Odon-Pt.7: How the Qur'an was formed, in 6 STEPS!

[@nemesis1291]

Thanks for the easy explanation and exposure of Islam's sin.

[@urbandsouza7279]

Odon please don't leave Guide us more for the truth

[@dmey2423]

Thank you Odon and Jay- has been great to listen in. Dave

[@Louis.R]

I think it's important to tie this history to the religious life of Umar, in order to explain exactly how these texts came to prominence out of relative obscurity. It is insufficiently explanatory to remark that the Abbasids later adapted these texts into today's Quran, without first emphasising the geo-political situation in Judea and the Levant 600-650, vis-à-vis the role of Arab tribes in propping up Byzantine authority.

[@alonzoharris6730]

There was no Judea in the 7th century.

[@OdonLafontaine]

You are right. This needs complements. Have a look at the other videos Jay and I did together, especially those on coins

[@Ekim1740]

@@alonzoharris6730 no muslim in 7th century

[@jamalkhan3708]

Thank you Dr j Smith for your hard work. I am ex Muslim from Pakistan and with your help along with Dr D Wood and Christian prince I came to accept Jesus Christ my Lord and savior. Thank you 🙏

[@aaabrams1889]

HELLO - YOU WERE NEVER MUSLIM Let me check if you are telling the truth - Answer these 3 easy questions any Muslim child knows 1) When did Islam start? 2) Do Muslims believe that Jesus is the Messiah? 3) Do Muslims pray to Mohammad (saw)?

[@jonahtisamphd.6101]

Very happy for you to have left the cult.

[@jamalkhan3708]

@@aaabrams1889 I know more islam than you. Because I studied that’s why I left islam and the day you study islam you will leave islam as well 🤣

[@jonahtisamphd.6101]

@@aaabrams1889 That's part of your SIN these researches are debunking. Have an open mind and investigate if there's any substance to what has been presented here. Have you ever asked why Ex-Muslims are leaving? Obviously it's not easy for Muslims to leave the fold because everyday the same narratives are repeated (brain washing). It's time to look at what researchers are saying. Good luck with your finding the truth for yourself.

[@aaabrams1889]

@@jamalkhan3708 LET ME CHECK IF YOU ARE TELLING THE TRUTH. Answer these 3 easy questions any Muslim child knows. 1) When did Islam start? 2) is Jesus the messiah in Islam? 3) Do Muslims worship Mohammad (saw)?

[@ksimongeorge5020]

Please translate this into other European languages and Indian languages like Malayalam Hindi Tamil Kannada Telengu Marathi Punjabi Urdu Bengali Kashmiri etc etc and ARABIC CHINESE PERSIA Indonesian Korean Japanese etc etc so that you can enlighten more than three and a half billion people. 🌹

[@capricrescent]

will do sir

[@lounaannajung4454]

I can help with French and Korean

[@lounaannajung4454]

And Arabic

[@sidprice6214]

Translating rubbish is not a good idea.

[@coffeecup7084]

Thank Jay and Odon this was incredible easy to understand

[@mariongranbruheim4090]

This clearly shows that a manuscript of a relatively significant size, left in the hands of human beings for many years, can not and will not remain untouched without the intervention of the Holy Spirit.

[@lounaannajung4454]

It shows that a single lie can lead down a catastrophic path. At some point people knew what was going on and decided to remain silent or nod to the lie "for the greater good" for "the second coming". This is paradoxically tainted with so much arrogance that the only result would be this darkness. When those people decided to lie to further their religious beliefs, the generation that came after them genuinely believed what they preached. That created a lame, blind, and deaf religion. It also shows that no matter how much wisdom you acquire from the Holy Spirit, if you corrupt that with voluntary lies (yours or someone else's) you doom the whole world to darkness.

[@oprophetisfake9482]

We are really being shown up by the language skills of our French and German brothers but we who don't have those language skills still need this material to fight darkness and deception with the truth. Much thanks to Odon and Thomas. Not that we don't also appreciate the work of our brothers on and around sneakers corner too. God bless you all (Not forgetting Jay too). In Jesus's name. Amen.

[@aaabrams1889]

Hello - Odon ADMITTED that be don't believe in scripture...so STOP this idiocy thinking that they (Odon and Jay) is speaking the truth. He also ADMITTED that all his talk is based on conjecture and speculations ...ha ha ha

[@oprophetisfake9482]

@@aaabrams1889 Do you believe in the scriptures of the Bible? What right do you have to talk about truth? Odon is not just about conjecture. It is about analysis of the text of the Qur'an apart from the unreliable so called sources of the hadiths, tafsir etc that were not even written down until hundreds of years after the supposed death of Muhammad. It is the 'religion' of Islam that seems to be built on something much worse than mere consideration of the text of the Qur'an and *_trustworthy_* historical sources, namely Islam is based on deliberate false propaganda and political manipulation. As such it is not a religion but a toxic cult. The Qur'an is obviously hopelessly corrupted to begin with but then the addition of more false corruption of the text or how people are programmed to understand the text makes it at least ten times worse. You have to stop indoctrinating yourself and allowing others to indoctrinate and intimidate you into following what is obviously false. I find Odon's work very interesting and enlightening to understand how the Qur'an has been corrupted from a Christian or heretical Christianlike core to the chimera it has been warped into but at the end of the day you have to come back to something that has sound foundations. We have a saying in the west: "It does what it says on the tin." That is to say it meets the expectations that it gives you. This is not the case with the corrupted Qur'an and the Islam since the corruption of the Christian core text that has been revealed under all the corruption added to it in the so called Qur'an. Examples of how the Qur'an doesn't do what it suggests it will do. The Qur'an is like a joke book from Allah. Every claim it makes, it systematically breaks. It is like a message from God to tell you that this is *_not from God_* . It says: "If it had not been from Allah they would have found many contradictions in it." Then you find that Muslims know so many contradictions that they have twisted or invented a rule to ignore the obvious message that it is not from Allah and instead just decide which contradiction to follow. It could not have been much clearer if it had said: *_Surely if it had been from Allah they would not have a rule of abrogation _* . Then the corrupted Qur'an was not even expected to succeed in deceiving people for that long so they didn't even bother to put it in any logical order for people to even use the Qur'an by itself to use the rule of abrogation. That destroys another claim of the Qur'an - namely to be a complete book. If you need other sources to interpret the Qur'an it is no longer a complete book by itself. And as the Qur'an is not in order of revelation you straight away need to start using historically unreliable sources from people like Al Bukhari, over 200 years too late, or people even less reliable. Then the Qur'an tells you that it is in pure Arabic but the more we look the more foreign words we find all the way through it. Even the word Qur'an is Syriac! The word tawhid is not found in the Qur'an and the nearest thing you can find is 'echad' from Hebrew. As we have said there is a Christian core and most of the New Testament was written in Greek so the word for gospel in the Qur'an 'injeel' is an Arabic or Aramaic pronunciation of the Greek 'euangeliou'. And so it continues with over 200 nonArabic words. Muslims say bring us something like it and we find not only something like it but the original documents that the Qur'an has copied and distorted. So again and again the Qur'an is telling us that it is not from Allah. So where is it from? To think where the Qur'an is really from we must treat it as a crime and ask the question: "Who benefits?" What has been changed and added and who will gain from that? What deliberate deception is in the Qur'an? Who does it libel or slander or seek to slur? We find that it tells obvious lies about Trinitarian Christians and Jews. Even Roman Catholics who pray to Mary only do so to ask her to pray for them to God. No Christians have ever taken Mary as a goddess as the Qur'an suggests. Now people have found an unreliable source about a supposed tiny sect that did supposedly take Mary as a goddess but when we look into the origin of the source we find that too to be unsubstantiated and unreliable. There is a single reference in the whole of history from a man on an island a thousand miles and hundreds of years away from the supposed sect. There is no corroboration anywhere. Even if this sect had ever existed it was a tiny historical sect from hundreds of years before the Qur'an. It is not a standard Christian belief as the false propaganda of the Qur'an suggests. Modern translations of the Qur'an hide the next deliberate lie in the Qur'an and put just three or trinity but the Arabic still really says that the Christians are supposed to make Allah the third of three. Now the Qur'an claims that the Allah of the Qur'an is the Father God of the Torah the Psalms and the Gospel. But Christians always put the Father *_FIRST_* in statements of faith. So again it is an obvious lie and slur, a libel of Trinitarian Christians. There are many other slurs and attacks on Trinitarian Christians all through the Qur'an but these two are obvious deliberate false propaganda. Then we find the same kind of lying false propaganda against the Jews. The Qur'an propaganda has already libelled and slandered the Christians so it just tries to say that the Jews believe the same sort of thing. So it claims that the Jews believe in Usair, which modern propagandists want to say is Ezra because it is the nearest sounding name they can find in the Bible, is believed by Jews to be a son of God as the Christians believe that Jesus is the Son of God. This again is just a deliberate lie. Even the unreliable Muslim sources only invent one or two Jews who say this. Yet the Qur'an again suggests that it is the Jews *_in general_* who believe this lie. So who benefits? Who wanted to encourage people to fight against the Trinitarian Christians and the Jews? The answer is the Umayyads and later the Abassids. And where do we find them in time and geography? In the same places that the historically unreliable Muslim sources start coming from. The same place the modern Qur'an is supposed to have come from. From Baghdad and Kufa. Check it out for yourself. Where is Hafs supposed to have derived his version of the Qur'an from that of Aasim? Where is Al Bukhari from? They all worked in or near Baghdad. The Qur'an is now corrupted Abassid propaganda just deliberately designed to motivate hatred of the Byzantine Christians. Nothing more. Yet the legends of the Qur'an and the hadith propaganda have brought the world over a thousand years of evil. A thousand years of hatred and war and slavery and murdering people for even doubting the lies. Just look at what happened because of this in Africa and is still happening. Look at any video on KZbin about the history of the Arab Slave Trade from 700 CE. Look at more modern times in 'Mauritania slavery's last stronghold'. I wish it really was slavery's last stronghold but looking at other documentaries we find that that is far from the truth and slavery is still there with the descendants of Arabs treating black Africans as animals or worse. They wouldn't even cause an animal to abort a child like in the Mauritania documentary. All because of false propaganda from over a thousand years ago - and the evil continues.

[@aaabrams1889]

@@oprophetisfake9482 YES - I believe in scripture what the Quran confirms, as that is the Last and Final Testament of God to humanity...the rest of your scriptures were corrupted by men and that process is still undergoing....(proof can be given) As far as Odon - he ADMITTED that all his rhetoric is conjecture and speculation. PROOF (this is our conversation) Odon Lafontaine 1 day ago ​ @AA ABRAMS "I don't believe in scriptures. This is for gullible people like you" Odon Lafontaine 6 days ago ​ @AA ABRAMS "Well of course it is speculation. This is an hypothesis, this is how science works: making hypotheses and checking them with reality. It so happens that the quranic text backs up my hypothesis whereas the SIN hypothesis is not." NOW COMING TO YOU Firstly, you can dismiss whatever Odon said as fact. THE PROBLEM You and most Non-Muslims, especially Odon thinks that Mohammad (saw) and other Arabs, whether they were Xtian or not, created Islam and the Quran and copied previous scriptures and were Anti-Trinitarism. HELLO - ISLAM STARTED WITH CREATION and with all the prophets who had the same religion with the same message of Pure Monotheism...Mohammad (saw) COMPLETED the ONLY religion God ordained. NOT TO BE BIASED I collected this from a Jewish Prof. Moshe Sharon who lectures to academics at Israeli Universities. Why should a supposed enemy of Islam, as the evil missionaries say, speak the truth? kzbin.info/www/bejne/qqiVhpV8ZZZ1idk kzbin.info/www/bejne/fXuvpahvptWoeZY

[@sidprice6214]

@@oprophetisfake9482 Odon has openly admitted to me that he has lied and will lie to discredit Islam. Is this a person one can learn truth from?

[@oprophetisfake9482]

@@sidprice6214 Where is your proof. Bring me 4 witnesses. The fact is that it is Muslims who lie to defend their fantasy. The whole thing is conjecture on top of taqiyya on top of corruption on top of fantasy on top of fabrication. Do you know Qur'an? What beings did Allah tell to bow down to Adam? What kind of being is Satan supposed to be according to Islam? Either Allah is wrong to blame Satan when he never told him to bow, or Islam and the Allah of the Qur'an is wrong about the kind of being Satan is. Nothing in the whole fiction is sound. If you want the truth the only thing I can point you to in the Qur'an is Surah 10:94.

[@bobfisher1909]

Awesome guys, this fits in with Thomas latest video on his channel.

[@honeysweety3438]

ini lah dia sebabnya mengapa di Quran Mekkah hanya disebut sekali, Muhammad hanya 4 kali dan itu 2 lebih mengarah ke Yesus, tidak ada shahada, tidak ada sholat 5 waktu, tidak ada Allahu Akbar, tidak ada amin, tidak ada kata tauhid, tidak ada sunat karena tidak secara spesifik dibuat untuk islam dari awalnya (this is why in the Quran Mecca is only mentioned once, Muhammad only 4 times and it's 2 more referring to Jesus, no shahada, no 5 daily prayers, no Allahu Akbar, no amen, no tawheed, no circumcision because it's not specifically made for islam from the start

[@Yuyup7334]

Agreed!

[@bonarsejati9239]

Ternyata nabi palsu pedopil dungu dan kitab satanic verses adalah hasil produk imajinasi ciptaan khilafah dan tentara2 jihad Arab bermoral BIADAB. Itulah sebabnya knp agama ini hanya menghasilkan sampah2 terrorist dan kejahatan di dunia.

[@alrass100]

@@bonarsejati9239 Acts 2 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; ‏1 Kings 1 ‏1 Now king David was old and stricken in years; and they covered him with clothes, but he gat no heat. ‏2 Wherefore his servants said unto him, Let there be sought for my lord the king a young virgin: and let her stand before the king, and let her cherish him, and let her lie in thy bosom, that my lord the king may get heat. ‏3 So they sought for a fair damsel throughout all the coasts of Israel, and found Abishag a Shunammite, and brought her to the king. ‏4 And the damsel was very fair, and cherished the king, and ministered to him: but the king knew her not. ‏15 And Bathsheba went in unto the king into the chamber: and the king was very old; and Abishag the Shunammite ministered unto the king. ‏16 And Bathsheba bowed, and did obeisance unto the king. And the king said, What wouldest thou? ‏17 And she said unto him, My lord, thou swarest by the Lord thy God unto thine handmaid, saying, Assuredly Solomon thy son shall reign after me, and he shall sit upon my throne.

[@alrass100]

@@bonarsejati9239 Do you mean this garbage? ‏ES 2:2-17 King Ahasuerus holds a sexual contest with "fair young virgins" to pick a new Queen (after having been spurned by Queen Vashti). ‏PR 5:19 (KJV) "... Let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love." ‏SO 1:13 "My beloved is to me a bag of myrrh, that lies between my breasts." ‏SO 2:3 "I sat down under his shadow with great delight, and his fruit was sweet to my taste." ‏SO 2:6, 8:3 "His left hand is under my head, and his right hand embraces me." ‏SO 2:16, 6:3 "My lover is mine and I am his. He browses among the lilies." ‏SO 4:5, 7:3 "Your two breasts are like two fawns ...." ‏SO 5:4 (KJV) "My beloved put in his hand by the hole of the door, and my bowels were moved for him." ‏SO 7:1-2 "... the joints of your thighs are like jewels ...." ‏SO 7:7-9 "You are stately as a palm tree, and your breasts are like its clusters. I say I will climb the palm tree and lay hold of its branches. Oh may your breasts be like clusters of the vine ...." ‏SO 8:10 "... and my breasts were like towers." ‏IS 3:17 "The Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the Lord will uncover their secret parts." ‏IS 20:2-4 The Lord himself apparently commands his servant to go naked for three years.

[@aevumcorvi2108]

Thank you for this, and looking forward to the English translation of Odon's book, "The Great Secret of Islam".

[@sidprice6214]

I can save you the trouble of waiting for his pile of rubbish. "The Great Secret of Islam" is that God is not a man.

[@seekingtruth452]

I pray that age of ignorance come to end that those that are redeemed be humbled and follow voice of TRUTH

[@onlylove556]

& what is the truth for u my friend?

[@urbandsouza7279]

@@onlylove556 jesus is the truth.prove me otherwise

[@onlylove556]

@@urbandsouza7279 🙏🏼💯

[@onlylove556]

I'm a Christian

[@yakovmatityahu]

The Antitrinitarian Ebionite Judeo-Nazarene taught and translated the Aramaic lexionary to Arabic...then passed this on to their Antitrinitarian Arab christian preachers friends who inturn taught their arab audience using the same arabic materials.

[@aemiliadelroba4022]

That still doesn’t explain everything.

[@yakovmatityahu]

@@aemiliadelroba4022 doesnt explain what?

[@RJ-fg8kw]

The synthesis of concepts through charts and illustrations is key to understanding the origins and development of the Quran. The conceptual framework established is impressive. A person can plug differerent people and texts into different time periods with the motivations driving the production and development of the Quran. Superb.

[@aaabrams1889]

@messenger ministries HELLO - The trinity was copied from old Pagan religions. You stated that: >>>>> NO WOMAN or MAN...Enters Heaven...EXCEPT...by Jesus... WHAT??? What about all the millions of people BEFORE Jesus? HELLO - Even Satan and Evil Spirits go to heaven and discuss the affairs of man in your Pagan Pantheon according to your corrupted bibles. The GODHEAD IN XTIANITY, comprising of 2 (duality) in the OT, 3 (trinity) in the NT and 4 gods, in which SATAN is part, according to bible scriptures. EXAMPLES * Job 1:6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them * in Revelation 12:10 Satan goes before God day and night. * 1 Kings 22:19-23 Micaiah continued, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne with all the multitudes of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. 20 And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?’“One suggested this, and another that. 21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’ 22 “‘By what means?’ the Lord asked.“‘I will go out and be a DECEIVING SPIRIT in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said.“‘You will succeed in ENTICING him,’ said the Lord. ‘GO and DO IT’ 23 “So now the Lord (Satan) has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The Lord (Satan) has decreed disaster for you. ( brackets added) * God was fed up with King Saul and he permitted an EVIL SPIRIT from his HEAVENLY presence to go and torment him (I Samuel 18:10). * God sent an angel who killed 185,000 Assyrian soldiers in one night (2 Kings 19:35). god left Satan with the ability to kill human beings as well. Think of the millions who have died as a result of satanic powers. * God left Satan with this supernatural intelligence which is very clearly displayed as Jesus was being tempted. Satan reached a stage when he changed tactics and started quoting the Bible!

[@aaabrams1889]

@messenger ministries HELLO - Your so-called TRI-UNE God-Head was copied from old Pagan religions - DEAL WITH IT - Jesus never said that his father is a 3rd - he said that our Lord our God (including himself) is One Lord, not triune. (Mark 12:29) YES - Those names were corrupted and so the NAME OF YOUR GOD - YAHWEH. That was a pagan desert god from Egypt and Babylon. THE PROPER NAME OF THE CREATOR is Allah in Arabic or Alaha as Jesus said in his mother tongue, Aramaic or Elo in Hebrew...NOT yahweh!!! Jesus' original name was Eesa, as this is also his Islamic name and in Aramaic, the language he spoke was Eeso. Even in Latin, it is Iesu, and in Greek it is Iesus. There is also a great deal of evidence that Jesus spoke and preached in Arabic as well. Not only that, but Greek wasn't even that popular in Palestine as it was the language of the Pagans. NOW YOU WANT TO QUOTE FROM SATAN PAUL Saul of Tarsus, the First Anti-christ, the killer of true Christians, the follwers of Eesa. HELLO - SATAN PAUL WAS A LIAR AND A DECEIVER Remember, Yahweh was a Pagan desert god, so his spirit is evil...and Satan Paul promoted this because he was possessed (2 Corinthians 12:7)

[@fantasia55]

@@aaabrams1889 Allah prays to Muhammed.

[@aaabrams1889]

@@fantasia55 That is what the Evil missionaries told you...ha ha ha EDUCATE YOURSELF as you are making a fool of yourself. QURAN 33:56 Indeed, Allah confers blessing upon the Prophet, and His angels [ask Him to do so]. O you who have believed, ask [Allah to confer] blessing upon him and ask [Allah to grant him] peace. The word "usaluna" in that context means 'SENDS BLESSINGS'...just as we, the Muslims say that dua upon Mohammad (saw) and Abraham in our 5 x daily Salats which is: ’Allahumma salli alaa Muhammadiw wa alaa aali Muhammadin, kamaa sallayta alaa Ibraheema wa alaa aali Ibraheema, innaKa Hameedum Majeed. Allahumma baarik ‘alaa Muhammadiw wa alaa aali Muhammadin, kamaa baarakta alaa Ibraheema wa alaa aali Ibraheema, innaKa Hameedum Majeed’. This means, ‘O Allah, send Your mercy, blessings upon Muhammad and the family of Muhammad, just as You sent mercy, blessing upon Ibrahim and the family of Ibrahim. Truly You are Praiseworthy and Glorious. O Allah, send blessings, mercy upon Muhammad and the family of Muhammad, just as You sent blessings upon Ibrahim and the family of Ibrahim. Truly You are Praiseworthy and Glorious’.

[@fantasia55]

@@aaabrams1889 Translators are so ashamed of their Quran that they translate prays to as sends blessings upon.

[@leedza]

Back for another dose of Mufti Odon.

[@infofuralle2201]

Thank you for your great work of putting this together and preparing it so clearly. It's very useful 👍

[@htf5555]

all the pieces fit together almost perfectly. great job

[@felipemillomeda]

Thank you brothers

[@majmundebeli605]

Also, can we have "the process how Muhammad was made" 😁

[@yakovmatityahu]

Yes exactly we need this topic very much

[@Yuyup7334]

Yes, it is the sebsequently complementing topic to this one.

[@trevorgriffiths5611]

Yes this would be a Brilliant 🤩 topic and maybe find out the actual truth.. Because you just can’t trust the standard Islamic narrative..

[@Yuyup7334]

@@trevorgriffiths5611 Yes, and YQ's statement (in mid 2020): "There are big holes in the Narrative" should now (beginning 2022) be replaced by "The Narrative is actualy a big hole in the whole of it".

[@trevorgriffiths5611]

@@Yuyup7334 Exactly Yuser .. Everyday Islam is further exposed for the fraud it really is .. The problem is Muslims are victims of their own ignorance.. Most Muslims haven’t even read the Quran in their own language.. They just accept the fiction and fantasy that they have grown up on sadly..

[@hannapolis8412]

God bless you brothers 🙏🙏🙏💖❤️ Christian Iraqi .

[@HG-kn3hb]

When comparing the standard of scholarship between Islam and Christian, it is obvious which is true.

[@rabukkayeshua2479]

At last the big picture revealed... Bravo PFandersFilm & Mr Odon... Hard work to expose Quran is Arabic collection of scriptures. Awesome job☝🎖👍👏

[@tarnos4153]

A picture is worth a million words.

[@sidprice6214]

The problem is that when the picture is concocted you get a million incorrect words.

[@xianartman]

I tried to find the cartoon on Oden’s website 2-16-22, was not able to locate it. Still keeping the screenshot. Awesome summary from Oden!

[@OdonLafontaine]

This will be online within a few days

[@xianartman]

@@OdonLafontaine thank you!

[@davidzack8735]

This theory ties in very well with Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah. Ibn Ishaq lists the four hanif who went out searching for the true religion of Abraham and who ended up as Ebionite, Nazarene or Nestorian Christians among whom were Waraqa, Muhammad's elderly cousin by marriage. Ibn Ishaq says that the early followers took refuge with the Christian Nestorian king of Abyssinia. He also mentions the other prophets among whom Musaylima of the Judeo Christian Beni Hanifa, who the Quraysh accused Muhammad of learning from as well as from other unnamed Christians and the Beni Hanifa believed that Jesus had not been crucified. . The Ebionites used a version of St Matthew's Gospel and the Qur'an's account of the Last Day is in places taken almost word for word from that Gospel. The channel Useful Charts has a post about the origin of the Quran which is really interesting in that it shows that the garbled stories of the prophets in the Quran are nothing more than oral summaries of stories already orally summarised by others. And again this ties in with Muhammad's claimed illiteracy and the fact that the Qur'an itself talks of accusations made against him of merely 'repeating legends of the ancients.'

[@silverltc2729]

That is because the Qur'an is a 5th century lectionary of Aramaic hymns about Jesus Christ. He is the real Praised One/Muhammad.

[@davidzack8735]

@@silverltc2729 That's the latest trendy theory for which there is no factual evidence. Why would any Judeo Christian sect start calling Jesus 'Muhammad'? It was an accepted Arabic forename and Muhammad himself had a close companion named Muhammad ibn Maslama who carried out the assassination of Ka'b b al-Ashraf after Badr. When the Prophet Muhammad conquered Khaybar and tortured their leader Kinana to death by lighting a fire on chest to make him reveal the whereabouts of the treasure of the Beni al-Nadir, he allowed Muhammad ibn Maslama to behead the tortured man 'in revenge for his brother Mahmud ibn Maslama killed by a millstone thrown down from the ramparts of the fort of Naim on the first day of battle.

[@silverltc2729]

@@davidzack8735 Mahmadim= Lovely written in the Song of Songs 5:16. Ahmed is "Highly Praised". Who receives praise/worship except God? The first statement- is answered in John 15:13 "Greater live hath no more than this, to lay down ones life for his friends". That is why Jesus is the Lovely Praised One. No matter how you wrap it up, it is a blue circle going in a blue circle hole.

[@alonzoharris6730]

@@silverltc2729 Hamad doesn't exist in Syriac. Your myth is completely debunked. The 3 letter root H M D doesn't exist in Syriac. How can this be a Syriac lectionary if the word doesn't exist in Syriac lol. Even in Pre Islamic times Mohamed is never used for Jesus. Why do you believe in this nonsense? What's your reason to believe in this nonsense with zero historical and linguistic evidence?

[@davidzack8735]

@@silverltc2729 Any minute now and you'll be claiming like the Muslims do already that the word for the Holy Spirit, Paraclete or Comforter (Munahhemana) if mumbled enough soynds like the name Muhammad and therefore the Prophet Muhammad is foretold in the Gospel of St John! 🤣

[@AndiWidjaja]

Why final? We want more!

[@OdonLafontaine]

there will be

[@doritaprowse5220]

I HAVE WATCH THE WHOLE PROCESS, WAS AMAZING THINGS, GOD BLESS DR J SMITH AND DR. ODON. AMEN🙏🙏🙏

[@pvdguitars2951]

What a blessing, the Truth shall prevail. Still think that it would be useful to dissect sura by sura, verse by verse and to catalogue the materials as early judeo-Nazarene texts Folklore from the era Bastardized sections from the Bible Eschatology type texts (early materials) Dark passages Later (pure Islamic) insertions. Christian prayers Etc.

[@drewdricky]

Sounds like a plan!

[@canonjean-mignon4985]

This channel is underrated: it turns christians into atheists, once they learn about islam.

[@aaabrams1889]

"it turns christians into atheists" ...WOW - This that how Xtian dawah works?

[@sidprice6214]

If you became an atheist supposedly after learning about Islam then you didn't actually learn about Islam. What you learned about is the opposite to Islam. Had you actually learned about Islam then you would believe in the oneness of God - one God, one religion, one humanity, one family of Prophets, and one Book.

[@SzTz100]

Wow, first time as a Muslim I see this.

[@b0ys0l09]

great work !

[@applesept339]

Let' print it into a small booklets and distribute it globally " The orgin existence of Islam"

[@NotLikeWhatYouThink]

@messenger ministries kids if qoute exodus you brain must know that children of isreal worship Elohim/El/Allah so the who punish them disobey sabath also its El..He didnt like human associate partnership with others..only real God didnt like it..fake god or fake claim god without power etc of course they will never mad bcs they not god🤣The biggest sin in islam was associate partnership Allah with others..so they if didnt repent all the good deeds will not count and deleted disqualify for them entering heaven while non muslim they clearly who didnt worship Allah eg says Allah have son(jesus) or worship idol or creation thats why non muslim doesnt have trial on judgement day directly straight to hell..hypocrites muslim enter hell first followed by non muslim..so no matter how good non belivers are taking associate partnership toward Real God will be ended with worst consequences.Dont ever lie Allah dont give guidance even watching this video about islam or al quran..walking,breate etc suppose make human thinking who creator of those..who give provision?For Allah to put muslim or non muslim in hell or heaven there must be a solid proof that you cant even stand infront of Allah laughing proud or says its not you who do it why?bcs Allah says He knows what in your heart😅

[@SHA.P.S]

No we need those older books , or ruins or atleast post destruction evidence left by people suffered, any evidence to prove. But the criminals are too good like conventional courts letting out murderers by lack of evidence we have no choice but to let them go.

[@sidprice6214]

And say what?

[@rockzalt]

We do have the DSS and one similarity is striking. It too is a collection of writings along with the scriptures. It would make sense that scribes/preachers who are protected by kings and caliphs will have the skillset necessary to produce an "official" book that gives these kings and caliphs their authority among men.

[@yakovmatityahu]

Odon uses the term "Judeo-Nazarene" and Thomas uses the term "Antitrinitarian christians "...both views can be reconciled because we know that Ebionites were Judeo Christian Antitrinitarians....Nice video Jay and Odon...Do we have a book in pipeline from Odon to summarize his theory?

[@atifsabat4211]

I was very pleased to understand the link between these two groups when I listened to a video to a church history teacher ( Bruce Goer), the video was about the early church history and he mentioned that Jewish Christians fled Jersualem after its destruction in 70 AD and went to Anticoh ( North West of Syria) and carried with them a form of Christianity that is heavily influenced by Jewish monotheism and traditions, and from it the Ebonite movement was born that later developed into the full blown and much known Arianism. Equally was amazing to know that Arian was taught there in Anticoh before he moved to Alexandria and started proclaiming his new theology. The city where Christians were first named as Christians had become the cradle of anti- Christian theology.

[@yakovmatityahu]

@@atifsabat4211 you got it right 👍 Antioch was hijacked by antitrinitarians to spread their antitrinitarian theology to Eastern Mediterranean region.

[@gebedzandvoort]

I don't think so, 1. the Ebionites lived in Transjordanië but the Judeo Nazarene were settled near Lataquie (coast of Syria). 2. The Judeo-Nazarene they were looking forward to a POLITICAL Messiah, the Ebonites not. 3. The Ebionites believed in Adoptionism, the Judeo-Nazarene (as far as I know) not. 4. After the 4th century we don't here anything about the Ebionites anymore, the just disappeared from the radar. But according to Odon the Judeo-Nazarene conquered Jerusalem in 638 with help of the Arabs (Umar and Mohammed?).

[@miguelsureda9762]

Read A.J.Deus and you will get it.

[@yakovmatityahu]

@@gebedzandvoort ohk

[@Pappu_9065]

Really great job Odin the sad thing is that this Muslims don’t understand

[@sidprice6214]

BS baffles brains - your brains.

[@slippingsnake]

I'm not saying Odon is wrong but I would feel better if this Hypothesis would be more flexible and open for different ideas. Like: what if the development of the quaranic text started with a small group of people and only after 670 a. gained broader attention or attention of the people in Power. (I choose 670 because after 680 we see quaranic phrases on coins and the Dome of the Rock).

[@Ekim1740]

that phrase was used by non trinitarian christians in ancient times. That text also mentions Mohammed but its is used as The praised one which is the title of Jesus. It also quoting verse of Corinthian 1 8:4 “No other God but one” to justify their anti trinitarian belief.

[@OdonLafontaine]

I am open for different ideas, but I have to keep in mind the "big picture". The quranic text tells about the conquest of the masjid al haram. When and where did such a conquest happen? I don't think it can be after 640

[@slippingsnake]

@@OdonLafontaine Thanks for all your work and I have to say that the comic-form is lovely and brilliant! Obviously you can't get into every detail without losing overseight, so what I'm dreaming of is a historical timeline (Thoms Alexander just did one) an then we can apply events/ developments/ Hypothesis on. I sound ungrateful but there are different concepts about the early days of Islam, some of them are contradicting each other; But I think some of the Contradictions can be solved if we take into account that we have a large timeframe and that different developments can happen at the same time (and maybe merge later). In our case here: I think it is possible that the evolution of the quaranic text (how you show it) and the rise of the Arabs in Syria are independent, the Conquest of Jerusalem a Consequence of military and political Matters. Though we see efforts in Jerualem the focus is on further expansion and consolidation of the Empire. Also "al-Quds" is not named in the Quran, wich is strange anyway, the Quran tells us about Idolators and this does not match the situation in Jerusalem (until we see the trinitarian Christians as Idolators?)?

[@khaledalothman4314]

@@slippingsnake the Quran is much more explicit about the idolators, it cannot be interpreted as merely referring to trinitarian Christians (which it nevertheless does but also exclusively explicit)

[@iamdoctorcat6347]

This all video and channel need to get million views and 1 million subscribers more than David Wood and AP

[@dickcheezeful]

Odon's got the pipe out! you know it's going to be a good video

[@aldredtawasil9339]

* the process of compiling the holy Quran from various written page was done in 4 steps* 1.Zayd bin thabit verified each verse with his own memory. 2.Umar ibn al- khattab verified each verse. both men had memorized the entire Quran. 3. two reliable witnesses had to testify that the verses were written in the presence of the holy prophet Muhammad ( pbuh). 4. the verified written verse were collated with their from the collection of the other companions.

[@urbandsouza7279]

Good where is that ?

[@parthynaikoshivsagar2896]

God bless you always 🙏 Har Har mahadev 🙏

[@ericsyiem6785]

The S.I.N. called Mohammed the last prophet, when I listened to Odon lectures i think, perhaps, Mohammed was the last of the preachers who received the instructions from the earlier teachers. Thank you for your great work.

[@leedza]

If you follow the historical part that Odom did, it seems like there is a succession of 7th century Arab leaders who called themselves the Muhammad. As in the Desired one of God. Check out the dissemination of the coins.

[@ghulamhilali2282]

It's an amazing summarization, but quite incomplete in my view. It only mentioned period 600 to 750 AD. It missed the making of these texts even before that. Description has more details than the slides. I would love to see historical names and places that were in action this period for more clarity. Also mentioning sources of these information could spellbound the critiques. But at the end, I would like to thank you from bottom of my heart for enlightening us with all theses historical materials that were taboo for centuries.

[@OdonLafontaine]

This needs a book, not a video summary. Hopefully, there is a book. It will be published in English very soon

[@e-college-sait]

of course it is summarized, that is the whole thing of a summarization. your questions are answered in other videos

[@maze208]

Gbu

[@majmundebeli605]

Hmm is that why the hadith were invented? To explain this mess?

[@yakovmatityahu]

Yes exactly

[@slippingsnake]

Actualy first comes the Biographie for Mohammed and then the Hadith. Not just to clearify confusion but to construct a corpus for Theology and Law.

[@Yuyup7334]

Right! And that's why even now, and it will be so forever, without hadiths and tafsirs, Islamic Quran, if it is read alone, is a confusion and makes no sense whatsoever.

[@silverltc2729]

@majmum Debeli to make Muhammad look more human than God. Muhammad is The Praised One, which is a title that belongs to Jesus.

[@MU-we8hz]

Yes. If tou read chapter 19 verse 27-28, Miriam(mother of islamic Jesus) is called the sister of Aaron. Christians know that that Moses and Aaron had a sister called Miriam. The writer of the quran confused the two Miriams. This disaster if "fixed" in the hadith. Hadith are for fixing the quranic disasters.

[@gregbeaudry]

Question to ask Muslims: If the Jews and Christians perverted their Holy Books so they don’t match their original message, which stories are twisted and which ones do Muslims believe in? And why?

[@jrtampa52]

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

[@preapple]

Is one of the Judeo Nazarenes Gabriel Turab Abedin in slide 1? Is the arab preacher in slide 2 Caliph Umar ibn al-Khaṭṭāb? is the eliminator Uthman ibn Affan in slide 4? Is the gatherer Al-Hajjaj ibn Yusuf under the guidance of Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan in slide 5? Is Caliph Al-Ma'mun the final one in slide 6.

[@boriss.861]

Jay and Odon a Pinned Link so we can print this off would be so useful

[@suzettejansen9808]

I think Thomas Alexander and the German school is more convincing.The Quran was originally Aramaic influenced by Nestorian Church and this history played out in the clash of empires,Byzantine,Sassanid and finally the rise of the Arabs.A small. localized forgotten group of Nazarenes with possibly a handful of Arab preachers is difficult to imagine.Linguistics,minted coins and Architecture tells the story.But I still love Odin and his pipe and his wisdom

[@OdonLafontaine]

What is the quran, then ?

[@yakovmatityahu]

I dont find any contradiction between Odon and Thomas...because Odon says that Judeo-Nazarene texts in aramaic were translated into arabic for their arabic students...Thomas says that the Quran is the product of Antitrinitarian Arabic christians...both can be reconciled with minor combinations !!!! Only if we look it more closely.

[@fantasia55]

the Qur'an was still being edited as recently as 1924.

[@PrinceeugenioII]

at what point does the caliphate burn the previous text? and makes 30 copies? which become the 30 variants?

[@RamonArael]

These Judeocristianismo-Nazarenes must be the remnants of the Arian heresy that shook the Church from the fourth to the sixth century. Remember also that around 530 AD the defeated Vandals where moved to this area by the Byzantines..

[@kodama44]

two bearded elder men waving sift! adorable!

[@Purwapada]

awesome work odon!!! very nice. I was just wondering if you could include the regions and languages too :)

[@simonhengle8316]

A superb presentation thank you Odon, and thank you Dr. J. Smith for Point summary. What do you think of what Monika Benay has to say in the comments?

[@MrDrbld]

Great job Odin!!. These arguments are transmitted well via this graphical fomrat . A higer level sttoryboard could be a deeper version of this in order to palce geograhy and Wrtiter into the contunuum. Has anyone done a time line fo the existing Mushafs refering to the geography of their origin (Not Mecca) and also the completion of the suras in each one pointing out the Omissions vis a vis the Cairo version?

[@sidprice6214]

You can dress it up which ever way you like but BS remains BS.

[@MrDrbld]

@@sidprice6214 Not sure if he only has a BS ( Bachelor of Science). I think you are not so used to academic standards as is more likely at a Master to Phd level but I think we get the point. Sid. If that's who you are.

[@sidprice6214]

@@MrDrbld Sorry to disappoint you mate but Odon is nowhere near Masters or PhD level especially when it comes to the subject of Islam. Odon's academic level is that of conjecture and story telling. The sad part is people like you cannot even see that so you carry on about Masters and PhD. I have previously made comments to Odon to which he responded. At first he was quite nice but when i continued to press him for the mistakes he was putting out he got pretty ugly about it. He finally admitted that he could say and did say whatever he liked even if it was false because he lived in a free society. He openly admitted to lying about Islam because it is his "right" to able to do so. And this is the "academic standards", "Masters" and "PhD" that you look up to? I too have reached the highest level i can go in my professional field but make no boastful claims of academic achievement. However i can academically analyse any "stories" that people like Odon come with. I have already commented on Dr Brubaker's "Corrections in Early manuscripts" which is supposed to be based on his earlier academic thesis. The mistakes, errors and unsubstantiated assumptions that Dr Brubaker are all there to see if you take the time. How he got a PhD for his "corrections" is a bewilderment to me. Any fool with half a brain can work out the difference between scribal mistakes and deliberate/intentional changes with motive. Its a good indication of where western scholarship has sunk to and so much for you beating your "academic standards" drum.

[@MrDrbld]

@@sidprice6214 Interesting. Txs for sharing. BTW, there are so many trolls on these chats that 'Sid Price' could be anything. Feedback noted , and I will incorporate your comments in my thinking. I am avidly tracking these videos and have yet to come to a consensus. Since it os a VAST subject. If Univ standards are anything to go by, and admitting your feedback , he still COULD be at Masters or Phd level. (I have worked with 3 in UK, 2 in US and 5 in Spain) so, happy to admit your criteria, however, I speak from first hand experience.

[@markusgorelli5278]

12:28 Q.37:49 As though they are (F) protected/ *covered* whites/eggs (Muhammad Ahmed & Samira ) Hence Q 56:77 It is an honourable Quran Q.56.78 In a Book that is *covered* 📓 Since the Quran would not have received a "cover" until much later, then it behooves the academics to claim that the Quran & 'kitab' mentioned in these two verses no longer refers to the Quran but to the register in heaven.

[@redleaf4902]

En train d'écouter une 2e fois. Ça fait un moment que je n'ai pas pu visionner tous les vidéos; je suis un peu mêlée dans mes siècles; j'ai sauté plusieurs vidéos; ai-je raison de comprendre que dans le premier carreau, on est situé juste aprés la desctuction du 2e Temple? Allez-vous ajouter des 'circa' (dates possibles) dans vos carreaux? Merci Monsieur Odon. Formidable présentation!!! (Pour le carreau 4, c'est facile car vous mentionnez le Siège de Jérusalem.) Bon; je viens à l'instant de voir les notes dans la description du vidéo. Donc, je vois que l'on est au 7e siècle déjà au premier carreau. Pardon. Astuce-prononciation: -pour le mot anglais /taught/, imaginez dire "tâtonner"; - imaginez voir /tâtte/. (la mâchoire inférieure descend)

[@dannywlm63]

You should do a t-shirt with the comic strip on

[@nunyabeeswax9463]

A few more time stamps would be beneficial

[@maligjokica]

12:34 can this photo be put in a pdf file so we can download and use it? EDIT: ended watching the video and saw where i can do that:)))

[@fantasia55]

Take a screenshot.

[@fay1298]

Thank you Odon. What was the incentive for the Christianised Arabs to join the Judeo-Nazarenes to conquer Jerusalem? Was it a genuine belief that the Messiah will return or the belief that they were descendants of Abraham; through his son Ishmael; which gave them the right to claim Jerusalem?

[@OdonLafontaine]

"Spiritual" incentives : you will trigger Jesus' return, there will be an end to the suffering, the war, the injustice "Material" incentives : you will get bounty, slaves, riches and you will be masters and generals and leaders in Jesus' kingdom

[@yakovmatityahu]

Their incentive might have been that Arab antitrinitarians wanted to ally with their fellow judeo christian antitrinitarian brothers while the whole region was bastion of Trinitarian christianity who expelled antitrinitarians from byzantine empire.

[@fay1298]

@@OdonLafontaine thank you. The material incentives will be enjoyed in heaven instead of earth. A belief that remains to this day.

[@fay1298]

@@OdonLafontaine also great diagrams. Thank you.

[@OdonLafontaine]

@@fay1298 paradise in heaven and kingdom of God on earth look very much alike according to the messianist expectations. The Quran seems to confuse both of these

[@earlscottchambers4280]

Would there be a Number 7, where the Standard Islamic Narrative (SIN) is added? And when?

[@dinosaur0073]

Thank you for your efforts... But you didn't mention Zoroastrianism notes and Persian political side for the need of new religion...

[@OdonLafontaine]

It is only a summary. But you are very right on the influence of Persia on the making of Islam. Not only Zoroastrianism but also Manicheism, and Persian culture, and so on. The translation of the Quran into Persian was made very soon (9th cent. if I remember correctly), and it had a "canon" status equivalent to the Arabic version

[@dinosaur0073]

@Odon Lafontaine thank u for replying. Zoroastrianism was part of that movement to Juresalam, but their goal was to fight Byzantine for their emperor....I interesting stuff

[@blacklisted4885]

Excellent breakdown. Create PDF download. Or sell an ebook! Now we need to link in Muhammad, was he real or was getting invented. It's crying out for a book

[@midnightwatchman1]

How does this explain the "So call" dark passages? in the Quran were these passages created by the Quran originally being in Syriac Aramaic

[@Purwapada]

they were copied from Christian Aramaic hymns, whch were incorporated into the Arab lectionaries.

[@sidprice6214]

The Prophet (PBUH) could neither read nor write Arabic so how could he then read and write Syriac Aramaic? What are these "dark passages" that you speak of?

[@midnightwatchman1]

@@sidprice6214alot of scholars and experts believe that Mohammid could read and write. when the quoran said is not able to read it just means he does not have a holy book, unlike the Jews who had the holy scriptures. and from your prospect why would God ask Mohammid to do what was impossible for him to do. and from your own narratives, there are stories of Mohammid rubbing out his name, Mohammed asking for pen and paper before he dies so he can write something down. So the notion that Mohammed could not read or write actually unsupported even by Islamic sources and actually makes little sense

[@midnightwatchman1]

@@sidprice6214 some scholars estimate that 25% of the Qoran, the meaning of the script in Arabic is uncertain. some say when interpreted in Syriac these passages make more sense. for example when Mary gives birth to Jesus. in Arabic the angel "says to her be not sad your Lord has placed a little river beneath you " when translated considering the Syriac the angel says "be not sad your lord has made your delivery legitimate" which makes a lot more sense.

[@midnightwatchman1]

@@sidprice6214 next example passage dealing with the hurries "We have paired them with dark wide-eyed maidens" if you put dots differently using Syriac rules what comes out is " we will make you comfortable under white crystal-clear grapes". So no 72 virgins but grapes sorry

[@khany6345]

@Odon. Does this means that Mohammad existed as a person? Because you did mention that Mohammad could be one of preacher of “KITAB”, the BOOK. If he did, then where he was living? Mecca or Medina or somewhere else. Why Muslims have to create story of Mohammad’s migration to Medina from Mecca , if he was living some other part of Arabia. Was it because KAABA was built in Mecca? Another question; when Kaaba 🕋 was built by Arabs? Was it built by Judeau Nizzarene or by Ummiyads? Thanks in advance.

[@OdonLafontaine]

We have to keep in mind that there was an historical figure, an actual figure that bore the title "muhammad" (and maybe several figures), and that there is the "Prophet figure" that was invented by the SIN's authors. The "Prophet figure" was created out of : - collective memories from the actual events of the 7th cent that were deformed in order to fit the new narrative - inventions like the "circumstances of the revelation" that were made to give a new islamic meaning to the Quran - inventions for the Sacred Islamic Epic Story of the conquests, of the rashidun caliphs, of the division between Sunnis and Shias... - inventions that were made to justify the behaviour of the caliphs (like killing their opponents or having all the women) and to justify the rules and administration of the new empire

[@khany6345]

@Odon Lafontaine I also think that Mohammad was a title or name given to certain type of person, and was not a name in normal way. That is why I still yet to find a name Mohammad among the traditional past names and present names in Arabia. Outside Arab world Mohammad is used as First name among converts to Islam or born to converts , but not used to call that person with this name. You did not mention when Kaaba was built and who built it for what specific purpose. I know this video is not on this topic. But are you going to talk about on this topic in near future? There is some literature out there but I am interested in your research. Once again thanks a lot for giving time to my questions. It is very generous of you.

[@yakovmatityahu]

@@khany6345 what more...the Historical Muhammed of history is proven by the hard evidence of Coins...while the Islamic Muhammed the prophet is no where found in the 7th or untill mid 8th century.

[@yakovmatityahu]

@@khany6345 Mel from Sneakers corner has lot of videos on the topic of Kaaba...check his channel

[@deltadom33]

Cool comic , I am interested in what is the etymology of the term Qur'an and date of the term

[@universalflamethrower6342]

It has been discussen and answered on this channel, you Just have to sarah for it

[@deltadom33]

@@universalflamethrower6342 I was just interested in whether the phrase was redacted

[@universalflamethrower6342]

@@deltadom33 oh my bad, I can't help you with that question

[@sidprice6214]

That's right Dominic. They can tell everything about Islam and the Quran right down to how it came from Christians but they cannot even tell you where the word "Quran" came from. This should tell you what BS you are dealing with.

[@Zomfoo]

Can we download the PowerPoint presentation?

[@OdonLafontaine]

Yes, it will soon be available on my website I am working on a new edit of the Quran videos series along with the presentation file. It will be done this weekend

[@Bei-Abedan]

Except that the Judeo-Nazarenes were not eliminated and neither were our scriptures. It's very close but not quite.

[@OdonLafontaine]

I think the JudeoNazarenes leaders were killed, and the rest were outcasted (talking here about the very specific Judeo-Nazarenes that the quranic text defines). I think there are traces of this in the SIN (deformed memories): - the breaking of the alliance between the Arabs and the Yathrib Jewish tribes, and the massacre of the Banu Qurayza - the further massacre of the "ahl al bayt" (people of the Temple = what remained of this alliance) by the Umayyads

[@Bei-Abedan]

@@OdonLafontaine I have lready prepared a presentation correcting only two small errors Everything else I agree with.

[@effertaru8933]

how about the place in step 1 to 6? thx

[@OdonLafontaine]

Middle East !

[@noelshabo9497]

The first student for the nazzariens could it be muhammad?

[@yakovmatityahu]

Yes first Arab antitrinitarian student could have been Muhammed...or one of the most prominent student.

[@ankur7773]

ISLAM IS NOT ABRAHAMIC RELIGION💯✅

[@tarnos4153]

The final step should ask, who perpetuates the SIN and why?

[@OdonLafontaine]

This is easy since we have so many contemporary examples: look at Yasir Qadhi. He is an expert on the SIN. He knows it is false, that the narrative "has holes in it". Yet he keeps the truth to himself, and lies to his fellow muslims in order to maintain his position and to save Islam

[@simonewilliams7224]

I think I’d rather call them as graphic guides

[@joesprinkle]

How does your reconstruction compare with that of Thomas Alexander? Do they differ or are the compatible?

[@OdonLafontaine]

It almost fits. We have issues however on the Judeonazarenes and some details. But we'll work them out.

[@yakovmatityahu]

@@OdonLafontaine do we have a book in pipeline from you?

[@OdonLafontaine]

@@yakovmatityahu Yes, we have!

[@alonzoharris6730]

Odan wants a Judeo Christian group. Thomas wants a Uniterian Christian group that has nothing to do with Judaism. The only question you should ask is why they want this. Then everything becomes clear.

[@yakovmatityahu]

@@OdonLafontaine ohk Thank you for the update

[@gebedzandvoort]

Odon, do you have evidence that there were Jewish Christian Communities like the Judeo Nazarene in the Levant in the 5th en 6th century, for example from Archeology or from the writings of the Church Fathers?

[@yakovmatityahu]

We do have...their is a 6th century tomb found in northern Israel which has features of a jewish christian tomb...i forgot the exact location of it in Israel but i guess its near Nazareth....their is even a video on the youtube you can check that.

[@gebedzandvoort]

@@yakovmatityahu Just watched the video "Ancient Tombs of the First Jewish Christians" from TBN Israel. But they did not mention that these tombs were built in the 6th century.

[@yakovmatityahu]

@@gebedzandvoort ohk but i saw another video of same topic they mentioned its from 6th century

[@sonofassylum1700]

Obiously there was no man name muhamad.🤭🤭

[@sidprice6214]

Obviously you prefer to listen to nonsense.

[@RandomMoves923]

Please pass on the tract to Chick publications for dissemination ( I am not business related)

[@mariongranbruheim4090]

2:36 🏁

[@aemiliadelroba4022]

This is not good enough explanation. It leaves many other questions unanswered. It can not b just work of some Arab preachers , and Muhammad .

[@MBiernat0711]

Jay, Odon - it is time, once again, - to take on another yet revolutionary idea. The idea is that the idea of “prophet Muhammad” is based on historical “Omar bin Khattab (Vatiation of Katab?) who, after invading Jerusalem, accepted Christianity and, thus, was murdered by his own followers. From the early Syriac writings we know of a “prince” or leader of the Saracens, who would engage in disputes and was taught by the Christians. Now - this person, as a soldier and war lord - had difficulty understanding and accepting the message of Christ- he simply accepted Jesus as “Muhammad” or the Messiah to come and cause the Last Day of Judgment. Thus -/ he was the leader of those who followed “Muhammad”. Of course, later - this narrative was obscured and hidden - and the myth of “prophet Muhammad “ emerged. Yet - at the beginning of Islam - there was no “prophet Muhammad” - there was Omar and the Messenger to come, the Jesus of the second coming aka “Muhammad.”

[@alonzoharris6730]

What is a Christian?

[@khany6345]

I think your evaluation makes more sense. But who built KAABA is the most un answered question remains. Some thing make sense about evolution of Islam and Mohammad.

[@yakovmatityahu]

@@khany6345 my best guess about Kaba is that it was originally in Jerusalem as Paul and Mel have stated...but later during late umayad and early abbasid times a desert oasis town of mecca was chosen to invent the story of a prophet Muhammed in mecca...

[@sidprice6214]

Jeez Monika you're still going on about the "Khattab" /"Katab" matter. The person who came up with this nonsense even realised their mistake some time ago. By the way its not "Katab" but "Kitab" which means book in Arabic. There is no connection between "Khattab" and "Kitab" especially since "Khattab" is the name of a person like Monika may be your name.

[@sidprice6214]

This "revolutionary idea" is so warped that it defies words. i will however say this: 1. He was not murdered by his followers but by a Zoroastrian slave (from Persia) called Abu Lu'lu Ferose. 2. He was not murdered in Jerusalem but in Medina 3. Jerusalem was conquered in 637 and he was assassinated in 644. 4. "Muhammad" does not mean Messiah. 5. Umar ibn Al-Khattab's (RA) predecessor Abu Bakr (RA) was also assassinated as was Ali ibn Abi Talib his post-decessor. Does this mean that since they too are historical figures that Muhammad (PBUH) is based on them?

[@mariongranbruheim4090]

1:23 But if you stick a comic into YOUR Bible, you’ve changed every copy of the Bible in the world! This is exactly how *_“THE_*_ Bible was corrupted!”_ (= Abdul -logic).

[@mariongranbruheim4090]

In fact, this is how *_THE_*_ “Original Injeel”_ was LOST: Some butter fingered Christian dropped it somewhere, and forgot to go back and pick it up. (More Abdul-logic).

[@OdonLafontaine]

@@mariongranbruheim4090 well, it might be, but this is not the issue here and it wouldn't change a thing to this presentation

[@aaabrams1889]

@@mariongranbruheim4090 YOUR Abdul-logic is working...

[@sidprice6214]

What is this "Abdul-logic" that you repeat constantly?

[@tropicalstrings]

Why you never ask Bil Warner phd.

[@FARABALE66]

This is probably right. The judeo-nazarenes are precisely the "Nasaras" mentioned in the Quran, sort of Jews who adopted Jesus, but who were rejected by the rabbinic Jews. They may be those Jews who never accepted the defeat of the jewish revolt of Bar Kokhba (130CE), when the Rabbinism emerged. The Quran has some verses saying that the Nasaras are friends (of course then), and suddenly in orhers become ennemies. The Nasaras are not the Christian, the muslims pretend, they were "too much jewish", following the kasherout and religious discriminations toward the gentiles. They were speaking very little greek and above all Syriac/aramaic. They were the ones to give the syriac Diatesseron (summarized gospel) to the arabs, and this is why the Quran refers to THE gospel (only one, al injil, not the 4 the chalcedonians christian were using). The monophysits Ghassanids arabs of Syria al shams, were probably less closer to the Nasaras, the Nestorians Lakhmids arabs were. The Tayyayé tribe may have been the most converted by the Nasaras, probably. The Tayyayé may have been the first muhajirun (of the Quran), those who first joined the fighting movement. The christian we know today were at that time the Chalcedonian/Melkites. They were trinitarian, and are called Mushrikun in the Quran. It becomes critical nowadays to describe precisely what happened and the the legends aside.

[@jensjensen8630]

Regarding the black stone then the Roman Goddess called Magna Mater they used a black stone to represent her. This stone was brought to Rome. Could this stone be the one in the Kaaba today? Magna Mater; we know from contemporary sources that the image of the goddess present in the temple was aniconic and represented by a black stone!

[@aaabrams1889]

HELLO - ISLAM IS PURE MONOTHEISM and the Black Stone was not black but White...as it is a Stone from Paradise that came to show Adam where to build the First House of God.

[@sgt.grinch3299]

@AA you are incorrect. Please research islam more deeply.

[@aaabrams1889]

@@sgt.grinch3299 Tell me what is incorrect as I studied comparative religions at University level....and Islam came out tops.

[@fantasia55]

It was common in that area for people to worship meteorites.

[@aaabrams1889]

@@fantasia55 HA HA HA - your ignorance says it all in your comment.

[@divyachacko3449]

V simple. One anothee thing what is mushaf and ahruf?

[@urbandsouza7279]

Written text on paper and mode of recitations mode

[@CarlosIvanDonet]

Interesting when Louis Farrakhan was in Cuba he was promoting the Nation of Islam as the lost tribe to Iran 🇮🇷

[@charlesiragui2473]

Odon, in slide one you have a book image with "other scriptures" written next to it. Is this referring to non Christian/Jewish sourced text passages in today's Quran? Or is this Nazarene homiletic/hymnal type writings? If the Nazarenes were the Teachers (not Allah), then how did these non Christian/Jewish sourced text passages get into the final product? Would these Zoroastrian and other sourced passages have come later, after the split with the Nazarenes, and would then have come from other Arab groups in the Persian area (along the lines of Thomas's Merv hypothesis)?

[@OdonLafontaine]

I am referring to non biblical scriptures: Jewish traditions and "intertestamental literature", syriac apocalypses, christian traditions (Proto gospel of James) or pseudo-christian (apocryphals)

[@charlesiragui2473]

@@OdonLafontaine That makes sense in their placement within the context of the relationship with the Nazarenes and also explains the strong influence of non-biblical literature as source material. It is still odd that the quranic material does not display influence demonstrating direct knowledge of scripture but rather exclusive sourcing from these extra biblical texts. Odder still is the non Christian/Jewish sourced material in the Quran (Zoroastrian, Sabian, Buddhist). I suppose this confluence of text sources must come after the failure of the apocalypse in 640.

[@charlesiragui2473]

@@OdonLafontaine Another critical question is I think resolved in your cartoon schema: why the Arabic Lectionary disappeared. The answer is that the failure of the apocalypse caused a massive rejection of the Teachers, so in the chaos the lectionary itself was lost, leaving only the notes and instructions. Fair? Do you think the lost Arabic Lectionary would have had more recognizable Biblical sourcing? Christian lectionaries with which we're familiar in Roman Empire-descended Christianity would be exclusively readings from the Bible. But do we have a sense of lectionaries in the Aramaic world? Would they have included hymns/homilies?

[@OdonLafontaine]

@@charlesiragui2473 There seem to be a direct knowledge of the scriptures by the preacher. When we see him (or them) preaching in the Quran, they refer to Moses or Joseph as well known biblical figures. But he gives his own interpretation of their story. For example, the persecution of Joseph is featured as an analogy to the difficulties that tumble upon the preacher. Or the figure of Ishmael is featured as representing the actual Arab believers.

[@aaabrams1889]

@@OdonLafontaine All biblical figures in the bibles are corrupted ...these prophets were the BEST of people representing God's teachings but the bibles have Disgraced their honor and piety ... THE CORRUPTED BIBLES painted these biblical figures as Drunks (Noah?), Adulterers (David), Incest (Lot), Pedophiles (Mary 12yrs and Joseph 90 yrs old), Jesus being beaten to a pulp and hung NAKED on a pole/tree...etc. THE QURAN is the Last and Final Testament of God to mankind and corrects all the corrupted made by men in the scriptures...

[@horseradishpower9947]

This is a good theory, but does not elaborate on the Aramaic that is clearly in the text. This theory feels like it needs to be fleshed out some more. But is a good theory.

[@OdonLafontaine]

Judeonazarenes spoke Aramaic, and their scriptures were in Hebraic or Aramaic Arabs had been christianized by the Aramaic Church So, Aramaic was in the air...

[@horseradishpower9947]

@@OdonLafontaine Your theory complements video 1.4 over on Thomas Alexander KZbin channel. Particularly the date for the core of the Koran. I have a feeling that the answer lies not with a single group or outlook, but on many elements and groups coming together. Please keep up the good work, this is fascinating information. Thank you for contributing this information, as well.

[@gebedzandvoort]

Odon, do you have 'material evidence' :-) of the existence of a Judeo-Nazarene Scripture?

[@OdonLafontaine]

No, no "material evidence". Only sources telling about it, like the Quranic text or ancient sources about the "Gospel of Ebionites"

[@gebedzandvoort]

​@@OdonLafontaine What is the relationship between the Ebonites and the Judeo Nazarenes according to you?

[@gebedzandvoort]

@@OdonLafontaine The Gospel of the Ebonites and not the Gospel of the Nazarenes?

[@OdonLafontaine]

@@gebedzandvoort they are the same, aren't they ?

[@OdonLafontaine]

@@gebedzandvoort Ebionites are a vast current from Antiquity. Scholars labelled many different groups as Ebionites The Judeonazarene label is much more precise and specific: they are the group described by the Quran From there, one could suppose that the Judeonazarenes did not come out of nowhere and that they were most presumably part of the Ebionite current.

[@franklinpanakkal97]

So where will Muhammad come in picture or some caliph who thoughts he is Muhammad and credit is given to him or he is revered as prophet for creating and compiling this book

[@OdonLafontaine]

The invention of the prophecy comes along with the invention of the concept of the "divine revelation" and the sacralization of the Quran.

[@khaledalothman4314]

Well this is more interesting than the previous videos. However, it would be great to support these steps with actual evidence; and I mean historical evidence and evidence from the islamic Quran. Here however it would be necessary to provide clear evidence not just biased interpretations that ignore context or cherry picks.

[@khaledalothman4314]

How did the Judeo Nazarenes write an Arabic quran so poetic and fluent? Or are you telling us the the arab preachers re-wrote everything and no traces of the jewish writings exist in the Quran? I think you are saying this has happened after the invasion of Jerusalem. And if so, how can you explain that we don't have anything left from the early arabic qurans (lectionaries) , written by the jews? How can you explain that the earliest manuscripts found today, which according to carbon dating go back to the first half of the 7th century, are 99% like the Quran we have today? Why can't we find any "notes", "arabic lectionaries" or non-islamic "Mushafs" instead of finding the same Quran over and over again? One work-in-progress arabic material that can be somehow correlated with the current Quran would be needed to prove your hypothesis. Why can't we find any hints of this process in the islamic tradition? Surely someone would have noticed proto Quran material and mentioned it in the tradition. Or are you one of those who think all the detailed hundreds of thousands of traditional narrations are inventions? Is there any evidence? Or are you merely trying to project the Christian evolutionary gospel creation onto Islamic history because Muslims seem to have a much stronger case for originality and preservation of their religious text?

[@OdonLafontaine]

Good and relevant questions, thank you. I think you haven't fully understood the hypothesis I presented, since your questions show some confusion. It mostly shows that the issue is complex, and that one gets easily confused and mix up the concepts of my hypothesis with the ones of the Islamic narrative hypothesis. I hope the following explanation will help. So let's be clear: we do not have the Arabic lectionary of the Judeonazarenes. We have the Islamic quran, which is not the Arabic lectionary of the Judeonazarenes that is mentioned in the quranic text. Besides, I do no think that the Judeonazarenes did directly write the quranic text (there might be some passages they could have written though, see below). But they surely had a strong influence on it The quranic text is made of different materials ; one just has to read it to see it, as I explained in the 1st video of this series : 1- notes and drafts for the preparation of proclamations 2- instructions for the proclamations (here, there might be some that was written at first in Arabic by the Judeonazarenes, but it could also have been written by the preacher like a kind of dictation) 3- reporting notes of the proclamations 4- other material: hymns, prayers, apocalypses (some of this could come from the Arabic lectionary) I think every text from the Quran can be labelled as belonging to one of these categories. The Arabic lectionary would have been a collection of translations into Arabic of the sacred texts of the Judeonazarenes (Torah, Prophets, Gospels, and maybe some "apocryphals", and also, maybe, hymns and prayers). We do not find those translations in the quranic text, but we find some proclamations that allude to them, like when the preacher introduces the stories of Joseph or Moses. As for the poetry, and the beauty of many passages of the quranic text, it can be easily explained by the talent of the preacher(s) (after all, those preachers were choosen and sent by the Judeonazarenes to do the job). It can also be explained by the tradition that existed before the proclamations: some of the quranic text is adapted from previous Arabic and (mostly I think) from Aramaic oral recitations and texts (hymns, prayers, apocalypses). Those previous recitations and texts had been made by skilled composers. And some of those recitations and text had been preached, recited and read by generations of pre-islamic believers (Christians or Judeonazarenes) who kept on improving them. Now, why don't we have some manuscripts of the Arabic lectionary? I think it is because of the breaking of the alliance between the Judeonazarenes and the Arabs who followed them: since the apocalyptic project in Jerusalem had failed, most of the Arabs that took Jerusalem came to consider the Judeonazarenes as traitors and liars (we have hint of this change in the relationship in the quranic text, seen my previous videos with Jay, or with Mel). So the Arabic lectionary must have been considered as a false book, and the copies were destroyed. The leaders of the Judeonazarenes were killed, the ones left in Jerusalem were expelled (every Jew was expelled), and all of them were vilified as we see in the quranic text with the nasara (they might be the ancestors of the Syrian Alawites). The preachers were also vilified, or at least ignored and disregarded. This, I think, explains the Islamic traditions about Muhammad dying in dishonour and the fact that no one speaks of him up until the end of the Ummayads. It might also explain the death of Umar. Then, some Arabs seemed to have kept faith that the Messiah would still come back in Jerusalem and that the apocalypse would start there (I think they were the actual "ahl al bayt", the "people of the Temple"). Maybe those Arabs could have kept the originals texts from the Judeonazarenes, but they were killed during the fitna (at least during the second one) and I do not see why their ennemies would have kept their texts. This is why we do not have the Arabic lectionary anymore, nor the sacred texts of the Judeonazarenes. Now, let's try to explain the making of the Quran. The Messiah did not come, but it do stop some Arabs (or "the Arabs") from believing into some of the teachings of the Judeonazarenes: - the idea that the end of times was imminent - the idea that God had chosen them to be his "caliphs" on earth, to be the "divine judges, juries and executionners" of the end of times, to be his divine warriors - the idea that they were different from the Jews (and from the failed Judeonazarenes) and from the Christians (even though they looked like Christians for everyone to see) The justification for those beliefs was written in the notes of the preachers. They quickly collected those notes, selected the ones that fitted their views and copied them unto dignified supports (manuscripts). There might have been several different collections made by the different Arab factions. Some factions might also have no collection, and no apocalyptical beliefs as they were in it only for the conquest or the bounty. The factions waged war against each other (the fitnas), they destroyed the manuscripts of their opponents, up until Abd al Malik. He was the first to unite the Arabs, and I think he was the first to make a collection of manuscripts for all the "believers" who formerly fought each other. He collected everything, and mixed the different collections. But still, it was not the Islamic quran because it was not considered as a divine revelation uttered by God's prophet. This happened afterwars with the Abbasids. So this is why we find very early manuscripts looking very much like the Islamic Quran - actually, this is not "99%" quranic material, but less than that (and we cannot be sure of the C14 datation - but it is not that important in my hypothesis). Besides, one must also bear in mind that with Abd al Malik and his successors, there was a centralized power that hunted its opponents, condemned "non orthodox" views and destroyed unwanted manuscripts. Which also helps to explain why every ancient quranic manuscripts collection looks so much like the Quran. I hope this will explain my hypothesis a little better. Feel very free to criticize it and ask every questions.

[@OdonLafontaine]

_Why can't we find any hints of this process in the islamic tradition?_ There are many: - the stories about the collection of makeshift supports (bones, bark, palms, etc) - the stories about the destruction of "non orthodox" collections and the making of the "orthodox" version - the different ancient manuscripts showing the evolution of the quranic text, its editing, its normalization - the fact that the Islamic narratives makes up stories to explain the quranic text, showing that the original meaning has been lost - the evolution of the nature of the relationship between the Judeonazarenes (nasara) and the believers as shown by the quranic text There are many more, but those came to my mind as I was answering your question. Besides, I don't that the traditional narrations are all inventions. Some clearly are, like the ones that were inventend to give an islamic meaning to the quranic text (like the stories told by Muhammad about Mary sister of Aaron), or the ones that justified the caliphs' power. But some do still feature parts of the actual historical truth. Which is why one cannot be "dogmatic" when dealing with sources. There are not "good sources" and "bad sources", everything has to be analyzed and critiqued with the same rigorous scientific method.

[@OdonLafontaine]

_are you merely trying to project the Christian evolutionary gospel creation onto Islamic history because Muslims seem to have a much stronger case for originality and preservation of their religious text?_ I do not oppose Christianity and Islam when I study history. My feelings, convictions, opinions have nothing to do with the facts, with logic, with reason. As long as I work on hypotheses that are built with rigor, with logic, with facts, based on the scientific method, my own feelings, convictions, opinions won't change a thing. Which is why I long for critic, for reviews that are also made according to facts, logic, reason and not on ideology or on moral grounds (which is why I like your questions, they are very precise, very facts based). Which is why I do not pretend to have "the truth" but only hypotheses that can (and must!) be critiqued, that could be corrected, changed or bettered should we find "new facts" (new archeological discoveries, new manuscripts, etc) or should logic and reason come to other conclusions. Besides, I also study the origins of Christianity and the making of the Gospels. I am part of a scholar organisation dedicated to this. We have made studies and discoveries that contradicts the mainstream Christian (western Christian) narrative, as well as the "Standard Academia Narrative" on early Christianity. The comparison with early Islam is then very interesting, very fruitful.

[@fantasia55]

The poetic passages of the Qur'an are Christian prayers and hymns.

[@khaledalothman4314]

@@OdonLafontaine thanks very much indeed for writing up a detailed response. I suppose you think the Quran is made up of notes, instructions, hymns and prayers because some passages seem strange or incoherent? Is there any other reason why you came to that conclusion? The reason I'm asking is because I feel that you're trying to explain the strange nature pf the Quran by hypothesizing a very complex evolutionary process, but this is very, very difficult to verify and it will remain a wild hypothesis until real evidence emerges. For example, is there evidence of an early alliance with Judeonazarenes and the breakage thereof other than the mentionings of the Nasara in the Quran? You mention that Muhammed's death was dishonorable in the Hadith, as evidence for vilification and thus loss of the lectionaries yet 95% of the Hadiths honor mohammad beyond being a mere preacher. How do you explain that in light of the hypothesis? You mentioned the Fitna wars as support for the hypothesis that early Arab factions tried to revive a second stage movement, and that the wars were the reason why the second stage manuscripts were also lost. What evidence or reasoning is behind the hypothesis of the intermediate movement/manuscript creation other than as an explanation of non existence of manuscripts? In all explanations you've given, I can spot a common theme: the explanations are interesting yet they are based on speculative ideas that serve to explain ambiguities of some Quranic expressions and inconsistencies, without any evidence except some seemingly supportive excerpts from the Islamic tradition, yet you try to disprove the very Islamic Standard Narative that you draw from. If you do that, and you do do that the same way Dan Gibson tried to prove Petra as the real Mecca, you should explain why none of the Islamic traditions mention earlier movements that were non-Islamic (i.e., seen as Christians) yet became Islamic, none of them explicitly mention the existence and the destruction of pre-quranic text (not merely the collection of the ayat of the Quran), and none mention the role of Abdul Malik as an opponent of "unorthodox" views and text? You seem to indicate that the traditions don't talk about these events but they talk about invented stories and events that have some parallels with your theory. Believe me anyone can find parallels from thousands of Islamic narrations for any theory no matter how wild it is if you do enough cherry picking and projection (think Dan Gibson and Petra). If you're answer is: everything was conspired, erased and rewritten in Islamic traditions as to not leave any explicit trace of the pre-islamic movement, and skillfully and painstakingly reshaped with different names, figures, stories, reports, exegesis, and history then you shouldn't use these sources as support for your hypothesis because we would never know which witch is which. Why would they rewrite so much to erase traces but keep parallels to real history? Why not just invent everything, then crush and subdue everything else since they can anyway? All this doesn't make sense.

[@SHA.P.S]

Hi my god, is there any archeological backups, and asking this will only boosts you, don't jump to conclusions.

[@OdonLafontaine]

There is no "archeology" about the Quran. There is palaeography and codicology.

[@SHA.P.S]

@@OdonLafontaine well, dose mohmadisim people accept these evidence or will they just be as usual who they are.

[@SHA.P.S]

@@OdonLafontaine it's too depressing that they use arabic words Islam and Muslims in themselves. Hope this will create no new headaches how about calling Muhamed followers as muhamedhism-ins/ians .... .

[@bobgriffin316]

It would be good to have the evidence for what Odon is saying here. Is there evidence or not? Is it just a theory? I don't know. I would like to know. Jay usually backs up everything he says by giving evidence for it. Best wishes.

[@OdonLafontaine]

Most of the evidence is in the quranic text itself. Look for all the videos I did with Jay and Mel

[@sidprice6214]

Odon said that the evidence is in the Quran. If you read the Quran on these matters the only evidence you will find is evidence that contradicts Odon's BS.

[@MrDrbld]

@@sidprice6214 He doesn't necessarilly have a Bachelor of Science (BSC, BSci, BHum, etc) . He is more likely positioned for at least MA to PhD level. Hope this helps.

[@sidprice6214]

@@MrDrbld Are you referring to Odon or Bob?

[@aemiliadelroba4022]

Quran is more complex than just a lectionary! It address events happening in time of Muhammad and still remains the same style as a standard narrative lectionary. Style is harmonious , it could not have been produced by just lecturing style . Was it put together by Muhammad or others ? That’s the question .

[@justaminute3111]

The Koran is not harmonious. Or intelligible. Did you listen to this presentation? The hypothesis is that it was originally a lectionary plus other notes. Then it was changed by the first Islamists into the Koran. While I don’t think this is the entire story, it sounds like a good hypothesis.

[@Xcerptshow]

This video should have been an hour or more. He proposes a lot of stuff he doesnt back up. He uses 3 extremely vague dates(640-mayyads, 7th, 8th) and 1 historical event(taking of Jerusalem). He also claims that this apocalyptic cult was just forgotten about in 20 years. I can think of at least 3 apocalyptic groups in my life time that are at least 20 years old. People dont forget failed religious predictions. 7th Day Adventist they just evolved through the failure. 3:20 Also, he doesnt give a date range for panel 1. When did the Juedeos start their teachings? How long was this cult spreading? 8:10 He said back at 3:20 the Messiah would return after they took Jerusalem AND the temple was rebuilt. Did I miss a period in history post-600 where the temple was rebuilt? If the temple wasnt rebuilt how then were they proven wrong? Until he makes a comprehensive timeline this is not useful.

[@azedinebenammar4339]

So according to Odon, it took about 150 years ( step1 to step 6) to come out with the final Cor'an edition. Compared to his speculations( nothing more than that) the Muslim narrative gives only 22 years( less than a generation time span) to end up with one coranic version. The question that arises: how come in all this 150 years time span he ended up with only one book ? After all, to this day we still have many Bible writings!

[@gavinjames1145]

Which Muslim narrative are you reading?! The Standard Islamic Narrative says that Muhammad was given revelations from c.610-32CE (22 years), that Abu Bakr ordered Zayd Bin Thabit to compile a Quran in book form because memorisers were dying in battle (+2=24 years), that Zayd's Quran was kept under Hafsa's bed for twenty years before Uthman ordered Zayd and three other scribes to write an authorized Quran because of variant readings and to destroy all other Qurans afterwards (+20=44 years), but within a few years people wrote their own local Qurans which contained variations in spellings, words and verses (some having only 111 suras, others as many as 116 suras!). We now know that there are at least 37 Arabic Qurans (despite the Standard Islamic Narrative telling us that by 950CE the various schools of reciters produced only ten Qira'at!). Ever since that time there have been attempts to standardise the Quran, resulting in the Cairo edition of 1924, which 90% of the Muslim world accepts as the only Quran since Saudi Arabia declared it so in 1985! So, it took 1375 years to finalise the Quran, and there are at least 37 variant Arabic editions available today.

[@urbandsouza7279]

@@gavinjames1145 🤣

[@alonzoharris6730]

@@gavinjames1145 What is your source for 37 Qurans? Hatun?🤣 What is the difference between tje 1924 mushaf and the 1923 mushaf?

[@gavinjames1145]

@@alonzoharris6730 You know very well that there are ten Qira'at, Quran editions which have variations in spellings, wordings, phraseology, etc; although all Qurans these days have 114 chapters. However, there are far more Quran editions/variants available to purchase from Arabic bookshops: I bought Hafs and Warsh Qurans from a shop in Jordan (Dar Alfiker, online), and I can tell you they had many more than just ten Qira'at Qurans! There was no single 1923 mushaf: there were many variants or Qira'at Qurans. That's why the 1924 Cairo edition was published; to create a Standardised Quran.

[@alonzoharris6730]

@@gavinjames1145 What is the definition of the Quran?

[@visualeffects3965]

Please be safe.. because the name holders of peace may feel bad after seeing the reality of what they read.. and they may bother you..