583: One Black Family’s Story about Poverty, Racism, & Grace with Esau McCaulley

[@Wren_Farthing]

What Esau said toward the end about the willingness to “suffer alongside” our brothers and sisters in Christ really resonated with me. If that were the key operating conviction in the church, it seems likely that congregations would diversify organically. What a powerful testimony that would be to the world. Let’s do it!

[@missrobin2088]

Amen!

[@tnfitzhugh4905]

Absolutely!

[@MamaShawnyD]

My prayer this morning was that I not be so self-preserving in my responses to people and to prefer others above my self, and then I listened to this podcast and felt heard by God and convicted to tears by the story on women and wisdom. I usually listen at work and brought up the podcast yesterday but didn't have time to listen then. I needed to hear it today. Thank you.

[@lbamusic]

A thoughtful and insightful interview of McCaulley and his book. He is spot-on in his memoir and insights on Christianity, parenting, racism and much more. My added view is, that as a Black Believer I have clung to Matt. 7: 21-23, to make sense of the 'many' Evangelicals that have sold their souls to dt, primarily because of his racial antipathy to others. Jesus makes it clear that 'many' are serving 'a different jesus' and are unknown to Him, the real Jesus. This also applies to the slave-owning 'christians' in our past history, the segregattionist 'christians, and all other perversions of Christianity as practiced daily right now. Many are serving a different 'jesus' from the one Im serving, and knowing this keep me from desparing about the Faith and Salvation mercifully given to me by my Eternal God.

[@enochserumaga1546]

Thanks for sharing. Your podcast has helped me understand Christianity in the American context. I moved to the USA 11 years ago. Am a pentecostal christian preached to by American missionaries. I love the Lord. However, when i moved here, it baffled me with how chrianity is practiced here. I was taught and believed Love is the conerstone to christian faith. However the experience where you enter into a white church and the ushers direct you to a black church or witnessing the hatred towards the 34th president by evangelicals, the point at which the church is willing to look away and embrace immorality. Those who confess chrianity disregarding those in need; Contrary to the scripture. The death of George Floyd was the last straw when it all seemed to me like the church wasn't concerned about what happens to a person of color. I was angry, very disappointed but because of you, i now understand more and am able to navigate my way. Be blessed

[@patrickc3419]

Point number one, any church that would exclude you or any other person solely because of the amount of melanin levels is not a church; it is a racist social club that happens to meet on Sundays. You need to identify this church or churches by name that you speak of, so they can be biblically rebuked and called to repentance. As far as George Floyd, I can’t speak to him or to local churches In Minneapolis, but I can assure you that when 10 people were slaughtered by an evil, racist maniac at a Tops supermarket up here in Buffalo, the worst mass killing in upstate New York’s history, my own small, imperfect church led the charge to minister to this hurting, grieving neighborhood not by race baiting but by giving the gospel, providing any immediate needs and leading a local free BBQ lunch/fun day for them at least twice a year, since this happened in May of 2022. Genesis 50:20.

[@makejesusgreatagain7220]

​​@@patrickc3419calling out systemic racism isn't "race baiting". It's a continuation of the same sort of speaking truth to power that was very common in the prophetic books of Scripture. Ministry to those in need is great, but it's not an either/or situation. Both can and should be done.

[@patrickc3419]

⁠@@makejesusgreatagain7220 My response would be this; We need to yes, definitely learn from past very wicked things that happened (slavery, things like that. Both in schools as well as even in churches). And frankly this may surprise you, but even I disavow and truly desire that my fellow Reformed conservatives would also disavow Jonathan Edwards & George Whitfield. A person can’t have brilliant, solid theology (as they did) but continually live in sin (as they did). Now, with all that said, there’s nothing wrong, insensitive, etc. with saying that we need to live where we are at. And what I mean by that is this: Listening to some people (and I stress SOME people) you would think it is the 1930s. Or the 1830s! Any African American here in America, regardless of here in upstate New York, or wherever you are, is far more blessed here, as opposed to say, South Sudan or Somalia.

[@makejesusgreatagain7220]

​@@patrickc3419I believe you and it's good that you are willing to disavow people, even if you may agree with some of the things that they have said. In fact, I highly doubt there is any past or present theologian in the Christian tradition that you couldn't find SOMETHING that you agree with them on. I have plenty of criticisms that I can make about the American church and America more broadly, but I'm under no delusion that we're the worst country in the world. I recognize that in some ways, we're better than many others. My issue is when people (usually conservatives) focus so much on defending America and/or the American church that they seem to imply that there's no need for improvement. Even if America was the best country in the world (which we're not by very many metrics), that wouldn't mean that we can't improve. We can, and we should.

[@dave-giveusfree-evans1068]

Thats so white of you to determine whats best for 'any' person. Your thoughts remind us that we don't have to look so far back in history to find active racism. Not even as far back as redlining or the need for voting rights. Its a 'today' problem. Its here, where we are.@@patrickc3419

[@lisaalexander9110]

Esau just articulated so well what I have been struggling with. This interview was truly beautiful for me. I will definitely purchasing this book today!!

[@krisschmucker3668]

So good! I love what Esau articulated about ordinary dads, ending your past, and using what we learn from stories to chart a better future. I always listen carefully when Esau is your guest. He is one of my favorites.

[@Babyshoes777]

When y’all were discussing, if the three women’s Jewishness played any significant role, y’all came at it from such an interesting vantage point. Y’all kept highlighting, how this must be the Holy Spirit, and y’all’s lens was heavy on there salvation. My immediate thought about “ does their Jewishness play into this, or does their womaness play into this”, was from their vantage point. These are deeply marginalized women. Notice how she said, “ when you look inward, all you find is chaos”. White supremacy has done that to me as a black woman. It makes you make yourself small, it makes you hate yourself, you have to fight memories/experiences of injustice that remind that you are less than. If they battled these thoughts and feelings then their being Jewish is speaking about what they were experiencing, and what there world view probably was. They didn’t have the lens of a white American man looking around and saying, I really need to see people. But can only see people from the top looking down. Their reliance on the Holy Spirit was easier because of their position in Life. What does picking up your cross look like for black women? What did it look like for a Jewish woman is Nazi Germany?

[@leannereed2790]

Christian just punched me in the gut her synopsis of how we can better love those closest to us! Wow!! I feel like I do a good job seeing strangers; but I am falling short at home. Thank you girl!! 💖

[@missrobin2088]

Same - I fall so short.

[@ChristianTaylorVO]

Me too :)

[@ChristianTaylorVO]

Me too :)

[@Jaygar9392]

The interview with Esau was sooo good.

[@MRB-19]

Speaking of David Brook's article, I was directly put in mind of Hagar in Gen. 16v13 (depending on the notes in the translation) "Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, 'Have I also here seen Him who sees me?' ”

[@T-41]

Esau McCaulley- very impressive! Thanks for this.

[@Jaygar9392]

1:14:31 I have been feeling this as a Latino in white evangelical spaces.

[@Markephillips77]

My wife asked me how often I think about the Roman Empire. My answer: “Well, considering the book series I’m reading right now is based in the Roman Empire…” The series: the Last Disciple series. Outside of that, I don’t think of the Roman Empire often at all.

[@commentmag]

Thanks for a great discussion, friends!

[@makejesusgreatagain7220]

To me, when it comes to individuals from every people group, "personal responsibility" vs "systemic issues" is a false dichotomy. Every individual is responsible to do the best they can to live a good life, improve their circumstances, and do the best they can with what they were given. This is where personal responsibility comes in. However, not all personal responsibility is created equally. Some are only responsible for themselves. Others are also responsible to people they've taken on the responsibility for, such as a spouse and/or children, or others in their care. Others, who have greater and widespread societal impact, are personally responsible for how they use the power that they have. Politicians are responsible for serving their constituents. Billionaires are responsible for how their businesses or investments affect people. Some people's personal responsibility are far more important than others. Some only affect themselves or a few additional people. Some affect millions or even billions.

[@ssteeds7194]

Esau, I wish someone like you were there on campus 30 years ago when I struggled with my identity in a confusing post civil rights, white-dominant-evangelical, politically problematic and strange Christian microcosm.

[@2serve4Christ]

"It is not our business to become involved in #slavery. Those are #social issues. We have been called to #preach the #gospel. We must deliver the Word. We must save people's #souls. We must not get involved in the issues of liberating people from the chains of slavery. If they accept #Jesus #Christ as their Savior, by and by they will be free - over there." - Tom Skinner quoting "the [strangely #silent ] #evangelical, Bible-believing, #fundamental, #orthodox, #conservative church" (from keynote address at #InterVarsity #Christian Fellowship's 1970 Urbana Conference) 🛐✝

[@ValerieAlford]

I’m sold! I’ll be buying the book today😎👍🏽

[@nealdavis7276]

The story Phil cited from last year about the campsite…he got a detail wrong. That story wasn’t a bear. It was a pig.

[@CTCTraining1]

12:08 from memory the vomitorium was an exit from a building or stadium ... so fairly regularly Phil.

[@jasonmccrory]

I don't even think about Rome while reading Romans 😅

[@davistrainingconsultantsll3866]

Dr. Iain McGilchrist and his 10-year research and work gives some additional insights into David Brooks's article 16:58. I believe that his work can add some much needed clarity arround the wisdom conversation. I highly recommend reading two of his works; "The Master and His Emissary - The Divided Brain and the Making of the Western World", and "The Matter With Things - Our Brains, Our Delusions and the Unmaking of the World".

[@adamrshields]

How Far to the promised land is such a good book.

[@lbamusic]

...regarding the selflessness and sacrifice of the 3 women - Eternal God knows who, what, where, when, why and how, for every deed and for every person attached to that deed, whether it is good or evil. Rev. 20: 12 -15.

[@liav4102]

Why would thinking about Ancient Rome be any stranger than like WW2? Lots of strategy video games have Roman content, plus the whole stoicism movement Ryan Holiday and all them are always going on about Marcus Aurelius, so Ancient Rome content probably gets recommended to a bunch of guys. Heck there’s all those ones who use marble busts as their profile pic. There are so many triggers that would point to thinking about Ancient Rome

[@complexmindsimpleman6642]

What demographic of men did they survey? Because it never comes up in my mind, ever

[@MythicVoice]

I was gonna ask the same thing.

[@veggiet2009]

One tiktok I watched specified straight men. One popular tiktoker answered that he didn't just think about Rome specifically, but empires in general

[@Babyshoes777]

@@MythicVoicenot a one black man thinks about it 😂, the challenge should be prefaced with ask an “American White Man”

[@ZipplyZane]

It's Tiktok, and the meme is about asking your boyfriend, so I'd expect young white straight men.

[@veggiet2009]

@@ZipplyZane 🤣

[@shanewilson2484]

I think about Ancient Rome every day, especially if you include the East Roman empire that was finally snuffed out in the 1400s.

[@grjoseph]

If you yearn for a strongman type leader I.e an autocrat, the Roman Emperor is the perfect model!

[@profchrisheard]

18:24 I don't know about the others, but for Simone, Weil is pronounced like “Vay.”

[@missrobin2088]

Fantastic interview. I'll be getting the book!

[@RBlackwelder82]

Why think about ancient Rome when you can think about occupied ancient Judea and Galilee?

[@tyron302]

I wonder how people's preponderance in Rome aligns politically, or by ethnicity🤔

[@chuckthompson5724]

In scripture wisdom is consistently portrayed as a female or in feminine adjectives.

[@ec-bi2ok]

The sound seems a little off today. Phil is really quiet and Christian's microphone is really loud

[@user-tr8wm5eh3t]

What about the women who think about ancient civilizations frequently? Asking for a friend.

[@Jaygar9392]

1:19:33 👏

[@vickyclinkscales4646]

LOVE this podcast (every episode)!! And Skye, I shared your sentiment about this book. Your intro. had me nodding through your comments!

[@debracrockett5386]

Excellent, insightful interview!

[@daviddufty9759]

I was doing an animation where the Devil presents Jesus with "All the kingdoms of the world" while tempting him on a high mountain. The first kingdom I thought of was "Ancient Rome" - so I guess I think about Ancient Rome.

[@raspberryblue01]

Hmmm...now I'm really curious about one of my friends. He did name his dog Apollo, so there's that. 🤔

[@thetruest7497]

Its okay Christian we cant choose where we're from. My family's from MS too. We used to travel down to Tupelo every year to visit my great grand parents. As for Esau... my issue with "the black church" and political stances is they try to hard to both sides topics or always seem unsophisticated in their assessment. When you choose to be somewhere between "Liberal and Conservative" thats between conservative and conservative. I need to see the black church understanding that proressive is the only option. Things like abolition, integration, etc were progressive for their era. A Liberal would be Biden, who voted with conservatives for segregation but probably wasnt okay with police brutality to enforce it. We need to start understanding the difference in the terms and how they are realized in real life.

[@josephgreer8819]

Tripod was em-bear-assed. So it probably involved a donkey too.

[@lbamusic]

Lol...could the marauding bear, Tripod, not have been a female rather than a male?

[@tdr.220]

There is no "Black American " experience. There isn't a monolith. This man's story is solely his own.