Paul's Rants - What's in a name?

[@shanedykes7841]

BSA still exists in Armoury Road, Small Heath. I took a picture of my A65 Spitfire under the BSA sign there last year. They still make guns or at least parts for guns. Now if they started making bikes again, there would be a connection.

[@stansolley5634]

Good point Paul, you will twist yourself into a pretzel trying to find the connection. I own a 47 J2 the last of the 47's start of 48 now my 500 Bullet Electra is Indian built. The connection for me the heart of the machine is the same principle. The only way a company can use the word Royal is to be granted permission from the Royal family of the country in which the product is made. Trying to make a connection with for example RE you have to look back to the very early 1950's. But apart from that you are totally right the rest died out through sheer incompetent management & taking the Japanese onslaught not seriously enough. Sorry for the long winded post keep up the good work cheers mate 🇦🇺

[@peter7624]

"Grandads' back!" That gave me a chuckle. I have to agree Paul, they've got absolutely no connection, it's just big foreign companies cashing in on our love of heritage. I loved BSAs, but I don't delude myself into thinking there's any connection with Small Heath. It doesn't mean they're bad bikes, but we can't pretend they're authentic BSAs.

[@gordonsuddery4635]

Love your rant! I'm a true British Classic bike guy, i'm not interested in the new BSA or the so called New Norton. Triumph is a different argument. Royal Enfield is the only new bike i would consider buying. My best wishes to you from the Philippines love your videos ❤️💪👍😉😀😁🏁🛺🏍️🐑🇵🇭🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿⭐

[@mikepopelka2349]

I know I bought my T120 because I wanted one but couldn’t have one in the late sixties. Nostalgia and love of new technology have spurred me on.

[@obi1kahnobee549]

The new BSA's are in name only your Thunderbolt and my Firebird are real BSA's end of story.

[@dezmondwhitney1208]

Maybe part of the reason for buying one of these bikes is a feeling of nostalgia for times past in the UK?

[@Rugbyman269]

They’re known names, and that’s it .

[@windmilljohn]

It must be to attract sales. I still don’t understand Norton. Maybe if the ‘new’ Norton company had produced affordable sensible models, maybe…… I’ve just bought a 350 Royal Enfield Hunter. Me! A man who fully understood carb internals and points. Me, who swore I’d never go electronic…. What a bike! Twin shocks, a ride that is very reminiscent of the 70s… Ooer, gone off topic! I agree Paul. I hope my comments about Norton don’t offend.

[@borderlands6606]

Badge engineering goes back a long way. AMC building AJS and James, Vincent's use of HRD, and so on. The BSA Bantam was based on a DKW design acquired in war reparations and continued by MZ, whose racing technology was purloined by Suzuki. Royal Enfield have been made in India longer than they were built in Britain (if my maths are correct). RE were building living fossils with their cast iron engine bikes until fairly recently, and the new air-cooled models still have continuity of naming for engines. The Mahindra BSA doesn't float my boat, though I think it's a perfectly respectable water-cooled Rotax single. It's the Gold Star name that doesn't fit, like Tata Jaguar bringing out an E-Type people carrier.

[@niallsommerville9813]

Grandad made me laugh too, couldn't agree more, even though I'm a serial Hinckley owner. A close family friend owned the local Honda motorcycle franchise. During a social conversation in the early 90's I mentioned that I was seriously considering buying a Trident having seen the build quality. He dismissed my enthusiasm out of hand with the explanation that the cycle parts, electrics and other parts were all of Asian origin (Nissin, Nikko, Denso, Mikuni, Showa etc.) He stuttered considerably when I pointed out that the Hondas he was selling were built with those self same components. We're still friends and I still have many Hinckley Triumphs. Don't start me on McVities biscuits! Sympathetic rant over, I'll get my coat off it's shoogly peg (that's the overpriced Italian Jacket with the Belstaff label).

[@andrewslattery403]

A rose by any other name? Perhaps an enterprising entrepreneur might start making reproduction BSA 500cc DBD34s or Royal Enfield 736cc Interceptors. They might then have earned the right to their modern tank badges.

[@750triton]

It's the model names they use that annoys me somewhat. Bonneville, Gold Star, Daytona etc. These names were earned. Although the Bonneville required 2 engines to earn the title and the Daytona winner was very different to those produced by the factory, those 2 could easily be modified to race. The original Goldie earned it's badge too - Blue Star, Empire star, Silver star, it had pedigree. They were all road burners. Exhausts, cams, carbs, seats, handlebars and footrests could all be bought to turn the standard road bike, in to a clubmans racer. The current Gold Star is a shadow of the original concept and more like an old man's rose tinted specs version

[@philrulon]

I agree with your continuity argument regarding Royal Enfield. I would note that Bloor did hire some ex-Meriden technical people when he bought Triumph and they had a hand in designing the first of the Hinkley bikes. Add to that, the Harris Bonnevilles, which were built under a Bloor license. Considering these, I think a reasonable argument can be made that there is some continuity in the Triumph brand as well. As for the others, it’s just the badge and nothing more.

[@jefftingle8131]

Well put Paul 🪦

[@shug831]

It's like Rolls Royce "cars," which owned by VW and engined by BMW. Just crazy to say it's the same as it was in the past.

[@SLED-55]

Marketing Engineering at its best!👍

[@damiantuttle1348]

😂😂😂😂 absolutely spot on the money 100% Paul and well done for saying it...all probably fine bikes in their own right but whats really irritating are these so called ' KZbin big noises' .. demi gods and know all types on here ( you know who I mean) that just will not accept they have anything other than a 'brand name word play phoney imitation, pale at that, bike for old gammons with knackered hips and knees or wannabe pretender rockers . It's a 650 Mahindra motorcycle with a 650 Rotax engine....period .

[@cbrider726]

I totally agree with you . Once a company goes out of business then that's it .Its surprising that people will buy from a dead brand anyway? gone bust once go bust again and then where are you with your new bike. Its loosing money like rain . No one wants a bike that's branded as gone out of business . I would say though that Royal Enfield are one of the only ones who can say that's its still an Enfield. Great thought provoking stream Paul.

[@raythirkettle4155]

Have to grin when I see one of those shitty little Chinese cars with an MG badge on!

[@norsehall309]

G'day Paul, your spot on, our Classic club had a Empire tour, British made bikes only, and we had trouble with the owner of Modern, Norton, Triumph, Royal Enfield and One BSA 650 wanting to be on the ride, was asked them to be marshals some agreed some cracked the shits, 2025 run up to 1978 only, after that forget it, cheers mate, Neil 🤠.

[@philmuskett265]

It's just trading on the good name of tried and trusted products, hey. Same way as you probably will never see another ship with the name Titanic!!!

[@bobbyblueace]

Why get hung up on it? If you like the product, buy one. If you don't, then don't.

[@mervynprice7009]

Loved your waffle. As regards any connections. Triumph, they sold the land the factory was on to finance the company building the modern bikes. Apparently that is the connection. P & M they made all the lugs & things which held the frames together ? Also, they held the patents on using the cylinder as the front down tube. RE, They held the patents for the brake drums & cush hubs. So things were never as we thought. With regard to using old names. I think it is done because it is so much more difficult to start with a new name than using an old one. Using Gold Star for a touring bike is one liberty to far. So no surprise to see it is backfiring on them. Had they called it the B650, it would have been fine, it certainly is no Gold Star. A more laughingstock. I have just watched a review on one saying it is quite a good touring bike.

[@dinsdalepiranah1189]

Had thet called it the B33 maybe it would have been different.

[@tomlowe4585]

Spot on Paul ! I hate the term, but.. if you know, you know😉. I cannot afford an original gold star, does that mean I'd buy the cheap modern version, and be happy ? Let me think ..... nah. As my dad always said,... ignorance is bliss ! Keep up the good (real) work . 👍

[@-old-school-motorcyclesltd]

Hi Paul 😊😊 I’m. Fan of your Channel I have an original G2 Bullet and 4 original BSA’s along with a pre war 500cc side valve it doesn’t bother me about what anyone thinks about the new Gold Star I have because I’m only 60 and don’t remember the old days of BSA I just enjoy the old bikes I have and the new retro BSA bike I have no issues with anyone’s opinion😊😊 I love the V twin you have behind you I’ve seen a few on Andy Tiernans site would love to ride one of those one day 😎look forward to seeing you ride that .. are you using the valve lifter to start that and is it slack advance I can’t tell on that Mag I can usually Left hand Slack advance, right hand tight advance 😊😊 Great chat all the best phil green

[@marcheighton6436]

Just buying into nostalgia hands up I'm guilty too I bought an interceptor. Would have bought an old interstate but the inty was possibly more reliable and modern and new but looked the part. Don't get me wrong I would still love the Norton but I can't afford a good one but the inty will probably see me out 👍👍👍

[@stevepage2541]

It's like a form of 'badge engineering' really,the most offensive example of which (to me,at least) had to be the relaunched Matchy G80 of...er,1987? That the proud Matchless name should appear on such a disparate collection of componentry - aargh, sacrilege! A decent enough machine in it's own right (according to the owner reports) but a Matchless it really wasn't...😮

[@chrispomphrett4283]

I'll stick with my old Bantam. In 50 years it stands a chance of still running and be repairable whereas the electronic stuffed modern BSA won't and will have been forgotten....

[@4speed3pedals]

When someone buys the rights to the name, thy have privy to all the names used. Triumph is probably the best of the bunch of regenerated names. I had hopes for Norton but that floundered a couple times and BSA, I never expect to see it rise but in niche markets. Lets just enjoy the actual pieces. I have an '05 Speed Triple and my 1968 Bonneville which I purchased in 1973, and I have a Quaiff 5 speed because I did not know the later 5 speed parts could be used in the 4 speed case. Salty it was. It even has a set of Triumph TT Dragster camshafts that Tri-Cor in Towson Maryland used to sell to racers. Modern cams outperform it but it is a respectable running bike. Long live the King and English motorcycles.

[@tonym4432]

Got to agree , that Grandad reference was funny ..... It`s almost as if things have gone full circle ...... The German immigrant ( and later mayor of Coventry ) who decided to import push bikes to cash in on the bicycle boom during the 1890`s chose the name Triumph to stick on his imports , as he reckoned it was a name that people would understand and connect with ....... Now we have people importing Chinese 125`s and sticking names like AJS on these imports , as they reckon it is a name that people will understand and connect with ......... AJS is going to go down better than Quang Dong Wong , or whatever ......... Then of course , as you say Paul , we have Benellis ; BSA`s ; Triumphs ; even Harley Davidsons ( if you like that sort of thing ) , plus many more , which have no connection at all with their place of birth ....... BSA was an engineering colossus , one of the truly great companies of the world ....... Some might consider a bike made in India fitted with a Rotax engine and having a BSA badge stuck on it , to be an insult to the memory of that company ...... Unfortunately , It`s just the way of the world , nowadays .........

[@johnwood4448]

These names you mention,and few more besides,should have the word "psuedo" in front of them,the present Goldstar is no more a Goldstar than I am Usain Bolt.......

[@peterfox3989]

Paul would it be safe to say you would not buy a Welsh HJH Dragon if someone decided to resurrect the marque ?

[@hermangibbs8163]

Well said. Thanks.

[@stevec-b6214]

I don`t get it either, a fried of mine who has a decent collection of British built bikes, immediately bought a new `gold star`. I was surprised as he doesn`t ride ANY of his bikes anyway. Like you, I don`t really care what people buy, but wonder how many mahindra 650 singles would be bought?

[@p--n]

I guess the only tenuous links to the names of old remain in people's affections and companies capitalise on that. I can't for the life of me see anyone trying to resurrect the BENDA name 50yrs hence.

[@martinowl]

It’s all down to getting the public to buy a product. Brand names are just another commodity that can be bought & sold. If a business believes using an old brand name it owns will help it to sell more product than an unknown brand name, then they will use it , on a product, totally unrelated to the original.

[@frankenstein-r7g]

I was always insulted by exactly that. Ok, build your Triumph, Norton, BSA, whatever....but they are NOT Bonnevilles, Commandos, or Goldstars....come on. At the very least my Indian is a Darkhorse. I like your post. 😊

[@billykershaw2781]

It's like when Marston's bought a load of great independent brewers, then slapped the same label on a generic poor imitation....a modern beer....if you get my draught!

[@neilmcintosh1200]

Odd that Norman, Sun, Tandon, New Hudson and Ambassador, are not to be found in current showrooms. They were equally part of the same scene the rose tints seem to dwell on. Norman's B4 was a pretty smart 250 factory cafe racer, just as attractive as Enfields Continental GT, but most folk will remember their Nippy.

[@niallsommerville9813]

Francis Barnet anyone, oh wait a second, I think that's already been done.

[@billykershaw2781]

And then you have the other end of the spectrum, original everything......if a Mikuni carb makes your old bike better, fit it...!!

[@brockett]

Or is it because the 'new' company wants a familiar name to attract some attention. I recall early Suzuki's had lights stamped 'Stanley' even though they were made in Japan. The current BSA is made by a huge engineering company that is only now realising just how difficult it is to make a reliable motorcycle and also getting the quality control regimes from componemt suppliers.

[@chriscrookson8524]

I guess if I was going to invest millions in manufacturing a new bike, tagging a name onto it like BSA or AJS, might give it a better chance of success, rather than calling it a Mahindra or a Yangsong. I can understand that, but none of us who have owned the originals would ever be fooled into thinking that there was the slightest connection between them. I do however own a Yamaha SR400 which still has its origins in the Original XT500 from the mid seventies, one of which I owned and loved.

[@borderlands6606]

One of the reasons Japanese manufacturers haven't been able to exploit their back catalogue to the same extent as British brands, is so much of it was 2-stroke. If it was legal to make Yamaha and Suzuki 350 and 500 air-cooled twins, the market would be all over them.

[@chriscrookson8524]

@@borderlands6606 Indeed! I'd be first in line for a Kawasaki Triple 😄

[@nickaxe771]

I feel Triumph and Royal Enfield do have a real connection with the brand names they have.....nothing others I can think of do....I stand to be corrected. John Bloor took over Triumph soon after the factory closed.....kept the brand in production going bar a very short spell during reorganisation....John is a life long fan and owner of many triumph motorcycles before buying and saving the Triumph Brand Name. I think John should be knighted for his services to British Motor Cycling.....TRIUMPH IS MORE SUCCESSFUL NOW THAN EVER IN ITS LONG HISTORY. RE had the Indian building connection with RE GB well before the brand ceased in the UK....so it never ceased in India. Part of the problem why Triumph BSA failed in the first place....they didnt update.....or keep up with changing legislation How on earth would a bike that has to conform with modern euro 4 and 5 nonsense be anything like an old air-cooled machine from say the 60s......it would not be allowed on the roads today..... Look at Fords American Mustang and several other car names from long ago.........still in production now since the 60s in Fords case.....is it anything like a 60s Mustang.....of course not.....things move on.....if they didn't.....the MUSTANG BRAND WOULD HAVE FAILED MANY YEARS AGO. We should be proud that these 2 famous brands are flying high around the world Triumph and RE.....flying the flag. But I like you Paul feel uneasy resurrecting a product long gone and last built 50+ years ago or more AJS BSA ect ect. P.S> I did the Triumph Factory Tour a few years ago.....there is an old guy still working in the Hinkley plant thats still building Triumphs machines.....and the heart of every Triumph Bike Built aboard.....the Crank and Cam. Anyway the old guy is his 70s I think is a machinist to this day with Triumph and from the old factory....I chatted to him next to his old British Lath.

[@williamnethercott4364]

Fair comment and a reasonable point of view. Is it worth trying to explain where I stand on this subject? I don't know but here goes. I'm not disagreeing with you, also I'm not in the market for a new bike. I can see the continuity with RE and If I wanted a new bike, I would consider theirs but I preferred the old British made versions. With AJS, the continuity is there but less obvious and if I wanted a learner-legal bike for someone, I would probably buy one of theirs (the Bilston looks good) and I'm happy that they're keeping the AJS brand alive with what seem like decent products, even if they are manufactured abroad (my AJS is a Plumstead product). BSA is more difficult, I find the new "Gold Star" interesting but don't tell me it has any real connection with Small Heath. The same principle holds for Brough Superior and, to a lesser extent, Norton and Triumph, even though they are replicating the style of the old products and the latter two have some operations in the UK. The modern Ariel is an Ariel in name only. I understand there may still be hope for Dot but what has happened to Matchless is a real shame!

[@PeterWW-W]

Hi Paul, from my point of view there are only 2 names who are realy based on old ones. The Royal Enfield with his longer overlapping productions and with bikes in the old design and more modern versions. And then Triumph, with some bumpies continued more or less its production . The rest....hmmm.

[@grateberk6435]

They made a GT50 too, Italian engine like in a Fantic, which were quite fast

[@paulhenshaw4514]

Yes, I had the trail styled one called the Brigand, but very similar, with the same engine. The Beaver was the road version and the Boxer was the unrestricted road version.

[@grateberk6435]

@@paulhenshaw4514 👍

[@russelltaylor7779]

Just because someone has the rights to a name does not mean that their product had anything to do with the original manufacturer. If you are going to produce a product then do it on its own merits and not link it to a past product by name only. They are not BSA.

[@AaaaandAction]

5:56 Malenotti ?

[@DrRobert7898]

The Indians or Chinese bought the names

[@alexmutimer3691]

I often think it would be nice if say royal enfield made a small light weight bike, l would buy it. Nothing to do with topic, hey ho. Happy saturday.

[@deltabluesdavidraye]

That said i would like a new BSA 650 goldstar.

[@4ager505]

I'm as mystified as you (or anybody else) by the current branding practices. It seems people have always been willing to commit questionable acts where money was involved, and I don't see that improving in the newer generations. Another thing which may not be common with bikes, but apparently acceptable in automobile lines is cross branding, or cross badging. You can purchase the same automobile (possibly some few minor differences) in different brand names (marques ?) from different dealerships. Very confusing at times.

[@keithwilson1408]

Sadly famous brand names stay In people's memories. Black and decker is another one, worst one for me is indian, nothing like the real bikes.

[@oldiggy]

Bangladeshi small arms.

[@paulhenshaw4514]

Nice one!

[@bluesman3794]

Triumph has done a good job, but as far as I’m concerned when they shortened the stroke of the bonneville , changed the valve train and even the firing stroke to 270 to fake the sound, then to add insult to injury moved production out of England, the blew it. Of course most of the people who purchase these don’t know anything about these specs, nor do they care. But to me at least retaining stroke and valve train for easy maintenance using modern metallurgy Triumph could have retained some soul. Saying that, I have had two modern 865s and they are so smooth that they lack character and are about boring. I had the america and now I have the t-100, thinking the 360 degree firing order/stroke would be closer to the original. Was given a ‘98 Vulcan 800 and this bike is was more pleasing to ride. I had a ‘72 T120 for a few years when I was in my late teens and I loved that bike, even had a certain smell when it ran.

[@deltabluesdavidraye]

Good job? I don't think their reliability is anywhere near good

[@bluesman3794]

@ the 865 motors have been reliable at least the ones in the US. As far as their other motors, the early small triples were known to be junk. I can’t speak on the others. Also good job as in bringing the Triumph brand back like Polaris did with Indian.

[@erik_dk842]

"even had a certain smell *_when_* it ran.

[@bluesman3794]

@@erik_dk842 when I ran it. Lol. The ‘72 never let me down.

[@niallsommerville9813]

@@bluesman3794 Although I'd agree with much of what you've said, I don't agree that the early "small" triples T300/400 (750, 885, 998 & 1180cc?) "were known to be junk". I have no idea where that came from, considering the numbers that they sold in and the longevity, especially with some of the treatment of owners have "lavished" on them, I'd say that would indicate otherwise and certainly if they hadn't been such a success, the modern Bonneville range would not have come about.

[@elobiretv]

i think Triumph get a bit of a pass because at least they make some great modern bikes and dont totally rely on the brand name and classic styling to sell bikes like BSA and Enfield are doing. Nobody ever considers the Chinese stuff like AJS to be the same company either, but it seems to be whenever an Indian company buys the name everyone pretends like it's the original company once again.

[@billymechanic]

lol triumph speed triple, Kawasaki must of had alot of engines about even the 675 at close look you'd think it was a Kawasaki with a missing cylinder truth is there not Made in Britain only assembled! but at least when they have a fault, in true British tradition they all have the same fault 🤣

[@dasp125]

That new gold star is a load of rubbish. I hated it when I test rode it. The Royal Enfield Interceptor 650 is a way better bike. I tend to stick to pre 80’s bikes now.

[@Desertfox170]

Nearly agree with all that you said apart from royal Enfield being one of the oldest motorbikes everybody knows the oldest motorbike was mentioned in the Bible Moses said let' triumph be heard all over the world😂

[@nickmarshall9192]

India started making parts for royal Enfield bullets in 1953 They gradually increased production until building complete machines I don't think there are any links between triumph motorcycles and the new triumph motorcycles?

[@AaaaandAction]

Or Norton

[@p--n]

BSA unveils "new" Bantam 😉 kzbin.info/www/bejne/n5mldnqKZZmModksi=MUolBN-t9xDXC4Qp