Odon-Pt.5: The Qur'an itself points to a previous Qur'an!

[@yucafries7681]

It’s a book about a book containing passages from another book that was edited to make it seem self referential. Way to clarify guys! The signs could not be clearer!!! (:

[@OdonLafontaine]

At least you got it And yes, it looks complex but once you've gotten it, you'll see how much clearer the quranic text can be

[@blacklisted4885]

aye, clear as mud

[@davidzack8735]

For the most obvious and simple explanation of the origins of the Quran, go to the Useful Charts channel. It demonstrates clearly that the stories in the Quran are summaries by an illiterate person of summaries told to him orally. That is how the silly mistakes are made, like Moses being found by the wife of Pharaoh instead of the daughter of Pharaoh as per the original Biblical version. It's how the Legend of Alexander and the 'fetid ocean' at the edge of the world becomes Dhul Qarnayn and 'the murky pool'. 😁

[@Speakers154]

This video is really the key to understanding the quran. Once you get it, you will be inoculated against the SIN. Great job as always, Odon and Jay!

[@NotLikeWhatYouThink]

🤣thats why we says dr google and dr youtube..if muslim says they learn from youtube or google.. smack the head first.If learn al quran from apologist christian thats weird and stupid.

[@OdonLafontaine]

And you can always get more jabs...

[@Speakers154]

@@OdonLafontaine Between you and Thomas, I definitely have got the booster jab by now. LOL

[@Speakers154]

@@OdonLafontaine I have a fragment of a syriac lectionary found in China, dated to the 10th century, shared in a post, which would give a good idea of what these lectionaries would have looked like in approximate terms.

[@villainousssb533]

Absolutely agree Mel. The last few episodes were epic.

[@oprophetisfake9482]

This is fascinating information about the editing of the Qur'an and now looking at the proto Aramaic Qur'ans.

[@Logia1978]

Try some real scholarship... This channel is an absolute insult to western scholarship from biased apologist uneducated bigots....

[@baratibza7595]

Wow! After learning a bit of the Quran I came to this exact conclusion, The book that is mentioned in the current Quran is not the actual book called the Quran. What Muslims have is just a collection sermons by a preacher. Thanks for confirming my thoughts

[@simonhengle8316]

Explosive stuff Odon, thank you for your research and Dr. Jay Smith for this fabulous platform

[@yakovmatityahu]

This is one of the most informative video i have ever seen about the real Quran that existed before Islamic SIN Quran...Thanks Jay and Odon.

[@pvdguitars2951]

Amazing, brother Odon. It would be interesting to have a holistic overview the Islamic Quran into 4 sections or so: 1. The verses that talk about these sources, teachings (Odon’s work) 2. The verses that confirm the authority of the Torah and Gospels 3. The dark passages that originate from Syro-Aramaic (Thomas’s videos) 4. Later introductions, insertions (Abbasid era)

[@NotLikeWhatYouThink]

Ohh as i know torah written 1000 years after moses passed away..bible??worst..of course verse in al quran also mention(bible and torah) its corrupted and written changed after these prophet not there anymore.Its confirm that Allah indeed send revelation to prophet..if Allah prophet eg jesus still alive or moses of course they will never allowed corruption..so that verse refer to revelation reveal and preserved while prophet alive.Al quran intentionally preserved even after prophet(muhamad) passed away it will be eternally intact till end of the world..plus impossible to manipulated..try if you want.

[@blessingpereye1258]

@@NotLikeWhatYouThink tales by moonlight

[@bestKaffir.underTheSon]

@@NotLikeWhatYouThink The Torah was written by Moses and Aaron.

[@emmanuelmasih2296]

@@NotLikeWhatYouThink Bewitched follower of the Bewitched prophet

[@theelder5505]

@@NotLikeWhatYouThink We don't need to try and corrupt an already corrupt quran. An instruction, by Ibn Abbas::( If parts of the quran is lost, then finish it with poetry.) Source:( Fath Al Bari, volume 13,page 437.) Grade.Hassan (good).

[@orunabho]

A Nobel Prize to Odon...possibly a peace prize :-) for rescuing 1.8 billion people from darkness, from violence.

[@fantasia55]

shared by several others

[@eschaton8758]

not quite yet. 13 thousand souls for now. this is something that must be cultivated and not considered foregone

[@mbardfast6658]

God bless you Odon. There is now more hope for peace, if people have ears to hear.

[@RJ-fg8kw]

The idea of teachers giving instructions through a lectionary to the preachers is a brilliant insight. Odon gives us all the ability to look at this material through a new lens. Magnifique!

[@OdonLafontaine]

Actually, teachers giving instructions to preachers in order for the latter to present a new Arabic lectionary to an Arab audience. The Quran is mostly made of notes written by the preachers in regard to this preachings: preparation notes for the preachings, reporting notes of the preachings, instruction notes for the preaching.

[@justaminute3111]

I was thinking that it sounds like parts are a bit like those books of sermons that famous preachers used to put together and sell to less gifted clerics.

[@divyachacko3449]

As usual v informative . Keep going. Doing a fantastic job

[@urbandsouza7279]

Hi odon nice one .for me you are the first person to give a different perspective

[@gilbertjones9157]

One aspect of this information that needs to have context is it's application to the historical event of the capture of Jerusalem by the Arab Jews and the Jews of Ctesiphon coalition during the 7th Century, who also picked up Aramaic Anti-Trinitarians adherents as part of their coalition, all of them having access to this Arabic Lectionary. If there is such a document, not only will there be fossilized particles in the Islamic Quran but particles of it in the palimpsests currently available. Just a 'fun fact' to consider, those 'student practice passages' in those palimpsest passages maybe copies of the Arabic Lectionary either from their memory or actual copies of the Lectionary. Or the Arabic Lectionary is the Uthmanic Quran that no one has been able to find. This would give a more concrete explanation to why there was a 'great book burning' of the other qurans.

[@ngashmir]

Odon's perspective really solves the mystery of the Quran best and answers many questions. For example, when I read the Quran there was the plural WE. I always assumed that it was God who was speaking & I wondered why a God who has no associations would speak in the plural. Now from Odon's perspective this makes more sense to be referring to a council which was responsible for translating the already existing readings/Quran from another language(Aramaic) into Arabic. This fits in well also with what has been established by the SIN SIFTERS(Council 😁) about the political situation during the time of the formation of the Arabic Quran. Also, the push back from some of the Arabic Quran's audience who were familiar with the Aramaic Quran may suggest that there was a deliberate attempt to distort what the original said to fit it to the political goals of the ruling council/elit/class. Good stuff here guys. Thank you so much. The truth will set people free.

[@davidzack8735]

The royal 'we" used by kings and gods is different from the plural 'we' and always has been.

[@fantasia55]

@@davidzack8735 The Royal We was invented Popes, and later used by Kings. It has nothing to do with Islam.

[@mattaikay925]

Acknowledge that I am not an expert here - you both are, Odon & Jay - I rely on you to help me enhance my understanding of the false prophet and his book. May the Lord richly bless you.

[@aemiliadelroba4022]

The Distinction here is “ Quran has already been made “ v “ Quran has always been in existence “ …

[@waza987]

I noticed Odon stoped himself saying “Proposing to them ….” Yes it is true in English if you stop at that point the implication is they are proposing marriage, but it is also perfectly acceptable English to continue with details of a proposal that is not related to marriage.

[@funkfunky6554]

Yes brothers 👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿wow! For the first time in a long time things are starting to make sense! There is nothing as sweet as the truth 😁 Great job brothers, may God keep you and your family's safe!

[@aemiliadelroba4022]

The style of Quran is very unique for Arabs to create such a master scripture …. Still questions remains unanswered.

[@assoussoudsamir]

Olaf is doing a great job. Que le Seigneur te bénisse mon frère. You too, brother Jay. God bless your and your ministry.

[@christopherhussain9121]

Thank you Odon and Jay. Q25:6 ..."dictated to him morning and evening" may also be a reference to morning and evening prayer (cf. Ex 29:39, Ps 141:2). There is a Jewish tradition of prayer and reading from Torah and lectionaries during the morning and evening. This verse may indeed be referring to that.

[@ericthegreat7805]

Yes this is what I thought to. But it is not just Jewish. This is found throughout all Christian sects, to have morning and evening prayer. But Eastern Christians tend to be more strict about their daily liturgy of the hours than those of us in the West.

[@CarolineGold]

First in .....😊 Always looking forward to your videos! You do a great job!

[@sgt.grinch3299]

Great job. You climbed all the way to the summit of the mole hill. You earned the Gold Medal for the day

[@CarolineGold]

19:50 Oh dear! Thank God for translations,, and Odon, and Jay 😂😂.

[@bobfisher1909]

You know whats sad even though all the facts and evidence presented which speaks truth and makes perfect sense, is they will deny it because your not a scholar, you and all the team are doing a ace job keep up great work!! GBU.

[@nashnderitu]

Great insight. My mind is already racing to connect with the years that Paul spent in Arabia. Paul was a master scholar if one ever existed at time. These masters of preachers mentioned in these passages sound like alumni of that Pauline Theology School! Might also explain why conventional Islam has such a huge bone to pick with Paul? Just conjecture for now, but I'm excited about the unfolding scenario. Great job old boys!

[@gilbertjones9157]

Thinking about the multiple ways that the Aramaic Qurans were used, very similar to the Anglican Book of Common Prayer is used as it has parts that are for liturgy for all the different 'services' from Baptism to Communion to Ordination from a Bishop to a Deacon, to marriage and death; and in additional prayers that can be read during a Prayer Service or Private Prayers and has a Family Prayer Service. There is also a daily Bible reading section if followed would have an individual or family read through the Scriptures beginning to end in one year. It would seem that the concept of a 'book' containing all that an individual would need except the Bible would be contained in it. Not have been a member of an Orthodox or Lutheran Churches it would be interesting to compare all the 'Catholic' branches to see their prayer books compared and then if possible the Nestorian and other Mideastern groups 'prayer books' follow the same pattern.

[@ericthegreat7805]

Yes exactly.

[@ericthegreat7805]

They do follow similar patterns.

[@ekondigg6751]

17:22 Q15,1 "Alif, Lam, Ra. These are the verses of the book [kitab] and a clear quran" In Odon's book Le Grand Secret de l'Islam we can see on P78 these letters cited in a table, but also further down in the table on P79 Alif, Lam, Mim, where there is an explanation: "Les lettres « A », « L », « M » en hébreu sont l’abréviation de « Dieu des Délivrances », une ouverture traditionnelle de la part des religieux Juifs et judéonazaréens pour leurs prières et prédications." The letter "A", "L", "M" in Hebrew are the abbreviation of "God of deliverances", a traditional opening by religious Jews and Judeo-Nazarenes of their prayers and preaching (my translation). I think viewers would likely be interested if Odon has any further information on these letters, that are normally considered to be unkown.

[@managersamuel]

Odon is so surprised why we can't see it, it's written so clearly

[@dqschannel]

Odin you are knocking it out of the ballpark.

[@paul-assiddiq-001]

Great work Odon 👍✨

[@TAlexander]

Great stuff by Odon. I think your approach is spot on. The only minor difference in opinion between us is that I wouldn’t describe these teachers and preachers as Jews. I think we’re looking at anti-Trinitarian “nasraye”, i.e. Aramaic speaking Christians. Of course theologically, they’d be very close to messianic Jews like the Ebionites, but as I have argued in my videos, I think we can draw a line from these people to Aphrahat the Persian Sage and to Paul of Samosata.

[@two_tier_gary_rumain]

Nestorians?

[@yakovmatityahu]

Its so good and satisfying to see that their is a consensus now between you people...this will bring validity to the theory...Great 👍

[@TAlexander]

@@two_tier_gary_rumain No, not Nestorians, although going back to a common ancestor if you will.

[@two_tier_gary_rumain]

@@TAlexander OK.

[@davidzack8735]

@@two_tier_gary_rumain The Nestorians, from Nestorius, 5th century Bishop of Constantinople, believed that Christ had 'two distinct natures , divine and human' so not the same as the Ebionites and Islam who say Jesus was purely mortal.

[@Bei-Abedan]

We were talking about this fact in the liveshow on Edis TV yesterday.

[@communionvision5914]

Don’t worry all good

[@terminateurextra-ordinaire3925]

Great stuff,Odon! Thanks.

[@leedza]

This makes me want to buy a Quran and read it with a literary key from Sheikh Odon.

[@eswn1816]

After this scholarship, one thing is clear, the SIN is intellectually indefensible. 🙏

[@abdulyaqin3450]

Luar biasa pak Oddon, terimakasih atas penjelasan tentang Qur'an, sungguh sudut pandang yang baru dan masuk diakal. Hormat saya dari Indonesia.

[@charleskumaran6050]

Simple and impressive. Good un.

[@Repent4JesusChrist]

Dr.Jay and Dr.Odon 👏👌👍

[@jerryallright77]

This is really eye opening experience! Odon teach us think outside the Box.! Thank you

[@regobarnabas2159]

Thank you Odon for your efforts to clearly depict and show us this evidence, very well put together. Amazing how clear it is in their own book about the Arabic book and the evidence of Kitab or Bible. A lot of detail and explained well by Odon, Arabs copied everything , growing up as a Christian in a Muslim country and sometimes threatened to believe their book or else .... was so wishing for the truth to come all along and patience is truly real as at this point in time i have seen and heard the truth speak up so many times by Strong Christians and I believe that Christianity is the way and the truth. My question to you guys is why have we Christians gotten so weak when it comes to defense of our faith in Christ and his teachings , I have seen numerous Christians just stay silent when muslims speak ill or criticize us for something which is not even important such as Circumcision or eating pork which some Christians as myself don't eat anyways. The other thought i had was i was always told i was unclean by fellow muslims growing up, they even gave me water in a disposable cup as they thought i was unclean. Really sad when they came to our home , we gave them to eat or drink in the best cup or plate. The other questions I had is how to convince Muslims that they are permitted to sin by their own text otherwise they will be punished by their Allah. The relation of it to the attribute Al Sathir ( the concealer). thanks again.

[@urbandsouza7279]

Nice brother in christ.your life and experience itself is reflected true christianity . What you face in your life itself is strong evidence of a true faith. God makes allthings beautiful in his own time be patient

[@scienceandreligionden5903]

Have you ever heard of a Christian polemic called “Christian Prince”? If not, spend some time listening to his debate ‘call in show’, for want of a better word. He has an open phone line and any Muslim can call him to defend Islam. He attacks with such skill in Arabic and knowledge of the Quran that it is devastating to the Muslim caller. If you watch a few hours of his shows you will pick up a lot of ways to show Muslims the problems with their own text.

[@FRED-gx2qk]

Amazing Depth much appreciated .

[@declanooi9024]

SIN will SINK soon eith this incredible work of analysis by Odon, more to come

[@leedza]

The approach of looking at the Qur'an for what it is, is just pure genius. The SIN becomes the kuffar covering what the true meaning of the Qur'an.

[@leedza]

I always wondered why Allah was very preachy and spoke in plural. This explanation makes it more clear. One group of church leaders to another.

[@Pappu_9065]

Great 👍 Odon good job to expose the false claim made by Muslims about Koran

[@mosmas66]

What I most like about Jay is that he never gives up. Every day he comes with a new discovery and a new story: 26 Qur'ans, 930000 variations, Qur'an in Aramaic, Qur'an was all about Jesus.... How many Muslims have you convert to your pagan Christianity, Jay? How many Muslims have taken your baby Jesus as their lord and saviour, jay?

[@fantasia55]

not enough

[@allo5170]

Those that accept God's love to them

[@ross3818]

This exposition of Odon's is more incomprehensible than usual.

[@OdonLafontaine]

What can I do to make it clearer?

[@communionvision5914]

Beautiful….Alonzo Harris still sleeping lol

[@MrDrbld]

Let sleeping dogs lie

[@MrDrbld]

He thinks he has a dog in this fight...but he's barking up the wrong tree

[@gilbertjones9157]

@@MrDrbld Yup a blind one at that.

[@miguelsureda9762]

He is still looking for Mecca in the Hejaz !

[@MrDrbld]

@@miguelsureda9762 dogged dedication

[@rajeshdutt5251]

Superb. Great 👍

[@michaelnwachukwu]

Odon has broken the jinx. Its now very clear when the Qur'an speaks about previous stuffs what was meant.

[@DG-sn2js]

As Flip Wilson once remarked: “Is that a fact? It’s in the book!”

[@jamalkhan3708]

Very informative 👍 God bless.

[@RJ-fg8kw]

Q41:44 is a verse that contradicts the itself as the Quran if full of foreign words including words like: Quran, Surah, Aya! The verse suggests that a non-Arabic scripture would raise all kinds of questions because the scripture was not explained in detail in Arabic and might be a foreign recitation. Well, with almost 400 foreign words in the Quran, Muslims should be raising the alarm.

[@preapple]

With Odons research. Jay will have to revise his previous presentations. Lot of new perspectives here!! 👍🙏

[@J1WE]

The the question was who had the monopoly on the pig industry back then? What empire was the enemy? Or Is there stories of people getting sick from pigs? Or just hoov shape? What exactly is the history on the pig thing?

[@johnzuma4688]

What Odon states becomes very clear when one looks at the chronological sequence of when the various Surahs are supposed to have been recited by Mohammed. Surah 73 is one of the first Surah being recited and yet Surah 73:20 states that one should recite what is easy of "the Quran" to recite. How can one have a choice of what to recite when Mohammed has not yet recited it?

[@OdonLafontaine]

The traditional chronology of the Quran (Meccan verses & suras, Medinan verses & suras) is not historical. It has a religious exegetical purpose: to give an Islamic meaning to the Quran and the asbab an nuzul (the "circumstances of the revelation"), to invent the figure of "the Prophet" and give it the most details

[@johnzuma4688]

@@OdonLafontaine Thank you for that explanation. I assume though that most Muslims believe that the chronological tradition is as accurate as all the other traditions about Mohammed and his Quran. So the Chronological tradition in effect proves the Quran wrong as well.

[@OdonLafontaine]

@@johnzuma4688 Textual criticism has proven that the sira is exegetical and not historical (Henri Lammens proved it more thant a hundred years ago) There is also a mathematical analysis of the Quran by Jean-Jacques Walter than proved it.

[@aemiliadelroba4022]

I see your point whoever , It is Written in Quran too that “ the Original Quran is kept in heaven “ , so yes Quran did exist before time it was “ proclaimed “ ,

[@-BigIi-]

O prophet, *say:* "I am only a false prophet"; admit willingly or unwillingly 🤣😅

[@gnosticquran]

Fascinating. Thomas and Odon are truly amazing in their approach. But i would suggest that mhmd in Quran is Mani himself. It would make perfect sense since he would be preaching his new gospel to the jewish community where he was born. Maybe original Mani writings were in syriac, and the are several scholars who defends that position. And what is happening is the jews basically saying to him "get the hell out of here boy its not in the hebrew".

[@Peter-xf9jy]

suddenly rabb(i) sgl. becomes teachers in plural and the preacher (3alay-ka sgl.!) becomes preachers too.

[@sagarjackie7366]

Odon, from what I understand, the reason for the creation of the Arabic Qur'an is that there was no Arabic translation of the Bible until after the 7th century. Till the Arabic Bible came along, there was only the Aramaic Bible which the Arabs could not understand. Even the prayers were in Aramaic, therefore to help the Arab audience, the teachers must have made notes which were used by pastors using which the Arabs could recite what was in the Bible. We had a similar issue in the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church in Kerala where all the prayers were in Syriac, a dialect of Aramaic, until a few priests decided to translate the prayers into the local language Malayalam. The penalty for doing this, these priests were expelled by the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church and they then went ahead and created a new church called the Malankara Syrian Mar Thoma church. The Qur'an must have been created in what would today be called a Seminary where priests are trained, in how to say the prayers, when to say what and who should say it, whether the priests or the congregation. Odon, I suggest you visit a Malankara Syrian Orthodox/Jacobite Church in France and attend a service. You'll notice that a good portion of the service is in Syriac while a part is in Malayalam. Mel in Ireland could also get in touch with the priests of the Syrian Orthodox Church there to translate Aramaic texts.

[@OdonLafontaine]

Good point ! We don't really know wether there was no Arabic translation of the Bible until after the 7th century. We have no ancient manuscripts (yet we have Arabic biblical manuscripts from the 8th & 9th cent.) But we know for sure that the Christian Arabs from the 7th cent. (and before) had been taught about the Bible. So there must have been Arabic translations of the Bible, at least of the Gospels and of the main passages of the Torah/Prophets (for example: the analysis of the Quran tells that the audience of the preachers already knew Moses or Abraham's stories). The analogy between Arabs and Indians seem very relevant. Yet one must not ignore the close proximity between Arabic and Aramaic, and also the close proximity between Arabs (who were mostly Christian Arabs) and Aramaic speaking people in the Middle East (who were also mostly Christians)

[@leedza]

To put it simple. The epistles follow the same logic as the quran. These are teachings directed to a specific audience later turned into a collection and used as the basis of sermonaries. The later church fathers then continued the traditions by preserving the epistles and they overlaying their own commentaries in letters addressed to the 2nd century church.

[@feelsick9800]

interesting speculation, we require more like this to reconstruct how and when the quran was revealed, it is like arranging puzzle, some speculations may perhaps avoided, some will survive. Time will tell.

[@OdonLafontaine]

Well, just check my other videos with Jay, or with Mel.

[@RandomMoves923]

brilliant work

[@temporaryaccount5307]

Lol where’s all the loud mouth and proud mzms now? Not seeing em in this comment section are we!

[@urbandsouza7279]

Odon just inhaled smoke and smokeout quite simple. Billions of hours spent on memorising what a waste . Bravo odon.million thanks

[@Dorfapoligetik]

game over... no way they can get away with that.

[@antonkarto4356]

- Arabic Translation Quran, - Umayad Text Quran, - Islamic Quran. Which of the three books is the best and which is the worst?

[@sgt.grinch3299]

They are all distortions of history and teach evil. There is zero love and redemption in any quran.

[@Aql_]

@@sgt.grinch3299 liar 🤥

[@NotLikeWhatYouThink]

What is that..

[@thomasmccarthy9758]

Its somebody's school homework badly copied out by someone else who didn't bother studying before going to school. T

[@gilbertjones9157]

That bring up the idea of someone selling the answers to the test out on the school yard. Pisss, I got the answers all in here, you can have it for two goats and a camel, no elephants or pigs please, you can substitute sheep for goats.

[@MrDrbld]

Is it possible to produce a graphic timeline rather like a delta to demonstrate this visually?

[@OdonLafontaine]

See the next video! I even made a comic strip

[@MrDrbld]

@@OdonLafontaine A la Asterix?? :)

[@troydavis1]

Great stuff ! To make it more powerful you should make a video which uses a plausible fiction how this happened with cartoon figures, and using all those quoran quotes, a bit like Darkmatter does when he denounces Christianity. But use his technique to explain the true origins of Islam. Odon is great but this academic style will not get the millions of views we need !

[@aaabrams1889]

Your comment shows how childish and weak your mind is...CARTOON FIGURS...HA HA HA..is that the way to attract a million views - are all Xtians so loony tune???

[@OdonLafontaine]

This is exactly what the next video will be about

[@aaabrams1889]

@@OdonLafontaine HA HA HA...for kids?

[@dqschannel]

@@aaabrams1889 well we are dealing with kid mentality here, AKA Muslims.

[@aaabrams1889]

@@dqschannel Muslims are laughing at your lies and childish mind-set....HA HA HA

[@harryfontesugiarto]

Has anyone tried to decipher the first layer of the Sana'a manuscript? One must think that the "lectionary" Odon has said in this video may have been written in the first layer of the Sana'a manuscript

[@tomdowney9336]

Isn't that how it always goes, one thing leads to another. But our Bible is does not change because the Hebrew language is not spoken any more, the same with kona Greek it is no longer spoken. As you can see what Odon is saying that it evolved from people talking to people.

[@deltadom33]

That was an amazing lecture , does it have any link to the Aramaic targums and I like how you link master to rabbi

[@OdonLafontaine]

Targums or targumim are Aramaic translations of the Hebrew scriptures, with added commentaries. They might have been included in the Aramaic lectionaries.

[@alkhan6704]

It was a gospel just like others ,but over the Arabic period it has add ons to include a Muhammad who you follow,then other add ons to confirm this add on were borned and are still being borned and have distanced itself from the original teachings of the Quran,

[@urbandsouza7279]

True

[@jcmrob3723]

You should look at the book called( Kanza rubba ) Were most of the verses are Stolen from, as well.

[@outtamawaychick]

“We” in the Quran has to be the Creator because in the Quran you read over and over again statements such as “We created the heavens and the earth...” don’t think any preacher or teacher can claim this. This is a major flaw in odons theory.

[@Jimmy_English]

The royal ‘We’ always suggests a group, not a singular being.

[@alkhan6704]

It’s an add on ,that it is contradictory to the SIN ,so it mocks the trinity,yet it claims to be a gang.plenty of verses in the pro 1924 ,that are not referring to the previous scriptures.what we would like is the manuscripts that are known of ,studied properly in a fresh light of knowledge.

[@theelder5505]

The phrase that "We"( has to be the creator) confirms uncertainty, and that the quran fails it's own claim that it is a clear book. What is clear, is that the quran is NOT clear!

[@davidzack8735]

@@Jimmy_English Kings and gods have always used the royal we. Quite different from the plural we. The royal we can and always has referred to a single person.

[@davidzack8735]

@@theelder5505 The Qur'an claims to be the words of the god Allah who self-identifies as the God of the Old Testament in Sura 2. That is why He uses the royal We.

[@gilbertjones9157]

So it would seem that we (the general public) will Not be surprised that, possibly from the palimpsest of the Sa'an mustafs might or will contain the foundations of the Arabic Lectionary Or a progression of development from the Arabic Lectionary into the Islamic Quran. This concept could be applied to all palimpsests found in folios of the Islamic Qurans. Then there is Brubacher's work looking at all the 'corrections' made to the mustafs might look like the old fashioned Data Punch Cards with their hole alignments, which may present more of the Arabic Lectionary. Yes, Alanzo this is speculation, but based on, on going active research from western scholars, because no Islamic scholar has the fortitude to cross those 'red lines' as they know that the standard narrative has HOLES. Big gapping Holes that shift the narrative. Mac Truck size holes that the palimpsest texts might just fill in those pesky holes. This looks to be an endeavor that would yield a Doctorate and open a new field of research.

[@julietabraham476]

Well said.

[@khany6345]

We should never forget that this all happened 1400 years ago. Even with today’s digital technology and vast knowledge available on the social medias ; people are still as dumb about so many things , just like the people of 1400 years ago when r even 2000 years ago. This is why religion is still the most powerful and controlling force in running people’s day to day lives.

[@BERESHIDA2008]

Correct that's why Lord was tired of religious people . That's why he said Give to ceaser what's from ceaser Give to God what's belongs to him . Love your neighbors as yourself.

[@migueliteux5061]

Are those the same Nasoreans that Epiphanius writes of in the Panarion?

[@OdonLafontaine]

We shall never know for sure, but it is a most probable hypothesis

[@johnzuma4688]

From a chronologcial perspective the Surahs 10, 12, 15 and 27 all came from a time before Mohammed moved to Medina (618-620 AD). At stage not even half the Quran we have today had been recited by Mohammed, so the reference here has to be for another Quran.

[@OdonLafontaine]

The traditionnal chronology of the Quran (Meccan verses & suras, Medinan verses & suras) is not historical. It cannot be trusted

[@leedza]

That's if a literal Mohammad existed. Put it into perspective, Jesus is mentioned over 200 times while Muhammad is only mentioned 4/5 times. So it could be that the reference to Muhammad is later edited to support the SIN and the "prophet" who this revelation is supposed to be revealed to.

[@pankaja7974]

i have not read any english book that says that the book (about itself) is in english !!

[@aaabrams1889]

QURAN 12:2 Indeed, We have sent it down as an Arabic Qur'an that you might understand. Previous revelations were sent to in the languages the prophets.

[@Dorfapoligetik]

the funn fact it's here for our eyes...

[@honeysweety3438]

Dr. Jay please make a presentation about proto Al Fatihah manuscript that taken from early christian ortodox books prayer writen in 4th century as Indonesian muslim Ustadz Solihin vs Husein debate on Jan 22, 2022. Im sure it will makes a big damage to standard islamic narrative.. thanks

[@wildernessofzinn17]

This is good stuff fellas. But may I ask something?. I am wondering about the famous verses in chapter 9. 9:5, 9:29 and so on. Where do they come in?. What is the true source of those verses and why were they so hostile toward Jews and Christians?. Where did this jizyah business _really_ come from?.

[@aemiliadelroba4022]

No it does not mean from “ a previous book “ but rather according to Quran “ the source “, “ mother of all books “, So … it may ref to a “ heavenly book “ , “ heavenly scripture”, that exists or has existed forever not made by men necessarily…..but has been kept in safe heavenly dimension ! I don’t know 🤷🏿‍♀️, but that too maybe true ,

[@Mikebad54]

When you guys show a verses of the Quran in English, can you please show next to it the Arabic verses as well. This will help people in doubt, so it won’t be lost in translation. Thank you and keep up the good work.

[@Looi-Laneo4]

Exactly. Eg he quotes 41:21 and begins with do not listen to the quora... he intentionally omits the first words which reads " The unbelievers say Do not listen to the Quoran but talk at random in the midst of its reading. What he is quoting is completely different from what is written in the Quoran. You have found some of us woke. You will not feed us with your NONSENSE

[@pmaragoudakis]

Why Odon believes the scriptures of the "other peoples" refers to rabbinic Jews? In the area there must have been also Nestorians, Monophysites and preachers from the formal church all competing with each other

[@Peter-xf9jy]

translating sent down (anzalna) with taught (3allamna) is a little bug in this nice hypothesis.

[@Peter-xf9jy]

also if in 10.94 are the "teacher" talking, why dont they say : Ask us ?! hhh

[@OdonLafontaine]

@@Peter-xf9jy Depends on who is sending down the instructions and the teaching. Anyhow, even in the case of the relationship between a teacher and his student, it is also about knowledge being sent down from the one who knows to the one who learns. Besides, when the one who knows is himself persuaded that his knowledge is divine (because it comes from the sacred scriptures), he can give the impression to his student that his teaching is a revelation.

[@roukayajannah5111]

That's right anzalna not taught

[@Peter-xf9jy]

@@roukayajannah5111 there are hints to syriac, even genuine syriac/aramaic words, but if one claims whole phrases, the reference should be given and the evidence should be sound and not seem to be "forced" conjecture. If rabb refers to his master/teacher, it can only be one, ie. Waraqa (if that guy existed), or Salman al-Farsi. who both provided him with scripture (althou ofc the Quran denies that, or tries to, kind of awkwardly). Also the preacher (warner nadhir) is always in singular.

[@P.H.888]

@@roukayajannah5111 full of contradictions and abrogations 🧐 Hardly divine Why would Mo get revelations from al lah so he alone could benefit sexually!? Totally bizarre definitely Not of The True Father but a devil.

[@tarnos4153]

Excellent presentation and summary. Just wondering whether Thomas’ 1.4 can shed the light on whether the argument between the Arab translators had to do with the Meccan version.

[@Joelbop]

@24:50 - fully agree

[@earlscottchambers4280]

Are any of the mentioned Sura’s on the available 7th century surviving Quran scripts/pieces/etc?

[@thegreatsecretofislam]

Some, yes.

[@alsowithingodsreasoning1810]

Doesn't it say: Surah Fussilat, Verse 26: وَقَالَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لَا تَسْمَعُوا لِهَٰذَا الْقُرْآنِ وَالْغَوْا فِيهِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَغْلِبُونَ 👉And those who disbelieve say:👈 "Listen not to this Quran, and make noise in the midst of its (recitation) that you may overcome." (English - Mohsin Khan)

[@zoeashes6347]

Great stuff from Odon. The SIN can no longer stand ... and must be abandoned ... as even the internal evidence ... do not support it but rather points to something else that debunks it. Look forward to more great stuff. Only one book stands despite the virulent attacks throughout the centuries ... and that is the Bible consisting of the Old Testament of 39 books and the New Testament of 27 books. How marvelous is it that the Bible begins sublimely with God and ends, concludes, consummates with the Lord Jesus Christ. Jeremiah 23:29 : "Is not My word thus - like fire, declares Jehovah, and like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces?

[@ericthegreat7805]

The Tablets preserved in Heaven is a motif that appears in Jewish and Jewish Christian apocryphal traditions regarding the Law/Torah given to Moses. We may interpret "we" sending down a tradition (Tanzil) as an analog to the Apostolic tradition passed down by Jesus to His apostles. In other words, sent down from the Apostles to the Believers. Even today, we Christians say that we accept what was sent to us through Apostolic Succession from the time of Sts Peter, Paul, Thomas, etc. If the Standard Islamic Narrative forgot that the Quran already existed, it is possible that the tradition of the eternal Tablets in Heaven as the uncreated Word or Logos (under the influence of some Monarchian form of Trinitarian Christianity) became detached from that of the person of Jesus Christ, and imposed onto the Qur'an itself, to explain why it refers to something already existing, that was sent down. Moses received the Tablets, the Apostles received the Tradition, and the two are clearly typologized on Surah 2 (I will hopefully make a video on this on my new channel, Hebraic Catholicism). But they are distinct instances of revelation of the eternal Word of God (Jesus Christ, the Messiah revealed in the Torah, confirming (musaddiqin) that which was with them from former times); only later is the received tradition confused with the eternal Tablets in Heaven, perhaps under influence of Adoptionism or Nestorianism.

[@ericthegreat7805]

Was "Let the Qur'an speak" a subtle dig at Shabir Ally lol

[@earlscottchambers4280]

When Murad’s work comes out, will these explanations change?

[@thegreatsecretofislam]

I don't think so. Murad and I already discussed it, he agrees with me.

[@satmat6566]

Thanks Jay for those informative videos ! I would like to understand one little thing not about the content of the video but the behavior of Odon who often smokes his pipe publicly ?? What is the message and example he sets as a christian ? 2 Corinthians 2: 14,15 Christians are called to spread the gospel like a sweet fragrance and our lives should he a pleasant aroma for Christ !! What is more important is not our knowledge but our testimony and how we live the message we preach …. Our lives should be living epistles written by the Holy Spirit on our hearts …. May be I am saying aloud what many say behind doors !

[@OdonLafontaine]

Well, I am at home, enjoying the comforts of life. Nothing wrong in smoking at home. Life is good. Let's be thankful for that. Jesus laughed, enjoyed life, his food and his wine. What kind of example did he set ?

[@dqschannel]

May be I am saying aloud what many say behind doors ! Define many? Some are let to preach others to expose lies. Each is serving a purpose are they not?

[@aaabrams1889]

@@dqschannel YOU ARE THE LIAR!!!

[@satmat6566]

@@OdonLafontaine Ok, I will continue to pray for you . Take take ! Bye !

[@satmat6566]

@@dqschannel “Many “are those pick up who their cross daily and follow the footsteps of Jesus ! Smoking is a bad habit that destroys the body which the Temple of the Holy Spirit ! It depends on under what gospel you are and on which foundation you stand…

[@AndiWidjaja]

Odon, does this mean that the Syriac anti-trinitarian is the nazarene (Jews) and not Syrian (gentile)? Who are they exactly?

[@OdonLafontaine]

Already explained this in detail : look for my videos with Jay and Mel about the "people of the book" and about the "nazarenes". I have put everething on the YT channel "The Great Secret of Islam"

[@orunabho]

Fantastic stuff. At 12:31, all these "we" now makes sense. I always used to wonder, who are these beings that are referred to as "we". Clearly in monotheism...there is only one being, the supernatural God. It is either "I" or "He" or of cause "She". Never "we"

[@aaabrams1889]

When the Creator speaks as 'WE' - IT IS THE ROYAL PLURAL OF MAJESTY. - not more than one.

[@gerrykas1795]

@@aaabrams1889 When did become the "Royal we"?

[@khaledalothman4314]

It is interesting how at verse 10:94 you conveniently left out the rest of the verse, "The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord", in order to make it look like it's a teacher talking to the preacher, instead of god. It's also interesting how you inserted your self serving meaning "taught" to override "revealed". Very interesting.