Patron's Choice | Top 5 Most OP Doctrines in EVE Online History

[@thewboomboomb2972]

my god, the bubbles really looked like well, bubbles back in the day lol

[@deanfetters384]

looks like the little bee video

[@RanaRandom]

They removed the *bubbly DRAG* bubble, but kept the other *warp disrupt* bubble, I think :|. The *Command Burst* bubbles are still working as intended

[@luiscatan858]

i still remember the day i saw a loki tanking a 5 bs a dread and a carrier without any kind of help .....

[@sebathadah1559]

I've been around for the drake doctrine, the claw doctrine, the ishtar doctrine... I even lost an ishtar in a goon swarm fleet because the game died and when I loffed back in I was in the middle of the enemy fleet. :)

[@Trespasser249]

Honestly the gankageddon back in the day was just insane. Solo or in groups it just completely owned and is the reason diminishing returns are on damage mods.

[@RhelrahneTheIdiot]

Wai, WHAT

[@Trespasser249]

@@RhelrahneTheIdiot yeah, back in the old days, damage mods didnt have diminishing returns, they just all stacked. So a gankageddon had most of its lows full of damage mods and that got the volley damage really high on pulse lasers but also made the rate of fire about 1 second.

[@RhelrahneTheIdiot]

@@Trespasser249 Glass cannon lmao?

[@Trespasser249]

@@RhelrahneTheIdiot yeah but back then battleships were no where near as proliferated as today and battleships had a lot of hp compared to everything else at the time. I remember a buddy and me killing a tanked dominix in our geddons in 12 seconds. Like nothing could really stop them back then. They even tracked cruisers insanely well.

[@RhelrahneTheIdiot]

@@Trespasser249 Seems times have changed since you and I played, I only started within 2020

[@ChuckNasty.]

Jin, Thanks for adding this video from mangra he's a great guy we really miss him, he passed away a few years ago man did that guy love is proteus and legions. His Spirit lives on in his monument in kbp. o7

[@Jintaan]

Yeah - I was debating putting a little bit of text to the effect of "Miss you bud" but I didn't want to get too sappy. We talked a tonne on comms after fleets, and he mentioned that he was ill but I never knew it was as bad as it was. I'm glad that at the very least we could all be his friends in his last few years and keep his mind off of everything. o7 Mangraa

[@ashwean]

Never met Mangra myself but heard of the man and the legend but I wish I did some of my friends did and always said he was a good guy. So I'm here to pay my respects to him with two of his friends. Mangara o7 gone but never forgotten

[@ChrisFryer78]

Claw fleets were a nightmare...

[@ocelotmadness6287]

Nightmare fleets were a claw Wait

[@joy_gantic]

Keep up the uploads Jin'taan I'm so hyped

[@kiromancer]

Guy does a great job!

[@Jintaan]

@@kiromancer

[@toysoldier46552]

I miss my Abaddons fitted with arties, those things were insane and we killed capitals enmasse for a few months with them. The other mention would have to be the zealots of 2011 or so, in fleets these things were insane in power as well.

[@EvgGaar]

I came here expecting those two to be mentioned in the video, lol

[@toysoldier46552]

@@EvgGaar I know right? lmao.

[@cafi739]

Pretty reasonable list I agree with. I'll add a couple from my own experiences tho. Vagabonds, circa 2006/2007 (I think), though they weren't used much as a proper doctrine, they were the penultimate anti tackle ship that made rlmls look like torpedoes, low sig, incredible speed that was completely unmatchable at the time, and thanks to falloff and tracking enhancers pretty good range. They operated similar to modern muninns. If it weren't for the cost at the time they would have seen much more use imo, because they could absolutely walk all of the light and heavy doctrines at the time and disengage if outnumbered. The nano nerf hit them harder than any other ship and made them unviable overnight. The original Slippery Pete's specifically. Unprobable, untackleable, and able to project and track out to lock range, you could put every person in the fleet in one and hit way above your weight Laser Geddons. It can't be understated how strong they were once the majority of people started getting into t2 battleship guns, they had high ehp, good projection with scorch, excellent tracking, utility nos that functioned as neuts, and crazy dps especially for an armor comp. They were incredible at punching down and were pretty even with the megathrons depending on how they were flown, which was its main battleship competition. Stacking penalties and the nos changes took away their two biggest strengths as a comp, and they never really recovered. Further note. A lot of people talk about cavalry ravens as though they were the kings of the hill, but the truth is the spider domis of old were probably a lot more difficult to deal with. In the pre logi era they had unmatched sustainability and with drones they had a solution to everything they ran into. The cavalry raven was pretty niche to be honest and required both a lot of luck and excellent coordination with tacklers to pull off. Ironically they performed best against the spider domis, but if they couldn't get the volley to kill one or two outright (difficult to do in an era where 5-10 battleships were a nigh on unheard of, absolutely overwhelming force) they would usually lose the resulting brawl once they made impact thanks to the survivability of a spider domi. Also remember that in the era of multi prop mods that everything had that level of speed and they were honestly fairly slow by comparison being a low base speed battleship, thanks to missiles and the comps need to endlessly chase a target they could be kited out extremely easily if they were fighting something that could peel tackle, and they ate shit particularly hard to the spiderkite tempests (another super niche, almost forgotten comp). It was the overall lack of organization and coordination back then while people were still working out the game mechanics that enabled them to work more than anything. (And also everything having 90% webs.)

[@Jintaan]

FUCK I CANT BELIEVE I FORGOT SLIPPERY PETES GODDAMNIT THOSE THINGS WERE HIDEOUSLY BROKEN

[@JZ909]

I remember one of my first fleet fights. I was flying a Blackbird as part of Brave's ECM fleet. I was bridged in, loaded grid, and died instantly from a fleet of Tengus sitting 200km away. I think I was the first kill in that fight. That was my introduction to Slippery Petes.

[@microcosmos9143]

Can I quote your observations on my tactical notes?

[@alfaDude156]

The whole nano-era was fun. Nanophoon and 15kms+ crows ...

[@Roenhelmify]

@@alfaDude156 Yeah, Nanophoons bumping anything and everything. Golden times.

[@clauschristoffero]

One of the things PL really did in an impressive was the specialized firewall BS's against HM drakes getting juice from cap transfer Guardians. When other entities replicated it they ended up with comps where every ship had a single smartbomb. Never participated much big gang stuff, so cant comment on efficiency of the different approaches but PL definitely had more finesse.

[@mcrsftexcel]

>100mn gila >take skill to pilot properly choose one

[@caseylp7121]

I think he specifically meant the FC's piloting skill.

[@Jintaan]

Do you think I missed a broken doctrine? Don't be afraid to let me know and start some discussion down in the comments!

[@irongeir3437]

What about the Golden Fleet of Navpocs? Also the orginal t3 doctrines that were more brawly and fielded by Verge of collapse back in the days. To also note, honestly these Overpowered fleets always spawned and new era of counters every time they arise. You mentioned that the long range T3 hacish fleet had no counter, however the emergence of the Arty Machs was one that was arising to counter them. I wish CCP would just let us deal with re-balancing ships by letting us find counters. Gud vid though looking back to when eve was funner.

[@engyn0]

I was expecting to see the nano ship era. That stuff was broken.

[@AlRashidKarim]

Nano-domis! And later, the whole nano-meta, a.k.a "ludicrous speed" era and the subsequent sweeeping speed nerf and changing the scramblers to shut down MWDs and (to compensate a bit) nerfing webs (they were all ~90%). (not missed, though, that's 2008 and earlier).

[@AlRashidKarim]

And what about the most broken one - capitals?

[@elita2cents]

It may be too early but don't forget triglavian online.

[@FlameDarkfire]

How do you feel about doctrines using the TIII strategic destroyers?

[@HikingFeral]

I play echoes and only ever dipped a toe into EO. your videos are super useful though and looking into the past of EO is like looking into a hazy crystal ball for possible future echoes content.

[@Roenhelmify]

Also, the old Titanbombs, where you just cyno in 50 Titans and clear the whole grid. Funny times.

[@tyreecrowder1322]

Question: is Empire building in 2019 possible advantages and drawbacks

[@TheAnon03]

The Drake nerf (which was a nerf to HML's) REALLY hurt our corp in WH space. We kept our site doctrine working but it was never as good after that. The irony is that a hard counter to even the largest Drake fleets was developed a few months before the nerf rendering it completely pointless.

[@roarkgarnet149]

Cant agree with the list for the most part. No early 2010 HML tengus, no alpha fleet, no hellcats, the sentry drone dominix far predate the ishtar version (used by Cursed alliance in the south, when Atlas went north versus NC), no armorhacs (armorhax!)

[@RanaRandom]

16:55 I heard that Ship popped :O.

[@codywatt7775]

This is a nice trip down memory lane but what about whats OP now in 2020? Although it was a fun video to watch i feel i have been bait and switched haha.. do you have a current video like that?

[@Jintaan]

No, but that's not a terrible idea!

[@Apothne]

Appreciate the shoutout

[@Jintaan]

It's a great series, one of the things that made me want to start writing EVE articles way back in the day

[@blakeberry182]

Triglavian BC with Zarm logi is pretty OP. Our fleet doctrine drek is around 200k ehp before links and without high grade implants. and they all push well over 1000 dps after ramp up. With interdiction maneuvers, they are decently agile to be as tanked as they are. Things melt, very quickly. The only know counter I've seen besides being massively outnumbered is dropping caps. Maybe try to alpha snipe them, but they have a pretty small sig radius. And Zarm logi is outstanding.

[@1adog1]

I'm personally of the opinion that Muninns in the current meta are a bit more deserving of a spot on the list. Taking capitals out of the equation you have only one true "counter", and only in the sense that you can win the isk war, not necessarily beat them. Outside of that they can go up against every class of ship from frigate to battleship and come out ontop, which has caused about 85-90% of large scale fights in my recent experience to be Muninn vs. Muninn. I lived through both the Ferox meta and the tail end of the T3C meta, and while I feel T3Cs well deserve the top spot, the ferox meta was nowhere near oppressive as Muninns are today, with there still being subcapital counters, and even some overlap in the periods in which T3Cs and Machariels were out in force.

[@cormack6349]

Yea I definitely agree that the muninn is stupid OP as there is like 3 ways to try and fight a fleet, eagles, another muninn fleet, or boson them while they go somewhere

[@ashwean]

Why no bomber honourable mention? most large corps have a bomber squad or two for stealth missions and dont forget bombers bar and wingspan two corps who are nothing but bombers, soe ships and other covert ops ships?

[@slimj091]

This is a major reason why I never got stuck into EVE. Right when I would have all of the skills trained to actually fly a doctrine the meta would swing around like a helicopter dick, and I would be stuck staring at another six month long training queue.

[@PhazonSouffle]

What's that scaffolding around jita 4-4?

[@Jintaan]

It's the new model revamp that's happening in Jita 4-4 that's pretty hecking neat. CCP's art team continues to bat 100.

[@PhazonSouffle]

@@Jintaan so instead of building a new station, they decided to wrap a new layer around the old one. It's the start of a matrioshka world.

[@gmaninatrashcan7144]

@@Jintaan too bad they still haven't removed reinforcement timers on mobile depots in jita though.

[@darkestkhan]

Well, one BC that can compete with ferox is harb... but it does require skilled FC and they are more expensive and more sp heavy (you pretty much need L5 in advanced weapon upgrades + 3% pg implant). But I don't see how to counter eagles...

[@peWpew-yh4er]

They cannot compete, heavy beams requires too much PG for the harb to be fit decently

[@darkestkhan]

@@peWpew-yh4er you can fit them decently - just need fitting skills at L5 and 3% pg implant. This alone means that you can't field as many of them as easily as one could with feroxes.

[@Kingchar23]

T3 are not dead they still exist just a lot more subdued and used as brawlers. They still have most there power just with a cost increase

[@zmiller151]

long range jackdaws are a very effective skirmishers that donot require logi to run . have dumpstered gila fleets with them as their lock time is so fast and range is so good you can force them to warp into you and alpha one or 2 before their logi can save them just wash rinse repeat until they leave or you can kill them off

[@peWpew-yh4er]

No T3 are dead.

[@grahamelliott9506]

carriers really were broken, lol i'm glad they weren't covered in some degree if you didn't know what it was like to try to break cross fitting triage archons... consider yourselves lucky our large pos bash fleets in ZERG ran up against the cross fitting triage archon a couple times I could recall, and you might imagine , if you played back then, a large pos bashing fleet could take on a couple archons.... noooope negative ghostrider the pattern is full

[@user-py9cy1sy9u]

there is video on cross fitting archons kzbin.info/www/bejne/iH6pkpuIadyLisk

[@zhain0]

Traige carriers were absolute hell to fight

[@OzzyTripping]

Lmao! That Ferrox pilot turned off him innvuls amd them gets primaried

[@deanmillard9853]

no rooks and kings pipe bomb?

[@FinALIEN93]

What about the difference between armor and shield supers? Haven't seen Shield super groups for a LOOOOONG time :P

[@Underworld0X0]

What do you think about Rocks&Kings Smarbomb fleet?

[@benkraft8404]

For games in general i view overpowered as what defines the meta... so basically what everyone uses.. so since munins gets used by basically everyone its clearly op... or pve gila, why use anything else in abyss of for combat explo... fnc for solo... rorqs because why use barges anymore... and basically every trig ship outside of the vedmak

[@xerty5502]

The problem with that view is the meta does not always reflect what is the most unbeatable though admitidaly with eve being as old as it is that's closer to true than in younger games. Far to often the meta revolves around the flavor of the (insert time frame hear). Many games meta tends to go through cycles of things seeming to be the best while often times there counter ie unpopular. one reason for this (there could be several thus is just an example) could be a former meta made the counter garbage and no one even though to test if last metas garbage was this metas counter.

[@Apothne]

Minor correction, fuck Ishtars had 10 editions, not 7 :)

[@ssumnerjr]

What about the entire triglav line??????? Definetly OP

[@Apollo-tj1vm]

They don't define the meta

[@gmaninatrashcan7144]

In wormholes they do. Dreks, and leshaks are doctrine in pretty much every wormhole corp. Then there's the ikitursa which dominates in solo and fleet setups, and are only not meta due to the fact that they cost almost a bil a pop if they are properly fit.

[@VADER677]

Fozzie Claw fleets. You helped get rid of them Jin. :)

[@Jintaan]

I'll note that I was never super happy with the change that took them out as it basically made 4 ships non-viable - Would have loved to see a more intricate solution that kept them as strong roaming/harassment ships, but it wasn't on the cards for CCP, given how little resources they have for balance :(

[@BlueEyesGaming]

@@Jintaan *Shrug* they still are. fast as fuck warps. fast aligns. high dps. fast moving on grid. its just cause they dont laugh at bubbles anymore, doesnt make them total shit. they just got moved back in line with everything else and now everyone is riding the newer OP wagons.

[@stormriderstudios]

Arty Maels? Or was that pre-2010?

[@elita2cents]

Arty meals and arty abaddons were no longer a thing when we got warp to zero. I do miss the sniper maches though!

[@Jintaan]

Arty Maels have pretty much always had a spot in the doctrine but I wouldn't really call them broken TBH. A lot of doctrines (AHACS, Thundercats, etc.) had great matchups against them, and FCing them into even matchups (Rokhs during 2012, Megas during 2014) was still fairly challenging.

[@cosgarosut]

How did i know Ishtars were gonna be on there.

[@acutosan7335]

Battle venture is the best fit for pvp

[@RE-jm9un]

Aaaw man Ishtars. I both miss them and I am glad they're gone. Eve Online, also known as world of Ishtars... Ishtars for fleets, Ishtars for gangs, Ishtars for PvE... Dominix... you forgot those. Same problem as Ishtars mainly, just harder to kill. I remember a siege of some system we did where I would just turn my PC on in the morning, join fleet, warp my Domi to the FC, assign drones and go to work.

[@antivalidisme5669]

As YT literally swallowed my initial post- believe m you should be grateful!- I will have to very briefly summarize it. I was wondering, what's you opinion on triglavian fleets though I'm not an expert BY FAR on this topic? I mean dessies bashing structures or even sub-caps in no time? On another hand I won't lie, as I began to play in November 2013 I have a special feeling concerning Ishtars or Dominixes fleet, call it a 2013 New Eden tournament- UHurt

[@Jintaan]

Kikis & Dreks are a little imba but in general they don't scale up super well, and ultimately I think they're kind of necessary to be broken _right now_ as a counter to capitals. Munnins (in my controversial opinion) do have counters in things like NavPocs, but NavPocs are made non-viable by capitals, which is why they're able to run rampant. Eagles exist as the counter to Muninns, but would take over the Muninn role if CCP nerfed them into irrelevance.

[@andreydow4629]

Miss eve so much

[@Richard_AKL]

Andrey Dow Unfortunately the Eve we miss no longer exists :(

[@da_bes]

Brave of you to not put muninns in there. But yeah ishtars were absolute aids

[@BigBrotherWebb]

honestly as soon as i read the title the song "wrecking ball" came to mind. preceded by those annoying hype horns.

[@BlueEyesGaming]

my lil list. in no particular order slippery pete v1 Refit machs (particularly the lowsec voltron machs v goonswarm) Ishtars... fucking ishtars man... (also it wasnt a year. it was like 2+) ALL CAPITALS ALL THE FUCKING TIME BL muninn V1. and the current muninns of course. Cloaky loki's now. (while not often a largescale fleet setup. it functions like petes or the claw fleets. uncatchable blaps) T3c's. all the time. always broken I do agree about missing ishtars btw. with booshing, bombs and alot more mobile warfare. i'd LOVE to see ishtar blobs m ake a resurgence. i also miss draeks too. firewalling was a GREAT tactic that made you feel like a fucking GOD when u were doing it.

[@rioterwarhier]

The Ishtar was cancer... on eve statistics they did more damage with ishtars than all other ships together, even including capitals.

[@blacklightbnc5507]

Now I miss gankageddons and cavalry ravens :(

[@ribbo1]

You miss falling alseep in your raven at a planet.

[@SD78]

7:30 LOLWUT? Ferox was pure garbage until around 2011.

[@placerdemaio]

miss eve T.T

[@elita2cents]

Very interesting! However I am glad you used past tense for this blog. Now for the Ferox, yes she is a fine ship but also keep in mind that medium railguns were one of the worst medium long range guns in the game for over a decade! The Harbinger, though not as fast and an afterburner doctrine didn't quite make it to the popular list, even though you can fit a 1600mm plate very easy now. Combined with a range of 105/121km beams have much better tracking than railguns. In my defense, I haven't given out the fit to anyone but a handful of people and it won't matter really very much since we now have triglavian online. Who wouldn't want a Cormorant, or talwar or Corax go 2600m/s base and do 400 dps at 62km and ontop of that have more neuts that anything else in the game, yes I am staring at you kikimora. Speaking of battlecruiser, sure who doesn't want a 1500dps battlecruiser which becomes unkillable with the inbuilt logi or in case you bring dedicated logi, the room to fit 3 links at wants without any sacrifices and still get 120k ehp - lol and yes I am looking at you too drekavac.. Then finally and speaking of aHACs, isn't it nice to have a HAC that does 2200+ dps, has the speed of light as base speed, a bajillion ehp and is only limited by the cost - well not for long. Even if CCP were to undo the heavy missile nerf, which I was heavily against at the time because it was clear that by the time other things were adapted, it would become moot.

[@theobjectivistdollar9485]

What I learned from this video: Fuck PVP.

[@lonestarcj8132]

Huh?