Partially Examined Life podcast - Pirsig - Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance

[@larrypierce9189]

Persig says that "Art is anything you can do with quality". I read the book before I started riding motorcycles. It is a work of quality. A work of art.

[@EHT497]

Cool beans

[@gedofgont1006]

And yet, despite your justified reverence, you misspell his name.

[@jamie395]

Interesting cast. Thank you. Such a rich topic. Re the discussion from around 30:00 about the idea of pre-intellectual experience. I believe that what Pirsig is saying is that that the quality of input (whatever it is motorbike ride, view etc) is recognized before we know what it is. And we don't need knowledge to recognise quality. Imagine a person who had never heard any music, never heard a song. They would in Pirsig's idea - which I agree with fully - have the ability to recognise what is beautiful from what is ugly. At least as far as our biology goes - that is as humans we all find smelling flowers a higher quality experience than smelling shit for instance.

[@Itsatz0]

***** To a fertilizer salesman, smelling shit is more rewarding than smelling flowers.

[@maudeeb]

Shit is shit because, as you say, it has low biological Quality. We agree on this because we all share the same biological 'steps'. Reading a book in a unfamiliar language doesn't work because we don't share similar intellectual steps in language as the author. These 'steps' take us to the place we become aware of the Quality; Quality is the act of these 'steps' interacting; no 'steps', no Quality. In a similar way, in not sharing at least some of the same accumulated musical 'language' as the composer, then you may find yourself deaf to the 'Quality'. This is the kind of clarification Pirsig made in 'Lila'.

[@jonno52]

Thanks very much for this, and the link. Grabbed the MP3 & will be listening to it with great interest. I read the book 30 years or more ago, and any commentary on it cannot fail to be of interest. Might end up re-reading the book (probably essential to do so): it's pretty difficult to explain to anyone else what it's about - or even work it out for yourself - but it's utterly compelling.

[@hermanhelmich]

Lila continues where Zen stops. It’s beyond excellent

[@messenjah71]

This is the fundamental question: Is consciousness of a thing also knowledge of the thing? No. Consciousness is dualistic, while knowledge is perfect oneness. Quality, for example, is a judgement and not awareness of an inherent characteristic. I think a point that Persig is making in his book is that there is no so separation in your life. The motorcycle becomes a metaphor for how we deal with this reality. Do we pretend that we are separate and become spectators to our own play, or do we jump in with attentiveness, awareness, and care?

[@maudeeb]

Pirsig would say the 'Quality' comes first, any notion of dualism, second. Quality is that 'oneness' we attempt to ascertain. He would also say 'knowledge' is a secondary intellectual static pattern of that Quality.

[@DarkAngelEU]

@@maudeeb Children have alot of quality. It is only by growing up they are taught to think binary, ie in dualistic terms of vision.

[@maudeeb]

@@DarkAngelEU Too true. Strange how ideas can blind us to what's right under our nose.

[@Strider1Wilco]

The last sentence made sense

[@joshjgraham]

Did anyone notice the funny coincidence that Phaedrus was Plato’s dialogue about whether it’s a better idea to just pay for sex, and that the character “Lila” with whom he spends time floating down a river in his other book was a former prostitute.

[@JeanCharlesEvrard]

You are the brightest people I have ever encountered

[@Artcarnie]

Wish people would talk more about Lilia.

[@aahhrrgg]

That's 'Lila'.

[@totaltotalmonkey]

They have a series of notes on Lila partiallyexaminedlife.com/2012/02/04/lila-notes-pt-1-on-the-legitimacy-of-skimming-the-narrative-bits/

[@maudeeb]

Different animals, 'Lila' is a reformist doctrine aimed at academia, an audience he regretted not reaching with 'Zen'. Likewise, the cold alter-ego, the relentlessly applied structure, and raw technicality of Lila was unlikely to appeal to an audience enchanted by the meanderings and rich personality found in 'Zen'. That being said, If you've ever wondered what intellectual congruity might look or feel like, give 'Lila' a read or two.

[@aqualityexistence4842]

I am attempting to on my channel, although I am not a philosophy student and it kind of shows. But I'm working on it.

[@hermanhelmich]

Me too. My personal bible. So deep and insightful

[@ramoshka6]

the text read from the book at 25:23 sounds very similar to something J. .Krishnamurti would say

[@MrFlamingPuppet]

Why is this new Tao valuable in real life? Because many times, problems persist because we don't realize we are NOT perceiving "reality": we are perceiving a decent-enough quality relationship, a set of definitions of the situation's elements that "gets us through the night", albeit not as smoothly as we might like, merely because they were the last definitions that convinced us. Pirsig gives a laundry list of new processes this understanding suggests, in an entire chapter on strategy, applicable to any jam.

[@nativepangea]

Near the Continental Divide the statement "Mechanics are Skeptics" came out, I had a feeling that attachments and ownership and mastery start to change hands a few times.

[@smitty2868]

I did, in fact I bought the hard cover version, read it once and due to my divorce lost track of the book when "divy-ing" up the goods. If I live long enough I will certainly read it again but I have so many books queued up it will be some time. I enjoyed it but ZAMM became the elephant in my consciousness so it's impact was not as great. Overall Pirsig has had a great deal of influence on my thinking. As an aside have you read any Castenada, Redford, or Kesey?

[@totaltotalmonkey]

POTENTIAL SPOILER whoa, you have just made me realise that Pirsig's son realising his dad was not being true to himself is a metaphor for the the perception of something being low Quality without being able to explain it.

[@DarkAngelEU]

But in a way that is true. If we don't like our meals, it is because we think it could have been better (ie more ideal, closer to a desired truth) than it was. And so it goes for everything. If we are satisfied, it has good quality. If it doesn't, we are disappointed because the disappointment can feel like a lie. If we learn WHY we got disappointed and that there are ways to fix it - we might be more forgiving and perhaps even share this knowledge so everyone can enjoy this truthfulness. You could easily apply this way of thinking to meat lovers and how to convince them to have vegetarian dishes.

[@smitty2868]

You probably right, I obviously couldn't have done better with one reading, then having to capsulize on a short podcast. My bad. In my defense though I often see the "trivialization" of some literature because the critics don't get the message, or belittle the work because of it's lack of popularity or a dozen other reasons I could list. ZAMM was difficult reading for me but once "plugged in", a constant pleasure and a great learning experience. Thanks for your insight. peace

[@MrFlamingPuppet]

In ZEN, "Quality" is the source of all subjects and objects: before there is "I" and "this peach", there is Quality, which we would conventionally call a "subjective" point of view--the leading edge of unnamed experience, which is continuous. The subject only comes into being with a word, which in turn has emerged from the Quality experience. Your past experiences will color how you name the elements of that reality, and with every similar interpretation, your bias feels more confirmed. Of course, the way that you arrange your box cars of prior interpretations will affect how your subjects and objects manifest. To me, Quality is what some would call the "real world", a phrase I avoid, since the acolytes of Scientism (also spoken on by Pirsig) try to claim hegemony over the "real". The fact is, both "romantic" and "rationalist" camps can glean Quality relationships for the person involved--but both camps should remember that even though both their sets of understandings have value, neither set is Fundamentally True. I say, stock your boxcars eclectically, and stay loose when you snap into a given Quality relationship. It could be like a train, but it might ride like a surfboard.

[@alex-thangnguyen2746]

I have studied a lot and have a lot of education. I can see right through Persig's workd and he basically is in search for the quality of life and even if he has a dual personality who fluctuates between happiness and content for others; he is searching for happiness in life but the quality issue is pushing him on this trip to find quality of life or in life. I think Zen saved him sanity but religion has defined what he struggles as his enemies. At the end of his journey he comes to some form of conclusion; we live in a system that has to be fixed constantly, flawed and he took it too seriously but motorcycle mechanics and the details of such is so scientific it makes him preferential to find quality in life. I cannot say he became angry and created some fake posture to display to others so he could hide what is compelling him to find quality in life. In Greek culture, the Gods rule all of life and they are at the mercy of the Gods; however, there was dissent in the Congress and consent in what the Greeks are famous for, democratic rule!!! He observes something in Asian philosophy and I think he is exploring it, not figuring it out or too understanding of his work; you can feel the tension of his thinking and the science he puts into motorcycle mechanics. Persig's book is about the truth and the search for quality in life.

[@kimmurphy2119]

A thought on Quality, after listening to the podcast... To decide what has high Quality depends on your experiences before you encounter it. At first focus on any thing, person, event in our lives, all we have is prior knowledge. As we develop a relationship, we have a stream of new information that shifts the sand to the judgement of higher or lower Quality. The Quality level of a shiny new socket slowly increases, the longer it functions well, but falls dramatically if it strips the head of a bolt, or breaks. The next shiny new socket, of the same brand, starts much lower on our expectation of Quality - and even if it works perfectly for 50 years, still is weighed down by the performance of it's predecessor.

[@eplimish]

Q1. How is it that a mechanism composed of your definition of matter can perceive "quality" (in the MOQ sense)? (or what confugurations of matter allow the perception of quality? - more or less the same question). Q2. Does your lack of confusion result from a perception of truth which you have failed to give any easily validatable hyperlinks to, or does it result from your failure to ask sufficently exacting questions (or "differentiations"?)? Q3. Have you thought about Many Worlds Hypoth?

[@Jester123ish]

I think you have to discover ZAMM out of your own inquiry to get the full significance. These guys seemed to dissect it and compare expertly enough but I guess professionally they are a bit removed from it.

[@iriekaya]

lol, id never heard of this podcast, no idea how i landed here but thx for putting it up. personally i think any philosopher has a tendency to be condescending, they usually telling you your view is rubbish lol....im looking foward to the other hours of condescending discussion ;o) thx again shino :o)

[@midsmack]

By the time he's in Bozeman "he's forgotten about all that stuff." Seriously? Anyone who has ever truly wondered about the nature of the universe, about the "why" or the "lack of why" that's beneath all experience, will tell you - you NEVER forget those questions. They are questions that, once asked, scratch at the door of your soul for the rest of one's life. Perhaps you have an enlightenment experience and come away at peace with (no answer to) those questions, or perhaps you never arrive at any sort of conclusion in your lifetime. An enlightened person sees beauty and perfection in both outcomes (not that I'm one). But please don't say he'd essentially "moved on." Because those questions, once asked, never go away.

[@totaltotalmonkey]

The questions didn't go away, but he stopped asking them. He had lost his mind and gone through electro shock therapy. Conscious can lead to internal turmoil. This can be met by zombifying ones self and pushing away the conscious, or by accepting the challenge and becoming more conscious. We have no reason to believe Pirsig was lying when he wrote he had packed away the questions and was just presenting a normal persona to the world (and to himself).

[@khaledyasser8293]

That's what it says in the novel though lol

[@MrFlamingPuppet]

The reason Pirsig bothered with this "holy trinity" was a way to get around the Cartesian dualism his professors were locked in, as evidence by such questions as "is Quality inherent in an object, or is it merely the value judgment of of a subject?" (Pirsig makes the point that this paradox is inherent in Dualism, which has been struggling with it from the start) His inability to put Quality properly in either place, pulled him toward the idea of a prior third element. What drove him nuts, at least in the book, was his sudden connection his rationally-arrived-at monism to what he instantly saw as the mystic forerunner of his concept: the Tao.

[@LanNguyen-hi4qs]

Is this the entire discussion?

[@Jester123ish]

Did you read Lila as well?

[@dennisrlecker6650]

Regarding "intellectual" or "pre-intellectual," Pirsig OBVIOUSLY meant pre-intellectual in that he averred in a speech that the recognition of "quality/value" exists as the actual foundation of all being at all levels of being, i.e. at the quantum level. Such is why Weinberg argued that when you claim you understand quantum physics, you know nothing of quantum physics. Thus, the arbitrary behavior of elementary particles is undefinable because even AT THE MOST BASIC LEVEL OF MATERIAL EXISTENCE, matter/spirit moves to quality.

[@smitty2868]

I can only echo @jonno52's eloquent comments, albeit I have read ZAMM completely maybe 7-8 times and re-read sections on countless instances.. As far as the podcast goes I think both commentators missed the density of the concepts Robert presented. peace

[@mlnyonasi]

interesting discussion

[@Jester123ish]

No, I haven't. Any good?

[@coweatsman]

I get the impression that Prisig's 170 IQ is more than these 2 biographers of his life combined. 2 dwarves discussing the merits of a giant.

[@gedofgont1006]

Who's Prisig?

[@coweatsman]

@@gedofgont1006 He's the guy, an academic who also wrote technical manuals, and who wrote "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance". A strange and different book about a road trip on a motor bike in which he outlines his philosophy of knowledge.

[@gedofgont1006]

@@coweatsman Are you dyslexic, or just unobservant?

[@mariellemademoiselle7303]

The boy is symbolic language the psyche use to express complex experiences. This language is not a conceptual like our words, Jung talk about symbolism in the psyche, our cultures, creative art. In our society, the symbolic language is often interpreted as a conceptual communication. This distorted interpretation of symbolic expression to conceptual, makes a lot of people stigmatized to "insane" when they express themself.

[@skylerhardwick4809]

so did they actually die in a motorcycle accident or no?

[@ganeshaa23]

No, but he literally just died though.

[@misterk4580]

His son (Chris) was killed in a mugging outside a Zen center in San Francisco in 1979. Sad but true.

[@Mookiebetz]

You ever heard of a spoiler, idiot?

[@misterk4580]

Nothing to do with the book, jerk-off.

[@jozefibarr1601]

great podcast! i have been meaning to read this book so now I think I will. I kinda disagree with you min 30. i think that when he says that you can appreciate great writing before knowing grammar. i think we have an innate conception of beauty. if I were to read a great line of poetry (robert frost) i think without knowing any thing about it beforehand I think we would all feel the same way--that which the authors wants us to feel. i think that your comment about the motorcycle is not appropriate to this. feeling the joy of riding a motorcycle is an extenal experience. and you need to first master the machine. the arts: poetry, photography, music, painting: to be able to appreciate them comes from within and anyone with a soul can appreciate them just the same.

[@yazanasad7811]

Applying these ideas day to day in his job Can be attuned to technology as a natural way of things Appreciation of mechanics Excellence/quality - the writing comes before the standard/criterion. Is it pre-intellectual though? You have to understand it's a language/an essay which is intellectual (I don't think that's what he means, it's more conscious (ah yeah linguistic/thinking) when I think of intellectual) Language doesn't map onto essences in the world. Abstractions are pale to the real experiences

[@Thomasw540]

ZAMM is epistemological in nature. I identify totally with Phaedrus, who is probably an ISTP/SP. I am an ESTP/SP. The Myers-Briggs Type Inventory/Keirsey Temperament is a direct result of Kant’s Categorical Imperative by way of Karl Jung and reflects the cognitive organization of the individual psyche relative the processing of data in the creation of information. SP’s are organized existentially while SJ/NF/NT’s are organized by internal values. The American academe has an intellectual bias for the SJ/NF/NT majority to the disadvantage of the SP. There are less than 3% of the people in higher education who are SP natives. This is the source of the issue of Phaesrus at the University of Chicago, the inherent Fascism of the Great Books premise. At the back of the book are two diagrams, the big one represents the epistemology of the SF/NF/NT majority and the smaller one the epistemology of the SP (and, for what ever it is worth, Kant. Just for the record, Reason and Thinking are equivalent functions and Passion and Feeling, likewise). In 1968, the year a couple of you were born, I was an ROTC cadet at Indiana University. One of my classmates was one of the big swinging dicks of the SDS and was voted Student Body President our senior year (1969). He and I got along just fine. I went to Vietnam. The thing is that the Army is Hegelian in aspect and the epistemology of the Army Ranger School, which I completed and was an instructor in the department, is based on the smaller diagram at the back of ZAMM. Combat is a very existential sort of enterprise and, in terms of training, the SP cognitive organization is the universal denominator. The alienation of combat veterans, as measured by suicide, homelessness and PTSD, is the result of leaving the epistemology of Phaedrus and trying to adjust to the Fascism of the dominant SJ/NF/NT coalition. It is not insignificant that the Chautaugquas, the method of his inquiry into values, is an Aristotilean dichotomy, the tensions between the Classic frame of reference and the Romantic frame of reference. Aristotle was at the core of the intellectual evil Phaedrus tracked to its lair in the classroom with the table with the crack. You are familiar with the Parable of the Cave. Consider the Academe as being the cave, with the NTs and NFs chained into their chairs, debating the meaning of the shadows being cast on the wall in front of them from the clay figures being passed in front of the fire by the SJs. And if one breaks free and works his or her way to the mouth of the Cave and his eyes adjust to the blinding sunlight, he or she will find the SPs playing Coed Naked Volley Ball in the sand by the sea shore. Phaedrus went crazy trying to outflank the whole of western education. Kurt Lewin, a combat veteran from WWI, attempted a similar flanking movement against the Aristotelian traditions of Cornell with The Dynamics of the Personality. He describes the source of this same alienation of epistemology in Kriegslandschaft. As I say, I identify totally with Phaedrus. I wouldn’t have missed Vietnam for the world, but coming home has been a bitch. When I get there. I’ll tell you.

[@Deliquescentinsight]

I am an INTP and I totally rejected academia from the very start-I always sought my own account and I naturally adjust to epistemology because it is how I innately view the world-you tell me that is a 'scientific fact' well how do you know what you know? Politics has too often more to do with education than the quest for learning. ZAMM I liked enormously but 'Lila' was more to my taste-I operate on the metaphysics of Quality and it can show us the value of choices - this is certainly more like it. (Liked your account by the way).

[@dewainet543]

Thanks for spoiling the ending of the book. I am so angry I turned this on. SMH

[@totaltotalmonkey]

Right, there was absolutely no need to give away a major plot point in the first few moments and without any warning.

[@khaledyasser8293]

They gave a warning

[@In3xorable]

It's a podcast on the content of the book. You can't be serious.

[@thedojoclub]

@@In3xorable too funny

[@BrendonChurch]

You misunderstand and insult a masterpiece.

[@MikeMastropierro]

Brendon Church would you care to explain? Not saying I agree or disagree. Just curious.

[@aqualityexistence4842]

This work is so rich, it is very easy to have numerous ways to interpret it. Between this and Lila, I liken it to the Bible.

[@vuotopiuscuro]

humanities lol

[@DarkAngelEU]

You know what Lana del Rey has to say about all this? Nothing. Just take off all your clothes.

[@smitty2868]

The prose sucks, the story far-fetched but: "coincidence vs omen", (implied) Castaneda's signposts is interesting "controlled drama" vs (implied) Hubbard's theory of "engrams" ditto His specifics on child-parent relationship IMO are very good. Ken Kesey of "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" a wonderful book and movie.. I have read any other book of his That being said I am firmly convinced that Robert had it right, nothing philosophical about it, we DO create the world we live in.