Part 1 First Performance Mods and Build of Harbor Freight 224cc Predator Engine, 224 Parts & Numbers

[@TLMD]

Wow, I think that is a first for me brother! Thanks for the shout out. I would be happy to take on this case if need be......lol Great video and keep up the awesome work.

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

I know who to call for sure! Anytime my friend, love your work and your channel.

[@edgeofdarkness6132]

Pulled the governor on a friend's brand new 224 last night. He's going to build it up eventually but today it's going on the bike, it's getting a carb, and we're removing the Coleman jackshaft. The other bike banged out a nice 56mph yesterday with just clutch to wheel setup, and a 196cc with a carb mod and no governor. Excited to see what the 224 does with the same mods

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

Austin I think you'll love it! I love my 224!

[@frederickwoods5943]

Really impressed with the crankcase on this Ducar. My "224cc" built with a Tillotson case, 72mm piston and the 55mm crank is 223.93cc. The Harbor Freight "224" is 223.21cc and with the 58mm crank, that should be a torquer. Thanks for the wrist pin info in the video, looking forward to part two and beyond 😀

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

Thanks Fred, it's loads of fun trying to match up the correct parts for this thing. Hopefully we'll know for sure when the "2nd" new rod arrives!

[@darryllawrence2530]

Thanks!

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

Darryl you're too kind! Thanks for your support!

[@Obamabruh]

Can't wait to get my hands on one of these!

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

I'll be glad to get my parts in! I wish there was someplace local I just pop in and purchase everything I needed.

[@darryllawrence2530]

​@@KentuckyFriedFixesit's crazy. You'd have to go to GA., Tenn., and/or NC to physically be in one of these part stores. Anyhow, thank you for posting your tutorials. I've been watching videos on high performance 224 Predator motors and I was going to go with a longer skirt 70mm but you're previous video on weight comparison helped me into deciding that a lighter piston is better.

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

@@darryllawrence2530 Hi Darryl! That Wildcat flat top is a great piston for the money! I love those things! Thanks Buddy!

[@PullerbearEd]

That really looks like its going to be a nice running engine.

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

The 224 engine really woke up in a good mood! Thanks Ed!

[@igokarts4510]

Love it! Thanks for the great info!

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

Thank you! I appreciate the support.

[@johnny5.090]

Hello I’m looking on EC carburetors for these parts for my 224. When you buy a Ec rod do they include the rod bolts and rod bearings? It doesn’t say.

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

Hi Johnny! When I purchased my parts there the billet rod included the bearing halves and bolts. As a rule I always purchase an extra set of rod bearings too. EC's website is sometimes a little lacking on the info, just call them if you have a question. They're a great company to work with. Everyone I've spoken with has been knowledgeable on engine builds and specific parts questions. It's nice to speak with guys that know the language.

[@Big_Johns]

Nice video KFF, keep'm coming brother. Hey if you tell LMD you have a box full of glazed he'll come lights and siren. 🤣👍

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

Thank you John.

[@Big_Johns]

Anytime bud 👍🏼

[@taylorburgio2978]

Do you think an original Coleman 196cc engine flywheel would fit on there?

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

Hi Taylor, the taper should be the same as the original 196cc clone engine. Should fit no problem.

[@Deans64]

are the fly wheel come apart because people drop them and hit them with hammer and put back on or do they suck

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

Hi Kevin! The cast iron flywheels suck.

[@curtisyastic4130]

Will a starter kit for the 212 for on these new motors?

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

Hi Curtis, the only issue I can see is that you'd have to get a flywheel with ring gear that fits the Honda clone taper. The old Predator crankshaft taper is different from the new 224. Now the 224 has a standard clone taper to accept clone flywheels. You'd probably need to purchase an electric start kit for a Tillotson engine. I've not done it but I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work.

[@curtisyastic4130]

@@KentuckyFriedFixes I use my motor with a small fan blade to push my flounder boat and it runs an alternator for my lights, when my lights are on my engine will only run at just above idle. With the lights off it will run at idle. What coyld I do too get a little more low speed torque? That's the only reason I'm considering the 224 to begin with. I have put around 2000 hours on a 212

[@randyhertzberg7549]

great vid , you are one of the first who are showing the 224 up close . just wondering ...where in Kentucky are you ? (wanting to get O U T of ILLINOIS) and was considering Kentucky.

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

Thanks Randy. Central Kentucky Mammoth Cave area here!

[@jamest.5001]

I'd like to modify one of those, to fit a 4 valve motorcycle head, overhead cam, probably have to cut the head alot to get the compressions high enough, with the flat or dished piston, but the ability to weld aluminum will make the swap possible, maybe run a CDI, and tiny flywheel, with fan to help cool, and run a timing belt on the front, welding required, it definitely wouldn't be worth having it done, but if you could do it yourself, it could possibly make 12-15 hp maybe more!

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

Hi James, I like the way you think. I don't know why someone has not put an overhead cam head on top of one of these rascals. There's tons of room and if the chain routing was the main issue almost everything runs an external timing belt now.... I have time to play with these engines again, unfortunately I don't have any machine equipment, looking for a good used mill and lathe though... Thanks!

[@madness_-yg3lw]

Oh man i cant wait for my parts to get here i believe iv order the right parts but over all im shooting for as mush power as the 224 crank can handle as that is gonna be the only thing im not replacing in this block but i will be having it balanced goal is 10k+ for rpms running on a big valve head

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

Hi Spencer, yes getting the right parts is turning out to be a difficult task. The first rod was way too short and I've ordered a different rod from EC, that's "supposed" to work. At least it does "work" with their Wildcat 58mm stroke crank engines. But we'll see when it arrives. At this point it's like trying to match up parts for a completely new engine design. I'm having fun though!

[@lsxjunkie]

Ever done a high compression E85 build?

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

I'm working on one now. With the price of gasoline as high as it is and the price of the normal fuel "additives" I use has doubled, E-85 is a logical choice. (As long as we use a $15 "disposable" carburetor that is.) Thanks!

[@lsxjunkie]

@@KentuckyFriedFixes I'd love to know what carb and jets you use on a build like the HC 224 you are doing. I'm ordering f the same EC rod and 70mm flat top piston and .045 HG you are using. And the 265 cam. But was wanting to use E85 since it's what I run in my Race cars as well.

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

I'm working on the E-85 build now as time permits. (Too many projects going at the same time LOL.) I'll probably go with one of the cheaper carbs as it will likely be a throw away after the E-85 eats it up on the inside. I'll share the carb info and the jetting I go with for the E-85 as soon as I have the combination worked out. Thanks!

[@christiantaylor6867]

What's that charcoal canister thing for??...the 212cc doesn't have it.

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

Hi Christian, it's an emissions item. It's just a small charcoal canister that collects vapor from the fuel tank and pipes it back into the engine via the air cleaner. The theory is that it will help keep the air clean from evil gasoline vapor. It's a little over the top for a small engine IMO, but I can see some good things coming out of that little canister with a little work though......Thanks!

[@dominicolson3574]

Would that new head gasket work on a stock 224?

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

Hi Dominic, I wouldn't use a .010 gasket on a stock 224. My original plan was to have the piston about .015 down the hole and use the .010 gasket to have a .025 quench. That didn't work out as the first rod I tried was wrong so I had to change my plan a bit. You could run a .030 to .035 head gasket with the stock 224 engine though and it'd work fine.

[@liquescustom1881]

Hi, I did not see any comment about it, so I will ask. Can you use all these parts for a 212cc ?

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

Hi Lique's Custom, welcome. The 224 is mostly Honda clone parts inside including the flywheel taper on the crank. The camshaft and crank diameters will interchange with any Honda clone. The 212 has a larger camshaft diameter and a larger crankshaft rod journal diameter, so those are very different. The 224 does share the same wrist pin diameter with the 212, it's .715/.716 It's possible to switch out the crankshafts if you run a clone rod and piston in the 212. But the camshaft is a no go. Plenty of good aftermarket cams available for the 212 though. The problem would be cutting the clearance for the crank and rod to clear the 212 block. The 224 block is plenty thick but the 212 not so much.

[@liquescustom1881]

@Kentucky Fried Fixes yes I should have know the crank since I just watch the video.

[@liquescustom1881]

@@KentuckyFriedFixes do you have builds on the 212cc also?

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

@@liquescustom1881 I'm thinking about doing some 212cc performance builds. It seems like there are a few people that like the same stuff I do. Those should be much easier than the 224, lots of parts combos for the 212, not so much yet for the 224.

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

@@liquescustom1881 LOL well it depends on which one you watch too though! It's fine, I like having the comments section available so guys can share a few ideas. I enjoy anything about engines.

[@jakesdronelife6307]

Nice video I’m in Kentucky myself looking at getting one of these can it take all the third party mod parts from arc racing gps etc that a 212 takes ?

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

Hi Jake, happy to subscribe to a fellow Kentuckian! My first try was an ARC rod, my favorite rod for sure, but it was very wrong. The second rod coming is the EC pinnacle rod from EC in Dickson TN. It's "supposed" to work. We'll see!

[@jakesdronelife6307]

@@KentuckyFriedFixes ha old Dickson Tennessee I visited there as a child often as I was born in Clarksville Tennessee but OK I will give that a shot thank you

[@troy22nd]

Didn't you say it was a DUCAR in your 212/224 comparison video??

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

Hi Caleb. Yes it is, DUCAR is raised/casted into the block. You can get a good look at it when I remove the rod cap at 15:51

[@weasel1262]

Can i move over my upgraded parts on my 212 min hemi to the 224?

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

Much of the parts from the hemi will swap over. The rod and piston probably won't though as the 224 has the 58mm stroke crankshaft.

[@I9minibikeride]

I had my 224 built but when I try to start it the pulley snatches rite outta my hand. What did we do wrong??

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

Rule # 1 Don't panic. Just a few things to check and you'll be good to go. Start by check your ignition timing at the flywheel. Adjust ignition timing to match the fuel you're running. If you're running race gas you don't really need much more than 28 degrees BTDC, if you're running Methanol around 32 to 36 degrees BTDC should work fine. Even when the timing is set properly and you have a high octane race fuel, you'll still have the rope pulled from your hands every now and then. It happens. Also double check your valve lash settings to make sure your compression release is working like it should. If you built your engine to the same specs as I used on this build, a working compression release is a must if you're going to pull start. This build has some good compression that requires a good high octane fuel. A race gas at or near 100 octane is required or Methanol fuel is also a better option.

[@thomascamp4966]

This might sound like a dumb question bro but when you’re measuring the pins with the wrist pin what are you measuring for example 709thousands? Thousands of an inch?

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

Hi Thomas! That's a great question! The dial caliper I used in the video is in US standard so it measures to within (.001) one thousandth of an inch. For these OHV clone engines there are mainly three wrist pin diameters, the .709 , .716 are the most common, and if you use a piston originally meant for a flathead Briggs during a super hot long rod clone build, those wrist pins are around .490 diameter

[@thomascamp4966]

@@KentuckyFriedFixes awesome man I’m defiantly going to give you a follow you stay up to date with all comments and always respond with great knowledge. So basically for example when measuring the piston squish you would measure how far it raises up above the deck in thousands of an inch? Why not using 1/16…1/8…or 1/4 why use thousands of an inch? And can you tell me what’s the brand of that caliper tool?

[@thomascamp4966]

Also when measuring the drop down with the stock piston and stock rod I believe in your 2nd video on this how did you do that with the bottom end of your caliper? Don’t think you could measure the drop or raise with a feeler gauge? Or even the clamp measuring sides of the caliper that measure inner diameter and outer diameter of things?

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

Hi Thomas! Some of the engine channels seem to make a video and disregard the comments. More than likely those channels are scripted with little or no knowledge of engine building or tuning. This channel is a bit different as I will actually try to help everybody as best I can whether I have a new video out or not. There are some of the flat head engines where you can get away with having the piston above deck quite a bit but with these clone OHV engines, you're kinda limited because the exhaust valve can contact the piston in some cases. That's why most of the OHV engines are built with the piston below deck a few thousandths of an inch. I purchase most of my mechanical dial calipers from Harbor Freight or the jungle site. There may be a link in the engine tools video. They were around $19.95 but may be higher than that now. I don't like the digital calipers at all and there's no need to buy an expensive set as the cheapies work just fine for what we're doing.

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

You can absolutely use a feeler gauge to measure the amount the piston is above or below the deck. I've done it many times. The dial caliper with the base addition is just much easier and quicker for my preference. I also have a depth mic for serious builds but that one doesn't see daylight very often.

[@rippinrogers]

Do any billet rods fit this engine without grinding metal off of the inside? I have an NR Racing Stage 2 kit and need a billet rod to finish the build on the stock piston. All rods available do not fit without grinding metal as fas as I can tell.

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

I have tried the EC carbs rod and the ARC rod in these engines. Both required grinding of the block for clearance and for the 70mm bore block both were really close to the camshaft even though the camshaft I used was a low profile lobe design with relief cut for extra clearance. I chose the EC rod for this one because it fit the block better and required less material to be removed from the block for clearance. The ARC rod absolutely hit everywhere and it was much too short to run properly in this application with the piston I chose. I've purchased a China billet to try out in the next build but it seems really close to the ARC design. Please let me know if you come up with a different rod that fits without all the block grinding. I'd love to know. The 72mm bore block seems to work much better with these rods.

[@rippinrogers]

@ I ordered a piston and rod combo from studz racing. EC rod. Should need clearancing but I will report back.

[@tylerriddle4627]

Will the Hemi flywheel go on this engine?

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

Tyler I don't have a HF hemi flywheel to try. The clone flywheel fits but you know people say the taper is still different on the HF hemi but they will work. It'll be easy to tell when you lap the flywheel to the crank if it will work or not. I'll be using one of the aftermarket clone aluminum flywheels rated to 8500 RPM as I'm not taking this one over that. The flywheel I'm using is not billet, so max RPM is a consideration when choosing a flywheel of course, but it is a clone flywheel.

[@Deucealive75]

Was hoping you would get an "in the hole" measurement with the stock piston installed.

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

Great point! I should have done that to get an exact measurement on the factory stroke. It was my hope to connect the stock rod to the new flat top piston and measure those two together down the hole. Unfortunately, the rod has the larger pin so I wasn't able to do that. I'm having to rely on "recommendations" and I don't like doing that either. Hopefully the 2nd new rod coming in will be correct this time! The first was way too short. The EC rod is "supposed" to work at the correct height due to the flat top piston design or so I'm told. We'll see when it gets here. Thanks!

[@Deucealive75]

@@KentuckyFriedFixes Yeah i can't recall if I mentioned that in one of your videos. Thing to do is get the flat top piston on a stock clone rod. Measure in the hole with that then order a properly sized common clone billet rod. I would get the clone ARC rod. Wouldn't help though if you didn't have an extra stock clone rod. haha. ARC said their engine had .006" in the hole with the stock piston.

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

@@Deucealive75 I know where you're coming from. The main problem is the longer stroke and different piston pins/pin heights and different rod length on the 224. The rod is not standard length. That's why it's been fun trying to match stuff up for the 58mm stroke crankshaft. Plus, I'm trying to fit a flat top from a 223 Wildcat engine as they have the 58mm stroke cranks too. They changed the piston design a bit to compensate and that's also some fun thrown in. If it had the 55mm stroke crank it'd be much easier. If this thing was a flat head, I have buckets of parts to swap and compare but unfortunately I don't have a large supply of the OHV stuff, so it's measure what I have, order and hope for the best. I'm having fun with this one though, I like it. Thanks!

[@SpACeCruizeR2o3]

which gasket should i use on my ducar wen i take the gov out ? cool ass vid by the way boSS 1oo%

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

I used the standard thickness sidecover gasket with no shims on mine but you'll need to check the amount of endplay on your crankshaft. As long as you don't go under .010 or over .020 or so on your endplay, you'll be good to go.

[@SpACeCruizeR2o3]

@@KentuckyFriedFixes endplay .....oh god im screwwwed lol

[@SpACeCruizeR2o3]

@@KentuckyFriedFixes ill just let it be thanks man

[@SpACeCruizeR2o3]

@@KentuckyFriedFixes i meant the head gasket for more compression no

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

Hi AC! Be careful on the Hemi engines when changing to a thinner head gasket. If yours came with the .050 thick head gasket I wouldn't be afraid to run a .035 or .040. Anything thinner you may want to check to make sure the exhaust valve is not too close to the piston on the exhaust stroke. You can measure how close the exhaust valve is to the piston with some play dough on top of the piston. A good rule of thumb is to try not to go less than .080 distance between exhaust valve and the top of the piston. The only way you can safely mill the head or run something like a .010 thickness head gasket is by cutting some valve reliefs in that piston.

[@rncboy2]

I like the video very detailed. Just a though arc has a tech tool kit for checking carbs they are no go tools and would definitely be helpful for guys wanting to know how much they can take the venture before the tool goes through and becomes a no go carb. Definitely would help in these types of situations just for the average guy looking to see if that carb would be worth swapping to or not. I don't see tracks bringing this engine to otb or spg classes so for that it's gonna sit in the corner like the Tillotson engines unless it's a modified class or 14.5ci class. I don't think this engine will be popular in the racing world but for the average yard kart mini bike guys it will be.

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

I don't have the tools to get at the venturi, I like ARC stuff though. I'll be replacing this carb with a different type on this build. For those building these for kart classes a good set of carb tools/gauges would be a must have for sure. Thanks!

[@rncboy2]

I'm sure if a guy was to call them up they would sell just the carb tech kit. It definitely helps give a idea of what the venturi might be.

[@troy22nd]

Is the 212 hemi head compatible with this mod you're doing?

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

Hi Caleb! For this 224 build the piston is above deck so I wouldn't recommend using a Hemi head with this build combo. Though it is possible to use the Hemi head if you cut some deep valve reliefs in the piston. It'll be a lot more work, you'd have to check the valve to piston distance manually with some clay and likely some deep valve reliefs would be required on the flat top piston. Normally you'd want the piston somewhere around .015 below deck with a hemi build, since this one is averaging almost .010 above deck, when you add those measurements together you'll have around .025 less clearance. That .025 has to be made up for somewhere. If you can cut some valve reliefs deep enough in that piston it should work. (I have not done this build with a Hemi head so I can't verify the piston will accept a deep enough valve relief cut.) You've got me thinking now.....

[@troy22nd]

@@KentuckyFriedFixes so you just slapped that 212 hemi head on a stock 224 then?

[@troy22nd]

@@KentuckyFriedFixes I really want to pump my stock 224 up but I'm a bit of a novice to all this. That's why it's still in a sealed box 😆

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

@@troy22nd Hi Caleb, that's a different 224 engine. The Hemi head swap video was done on a new completely stock 224 that still had the factory stock dished piston. Completely different parts combination than I used in the 224 engine performance build series of videos. This one uses a long billet rod and wildcat 223 flat top piston.

[@troy22nd]

@@KentuckyFriedFixes how well do think it would perform doing just the head swap?

[@soothingsaturations9059]

What type exhaust will you be running?

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

I have a staged header for this one. It's nothing special they're around $40 online. Maybe just a bit noisier than the stock muffler though. :)

[@PumpkinKingXXIII]

I picked up one yesterday and carb no longer says ducar

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

Are they putting the "Ruixing" carbs on now?

[@johnstaley2573]

In my humble opinion I think that you should have run this in some kind of vehicle or mini bike or whatever to get a baseline to ascertain performance gains.

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

Hi John and thanks for the input and I know it's some great advice. I'm mainly interested in just the performance engine builds and figuring out parts combos for them for less $. We will be putting this engine on something for an upcoming video in the works. There's a lot of great channels that already do the performance parts tests and gains and I'm subscribed to most of them too. I do love that stuff but I don't wanna compete against other guys like Black66, so for now I'll just stick to the engine builds. Thanks again I'm sure proud to know you!

[@johnstaley2573]

@@KentuckyFriedFixes thank you for your reply. I guess that I'm the one who was curious what the difference would be. I'm waiting to see how this goes.

[@mr.stonerUDX714]

well this motor has been out for a very long time in my area it a fair motor like the rest of the Predators

[@Core-vu6mc]

There must be two versions!!! Mine has an extra bolt support (but no external bolt) on the bottom right. Look at the Wildcat 223 for comparison. It looks like that. Unlike the actual Wildcat 223 block there is no pass through in the middle of the hump so oil gets trapped on the right side. If you want to get all the oil out you have to use both drain plugs.

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

That is very interesting. It makes me wonder what else may be out there on these. We know they had two different factories building the 212 engines, one producing the hemi engine and the other the non-hemi engine. Wouldn't it be funny if there's a hemi head 224 version.

[@trgriffin88]

So the 224 is a non-hemi engine, but you’re using a hemi cam?

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

Hi Tim, yea the new engine has the clone camshaft diameter of .550 instead of the larger non-hemi Predator type we're used to. The standard clone cams fit now.

[@josephstoots6548]

Sorry I forgot to tell you the wrist pin in the 224 was bigger.I test fit arc +20 rod and it doesn't look too short with predator flat top piston but who knows

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

It's all part of the fun! I think I may have the correct rod now to work with the new flat top piston. Looks promising! In fact it's looking a little better than I'd hoped for. Details out soon. Thanks!

[@WyFoster]

If you try and use that .010 head gasket. You'll find the piston is hitting the head.

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

Depending on the rod/piston combo used and how much pop up or how far down the hole the combo you go with has. I'm working on the correct combination now for this engine and will adjust the gasket thickness to suit my piston/rod combo. Have you tried a .010 gasket on the Predator 224 engine? I've not tried one with the stock dished piston and rod combo because I'm tossing them out for this build, but mine definitely is below the deck on this block. Any input welcome. Thanks Wyatt!

[@WyFoster]

@@KentuckyFriedFixes You need about .030 quench for rod stretch at higher rpm. My 224 was close to zero. I replaced it with an EC 8281 and Wildcat piston. It's now above deck roughly .010. I used the stock gasket to get that .030 quench.

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

@@WyFoster Wyatt I noticed the EC rod with the Wildcat flat top gives a bit of pop up. I was told some are getting .007, I think the stock combo with the dished piston is down the hole but I haven't measured how much, I may do that after I finish the clearance work. .030 is a good number! I like .020 to .025 with a bearing rod but with this soft crank who knows? Thanks for sharing! Every bit of info is always welcome here glad to have you!

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

Wyatt, I eventually did go with a .045 gasket with .008 piston above deck with the EC rod and Wildcat flat top combo in part 3. My original plan was for the ARC rod to put the piston down the hole about .015 and use the .010 gasket. That plan failed and the ARC rod was wayyy short, like .044 down the hole so I removed the .010 gasket from the parts list as you were 100% correct that it would not work for the EC rod combo. The EC rod and Wildcat piston combo seems to be a good one. Thanks again for your input, I appreciate you.

[@pitbikecookracing3324]

👍👊

[@chuckhuff7123]

The trubal with these Chinese engines is that we need to know who makes them. Well there all made in Chin, and all are as cheap as the next. So don't stress it your getting your money worth.😊

[@KentuckyFriedFixes]

It's cheap for an engine for sure! Some brands are better than others but they're all made in China.