Pekora & Marine Talk - Relation with others that changed in past 1 year

[@naturallynatori]

Just to bring some clarity to a lot of the back in forth in these comments, I wanted to do a 'quick' write up on internalized homophobia. Hopefully anyone who reads this come away with some new perspective and/or having learned something. To start, the textbook definition of internalized homophobia is "the gay person’s direction of negative social attitudes toward the self". And while it may sound like some sort of rare issue, this is actually extremely common in LGBTQ+ individuals, simply due to the environments they are raised in and/or live in. Anecdotally, to my knowledge, I have not met a single LGBTQ+ person who hasn't struggled with internalized homophobia/transphobia in one way or another at some point in their life. Not to say that such people don't exist, just for a little insight on how common it really is. Per Pew research from 2013, the average age most non-het people realize they are, in fact, not hetero is the age of 12. As you may imagine, or have experienced, twelve years is A LOT of time to develop some extremely negative views on the LGBTQ+ crowd, especially when you grow up in a culture where your sexuality is not openly accepted. And especially when you are young and have no other basis to judge what you are taught against. I mean, how can you truly believe that being gay is okay when the government tells you it isn't? How can being gay be okay when your pastor tells you that gay people will go to hell? How can being gay be okay when your dad talks about how much he hates gay people? How can being gay be okay when your doctor tells you it's wrong? When put into these scenarios, we have no choice but develop defenses to protect ourselves. Things like: "It is/was just a phase." "I'm gay, but not like the weird kind of gay, you know?" "I'm sure I just haven't met the right (insert opposite sex here) yet." "Yeah, idk, I got like a 7 on the Kinsey scale, but I'm def straight." "I was only gay because of XYZ." And so on and so forth. Of course, most of these are rooted in the rejection of the self, which is why internalized homophobia is pretty much never healthy. They are also why "they're not gay, they said so themselves" is such a trip (I, for one, love being lectured on sexuality by 17 year old cis-het weebs). FYI: The best way to deal with internalized homophobia is love and support. No amount of aggression and hate will make a person hate themselves any less (or love themselves any more). I want to make this clear: do not attack people with internalized homophobia. It will never lead to anything good or productive. Anyways, as a closing statement, internalized homophobia does NOT in any way, shape, or form, make you a bad person. Nor is it an insult. So if someone was to say that Marine may have a bit of internalized homophobia, please take into consideration everything above before immediately dropping an insulting (and most likely poorly formed) reply.

[@certifiedpossum8655]

🏳️‍🌈 hell ya bröther. Thanks for letting others know about this. Internalized queerphobia is a bitch

[@yum9918]

I love when someone writes an insightful, well founded and thoughtful post... and then someone complaining of censorship, with an 88 in their nick, writes multiple post long statements that ammount to "nuh uh".

[@kathartik9000]

Freedom of choice. Let people decide who they really are and support them for their decision.

[@doctorb3636]

The thing that I understand from this is u're gay..

[@Shock_Yang]

The problem is not all people that say internalized homophobia knows that it is not meant as an insult, because they have simply seen it being used, but have not heard what you just told us, so no you are sadly mistaken some people would use it as an insult.

[@kaoru288]

I like to think how Okakoro is your highscool/young adult lovey dovey phase, noefure is your adult romance, and kanacoco is that after-marriage comfort with one another after being together for years

[@Rar830]

That is so spot on

[@merinMeriyarin]

*PLEASE READ THE PINNED COMMENT* y'all really need to stop thinking about this shit too far lmao TL Note 2:03 reference joke to ３年目の浮気 kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y4XYd6SMgamrkLc Noel Flare definitely has the biggest impact for them because they're from the same generation KanataCoco and NoelFlare sure is the main lead pair in holo now lol

[@naturallynatori]

And you can even tell the gap between those two couples based on Pekora's reactions. "Noel and Flare are gay." = "Yeah, I can't believe their relationship actually ended up this serious." "Coco and Kanata are gay." = "Yeah, they're pretty teetee I guess."

[@merinMeriyarin]

@@naturallynatori that or pekora just doesn't really know KanaCoco well, that's why the time reaction took a bit longer than her response to Noel Flare lol

[@naturallynatori]

@@merinMeriyarin True true.

[@sheleeeee]

i swear hololive is making every female viewers turn into lesbians, including me wwwwwwww

[@moonlitpebbles4778]

jokes on you, I was already gay to begin with xD

[@butterkukki]

@@moonlitpebbles4778 LOL xD

[@sheleeeee]

@@moonlitpebbles4778 there's that too. i guess people like you watch hololive because it contains only girls in it XD

[@yoursonisold8743]

@@sheleeeee A significant chunk of the female Hololive audience seems to be that way, at least from what I've seen on Twitter.

[@merinMeriyarin]

welcome~

[@vinhny2406]

Marine Lesbian confirm no wonder why she have so many though about Hololive on Hololive doujin

[@star2683]

Just writing this even if nobody sees it, eventually it could help someone. Articles on wikipedia about "Biology and sexual orientation" and "Sexual fluidity" are an informative read, although I doubt people passing through will be doing so. "Sexual orientation is stable and unchanging for the vast majority of people, but some research indicates that some people may experience change in their sexual orientation, and this is more likely for women than for men." So sexuality is fluid and could be changed, but that's *quite* rare and it's not a scientific fact. The LGBT community and whoever is informed rightfully assume that sexuality is stable, but may undergo slight variance throughout one person's life because 99,99999% of the time it's true and applies to everyone. But you can read about people slightly changing their preferences: bisexuals that may lean more towards the same sex or the opposite sex variably, or people that thought they were het realising later in life that they were bi/gay because of various reasons. For instance, Bi-curiosity is a different story: straight people who are curious/open about experiencing with a different sex than their preferred one. This is often the case of people who were "gay" and become Straight after realising they did not, in fact, like people of the same genre. Also, *"The scientific consensus is that sexual orientation is not a choice"* so you can't just change your sexuality on the fly and being gay is not just a "phase" you waltz through. Thinking otherwise is very harmful and people die because many still think "why can't you just be normal" or "it's your choice to be like that". That said, the pinned comment explains the consequences very well and why people may think that Marine is repressed/hasn't realised yet. Obviously only she knows herself, but due to how common this "change" in gay people actually derives from internalised homophobia, many, who I assume are informed about the LGBT community, think that may be the case for Marine (her insisting that her environment was the cause of her past gay tendencies and that she has now quit liking girls is a perfect example). People taking her words for complete truth because she thinks it's true and snapping at others who assume the contrary is kinda pretentious.

[@roge220]

This is really informative! Thank you -peko!

[@emperor5228]

There sure has been a lot of changes in Homolive/Erolive especially the couplings or ships. Way back then it was Marine x Rushia, Matsuri x Luna (it's not the same anymore in my opinion), Haachama x Watame and so on, but then we got a another one whom they get along to. As Pekora and Marine said, we never expected NoeFure to get *THAT* serious in a Crossick level. It's amusing that Pekora asked if *THEY'RE* lesbians. Sometimes I don't know what's going on, but Pekora and Marine be spilling the good stuff in Hololive, lol. Gossip girls.

[@merinMeriyarin]

this totally sounds weird for me to say this but i can't fully support Noel x Flare since Marine is the only one who always invite Flare to collab, to hang out, and she prefers someone like that. Noel being really passive really makes Flare anxious, i know how's that feel tho. their triangle love which started from joke is getting serious too recently lol

[@merinMeriyarin]

can't say they're on Crossick level unless Flare/Noel know each others guardians/parents even with marriage ring honestly. lol

[@emperor5228]

@@merinMeriyarin Well that's understandable and I guess we will just have to see what's gonna happen in the future.

[@yoursonisold8743]

@@merinMeriyarin I thought you said that you meant it as a pair, not as a couple? As a couple Marine is not suited for Flare. And their "love triangle" is not getting serious. What the heck merin?

[@merinMeriyarin]

@@yoursonisold8743 hahaha when i said that, 4/5 days ago? there's a new trigger event after that, and it makes me really confused their love triangle is getting serious is true though, Marine even ask a rude for Noel question "who do you choose if Noel wasn't here?" to Flare, Joking or not it's definitely a rude question.

[@Red9san]

It's pretty disappointing that people in the comments are using Marine's words to push an ideology one way or the other. She ain't no sociology professor. She's just an entertainer speaking about anecdotal events in her own life. Don't deny her life experiences just so you can hit someone over the proverbial head with them.

[@Mitulaa]

I really wish someone would translate that entire stream, it's just chock full of great stuff from start to finish xD

[@Zefo_No]

3:06 Usually Pekora would hit Marine with the tsukkomi here, but like that time when she asked Noel, she seems interested in the subject to some level.

[@dariuspemula]

Pekora, how could you forget the moon and the chicken?

[@yoursonisold8743]

They mostly talked about PekoMiko during this stream.

[@Zefo_No]

to be fair, the question was how relationship's changed for them, moona-kiara are new people in her life.

[@badtiming2208]

2:30 Throwback to the Ark days when Pekora had to seriously ask if NoelxFlare was a serious thing because she wasn't actually sure just how serious they were or were not. Wasn't actually there myself, I just remember a clip.

[@Tiffany_29]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/eaHEYWCCp7qIh9E

[@otter.0001]

3 years of infidelity reminds me of the duet of my forbidden ship, mariflare cough- thank you for the translation!

[@merinMeriyarin]

ah yes, the iconic song that Marine and Flare sung on their first off-collab karaoke and then Noel mad at them for choosing that song lmao

[@FrankToasty]

Um is that the song Luna and Matsuri sang yesterday?

[@otter.0001]

@@FrankToasty Yes, same song. Their redition of it was hilarious

[@mogumofu5194]

Can you guys please give me the link, I'm curious :>

[@otter.0001]

@@mogumofu5194 kzbin.info/www/bejne/eoe8XqKelr2egpI for the mariflare song, kzbin.info/www/bejne/kGanopWZi5d0p8k for the clip where noel gets jealous of them singing it w

[@RavensEagle]

Thanks for translating ❤️

[@merinMeriyarin]

glad you like it!

[@fujiakishion5884]

the real deal is on different level

[@VenoSupport]

Yuri is peace, Yuri is life

[@kathartik9000]

Remember kids, yuri sells

[@JohnnyPetsCats]

Shion from the start! Garlic thinks she's slick denying the suck sucky story!

[@nixien1496]

So with myself and my sexuality I have nearly no libido, I'm not prudish at all I just very rarely if ever hunger for sexual action I'm always happy just hugging but my partners always want more in romantic relationships and I just go along with what they want. Doesn't bother me but I don't desire it either. In terms of what tiny attraction I have I suspect I might have a slight attraction to women (I'm a woman myself) or I'm Bisexual. I'm generally pretty social (I do the typical marine thing of dragging all the introverts out to social occasions) and have a broad social group that is typically male dominated. In practice this means I only ever have Heterosexual relationships. I had one female x female relationship when I was a teen that ended when she fell for a guy and fell out of love with me. But it's not a "phase" like I might be tempted to say but simple gender role and societal pressure. The socially capable men of my male dominated hobby groups end up courting and dating me, They are governed by a strong attraction to me I make clear I have a low libido and it doesn't matter much to them generally. However whenever I wonder if I like a girl those times I'm not in a relationship. 1: She's often unavailable as I'm competing against those same socially capable men. 2: My low libido gives me pause as I don't even know if I'm really attracted to said girl. (I dunno I think she's pretty... that's about it) Currently I'm happily in a relationship with a guy, He's completely head over heels in love with me and I'm very fond of him despite my nil physical attraction to him (That I have made clear) Society places huge pressure to pair individuals like myself up in binary Heterosexual relationships although I'm sure I could be happy with a woman but there's little space to let such things come to pass nominally.

[@TosiakiS]

Please ignore epiccarrot88, who is a bigot as is made clear by calling being gay a sin.

[@ablanket691]

You are ok with sexual stuff but not into it right? Then ig you might be asexual, who is ok with sex. You could be biromantic asexual.

[@花よりだんご-u3v]

I think marine is well past the age where she can draw on her high school experiences and should talk to actual gay people lmao

[@B-System]

Her experiences are valid?

[@ordinarytree4678]

@B System just because an anecdote is valid doesnt mean she is an expert, especially if she is not openly gay herself.

[@zheden8200]

lol a lot of people putting words on marine's mouth here on the comments, no joking, but this pissed me of

[@zheden8200]

@@epiccarrot88 this, I really can't take people implying that what she said was something terrible, because she just give her opinion based in what she lived, and theres nothing wrong about that, even because everybody takes conclusion based on their own experiences throughout life, I just thinks it's wrong make someone looks like a bad person for that (srry for the bad english)

[@donloder1]

ironically I don't see anyone objecting noelflare. shows that ppl arr really picky about even their own statement.

[@TosiakiS]

What's truly sad is how anti-gay bigots like epiccarrot88 are still allowed to comment here.

[@nest9909]

For someone who also went to an all girls school, i agree with what she said xD

[@nest9909]

@@epiccarrot88 im bi now. thanks for telling me that btw

[@yoursonisold8743]

@@epiccarrot88 And you are the cause of 90% of it.

[@TosiakiS]

Just a heads up, epiccarrot88 is a homophobe as is made clear in many other comments on this and other videos where where anti-gay bigoted remarks were made. Please ignore and/or block this user.

[@nest9909]

@@TosiakiS thanks for reminding me. I've read some comments that he argues with other people. disgusting shit 🤮

[@yamusan9081]

Me Watching clip: lol marine is really funny. Reading comments: yikes!so many experts.

[@yahooperfecto4470]

2:30 Cuando Peko habla en serio.

[@AnActualDinosaur]

"It only takes two years of being around only girls to become a lesbian" - Marine I swear, for as open, in touch with her emotions etc as Marine is, I still think she's a repressed lesbian (or bi). Marine, nobody "turned you" lesbian in high school, girl lol. Also, I like that they're starting to admit that NoeFlare is a real thing. As much as I enjoy all the shipping that goes on, I think it's weird that some people can't tell the difference between the average playful silly flirting and a real couple. I mean, they bought custom-fitted, expensive, literal marriage rings with each other's names engraved in them!

[@pizzadoog]

Okay but let’s not put words in people’s mouths

[@KalilIllinois]

I don't think she was being serious, I'm 80% sure she was just joking

[@Squidward-jv7go]

Let’s interpret Marine’s random (no offense) unofficially translated comments from a random stream where she’s playing a character and trying to entertain and scrutinise it for no reason and judge her based on that

[@atlarge4968]

Oh, she's definitely bi

[@mattsquaaaared]

Senchou never fails to disappoint with her stories 👌

[@harvs.1527]

tf is up with this comment section lol

[@C.Ashcroft]

Ok what's with these comments?

[@okaycool5145]

These comments are not it lmao Why is there so many long-ass paragraphs

[@mogumofu5194]

Wt- is this comments? I know that you guys don't like what marine talking about lesbian but please don't hate marine just because of this, and also Marine is Marine, You guys have your opinion and Marine does. -Stop Hating Marine‼️

[@-Raylight]

I think Senchou is right, if you're hanging out with girls too much you're going to love them and become lesbian It might have been a joke, but she might have a point xD I mean Hololive members rarely collab with others especially opposite gender, unlike Nijisanji and Holostars. So might as well lol. Except Pekora, she's keeping her straight-ness xD

[@lalalala3203]

Well if they started to like girls that means they weren't that straight before so most of them are bi but they still don't know. A true straight person can't be gay because they only feel attracted to the opposite sex.

[@yoursonisold8743]

You are absolutely wrong. And your first mistake is to assume that these girls dont have contact with men, just because they dont collab with men much on streams.

[@kudryfume4667]

Are you saying that if you have a job where there is no person of the opposite sex, you become gay? It doesn't work like that xd

[@yoursonisold8743]

@@epiccarrot88 The fact that you know nothing suggests you shouldnt make claims. There are literally Hololive members in relationships with men _right now_ . This entire line of argumentation is a farce. Marine herself may have no male contact outside of Hololive staff members or relatives, but that's just how she lives her life.

[@yoursonisold8743]

@@epiccarrot88 And? They exist nontheless. Did you think people didnt know who these girls were before Hololive? I am merely pointing out how asinine your logic is. I'm not going to give you any specifics. The idea that these girls dont have contact with men is just straight up wrong.

[@ignoreworld1762]

I disagree what Marine said. You can't be gay if you aren't. From what I understand is Marine was already les/bi but spending time with girls made her realize. Not sure why she's blaming on being surrounded by them but I hope one day she realizes.

[@merinMeriyarin]

but environment also could affected to your sexual preference though, it can be changed or even stay the same as before.

[@ignoreworld1762]

That only works on bisexual. If someone is really straight/gay I don't think they could change so easily.

[@yoursonisold8743]

This. Although the stereotype of all-girls schools being full of lesbians is rooted in a certain phenomenon. During puberty hormones run wild and bi-curiosity rises even in mixed environments. But if there is no outlet other than the same sex, it does heighten the bi-curious reaction of the body even more. So to put it in layman's terms... you become so horny that your body may react even to someone outside your sexuality. BUT, and this is really important, those people are not actually gay or bi. Once the hormones stabilize they will fall back into their hetero preferences. They didnt "become" lesbian and this phenomenon doesnt really happen outside of puberty and menopause. Also the grand majority of women do not have any strong case of this. There are plenty of super straight girls at all-girls schools. I 100% agree with you that Marine figured out that she is bi during school and tried to justify it to herself by blaming it on her environment.

[@merinMeriyarin]

@@ignoreworld1762 yep, that explain the girls that rejected Marine during her High School

[@kudryfume4667]

there are many studies that say that women are more fluid sexually.

[@yoursonisold8743]

I dont think anybody could have predicted NoeFlare in the first few months. Not least of all because they kept saying it was just an act for a while lol As for Shion, I have no idea why she would act more guarded around Marine of all people, it's a real mystery... (´∀`;) I just wish Marine would stop spreading this dumb stigma about all-girls schools or her pseudo-theory on how girls become lesbians. It kinda annoys me, because it is so wrong. All-girls schools do have higher rate of bi-curiousity (puberty will do that to teenagers), but you dont "become" lesbian. There are so many straight girls at all-girls schools going on and on about their boyfriends or their celebrity crushes etc. Just because you dont meet guys at school doesnt mean you are deprived of all male contact. In truth, Marine probably just sees it like that because her time at the all-girls school made her realize her interest in women, so she blames it on the school environment.

[@merinMeriyarin]

yes, the Girls School make her realizes, not turn her into one.

[@AnActualDinosaur]

It's a crappy old stereotype indeed, but I feel like Marine herself is a victim in this case. She was clearly brainwashed by that super religious christian high school (and/or whatever other influences of her previous life) into thinking gayness isn't a real thing or super rare or whatever, so much so that she can't accept her own. Like I said in another comment, hopefully being around people who are more honest with themselves and who can accept gay relationships as a serious thing (ie NoeFlare) will allow Marine to grow out of those outdated stereotypes.

[@yoursonisold8743]

@@AnActualDinosaur You dont even have to blame it on the school itself really, it's Japanese society in general that is not LGBT friendly and has been engaging in public erasure for centuries. Then there is the extra layer of Marine being a hardcore fujoshi, so her mind is already wired towards same sex being this exploitative fantasy thing. And I dont think NoelFlare can really help her there. She watches their relationship with the exact same eyes, like it's a special thing. Hololive, while being a good work place overall, is also kind of a bad place for a lesbain/bisexual who isnt out of the closet. The way this industry engages with yuribait reinforces the notion that it's make-believe sadly. Not to mention you dont wanna upset the simps. Not everyone can be Miko and be open about it and still appeal to them. What Marine needs is some proper education on the topic. There are actually organizations in Japan that help teens or young adults with advice on these things. But Marine is relatively old by now and probably stuck in her ways. You cant get help if you dont think you need any.

[@AnActualDinosaur]

​ @Yourson Isold Yeah, I get that she sees NoeFlare with the same eyes, but I mean that she's really close to them, so hopefully as they become more of an open couple (in terms of it not being a secret) Marine will talk to them about their relationship (cause she's very curious/nosy like that) and learn a thing or two. The two of them are already kinda teaching viewers some things about it (eg there's a clip with them explaining how looking at them as "husband" and "wife" is wrong, cause that's not how their dynamic works, they're equal), so it's Marine's best hope of growing, cause she's not gonna seek any proper education on the topic by any organization at this point. It wouldn't be the first time she grew as a person by learning from her current surroundings, she even dropped the creepy 'lolicon' thing earlier in the year on her own, saying she now understands it's a bad thing (and I doubt she was ever an actual pedo). Which is incredible cause there's just as many people in this community who reinforce that as a good thing (yikes) as there is people who 'joke' about putting people in jail for it, so she easily could've just continued. But, finally, I just wanna say I totally agree with what you said about the whole yuribait thing sometimes being toxic, reinforcing that stereotype of gayness being make-believe. That's actually a great point.

[@FN-170]

@@yoursonisold8743 My theory for the shion being more distant with marine is that something did happen during that 4 hours late stream because even when shion still talks to marine, she has this feeling of trying to get away and end the conversation like shion is very uncomfortable with being near marine recently. But hey that's just a theory don't take this seriously.

[@ToddHowardWithAGun]

All of these people in the comments denying the reality of "prison gay". Smh.

[@Rar830]

The effects prisons and girls schools have on people is real thing, kinda sad to see so many people in denial about it.

[@inmaculiada1259]

marine is one of my fav hologirls but god i really hate when she talks about lesbians like that

[@N40AX]

There are comments on internalized homophobia in lgtbiq+ people that may help you understand

[@TosiakiS]

I'm tired of anti-gay bigots like epiccarrot88. Please merin, ban this homophobe already.

[@Saufs0ldat]

I wish Americans would stop assuming that their culture is some kind of universal truth... Not all societies have the same views on sexuality, so get off your high horse and let Marine be herself.

[@bebureiki]

Yea, worst thing is when someones tries to force their own ideas into another person, such as "you are born with this sexuality, you can't become XX', specially when talking about different cultures. Environment plays a huge factor on everything in your life, physically and mentally. And in the same sense it can change your sexual views toward people, it can change them "back".

[@M4TTYN]

no idea why one of us would do something so stupid I of course don't care to love the pirate no matter what!

[@alektralainheart8541]

@@bebureiki They basicly denied science anyway, mind can change but gender cant.

[@yoursonisold8743]

Scientific facts dont care about culture. What you are saying here is that because one culture thinks the sky is green that the sky can actually become green. Do you not understand the consequences of a repressive society that forces you to think one way about sexuality that contradicts reality? It causes those who are different to feel like they are wrong, imagining it and then deny themselves, which hurts them in the long run. WHO is trying to not let Marine be herself? I have seen like 10 comments saying this nonsense already, but not a single one gave any example. Saying that Marine's statement is INCORRECT, factually, does not deny Marine as a person. It just points out a flaw in her reasoning. One that is quite common, especially in a society like Japan that doesnt understand LGBT viewpoints. I'm sick and tired of pretending sexuality is a matter of opinion.

[@Micheldied]

This. Americans think they need to police the world, and act as if everyone follows and understands their beliefs and their culture.

[@frans-maria1453]

NGL, I really don't like when marine talks about her all girls school. I don't think it's what she means, but when you say that women become lesbians in a scenario where they are without men, and then stop being lesbians when they can meet men again, that implies that lesbians are lesbians because they have no success with men. Which then leads to much worse stuff which I don't want to mention. Also if you are a lesbian in an all girl's school this would lead to a lot of heartbreak and especially self-doubt about your identity.

[@NamePending9]

Its cause everyone for some reason forgets that being Bi is an option

[@fujiakishion5884]

marine talks about women stop being lesbian when they meet men again? she didn't said nor implying that. and implying lesbian have no success with men? you're think too far than marine herself. they become lesbian because there's only girls around them, and it's normal for them to fall in love between girls, there's no deeper meaning behind it i totally agree with self doubt about your sexual preference though since i experience it myself. Marine was pretty sure she's straight before she joined all-girls school. and she end up prefer liking women than men till today not because that "have no success" but because she found the real identity of her in her highschool.

[@bloomontoyou1408]

Marine is pretty incoherent, ambiguous and unpredictable when she's talking, so I wouldn't go that deep about what she said.

[@merinMeriyarin]

i totally get it what's your point, but honestly i don't think what Marine says implying such deep meaning like you said

[@frans-maria1453]

@@merinMeriyarin yeah, I said as much myself in my comment.

[@piput8533]

Lgbtq isn't serious stuff in japan it just use to spice topic in fujo fudan community that are common inside the otaku culture

[@Eeiiaane]

Damn, now I know why Japan has quite a population decline problem.. LOL