WATCH THIS BEFORE DOING A 650B CONVERSION!

[@thomasdiaz5116]

Thank you for your well-considered opinion! I'm a shorter guy at 5'-7"/170cm and your video just inspired me to mod my Rans V-Rex recumbent with 650b and 20" wheels and MTB tires. I live in Alaska and this will get the 'bent through the challenging trail conditions here much better than the rubber envisioned by the bikes brilliant designers.

[@prewirespecialists1239]

This was an awesome video I think the best tech video so far... they keep getting better and better I found my kind of people with this channel.. I'm a huge fan keep up the good work!!!!

[@alans1816]

Thanks for this. You might want to add one of your more recent videos on shorter cranks to the playlist on 650b conversion.

[@lelca]

Thank you for speaking to the comprises of making/marketing a bike for multiple wheel sizes! Even though a frame can fit a 700x40 as well as a 650x48, it doesn't mean both will provide desirable handling traits. I hope the drop bar market evolves to reach an acceptance of both 650b and 700c as discrete wheel sizes which call for their own respective frame designs- just like 27.5 vs 29 for mtb's.

[@alexfitch5960]

I converted an old Trek 600 to 650b, and although that specific series didn't have the most desirable geometry for a conversion (the bb height is very low) I think it's absolutely hands down one of the more fun bikes I've ever owned and I've owned a ton. Sometimes the pedal spindle hits rocks, and I can't pedal into tight corners, but that is part of the fun IMO. This option is great if you don't have funds for a Crust or somethin' more ideal and just want to get out on some trails : )

[@ShinyUmbreon765]

Shorter cranks. Like 160-165 instead of the 170-175 it was specced with

[@alexfitch5960]

totally@@ShinyUmbreon765

[@grindeyyyyy]

What if you put smaller cranks on too

[@PolyglotBikepacker]

That definitely remedies that issue but then it's like, how comfy are you Pedaling

[@jef2547]

Speaking on the Vaya specifically, I just converted my 55cm Vaya to 650b x 2.0 and the BB now sits at 10 and 3/4 inches ground to center. I lost a 1/4 inch, but with my 170 crank arms I feel like it shouldn't make a huge difference. It stands to reason that someone who purely rides tarmac would put a 700 x 32 slick on the Vaya which would put the BB at around the same place. I did the conversion to increase it's dirt worthiness and just craved adding more supple to my life:) I had 700 x 47 Conti's on it for a while and they ran narrow but tall. While I had plenty of clearance, I felt top heavy and kinda crowded by the wheels (if that makes any sense). So far I like the conversion a lot. It does move the gear ratio up a bit and i'll know better once I take a 60+ miler on it. I have plenty of clearance in the chain stays that I could probably get away with a 2.2 but definitely a 2.1 without any clearance issues and that would bring the bottom bracket up even more. With all this said, it begs the question, 650 x 47?!!?!?! i am starting to seriously question your desire to live the supple life. Joking aside, I really think you do great videos. I watch them as they come and really appreciate the content. I've learned a lot. Thanks.

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

Yes a 27.5 x 2.1 tire would make drop the bottom bracket height less. The Compass tires were the only 650 tires that I had/have at the time to make the vid. I will say not all 650b tires are the same. The Switch Back Hills and Horizons have a more supple and lively casing than some of the larger mountain bike specific tires. When I test road the Journeyman it came with 650b x 2.1 Nanos which had the volume, but the casing was a lot stiffer so it didn't feel as supple. Would love to see 27.5 2.1 and larger tires with more responsive casings in the future (there might be some, but just not aware of them).

[@adamwood9610]

Effect on bottom bracket drop is definitely an important consideration, but it's the resulting outer diameter that matters...not rim size. So if you're converting from 700C x 25s and your frame can fit 650B x 48, the effect on BB drop won't be THAT noticable.

[@addersladders2957]

Adam Wood I don't really understand this, would be great if you could explain? I thought tire width is the measurement across the inflated tire, when looking from the front or back of the bike. I've read that wider 650b tires have the same diameter as 700c thinner wheels, but not really sure why? Is the height from edge of rim to contact point on the tire always higher on wider tires too and how can you know what this will be? Thanks

[@jochenkraus7016]

A bike tire is round (more or less) so a wider tire adds more height. The goal of these conversion is to get more rubber while keeping the wheel diameter the same. Afaik the rim types are 622 and 584, so the tire needs to add about 20mm more. If we assume tire width=height (which is probably simplified too far), going from 700x28 to 650x47 fulfills that, but 700x40 to 650x47 doesn't. 650x60 would be close, but that might be too wide for the frame or the fork.

[@drownthedays]

My experience is, that the smaller wheels more than make up for the lower bottom bracket in lively- and playfulness. Also, fatter or skinnier tyres can easily make that difference as well (or even more than half an inch)

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

On the Vaya in the video the smaller wheels made the bike a little boring to ride.

[@ericbono]

I guess my 2001 Schwinn Fastback road bike needs to stay a road bike. What I was not realizing w/o your video(s) is the callout on tire sizes is a diameter, not just a height. The width, in my case, is going to be the problem. I was fully prepared to be okay with drilling out for some sort of new braking configuration as the original calipers are probably going to be one of the other hangups. The bike already has major toe-clip problems that make me feel super unsafe and other issues anyways. Looking forward to one day getting a bike more suited to bikepacking w/o me dumping tons more money into folly. Thanks for helping me out on this.

[@MrClimberdave]

You can also add a crown race bottom cup spacer to offset the bottom bracket drop after converting to 650B

[@PolyglotBikepacker]

What is that exactly?

[@walterkasper467]

Also with 650b and low preasure when you put weight on the bike that bottom bracket is even lower

[@arvandero]

I need some expert advice! I have a Jamis Nemesis 27.5/650B mtb. I have a stock RockShox (thru axl) of course, but would like to convert this fork to a rigid fork. I only see 700c forks :( that of course can accommodate a 650b tire but I don't want to tweak my angles, etc. What are my options?

[@M1K3R0LPH]

Good point well made. I always thought 650b x 42c was roughly the same diameter as 700c 23c, so in theory there shouldn't be any drop 🤔

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

Depends on the bike and tires. Touring bikes are the trickiest to convert since they already have low BBs. Starting off with a bike that has a higher BB is best. Generally a bike built for 700x23 won’t have clearances for 650b x 43. Drop wise it might be neutral but will be problematic because of clearance.

[@M1K3R0LPH]

Path Less Pedaled another good point, I knew there'd be something I hadn't thought about. My converted Genesis CdF was designed as a cross bike I think so makes sense as that seems fine. Thanks for the reply and videos 👍

[@tonystanley978]

Touring bikes like Trek 520 and Surly Disc Trucker that are designed around 700x32 work well with 27.5 x 2" or 2.1" tyres with negligible change in the BB drop. You won't fit mudguards though.

[@tychay]

yes who would move from 700cx40 to 650bx48? the former is already “supple”, people are moving from 28 or 32s. The example is pretty contrived IMO and the number one concern i’ve seen is few people who want to convert own a disc brake road bike. They don’t realize to convert cantilevers or calipers requires a steel bike and a skilled welder. they’re better off buying a cheap direct sale bicycle and moving some parts over if necessary.

[@kenmoum162]

Don't forget that the REAL number to look at is BB drop. The Doppler has about 10mm less BB drop than the Vaya. But my 700c Giant Revolt has the same BB drop as the 650b Doppler-- ~65mm. The Moots Routt 45, which is a 700c bike is in between @ ~70mm. Sooo, If you can get something in the 70mm area, it might make the perfect frame for switching back and forth. OTOH, my Revolt, which isn't really twitchy on 700c x 42 tires, might be the perfect allroads limo on 650b x 54 Compass

[@merlings]

My 2014 croix de fer with 175 cranks is quite low so i'am reluctant to pull the trigger on 27.5 wheels .700x38 is about the max the fork can cope with .

[@luquita88]

hello, aspiring bike nerd here. I know this is an older video and maybe old news but I am curious to check my theory here. could the bottom bracket height be solved on the converted 650b bike with some bigger tires which adjusted the wheel diameter loss? Obviously you would have to go real big to get the exact same geometry (I am pretty sure in this case you would need 2.3" tires to match the bb height) but if you went with bigger tires the bb height could at least be mitigated yes?

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

Sure but too big of a tire raises clearance issues as well as pneumatic trail making for sluggish handling.

[@luquita88]

interesting makes sense thank you for your reply

[@jackhammer40k_]

hello I was wondering if you could do some investigation into the other end of the spectrum: that is converting a 26" MTB to a 650B touring/gravel bike. The thing is, is that it's an older MTB with V-Brakes and I'd like to fit rim brakes. So I'd like to know if there are brakes (v or canti) with enough reach to accommodate 650b wheels. Thanks for your thoughts and your nice channel :)

[@jackhammer40k_]

BTW not the Paul ones - for the price of a pair, I'm pretty sure I could get the brake bosses removed and re welded onto the frame :D

[@cycling2005]

650b are not more supple than 700c. Bigger tyres are more supple than smaller tyres. A 700c wheel with same size tyre will be more comfortable than a 650b wheel. Better roll over and more air volume for the same width allowing lower pressure, longer spokes will flex more. The mountain bike world has this well established. The bb issue also comes to bite you when putting pure road tyres 28c on a gravel bike designed for 42c tyres.

[@thegefster1988]

Did you know that WTB lists on their website which bikes convert to both wheel sizes.

[@thegefster1988]

I may add for the 47 650b but if it works for something larger that would be fine as a wider tire generally raises the bike as well. Check out the site.

[@dougcohenmiller]

So, when you say that 650b is supple, do you mean on its own it’s more supple than a similar tire/pressure on 700c; or are do you mean that 650b is supple with supple tires and pressure?

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

650b on its one isn’t necessarily supple. The WTBs that came on the Journeyman were IMO pretty stiff. But, there are supple options out there for 650b. What I am mostly referring to is that given the same outside diameter you can get more air volume and suspension. For some this is a moot point if you are tall or ride big frames. As a shorter rider trying to get right size wheels for my frame size this makes a bigger difference.

[@isaaccameron7852]

So I'm in the early stages of planning a gravel conversion from a 2008 devinci Cameleon (hardtail xc/mountain/commuter hybrid) and I'm thinking I'm going to convert it from 26" tires to 650b.. assuming it fits in the rear (I'm switching to a rigid fork that will accommodate the size) do you think it's worth doing ? My thinking is it will raise the bottom bracket slightly, and that should be a more modern geometry change anyways ? I don't feel any issue with stability, and compared to newer trail bikes I have ridden it feels quite methodical and not jumpy, so I figure this change would just go in my favour. Any effect on efficiency while cycling flatter long distances ? Thanks for the video !

[@robindegu7294]

Would a shorter crank arm help mitigate this drop?

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

It would but that starts to get more $$$

[@robindegu7294]

@@PathLessPedaledTV thanks good to know

[@sonsofmatriarchy5552]

What about cyclo-cross bikes, I hear they generally have a higher BB compared to gravel bikes, the geometry is slightly different too

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

They probably would do better avoiding pedal strike. Just has to have the clearance. It will inevitably change the handling. Could be better. Could be worse. Or just different.

[@gcoutomachado]

My bike was designed to fit the 700x25c tire. That's the maximun clearance. Do you think it might work with 650x32c? The bike is an old road bike, 1998, Cannondale. Great channel and I watch it for two purposes: practice english and learn about gravel bikes. By the way, I´m from Brazil.

[@jochenkraus7016]

Does it have rim brakes? Their diameter is different, so the brake pads are in the wrong position.

[@matthieumoreau5125]

My understanding is that the external diameter of a 650B and a 700C is the same ( hence the "bigger" tire on a 650B ). Based on your mesure there would be a full inch different in external diameter. Where is the gap?

[@quentinberg3755]

He compared a big tire on a 700c rim to a slightly bigger tire on a 650b rim. Which makes little sense, IMO. The smart thing is to have a 700x__ wheel set and a 650x__ wheel set that have approximately the same overall diameter. Then the geo of the bike basically stays the same and you are just selecting how much rubber you have between your rim and the ground based on what you expect to ride that day. That increases the bike’s versatility and is value added. Swapping rim size without making the requisite change to the tire size is a poor decision.

[@spacerconrad]

I'm looking at my new Montague Fit, which has plenty of side clearance front and back, but the vestigial brake bridge is the limiting factor, keeping me to 700x30, though the 'stock' tire size the bike was designed around is 28. So... I was thinking this would be an excellent candidate for 650b.

[@arepea6087]

Can you compensate for that half inch loss when converting to a 650b by running a high-profile tire so not only wide but high, would that gain back what you lost by going to a smaller wheel or is that not possible?

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

You could but that’s a big tire. In the 2.3 inch range.

[@michaelhammill8000]

There are issues involving brakes for those attempting to convert nondisc framesets, ie reach of caliper or placement of cantibosses.

[@unsungwindham]

I own the new 650b Salsa Journeyman and have noticed pedal strike when taking turns or going over bumps. I've had the bike for about a month and both crank arms are already pretty scratched up. Is this to be expected with most frames that are intended to be set for 650b?

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

Shouldn’t be. Running the stock tires?

[@unsungwindham]

WTB 650b Byways tubeless. I guess i wasn't being careful when rolling over curbs and making turns (crank arm down on the side I'm turning into). Amateur stuff. Have you ridden on the WTB Byways yet set up tubeless? I'd like to hear what you think of them. I absolutely love them.

[@trueKurgan]

I need a review of the Doppler! It's time to make the change to discs for my touring bike and the Doppler might be the best value out there. The problem I have is the nearest shop that sells Breezer is ~100 miles away and didn't have a Doppler in stock last time I called.

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

Doppler review coming soon.

[@DavidPulsipher]

really good video. informative. technical. useful.

[@stroudnick]

My 2 cents, with making the switch from 26" to 29" terrain/"bike use" play a huge role a 650c/27.5" to 700c/29" conversion decision and I would imagine that most conversions (a lower BB) wouldn't make any sense for most riders. The only bikes that would work well for this type of conversion, in my opinion, would be for a bike for which is being covered from something like 700X23 (old school road/touring bike) or used in an urban/commuting setting exclusively. Although Russ is right, touring bikes already have a lower BB generally. This thought has steered me away from making the conversion for my monster Salsa Marrakesh (a touring bike) currently running 700c x 42 (specialized sawtooths).

[@Fetherko]

I imagine converting my 700c bicycle that fits a maximum width of 28mm for tires.

[@francisconmigo9130]

Very informative topic here...just wondering besides the drop in BB, how is the toe overlap with the conversion from 700c to 650b? thanks

[@jochenkraus7016]

It should improve a bit when the wheel diameter gets smaller.

[@robertbonner5973]

Is anyone making frames with eccentric bottom bracket for this option? It would be nice if they did . I have a Soul Cycle Dillinger, and besides running a SS set up , it’s nice to be able to raise my B.B. for log overs and other technical riding .

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

Yeah. Have thought that an eccentric bottom bracket would be an interesting solution to BB height issues.

[@robertbonner5973]

Jones bikes are awesome. It’s at the top of my list.

[@davidcummings5826]

I converted an old Trek 710 that could handle 700x28 to 650x38. Qualifier: I built it from the frame up as 650b so never experienced it with 700c off-road. That being said, I have experienced pedal strike on rough terrain as mentioned in the vid. I don’t typically pedal through tight corners, so never experienced problems there. I would have to de-convert the bike to 700c and cover the same ground to see if I had the same pedal-strike experience, but then I would be seriously underbiking! It also could have someone to do with the rather large Look delta pedals I use - dual platform/clipless. Pay attention to the pedals you use. Regardless, BB-drop is an important thing to consider when doing a conversion - thanks for the vid and keep them coming!

[@walterkasper467]

Lower preasure. The bottom bracket will lower more with rider than higher preasure with 700c tires

[@guivans]

I have a bike with 700, but would like to apply the "supple" concept to the 700 size. Could someone advise 700, large volume, road tires? Anythng like a Horizon 700?

[@Radingtonbear]

Hey guivans, Maxxis make some good 40C road and gravel tyres Panaracer too give them a look =)

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

Been enjoying some tires from Soma. In particular the Supple Vitesse in 42mm and the Cazadero in 50mm

[@nesutoneko]

Compass currently makes extralight 700x44 and recently teased 700x55 on their IG.

[@bmcossette]

I’ve been thinking about changing my Vaya out to 650b. I just changed my crankset from 175mm to 170mm. Hopefully that will help a little with pedal strikes.

[@danielemilazzo432]

Would you need shorter cranks?

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

That would certainly help.

[@nonoytat]

Have you ever had a Cannondale superx 650b conversion? Thanks!

[@jasonstella74]

Hard to get 26 tires.....

[@nesutoneko]

Hey Russ, what pedals are on the Vaya? DMR?

[@FlyingBrickADV]

Thanks, that succinctly answered a question I had been grappling with.

[@thegefster1988]

Just add a bigger tire if you can and that ups the bottom bracket.

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

Most bikes aren’t designed for that large of a tire.

[@thegefster1988]

@@PathLessPedaledTV I have a roker and it takes a 700x45 and shoukd fit a 650b 2.0

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

The Gefster great for you. Not everyone is converting bikes with that much clearance.

[@kinlex9]

Hi! Thank you for the great and interesting content on the channel! :) Do you anyone who converted Cannondale CAADX to 650b? I'd really like to try, but not sure if rear wheel will fit because of the "save" technology chainstays.

[@Xgecko66]

A heat gun makes a tape sealing your rims a lot easier

[@jasonstella74]

26 to 650b definitely is the way 2 go...

[@Natuh21]

Im still wondering that but when u check the cost of wheels plus tires it's a no no no situation 😂, plus if u wanna run tubes its very hard to find here in southern Brazil, if I was living in São Paulo would be a whole different history 😢

[@RobLuskey]

I know the video was about converting an existing 700c bike to 650b but curious about something like the Salsa Journeyman which looks to have the same BB drop on both the 700c and 650b Sora versions. Am I safe to assume that these new adventure bikes are truly wheel/tire size agnostic as it relates to their geos? It would appear so but maybe I'm thinking of this incorrectly (?) Thanks for another great video.

[@WildOutdoorLiving]

Some bikes like the Journeyman have adjustable rear dropouts that allow you to change the chainstay length which also changes the BB height and the wheel base. The BB drop is the same regardless of wheel size as it measures what the difference is between the height of the rear axle and the height of the bb, where as BB height measures the actual distance from the ground.

[@RobLuskey]

Wild Outdoor Living thanks. I completely confused BB drop with BB height.

[@ks-pg5sh]

I'm not so sure the Journeyman models have adjustable dropouts. The stock bike models are offered in two different wheel sizes, two component groups, and two bar styles. (Six models in total.) Could you be thinking of the Fargo, that uses the Alternator dropouts to allow for different wheelbase lengths, as well as being single-speed capable?

[@WildOutdoorLiving]

Ahh you are correct. Wasn't thinking of the Fargo specifically but I did for some reason think that the Journeyman came with Alternator dropouts (offered on many of salsa's bikes over the years). Adjustable (or "alternator") dropouts and flip chips are used by several other bikes to affect wheel base and BB height in order to allow the swapping of wheel sizes though.

[@craighorner4607]

i would convert my 650b bike to 26" 559mm wheels simply because there is a firmly established 30+ year history of 26" wheels out there and a non standard wheel like the 650b does not.

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

650b has been around since the 1930s. So there’s that.

[@Klips005]

I found when shopping online more of the newer more well regarded tire models are readily available for 650b than they are for a 26..and I'm running a 559

[@amadeusb4]

Lot's of 26" bikes on craigslist out there for no money AT ALL.

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

There are. Not a ton of 26 inch drop bar bikes tho.

[@TheCajunGaijin]

But if my bike clears 700x52...

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

Do it. I prefer 650b because I’m a shorter rider (which I mention in the very beginning).

[@TheCajunGaijin]

Path Less Pedaled for sure. Bike shops tried to sell me on 650 for my new bike. Been researching the adventure bike. Bought my wife a surly last year. Didn't want to get her 650 because I wanted us to both ride the same size. But she is short. At that time I didn't realize every company was going back to this old wheel size. Now as I was shopping every bike I liked....650. ha.

[@JimBronson]

I converted my older Rivendell from 700x30 Grand Bois Cypres to 650Bx38 Pari-Moto 4 years ago and it has 80mm BB drop. And I have 175 cranks. Yea it's close to the ground, but if you're a smart rider and don't try to pedal through 90 degree right hand turns, you'll be fine. It just requires a certain level of awareness. Hashtag #thesupplelife, really? You kids and your Twitter. I converted to supple tires 12 years ago, before most of the supple tires made today were even on the market, so it's hardly new. The problem with people today is that they don't give credit where credit is due, to folks like Grand Bois in Japan and Jan Heine in Seattle. Back in the mid-00s those guys were swimming upstream against the tide of people who wanted tires that would never flat but they stuck to the message and eventually the market evolved to where it is today. Signed, Retro Grouch.

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

Uh. We give lots of credit to Jan. Heck we even have an exclusive video interview with him on our frigging channel.

[@MnBicycleCommuter]

I don’t think you have a clear understanding on the difference between bottom bracket height and bottom bracket drop. Bottom bracket drop is fixed no matter what size wheels/tires you use. The B.B. drop helps determine the rest of the frame geometry and it’s handling characteristics. Changing wheel sizes doesn’t change the geometry. A 1/2 inch change in B.B. height has almost no effect on handling. You are misleading people with this video.

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

I beg to differ. I’ve been riding a converted Vaya and it rides completely different than a stock one. We have two one with 700x40 and another 650bx48 and it’s different ride. I’m not confusing drop with height. I never mention B.B. drop and only talk about height so don’t put words in my mouth.

[@RMEmtb]

This is thoroughly inaccurate. Pathless is correct in all articles mentioned in the video.

[@ROCKKIZZ]

NICE Topic and ISSUES! But its Hard to Wach the Clip! You Are so Kind of Emotions Dizzeling too much! .. Sorry Your not Talking kind of Raping with your Hands and Moving Like Crazy .. Had to Stop the Clip!! DAMN DUDE! Chill a Bit for your Explanations Movements ..

[@PathLessPedaledTV]

Ha. I have hard time getting words out standing still.