Zone 2 Training: Dose, Frequency, and Duration | Iñigo San-Millán, Ph.D. & Peter Attia, M.D.

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[@darkfoxjj]

Summary: Zone 2 60-90mins 3-4x a week. Dont forget strength training which should be done for the same amount of time.

[@NavAK_86]

after 60 min the body uses muscle for energy

[@nech060404]

​@@NavAK_86you should take approx 60g of carbs an hour for the workouts.

[@tf-ok]

8 hours of working out a week??

[@wellyeshowcouldyoutell9912]

@@NavAK_86that’s bullshit

[@TheDudeWatches]

@@tf-okYep. It can be challenging. Some people have no issues watching Netflix or social media for 9 hrs per week, but ask them to exercise and it's an endless list of excuses. Sorry, not sorry. Make it a priority :)

[@JonReid]

I cycle to and from work, 45 minutes either way, mostly in zone 2. I get in around 5 hours of zone 2 per week doing just this. This is time that I’d have to spend commuting anyway, so it feels like it’s “free time”.

[@dabblingfrancis]

This is the way to go. It's a lifestyle thing. Inigo also discussed how some retired guys _improve_ because they have so much more time.

[@JonReid]

@@dabblingfrancis an additional bonus is that it leaves me with reserves to make my actual training rides hard.

[@mikey.1205]

My greatest fitness gains came from commuting 40km/day to and from uni. Didn't even realise I was 'training' until I got back into running and was crushing previous times by a matter of minutes not seconds.

[@JonReid]

@@mikey.1205 the trick is to not go hard and to avoid racing the other cyclists between lights

[@danieljohnston3441]

That’s the dream

[@Roy-ud1db]

What I've learned over time, is that consistency trumps. I was doing about 90-120mins of training a day and trying to stick rigidly to a training plan, but eventually, I would fail and get frustrated. Life throws you curveballs, and it's impossible to stick to a dedicated plan, family, work, other commitments, etc. Now, I can train 7 days a week, 60mins a day on the trainer, usually at the crack of dawn. Most of my rides are either Zone 2, or Sweet Spot, and it works out very well for me. I couldn't do Sprints or high intensity at that time of the morning, as the body is only waking up. Great podcast, thanks, Peter!

[@gourami7]

@@uberpekes its not much at all to add a few 30sec efforts into this routine, even low intensity rides benefit from a dose of intensity

[@itzapeezacake580]

You absolutely can do high intensity at 5 in the morning. No excuses!

[@davidkucsera8277]

This is exactly what iam doing as well works well, i do it with empty stomach.

[@off-the-record6613]

@@davidkucsera8277 me too, works and feels great.

[@umbroraban1075]

@@davidkucsera8277 indeed, I do my workout in the morning fasted. I have experimented with eating before the gym but I have noticed that it does not make any difference.

[@dianabailey9757]

Getting to the point is so hard for academics. Be consistent. An hour 4days a week and strength training a few times per week does the job! Done.

[@saikame5833]

I was going to say this. Personally, you can do a 6 day split. 3 day Zone 2, 3 day lift. If you're training more endurance-based, replace a lift day with speed work, fartliks, etc etc. Also, active rest is key for rest days imo. The largest issue, though, is that flexibility and breathing techniques are something a lot of folks don't train. And tbh, it's so hard to work in flexibility work but it's also an important part of training.

[@WillTio13]

For most of my life I exercised 5-6 days a week, mixing strength, Hiit, basketball and endurance. Then depression hit me and I almost stopped everything for close to a year. I was so afraid to lose all the muscle and performance I built for decades. Recently I've been feeling better and started training regulary again and to my surprise my physique dont disappear completely, I still look fit compared to general people even though I probably lost more than half of my muscle and performance. Also my body bounced back pretty quickly as well. What I didnt realized during that year I spent 1-2 hours a day taking care of 9 stray cats I adopted and those were definitely a zone 2 exercise 1-2 hours a day, 7 days a week. Im just sharing my experience so people who are very busy, currently not in the best condition, or in a mental struggle and lost all motivation can do this kind of activity. Then when youre back to your own self you would be thankful. Keep fighting everyone, youre stronger than you thought.

[@duckiew7732]

❤

[@blammo8208]

did the depression come before or after the cats? There is a strange link between the toxoplasmosis in the cats and depression and odd behavioural changes is humans and other animals

[@blackcatsarenopussies]

Weights - Monday Wednesday Friday Zone 2 or fartlek only 30 minutes plus warm up - Tuesday and Thursday 8 X 1 min all out with 2 min rest or some other speed or intervals on Saturday Sometimes I skip a session if I don't feel like it. I'm just a regular guy at 52 and not a fucking warrior going thru midlife crisis. Managed to avoid injuries and still superrfit, like doing more than 50 pushups, 20 pull-ups. Secret is don't overtrain, don't overthink, take a day off when you don't feel like pushing, it's ok 35 hrs/week or some crazy shit I hear...Folks, I know professional athletes that don't train that much

[@Joe-fi4hv]

Hey, don't knock the midlife crisis. Better to spend it in Zone 2 then by blowing the family nest egg on a used Corvette, an ear piercing, and a weird tattoo. 😁

[@blackcatsarenopussies]

@@Joe-fi4hv haha, good one. Went thru it earlier😁

[@saikame5833]

I'd add in as well, depending on your goals. You could do 2-full body workouts per week and focusing on core, stability, and posterior chain for 1 of those days. Replace a workout day with a 2nd speed workout day. This is really for race readiness though. At least, it's what I do. I do 2-hard heavy lifting days a week focusing on my running weaknesses (for me it's hamstring, glutes, core) so I put more focus on them. If I'm not getting ready for race, then it's a 3x3 split. 3 days lift, 3 days run. 1 day active rest.

[@blackcatsarenopussies]

@saikame5833 exactly, well pointed. It's all goal depending. I have 2: stay injury free and maintain muscle as I will soon hit 54. I never focused on a specific body part, I just try to cover all muscle groups. But that's just what works for me

[@rickguymon7702]

That is a lot of time when you factor in any strength training too. I am retired and think that is a lot time. I am sure people still working and have a children would have major issues meeting that.

[@deathbybears]

That's what it takes. Take it or leave it.

[@SavedbybGrace]

80,000 kms on Zwift since April 2016. Plus what I do on the road. State Road race title & other wins… yep, all those long Zone 2/3 Zwift rides work without a doubt.

[@JamesParus]

Electric bicycle is great for this. You can follow the pulse and it stays very constant and can use the assistance level to adjust it.

[@ukaszgandecki9106]

what do you mean? biking outdoor? you want to follow the pulse and manually change the assistance level? Traffic/lights/hills would make it difficult, no?

[@luciouspontorro3741]

I NEVER thought id be able to get my zone 2 ride duration up to what is recommended here. I've been doing structured training for about 6 months indoor trainer. Started with 45 min Zone 2 and I'm now up to 2hrs plus warmup/cool down. *BIGGEST helpers imo* 1) I invested in a good set of bib shorts. 2) I program some intervals into the zone 2 (power still in zone 2) which breaks up the monotony) 3) I listen to audiobooks I'm actually interested in. I don't think I will do Z2 beyond 2 hrs ever though. I do 3 Z2 rides a week. 1 Vo2 workout. 1 Threshold ride.

[@TurKishsoulja]

What is the recommended zone 2 training per week??

[@KlgoCorvarad]

4 dias 1 hora 30 min@@TurKishsoulja

[@taiiiz3969]

Doing power during your zone 2 and not at the end renders it moot

[@luciouspontorro3741]

@@taiiiz3969 what does this mean?

[@taiiiz3969]

@@luciouspontorro3741 the benefits of zone 2 get stunted if you go too hard, if you enter into a primarily glycolitic state during your zone 2 it takes up to half an hour for you go get into "true" zone 2 again, that's why you should do hard exercises after your zone 2, not during or before

[@sarahrusby2799]

I appreciate the info but to say that 1-1/2 hrs 4+ times/week is doable for most people plus strength training, stretching, HIIT. I appreciate that he’s saying this is what is needed, but most ppl don’t have 9 hrs/wk for this if the work a 40+ hr week and have kids/dogs/spouses. Then it sets ppl up for failure as they say “I can’t do this” and don’t try. Not to mention there’s data about women over 40 having cortisol increases for steady state work over 30-45 minutes.

[@VeganStrong]

it's tough, but if you're really serious about training, you'll find a way. it usually comes down to discipline to go to sleep early, and the will power to wake up early. with a full plate of kids and a job, gotta get the work done before everyone else wakes up. usually 40 minutes of zone 2, and 40 minutes of resistance training, 4-5 days per week, is all you need

[@TheDudeWatches]

It can be challenging. Some people have no issues watching Netflix or social media for 9 hrs per week, but ask them to exercise and it's an endless list of excuses. Sorry, not sorry. Make it a priority.

[@Journeymanlive]

you could do 3 x 40mn of cardio ( 2h) + 3 x 40mn of strengh, that's 4 hours. it's VERY good. But if you can do 30mn here and there, just do what you can! life can only fit so much, it's already good to consider it and try fitting it in. best of luck

[@Yeeyu77]

Boohoo

[@jmass4207]

To be clear, we ought to get an hour of zone 2 training about 4 times a week or more to really see results once we’re already beyond a novice/diseased state? That is quite a bit if you’re trying to get a reasonable amount of resistance and high intensity training in.

[@michaelkohn883]

How difficult is it to just say something like: The ideal time and frequency is 4 times a week @ 2 hour sessions (for a total of 8 hours/week) for 5 weeks of zone 2, followed by one week (insert whatever that week should be)? Then you can discuss the range above and below as well as how determine your individual sweet spot…

[@MrEcted]

Perhaps as easy as it might be for you to write snide comments about free information handed to you by one of the most respected trainers in sports.

[@Mrnobody957]

Well said. Two rambling baboons here

[@michaelkohn883]

@@MrEcted These are two "experts" in their fields - I listened to the entire podcast and yet couldn't quite get the jist of it (except that it depends - kinda sorta)- so I guess one gets what they pay for... and BTW if you think your are listening to "free" information, well you're not.

[@MrEcted]

@@michaelkohn883 You can put "experts" in quotes as some sort of attempted slight, but San Millán is genuinely respected in the field and qualified. How much did it cost you to listen to the podcast? If you couldn't understand it then maybe that says more about you than it does about them, what was so hard to understand?

[@alejndraalmirowitsch4897]

Agree, what i really get from the clip is 3-4x frequency seems to be ideal (but actually, 5-6x is even better). For duration, 1-2 hr range is ideal. But yet again, imo, just try to steadily increase the total duration per week to about that (implicit) sweet spot of 6-10 hrs a week. The most important thing (which is not emphasized enough based on the clip) is to start from what your level is currently at and what your schedule allows. If you can't even do an hour a week, then don't force yourself to do 8 hrs a week. My point is, most ppl think that "optimal dose" is the dose you should start right away but no, its should be a reasonable milestone to aim for. You could go further after you achieve that milestone, but you maybe will get diminishing marginal benefits. I can totally see if total newbs watching this clip and still get clueless afterward lmao, not their fault really it's just the speakers are not clear enough on communicating it.

[@ptkewl]

Totally felt what he said about not being able to stand being on the trainer for an hour… that’s why Zwift is so amazing for me.

[@rockhopper01]

Yep. My indoor limit is 2 hours with Zwift. I would struggle getting just 30 minutes indoors before Zwift.

[@ookiee1]

What is Zwift?

[@ptkewl]

@@ookiee1 on-line training platform. I love it. Recommend for safer training for sure.

[@gangu11]

I got walking golf membership last year and tried to play 3 -9 hole rounds a week. That melted my fat like crazy. Now after watching exercise zone videos, it makes sense

[@bobwilliams9061]

Once you get a stent in your heart you get motivated. I do a 55 minute cardio split at 50 minutes zone 2 and 5 minutes zone 5 for 3 X week. Lift to failure 3 X week. Sucks but necessary

[@TruTube.1.]

Avoiding Obesity/ Diabetes / Heart Disease. That's my Motivation.

[@muysabroson]

I'm copying your workout plan 🤣💆

[@4plum]

I live exercising and working out!

[@bobwilliams9061]

check out Mike Mentzer for HIT training.@@muysabroson

[@MrHarpic]

Good to know that you asre doing great. Take care.

[@drmitofit2673]

I retired 8 months ago at age 59.5 after falling off my exercise routine due to the pandemic. BMI was 25, lower muscle tone, muscle cramps on slow bicycle hill climbs, could only do 4 pull ups. Started training alternating days with HIIT hill repeat bicycling (zone 2 and 3) and strength training (push ups and pull ups). Gradually over 7 months, I lost 12 lbs, BMI came down to 23.2, worked up to 40 pull ups in a row (amazing for my age), and now attack the hills out of the saddle. However, I plateaued in weight loss. I recently replaced some hill repeat bike rides with 50-60 minute sessions on a KSports Tennis Rebounder alternating forehand backhand shots with power and footwork with ball feed frequency of every 2 seconds (faster than actual court play). This is pure sustained zone 2 aerobic training with higher breathing rate and sweating but not gasping for breath. In just two weeks, this change allowed me to break through and lose 2 stubborn additional pounds of fat, BMI now 22.9, below my lean high school/college weight yet at my personal best at 40 pull ups in one set at age 60. I believe zone 3 is great for mitochondrial biogenesis (power, athletic performance, and endurance), but alternating with sustained zone 2 training is good for fat burning weight loss. I recommend an alternating combination of HIIT and pure zone 2, as well as strength training. Basically, the HIIT type training I was doing is optimal for building the "engine" (could be done on a treadmill with incline sprinting), whereas pure zone 2 training (steady moderate pace jogging on a treadmill) is optimal for burning through the "fuel" and losing weight. Combinations are good for strength gains, power, endurance, fat burning, and weight loss.

[@igorkote6149]

Good explanation! Thank you!

[@davidlakes5087]

You can’t out-exercise your mouth!

[@BigPictureYT]

I find that getting up at dawn and walking in nature has multiple benefits. I walk briskly, but am still able to talk. It is an investment in life, and I make it a priority.

[@victorleon1563]

Yes I agree ⚘️

[@funguy74]

You can get zone 2 from walking?

[@BigPictureYT]

@@funguy74 The expert say that if you walk so briskly that you are huffing and puffing and cannot carry on a conversation, you are going too fast for zone 2. If you were talking on a phone and they could not tell that you were walking, you are going too slow for zone 2.

[@funguy74]

@@BigPictureYT i can't get out of zone 1 no matter how fast i walk. It depends on your fitness level. I didn't know people can walk in zone 2. Interesting!

[@BigPictureYT]

@@funguy74 How are you measuring it? Walking has lots of health benefits, regardless of the zone.

[@ilanpi]

Have you read Nils van der Poel's essay on how to win a 10k speed skating race? He outlines his 18 month plan, which was mostly based on 35 hours a week of zone 2 training. He published it after winning the Olympic 10k and all the previous 10k races last season, including 2 world records at sea level, which has been unheard of in the last 20 years.

[@pierrex3226]

Lol 35h/w is insane. How much intensity was he doing per week? Because out of 35, even if you only do 5pc at intensity, it's still almost 2h. Ie, a LOT!

[@whydoyouneedmyname6508]

@@pierrex3226 he said 35 hours of zone 2

[@Ambient.outdoors]

@@pierrex3226 you can find his compendium online. I think it’s called ‘how to skate 10k’ or something like that. He did train A LOT 😅

[@davidlyness4751]

He is having a bit of fun with everyone ha ha

[@christopherhaak9824]

His training was actually very sane and reasoned. Five long days a week like you mentioned, but he took weekends off, socialized and indulged in food treats on the weekends. His zone 2 training was all on the bike, and his higher zone training was on skates.

[@communicationiskey-]

Good topic and 2 points: Since this podcast seems to be geared towards people who are new or re-new in the sport it would be nice if you did not use complex terminology but keeped your wording in Lyman’s terms that a 15 year old would understand. This is not just 2 Doctors having a conversation but 2 doctors trying to make a point to people (re)starting in sport. As an example, people now days use the word “calories” but when you ask them what is a calorie they do no know how to respond. I am very average in sports and jog 6x45mn per week and also row 3x30mm per week. It allows me to lose weight when I need to and also stay fit all year around. If you had told me when I started I needed to run 1.0 to 1.5 hours, 3-5 times per week I would not have started running. I think for anyone starting, 15mm to 30mm per session is a good way to start 2-3 times per week. The “how often“ comes in naturally as one sees improvements. It’s not about results one may have seen in the lab but personal mental, physical and schedule adaptation one needs to incorporate in one’s life, which can take some time (Change). Again, the idea of this podcast is not only to explain Zone2 but also to get people moving and introduce them to what it feels like to be more fit. Running/jogging in Zone2, 80% of the time is my new recent discovery. The other 20% at higher levels to teach my body its potential and subsequently lowering my heart rate in order to run faster when we go back to Zone2. Respectfully of course..

[@toomanymarys7355]

He pointed out that walking is zone 2 for many obese. And 45 min X 3 is less than 30 X 5.

[@77hodag]

This is what I do on my bike: set my Garmin to record “time in zone 2”, ride to a local long, gradual hill & keep my power in zone 2 (150-200W for me) as I’m climbing. When I get to around 90 minutes accumulated in zone 2, I call it a day. Goal is 2x/wk.

[@Redisdowntoearth]

will try that next week once i get my bike back.

[@jedinxf7]

this is brilliantly simple.

[@timmothyburke]

I think something really important for people to look into is the bike seat and blood flow. Lasting permanent damage can be caused by restricting blood flow from a seat that is not suited for someone that is heavy. There are seats that can help avoid this.

[@JayMerchantPhD]

What seats specifically? I'm a big guy (280 lbs) and I can't find a comfortable road bike seat.

[@juliustan1494]

It’s a good point. My thought is saddle choice is important but I think it’s secondary to proper bike fit and biomechanics (lots of DIY fit videos available on KZbin or go to a local fitter). Best if you can do both and a proper fitter will help you choose the best saddle for you as well.

[@sampotter4455]

Good information, thank you. It would really be nice in conversations like this if we could nail down a clear recommendation (for example, 1.5 hours, 4x/ week) clearly and early in the conversation that would be really great and give some context to all the details.

[@ironmike7353]

everybody is different, every body!

[@KBorePC]

I think the best recommendation is As frequently as you can for as long as you can consistently do. I can consistently do 30mins everyday and anything else is an extra. The best recommendation doesn’t matter if it’s not something you can realistically achieve. Be consistent over everything

[@rkulla]

It's so confusing how every video on HR zones conflates "zone 2" despite usually talking about the different versions (LTHR, FTP, MHR, MAF). People in every HR zone video comment section seem more confused than they were before they watched! Coupled with HR monitors / measurements still largely being rough estimates and perfectionism not mattering to anyone but athletes. In the mean time I'll just be doing Huberman's Zone 2 definition of any exercise that gets the heart pumping and breathing up just to the point of not being able to speak/nasal breathing for 3+ hours a week. Peter has suggested this as well but tends to get more into the strict lactate threshold version but I don't think it's helping the average person to be confined to wattage on a bike or being overly fixated on numbers, other than time.

[@wendyhutchinson457]

Yes, I agree. In my opinion, these videos seem to always be splitting hairs. I really don’t want to have to sit through an entire 1:30ish podcast to get what could be conveyed in a 20 min video. I think most of us aren’t as interested in the minutiae as he is. 🤣

[@rythmicwarrior]

Damn. How to make a simple truth as complicated as possible.

[@Brahmdagh]

One of my most favourite episodes.

[@Callitout-kl1uq]

1 hour, 4 days a week. If you can’t do an hour, start shorter and work up to an hour. That is his answer. Painful how long it took him to say that. “I’m a very busy guy.” This guy would have a lot more time if he was efficient!

[@maccamack419]

I feel the rower is more of an intense workout, I used to bike then moved to rowing and never looked back. Great content. 👍🏼

[@ShawnStradamus520]

I had a coach tell me years ago that it was absolutely critical when doing Z2 max fat oxidation work to avoid power outputs above that level AT ALL during the workout because once you did the metabolic energy system would move into a higher glycogen burning state and it would not reset just by lowing intensity back down below that threshold again during the same workout, that it would actually take hours to reset. I have not seen this specific aspect of this Z2 training protocol spelled out this way in other literature on the subject and I wonder if you agree?

[@gordonprice695]

I am trying to understand how this can be true, given that I can do a fasted 200 km ride, 8+ hours without any food, at mostly Z2, but a fair amount of Z3 if the wind is up, and some Z4 depending on the route. If it would take hours before my body could get back to using fat, and I didn't eat anything, the ONLY possible source of carbs would be muscle breakdown and gluconeogenesis. But I manage to maintain muscle mass just fine. And adaptation applies to lots of things. If the stimulus is varied intensities, the body will adapt to handle that, and do it without muscle breakdown. I can see an athlete wanting to absolutely optimize for mitochondrial density for the competitive advantage, but I think it's just that, optimization. You can mix zones, you just get less optimal results. But real life is not optimal, it's good enough.

[@toomanymarys7355]

Can't be true or mid length racers would not benefit from glycogen.

[@Niala8419]

@@toomanymarys7355 must be true. Pogs coach says exactly this in an interview with GCN.

[@ShawnStradamus520]

@@gordonprice695 It's not that you CAN'T burn fat after you have crossed the Z2 threshold, you will actually burn fat and glycogen in different ratios throughout almost the entire range of exertion levels. It's more that you can't get back to the maximum fat burning state achievable in Z2 until after the 8 hour reset.

[@gordonprice695]

@@ShawnStradamus520 I know. My point is the idea that once you get into the higher zones you stop burning fat and DON'T start again when your heart rate comes down is false. If you are metabolically flexible then you are burning mostly fat at Z2, even if you spent the last 15 minutes on the rivet in Z4, with a sprint into Z5. The video suggests THAT is true, that once you get into higher heart rates it takes hours to return to fat burning. Which is just demonstrably not true, as long as you are metabolically flexible. If I start at 95% fat burning in zone2, and then when I come back to that zone I am at 94%, I am not concerned. The video makes it sound like I will be at 20% fat burning for the next 8 hours, and when I am climbing a big bridge or riding out of a deep tunnel under the river in the first 20 km of a fasted 200km ride, that is obviously just not true. Especially given that my average speed is not really changing. Maybe I average 25-27km/h in the first 50km, but at the end of the ride my overall average is still 23-25, so I am hardly dropping off some sort of fat burning cliff.

[@KevinMaliszewski]

Great talk about metabolic networks in the human body. Look at the studies and metabolic models from Mader and Heck from ‘86, ‘87 and 2004. They described the fat max as maximal pyruvate deficit and calculated added the vo2max in the equation and calculated the mlss out of that. That’s how you can explain the different lactate levels with the same vo2max.

[@MrChocoMoose]

That's a lot of time to dedicate to this type of training, on top of weight training, sauna, etc... I'd love to hear some ideas on how to fit this into everyday activities. Commuting is an obvious one, but I'm thinking of learning to dance salsa, playing drums, ...

[@EdwardsNH]

Easy… retire and spend 3-4 hours a day in the gym. Kidding of course. I have the advantage of being a personal trainer, so I’m in the gym all day anyway. Just do what you can and not stress over it

[@timmyreynolds4313]

Mornings are the way to go. You're probably not going to learn to dance salsa or play drums at 7am. Every night, set your workout clothes in a neat pile with your shoes. Wake up at 6-7am, throw on your clothes, and get out the door. Don't deliberate and wait, just do it. The majority of time is lost just wondering what the right thing to do is. #MoodFollowsAction

[@pierrex3226]

Maybe a commuter bus fitted as a dance studio inside of a sauna? On odd days you setup the drum kit in the sauna

[@toomanymarys7355]

Salsa is zone 2. 😋

[@HkFinn83]

Only way is to find something that you actually love. For me it’s cycling. Some day I’d like to get stronger at swimming and do that for awhile if circumstances allow it. Running I know I could never do, too much like drudgery to me. I think it’s basically psychologically impossible to force yourself to do 10 hours of zone two if you don’t enjoy it

[@josephdirnfeld3593]

3 times a week , 45 minutes running per session is all I can do At zone 2. Plus weight training in between running days.

[@luciouspontorro3741]

@ Joseph I think what you outlined will definitely help you stay fit. The only suggestion I would make is to add 10-20 minutes of higher effort sprint rest intervals to the *END* of one of those runs (see your doctor firts though 😀) just so you end up working more of your anaerobic systems at leat once a week

[@dxcore35]

@@luciouspontorro3741 It is way to much already. He needs time to recover, let him rocover for god sake.

[@brianbirdy3765]

Thanks a lot for this. So the protocol is 1hr to 1hr30mins, 3-5 days per week?

[@Jhorne84]

Insane!!

[@mannysanchez5001]

Just walking puts me in zone 2 im in z2 24/7 im a beast

[@strathound]

I'm experimenting with a hack with this that I want to share. Essentially, my problem is that I don't have time to do long stints of training. So I'm micro-dosing it throughout the day. In the morning, I walk the dog and get .5 miles in. Then I go for a walk and get a mile in. Then I start working. During the day, I'll have a meeting so I get on the stationary bike for 30 minutes. At lunch, I do another mile before eating. Then I eat. Then I do another mile. Then at some point in the afternoon, I get a little break and I do another mile. Each time, heart rate in the 110 to 120 range. I'm trying to get to where I'm doing 5 miles a day in little 30 minute blocks. Some AMAZING things have started to happen. I'm sleeping better. My VO2 went up 4 points in a week. I don't need as much caffeine throughout the day. In fact, today is the first day in 30 years that I didn't need a cup of coffee to get the day started. Yesterday I did a 30 minute HIIT session for VO2 Max training. And today I'm back to recovery mode in Zone 2. This is incredible stuff.

[@johnrathjen36]

Doc talks about getting to your “wattage” for zone 2 training. Without fancy equipment, how do we know what wattage we need or if we are in the proper range when exercising? I have heard of using a simple heart rate monitor with the goal of staying between 60-70% of your Max heat rate - is that ok???

[@Journeymanlive]

the Maffetone formula gives a good estimate of heartbeat rate to target: 180 minus your age. play around that heartbeat, have a sense of your breathing ( nose would be good, not mouth), and effort. check the wattage and estimate what is zone 2 for you. Try to evaluate when zone 3 is reached ( mouth brathing, a little too hard, not sustainable as long etc).

[@giovanbattistafichera8439]

if you're able to keep track of your recovery through HRV monitoring and using an HR strap to accurately measure the impact the training load has on your body you can train every day provided you don't do particularly gruelling sessions for the sake of Strava glory. :D

[@tonyhill2318]

This guy needs to take a class in effective, efficient communication...I've never heard something so simple made so difficult.

[@Callitout-kl1uq]

No kidding!!

[@arturocastelo]

Thank you Iñigo & Peter!

[@ericyen1]

Thank you for the material.

[@sirwalksoftly]

Dr. Attia, I know you advise 45 minutes of a cardio session remaining in Zone 2 throughout. How would you suggest duration with the input of 60-90 minutes from the speaker’s recommendation?

[@pierrex3226]

2x45min, and do more if the movie you're watching is that good?

[@sharknadofartquake2449]

When 46 got my HR monitored by a chest strap and got it to 192 BPM and was trying to find out my MAX HR and could still move so I guess it wasn't my max. Didn't want to keep running in my house because was alone and thought it could be dangerous to stay alive lol and durp. I was hardyhard not HARD David Goggins would say yesterday lol when while wearing a 30 pound weight vest went up and down 4 stair steps 9 inches high each so 3 feet of distance vertically and derp for 100 trips down and back up 100 roundtrips I guess you could say. It took me about 10 minutes. LOL so not gonna be 4 hours in zone 2 this week just 10 minutes or I'll do some more before Wednesday of next week BUT likely I'll just keep adding 2 roundtrips to that number per week so it's going to be a while(16 years to reach 2 miles of distance ROFL) before length of time is 3 hours doing that. I read research results done back in like the 70's where it was discovered that max heart rate for most people is 220 minus age but for like 15 % of people it's like at least a dozen beats above that number. Mine was obviously 18 above that number but again I could keep moving and just stopped because nobody there to give me CPR or whatever can save the life of someone experiencing that. U never even did much cardio before that day just like for 5 or 10 minutes and didn't get my heart rate above 175 so I guess I'm lucky. Now at 48 my Zone 2 is higher than yours is Peter?!

[@renanosilva]

Rocking that Senna t-shirt. Respect.

[@dougmoring7321]

One of the few Attia podcasts I didn't care for. Man put me to sleep.

[@vgvhealth1]

Good information that applies to 1% of the population who’s willing to dedicate >4hrs/wk to aerobic exercise

[@Jett-v9w]

Agree that frequency, duration is personal (throw in age too) though frequency alone could give incremental gains over a single long session. Eg. Improve Glucose, RHR, HRV, VO2max. Recovery and rest days invaluable too with many useful sensors out there like Morpheus

[@BruizerBlue]

Weight Training Probably about 75 Minutes Monday, Wednesday, Friday Tuesday, Thursday 15 Minutes Zone 5 then 60 Minutes of Zone 2 Zone 2 is 4MPH at 15% Incline Walk

[@ashtronaut1]

Quick question - Would the mitochondrial changes be exclusive to the muscles used in the Zone 2 training? ie. Would Zone 2 training via Swimming help in endurance in Running? Also big thanks for the knowledge - I've started Zone 2 (been a month) myself after years of High Intensity training and have reaped MASSIVE benefits in terms of endurance, recovery, sleep, general overall health via calmness etc. Super stuff!

[@scousertommy8220]

The mitochondria does not distinguish between the different types of exercise you undertake. All it knows & reacts to is the exertion effort of the body. Building endurance in swimming will have a effect in running, but not in the muscles needed for running. Hope this helps.

[@bobbobson4030]

But what about upper body Vs lower body activity? Aren't the mitochondria localised?

[@r_ds8057]

Actually...think somewhere else they said it is a localized benefit in terms of mitochondria?

[@meiyingwang]

Can you do 30min zone 2 in the morning and 30min zone 2 in the afternoon on a regular basis to accumulate 1 hr in a day, as suggested by Dr. San-Milán?

[@danread1997]

I think its more effective when done in one sitting, but any time in Z2 is better than none!

[@harryv6752]

Just get up and move. Throw in some strength training along with some mobility and flexibility training. If you're strapped for time or out of shape or just staring out, you can easily spend at least 15-30min a day exercising and getting your heartrate up. Keep it simple. And the results will come. The goal is to be active, not sedentary, regardless of how you train. Keep on rockin'! 🤘

[@bobp5523]

I was looking for guidance and all I got was confusion. Currently I work out virtually every day for between 30 and 90 minutes. If one does Zone 2, 4 days a week, it only leaves 3 days to do other stuff, including strength and other aerobic work. Further, Dr Inigo said doing Zone 2 training only twice a week would not be very beneficial. Half of my workouts are HIIT cardio or combined HIIT cardio plus strength training. The other half are more traditional cardio, but often I creep above Zone 2 (can carry on a conversation) and get into Zone 3 (can talk but a sentence at a time). My thought was to do two strict Zone 2 workouts a week (duration 60 to 90 minutes) to replace one of my HIIT workouts and one of my traditional cardio workouts. Strict Zone 2 on a spinning bike, elliptical machine, or stair machine is pretty boring. So if I have to do that 4 times a week to reap the benefits, and have only 3 days for more fun stuff, I doubt I'll be able to stick to it.

[@PeteMatheson]

Came here to say the same. This video is quite conflicting. Assume you have 6 hours of fitness per week. Half of that is already gone to strength training because it’s so important. That’s 3 hours left. 1 of those surely should be on Vo2 max at minimum. Which leaves 2 hours for Zone 2, which he says isn’t enough. 🤷🏼‍♂️

[@rk5782]

Ideal: 4-6 days at 1-1.5 hrs per day

[@BogotaEnglish]

How about the studies saying that after 3 hrs of continuous exertion there is no more mitochondrial growth?

[@donaldberry4181]

I would love to hear Dr. Attia’s response to the following criticism. He has stated that zone three and zone for our basically worthless but this would be the average zone of a game of basketball for example. Making a game of basketball then essentially worthless from a cardiovascular standpoint. Is that the case? Is it really that we should be going so slow that back in the day our coach would have said we were phoning it in and that anything between this pace and a flat out run for your life is worthless.? Or is it just that we haven’t figured out how to measure the health benefits of zone three and zone for?

[@dylan-cj1cg]

I’m pretty sure a full time basketball player is used to it.

[@EntropyOCD]

Why is Zone 2 the ticket to mitochondrial efficiency? Why not Zone 3? Zone 2 I can breath normal. Zone 3 I feel like I am trying.

[@SteamShinobi]

That's exactly why. Its because zone 2 uses oxygen alone and zones above that dip into glyco and phos. Its the aerobic that matters.

[@hazembata]

Are calisthenics considered strength training? Thank you for all your knowledge.

[@Panironic]

I would say yes. In Greg Lemond's book he said he did calisthenics. However, he only mentions it during his winter season training section. He doesn't go into much detail about frequency and amount, and didn't say anything about it during his race season section.

[@bugsbunny4172]

Great video and plenty of useful info. May seen like a silly question … can we do 2x 20 mins sessions in one day but at different times?

[@crmannino3781]

This San Millian doc is quite reticent to give his expertise

[@bmp713]

They are talking about Zone 3 training 70-80% max heart rate, not Zone 2 which is 60-70% for nearly everyone except elite athletes. Zone 3 is basically maximum steady state 130-150HR for most people.

[@HN-er2km]

Awesome discussion. Thanks.

[@321Tdog]

Impossible to fit all that in with strength training, recovery and living a life

[@redtestarossa]

No shortcuts 15-30 hours per week Z2. You will see massive gains. Sleep, good quality protein snd low stress.

[@oolala53]

Rather discouraging. It sounds like a lot of precision and longer sessions than I hoped. Guess I will content myself for awhile with suboptimal workouts rather than WTH response .

[@seancornejo]

So The recommendation is 60-90min 4x a week. If you plan on adding this on to another exercise priority, that’s a gigantic time suck

[@mikey.1205]

If you pay attention to what's being said, anything other than zone 2 training is the time suck.

[@user-rl3ef4ju9k]

Make this the priority for 4-6 weeks.

[@watcherworld5873]

I am glad to hear something saying zone 2 training is helpful. All I heard recently was HIIT. I do about 80 mins of walk/run 3 times or more a week. I did that to burn off the calories from the previous day before breakfast. I normally try to burn about 700 calories according to my Fitbit. Oh, I also do this to be outdoors in the daylight.

[@dc2090]

totally agree, so many gym bros etc, saying HIIT is the best, only thing I do, I'm like, well you're missing some key heart zone 2 work.

[@hiitaddict1774]

The best is to mix in a bit of both each week. HIIT is especially useful if you literally don't have the time for a long Zone 2 ride, so instead of totally skipping the workout you can fit in a shorter HIIT.

[@watcherworld5873]

@@hiitaddict1774 True. Another use for HIIT is when you are out of shape from a hiatus. You can always HIIT even when you are too out of shape for a sustained run.

[@pierrex3226]

The answer is both. Anything extreme is usually bullshit. Veganism is bullshit, eating only meat is bullshit, doing only hiit is bullshit, never doing hard efforts is bullshit

[@BeowolfNindoJournal]

Have yous read Tactical Barbell II: Conditioning? Probably one of the earliest books I read that explains how important it is to train zone 2

[@franks_fishing11]

Will zone 2 help you heal the muscles while working out with weights?

[@Shouldbeeasier]

How to make something simple sound complicated

[@garethowen2006]

I prefer to use a stationary bike too. I also only eat food cubes, breathe oxygen from tanks, water distilled by trained scientist, light from uv lamps and use tubes to extract waste products from my body. It's the only way to live. 😉

[@edudutra]

Nice Senna t-shirt. As a brazilian I couldn't help notice it.

[@Simon-d8n]

Should I not eat at. All. After zone 2. After or a small meal is fine. And a little protein is fine. On the day of training.

[@SpeedBoosted136]

How important is CADENCE for maximizing Aerobic System growth? For example: i do 170watt at 140bpm on 75 cadence, which feels natural to me, but when i bump cadence to 85-90 my HR rises to 145-148. Which is best for Aerobic system development.....to work 170w at 75 cadence at 140bpm or 150w at 90 cadence at 140 rpm?

[@paulbud6216]

Cadence 75 is enough therefore be happy with that platform😉

[@ricf9592]

I train at 60 rpm. For that cadence I get the maximum power output for any HR. In fact, for me 62 rpm is the absolute sweet spot once warmed up. But this is for zone 2. If I really blast a ride, my cadence rises to 70 rpm. My VO2 Max has gone from 56.0 to 83.0 in one year.

[@emmalab02]

At age 49 I’ve been doing stationary bike rides at 98-106RPM with 148-154BPM for 10mi (~35min) 2xWK and for 20mi (~68min) 2xWK since December, but am not sure how that correlates to the Zone 2 training they talk about; it’s Zone 4 (orange) on my Garmin watch using a chest strap HRM, but the only sensors I have on my bike are speed and cadence, so I don’t know my wattage or how to calculate it.

[@Sanford63]

Zone 2 sounds like the longevity ticket, but who has that much time? I already train 5 days/week, 90 mins per day, primarily strength, with mobility, and conditioning at the end. I work retail and am on my feet all day at work and work the 2 days I don’t train. I’m a 58 yof.

[@MaikeLDave]

Agree. I love the idea but who has 2 hours daily for training ?

[@jfreck]

Work harder

[@miroeight]

That's plenty of time. Here's what I would do with that time: I'd have two days of 1hr zone 2, followed by half an hour of strength. That's about 10-12 sets where I would focus on the bigger muscles - chest, back, quads, glutes, say 3 sets each. I would also have a pure cardio day, with 1hr of zone 2, and 20min of HIIT/zone 5 and finish with 10 min abs. Then I would have two days with 60 min strength, about 10 minutes of abs, and 20 of mobility/flexibility

[@lukefromtexas]

I make sure I do my zone 2 while listening to podcast or watching shows that I would have watched anyway. In general if your weight training is longer than 50-60 minutes, you're probably doing too much.

[@Sanford63]

@@lukefromtexas nah, that’s how long to do everything, warmup, mobility work, warmup sets, building the bar, working sets, taking apart bar, putting it all away, accessories, some conditioning, etc

[@chaddyboy]

Forgive me if someone already answered this but I haven’t seen it in the comments yet..for a guy like me who’s not trying to be an “athlete” just trying to get in shape and stay in shape. Who weight trains and runs 3-4 days a week…should all of my runs just stay zone 2? I have to add I’ve been running for about 4 years and up until like last week..those runs have been zone 3 and 4. I literally just learned about zones and why I haven’t been making as much progress at least when it comes to burning fat.

[@pogiong8124]

tnx alot doc

[@chuckfrizzell8668]

How does heart rate zone 2 correlate to zone 2 power wattage? I’m old school and can’t justify buying a power meter set up. I use a polar heart rate strap. At 63 years of age I have an observed max hr of 161. I have been a competitive cyclist for more than 30 years. Any info appreciated. From Colorado Springs Colorado.

[@renewtherapy6520]

Check out his Q&A on how to understand his definition of Z2. kzbin.info/www/bejne/qqmvo4Geq516jZI

[@888jucu]

I also come from heart rate monitor generation although I have switched to power now. Anyway that said a zone 2 workout would have yoir HR 69

[@TPS2525]

If zone 2, go by heart rate. You are training for endurance of the heart not the power.

[@idahardy4052]

I can do that much, as a homemaker, but my husband cannot possibly. He can get 40 minutes of zone 2 cardio, three days a week, tops. On the weekend, he works here on the ranch - heavy labor, cutting down trees, building, lifting heavy things and doing tractor and truck maintenance. I’m a trained exercise physiologist so I give him 15 minute strength and flexibility work he can do when he gets home at night. But there’s only so many hours in the day. We wake up at 5, he heads to the gym and then the office, comes home around 5 or 6, does the 15 minute strength routine, then eats, and at 7:30 we begin the bedtime rituals of walking the dogs (which is not usually in zone 2), showering, and in bed by 9. I can’t imagine pedaling on a trainer for an hour and a half. Maybe to reverse disease, that would be a motivation. But we live in the country and have real work to do caring for the land and the animals. Maybe this advice is more for “city dwellers.”

[@charliesmash]

It’s for anyone that has the time…

[@idahardy4052]

@@charliesmash I guess, but the guest said that they’re just as busy as anyone else. But I’ll bet they don’t wake up at 5 am and have their first meeting at 7 (sometimes earlier.) Also, I can wear whatever I want, but many people are still wearing suits to work and going to meetings in person, in rooms with a big table and chairs.

[@charliesmash]

@@idahardy4052 you do what you can…

[@888jucu]

Your daily routine already spunds tiring and should show good results unless ypu are eating wrong. Quite honestly do what you can and dont stress about it as we are not training for the olympics just good health and your routine sounds pretty healthy 👍

[@thedukeofhinojosa6850]

What if you stager the zone two training as in 4x 15 min as day..... Whould it have the same effect as a straight 1hr session or MUST it be a continuous session to observe all the effects of zone 2 trianing?

[@antonioCsilveira]

This is such an awesome T-shirt.

[@govinda3782]

To estimate my zone 2 without going to a lab what is more accurate, a straight 60-70% of my HRMax (191) or the Karvonen calculation. Big difference for me. Karvonen zone 2 for me is 134-148 and the straight up 60-70% of HrMax is 115-134.

[@danread1997]

Inigo has recommended using perceived exertion as a good measure for Z2 if you can't get to a lab. He isn't on about heart rate zone 2 but blood lactate (which is hard for the normal person to measure out of lab). So maintaining a pace where you can maintain a conversation with a slight more need to breathe is the ball park recommendation from him

[@jamesgarfield9592]

I get that he’s just saying this what he thinks it takes to achieve xyz, but an hour to an hour and a half a day 4 days a week, just for aerobic training, is completely impossible for a normal person with a life to live, sleep to be had, and strength training to get in as well. I guess I’m gonna die young. 🙁

[@justinev7846]

Is it possible to change some things in your life so that you can commit to one hour of walking? Nurse here. Don’t want you to die young over something that’s preventable. Rooting for you!

[@99dynasty]

Lived in Tokyo where life has you walking at least an hour ( total ) a day, wondering if a lower level of intensity but more volume of activity has the same benefits as strictly zone 2

[@evanhadkins5532]

Can you summarise what he had to say about the dose, frequency and duration?

[@conz000]

3-4 days a week minimum (more is better), for 30 minutes for absolute beginners, training towards 1 - 1.5 hours + in Zone 2 (70% max heart rate)

[@evanhadkins5532]

@@conz000 Many thanks

[@najib1]

To stay in Zone 2 continuously for at least one hour 4 times a week is unrealistic for most people - in my humble opinion.

[@bobp5523]

I agree even for people like me that train virtually every day. Variety of exercise and effort is what keeps me from getting stale. Most people, me included, are not going to do multiple workouts in a day. Doing Four Zone 2 sessions would leave me little time to do other workouts. I was considering doing two Zone 2 sessions per week to replace two of my current workouts. But I was discouraged to hear from Dr Inigo that it won't be much benefit to do only two of that type (and five of other types).

[@AndyMorrisArt]

He took forever and I'm still not clear. I think he said 1 1/2 hours 4 times a week in Zone 2 did I understand correctly? That's like running 32 miles a week. I'm very surprised that it requires this much time.

[@mfh6982]

This junk science is fine for the moderate exercise enthusiast, where doing anything is better than nothing. But this is not a discussion for the competitive high-performance athlete where their outcomes are paramount. And this difference is everything.

[@silasrobertshaw8122]

It's interesting that Dr A says he can't stay in zone 2 out on the road. It does take a bit of focus, but it is mostly just not trying to maintain speed in spite of the grade or wind, or trying to get back up to speed quickly at a light. It's a mistake I have definitely made for most of my life. Just gotta go a little easier.

[@ericbolz]

How does age play into the duration and frequency of Zone 2 training? At 66, I don't recover as quickly as younger people. I can walk every day but I can't run that often.

[@charlesoneill466]

Love the video. My feet kill me with this much zone 2. I am pretty fit. Do more pull ups and resistance training because as a 68 year old man i can. I tried elliptical, walking in the zone, and 18 minutes hiit per week. With weight lifting i just go to another muscle group. I usually get 10 to 20k steps per day. If i keep up with the Zone 2 my feet kill me till i give up Z2. What are you guys doing? I take anti inflamatories to help with sleep.

[@bryantcofty2709]

My issue is timing, rather than having the actual time to train. I want to do all of my training, including zone 2, fasted and my mornings are very busy. Getting 2 sessions in post weight training would go a long way in resolving my morning time crunch issue but I believe I've heard Peter mention that it's not ideal. I could do it post dinner (6-8 o'clock) but that doesn't seem very ideal either. I suppose it would assist with flat lining my post meal insulin though. I'm also wondering how it would affect my sleep?

[@drewswomley7787]

i have found that starting work earlier, and getting a longer lunch to allow for Z2 training, and then trying to lift before dinner works for me. because then i eat and my body has time to relax before bed. I also don't like working out late at night because then i don't have time to destress before bed

[@nyalimuir4103]

Bryant interesting share. Thanks 😃

[@nyalimuir4103]

@@drewswomley7787 interesting share and strategy, thanks 😀

[@toomanymarys7355]

What's wrong with after dinner? Fasted carfio kills me.

[@jmass4207]

I’ll go out on a limb and guess so long as you’ve got about 2 hours between cardio and bed, the benefits to the cardio will outweigh the drawbacks of slightly less optimal sleep.

[@ehrix4468]

Me cycling normally my heart rate (if I’m chilling) is hitting maybe 140-150 but if I’m trying to go a bit faster (having some fun with it) I’m hitting 160-190. It’s hard for me to even hit zone 2 when chilling.

[@MrCabimero]

Maybe I am missing something, but this is very confusing. How much, how often? For beginner? For someone in good shape?

[@whydoyouneedmyname6508]

How long does it take to start seeing the benefits from an hour of zone 2 training, 6 days a week?

[@jeffheine3947]

If you’re in tune with your body by the end of the first week you’d notice results

[@user-vk7qv4uc2c]

I try to do 15-20 minutes of zone 2 cardio every morning before work just to wake up and start my day. This way i already have 90-120 minutes every week. I also do a few longer joggs to get to the 180 minutes. But the 15-20 minutes every morning is to short for the benefits?

[@bobp5523]

That's the implication from the presentation. But IMO 15-20 minutes every morning is way better than 0 minutes every morning.

[@Old_Sailor85]

What about folks stuck on meds that limit heart rate (beta blockers, c-channel blockers, etc.)?

[@Rmacnation]

I'm a little thick. I didn't fully grasp what he's saying. My understanding is that the goal would be 60-90 minutes of Zone 2, six times a week? But doing four days is good enough? My other question is, does it have to be in one chunk? I easily get 60-90 minutes a day of Zone 2 but not in a single block.

[@armandodibattista971]

Peter, I wonder if W/kg of body lean mass could be an interesting unit to consider for overweight people, in order to target the proper energy system zone 2, as fat mass would add as it was lean mass. Do you think, we should look at body response hence % of max FC or shall we look at power output hence Watts for determining fat max Zone 2? Last but less important curiosity…when we train in zone two, eg. while bicycling, we get surely mitochondrial boost on those major muscles groups utilised, but does this happens to other tissues, muscles, body organs at the same time? Or to get there we should target all major muscles groups in zone 2? And again what does happen to the organs, are they indirectly targeted due to increased energy demand? Thank you for the excellent work.

[@robert5speed]

Should you train at the top of your zone 2 ? Or at long as it’s zone 2 doesn’t matter

[@Avianthro]

I feel the need for some clarification: The word that needs clarified is "training". My old school, maybe still valid(?), concept of training is that it consists of two parts 1) progressive overload 2) sufficient recovery for the body to adapt (build back better) to the preceding overload. Now, if we go out and do zone 2, low intensity, for an hour let's say, but that one hour at low intensity is not an overload, how can we call it training? If we do 2 hours and that is an overload, then that's training, provided we follow-up with sufficient recovery. If you do zone 2 and it's not an overload session, it may be maintaining but it's not training, is it? Then there's this: Suppose that I do a session in which 80% of the time is low, zone 2, intensity and 20% is high, does that classify as "polarized training" as long as it's an overload followed by recovery, or is there some scientifically proven "magic" in separating the two levels of intensity into two sessions? Is there data that show the two need to be separated in order for us to be correctly doing "polarized training"?

[@user-rl3ef4ju9k]

If you stress your nervous system by doing high intensity on every session you will overload it. That is why you only do a couple high intensity sessions per week and rest of the week stay at zone2.

[@Avianthro]

@@user-rl3ef4ju9k Yes, I realize that we must have recovery between high intensity sessions, but I assume that means a session in which we had a significant amount of high intensity, guess at least 20%, and which had training value, i.e. was an overload. How do we determine if we actually trained, overloaded? By integrating our power as a function of time over the time period of the session. That's the energy we expended in the session, and if it's greater than our running average, then we've done a training session. A training session can be a combo of high and low intensity or purely one or the other. If you do a training session, you then need to recover...no session the next day or a very light, low-energy session well below your running average energy per session. We shouldn't do any more training sessions until we feel fully recovered and we can also see indicators like our resting heart rate being back down to normal, no feeling of DOMS, good energy level, etc.

[@MostAlpha]

How is Zone 2 for BDNF/NTF levels?

[@portiasnyder1812]

What is zone one and two training mean ? I'm not an exercise maniac yet lol just getting started been out of the loop for a bit..