A.I. See Dead People

[@PentexProductions]

If you want, you can download The Malcolm Measure flowchart here: www.patreon.com/posts/117549049?pr=true Also I messed up behind-the-scenes with the Patreon discount, so the code is now MALCOLM-2 (or just click the banner that's visible on the Patreon page when you visit). The discount runs until Christmas! Also Also - Total mistake on my part saying Richard Hurndall was William Hartnell's son at 30.35. For some reason the idea they were related had been lodged in my head (incorrectly) for years and I never thought to doube-check that bit of the script. I'm off to revoke my Whovian credentials as we speak... Also Also Also - Yes it should be a < 2 years in the first box of the Malcolm Measure not > 2 years. No matter how many times you proof-read something....

[@jqyhlmnp]

😴

[@onojioboardwalk9748]

.. 'Actress' - Female (s) - 'Actor' - Male (s) Thats how it works. No other way.

[@sunyavadin]

Also, technically it would be 1-5, as a 0 score is not possible due to question 7

[@NickPuentes]

Hey, I just want to point out a few things about the Malcolm chart that could possibly improve it. The lowest score range should be 1-5. Since the minimum score for question 7 is 1, that's the lowest score possible. Also, the inequality symbols in Q1 and Q5 should be flipped. Should be "less than" symbol, but right now it shows "greater than" symbol. Last thing isn't that important, but you may want to change 15+ in Q1 to ≥15 or >14 to keep it in the same format you're using in the other boxes. Great chart, though, and thanks for taking the time to make it!

[@CuteKiller313]

the grimnest part of George Reeves being CGI'd back into the Superman role is that he most likely killed himself because he felt trapped by only being known as that role everywhere he went, so here is his worst fear he cant escape even in death made real by some soulless A.I. like it's I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream

[@conradojavier7547]

Also DC use CGI George to Represent Golden Age Superman.

[@SlavoidUkr]

God I was pissed about it last year and I still am now. The only good thing is that everyone universally was enraged at this monstrosity so hopefully something like this will not happen again

[@donnae1899]

The Movie Was Released On The Same Day He Died

[@UserZeroTwo]

AM was not soulless

[@TinaLouise73]

like in twilight zone the movie in segment 3 the sister Anthony wished she had no mouth so she could no longer "yell at him"!!!!

[@Radioknock]

I really loved how in Doctor Sleep they didn't digitally recreate Jack and Wendy. They simply recast them

[@PentexProductions]

The obvious solution is clearly to just have Ewan McGregor play every character.

[@The_Sleepiest_Socialist]

@PentexProductions He could do it!

[@kizmetmars]

Came to the comments to say this. It initially felt off to me, since I'd seen The Shining so many times it felt uncanny. But, it hasn't stopped me watching Dr Sleep many times and enjoying the movie AND the performances more and more each time. If they were digital recreations, with or without their families go ahead, I doubt I'd watch it more than once, if that.

[@JoeDatorCartoonist]

Yes, and it worked. I’m a big believer that if you recast with good actors, the audience will accept it.

[@andrewsmith3469]

Glad someone else said it.. cause I was about to say Doctor Sleep did a great job recasting

[@GrandArchPriestOfTheAlgorithm]

Companies want mascots, not people they can't 100% control.

[@clarapilier]

The old hollywood studio system all over again.

[@spyczech]

Low-key this is why the CIA killed mlk

[@darkzeroprojects4245]

And yet people who defend it are so ignorant.

[@spyczech]

This is why people like MLK were taken out, so they can become a mascot for their own message

[@elliott2513]

Well said!

[@LiveHedgehog]

The Tarkin one annoys me a lot because Guy Henry looks a lot like Peter Cushing anyway! Not exactly, but he gives the same airs and graces, so he would have been perfect as Tarkin without any sort of digital replacement. Hell, slap on a few prosthetics if you really want him to look _closer_ to Cushing.

[@PentexProductions]

Exactly! He'd have made a great Tarkin in his own right.

[@brennenhicks1490]

Would you not consider what they did to be a sort of “digital prosthetic”?

[@liittlemiissd]

How is making him look like cushing with prosthetics better than cgi? It's the same moral question of using an actors likeness to push the now, if your going to use those characters, they should be as close as possible.

[@LiveHedgehog]

@@liittlemiissd It's cheaper for 1. And nobody is confusing Guy Henry with altered cheekbones/freckles for the real Peter Cushing. There's no point in it being 1:1, especially when Star Wars itself has recasted. Though yes, trying to fool people another actor is giving a certain performance is scummy. It's what pissed Crispin Glover off so much.

[@brennenhicks1490]

@@LiveHedgehog what’s scummy about it? They aren’t crediting Glover for a performance he’s not giving, and if he’s really a good actor, then George McFly is distinguishable enough from his real life mannerisms that a George impression is different from a Crispin impression.

[@lennoxwilliamsart7387]

That's the man under the digital tarkin? They just should have chosen him for a recast! The malcom meter is really a really good guide imho

[@FR4M3Sharma]

Look up how the mocap body double of Luke looks like in the Mandalorian.

[@johnnhoj6749]

Agreed. He is a very able and experienced actor in his own right and it wouldn't be a case of casting someone just because they look similar to Peter Cushing.

[@CaspianNomad]

Bruce Lee one was the most tasteless because not only did he die so long ago, but as mentioned it was an advert. Then add into perspective that there was a period of “Brucesploitation” after his death where his image, name and everything was being exploited by Hong Kong filmmakers without his permission. So much so that talented actors and martial artists couldn’t catch a break, like Jackie Chan, because they were expected to fight and act in Bruce’s style. This needed mentioning too, it’s a more touchy subject in a unique way when it comes to Bruce Lee

[@Raycloud]

The guy playing Peter Cushing/Tarkin in Rogue One... looks and sounds a lot like Peter Cushing... so just let him play Grand Moff Tarkin I say. Dye his hair grey and I'd slip right into the role.

[@PauLtus_B]

I would've been totally down for that! It's ridiculous how scared blockbuster studios seem to be to just recast these days.

[@MFKitten]

I thought the same thing. We didn't need the CGI head. Having the real actor just play that role, and having the character referred to as Tarkin, would have been more than enough.

[@AbrasiousProductions]

that scene from Jurassic Park (1993) hasn't aged a bit, avarice never dies unfortunately..

[@darksidegryphon5393]

I have that little speech bookmarked.

[@zaidlacksalastname4905]

Lots of people feel obligated to hate on it, but Michael Gambon had an incredible performance in the harry potter movies. The often-cited "harry did you put your name" scene is just bad directing, Michael brought the whimsy and gentleness he needed to, while still showing the strength the character had.

[@PentexProductions]

Totally agree - and kind of the point being made in the video. If they had tried to preserve Harris' portrayal, the series would not have had the success it did. Gambon's reinvention of Dumbledore was an essential part of those movies, and it evovled in line with the story. Also the Goblet of Fire scene is hardly the only one in those movies that's not a literal adaptation from the book (but t doesn't make the meme any less funny).

[@Verebazs]

People hate on that scene, because it embodies everything wrong with Gambon's performance as Dumbledore. It's not the only instance when he's competely character alien, it's just the most easily memeable. There's also Harry's trial in OftP, where he's loud, snappy and barely contains his contempt, and then acts surprised when Fudge continues to refuse believing him, just because he suddenly switched to pleading tone. Or there's the part in PoA, when he smacks Ron's bandaged leg repeatedly for comedic effect. And a whole bunch of similar scenes. While some of these were down to the direction and script of the movies, a lot of them were choices Gambon made, and in those cases the director can only be blamed for not correcting him.

[@joshslater2426]

Gambon was still a great Dumbledore. Most people just think of the overly aggressive “Harry did you put your name in the goblet of fire?” moment, and a few other things, but he still works well.

[@CM-pf1xc]

FALSE. He literally Brags in extras how he IGNORED his predecessor (the perfect dumbledore) AND the books completely. Like he had no idea or intention to even try to honor the source material. He was bad casting as well as bad directing.

[@AgsmaJustAgsma]

The series took a darker turn by the third movie, coincidentially when Michael Gambon took over the role, and , while I'm not fond of the later movies in general, Gambon delivered a Dumbledore that suited the atmosphere that evolved throughout the series. Whether it appeals to everyone or not is irrelevant on the grand scheme of things.

[@benabaxter]

I really appreciate Zelda Williams' observation about this whole issue being cobbled together from the worst parts of the industry. Consider how many stories you hear about the binders full of actors who all look alike, people who are literally chosen because of how they look. That is a particularly callous way to cast and casting agencies do it frequently.

[@PentexProductions]

After his experience with Aladdin, Robin Williams knew all too well how studios could use his likeness without his permission, so his family would understand this better than most (which is why he took steps to control his post-humous likeness before his death).

[@TheBcoolGuy]

Binders full of women.

[@rcarlson787]

It's a blink and you'll miss it moment, but like Mon Mothma, Tarkin appears in Revenge of the Sith (Vader, Palpatine, and Tarkin are in the quick scene spectating the construction of the Death Star). Wayne Pygram plays him. Like others have mentioned, if they wanted a newer direction, Guy Henry seems spot on even before all the Cushing CGI.

[@reborndiajack9612]

wonder if he will return for andor season 2

[@PentexProductions]

I actually forgot about Tarkin's Episode III cameo, but it's a great point that only further justifies the argument that the character should just have been re-cast for Rogue One.

[@vee-bee-a]

Scorpius Tarkin! 👍🏻

[@sunyavadin]

@@vee-bee-a The excellent Rogue One performance we were denied.

[@JonManos]

Imagine if instead of recasting James Bond, Sean Connery just comes back.

[@2002_tanaka]

Somehow, Sean Connery returned

[@ResidentWiseacre]

@@2002_tanakaMagnificent

[@Thenogomogo-zo3un]

"You only live Twice, Mr. Bond"

[@RandomShapeless]

"Never Say Never Again, and Again and..."

[@ME-ci8zi]

cast Darrell Hammond as Bond and just have him do his SNL Celebrity Jeopardy impersonation.

[@colinwatt9387]

The digital Ash in Alien Romulus look liked animatronics, entirely unlike the way Ian Holm acted in Alien, even after he had his head bashed off.

[@1intecrist]

It took me out of the movie so badly. I could not take the whole thing seriously after I saw the CGI Ash

[@peterstangl8295]

Not 100%, but i think they did actually use an animatronic and then deepfaked Ian Holm's face onto it, which explains the uncannyness.

[@flirtwithdanger_les]

I thought they should've used a different actor for this, after all it was a different robot.

[@gaben5627]

@@1intecrist dude that killed all the tension in the movie for me. it looked SO bad and the story absolutely did not need him to be there. Left a bad taste in my mouth but i liked the rest of the movie

[@Skitdora2010]

And it was 50 years past Nostromo was destroyed. Future never advanced in science to create new models? Lance/Bishop was a robot and real person in Aliens versus predator so I could see a version of that synthetic but no reason for an Ash model.

[@Lemonator321]

People need to learn to move on. We can't keep making the same movies with the same actors forever. This era of nostalgia is destroying creativity.

[@PauLtus_B]

This video made me feel like "resurrecting" dead actors with VFX might be a good analogy for how the blockbuster film industry works in general these days. Jost slavishly trying to recreate something that looks the same, not actually allowing someone to breathe new life into it.

[@cantkillcliffrose]

Yeah, but most of his examples are dumb. They were finishing stories, or saying goodbye to a character/actor. The Christopher Reeves one is gross, but for the most part there is zero difference between good make up/vfx and the "ai". Stfu😊

[@marmelade8331]

​@@PauLtus_B i feel similarly about the whole thing with endless remakes that seems to be everywhere. Actors are being used again, so are old movies. They all just want to play it safe, give us what they know we like. It sucks.

[@OneofInfinity.]

Activists have no creativity.

[@pcenero]

personally I feel the nostalgia argument is putting the cart before the horse. The real problem is production companies being too comfortable cutting costs. Underpaying artists, writers, engineers, staff, etc.. We need to normalize higher wages for these crews, and thus creating a monetary incentive for companies to take creative risks and making unique films again. Taking part in the never-ending culture war by deriding "nostalgia" is playing into the lazy executives' hands. It's a class issue, not a culture issue.

[@evanus]

That Ian Holm monstrosity in Alien Romulus looked horrible.

[@taradarwin7896]

Really interesting video... but I think you are wrong about Harold Ramis though; while he wasn't involved in afterlife, it was because of his death, he was involved in decades of attempts to make other versions of the 3rd Ghostbusters film and was fully intending to be apart of it (Infact he was a rights holder, and they could not have made it without his involvement, before his death)

[@OhTheHuntsmanity]

Technically Peter Cushing's family did not agree to his appearance in Rogue One. He has no living family members. The digital recreation was approved of by his former secretary. After Rogue One's release, other friends of Cushing have objected to the use of his likeness in the film, and one of them has even sued Disney.

[@PentexProductions]

Yeah the 'approval of the estate / family' is broadly worded to mean 'whoever has the rights to their likeness.' Whether or not that person is 'entitled' to those rights is a legal question. My understanding is that the Cushing/Rogue One lawsuit is relatively new - at the time Rogue One was made the legal side was taken care of as far as the film-makers were concerned (though it's since been disputed, but that lawsuit is still ongoing). This is why the video didn't delve into the legalities too much - it's complex and we often lack the full details and nuances of the situation . Should a court find that Disney did not, in fact, have the legal permission of Cushing's estate to use his likeness then the Malcolm Score can be changed accordingly.

[@devononair]

The funny thing about the Audrey Hepburn advert? I didn't even realise it was Hepburn. I presumed it was an actress who looked a lot like her. So it was a pointless endeavour, from my point of view!

[@PentexProductions]

The point of the advert was not the advert itself, it was for every single news outlet in the world to run some a story along the lines of 'Galaxy Chocolate advert re-creates Audrey Hepburn,' which got Galaxy Chocolate infinitely more publicity than if they'd just made that advert with a normal actor (or even a living celebrity). So as an advert, job done, but creatively - zero purpose to using Hepburn's likeness.

[@devononair]

@PentexProductions Ah, I see. Good point.

[@FR4M3Sharma]

Imagine not getting Heath Ledger and Jack Nicholson's version of Joker because they kept Romero play the joker even after his death.

[@Joseph-i9d9f]

A.I. learning from out private messages to create chat bots so our loved ones can still stay in sudo contact are no less evil than skin walkers.

[@nosprings82]

"The long form contract I had to sign said I'll be making these movies till the end of time with my Yoda.."

[@PentexProductions]

I did have a "when 900 years old, you reach, look as good you will not" joke in here, but I swapped it out for 'the dead speak' which, while less funny, was more appropriate to the point being made.

[@Kink_Shaman]

It’s a top comment, but still underrated as far as I am concerned. Magic and Blasters and Old Jedi Masters at the Star Wars Cantina.

[@zaidlacksalastname4905]

The people worried about "preserving the legacy of actors" don't value their performances and acting. It's like seeing a painting and saying "my ai can do that"

[@redacted7931]

Part of the problem with the actors' families agreeing to something like this is the money involved. Of course they'll convince themselves it's a worthy usage of such technology and a respectful recreation if they're ( or the estate is ) getting paid handsomely. Either way it should be left up to the actual actor.

[@yavoth5850]

I do not in the slightest believe they are using "Lee's voice with no AI" in that anime. They are lying by omission, because they know what the public's reaction would be if they mentioned AI, similarily to that "no CGI" (where there obviously was CGI) nonsense we see a lot of today.

[@PentexProductions]

Yeah I imagine there's some creative wordplay going on there (since AI is a term that can be used to include almost any digital technology these days, but it is also broad enough to mean basically nothing), but from the sounds of it the vast majority of what will be heard in the movie will be archived audio of Lee himself, though there will no doubt be some digital wizardry going on to manipulate the levels / tone and specific words in some cases.

[@pderham26]

That's not a really viable or relevant take.

[@hugocastilla3102]

It's just one phrase. Definitely archival

[@cmccorquodale2003]

I do appreciate what ghostbusters afterlife did. I think him not speaking added alot and the fact it was minimal. The story itself is a tribute to Ramis and give closure to the story and some nice heartwarming scenes of the actors seeing him again. I agree on the Malcom scale it is valid but I think unlike other projects it’s designed around the actor.

[@MNYQaa]

i really cried for that scene. ghostbusters is such a charming series and it was nice seeing him.

[@cmccorquodale2003]

@ I was as well, I think it was probably the most meaningful way I’ve seen bringing back an actor. It wasn’t for money or fan service but a genuine goodbye.

[@GenericProtagonist7]

This has nothing to do with AI, it's the end product; Even if you could somehow do this as a person and realistically mimic the appearance of a person, you STILL shouldn't do it without the individuals express consent. The fact it's a machine doing it is irrelevant, the very concept is deranged in itself. Also, that list is ridiculous and how to measure its creepiness is easy; Did they consent to it? Not "did their family/their e-state", did THEY consent to it? If they died before you could ask, then don't do it. The fact you can do it without their consent but only get a "little creepy" is unhinged, it should be an instant +25. Why does the family get more say than the actual person? Just wtf?

[@officialmonarchmusic]

Pentex, I have one more suggested addition to the Malcom Measure. I think you already touched on this with the last questions, but specifically how long is the AI deepfake in the movie. For example, if the character only shows up for one or two scenes, it is significantly less creepy than if they are supposed to be a main character. This is why people talk about CGI Tarkin a LOT more than they talk about CGI Leia in that same movie

[@PentexProductions]

Very good point. Something to consider including in v2.0. AI James Dean being the lead in a movie is very different to a 4 second cameo by Christopher Reeve.

[@QuantumHistorian]

I think that's already included in the question that covers how much of the project was done with the real actor? It's a percentage rather than min, but that's probably good. 30sec of fakes that make up 100% of an advert is much worse than 10% over a whole film, even if that's 10min of fake performance.

[@officialmonarchmusic]

Just to clarify, it would portably be a bonus question that would only exist IF the actor’s real performance is not in the movie, and it would also be percentage based. Neither Peter Cushing nor Carrie Fisher are used at all in R1, but minus the scores around consent and the time of Fisher’s death, the Malcolm Measure weights their creepiness factor as equal, because once the actor is in the film for 0 percent of the run time, there is no measure beyond that. For example, imagine if they made a Superman movie starring AI Christopher Reeve. Would the Malcolm Measure V1 not give it the same score as it gave his portrayal in the Flash, even though it is WAY more creepy. Something to consider. Also, I’d recommend adding a section regarding AI voices. Thankfully, most of these AI projects have at least uses the voices of real people, but AI voices are unfortunately on the rise. It would be good if the Malcolm Measure V2 took that into account as well. Anyway, thank you for listening to my ramble

[@JulianTheJedi]

I don’t have a problem with Harold Ramis in ghostbusters. A third movie is something he fought so hard for and would have loved to do. It was his dream to do a third movie with all four ghostbusters, and in some way he got what he wanted

[@paulhiggins5165]

I think you underestimate the real intent of the tech bro's here. Recreating physical attributes is just the starting point, the real game will be to replicate the performers themselves by training AI's not just on how they look, but on how they act. The human face and voice have a wide but ultimately finite range of possible expressions- once you have your AI trained on these expesssions you have yourself Zombie- a puppet that can be played like an instrument to emote on demand. The movies of the future may well be populated by dead people perfectly recreated in every aspect, every nuance of voice, face and body faithfully captured- the ultimate movie stars, ageless and immortal.

[@timrob12]

I must say, Ghostbuster Afterlife worked rather well and was a touching tribute to Harold Ramis.

[@Pertinacissimus]

I'm with the Ghostbusters defenders. Egon didn't speak, and the character had limited screentime. I saw it as a loving tribute and an opportunity to properly say goodbye. I think it was kind of brilliant to use a film about ghosts of the dead haunting the living to let the "ghost" of Ramis/Egon tie up loose ends and move on.

[@Tacom4ster]

Im disappointed with James selling out his voice so no one can be Darth Vader. Mark Hamill compare playing the Joker like playing Hamlet, different actors bringing out different nuances. Crystalizing the past, not allowing the next generation to flourish. Personally I think we will reach a breaking point to all this nostalgia, likes kids won't be impressed with their parents' leftovers. I'm a Millennial and I don't want to be the target audience for Disney, make something new for the kids, give them their own culture, evolve the art.

[@Gahanun]

You know. Since you bring up the Alien example, it kinda made me think that running a living actor through this technology and then messing with the motion capture data to make them more mechanical would have been such a cool effect to show androids.

[@mrboost4186]

30:34 Richard Hurndall, who was cast as the First Doctor in The Five Doctors, was not William Hartnell's son. They only had 2 years of age difference.

[@PetersonZF]

Yep, as a child I noticed the similarity between their names, but it is just coincidence. I don't know if it was intentional, but Pentex paraphrases Hurndall's Doctor at 30:50. :)

[@IainLambert]

The other thing I really don’t get about Romulus is that Ash is far from the only WY Artificial Person we’ve seen in this universe (even beyond them also introducing Jonsson). Were Henriksen, Ryder & Fassbender all unavailable? Ideally you’d just cast someone new, but there are plenty of better options.

[@abbymitchell5948]

Literally the only thing wrong with this video is accidentally thinking Richard Hurndell is William Hartnell's son, which is an easy mistake given the nature of legacy recastings and the surname similarity

[@DarioDarrow]

Ash looks awful. His head appears to have motion capture noise in the data so his head is bobbeling separate from his body....but his face looks like keyframe animation from a PS2 game 😩

[@GeahkBurchill]

I don’t know anyone who didn’t find Ian Holm in Romulus super unnatural and distracting. It was like a Corridor Digital Deepfake. Super unconvincing and ugly. Frankly, I think it scores WAY higher than 11 and it was a VERY bad idea to include those wack effects in a finished movie.

[@TheHeroExodus]

Ramis wasnt the worst. In that specific case, it was a tribute to a roll the actor wanted to revisit, but wasn't able to for obvious reasons. Bruce Lee tho.. damn I have no idea what they were drinking... oh wait. It was probably johnny walker

[@itsybitsy8136]

You are very wrong when you say we have no right to question the motives and or decisions of a select few random people (most likely only motivated by short term implications for themselves or personal gain of some sort and not the bigger picture) while they are making decisions that concern all of us and the direction we are going in morally, practically and societally. this effects creative expression, the (what I think should be a basic human right) right to be able to trust your senses and not be manipulated , it effects jobs, it effects the morality of exploiting someone's self, their unique identity beyond death and self determination. So yea..we have every right to have an opinion, to have questions and feelings concerning this topic.

[@josedorsaith5261]

Glad someone called that out. The movies are the testing ground for getting the public to tolerate AI replacements on a society-wide scale. Let's not forget that every single AI company is headed up by Israeli dual-nationals.

[@timrob12]

25:27 - The excuse of the filmmakers was that James Dean was the only actor who could play this role, which I find quite hard to believe.

[@Arider56107]

I'd love a companion video about using visual effects for deaging actors

[@sulijoo]

If they recreate the dinosaurs you can suspend disbelief because humans and dinosaurs never walked the earth together, we can use our imagination. But you'll never convince me that Peter Cushing or Bruce Lee are still making movies, because I know they are dead. Also, the uncanny valley effect stops you from suspending your disbelief, no matter how good the CG/deep fake is.

[@devononair]

I agree. This suggests that recasting is more beliavable than a deep fake and therefore the movie works better, because you're not sitting there fuming about the weird deep fake for 10 minutes.

[@mordaciousfilms]

I'd say the Harold Ramis one gets a pass, in a positive way. It was SO well-done that it doesn't take you out of it. It was tasteful and beautifully done.

[@stuff31]

Correction: Richard Hurndall is NOT William Hartnell's son, if he was then Bill would have been a father six years before he was even born. I think a lot of people think Hartnell was a lot older than he actually was (55) when he took on the role of the Doctor, as his heavy smoking which ultimately led to his retirement due to ill health had aged him greatly. Hurndall, portraying the Doctor, was 19 years older than Hartnell was in the role, as was David Bradley.

[@K_a_Z010]

Unless the actor consents before they perish, then no, this shouldn’t be celebrated.

[@relwaretep]

I think Romulus may have benefited from a different appearing actor using Holm's voice. That actor could then more plausibly use different voices in other stories in that universe. Given that we're talking about an android character, this would suggest that there are different appearing models with different sounding voices in the universe. This sort of situation lends itself to the often repeated questions in SciFi regarding what is human. If Roy from Blade Runner came back, looking like Hauer but sounding different, or vice verse, I think it'd play well in that universe. I suspect the Malcolm Score might not capture such nuance.

[@basedostrich]

And there's only ever gonna be one Blade

[@fietae]

Now we need a similar scale for de-aging living actors

[@ohmyvisage]

I used to like the tarkin recreation as a way of maintaining continuity, but will admit this video changed my opinion on it and reusing dead celebrities in general Major props! Great video and great little chart

[@zaidlacksalastname4905]

Martin Freeman's Bilbo and Michael Gambon's Dumbledore are some of the best recast decisions I've seen

[@nagi159]

i can't stand the hobbit movies but martin freeman as bilbo is completely genius casting

[@bruhdon4748]

Is the casting of Martin freeman technically a recasting? He’s a lot younger and wouldn’t make sense having 80 year old Ian holm playing Bilbo as a young man, I guess it is technically but not really

[@joannamarieart]

@@bruhdon4748I mean… we’ve got 80 year old Harrison ford still playing Indiana Jones with CGI to “de-age” him 😑

[@JohnnyOrgan]

Great video and this is something that should be really examined. One aspect you maybe didn't quite touch on is...A lot of dead celebrities had victims. Maybe not to the Weinstein or Cosby levels of depravity, but some, maybe some victims who never went to the police would have to deal with the fact that even after death, their abusers are still in some kind of limelight. Just leave dead people dead please. They've had their run.

[@tajcee]

Hey Pentax, how would you rank or grade Brandon Lee’s recreated likeness in The Crow? Granted he had a filmed a large majority of scenes but to fill in for those scenes after his death, there was a combination of body doubles and CGI. i still think the filmmakers were very respectful of Brandon’s last performance.

[@PentexProductions]

I haven't seen the movie, but I think this is very similar to Paul Walker or Oliver Reed, where most of what's on screen is the actor's own performance, which was just completed using a body double and some CGI. So it'd be in the 0-5 points bracket I imagine.

[@wesley2524]

I don't fully agree with the score given to Harold Ramis's ghost in Ghostbusters: Afterlife. I believe it should be rated closer to a 10 than an 11, as the amount of screen time and the quality of acting should influence the score. The ghost played a minor role, whereas Governor Tarkin had a more significant acting presence. Feel free to judge if I'm wrong.

[@Tuxfanturnip]

I remember watching The Congress (2013) on release, when it was maybe not the most age appropriate movie for my dad to have taken me to, and I keep thinking back to it more and more the less far-fetched part of its dystopian premise becomes.

[@fuzzydunlop7928]

This is mostly unrelated but - at 14:18 - I never realized before that they allowed Tarkin to come off as so threatening that Leia momentarily forgets that DARTH VADER is standing behind her. They would NEVER allow another character to have anything approaching equal billing with the man in the big black weiner hat nowadays. It's cartoonish the levels of menace they hoist on Vader and make EVERYONE else around him into clowns.

[@fuzzydunlop7928]

Also everyone in these shots is dead.

[@chinmail]

I think the first category might be variable - e.g. someone who had just died a week ago, who is then used digitally in a project they never consented to, is much worse than someone who died 200 years ago. We all enter the public domain at some point

[@jugomebu]

Feels like you nailed it with the Malcolm measure. Summised my feeling about it beautifully. This is something worth being very cynical about.

[@OnTheRun_DontTellEm]

Pentex, YOUVE DONE IT AGAIN! Fantastic video! Yet here's the thing that interests me; as someone who grew up on SFM'S, and Gmod skits, taking the voices of actors and retooling them to create an entirely new experience, is at least to me, a great way to continue the legacy, and life of the character the actor plays; especially if the character is being unused by the ip holders. Of course we haven't seen Ride of the Rohirrim yet, so if Saruman has few lines to work with, and because of that the creators are unable to do new things with the character, I dont think that it would be worth it. I completely agree with you on the subjects covered this video, but for me the question of bringing back dead voice actors, so far hasn't been unasked; (at least to my knowledge) so it will be quite interesting to see Christopher Lee in Ride of the Rohirrim, if because it will serve as a benchmark to bringing back actors who primarily voice act. If it is well handled, then I think it could serve as a good send-off to Christopher Lees wonderful portrayal of Saruman, but that's likely dependent on how much material they have to work with. And at least to me, COULD be a catalyst for someone thinking it a good idea to use AI voices to reprise dead actors, if they are lacking material to work with. (As in, if Ride of Rohirrim's Saruman main flaw is lacking materials, it may cause some directors to see the only flaw is in the lack of material)

[@PentexProductions]

It's an interesting point. I did try to keep this focused on live-action performances rather than voice ones - I just used Lee since it's a very recent example (and obviously being LOTR, one close to my heart). My instinct is that the issue is fundamentally the same whether it's a voice actor or live-action one, since you're re-contextualising a previous performance, not creating a new one. As with Carrie Fisher, how effective the end result it kind of relates to how much material you have to work with. But generally I think re-casting is still the best and easiest option. Also a re-casting is easier to hide with a voice actor than someone on-screen (and it then it becomes a choice of the director and actor whether or not they try to go for a like-for-like imitation like in Rick and Morty, or if they lean into the re-casting and don't hide the change in actor). But I am sure it's only a matter of time before we get more examples similar to Christopher Lee, so I guess time will tell how those appearances are recieved by audiences....

[@Dr170]

Thanks for the cope

[@OnTheRun_DontTellEm]

@@Dr170 Apologies for my bluntness, and quite likely foolishness, but what exactly am I coping about?

[@Durandalite]

Honestly I don't see what right someone's family has in signing away your identity for a buck. The only thing that should matter is if the actor already agreed to be part of the specific project. Anything else is just grave robbing.

[@MrDangle44]

I would love to hear your thoughts on this topic as it relates to video games. With Indiana Jones being the framing for the discussion. Last year’s movie ended a flop because it’s budget ballooned due to and trying to write a screenplay to fit an aging actor. This is in contrast to the first movie which was Spielberg’s attempt to show the studios he could make a movie come in under budget. This past week an Indiana jones game has come out and fans generally believe it is on par with the original movies. I’m the video game we are watching a digital representation of Harrison Ford being voiced and motion captured by another actor. How does this fit with the scale you have developed?

[@PentexProductions]

I'd put this in the category of re-casting. Also since video games are a different medium, and I don't really have much of a problem with them using the likeness of a character in the way comic books do because it's not claiming to be 'Harrison Ford reprising his role as Indiana Jones.'

[@MrDangle44]

@ would you feel the same if they used an Ai to recreate Harrison Ford’s speech? As video games continue to be more cinematic there is an actor and performance behind cutscenes even though the in game actions are controlled by the character. For instance many reviews note applaud the game for including the famous Harrison For point. This is a performance decision made by Ford on set 40 years ago that is being aped to simulate a performance by Ford in the game by a digital character brought to life with some of the same techniques the film industry is using. I think video games are a lot closer to movies than comic books.

[@abohachuk4765]

The videogame performance was done with living human actors that not only took great inspiration from the existing performance but brought their own flair and talent. The original actor is still with us and has endorsed the game. There's no problem.

[@sleeperagentyami]

My first vid of your, awesome work guy

[@syedshamrezrehanshahkazmi3324]

DUDE! Great video - this makes sense, and it's quite sad where Hollywood and probably the Music/Gaming industry are headed - but if recent events are anything to go by then I believe the artists will fight back.

[@Stadsjaap]

What a well considered, beautifully argued take. Thank you for this! 👍

[@tadeasburger8191]

The future of mainstream art has never seemed as off-putting as it does now, has it?

[@stretchmonster]

Ugh. AI has shifted the entire shitshow into overdrive, and fuck everybody who gets in the way, living or dead.

[@QuantumHistorian]

I'm pretty sure every generation has thought that. People complained that TV ruined cinema, and that cinema ruined theatre. Socrates was complaining that with people writing everything down and that new fangled theatre thing, the old skill of oral story telling was being lost.

[@xavthesimmer725]

would this chart also work regarding de-aging characters like how the intro to Dial of Destiny features a de aged Harrison Ford?

[@PentexProductions]

De-ageing is more nuanced because it often still involves the original actor doing the acting (or at least explicitly giving their approval), so even though it uses very similar technology, there's less of an ethical question about whether or not it's use is justified.

[@devononair]

@PentexProductions Was Leia in Rogue One de-aged, or generated from scratch?

[@Quirderph]

She was a CGI recreation on a stand-in’s body, voiced by one line of stock audio.

[@intellectually_lazy]

i wasn't looking when i heard, "you're tearing me apart!" i'm like, tommy wiseau's dead? you know, sounded like the room. turns out it was james dean

[@rokhamler3352]

Star Wars especially has a problem with things being re-done over and over and over and over again, rehashing almost the same plot so many times over literally 1000s of in-universe years.

[@shaolinotter]

I think one obvious difference is that Paul Walker's movies are decidedly low brow. not that he's not worth respect, but its like if they added a CG dead person to a transformers movie. nobody would really bother complaining because it's already slop

[@misterchris3491]

Im going to play Devil's Advocate with Harold Ramis Ghost. Not only i think this is the most "ethical" use of the third tier, because of the "homage" part of his appereance, but also this is the only case presented here, that doesn't work on the "just recast them" category, because this moment literally exists as a response to people rejecting the Ghostbusters recast of the 2016 film. And the worst part is that the new cast presented on the recent revival films has not caught much attention either.

[@DusanPavlicek78]

As I was watching your video, before you said it yourself later, I thought exactly that: looking at the behind the scenes footage, I'd like to see Henry's performance of Tarkin rather than the CGI replacement that ended up in the movie. A parameter that's missing in the Malcolm score is how good the likeness is. If it's crap then it's doing the dead actor a disservice and so the score should be higher 😉 Btw, I didn't know that the infamous line "You're tearing me apart, Lisa!" in The Room is apparently an homage to James Dean's performance 😂

[@sproductionsinc]

Oh hi Mark!

[@DusanPavlicek78]

@@sproductionsinc 🤣👍

[@ChubbyChecker182]

Better Call Saul was really odd when they recast a character in its final season, the guy was completely different to the original and felt really weird.

[@Melt_d]

Who?

[@aBoxfulOfVids]

@@Melt_d Jeff the creepy cab driver who recognises Saul in the mall

[@Melt_d]

@@aBoxfulOfVids tru

[@clarapilier]

I really hope we don't get to play this game often, but kudos for inventing it. Great video.

[@oneinathousand2156]

The weirdest example of this I’ve seen was a Russian movie from 2012 called Vysotsky, Thank You for Being Alive, which was a biopic about a very beloved Soviet-era singer and actor named Vladimir Vysotsky who died in 1980. For the movie, the creators put the lead actor under heavy prosthetics and used CG to some extent, I don’t know how exactly, possibly digital airbrushing. The craziest part is that the movie CREDITED VYSOTSKY AS PLAYING HIMSELF AND HID THE ACTUAL ACTOR’S IDENTITY… The actor who played Vysotsky did reveal himself later on and apparently subsequent TV showings did credit him, but that’s still wild to me. The movie was written by one of Vysotsky’s children who also dubbed the voice, I can’t believe he thought it was a good idea. I watched a bit of the movie and it’s clear the actor couldn’t emote a whole lot over all that makeup.

[@legoking6165]

This video needs a lot more views and a lot more likes.

[@NorthernRealmJackal]

A wonderful example of solving it through good casting is "Haunting of Hill House", where the dad is played by different actors, despite being like 30 and 50 respectively. Really makes you appreciate _not_ having to look at awkward half-digital makeup for the remainder of the show.

[@brosskitchens]

The 🚫 over Leto's Joker had me rolling😂. Nice touch!

[@michaeljaymarshall]

Adam West era Batman had Eartha Kitt as Catwoman as well.

[@PentexProductions]

Indeed she did. I was just focusing on film performances (same with Superman and Batman, who've both had many TV incarnations).

[@RandomShapeless]

People laughed at Roy Orbisons Hologram when he thanked the audience for their applause during his digital performance.

[@RandomShapeless]

His family's reason for doing it was cause he saw star wars once and liked the leiea hologram by r2d2.

[@NickMichalak]

Bravo, sir! Excellent breakdown on this controversial issue. I recall Hawaii Five-0 doing a digital Jack Lord for cheap reasons ages ago. Worse yet because this was a reboot series and McGarrett was played by another actor already. They digitally resurrected him to play a character he never played before. For Tarkin, there’s no reason why they couldn’t have applied prosthetics to the new actor to approximate Cushing’s likeness. As bad as Halloween Kills is, they did just that to bring back Dr. Loomis. Hell, the same thing was done in Revenge of the Sith, albeit for a very brief cameo.

[@PentexProductions]

Thank you! I did come across those examples in my research but wasn't familair enough with the source material to include them here (and I felt I had enough examples already!) Suffice to say, it's not a new thing, nor is it going away (even though audiences have NEVER liked it). Totally agree re: Tarkin. There's no reason Guy Henry couldn't have just played him outright.

[@ty_sylicus]

I super agree with this. The Malcom Measure is brilliant.

[@AlecFinderton]

Another exceptional video in Pentex's collection!

[@downtothewood1950]

Brilliantly presented! Thank you 👍

[@robinanwaldt]

I have long held the belief that Tarkin in Rogue One should have been played by Charles Dance. Not only does he closely resemble Peter Cushing in a way, but he is a great actor in his own right. Similarly, I’m kind of saddened that, now that James Earl Jones will always remain the voice for Darth Vader in movies and shows, other voice actors like Scott Lawrence and Matt Sloan, who did a legitimately great job portraying Vader in video games, won’t get a shot at voicing the role in these major media.

[@OnniMustonen]

Absolutely great video!

[@v.heywood]

Great video, mate

[@alfredodedarc]

They recently did a project with William Shatner [with his full participation and Leonard Nimoy [his wife was a producer] also using surviving actors from Star Trek history to give closure to Kirk‘s death Spock’s death, and casting actress to portray Yeoman colt from the original pilot. An 87-year-old Gary Lockwood also participate it was to demonstrate a new process that required appliances in very little CGI to re-create a character. It was a demo freely available to everyone and is in a high class production, such as Star Trek it would likely never be used unless the Malcolm score was really really low. But this was a thing of beauty that could not have been produced in any other way, and it was heart wrenching, but it was pure Star Trek. I am glad it gave William Shatner one last chance to play Captain Kirk as he appearedin Star Trek generations. Is the company who made this is called OtoY

[@ucantSQ]

"It is no longer a question of imitation, nor of reduplication, nor even of parody. It is rather a question of substituting signs of the real for the real itself..." -Jean Baudrillard, in "Simulations and Simulacra"

[@teemulusua3725]

18:10 lol i love how you censored Jared Leto's face here

[@ArbitraryHarry]

The key thing to ask ourselves is: where does it end? Someday the technology will be flawless and automated, removing the human element entirely. Is that the future we’re destined for? One where “art” is entrusted to learning algorithms instead of human beings? In fact, why resurrect dead actors at all when brand new faces can be conjured from a void of soulless machine-learning? The line must be drawn somewhere. (Great video, by the way!)

[@Porifera-Jaymen]

Recasting? Never heard of it. There's only one James Bond

[@MrRickstopher]

Very good video. Thank you.

[@djrudd8455]

There is so much bound up in this issue - the insistence of a generation (or two) to assert THEIR icons/idols should be immortal and privileged over new actors/characters etc, the further Western capitalist devaluation of real human lives (interlinked with imperialism - we're already seeing how worthless the West thinks brown and black lives in the global south are with Gaza, Sudan, Congo etc), the selfishness/greed/misogyny of overwhelmingly male techies pursuing the ability to digitally create porn 'performances' from women who didn't consent to it for their own gratification - which is absolutely where this is going - the scamming/blackmailing/incriminating of innocent people, and how long before governments are using the tech to lock up political dissidents with AI fabricated 'evidence'? Just horrifying implications all round. It should be banned

[@JohnSmith-rm1po]

There's some nuance complication missing in your framing of Question 2, if I may be so bold: Is the current project *directly* related to the older one in which they played the character, and actually set in the *exact same* kayFabe? The "cameos" in Flash don't actually pass this criteria, because though Reeve may have played Clark before, the Flash movie is _not_ actually a direct sequel or spinoff of the Donner series. Overall great video. Thank you.

[@johnuphill3127]

Great video. You have articulated very well why this is a terrible road to travel.

[@alfredross]

It all started in 1987 with “Rendez-vous à Montréal” . Marilyn Monroe and Humphrey Bogart were the first digital actors ever produced. 38 years later, the question of postmortem rights of digitized celebrities is still debated.

[@jimothy40]

Superb arguments, well done

[@Aremisalive]

I had no clue what this video was about when I tapped it, but the title souned interesting and the video was great

[@SuperCartoonist]

You know... Walt Disney tried to bring back Abraham Lincoln as a animatronic. History seems to repeat itself but now with deepfake and AI.