on. Like Sonic not holding back would completely crush Shadow. Sonic Battle is properly the one time were this is the most on display. So, I hope this comment did help explain a few of the continuity questions that you had.

[@Pariah6950]

1) I do not think the house in Shuffle can be used as evidence of anything. Not every single little minor detail in the games is supposed to be thought of as canon. Sonic doesn't arbitrarily implode if 10 minutes pass without him moving enough. And I see no reason the house in Secret Rings can't be Tails' place that he's crashing at. I also don't give Sonic Team that much credit when it comes to thinking about these things. I don't think Tails' workshop in this game is "his 4th workshop" counting Tails Adventure, Fighters and SA1. They way they write these games, this is "Tails' Workshop". That's it. No more thought is meant to be put into it than that, as that's all the thought they put into it when making the game. 2) I have heard about this theory that Angel Island stays on the ground after SA1. But I find that extremely dubious. We see it fly back in the sky at the end of Knuckles' story in SA1, despite it no longer containing Chaos. While not clear while it falls during the last story, it seems to be implied that Chaos somehow causes it to get at the Chaos Emeralds. So I find it likely it goes back to floating at the end, we're just not shown it. We also see it in Sonic Advance 2, which we have no idea when it takes place. It could very well be after SA1. And considering how they handle this series, my assumption is to think a game takes place at the "present" of the series when it was made, unless stated otherwise. Because for all we know, Sonic Lost World could take place before SA1. Yet I don't think anyone assumes that. There is also no reason to assume Onyx Island did not fall out of the sky at some unknown point in the future. Plus Rivals contradicts other games as well. Also we have Sonic X and Chronicles, which while non-canon, were definitely made with a lot of game canon in-mind. They likely received notes on the Sonic universe from Sega when making those, and thus Angel Island floating in those things is evidence toward it staying in the sky. And the Forces comic re-affirms this, if we even want to count that as there basically is no such thing as canon in Sonic by that point. 7) That's a good point. I didn't think about that. 8) I think of this from the creators' perspective. Chaos Gamma does not exist because Eggman decided to use broken parts from old robots. Chaos Gamma is here because they wanted to shove a familiar Sonic character into the game, and they made up a way to justify it. That does not make it okay by me. 9) Also a good point. 10) A guess. A fair one. But that's not actually part of the story and nothing hints toward it, so I can't accept it. 12) There is no reason to assume Shadow is not a GUN agent during Battle. He could just be off the clock, as Rouge is in Heroes. And oh I got some thoughts about Gens and what it does to the canon. I'll get there soon enough. And I don't even know if we can consider Advance 3 canon, whatever that even means for this series. Gemerl disappears after that game. 15) Another assumption. Perhaps only members of Knuckles' clan can do it. Perhaps you need to know the magic words. Perhaps anyone can just do it. We can't say either way. But X does depict Knuckles as being the only one who can do it at present. So again, I use that as evidence. That's all I had thoughts on. Other things I just disagree with, or have commented on in previous videos. Thanks for such an in-depth comment. I mention this in my Shadow story video. The real issue with a lot of what you mention in this comment is we don't know these things because they never tell us, so we have to guess what's happening. And that should not be our job.

[@rynobehnke8289]

@@Pariah6950 I do have a few things more to say about your reply. 1) While yes, it's more than likely that the writers didn't consider any of this when writing BUT we talk he pure continuity so if it fits it fits regardless of if it was the writer's intention or not. So I really don't see a reason why it should be a problem especially given when latter writers than tie these 2 each other non-contradicting data together in a great whole as well. Also, while sure not all of these gameplay mechanics like "Sonic Room" have to be canon but this is also a series were often enough there are canon (like Chao Garden's) 2) Well Angel Island rising at the end of Knuckles story is obviously a minor pothole in SA1 to give Knuckles story a satisfying ending. Similar to how in SA2 Eggman presses the fire button on the Eclipse canon without start hearing it explode because of Sonic's ending happening at the same time. And you do latter in your relay often reject my points based on being assumptions but Angel Island just flying again off screen is quite the assumption on your part now. I would have liked it if you in your advance 2 comment would have actually acknowledged my response, I already build into my original comment about how I think it's reasonable to place Advance 2 pre-SA1. And your Lost Worlds comparison is a rather weak one as its one of the easiest games to place. Sonic insults Eggman as Baldy Mc Nose hair which is an insult, he wanted to use against him since learning it in Colors from the wisp's. This definitively places Lost world post Colors already. But because Generations story was kickstarted by the finally of Colors leading to Eggman finding Time Eater does it also mean that Lost worlds has to come after Generations as Generations takes place as the aftermath of Colors resolution. And because in Generation Eggman explicitly targeted undoing previous failures do all adventures depicted in Generations have to take place before it. I mean as Nega did steal the Master Emerald from Onix Island and then used it imminently to time travel the Island back to the past would the Master Emerald almost certainly still be in the Future Angel Island as it's in the present. So, what other change could happen for it to become grounded even if the Master Emerald is still resting there? I Do realize that Nega's origin is kind of a mess thanks to Rivals but as its the canon reintroduction of Silver after 06 deleted itself and it's the only one does that mean every single game with Silver in it except for 06 needs Rivals to be canon to not fall apart. So, it absolutely has to be canon even if it opens a lot of questions concerning Nega (which aren't unanswerable ether as Sonic and Tails never learn about Nega in ether Rivals games always thinking it was just Eggman not knowing it was Nega in disguise). You really want to turn Rivals down but bring up an Anime that contradicts even the games it adapts constantly? Sonic X was maybe made with Sonic team's help, but their abysmal Sonic Battle adaption alone should already raise alarm bells on its wight in such a discussion. And that is just the single most obvious thing I could just as well point out how Shadow was made to be far stronger than Sonic in X while in Game canon its almost consistently the case that Sonic beat's Shadow most noticeable in the Final Hazard fight were the games lore of Shadow admitting Sonic to be the true Ultimate life form being cut in favor of giving Shadow an all new powerup to make him look even stronger compared to Sonic and move the reason for his death from "He wasn't as good with a Super form as Sonic" to "He did activate his super mode power that makes him far stronger but burns through all his energy quickly". Without some pretty strong reasoning as to why something from X should be considered will I not take X as an good source for game lore. As for Chronicles that game has a ton of lore issues in itself (just the Codex has such fantastic mistakes like saying Amy's fully name is Amy Rose the hedgehog), Its world map doesn't really add up (like the location where Green Hill is for example). And I'm pretty sure that we mostly have so many continuity issues is because there is no lore master to ensure the games stay consistent so Chronicles have such a mistake and no one pointing it out isn't that weird (I mean Sega told them last minute first that over half their soundtrack couldn't be used thank to legal issues) 8) From a creators perspective do I see it more as them wanting to have this big plot twist were its revealed it wasn't gamma after all it was a Evil replica made of him. If they actually just wanted to have Gamma do I think that they A) Wouldn't have altered his personally entirely and B) Wouldn't have changed his design to were it not too hard to tell them apart from each other. 10) I mean what exactly speaks against it happening off screen. Between Chaos Gamma statements about him being the first to be tested with the new Emerald powered robot technology and Emerl stealing his thunder does it appear reasonable that he was not only made before the Psi Robot from which the first as Eggman stated were Finished when he throws Emerl out. So there seems to be plenty of Time between Chaos Gamma's creation and Emerl being thrown out to have the Emerald Emerl had in Sonic's opening to at first be in Chaos Gamma. That seems to be like just the logical thing here. 12) Maybe its because of how edgy Shadow is in Battle or maybe it's because given Rouge assignment would I have assumed that if Shadow was already an Agent it would have been mentioned given how finding his place in the world was part of Battles story. But I guess technically does nothing say he isn't an agent already. Well seems like you gonna get yourself into some pretty good water with whatever your thoughts on Gens are. I mean given that Cream's first meeting with Sonic still points towards Advance 2 and only having one game out of a trilogy be canon would seem kinda weird, so I have to assume all 3 Advance games are canon. As for Gemerl to be fair Vanilla isn't in a much better position ether having exactly 1 more appearance after Advance 3 that being in Rush and then she was gone forever as well just like Chocola Chao and Gemerl did before yet hardly anyone will argue that these 2 aren't canon just because they seemingly disappeared into Cream's house to never emerge again. 15) I mean this assumption seems game wise pretty baseless and if you really want to mention X could I point towards Post-Reboot Archie Sonic which was under rather strict supervision from Sega editors which allowed Shadow to use the Master Emerald's power to power up his Chaos Control, or how about Mecha Sonic Mk2 in Sonic and Knuckles being able to super charge with the Master Emerald to gain a pseudo-Super Form. I'm glad that you appreciate the effort I put into my previous comment. And while yes, it's not good for a story to not tell us what exactly all is happening so do I think a story should also be able to expect its consumer to be able to at least figure a few connections out without having to directly state them.

[@Pariah6950]

1) As a writer myself, I don't prioritize pure continuity. I prioritize the creator's intent. So when an intention is for something to be one way, and then later that gets contradicted, I see that as breaking canon. Adding to existing details is one thing. But straight up overwriting them with something that cannot possible exist with established story elements is unacceptable to me. And after-the-fact trying to sort this stuff and go "No. See guys. It actually totally worked all along!" is just a feeble attempt to dig yourself out of a hole. It doesn't change that the original intention was one thing, and what comes after breaks that. I don't put the "current" state of the canon above previous states of it. 2) I am fully aware that Angel Island rising again offscreen is my own assumption. That's what I was saying. We have to make assumptions, and so naturally we will come to different conclusions on these things because it's not clear. I did totally forget that Nega gets the ME from Onyx island there. So that does lend some more credence to that being the case. But I still think there's more evidence leading the other way. And while my Lost World example may not have been exactly right, the point still stands. So many Sonic games have stories unrelated enough that they could take place at any time. If you want a better example, Unleashed could take place before SA1. I don't think there's anything there that contradicts that. But regardless, the real point is that there is no reason to assume Advance 2 is before SA1. 10) Nothing speaks against that being the case. But in that same vein, as I said in another comment, there could also be a threat of nuclear war happening offscreen in Toy Story and we just never see it. But that's not how storytelling works. If it's not presented to us as part of the story, it's not part of the story. It's just a plot hole. And I will not fill it for them, as they didn't think about it themselves. So by creator intent, there is no explanation. 12) The deal with Vanilla, Chocola and Gemerl is exactly my point about creator intent over pure continuity. Where is Gemerl during Rush? He doesn't exist. He wasn't part of what they wanted to do with that story, so he's not there even though he should be. Which contradicts the ending of Advance 3. So Advance 3 can't be part of the Rush canon and vice-versa, as neither considered the other when making their stories. Each game is non-canon to the other. That's the only way it can make any sense. And I'd be fine if every Sonic game was it's own pocket universe. But then some things do carry over from other games while other things don't. This creates an impossible continuity. Like I said, my Gens video will be something. 15) Again, it's one of those things that we just don't know so we have to assume. And we've come to different assumptions. It really doesn't matter who's right. The fault is on Sonic Team for allowing things like this to exist. Fun conversation. I'll probably bring up the Angel Island staying down thing in my Rivals story video, and let people come to their own conclusions on the matter.

[@rynobehnke8289]

​@@Pariah6950 As you talked about your reasoning for your priorities would I like to response one more time to also explain my own 1) I prioritized pure continuity because it's a shared series. it's not a case where 1 writer has power of everything no its a continues series with many different writers contributing towards its ongoing continuity and build on what other established. Therefor can't any of the individual writer's intention be taken as the word of God as none of them is said God they are just another child that got the chance to play in the Sonic sandbox like many before and after them did too. So, because in the future they will still be more new writers that will use elements established by different writers long before them can't I just periodized individual writers and give the greater whole of the series continuity priority over its individual contributors. I mean I fell with your way of going about it would you have a mental breakdown trying to comprehend almost any long-lasting series with multiple writers attached to it like Superheroes Comics. That being said only because a plot hole is retroactively fixed doesn't that mean the original story has now 1 less flaw it's still a flaw in its individual component. But it has to be a real contradiction as long as its wage enough to not technically break anything else is it ether a contrivance or even more harmless and oddity. So, while Battle's writer maybe intended to have this the location were all of Sonic's friends lift so doesn't it technically contradict anything else it's an oddity that they all have living spaces this close to each other but not a continuity breaking plothole ether. And the implications of this oddity could (and in case of for example the IDW Sonic Comics would) be used as plot points in latter stories without breaking anything. And 1 final 1 is because by separating continuity the way you want to do we end up with a bunch of shallow mini continuities rather than 1 fleshed out big one which I for an ongoing series massively prefer. 2) Which is my problem when Angel Island these days flying again as it is something that wasn't shown but is given that Knuckles had no reason why it crashed again in the first place is too big of a point to just chuck it up to happening off screen without mentioning it ever. I mean so far is the count Battle and Rivals for being grounded and prior to Forces prequel Comic was the only thing that could be argued to be the opposite would be Advance 2. But on that note of things abbreviated to SA2 so would a still grounded Angle Island certainly help explain a few things about Knuckles story in Adventure 2 given how the ME's ability to let Angle Island fly is never mentioned, there is no mention of the Island ever falling and it also explains how Rouge could just that easily get on the island to steal it (as its only mention was in Knuckles opening recap were he stated he chased Rouge all the way to the desert from Angle Island after she took the ME (Rivals 2 also has a missing Master Emerald plot and again no mention of any falling islands ether)) But are there really that many games that you could just place were ever tho? Ignoring the clear spin off like Sega Tennis and the 90's spin-off games as many creators from that time did say no one gave a shit about continuity. what do we are left with? The Main games all have a clear progression from SA -> SA2 (Tails got the Emerald for the End of his SA1story) -> Heroes (Shadow is back after seemingly dying as admitted by multiple characters) -> Shadow (Continuation of the Android Shadow plot point from Heroes) -> 06 (Shadow is a GUN Agent now while he joined during his games expert mode) . After 06 Does it get a bit weird for main line games, but I did already explain by Colors -> Generations -> Lost world has to be the case. We know that Black Kight happens after both Secret Rings as sonic is reminded of his "Friends faces on different people" thing from Secret Rings and his date with Amy that he missed was setup in Unleashed where the play can ask Amy out on a date. Because Generations directly references Secret Rings does at least it have to come before Colors as well. And most of the spin-offs also fit in just as easily As the Rush games need to come before the Rivals games as Eggman wouldn't work with Nega in the Rush games after what happened in Rivals 1. As Sonic and Silver know each other in Colors DS do the Rivals game need to come before Colors at the very least. Advance 3 obviously needs Battle to happen first and despite the plot issues we discussed here if Battle is to be placed anywhere its post Shadow's solo game because that game makes even less sense than Battle Shadow if he would already have so many of his memories back. Rush is one of the harder to place games. Its usage of Egg Pawns as enemies obviously puts it post Heroes which is where these E-1000 Robots were used for the first time, and we know it must happen before Rivals 1 in which Shadow doesn't seem to have any issues with his identity placing it after his solo game meaning Rush 1 and 2 must happen somewhere between Heroes and Rivals 1. So, while there is some lean way for some games are there usually still some pretty solid barriers were which game could possibly take place. I'm almost certain All I wrote was a waste of effort due to your view on his contradictions that are to big for you to suspend your disbelieve should cut continuity apart into smaller self-contained continuities but I still wanted to explain my point properly. And I'm pretty sure I gave my reasoning for my placement of Advance 2 using the still existence of Zero from Adventure as my point given its destruction by Amy in Adventure 1. Another argument I neglected to mention earlier is Knuckles. In Advance 2 does he seemingly just believe Eggman and is tricked that way like in 3&K while he is more cautious in Adventure where he doesn't believe Eggman prior to seeing what he believes is a Master Emerald shard in Sonic's hand. It also makes Sonic making fun of Knuckles work better in Adventure when the 3&K situation wouldn't have been the only time were Eggman tricked Knuckles prior (yes, I know about Tripple trouble) 10) I don't think your comparison here is very good. My assumption is based on 2 clear cut Peaces of information we were given by Sonic Battle (Eggman prior to throwing out Emerl gave him a Chaos Emerald one. And Gamma complaining that He ones lost an Emerald because it was given to Emerl instead) I just put these 2 peace's of information together to form the logical conclusion. A Plothole is a clear contradiction, but neither is contradicted by this line in Sonic battle all the information to understand what happened are there. While headcanon's shouldn't be something a story should rely on so should a story be able to expect from its players to put 2 and 2 together to get 4 or in this case : Eggman gave Emerl an Emerald and Eggman took and Emerald away from Gamma to give it Emerl to come to the conclusion of Eggman took the emerald away from Gamma gave it Emerl and after Emerl disappointed him did he took the Emerald back and instead of giving it back to Gamma did he shatter it to power his phi's. 12) As I mentioned already, I completely disagree with your way of assessing things here as I don't just judge Rush on its own but also as the story continuation of every single canon Sonic game that game before it which is the curse of a ongoing continuity that writers have to take into account what happened in previous stories and if they mess it up make their own story worse doing so. If I were to use your logic than should Sonic Battle not exist at all because Rouge has information she shouldn't have in Shadow's story as she first learned them in her own which happened after Shadow's story's opening. But you don't disregard Battle in its entirely because of this plothole. And so do I threat the entire ongoing story of the canon games. I don't judge these game stories just on their own because they can't stand on their own because they are just mini stories part of the far larger still ongoing Story of the Sonic the hedgehog videogame Franchise continuity. Again, my reason for making this comment is not trying to change your mind or tell you, you are wrong but rather to explain why I disagree with your way of assessing the series. 15) But there is nothing to assume here you just make a baseless assumption that only Knuckles can use the Emerald when nothing in anything outside of the non-canon Sonic X ever made such a claim. With plenty of examples from other non-canon sources be it Archie Comics or Sonic Chronicles clearly showing the opposite to be true. So, Sonic using the Master Emerald in Battle is no contradiction of anything as nothing was ever established that would say he can't. So, I hope I could explain my point of view both understandably and without coming off as an entitled ass. It will certainly be interesting to see how people will react at the implication that Angel Island perhaps did stay grounded after SA1 for quite some time. And yes, I'm also having fun with his conversation.

[@Pariah6950]

@@rynobehnke8289 This is just a disagreement in how we see things. I would love to look at the Sonic series as one large continuity. But there are so many contradictions that I cannot possibly do that. It is not one fleshed-out continuity. It's a giant mess that makes no sense. 06 for example, has to take place after Shadow, right? Wrong. It cannot possibly take place in the same continuity as the rest of the series. Not because of it getting erased, but because of plot points in the game that make all the previous games impossible to occur. For one example, Silver takes the white Emerald from ten years ago to the future, meaning it would have not existed in any previous Sonic game. Same for Battle. It must take place after Shadow, yet that is impossible because of Shadow's characterization. It is impossible for Shadow at the end of his own game to become the Shadow in Battle, at least without some major character shift happening off-screen. And besides contradictions, there are retcons that undermine creative intent, and are just stupid. Eggman Nega in Rivals is the perfect example. He was obviously created to be Eggman's alternate dimension counterpart. But Rivals comes in and says he is Eggman's descendant from the future. Technically you can make up some crap where both can be true. But that is irrelevant to me. His name is goddamn Nega, as in negative, as in the alternative from another universe. Him being from the future was not what his character was meant to be. So he's not. But retconning him to be so basically makes a second Nega that cannot exist simultaneously with the other unless, you want to buy into some dumb explanation. Which I refuse to do because I respect the people who created him and what they wanted him to be. It should be no surprise to you that I don't like long running franchises with multiple writers. I've read some superhero comics, and issue to issue as different writers trade-off, characters can contradict what they said in the very previous issue. Then later another writer tries to duct tape over that with a stupid explanation. Plus, Sonic isn't even a continual story. Each individual game is its own story separate from everything else. Outside of Shadow's amnesia and Chaos, they don't ever really have story threads that are set up in one game to be followed up in another. Almost every game is a complete story with its own beginning and ending. So it harms little to separate the stories into their own continuities. If you insist on looking at the series as one whole, you do you. But I cannot agree with that.

[@Buhhhdy]

13:14 1-I've missed a long story analysis from you dude and 2-I'd like to think that the holy summit place could be a warp pad place to get to angel island and that knuckles was just there instead because yeah I got nothing if anyone else is willing to finish my theory I'd gladly love to hear from them

[@qstmrk8004]

gotta love shadows smile in the end credits

[@K-C-D-A]

About Chaos... Here me out. Chaos is slow AF, and even in Sonic Battle, Chaos doesn't really do anything. Chaos could have woken up during Shadow The Hedgehog, but how would they catch up to the action? Plus, it was a global conflict, Chaos could have been some doing good work, but just in a spot that wasn't important enough to be seen in game. The lack of being shown, doesn't inherently mean they didn't act during a crisis. As for "wait people live here now?" I personally just see most of it as vacation homes. Tails being a genius, should definitely have a stable enough income to own multiple homes (let alone multiple labs.) Knuckles is literally just squatting in some Ruins, trying to adjust more to society after growing up isolated, hence watching TV inside of some Ruins (presumably these are ancient Echidna tribe ruins so Knuckles has a taste of home? The tribe didn't live exclusively on Angel Island after all. Guarding the Master Emerald can't be a full time job right? Maybe he moved away from come to connect to society a little and do some soul searching?) Amy... I mean, she's living in an apartment. "Tails and Rouge have a place nearby, Sonic couch surfs at Tails' sometimes, and the rents cheap" might be a good enough excuse for Amy to settle down there. Urbanites aren't exactly known for never moving their homes. As for Cream, maybe the game takes place during summer vacation, thus vacationing in Amy's apartment? Or maybe just having real good timing on those day trips to Amy's? Hell, Cream could be homeschooled for all we know. (And god only knows how broken the Sonic Universe's education system could be. If it's anything like what the USA uses then dear god... Uh, Neil Cicierega talks a bit about his experience growing up homeschooled in the US during his XOXO Festival talk during 2016, good insight, sorry for the tangent.) Anyway, Cream with some luck can be explained away as just visiting a friend most of the time. We know Shadow was couch surfing with Rouge during most of the game, and honestly? Easily before the game starts as well, especially if Sonic Battle takes place after Sonic Heroes... Sonic as previously speculated, is most likely couch surfing with Tails, and maybe even Knuckles. Less traveling the world these days, possibly because he's taking it easy, trying out being in mostly one spot? For why Chaos is there?... Idk man, maybe they have a habit of hibernating in massive craters, ever since SA1? Sleeping in the Master Emerald is now off limits or something? (There's no real reason for Chaos to be there outside of sheer luck, and they aren't remotely important to the plot. So... They might as well be written off?)

[@Pariah6950]

We could say that Chaos was doing something during Shadow and we just never see it. But that's just not how storytelling works. You could also say there's a threat of nuclear war happening in Toy Story and we just never see it. If something is not presented to us in the story, then it is not part of the story.

[@K-C-D-A]

@@Pariah6950 Fair, but at the same time, if every plot point from previous entries was at least mentioned for every sequel, it'd be damn hard to make any kind of sequel... Like, imagine if an early Sherlock Holmes villain gets imprisoned, and every following book had to mention "X villain is still in jail" or "X villain finally died in prison." Characters serve their role, and then go into the background, if the resurface great, but if their resurfacing would go against the grain of the plot, it's better to not have them resurface then and there. Using D.C. as an example, you don't need to break the pace every two minutes to say, "Oh, Aquaman would be perfect in this scenario, but he's on Mars currently" or some BS. Just because Superman crosses over with Batman frequently, doesn't mean that every Batman story that could easily be solved by Superman, should have Superman doing it instead. How did everyone get to their current homes in Sonic Battle? Who cares, the story starts in medias res. (I just tried to give logical explanations / guesses based on the info provided.)

[@Pariah6950]

@@K-C-D-A Funny you use Sherlock Holmes as an example. Because I would use that as an example of nearly the exact opposite. Most Sherlock Holmes stories are self-contained one-offs. Because of that, the series barely has any continuity at all. You could rearrange the order of almost every Sherlock story, and it would change nothing. So in that case, canon, whether it's there or not, is irrelevant. There pretty much is no canon. The issue with Sonic is that it does self contained one-offs and continual continuity at the same time. Creating some Frankenstein canon that makes no sense.

[@K-C-D-A]

@@Pariah6950 Yes.

[@ObaREX]

You pump these videos out so fast

[@LuckyPotatoKat]

Look at all those Eggmans robots...