Zen & the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, Book Club with Jonathan Rowson

[@befast1973-g2f]

I have read this book a dozen times over my 74. Years. I finally had to give it away to my younger brother. I'll probably get a new copy soon. I love working with my hands -- carpentry, bicycle and basic auto mechanics ... and I am a songwriter, singer, guitarist.

[@mitchfitz4259]

Very insightful. I'm reading this book for the 5th time since the 70s.

[@aqualityexistence4842]

I love it! Thanks to Mr. Rowson and RW for highlighting this book! Happy to see Pirsig surfacing again. He's an absolutely necessary voice for our times. Been learning his MoQ for a few years on my channel. I'll do a commentary on this in the next couple of days. Like other commentators, I encourage Lila - An Inquiry into Morals as well.

[@wesmcguinness5643]

Totally agree on a necessary voice for our times. I'm keen to see the average person on the street discussing the MoQ. Nick Summerhayes NZ

[@ssevkin]

@@wesmcguinness5643 me too

[@abbiewessels7372]

Yes yes yes! My favorite book, very influential in my life. I've recommended it to many people, but none of them seemed to connect with it very deeply. It's not for everyone, but I would think most RW viewers would enjoy it.

[@thinkwhileeatingpasta5217]

Love the cat!

[@swapticsounds]

have you read his second book? It is great too, and Pirsig himself said it is the more important philosophical contribution of the two. I love both books.

[@evanhadkins5532]

I can't convey how much I love this book.

[@bonniesnowqueen7321]

Pirsig's insights were "hard earned and beautifully shared". Well put and very true.

[@seriousoldman8997]

Looking at you posh boys, I've always explained to people I know ( non academics mercifully) how i changed from a lost early seventies hippie office-worker to a builders labourer, trained carpenter,musician, light engineer and instrument-maker and technician, all because of this book. P.S. No Sevilla King?

[@blairmacewancrosbie8646]

Through the 'miracle' of technology I was able to watch this wonderful video. Thank you so much everyone involved in it. I first read ZAMM in 1981 and, like so many, it changed how i think and how I perceive the world. it was an epiphany to the extent that I think of my life in pre-ZAMM and post-ZAMM terms. i have reread it many times and everytime I 'see' and learn something new. it is, without doubt, one of the greatest and most important books ever written. Thank god for Robert.M. Pirsig.

[@brycecarlisle5749]

This is so good. Thank you for this conversation. I miss Rebel Wisdom!

[@ernestbuckley8671]

ZAMM is the most read book of my life. I read it almost every year and find a new and deeper understanding of it each time. This book is life-changing in that I find myself influenced by it daily and constantly asking myself, is this best? Is this quality? I don't know any other book that has brought so much awareness to my life as ZAMM. In my opinion, its a must read for everyone but it may take several attempts to understand it and thats actually a good thing.

[@jasongravely7217]

Just finished this, onto Lila, and am so grateful to have this video to learn more. I’ve been telling all my friends they would love this book, and now I feel like I have a group of friends to discuss these very interesting topics.

[@thomassimmons1950]

"Good is a noun." BRILLIANT!

[@EcologicalEconomi]

and love is a verb..

[@EnemyOfEldar]

In the midst of those dulcet tones, Jonathan is as deep as an ocean.

[@PresentFocus]

The part if the story that has had the most enduring impact on me, who discovered "Zen" in my forties, is where Persig says in effect, "If a bolt is stuck, it is not the problem, your relationship with the circumstances, of which the bolt is a part, is the problem." As soon as one brings relationship into the discussion, even with the inanimate, first-person representation or internal sense or consciousness, comes into play. The problem Persig wrestles with is the lack in integration between internal and external representations.

[@Glisten45]

My Buddhist father recommended this book to me years ago. Never got around to reading it. Look forward to the video!

[@StationGarageSt]

my most read most loved book ever

[@festivus09]

What a welcome and deep breath of fresh intellectual air - find myself getting “unstuck” by this - thank you Rebel Wisdom and rest in peace Bob Pirsig

[@pamelajoy6037]

Thank-you for this. This book was assigned in the first program I did for psychotherapy and the healing arts. I acquired it but never got to reading it. I always have meant to and perhaps I will once again pick it up. From this discussion I understand why the teachers in my first program suggested it. Mindfulness, compassion & understanding. What the world needs now,

[@TheDalaiLamaCon]

Read this 30yrs ago. I am about to discover, after all these years whether I actually read it. Will let you know. I was reading a lot of Buddhist poetry and literature in my teens, including Zen. Funnily enough this led me to read Persig, which seemed to cement the abstract to the tangible for me. Thanks for the review, brought back interesting memories.

[@krzysztofciesielski1934]

Very good quality, and decent level of gumption :) Thanks :)

[@tjeerdvandermeulen5651]

Jonathan Rowson demonstrates a deep understanding of the book and of Pirsig, in my opinion. I say that, because so much of what she says matches with what I have learned after reading the book ten times (or so...).

[@PresentFocus]

A brilliant engineering friend from my startup days in Silicon Valley told me that "Zen" taught her everything she knew about debug. I bought the book, which marked the beginning of my journey into philosophy.

[@evanhadkins5532]

A good read to get into the details of how quality is experienced is the second half of Perls, Hefferline and Goodman's Gestalt Therapy. They call it 'good contact'.

[@thephilosophicalagnostic2177]

Robert Pirsig was a Minnesotan. He and his son started the journey riding northwest just outside the Twin Cities on Minnesota state highway 10, a highway I've driven on a large number of times. They were heading out to Colorado to stay with friends. BTW, his father was the dean of the University of Minnesota law school. My father was one of his students in the early 50s when my older brother and I were babies.

[@danmar007]

One of the great books everyone should read.

[@vladanlausevic1733]

Nice to listen to you again Jonathan :)

[@TruJesus]

Really enjoyed this conversation. I like the guest. Inspired me to pick the book up again!

[@udo9999]

Thank you for that video!

[@thesecondlawandthetowerhou6026]

As an educator, it is my sense that the younger the child the better the aesthetic judgment.

[@PresentFocus]

Around 14:20, the quote from the book is a decent description of the moment of enlightenment and the unimaginable expansivness of the moment

[@Rwecosher]

Haven't watched the video yet. I shall go to the living room and ping it to the TV. But before i do, i'll just comment that i was bought this book on my 21st. I read it whilst at sea a year later. It seemed good. i re-read it 13 years later and it hit me square in the face as being about all the shit i feel is right in front of me all the time that barely anybody i spend time with sees....and, therefore, why i'm always at odds. Is it indulgent to say, "there! It's you lot, not me!"?

[@swapticsounds]

Everybody who loved this book should also read the following one: "Lila - An Inquiry into Morals" It was less successful but I guess it was just ahead of its time or generally a bit heavier. -"Zen" is about going from duality to nonduality, to understand quality, "good" in a nondual sense. -Deconstruction of the static subject/object model, - only the dynamic principle remains - ◯ (Ensō) - "Lila" is about going back from nonduality into duality, to understand morals, "good and bad" in a dual sense. - Reconstruction/transformation of a static model, the Metaphysics of Quality. - dynamic quality and static quality replace subject /object as the first subdivision of reality. - ☯ (Yin-Yang)

[@aqualityexistence4842]

30.40 Gumption traps...if you want to jump ahead and get something out of this book that you can use right now, the Gumption Chautauqua in chapter 26 is helpful life advice

[@evanhadkins5532]

The anniversary edition also has two different typefaces to distinguish the different voices in the book, which is helpful.

[@TheChessPatzer]

The Redford connection is in Lila!! Pirsig describes the meeting in a hotel room. The Antarctic ozone hole and the impact of CFCs were widely discussed in the early 1970s, so the idea of global climate breakdown was not entirely unknown at that time.

[@ShannonBoschy]

Time to read this again. A girlfriend long ago inherited my highlighted and dog-eared first copy. Came upon a first edition twenty years ago, couldn't get the owner to part with it. Gave my second copy, highlighted and dog-eared to my son when he left home. He maintains a motorcycle. My favorite part of the book is when he speaks of the "Real University." It's especially an important idea in the culture-war climate today

[@afterthesmash]

10:00 Maybe I know too much about how things work under the hood. The flip side is that the more you understand how things actually, generally the more you hate how they are designed to function. It used to be that computers were good for getting serious work done, but these days they are mainly optimized for swiping left and swiping right.

[@RK-ti2qq]

Pirsig's follow up to "Zen...", titled "Lila", is a must read as well.

[@RK-ti2qq]

@@chrisfitzpatrick9108 "Zen.." is about values, and "Lila" is about quality. I respect his work, but IMO there is no way he can be put in the same ballpark with Nietzsche.

[@aqualityexistence4842]

Yes!

[@johnmadany9829]

I bought the book!

[@PresentFocus]

@@chrisfitzpatrick9108 I wonder if it is because he was arrogant enough to think two books was enough. Zen had a huge impact. I failed to get through Lila on two occasions

[@ssevkin]

@@RK-ti2qq Lila's about Morals

[@missh1774]

didnt expect this ... thank you 💛

[@ethimself5064]

I remember this book from back in the day👍👍

[@bloochoob]

I read that in the 80s, a great book

[@tanakeilidh384]

That was good.

[@johnchristopher1463]

To the last question, although an older book, Saving The Appearances by Owen Barfield

[@evanhadkins5532]

Matthew Crawford's The World Beyond Your Head deals with engaging the world. Philosophical but very readable. More philosophical than Shopclass as Soulcraft.

[@johnbuckner2828]

“Good is a noun”

[@JH-ji6cj]

If _good_ is a distinctive nature of a thing 'in itself', how can that be a beneficial distinction? I mean to say, what constitutes a 'bad' dog then? And if you cannot distinguish between a good and bad dog what good is using the terms? If you're anthropomorphizing the relationship, then what gives legitimate meaning between 'good' and 'bad' (besides the relationship...which I would argue gets back to the usefulness of the animal to the human and totally ruins the flowery-hippie "it's just a good dog, man, it's, like a noun, man" attack on characteristic definitions (poodle vs pug). "It's just a mushroom maaann, it's just nature man...just eat it" seems like a wrongheaded perspective to me. Labels have usefulness, purposefulness, reasons. I don't think the dog as a noun is helpful at all, it's just a subversion tactic to call into question the way we make distinctions, but, like PostModernism, isn't coming from a place of betterment/quality, but a place of animosity towards the existing culture and resentment of that culture (vs an integration and substantive understandings of the *_why_* a culture makes discerning qualifiers). Not all PostModernism is this, but much of it gets used in this way. It goes along with the idea that JUST identifying a problem (which becomes a problem in itself) isn't helpful unless you have also taken the time to figure out a solution to that problem. It's good to expose that the problems can be articulated, but bad if the energy gets interpreted as a 'grass is always greener on the other side', or nihilistic retreat.

[@johnbuckner2828]

@@JH-ji6cj I just think it IS helpful to believe in real objective quality, rather than a world of subjective relativism or logical positivism. The Good is out there, and if we can collectively discover and recognize it (I believe we have the faculties including reason, intuition and sensibilities), we can head toward it on a path of betterness, and make moral claims so that we don’t end up In A postmodernist’s worldview, & justifying wrong action.

[@JH-ji6cj]

@@johnbuckner2828 I believe it can definitely be helpful to believe your diet is good too (without getting bogged down in the science behind it), but stay conscious that it would be YOUR belief and may very well be working as a placebo. That's where the whole 'belief' problem begins. I can't take seriously those who discount the issues PostModernism presents while making untestable claims themselves through religious moral authoritative assertions, and calling those assertions 'objective reality' when the 'testability' is from personal experience or social outcome-based, which, like the aforementioned diet, may again be placebo or unscientifically founded/proven/tested. Claiming a dog is 'good' seems a dumb way of proposing objective truths for the reasons I previously stated.

[@johnbuckner2828]

@@JH-ji6cj The thing is, without a universal Language or Mind, The post modernists are correct and you cannot get to the “thing in itself.” We are cut off from ‘objective Truth.’ It seems to require a religious worldview to make any claims about objective reality. You can try to make claims about a good diet or a bad diet using scientific truths, but if your ‘function’ is to die and become plant food after you’ve reproduced, it might be better to live on a ‘bad diet’. If there is no hierarchy of objective value or Telos, maybe it’s better that humanity dies off & becomes a good diet for plants. Empiricism definitely plays a part, but we can’t get to oughts exclusively using the scientific method or pure reason.

[@JH-ji6cj]

@@johnbuckner2828 the point is, that morality and ethics are decisions/choices, not objective truths. To say that science can't inform decision making is an absolute assinine claim. Inform is the key, as every decision involves either cost/benefit analysis, or dogmatic blind following of pre-ordered rules. I expect that you probably are very lenient on the rules as many apologists are, if you're Xian when it comes to the 10 commandments and would say, support military or self defense, for example. Decisions are what separate objective truth (and I believe religion is a direct embodiment of why we see the new extremes such as SJW cropping up, they have the religious attitudes and thinking...as in, beliefs are personal and don't need to founded in reality. They are anti-science as well, except for when it serves their purposes to support their worldview. Much like religious orders do when they realize praying for the soil to bear crops is ultimately a dumb idea, but hate that birth control is a valid option that for some reason G-d can't intervene to stop) The SJW is similar in that they protest environmental crises using the most recent advanced in tech and are too ignorant to make the connection. Subjectivity is absolutely paramount in creation of social order and agreement, nothing objective about it (except for the scientific testable proof of the differences and how they manifest, like in brain chemistry). It's why/how people even CAN have different tastes....literally. Again why I say supporting calling a dog _good_ as a noun is a childish, emo, pandering statement. Different breeds are objective, good or bad subjective.

[@tjeerdvandermeulen5651]

Forgot the name of the main character in the book "Lila", that's funny.... I do agree also with his analysis of this book, "probably deeper, but harder to read".

[@aaronsmyth7943]

The order in a motor is constrained, and there is a clear therapeutic aspect in mastering it. There is no order in the way technology is moving, and there is no potential for extracting therapeutic value from random distraction.

[@afterthesmash]

Interesting that this comes up after I spent the morning reading about Oliver Heaviside, who was probably smarter, and nearly as quirky, but a completely different cat.

[@samuelverga3105]

Does anyone else see a connection between this idea of quality and John Vervaeke's idea of relevance and his theory of relevance realization?

[@PresentFocus]

I can vouch for feeling compelled to produce.

[@Pawgee]

I read it early but many other works rise above it, right

[@PresentFocus]

Pain produces expansive perspective

[@JDMumma]

I'm working on 'sense making' of the verbosity and loquacity!

[@Nashti_McStevens]

Its been a few years since I read it but one of the things that stood out to me most is: During the trip, the writer feels like he is having a more "quality" experience over his travelling companions because he understands the mechanical order or operations and maintenance procedures of the motorcycle. He shows this by contrasting his pretty much worry free travel as he rests assured in his knowledge of the machine while the couple he is travelling with have nothing but frustrations with theirs due to ignorance. The trouble is, he can't even connect with his son as they travel, so then is he truly having a quality experience? He is having a journey with the machine more than his son, is he a quality father? Is this a quality book? What is Quality? ok its excellence he says" Excellence in what? In life? Father>Mecahnical Engineer, so then no. Is this a quality book? For me, no I was too aware of the writer and his pontifications, also the character of Phaedrus is so abstract, you can think what you wish. Is this a quality Philosophical book? No there are better books to derive "Zen" ideas. I think this is a great book aimed at the western mind, which in some ways makes it kinda shallow.

[@ssevkin]

39.20 Partially Examined Life youtube channel 2 part discussion of Zamm

[@JH-ji6cj]

Johnathan needs to get a better mic. Changed to headphones to listen and he still sounds like he's in a hall (which he basically is in with that room he's speaking from)

[@indigoblue77]

Why no one is talking about the Facebook whistleblower??????

[@andrewmalcolm79]

If I learned anything from Sesame Street it's that it's hip to be a square.

[@allenwarren1269]

Maybe Stephen Jenkinson already wrote that sequel.

[@nitahill6951]

Phaedrus would be what Bernardo Kastrop calls a daemon, perhaps.

[@offcenterconcepthaus]

The book should be measured in megatons.

[@jrd33]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/poXCoKqkeJeLpLs "We can see how you can look at something from afar and you have an aesthetic sense of what's good and what's not good that precedes any rational deliberation about it, we can maybe grant you that; but if that's the case, tell me how it works in cases where you need prior knowledge to perceive in the right way. I don't know if Pirsig has been asked that but it's a key question about his work". Your aesthetic sense, your ability to perceive "dynamic quality", is shaped by your experiences. This is obviously the case; a young child's aesthetic sense is very different to an adult's, and our abilities to perceive develop according to our environment. We can all perceive dynamic quality but we see it in different places. Or have I missed the point you were making?

[@HakWilliams]

Too soon!

[@yazanasad7811]

Systems having interiority, a soul. Again quality Don't outsource, ask why is it broke n Technology theoretically neutral but actually in capitalist structure someone owns it. Why do they own it and what do they want. Does their private interests align with the public interest? Is facebook technology or capitalism as extraction. So can question technology How to think about this today in gloablised technological capitalist world

[@yazanasad7811]

Persig as a mystic

[@aldebaranredstar]

Horrible book where the father engages in child abuse -the cold and heartless way he treats his young son. Hated it.

[@swapticsounds]

Such a claim is respectless not only towards the author but also towards survivors of actual child abuse. And if you missed the pointings he was making in the book, you are in deepsleep. Human awakening happens on this planet, not on aldebaran or anywhere else.

[@aldebaranredstar]

@@swapticsounds the father knows the son is troubled and withdrawn but doesn’t communicate with him, doesn’t have a father-son heart to heart, or show him affection-like a hug! I see him as a neglectful, remote, uncaring parent. How do you see the father?

[@swapticsounds]

@@aldebaranredstar On this level of meaning, the author described his dealing with psychological illness. Due to the personality split as the result of the treatment of his desease, he was not in touch with his emotions, therefore not able to have a connection with his son. When he remembered his previous self, the part of his character which he dissociated from due to the electroshock therapy, and reintegrated this other half of his personality, he finally reconnects with his son Chris as well.

[@aldebaranredstar]

@@swapticsounds ok, I remember the electroshock treatment but didn’t get that his behavior to his son was a consequence. I had to stop reading the book due to my frustration with the dad. I was raised by neglectful and abusive people so I can’t handle it in fiction (even though there could be a valid medical reason for it, it’s hard to see suffering, the son wasn’t responsible for the treatment his dad got). This is the sad replay of abuse as it gets passed from one person to others and to the next generation. Good to know the dad reconnected with his son in the end.