[PF2e] My TOP 3 things I like most (and least) about Pathfinder 2e!

[@Zedrinbot]

By the way, be sure to check out Cloudbreaker Alliance Kickstarter! www.kickstarter.com/projects/cjleung/cloudbreaker-alliance Anyway see ya'll in like another 2 weeks to 6 months when I make my next video! I'm not dead as my community tab will continue to demonstrate, KZbin just isn't my primary platform.

[@numimio]

Might wanna pin this.

[@mikehendon7327]

Backed it, because shiny. All of my games turn into anime parody and other such things anyway, so...

[@adamshea5062]

So knowing Jocat is sponsored by Wotc for his class vids, do you think you will ever think of doing those for pathfinder?

[@Zedrinbot]

@@adamshea5062 if Paizo wanted to sponsor me to do class vids, I honestly would.

[@icarue993]

@@mikehendon7327 I like the animu

[@drgoo2825]

It's neat to acknowledge how a boon of the game can be a frustrating element for someone else.

[@enterchannelname8981]

I couldn't agree more. The options are great, but it's hard as a DM to keep track of all the things that a player picked up. They say to "shoot your monks", or let your players feel powerful with the choices they've picked, but when they have a million feats from a pool of a billion, it can be tough, especially because I'm new to the system

[@peterthedragonslayer]

Loved the video! I will say even though the action tax might not feel great at times; it does allow certain feats and classes to feel stronger. For example, the "quick draw", or "quick shield block" feat.

[@ezekieltamarkin280]

Just to point out something about Point #3- for people who are worried about losing low level enemies at higher levels, PF2 has this enemy type called a Troop. The idea is that it's a whole bunch of low level enemies working together as a single massive armed swarm taking up sixteen fluid spaces. The Troop mechanics aren't hard to learn, and troops are easy to make. In fact, you can set a Troop to be a few levels above the party and that turns the four dozen bandits into a considerable threat to the party by saying they have variety, or have multiple Troops of equal level to the party for having them feel like they're fighting a whole army by themselves. They feel great to run and fight!

[@Zedrinbot]

Yep! And you can also adjust an individual mob to scale up to a different level, if you want an advanced version of a base monster; there's templates in the GMG on how to do that. Still, the annoying part for me has just been having to do that extra step instead of being able to grab a mob and place it in with no frills. Luckily, there's a HUGE number of monsters in the bestiary so I can almost always find the next 'tier' of mob to use, or a troop like you said.

[@ezekieltamarkin280]

@@Zedrinbot Maybe they'll have something for that in the Remaster. I'm looking forward to it, but also getting ready to house rule a number of things. Also, that reminds me, about what you said about Alchemists; did you know that you can Wear up to 2 Bulk worth of tools, consumables, and items? Things you wear can be drawn as a free action instead of needing a whole action to Interact to draw.

[@Zedrinbot]

@@ezekieltamarkin280 oh they already do have it; it's in the GMG, how to adjust monsters. And yeah, you still have to spend an action to draw the item however when it's worn. If it's in your backpack it's two actions to draw an item. It's why quick bomber is such a staple pick, even if you don't specialize in bombs. They might be baking that into the alchemist come remaster, since they wanna cut back on tax feats.

[@ezekieltamarkin280]

​@@Zedrinbot I meant beyond the Weak and Elite templates, scaling things even further beyond [insert yell here] Edit: Thought I typed it in, but I usually houserule the worn action down a step to be free, with backpack being one action to draw out. Guess I forgot that was a house rule. Pardon me ^^'

[@Zedrinbot]

@@ezekieltamarkin280 Oh I'm not talkin about weak/elite. They have tables that show the average stats for various 'builds' of monsters that you can just apply to an existing mob to scale up their physical stats to any level. The elite/weak template is just a way faster approach since it's relative, but are limited to +/- 1 level. You can use the tables to go beyond that and make like, a level 24 ancient red dragon for instance.

[@theman6422]

The first time I started playing PF2e this year, my dm said “hey, go check out how many feats there are on AoN” I scroll down and almost DIED from seeing that. It was like peering into eldritch knowledge that would blow up my brain

[@bionicdragon5]

One thing that always bugged me about 5e (that WOTC still refuses to fix) is how casters' damage potential constantly increases, with cantrips gaining more damage dice at certain character levels and higher spell slots for bigger spells, while martials can only raise their weapon-relevant stats and try to get upgraded weapons that barely change anything. In PF2, martials gain extra damage dice with their weapons as they hone their skills, allowing them to keep up with the casters, instead of just being meat shields. MAY THIS COMMENT SUSTAIN THE ALGORITHM FOR ALL ETERNITY!

[@numimio]

Honestly, because of how good martials are, I find spellcasters to often feel weaker than martials.

[@yuvalgabay1023]

The caster martiels divide is mostly fixed if make long rest longer .. And if not . Its mostly op spells whi make the divide

[@nonsinergizza25]

@@numimiothey definitely feel weaker in the first, say, 4 levels. Some helpful strategies would be to always try getting the enemies on their low saves, gaining an accuracy that is often higher that a fighter’s, and to have the rest of the party use bon mot

[@natanoj16]

​@@numimiomakes sense as we are used to casters being able to fill every role. Personally i love that there are roles that casters cant fill.

[@MrBleachfreak247]

All hail the algorithm

[@spectralsheep]

One of my fav things about 2e is how weaknesses/resistances feel like they matter a lot more than 1e. Preparing with proper damage types or just having multiple weapons on your person can be greatly rewarded since some enemies simply cannot be brute-forced with the same longsword you've been using for every encounter thus far.

[@whitefang2437]

Dont mind me, just feeding the algorithm as instructed.

[@dragonsswarm1987]

Same

[@eoris12]

You guys being payed?? Honestly asking.

[@whitefang2437]

@@eoris12 As much as I wish I was, no.

[@chrismusto5624]

One of my favorite things about Pathfinder 2e is the scaling proficiency. It means that investment in a skill matters, is rewarded, and let's classes that don't key off that ability score still find use for it. For example, say you want to make an intimidating fighter, but have a lower charisma. If you invest in Intimidation, at a certain point, you WILL be more effective at it than a sorcerer who ignored that skill despite their innately higher charisma score.

[@Sunny_Haven]

As someone who's recently been reading into Pathfinder 2e (coming from someone who mostly plays 5e and has played a couple of other TTRPGs), this game makes me so happy and impressed with the sheer amount of depth it all has. I will admit, it is very overwhelming, but the Archives of Nethys make it much easier to get into this stuff before my group even commits to a game. In fact, several of us have been making builds using AoN and other websites like Pathbuilder so we can better understand the game and character creation process and it's been a lot of fun! One of my friends plans to GM a Pathfinder campaign after our current 5e campaign finishes - which likely won't be for a year or so - and I get the feeling that because of AoN, our group is going to be pretty prepared to play Pathfinder by then. Also I'd love to see more Pathfinder videos from you! I've really enjoyed your D&D and Pathfinder videos and seeing your animations alongside your discussions of the games adds to the enjoyment. You're the reason I ever wanted to play Pathfinder in the first place, with your D&D video about homebrewing firearms and saying how you got those rules from how Pathfinder handles firearms.

[@LinkCidolfas]

path 2 whips ass, as an [almost] forever DM, I was worried it would be daunting, but it's been incredibly lightweight. Far less cherry-picking of monsters for encounters, a priceguide for everything and rules so intuitive I guessed a level of an inflicted condition based on the internal logic of the system.

[@Sunny_Haven]

@@LinkCidolfas that last part makes me very impressed, haha! Any time my friends or I look into stuff for Pathfinder, we always find really cool stuff that I just wish was a thing in 5e. Actually, during our D&D session tonight, we were looking at Pathfinder spells during our break and were marveling over the fact that you can become a kaiju or have a dinosaur fort or have a T-Rex as a pet. I can't wait to play the game.

[@LinkCidolfas]

@@Sunny_Haven to be fair, the condition was dying 2;;; getting crit unconscious has consequences

[@BestgirlJordanfish]

What I really appreciate is people just saying they love Pathfinder and why, and their occasional struggles. I think too many PF2E videos are either first impressions or dives into a single mechanic, build, class, etc. And I like those videos, but I think not enough PF2E players and creators actually talk about their stories and joys within play.

[@RoronoaZoroSensei]

Here's a Snack for the Algorithm 🍙 I haven't gotten to play pf2e much yet, but I've read the rules a lot, so I'm glad to hear you say that all the stuff that I think should work really well actually does. One more thing that's really cool is how so many of the monsters have varied unique abilities that make thematic sense. In comparison, 5e monsters most of the time literally just have normal damaging attacks. I think it's the trait system, combined with the 3-action system that allows for this huge variety with only very little text per ability. I'm surprised you didn't mention the trait system as one of the top 3 actually!

[@Zedrinbot]

i had to pick just 3 things for the vid, otherwise it'd be way too long lol I may make "3 MORE things" in the future

[@ramennoodleluvr]

Great praise/criticism of the system. Never played Pathfinder 2e, but it sounds like a healthier version of DnD 5e.

[@ChivalrousyWalrusy]

It is IF you like what it offers. It will be rough for casters though as they're far more balanced compared to previous versions of dnd.

[@mj1mj3]

It can be in some ways

[@esther6138]

what i really love is how easy it is to build a character that is where it needs to be numerically to properly fit inside of the range you need to be in for the sliding bounded accuracy. basically an 18 in your main stat (16 if you know what you’re doing and have a good reason), and find a way to keep your ac from being too low

[@concordiaharmony2302]

Honestly I'd love to see more pathfinder videos in the future. ^^ I've been wanting to get into it as of late and my favorite part is how EVERY choice you make in character creation matters through the whole of the experience

[@natanoj16]

For the monster level range: I have successfully used low level monsters (imps) in a level 10 encounter. But they werent there as a threat to the players, but as environmental hazard to the people in the area. So the players had to take care of the Imps while fighting the level 13 Ice Devil, so innocent bystanders wouldnt be kidnapped ^_^

[@flaviolepri5539]

Loving the dynamic!

[@thegloriousryan8981]

I have to say, I absolutely LOVE the debuff system in pathfinder. I've been watching a lot of media from my childhood for nostalgia, and one of those movies was the first transformers (bayverse). As I rewatched it, I really loved the way that jazz fought (in the one fight he was in) and wanted to make a small wrestler that more makes openings for their allies then actually attacks. Most of my campaigns were in 5e, and I figured that really wouldn't work for those, BUT I had an upcoming pathfinder campaign, and decided to give this character a shot. They've only been in 2 sessions, but MY GOD it has been so much fun. Disarming opponents, tripping them, being able to be the little guy who messes with the big bad thanks to titan wrestler, it's been fantastic, and really makes me excited to look around the system, and really figure out what types of characters are possible.

[@theosmiumnerd2209]

Love the video! I always cheers me up seeing cool content creators talk about this system and how much they enjoy it for the same reasons I do. PF2E just has a great magic to it that deserves to be shared and discussed. I still remember the look on my friend's face the first time he played and learned his 3-Action Heal spell could kill 4 skeletons in a single turn.

[@BasementMinions]

This was so fun to watch. I've also recently fallen in love with PF2E. One of my favorite things is also the companies love for the game. The rules being online for free meant I could just dive in and have now boughten so many books which are so lovingly crafted. Con is definitely people jumping in at higher levels. Had an experience 5E DM do this recently at level 5 and after 3 sessions he's still struggling, but he's slowly getting there. :)

[@little_isalina]

i really like the proficiency without level system, it feels a bit more grounded with not every problem having to become such an astronomical challenge that you dont even have to think about trying it anymore if you arent trained. And unlike with D&D's proficiency system you can still have a tangible difference between someone who has really dedicated themself to a skill vs someone who never touched it Plus the added convenience of not having to go over every modifier on your character sheet every single level and change it up by one.

[@shaundickey4598]

I have subscriptions for the Pathfinder rulebooks and Lost Omens setting books, and I love that I get a pdf copy of the books to read while I'm waiting for the physical ones to ship. Paizo even sends an email if there is ever an errata so that I can download the updated pdf. Not only that, but they toss in minis as a little bonus that comes as a nice surprise when opening the package.

[@laurickatsano2817]

Hey Zedrin. Glad to see you and your work back.

[@mattsullivan2458]

One of the things I like about the system is they implement multiple means of using skills both inside and outside of combat, and have lots of ways to encourage you to use some of those said "skill actions". The downside however, is some of them have not been well constructed(like recall knowledge not being very clearly defined) or some skill actions feeling inferior to others(like disarm).

[@haru-bun]

wake up babe, new zed pathfinder video just dropped :0 lancer next? lancer next? lancer next? lancer next? lancer next?

[@yarnevk]

Sliding Bounded Accuracy was a great way to describe it. It is actually tighter accuracy than 5e because (de)buffs are categorized and cannot stack as easily as with 5e - with everything being leveled that means +/-1 does matter. There is the variant that removes the level as you mentioned that breaks that tight math that enables encounter balancing, so not worth using it if players are just bothered by 'big' modifiers. There is another way to use variant without level on PCs then the GM behind the screen uses proficiency with level difference (de)buffs for NPCs. Mathematically it has the exact same proficiency with level encounter balance of strong bosses with weak lackeys - just with an easier on PCs math presentation level not being in the modifier. And on GM side it is not any worse than any other (de)buff to track.

[@torlight]

Great vid! Absolutely love the classes and how unique and different they can feel from each other, like you mentioned even two people playing the same class can feel totally different. A direct example I have is playing in a campaign with 2 magi, an eldritch trickster rogue, and a wizard - all were arcane casters but not one of them felt remotely the same, even the two magi played very differently because of their character choices

[@gazdenroolay]

been wanting to start PF2e and its nice to just hear different things about it before delving into it. great video!

[@hydrotails]

By far my favourite thing about PF2e is the traits given to equipment. Finally it's not just an arguably bad idea to take things like padded cloth armour because now they have traits that give it a mechanical use for certain playstyles instead of just being the cheap option!

[@b.b.2285]

Pathfinder is such a good system! I'm glad you didn't make it an entire video about how good it is and called out the negatives. I saw Lancer on there! I hope you make a video about it one day.

[@sodapone]

Never played Pathfinder - I've only played D&D 5e, but I've wanted to get into Pathfinder, so this is pretty interesting stuff for me to learn about!

[@JulesJYT]

Several months late but I love listening to your pathfinder opinions/observations, if you were thinking of doing more!

[@DragynSpyre]

You keep getting me more interested in trying PF, but even more than that *That sponsor, holy jeez* I am so interested in that right now.

[@Hacknslaashing]

Being a dm for a small group of 2 players pf2e feels good to run, haven't played with it long enough to say why but I've run similar sized parties with 5e and that feels more clunky to balance. I will also say I have enjoyed the stamina variant rule as a helpful rule for a party with no healers. It feels like there are high stakes with health only recoverable during rest, but also with "short rest" recoverable stamina points so the lack of a healer isn't a death sentence.

[@a_wild_Kirillian]

Cool video! It's interesting, how closely the first two points resonate with my experience of GURPS, both in positive and negative aspects. And then the rules being all available online and in one place is a huge difference, because GURPS is a very closed system. Also, you cannot universally balance anything for GURPS, because your players can spend their points on becoming better swimmers! =D

[@XanderHarris1023]

Came here for the CBA promo and I knew your name sounded familiar. Looking forward to see what monsters you cooked up.

[@rexhex3700]

I've haven't started playing P2e yet but am learning how and I have been loving what I've seen so far. If I had to list my own Likes and Dislikes it would be: - Like: Love the amount of customization offered by choosing your own features, really makes each character I design feel unique and fun in its own way. Also the classes all look super fun! I really want to play a Thaumaturge, the curse master stuff is really cool! - Dislike: While I love the amount of customization, maybe this is just from my inexperience with the system but there seems to be a lot of pointless or weirdly situational feats, especially in the Skill feats. I don't know why I would want a Feat that allows me to have a better chance of a rumor I've heard being true. But I do appreciate that Paizo is at least trying to design for non-combat scenarios. - Mixed: I love the variety of different ancestries offered and how unique they all seem, but it does make it hard to pick one when I don't really understand what they are from just their name (I'm using an app to build characters this might be better if I used the actual books).

[@Hey-Its-Dingo]

My group is finally gonna be doing our first PF2e game in 2 weeks, and I'm excited.

[@flameloude]

For your point two, this is why me and many others suggest comming in with a concept. Concepts are a greate guide that remove a lot of options so you get a character you want.

[@Zedrinbot]

I'll usually walk new players through what choices help them accomplish what they want to do. But usually they just go with the option that has a name that sounds like what they want, rather than the mechanics of it. E.g. I've had several brand new players pick a Witch, cause they think "ooo I wanna do WITCHCRAFT!" and not realize that Witch means focusing on the familiar, sustained focus spells, and prepared spellcasting, and that they'd be way happier playing a sorcerer if they wanna go with a "creepy spellcaster" concept. Plus even if they have a concept or can decide quickly on what they want, it's still a lot of choices to walk through, and you cannot know everything that you want to do from the initial concept. Especially if starting at a higher level, it takes time to pick out options and build a character sheet, even when you have experience with the system.

[@flameloude]

@@Zedrinbot yeah concepts are not a perfect solution. And the list of options are still quite large. I guess I just find that it helps.

[@SolanumStars]

I've honestly been wanting to break into 2e, but my friend group mostly stays with 1e atm. I still greatly enjoy what little I have played, and just learning about it in general.

[@nonsinergizza25]

The algorithm must be fed!

[@francescocazzola2440]

One of my favorite aspects of pf2 is how casters aren't omnipotent, and I say this as someone who has gone a few years without playing a non caster. In dnd 5e and pf1 it's easy for a single wizard to outshine the entire party, something that doesn't really happen in pf2 due to the very limited way you have to mess with saves and the much lower number of truly instant win spells, it has been quite a while since I last looked at a martial and thought "wow that looks crazy good" but pf2 gives them a lot of option to play especially with maneouvers. On the other hand however I'm a bit disappointed with in combat skill uses, it's great that we have them but the scale is heavily in favour of the cha skills (intimidation and deception) and athletics with medicine also being important, while intelligence sure gives you a lot of skill trainings but aside from recall knowledge, which thaumaturge can do arguably better as a cha class, you only really use high intelligence if your class requires it for spellcasting or other features. Casters especially suffer from a lack of a filler action to round out their turn after or before a 2 action spell, be it an intended downside of spellcasting or not cha casters have no problem getting around it while everyone else has way less options.

[@TheAggressivePear]

Grats on the sponsor! Great video!

[@ismailessbiti8706]

Always happy to see your videos, Zedrin

[@DSpiritwolf]

Thanks for the heads up on the free ruling stuff. Been trying to get into pf2. So far it's been looking kind of intimidating compared to 5e but I'm still willing to learn and give it a shot.

[@Cibershadow2]

King ongatonton has some extremely good 7 minute videos explaining the game if you're curious!

[@AmonHa01]

I simply love the video! I love the system but I agree some things here and there can be a little frustrating. This very true in any game, even in the ones we like so much. And I love your input both in the things you like and dislike. Thanks for the video! Oh, I also watch your video about classes and level of difficult. It help me a lot get a hold in the system, and I even show to my players to help them choose about the classes. That being said, Paizo will release another class, the Kineticist, so can we expect a update in that video with the class, or maybe a separate video about it? Or even maybe a new update video with the changes Paizo will do with his Pf2 revised?

[@squeethemog213]

Thanks for another video man. Always looking forward to your uploads. They're fun 😁

[@Braybray93]

One thing I always appreciate about Pathfinder's base setting of Golarion is that instead of having multiple different settings in the multiverse that barely interact, it's just one earth-like world with EVERYTHING on it, plus the planes and some extraterrestrials. You feel like the world has a lot more going on and not every adventure is stuck in the basic setting of fantasy world led by a few kingdoms or city states. Want a dark and moody adventure with horror elements? Go on an adventure through the Immortal Principality of Ustalav. Want something more lighthearted? Try visiting Varisia, the Lost Coast, where an ancient empire died (and recently was revived by some temporal anomalies). Want to have wilderness adventures? Try Nirmathis, a heavily wooded area full of independent freedom lovers in a forever war of independence. Why not explore the subtropical jungles of the Mwangi Expanse, which has a lot of clashes between the native peoples who are extremely culturally developed and the colonial empires who wish to exploit them? Or just go to the desert with the crashed alien colony ship where giant robot scorpions with laser cannon tails fight against conan the barbarian wielding a plasma sword and power armor? Fuck it, let's go to the cold kingdom ruled by a Russian fairy tale government that has some World War I Russian soldiers stuck in after a very bad family reunion? Golarion is a fun world that is genuinely great to explore and learn about, but the system has enough elements that aren't tied to it that you can make your own setting too.

[@paralysekid]

Yeah I totally agree with this. I remember being so disappointed after getting the main D&D books because they barely talked about the in-game setting at all, even though that is what I was most interested in because I as the GM have to make the world feel real. In contrast, just the setting chapter in the Core Rulebook for Pathfinder made me super happy to see so much interesting depth in each of the corners of the world.

[@draegonspawn5361]

Hey congrats on getting a sponsor. And I too love the pathfinder systems.

[@starbomber]

8:33 on this note, can you pump levels into monsters to bring them up to the party's range?

[@Zedrinbot]

yes you can, they have multiple tables for different 'styles' of monsters (experts, bruisers, casters, etc.) to adjust their levels. It is a bit of work though, isn't as fast as the elite/weak templates but it does allow you to scale a monster to any level hypothetically.

[@mirrikybird]

100% agree on all fronts The pros are huge, the flaws are things to be aware of and can even be viewed in a better light It may cost an action or two to change weapons, but those weapons will have vastly different effects. There are 16 weapon *groups*, each with their own cool ability on a crit (if you have the feat), and each group having between 3 - 30 weapons each. Also bludgeoning, slashing, piercing damage actually matters. You'll have a hard time damaging a skeleton with a bow and arrow, but it will shatter if you hit it with a hammer. I can go on all day about this system. It's everything I've been trying to homebrew but much better quality and playtested.

[@TheMarrethiel]

one comment I'll make with high level mobs, you can give them debuffs like Clumsy or Sickened that makes them more of a fight. You can also give the Weak mod which debuffs AC and hit points and works surprisingly well.

[@LinkCidolfas]

Can I just say putting prices on EVERYTHING is the best thing ever. As a GM, I don't have to fiat every goddamn thing, to boot, since they have RULES FOR GRAPPLING, TRIPPING and SHOVING.and Intimidating [Demoralize] has concrete rules. Doing seemingly goofy shit in combat feels meaningful in terms of narratively fulfilling debuffs and genuinely useful. INTELLIGENCE has VALUE in this system oh my god it's not just DEX+CON=WIN. Caster have been humbled compared to that *other* system >.> but who gives a shit? If you wanna be a prepared caster, you actually play a prepared caster, and it's tricky, but really not bad. and Spontaneous casters finally get thrown a bone here, being able to be more flexible with their casting and ALL casters can get metamagic, which is so cool.

[@TheMarrethiel]

I have two favorite all time games. The one closest to dnd is RoleMaster by Iron Crown. Pretty much every dnd edition, except 4th, has essentially picked up things from this game. One thing RM did better than pretty much any other system is the action economy. Your attack bonus, which is a percentile system, could be moved around to your armour class and things that took up a percentage action came of your attack bonus. So for example if drawing a weapon took a 20% action, then 20 would come off your attack. Concentrating on a spell is a 50% action, taking 50 off your skill. Movement took 1 off your skill per foot you moved, up to your maximum movement. So for example, you might be a mid level warrior with an 80 offensive bonus (OB). You turn a corner and are surprised to seen an orc 15 feet away. Drawing your sword and moving to melee drops your OB for that round to (80-20-15=) 45. You then roll percentile dice and add 45, trying to get over the targets armour class. Spell casting used mana, and the spells are much better in general. Mage damage was definately lower than martial types over all but they had lots of utility, buffing and debuffing spells that would change combat. It would be fantastic if Paizo bought out this dead company for and cherry picked the best parts. RM had some real problems, don't get me wrong, so it would be great to see it picked up. Interestingly, Fantasy Grounds Unity does have this system available.

[@quendi5557]

Pathfinder 2e has been a blast to play, not tried a caster yet because I love just hitting things with a stick but everything has just been a tonne of fun to try out.

[@anneaunyme]

About the "action tax" of drawing a weapon, to me this is a good way to handle ambushes: if you ambush someone when their sword is sheated, they will take longer to react than someone who is ready, sword in hand. It also gives more choice: the enemy is too far, do I switch to my bow or do I keep my sword in hand in case they come back? Of course, all that may not work for you if you don't want to make the effort to learn about the system: I have more than once seen the pattern: - "Someone tells me about PF2, I am not to sure about it but I decide to give it a try" - "To reassure me they handhold a lot of the system's complexity for me" - "When I try to do stuff on my own it never works" (like: "casting a charm spell on a mindless undead" or "try a combat manoeuver after 2 attacks", things the game assume you are clever enough to have figured out by now) - "I have the illusion of choice" (no, you just need to understand the rules better) - "I'm done: back to DnD" (DnD isn't better, it's just that you already know its rules as you took the effort to learn them, and you DnDM probably improvises most of their rulings or they would have broken by now)

[@Zedrinbot]

Yeah, I personally like the *result* the action taxes achieve, and the 3 action system is gentler on them. I do sometimes wonder what it'd be like if they took a different approach for some of them however, and designed the system with the intent of fewer taxes while moving the complexity elsewhere. To add to one example to your list, someone in my server once was complaining about how he was playing a Barbarian in PF2, and how it was 'so much worse than 5e' because 'you only ever use your entire turn to move'. He was out-ranged by the enemy, so he used his entire turn moving. Which... I do not see how that is remotely a PF2 exclusive problem, or why you'd do that instead of switching tactics.

[@anneaunyme]

@@Zedrinbot This example strikes true! One player I have in mind played a bard and never once have I seen him use Inspire Courage. And it's not like that player is dumber than average or new to the media: they played for decades and had fun theorycrafting Punpun-like builds, they just for some reason never thought that ability was worth considering. I think there could be a "pulp" version of PF2 where anybody can freely switch between weapons, feat are trimmed to a few that are simple to use, all the spell lists are reduced to a handful of spells per level and you are assumed to know them all... But at some point you have to ask yourself the question "shouldn't I rather use a narrative system?"

[@Zedrinbot]

@@anneaunyme While true, sometimes it IS kinda nice to see hard-coded mechanical elements come into play. Wouldn't necessarily need to be pathfinder either--I know Matt Colville's working on a system that's super pulpy and action movie-esque that has a LOT of improvised fighting and movement in its combat.

[@anneaunyme]

​@@Zedrinbot Sure, and I personally would rather have those hard-coded mechanics presented in the clearest manner, but this can perfectly exist in a narrative system! Take something like Chtulhu Dark: it is very much a narrative game, yet all player have one sanity and one health meters they have to handle if they don't want their character to meet their end. Yet the game works fine for a player who would completely disregard the system : their PC has a lesser chance of survival, but not by that much that it stops them from playing. You can't really "fail at playing the game" here, just succeed in another way. (As a comparison if in PF2 you turn was running to the enemy, trigger a reaction you could have avoided if you were more careful, use one action to recover from this reaction, and finally realize you hadn't drawn your sword yet so use your last action to do that, I could see how it doesn't feel great. It can be solved by DMs being nicer, but one can't expects all DMs to be nice all the time)

[@justiceiro47]

hi, love your videos. and i love your honesty about what you like and doesnt like so much about the system. peace.

[@AKA_Kira]

Both lists were what I predicted and 100% agree with after playing the game since it came out.

[@strwrbttlfrnt]

One thing for me is class uniqueness and playstyle as well as the combat, isn't stand attack end, repeat. I had a little trouble understanding all the options that I could do but it

[@mollymcallister1671]

The one thing that is just a non-starter for me with PF2 is it still adheres to 'fire-and-forget' Vancian magic. The one main change in DnD 5e that I really loved was that they turned spell-slots into a resource and let you prepare spells independently of that. "Oh, you're out of first level spells? You can cast Magic Missile with a 2nd level slot, easy peasy." And it's like that for ALL of the casters. Gone were the days I dreaded playing a caster in 2nd ed. AD&D. "Oh, you want to do anything combat related? Better forget about checking for magical loot or traps with Detect Magic (this was before Ritual Magic was a thing, that's another thing I really like) And you're gonna have to 'prepare' the same spell multiple times if you want to cast it more than once. Nothing really interesting you see for that level of spells in your spellbook? Too bad, you don't wanna prepare any spells of that level? You don't get to use any spell-slots of that level." And I'm already hearing you typing in response, "But the Blah class and the Bleh class have 'at-will casting...'" Yeah-yeah, whatever. Just the presence of Vancian magic in the system just offends me Just That Much, especially when the 5e system just makes that much more sense to me. (yes it means Sorcerors kinda suck in 5e compared to other casters but I digress.)

[@Zedrinbot]

nah that's a legitimate complaint. The fact that spells don't scale with caster level, and that your casting modifier doesn't increase the number of slots you get like 1e, the Vancian magic system winds up feeling a lot more restrictive than it did in 1e, especially when you consider that casters were reigned in a bit. Flexible casting as an archetype does exist, which grants you spellcasting that works like that, but it does require you to give up 1 spell slot of every level so it's not a great solution. Focus points can help quite a bit, since they're inherently flexible and scale with level, but people undervalue them and you only get a couple. Casters still slap but the Vancian magic system has been confusing as hell for new players as well, especially since a lot of new players really gravitate towards the witch based on name alone.

[@chrizzlybear5565]

Here's what helped me appreciate having prepared casters be Vancian: 1) It makes the difference between prepared and spontaneous casters interesting. In 5e, being a "learned caster" instead of a prepared caster is a strict downgrade. In PF2e their flexibility is an actual advantage, which is compensated for by prepared casters getting more spell slots; they're not expected to find a great use for every single spell they prepared, that's why they get more. 2) The flexible caster archetype exists, allowing the prepared spellcasting classes to cast in a 5e-like way. If the whole table agrees, you may even give this archetype out for free to all prepared casters.

[@richarddarma1452]

@@chrizzlybear5565 I feel like It would be better if the Vancian caster have a consistent method of knowing what enemy or hazard they will face during the day. A lot of adventure is very spontaneous, or have a time limit, or likes to put surprises. The main draw of Vacian is flexibility and having useful spells, but you can't change it during the adventure, so it doesn't work if you get blindsided all the time.

[@chrizzlybear5565]

@@richarddarma1452 You should usually have a broad idea, especially/ to more detail if you do in character research beforehand. I feel like recall knowledge is supposed to help with this, let's hope the remaster has some helpful clarifications on the topic

[@VagabondTE]

Stupid question for the sake of algorithms: Would Cloudbreaker Alliance's Character generator allow me to play a 3 inch tall multicolor luminescent rodent humanoid automaton with extra durability?

[@Zedrinbot]

hey now she's almost 7 in-- i mean probably not

[@VagabondTE]

@@Zedrinbot 😅 oops was thinking of transformed.

[@Roshasis]

Honestly, I think the biggest complaint I have with 2e is the striking runes. They are 100% mandatory for martials, and if you somehow get separated from your weapon your damage just suddenly tanks to near uselessness

[@Zedrinbot]

I've grown to like Automatic Bonus Progression as a variant rule, limited to fundamental runes. Since runes like that are mandatory costs it feels like maybe they should be baked in; the only downside is that giving them as a reward ahead of schedule then isn't an option, but personally I'd rather have them on all weapons by default rather than get one early. It also allows casters who might not get a fundamental rune normally to actually feel like a minor threat when they DO decide to strike.

[@Roshasis]

@@Zedrinbot I've seen casters make some fun and devastating use of a rifle. And organ sight is a fun spell

[@SirGucinnio]

The homerule action you said is popular i haven't heard about in my 4 years of playing pf2e xDD But yeah there are few popular homerules, however i would recommend everyone to play 1 or 2 long campaigns RAW.

[@Coffeewings334]

When it comes to the encounter builder - I think a lot of GM assume that because they can use PL(party level)+3 and higher enemies, they have to. Especially if you come from a system like 5E where using a very high CR in relation to the party is essentially mandatory if you don't want the fight to be a joke. This isn't just something that affects GMs - we even see this in early APs like Extinction Curse and Age of Ashes that were extremely trigger-happy with using high level monsters. Meanwhile, Strength of Thousands and Blood Lords are way more mellow and stay away from those types of encounter during early levels. Blood Lords in particular does an excellent job pairing PL+1 and +2 enemies with hazards for extremely memorable encounters, similar to how 5e can use lair actions to good effect. I run for a relatively casual group, so I tend to avoid using PL+3 and PL+4 enemies even as bosses, at least during the early levels. The encounter system doesn't break as you level just as you say, but there is a bit of a slow slide in the players' favor over the course of the full twenty levels. A PL+4 enemy is not as deadly at level 20 as it is at level 1. The exception where I use high-level monsters like PL+3 and PL+4 are for optional encounters that are supposed to be very deadly, but also rewarding if the players actually manage to perservere. For those types of situations, high level monsters are extremely useful tools in my GM toolkit.

[@Zedrinbot]

yep, that's my immediate next point lol You have to use a careful hand and gradually ease off. Higher HP pools mean more room for random chance and mistakes, and higher levels mean more action options to overcome the +3/4 level difference.

[@danielvinette2274]

Great video and good criticisms!

[@dovahkiin_brasil]

0:32 oh you played Lancer? What's your opnion on it?

[@Zedrinbot]

love it, fantastic combat system, though it does have a lot of the action-chaining problem I mentioned that PF1 also suffers from. When you play with a power gamer (or power game yourself), expect their turns to take 15 minutes.

[@numimio]

I notice you in the comment sections of so many creators, lol.

[@aleksneedshelp]

You're really convincing me to try this system out, how beginner-dm friendly would you say this is? Never ran a campaign but have played through a number of ttrpgs and am currently writing a couple stories to put players through

[@Zedrinbot]

it can be a bit to learn. Running the monsters and encounters tends to be pretty easy for GMs, but the system itself does require a bit of learning (about as much as 5e requires, despite that people insist that 5e is 'rules light'.) There's tutorials on mechanically how to run and the theory behind running / how you should control your mobs, and tutorials on actions that exist. How It's Played has a lot of bite-sized tutorials on specific actions and activities in PF2 as well which are great for GMs and players alike.

[@chrizzlybear5565]

To reiterate a common community suggestion: Try the beginner box! It's built to teach the core mechanics one by one to both the GM and the players and can be run out of the box with zero prep (though reading through the adventure as GM will likely improve the experience). It also contains beginner friendly rules on creating your own characters and adventures, including stat blocks and pawns (i.e. cardboard minis) for more monsters than you need for the included adventure. If you're playing online, there is a module for foundry vtt that teaches you the basic use of the vtt as well!

[@aleksneedshelp]

@@chrizzlybear5565 @Zedrinbot thanks so much, will definitely give all this a look!

[@SupaAirunFIst]

Be whatever i enjoy i think every thing i have watched.

[@benjaminpatrickpatrickgarr9291]

One of my favourite things about archives of nethys is the pf1e statblock for "beggar" still has 203 gp for some reason and nobody ever bothered to fix that. Woe to the DM that just imported that statblock to their VTT of choice and suddenly found their players farming beggars for quick money.

[@Zedrinbot]

oh that wasn't just an AoN thing. It was published like that for some reason, and is likely a typo. One theory is that it was supposed to be 2-3 gold, but the person typing it hit 1 key too far to the right (using the top number bar on their keyboard.)

[@CmdrGamagosk]

Wonder if there will be a jump in DnD video games being made after bd3.

[@mirrovenelunge1778]

Glad to hear your thoughts on PF2, but I'm surprised that it beats out HDRPG system

[@lazurrluna]

Yay PF vid!

[@dinoextreme632]

Dude, that semicircle in the top left gave me a heart attack bc I thought my screen had cracked

[@mileslugo6430]

It's easier to adjust low level monsters so that they still scale with the party

[@dragonsswarm1987]

More PF2!

[@EsDestroyer]

om nom nom sounds of feeding the algae rhythm

[@VagabondTE]

Actually, I'm genuinely curious to hear you perspective on the Ogl stuff and ESPECIALLY how you feel about the Orc licence. Have you tried it? Is it good? Your much closer to early rps and pathfinder than everyone else I heard on the matter. I genuinely want to hear your perspective.

[@spinesauce2687]

Yay Pathfinder stuff!

[@codystell]

My Forever DM buddy is about to start a PF2 game

[@loganfrandrup6590]

Honestly, I want to try and play Pathfinder, as I love the amount of customizability, but at the same time I am still stuck with "wtf should even start with for a first character?" and this is coming from some one who has played 5e dnd for about 5/6 years and has made several characters and character ideas for fun. Like I want to play a Goblin, but I don't know what type of goblin, and I don't know what class to be going with if I want to do something as basic as a Barbarian or Fighter, but as is with RAW it might not be the best becasue of how crunchy the system is and my choices might suck as a result, it feels like a lot of pressure.

[@novasiri7809]

Pathfinder 2e might be crunchy, but that means I can chew on it more. I made the complete switch to P2E for my main campaign, Darkside of the Foundry(It's a campaign based in my Webcomics world), after the whole OGL bullshit, we moved utterly from 5th Edition D&D and did a whole campaign reboot. I'm 100% incorporating that houserule about movements + draw weapon, that's brilliant. I'm never looking back to D&D, long live Paizo~ (Also another bonus of Paizo, when their employees Unionized, they listened and said 'Hey, cool, let's talk!' Instead of WotC/Hasbro who immediately tries to Union Bust.. :I)

[@julzbehr6696]

Content boosts for the algorithm gods

[@Kilgore5]

How much effort do you put into voice acting characters you play?

[@TehParismio]

Heya Zed. Are you excited for the 2e remastered?

[@Zedrinbot]

very much so, I like a vast majority of the changes, and the ones I don't like I either understand for OGL reasons or can make peace with.

[@gystes_]

Zedrin uploaded? I guess the 1st of the month must have been a Tuesday while also being a full moon.

[@dwreanchinotan]

Comment for the algorithm god, laughs for the laugh track!

[@wahoobidy4912]

Just a random idea. Pokémon, but in pathfinder 2e. Maybe add some homebrew for weapons and typings. Maybe allowing players weapons to be types of attacks depending on the weapon, and some other things. Idk I just don't see alot of homebrew stuff for pathfinder and I think Pokémon easily works onto pathfinder greatly, more so than dnd

[@SteveMichael]

So I have GM'd and played almost every version of D&D and Pathfinder. I like Pathfinder 2e a lot. By that I like the mechanics of the system and I LOVE choices, and so does my friend group. I play with two variant rules that are allowed and baked into the core system. The free archetype rule and the rule that says you do not increase your proficiencies, saves and AC with your level. So the "bounded accuracy" things goes away. This is both good and bad but I love the idea that a team of 20 town guards could somewhat easily take down a higher level character and there is a chance that this low level character could get lucky and hit a higher level character. Now this does come with issues, in that the reverse can happen. The party fighting ONE BBEG can get lucky as well. Now what do I dislike about Pathfinder 2e. The push of identity politics and their current social views into a game. Their new lore, and Gods is just horrible. I am sorry but if a game tells me to use someone's pronouns then that is just waisted space in a book. If they want to push a bunch of non binary Gods or Alphabet people Gods, then that is a book I can pass on. Speaking of Gods, it is clear that they hate strong straight white men. I will just leave it at that. So on that note, Pathfinder 2 with all the options for races has some problems that need to have some home rules, which means ignoring or rewriting their lore and built in modules.

[@Zedrinbot]

what

[@alejandroguerra7561]

gotta love pf2e

[@LightPink]

I just love Mark Seifter

[@VoicesOfChaos]

I think strict adherence to the action system is the biggest newbie GM mistake. People want to play the rules right and not homebrew a new system they don't understand yet. The classic example is a character with 25 speed, moves 10 feet, opens a door and wants to keep moving. Rules as written you might think this takes 3 actions which is fustrating. Because you move 10 feet and then need to end that action, losing your 15 unused speed because you need to start a new action to interact with the door to open it and then as a 3rd action you stride again. But there are 2 alternatives to this! 1st: A 2-action activity that is a stride with an open door interaction in the middle. 2nd: Opening the door here isn't a full interact action and instead just difficult terrain that costs the moving character 5 feet of movement. It is up to the GM to decide what makes the most sense for how hard it is to open the door and such. But if the door isn't jammed or locked then it probably shouldn't 3 entire actions to do all that.

[@Zedrinbot]

The GMG also calls out combining actions as well, especially when it comes to movement. The specific example they give is stride partway, leap, and finish your stride as two actions, etc. Or stride, climb, finish the stride.

[@trikovi1628]

Oh hey it's the guy I keep seeing in the comments of pf2e videos

[@1candondor]

Wow it's been so long that KZbin forgot to notify me

[@polasamierwahsh421]

good points

[@ObliviousNaga]

Please note this is just based on what I've seen. Never played the system before. I like how spells work with actions spent. While most are two actions, you can spend more actions to increase the effect of the spell. That just gives more depth to a spell. One thing I don't like is skills in pathfinder. The scaling is nuts where you can roll a 2 and still pass a check. Now that's probably just me not understanding how to the system is supposed to be managed but if you got a handful of these super skills, how does the rest keep up. Again this is just an outsiders perspective. Another complaint although minor is the movement in the game. It feels like a waste of actions to move 5ft for what ever reason and that's it. Done. Even if you have 15-20 more movement, that just gets wasted.

[@VoidplayLP]

Bit late but here's some considerations: Skills, as long as theyre trained, will level with you. This makes it so that if you specialize In something, you actually feel it. You don't need to be Master either, as long as you're trained. Consider this is true for enemies as well, if they have 25 movement speed and you have 30, suddenly they need to spend 2 actions to get to you, you can use that to your advantage.

[@ObliviousNaga]

@VoidplayLP my issue with the movement is for short distance, not long distance. Let's say you're 5ft from an unlocked door, so you move up to it, open it and then move into the room opposite the door. That takes three actions. Why can't I just open the door while moving. Sure it can cost a bit more movement to do so but it's not impeding me. It just feels nonsensical at that point and a waste of a turn As for the skills, it comes off as if not having that player could affect the game. Or it could just be a case of number overload that is throwing me off

[@VoidplayLP]

@@ObliviousNaga most of the action economy issues get solved if you remember tha itll also take the enemy 3 actions to do that, and now they cant attack. So you could decide instead to wait at the door for an enemy to come through. otherwise DMs are encouraged to rule that things like this might only take 2 actions (the one you gave is the exact example the book uses for this), though ive never seen that done i will admit. as for this yes it will mean some characters dont get to do much in certain situations, but i personally prefer this as it means specialising in something actually matters. besides most characters get about 8 skills at the games start, so thats still half of them youre trained in and not useless at.

[@ObliviousNaga]

@@VoidplayLP ah ok

[@sebastiangyldendal8341]

me! me! me! i want another pathfinder 2e video!

[@TheSteve_1992]

I began Pnp in 2015 with Dnd 5. Back then I was enamored with the system, the classes, the spells etc., introduced other friends into it and we played a lot.... Then Pf 2 releases and one of my friends wanted to make a campaign with it and......I don't know, after 1 years eith parallel Dnd 5 and Pf 2 campaigns, I kinda lost all interest in Dnd. Compared to Pathfinder, Dnd appeared clunky, almost unfinished, baby's first Pnp. Long story short, I changed my Dnd 5 campaign into a Pf2 one

[@morganpetros9635]

I actually have *A LOT* of trouble even navigating the Archives of Nethys. It doesn't seem to have any kind of logical table of contents or index ... at least not on my phone. So the "All The Rules Are Free" thing everyone raves about just doesn't work for me.

[@severussnape2917]

Interesting

[@mizublackriver7021]

What's your opinion on 2.5?