Picard: Why Use Discovery Ships?

Star Trek: Picard takes place some 140 years after Star Trek: Discovery. Yet, literally all the technology is the same. Why is this? And is there a solution?
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/ echenry

[@BradFoust1826]

They worked themselves into a corner with the fact that the Discovery designs really fit more in the late 24 century and not the mid 23.

[@suranae]

Discovery also leans heavily into Kelvin Universe design theory instead of revamped TOS based on Enterprise.

[@johnbockelie3899]

Actually, Discovery and it's ships were from the 32nd century, we're they got sent to. The show had fans think they were a few years ahead of the Kirk era. They were from the 32nd century to start from. They were merely spies from the future.( that's why the Disco ships and stuff never fit in to that time period.)

[@subraxas]

@@johnbockelie3899 :-D :-D :-D

[@griffca4814]

"it's easy to explain" Yes, they don't want to make new CG models

[@subraxas]

But then again, why did they have in those scenes from Mars the brand-new McCall-type shuttle? This looks much more like miscommunication.

[@A88mph]

"You see, they just...didn't...care." -MST3K

[@therexbellator]

"Just repeat to yourself it's just a show. I should really just relax." -MST3K

[@katherineberger6329]

And why were they still using hundred-year-old Miranda-class starships and 80-year-old Excelsior-class starships in TNG? The answer is the same: Because developing new assets costs a lot of time, effort, and money to get "just right" and sometimes getting the story written and produced is more important than developing the new asset. And because those new assets had just been developed immediately prior (the Miranda was an expensive model built only 5 years before TNG started filming; the Excelsior only 3 years), and from a production standpoint were brand-new.

[@smartroadbiker]

@@katherineberger6329 I'd argue though these days implementing a new design is much easier. Back then it was a full physical model which takes time to build and probably cost a fortune if you wanted it to look good. Today, as said in the video, a few hours is all that is needed to get a new ship designed to an acceptable quality for a background ship and maybe a few days if you wanted something that had to stand up to a bit more scrutiny on screen a bit longer.

[@katherineberger6329]

smartroadbiker Physical implementation has never been the expensive part of starship design. Back in the day, most background starships were kitbashed with model kit parts and marker pens.

[@garrettkajmowicz]

@@katherineberger6329 If you consider that car makes/models get redesigned roughly every 5 years and last about 15 years whereas something like the US Nimitz-class aircraft carrier was in production for 25 years and are expected to be in service for 50+ years, it makes a lot of sense that starships and classes thereof would remain in service for a long time. This is especially true of a ship design which turned out to work especially well.

[@dyne313]

"It sounds like laziness" WE HAVE A WINNER!

[@gchung2700]

Budget, budget, budget.

[@thedeathkeeper23]

it is laziness and cut the cost

[@marcozolo3536]

@@gchung2700 bs, bs, bs

[@Rune3D]

I especially love the last episode where they reuse the exact same ship model for the Federation Fleet. I don't know if it's because of time or budget, but it's still *very* lazy.

[@subraxas]

But then again, why did they have in those scenes from Mars the brand-new McCall-type shuttle? This looks much more like miscommunication to me.

[@Smilingotter]

Don't sell yourself short - I like your shuttle design.

[@aaahawk767]

I agree, I think that would be a awesome new shuttle for the Trek!

[@pwnmeisterage]

We already have _The Orville_ but maybe there's room for this style of shuttle in _The Henry_

[@kobayashimaru8114]

@@aaahawk767 I like it too. It looks like my mouse

[@chuckintexas]

Me too. It looks more like a period-placed Family Toyota Corrolla than a public Taxi, but it looks ok. So _DO_ the shuttles THEY use - and truthfully THEIRS look more like what you'd see in a public conveyance than yours does anyway. Yours is FINE for maybe a family runabout, but theirs seem more FUNCTIONAL in appearance for the use being pictured.

[@aetherial87]

The fact that you whipped up an EPIC shuttle design so quick is scary and why the hell aren't they hiring you? Haha

[@namelesske]

That shuttle is the VW Beetle of the federation.

[@joshuanishanthchristian5217]

That's actually really Good. And heck, once the old one goes out of production, just replace it with a similar looking one that is brand new.

[@JetScreamer_YT]

The VW Bug got a refresh after a few decades. They were basic no frills. I loved mine though.

[@JonatasAdoM]

@@JetScreamer_YT You'll still find them around. VW even tries to replicate the success with modern versions of it.

[@JetScreamer_YT]

@@JonatasAdoM that's a refresh I was talking about. But they did discontinued them again this year. I always thought people reintroduce things because they had no imagination left. But my nitpick shouldn't hinder your enjoyment of the television show.

[@Tommy-pv1vh]

The only thing a old vw beetle that cant be gotten new today is the vin

[@MillywiggZ]

Someone should inform the writers that post Dominion War they have ships like the Defiant and an over-clocked Voyager to base their designs on.

[@rolandogamez]

Pretty much accurate Mike, but Galaxy class had a life expectancies of 80 years

[@TwoStageTrigger]

Riker should be in command of the enterprise right now. The 3 nacelle galaxy class with a big canon under the saucer section. The writers don't know star trek or there wouldn't have been any F-bombs, and no one would be smoking or vaping.

[@MillywiggZ]

TwoStage 45: Oh yeah, completely forgot about that.

[@pwnmeisterage]

@@TwoStageTrigger I agree with what you're saying, in essence. Although I never liked Riker. And Picard blew up the Enterprise-D in his first Star Trek movie. So it won't be getting a refit, lol. While a third nacelle bolted onto Sovereign-class Enterprise-E would look utterly ridiculous.

[@Bitchslapper316]

@@TwoStageTrigger I hope we get a 3 nacelle enterprise-E commanded by Worf with a massive defiant style phase cannon.

[@MrMenmoth]

Can I have your shuttlecraft design as a mouse? It looks comfy as hell to hold.

[@EVAUnit4A]

I want Eaglemoss to start making die-cast replicas of some of ECH's original ships.

[@sabinor2560]

Just buy the apple Magic Mouse

[@ratbat1072]

It looks too flat to hold

[@duramirez]

3d print that :P

[@Rudofaux]

@@sabinor2560 If only Apple's mouse was designed for human hands. Apple's philosophy is form over function after all.

[@Olip87]

Imagine being in the krigsmarine on a destroyer in ww2 then the British just rock up in the HMS Victory and gank you.

[@astrotrek3534]

While not possible with the current HMS Victory (she's in permanent drydock due to her age) the USS Constitution is still afloat and in service in the US Navy, albeit only for educational reasons. Still it's possible for the USS Constitution to be used against in enemy in war more than 200 years after she was built.

[@keirfarnum6811]

“Hoist sail!” 😂

[@ReginaldBarclay-q2b]

An sto player i see. Pvp?

[@mattheweppley]

I wholeheartedly agree with you, my man! This isn't just some random sci-fi series, this is Star Trek. There MUST be some degree of consistency among the different eras and series. It's mind-blowing why they don't use some degree of coordination and respect the lore and the fanbase. It's absolutely lazy and sloppy. We notice the details and we care a lot.

[@Brendissimo1]

They didn't care and thought no one would notice.

[@nickboylen6873]

Exactly. They’re more interested in projecting their own politics onto the audience than thinking about satisfying the audience.

[@mbearlover]

Brendissimo I didn’t notice, if it weren’t for EC Henry I wouldn’t even know.

[@pwnmeisterage]

@@mbearloverI didn't watch enough STD to recognize the origin of these shuttles. I only wondered why they looked dumber and clunkier than all the streamlined speedboat shuttles and runabouts and flyers shown in TNG, DS9, and VOY.

[@garrettkajmowicz]

@@pwnmeisterage It's funny because when I saw them in Disco I thought they looked post-period to some of the TNG shuttles.

[@katakisLives]

i think a lot of people won't notice, most people don't watch video's breaking down every aspect of star trek

[@zaccool9]

The only time I find the discovery era shuttle in Picard acceptable is as a taxi

[@BigWillyG1000]

And that could easily be explained as either Star Fleet cheap surplus much like the WWII er C-47s still flying as freight planes today or some kind of tradition like the 1930s looking checker cabs used in NYC until the 1990s or the hackneys still used in London.

[@sojourner.]

@@BigWillyG1000 Yep! The taxi idea is actually really neat, like OP said, very acceptable. But... eh... its other uses are less so.

[@ericstockham7009]

That makes sense. It is like police agencies selling of their fleets of retired crown vics to corporations.

[@pwnmeisterage]

Who takes a taxi when transporters are faster, "statistically the safest way to travel", and can do site-to-site from anywhere to anywhere on a planetary surface or in orbit?

[@OllamhDrab]

@@pwnmeisterage I'd assume taxis, buses, and 'trains' are still more efficient in time and energy for shorter trips and point to point stuff. Easy to see preset transporter arches arriving at the same spot, but absolutely everyone in a part of town waiting in line at one to set destinations might be quite a bottleneck.

[@frankwittner1979]

Maybe it’s the “I don’t give a crap virus” because the guys over at Disney Star Wars (slap a Death Star gun on a star destroyer and call it a new ship) caught the same thing

[@andrewm3210]

Nailed it.

[@JonatasAdoM]

You find that weird? I saw a concept of a corellean Corvette/tantive IV mixed with the rebel transport ship.

[@MikhaelAhava]

Seems fine, the Clone Wars Venator class had something similar.

[@mr_h831]

frank wittner seeeeemmms so. Seeeeeeems so.

[@morganwardfilm]

Both produced by JJ Abrams. Hes a cancer on creativity

[@lorcan0c]

Sad to see that both Star Wars and Star Trek have opted for the lazy "re-use our existing CG assets" approach to Starships lately, rather than going the extra mile. I mean... c'mon, space travel is kinda hugely important to both of these franchises, so why half-ass the starships?

[@DarkStarRequiem]

Star Wars at least has the excuse of Technological stagnation. The Galaxy only recently started building 'new' ships. For thousands of years, it was stagnant, old designs used over and over again.

[@DukeOfChirk]

Simple answer - not enough sci-fi fans involved in production.

[@JonatasAdoM]

@@DarkStarRequiem The republic designs rocks though

[@JonatasAdoM]

There isn't even much of a war in the stars going on for Star Wars as of lately.

[@Tar-Numendil]

@@DarkStarRequiem It wasn't so much that designs were constantly being reused, the Imperial class is a new design over the Victory and Venator classes. The problem is that these ships didn't advance very much. The Imperial class is just as fast as a Venator class, despite being 3 or 4 years newer and still being in service 20 to 25 years after the Venator was retired. Star Wars also kind of screwed itself over with it's hyperdrive rating system. The lower the class the faster it is, so class 0.1 or 0.0 is the theoretical maximum achievable speed in Star Wars. Most military ships during the Galactic Civil War had a class 1.5 or class 1 hyperdrive. They don't get much faster than that. And (at least in Legends) hyperdrive technology has been widespread for at least 20,000 years.

[@Tyrannicus]

Here’s a video idea - in FC, Picard says the Federation has over 150 member worlds. You should see how many races we can determine, from obvious ones like Vulcans, Andorians, and Tellarites, to those brought in during the shows, to the background members in the movies like Zaranites, Arcturians and Betelgeusians. I think it’s also safe to assume that pretty much any species in Starfleet prior to FC was a Federation member. There’s also some we can reasonably infer like Denobulans.

[@AnakinSkyobiliviator]

Trekkie: frowns upon reused asset Me, a Star Wars-r: "Oh! Welcome to the club! Grab a drink and take a seat, we have lots to talk about"

[@tibfulv]

Ain't that the truth, lol.

[@c-21highsinger81]

Lets not talk about the Xyston-class Star Destroyer

[@MarekCabak]

It's not like Star Trek woudln't do this before. Klingon D7 Cruisers and K'Tinga class were basicaly same model (although that was becasue of budget and real models). same goed for Romulan D7s, and that was also just the same model with Romulan colors, BECAUSE of budget, but that agian, budgetary constrains probably aren't really a thing in Picards CGI department.

[@kuribayashi84]

Not nearly that big of a problem with SW, as there are only a few decades between trilogies. If we consider DISC canon for just one moment, there are 140 Years between that show and "Picard". Granted, Trek had a history of presenting long-lived Ship-Classes (Miranda, Excelsior, D7/K'tinga), but the problem with using Ships from DISC is that they never showed up in *any* of the intervening Series.

[@KamepinUA]

FUCK XYSTON

[@lykeromeo3213]

The B-52 will be almost 100 years old when its service life is done. The mothership from CLOSE ENCOUNTERS was described as being old and dirty in the book. Advanced technology will certainly be of a similary advanced age to justify the astronomical cost of its construction.

[@ammosophobia]

"Jim, the Enterprise is *20 years* old, we feel her day is done"

[@lukasperuzovic1429]

Thats actually ridiculous if you look at the real world military, when we still have ships and aircraft from the 40s and 50s still in service.

[@ammosophobia]

@@lukasperuzovic1429 ::Double Facepalm:: Quotation noun 1. a group of words taken from a text or speech and repeated by someone other than the original author or speaker. _"a quotation from Fleet Admiral Morrow"_

[@lukasperuzovic1429]

@@ammosophobiaDon't care about your grammar lessons

[@hckytwn3192]

Lukas Peruzovic wow you are dense.

[@lukasperuzovic1429]

Look in a mirror much?

[@wolfman7284]

That opening scene EC Henry just played... It looks like Patrick Stewart forgot to change from his street clothes before filming. In the past TNG civilian clothes looked more futuristic so it didn't look like a modern day wardrobe.

[@DimoB8]

Picard is generally Old fashioned , even in TNG.

[@gloriousginger]

Professor X with legs.

[@Ammoniumbicarbonat]

Well it's fitting that he doesn't dress like Picard should because he doesn't act like Picard should either. I'd hardly think it's supposed to be the same character.

[@farquoi]

The way VFX works, the VFX company makes the shots and delivers the 2d imagery, but they do not give the 3D assets to the clients. They may even own the some of the derivative designs. It's a huge mess, but that's how ILM, for example, makes sure you don't make them do models and then later make more shots with their assets without paying them.

[@craigtowse4340]

Exactly. Hence why you never see a Sovereign class in DS9 and probably never again in any other Trek :(

[@LegoLazze]

basically, copy right laws are f***ed and stupid

[@gabrielalejandropandiellar8746]

There's a better explanation on why Discovery Era ships/designs are in ST-P: Alex Kurtzman and his company refuses to pay the licensing fee for Actual ST- TNG assets. Not Only that, ST-P is on the tight rope since Michael Chabon left the series due to disagreements with Kurtzman.

[@ah7910]

I agree Gabriel. I would even say I sense a little bit of pettiness from Kurtzman. I wonder if it’s this kind of disrespect and ego-driven decision making from Alex that caused Michael to leave as show-runner.

[@eskiltester3913]

Wrong. This is 100% canon and in prime timeline. They showed the enterprise and original uniforms but also these uniforms and commbadges are shown in DS9 worn by future Bashir and Jake.

[@spamviking]

ST:P is lazy for re-using century old ship designs! TNG, DS9, VOY,: *Sweats in Miranda Class*

[@EVAUnit4A]

*Excelsior Class has entered the chat*

[@Skippy2k81]

That's true but in those cases they were ships consistently seen still in service, the shuttles jump all of those eras over to Picard which seems odd. Obviously they didn't exist but even using them if there was more of a mix along side some established looking one's or the future shuttles like we saw from Voyager's future would have been nice to not be only these. I think the complete reuse of those assets was the down side for me too. Not stressing too much on it one episode in but still I agree with the points in the video.

[@tawabunny]

Commonality of a problem is not an excuse to have the problem still. "Other Trek series did it" is not, and will never be a valid argument. A problem is still a fucking problem.

[@seekertwo1]

But the technology gap is greater between DISCO and ST-P. It's more like having TNG use NX-01 shuttlepods.

[@EvanG529]

At least they were consistent. There's a huge gap here.

[@autocon2002]

My headcanon for the disco era ships in drydock was that they're retired, decomissioned ships (or even museum pieces) being disassembled for parts or overhauled to act as extra transports to save the Romulans. Being the single largest undertaking of the Federation, you'd think they'd pull literally everything potentially spaceworthy out of mothballs in addition to rush-building enough modular cargo ships to CREATE A VISIBLE RING AROUND MARS FROM THEIR SHEER NUMBERS IN ORBIT.

[@lukearoo]

The synths stole all the good shuttles and they had to empty out the museums

[@williammagoffin9324]

Exactly this. A lot of the Federation's industry might have been heavily automated so when the Synths rebelled they might have captured that or destroyed it. I fee that the Synths and AI, in general, was always behind the scenes making planets like Earth a paradise. The gears of that paradise are now broken. As a result, the Federation is now scraping anything up from the surplus yards to fill in the gaps. There aren't new shuttles because those factories are now craters, all the more modern shuttles are now on the front lines where they are needed. When you have a civilization where no one will starve or go without clothes or food how do you show society is suffering? It's stuck using what is old.

[@Maul555]

@@williammagoffin9324 damn that's a good explanation...

[@gatedude07]

@@williammagoffin9324 Ah crap, that means even the Federation has to resort to at least some of the strategies of The Imperium of Man!

[@Johnlanzer]

Excuse me for asking but, who are the synths in regards to Star Trek? And what happened?

[@kereminde]

This? This is what happens when you don't plan out for the Contingency crisis.

[@augurseer]

The Picard short is actually made by same VFX team and was filmed in Toronto. It is a Discovery asset. Picard itself had new Romulan designs and synthetic ship designs.

[@JHorsti]

One simple answer to all of this: Because the producers simply DON'T CARE.

[@DruidicRifleman]

They do "Care" They care about making money. If they use TNG assets they don't make money. because the Discovery verse Content and TNG content are owned by two different companies and the company making Discovery doesn't make money from TNG content merch. Sooo retconning it makes them money.

[@DrewLSsix]

@@DruidicRifleman what other company? Star trek is owned by CBS, Picard is made by CBS and so is DSC. So it TNG and the entire rest of the franchise, especially now that the Paramount/CBS merger is finished as of last month one company owns every single asset that has ever been used on TV or film.

[@ZeroB4NG]

@@DrewLSsix also after the CBS Viacom merger the Star Trek rights are under one roof again, the timing just didn't play out in Picards favor and it is still operating under the same "25% different" deal they had with Discovery.

[@Robobagpiper]

There are two more companies involved here people keep forgetting about: Bad Robot and Secret Hideout. The licensing deal goes through them because of their non-compete clause with the original Paramount deal. Contracts don't disappear just because two of the four parties merge.

[@ft4709]

ZeroB4NG Which explains why the ships, uniforms, props and sets look almost identical to what they looked like in TNG...

[@deadNightwatchman]

"Not caring about the canon..." And there you have it.

[@chuckintexas]

Their shuttles don't violate EITHER "Cannon" Prime OR STD .

[@twaccital1966]

Since they do have new shuttle assets in the next episode, judging from the preview, this might just be an isolated issue for this episode and Children of Mars

[@ECHenry]

Could be! I’m hoping that’s the case.

[@alex_zetsu]

In universe, the Federation has been show several times to keep obsolete equipment around.

[@TheTattorack]

@@alex_zetsu Like the Miranda class? Maybe... but how does that explain that in previous shots of San Fransisco (i.e. Voyager, DS9) we see shuttles flying around that fit the time?

[@JeffreyPiatt]

@@ECHenry the short trek was filmed in Ontario, Canada by Discovery's film crew and the point of those shorts is to use existing assets to make new short films in the trek universe. the Class C full size mock up is the only shuttle in CA and it's more important to keep it looking like it's from the discovery era than redressing it for a short to look like a 24th century class 8 shuttle. seeing that it's owned by a school as a school bus it works as some starfleet surplus actually doing something other than floating around doing nothing like all those yards in TNG we saw. EP one being the pilot the new shuttle model was probably not ready at the VFX department so they used the low res Class C model to fill in as from a distance it looks like a class 5 shuttle.

[@JeffreyPiatt]

@@TheTattorack those VFX models were what was handy at Foundation. just remember TNG used to have the magic shuttles that changed from Class 6 to class 7 and back. even one that left the nship with the type 7 model stock footage used the type 6 inside and landed at the destination as a type 6.

[@Ajax1063]

@EC Henry - Thank you for phrasing this problem in such an intelligible and rational way. Most videos I see simply bash Discovery designs with reasons I can't relate with. But you pointed out the historical significance while pointing out the laziness of CBS. Well said, I am in complete agreement!

[@foxpianocovers]

They did so well, with the other details: Data’s First Contact uniform (with matching communicator) The TNG uniform (with matching communicator) The Ent D The B4 callbacks Seems a shame to lose it with the shuttles...

[@EVAUnit4A]

The _Enterprise-D_ was modified for that shot. CBS had to modify it in order to legally use it. That's a detail they plan on us not noticing.

[@LMP-R]

@@EVAUnit4A Modified how?

[@EVAUnit4A]

@@LMP-R memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/USS_Enterprise_(NCC-1701-D)#Legacy _" In the 2390s, Picard, sleeping at his vineyard in France, had a dream that he was in Ten Forward with Data on the Enterprise-D. _*_The configuration of the ship seemed to be somewhat different in the dream than it was in reality, but it was roughly the same Galaxy-class starship._*_ "_

[@user-vn7ce5ig1z]

EVA_Unit_4A> CBS had to modify it in order to legally use it. Why? Didn't they acquire everything part and parcel when they bought Paramount? 🤨 EVA_Unit_4A> The configuration of the ship seemed to be somewhat different in the dream than it was in reality Dreams are usually at least a little different from reality, so that's fine.

[@kasterborous1701]

Ted Parkes Three lights in each Bussard instead of only two. The deflector dish is different with the central element being much wider and flatter. The geometry of the neck seems a little weird.

[@Crais000]

Rear area ships might be older. The front line ships might be top of the line. Scofield Barracks and hangars from pre WWII are still used at Pearl Harbor

[@cmedtheuniverseofcmed8775]

It would be like handing a Model T Ford to somebody to start driving when everyone is driving a F150 Ford Truck on the highway. Those shuttles would be so old, they would be unusable or impracticable. Even today, the older the ship gets, the harder to maintain them. Eventually the maintenance costs would outweigh the cost of just producing a new design all together.

[@lukasperuzovic1429]

The air force still got 60 year old B-52 bombers still in service, they just get retrofitted with new engines and electronics along the way

[@marcocappelli2236]

@@lukasperuzovic1429 But, has the US Air Force ever stopped using B-52 bombers for decades, to suddenly start using them again? This is the type of jump we see from DSC, all the way to Picard. It just doesn't make sense, unless the Picard producers were not allowed to use many Trek designs.

[@lukasperuzovic1429]

@@marcocappelli2236 How often to we see Civilian Earth in TOS or TNG? Almost never.

[@marcocappelli2236]

@@lukasperuzovic1429 Precisely, and thus we should not see Federation space being full of DSC models. Earth having them? Odd, but not that hard to explain.

[@marcocappelli2236]

@@lukasperuzovic1429 I mean, we still haven't seen what shuttles they use in space on Picard...

[@DrakeAurum]

One consideration may be that they don't only have the existing CGI assets for the Discovery shuttle - they also have the physical assets such as shuttle interiors. So, if they ever need to show people inside these vehicles, it's helpful to have something that will work with existing sets with a little re-dressing. You cannot, after all, design and build a full-scale shuttle exterior and interior set in a single 8-hour session.

[@JustSumGuy01]

Why? Because lazy design choices. this is actually nothing new with Star Trek. That's why the Miranda and Excelsior has been used so often. I think at this point, it's even more laziness.

But creating physical model and CGI model is quite different from time consuming angle of view.

[@SchardtCinematic]

Back then the budget was not as big as they have now. Why they refused old physical models back then.

[@JustSumGuy01]

@ That is understandable but the concept of being lazy because of budget or in this cause...just being lazy applies. The producers of the show doesn't care

[@mcmanus260]

The Miranda and Excelsior makes sense. They are like navies, a navy will churn out multiple of the same model. The diversity of ships in more recent treks is actually a little bit unrealistic.

[@JustSumGuy01]

@@mcmanus260 True but by the time of DS9, the Miranda design is over 150 years old. It's like we're still using ship designs from World War I. Sure, we're still using fighters and ships put out during the late 80s but we future proof a lot of things and still come up with newer designs to phase out older stuff within 50 years.

[@zarendahl]

Probably going to be an unpopular opinion, but the Discovery shuttle design is visually similar to the Shuttle Goddard from the episode Relics in TNG. If something works and works well, why change the appearance much? Starfleet, as mentioned in Relics, doesn't just throw away something simply because it's old.

[@Parabueto]

Well that's fine. Problem is that as the shows progressed the shuttles we saw did change; there weren't TOS shuttles in TNG or later and Discovery is set even before that. Granted the Discovery shuttle looks like a more modern TNG shuttle so visually it actually looks great here (and really strange in Discovery), but re-using assets from a show supposed to be from before TOS when there is a vast range of existing alternatives or it's demonstrably trivial to create a new one is damnably lazy. As they said; we can rationalise it away but the fact we have to do that isn't really good in the first place.

[@Sarados1980]

I would say it's simply a money issue - as a 3D Artist I know how much the design, modelling and texturing of a good CGI model costs and no it's not done "in one day" if you want a good model for (HD)TV (which you can also use for closeups/internal shots later). The studio don't know how good Picard will score, so they try to keep the cost low in case the show flops. You can see this in EVERY TV show, the first season always have a low budget (Firefly re-used assets from Starship Troopers!). So why not using the old VOY models? Simple answer: File-Format/Version mismatch. VOY is 25! Years old, even the last season is still 19 Years old. At this time there were no things like Normal Maps, Specular, AO, PBR, UDIM etc. The new CGI tools they use now couldn't probably use the old files. (Try run a game from 1995 on your current PC, good luck). Why aren't they use the shuttles from the next episodes preview? Maybe because they weren't ready when the CGI shots for the pilot episodes were made? And yes maybe this is also a way to establish the ne re-imagine ST:Disc design in the Prime-Era. Neitherless the first episode was good, it was Star Trek, Picard was Picard, everything was believable.

[@the0thersyde725]

Thank You, Thank You, Thank You. I'm a 3d modelling student and I was thinking the exact same as everything you said. Though it doesn't even take 19 years for files to become useless. I've used programs where just updating to the latest version has messed stuff up.

[@TheRyFiNetWork]

Nailed it. Seriously tho I am 100% in agreement with you. I also actually really like your shuttle creation and actually would have 0 problem with that being used. Great Video.

[@patrickmcconaughey6176]

OK, I might be biased do to my love of the great Patrick Stewart, but Picard told us why we are seeing this........Dunkirk. During the evacuation of the British army from France they used any and all ships that could make the journey to France and pic up people. Then it was attacked and although we have no hard info yet it was made to sound like ALL the ships were destroyed. So what is left to be used for low risk Sol system jobs while priority manufacturing goes to front line Starfleet ships? Old out of date assets that still work just fine.......just don't shoot at them.

[@cormoran2303]

He was talking about an incident 20 years before the start of the show. We're still seeing those ancient shuttles in use during the show.

[@patrickmcconaughey6176]

@@cormoran2303 This might speak to the extent of the damage done by the ,"Synths," and if it was indeed so extensive it would explain the Federations over-reaction and banning of all A.I. research.

[@bttmfrezzo]

I was thinking the same thing, Patrick. The fact that it's pointed out that the next episode features newer ships makes me think this was on purpose. Not an oversight or laziness on CBS's part. I guess we'll find out...

[@user-vn7ce5ig1z]

That's grasping at straws. Whatever damage the synths may have done, it's still the future and they still have technology and all the information at Memory Alpha and all of their allies and everything else. It makes no sense that they wouldn't be able to bounce back in _20_ years, especially since everything else seems to have returned to normal future-level stuff as seen in the opening shots of Boston.

[@patrickmcconaughey6176]

@@user-vn7ce5ig1z You are assuming that nothing else has been going on in the rest of the Quadrant. We do not know what else has been needing Starfleet/Federation resources. If things came down to preventing a disaster on say Cardassia and cranking out some new ships to be used as civilian transports or stopping a disaster and making do with whatever is handy for non-critical missions what do you think the Federation/Starfleet would do?

[@orangekawi4319]

Rule#1: Don't spend money on the same thing twice. CBS Exec: "Didn't we already pay someone to make us 3D ship models" CBS Middle Management: "Yes Sir, for the Discovery series" CBS Exec: "Use those then, nobody will notice" 7yr old Little Timmy: "Dad, aren't those the same ships from Discovery?" Personally, I think Picard is an half-hearted attempt by CBS to find some relevancy in today's subscription based market and they are dipping their toes in the pond instead of jumping in with both feet like Disney did. All the decently produced shows are ending up on Amazon, Netflix, HBO, and Hulu instead of the legacy TV channels like CBS.

[@JDSleeper]

I'm sure this is just a time-honored budget saving measure always used in Star Trek: Using existing assets, like these ships. So I'm just going to imagine that these two are actually the 25th century versions from Star Trek Online, a Shran class (for Magee) and a Buran class (for the Shepard).

[@huntrovherobrin]

Except it's unwarranted today; Star Trek's budget is huge. If you're correct, then the only real explanation is corporate greed.

[@TheDanlovejoy]

the only rationale i can muster for this is that picard is close to the sto era of starfleet, and they could be pulling assets out of mothballs en masse after the dominion war just to get ships under pips, and its probably easier to use the shuttles those ships were configured for than it would be to reconfigure entire decks. though to pull this off, id expect to see some old galileos and other varied shuttles mixed in as the show goes on, showing a progression of oldest ships coming out of storage first

[@entropy11]

"Star Trek isn't just some sci-fi thing. It's a world with hundreds of years of established lore." Based on everything I've seen across the last 10 years of official Star Trek material, CBS obviously disagrees with you, and probably thinks people complaining about consistency and canon are just whiners who think far too much about something that's "just a tv show." They don't care about consistency and canon now, and they never really did.

[@lukasperuzovic1429]

Canon and lore in Star Trek always been a joke back then during the TOS ant TNG, why even complain about it now?

[@entropy11]

@@lukasperuzovic1429 that's just it, canon lore and continuity have rarely if ever been held as important by Trek writers, why even worry about it now?

[@lukasperuzovic1429]

@@entropy11 Only time they sorta tried was DS9, and they got mixed results.

[@PaiSAMSEN]

They were still much more consistence with each other than what we get for the last 10 years.

[@pills-]

@@PaiSAMSEN TBF, the last decade+ of ST has also been weird because of the CBS/Viacom split and the ownership rights to Trek. Which was why the new movies were made and probably Discovery as well.

[@SHADOSTRYKR]

This is discouraging. I haven’t seen Ep 1 yet but part of the excitement of a new series is seeing the new ships and shuttles.

[@chuckintexas]

_OR_ maybe giving _THE STORY_ a fair shot and NOT getting hung up on a mere plot device, side-tracking you from enjoying the context (where these shuttles fit into things ... ) and the STORY being presented. Now I'll _GRANT_ in a MOMENT these folks sometimes have a TOUGH time _CRAFTING_ a story, even _IF_ based on a solid concept, but complaining that their "Shuttles" look out of place as opposed to the family toyotas this guy crafted seems more than a bit trite. Still, this is HIS POSTING - we're just visitors here in HIS "Universe" . SEE how that works ?

[@SHADOSTRYKR]

@@chuckintexas Costumes, sets, props, and settings all come together to play their part in story telling. When these things are out of place or do not fit the context of the story being told it can be distracting and take viewers out of the experience. Now that this series is over I can say in my opinion it was lackluster from story telling standpoint, for a variety of reasons, but the use of craft that within the universe are 100's of years old was just one aspect of that.

[@DaddyDumptruckDeluxe]

@@chuckintexas good grief pal. take your diatribe somewhere else. BTW none of us _SEE how that works.._

[@Apollo-tj1vm]

Well in lore context, they were planning to use millions of ships to save the Romulans, and if they have to pull ships out of moth balls.. they can

[@D.M.S.]

Just wanted to say that

[@user-vn7ce5ig1z]

That doesn't explain old shuttlecrafts being used in regular places.

[@Apollo-tj1vm]

Some things are just reliable. Besides they look like type 6/8 shuttle used in TNG. doesn't explain why Discovery has that kind of shuttles though

[@Apollo-tj1vm]

The ships shown was before the shipyard was under attack and the mission was shut down.

[@EvanG529]

More like the designers pulling bad ship 3D models out

[@dominictierno9675]

I know I'm pretty late to the game here but I believe there might be a couple reasonable explanations for the use of the Discovery shuttle in Picard, CBS laziness aside. In-universe, I feel the explanation would be fairly simple in that these are former Starfleet shuttlecraft which have been requisitioned for civilian operation. Surplus, if you will. In the current day, for example, the Douglas DC-3 is a nearly 90 year old design and airframe. The plane itself was designed for civilian and military uses, and there were other variants produced. Despite the plane being nearly 90 years old, there are still militaries and civilian airlines that utilize this plane, and without any modern fittings in most cases. In the United States Air Force, the B-52 is a 60+ year old airframe, which might see its life extend to over 100+ years of service. Starfleet is no stranger to using the same space frame for enormous periods of time. The Miranda and the Excelsior were seen in the 2280s, and nearly 90 years later in the Dominion War. As where their roles have changed over time, the ships themselves are able to be retrofitted, updated, and used well into the future. That being said, Starfleet during the 2280s was also very frivolous, and replaced 20+ year old space frames, as seen with the refit Enterprise in 2286. In fact, many of the shuttlecraft in use on the refit 1701, and 1701-A maintained a very similar appearance to the 2250s Discovery shuttle. These models however were given modern warp nacelle housings, upgraded systems, and more for the needs of the time. It's possible that the 2250s shuttle was largely a workhorse, jack of all trades shuttlecraft which saw widespread adoption among most, if not all Starfleet vessels. So the model was likely mass produced, widely deployed, and when many were refit, many others were probably retired from service and mothballed. After mothballing, the fleet shuttles would likely face one of two fates: 1) scrapping for parts or 2) refit for civilian planetary service. As we see in Discovery, the shuttles are warp capable. So it's possible the warp drive would be removed, along with any weapons systems. The LCARS interface of the day, likely being one part more simplistic, but another part more difficult to learn would mean people would still need to be specialized to run these ships (which is not entirely unbelievable given Maquis Raiders used 50+ year old systems). Shuttles would be repainted and utilized as taxis, school transports, and may serve other uses in Starfleet installations as well. Just because we never saw them on screen before, doesn't mean they weren't being used in universe. After all, we did see much more of space than we did of Earth in most Star Trek series. After the Dominion War it is safe to assume that Starfleet would maintain priority resource allocation for designing and building a new fleet of ships to protect Federation space. This resource allocation means that older models would likely see further widespread adoption amongst civilian operators, and if this model was indeed a widely used frame, it's likely this would be the statistically more likely shuttle to be pulled from storage. Furthermore, given the enormous resources dedicated to Utopia Planetia in preparation of sending an emergency fleet to Romulus for evacuation probably saw all top of the line and modern vessels available in the Sol System reassigned to Mars, while old ships were also being pulled out of mothballs to add to the emergency fleet. Consider that and the destruction of Mars and its assets, we see Starfleet once again face enormous material losses in both newer designs AND older mothballed ships. Thus, the 2250's shuttle would likely see an extended civilian lifespan on Earth, and perhaps wider adoption within Starfleet itself. Realistically, this could all serve to be a very logical explanation, while considering how not only Starfleet keeps ships in service for very long periods, but also considering how modern aircraft and other military hardware are requisitioned and repurposed for police or civilian use.

[@Ron-gm3zj]

All the assets from Voyager are probably long since deleted or lying around on a hard drive in a closet somewhere. It was probably just easier to rewrap current models as needed and were owned by the same conglomerate. I see where you're coming from though. Imagine if Wesley had been dropped off at Starfleet Academy by the Galileo from TOS. There is probably no one in the production that can advocate for some continuity. Didn't Mike Okuda make the case during the run up to Voyager for having it's hull number be higher than that of the Defiant because he knew that fans would notice that a brand new ship somehow had an older number? Yeah there is no one like that there anymore. As well the clean, well-lit and un-greebled visual design we've come to love from ST:TMP / TNG are gone. Le sigh... I haven't watched the show but we see those shuttles as 3D assets. Are there any shots of the cast standing next to one in an exterior shot? Like is there a full-size mockup that was used so then they had to match it up with the correct 3D model?

[@USS_Sentinel]

Your comment reminds of what happened to the Babylon 5 assets. If I remember correctly, the assets were deleted and no backups were allowed to be made.

[@blastech4095]

They could have remade them.

[@Ron-gm3zj]

@@USS_Sentinel Wouldn't be surprised if that is the case. The production company would own all of that and no one is probably at all interested in maintaining storage of a bunch of 3D models that will never be used again. But seeing that 'civilian' shuttle with the forward windows... don't these guys know the future of transportation is driverless vehicles??!?!?

[@Ron-gm3zj]

@@blastech4095 Yeah that is sort of the point haha why didn't they? Or why didn't they take the time to design new ones? Everything in a production costs money and decisions about how it's spent are weighed heavily. Spend money on creating new assets, no matter how incidental and almost indiscernible in the frame they will be, or instead spend that money on more shots that clarify the plot or a little more time fleshing out a story. I think it was Brad Bird or maybe Jon Lasseter (can't remember) that said you can spend a ton of money/time getting this little thing way off in the back of the frame super perfect or it can be just good enough not to break the spell (paraphrasing).

[@admiralsquatbar127]

@@Ron-gm3zj it is possible that they have a back up human pilot. Just in case the A.I tries to kill everyone onboard by smashing them into a mountain side.

[@CHASEMARC]

I thought CBS (Discovery, Picard) could not use anything that Paramount/Viacom owned (TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT) until they worked out reuniting the companies that took place at the end of 2019, when CBS and Viacom announced that they would merge into a new corporation called ViacomCBS, reunifying the film, television and online sides of the Star Trek franchise -- maybe the 1st episode was started BEFORE the merger of the companies and they had to use the DISCOVERY CGI?

[@sammatthews1721]

This kind of lack of attention to detail when world building seems to be typical of the Kurtzman era. During the Berman era, people like Mike Okuda who were invested in the franchise worked to prevent stuff like this from happening. In an era of cinematic universes, it seems baffling to me that there isn't someone behind the scenes whose job it is to address these things.

[@lukasperuzovic1429]

Old Equipment gets used for decades in out real world military, we got Ships and Bombers from the 40s and 50s still in service.

[@sammatthews1721]

True, though we're talking about 150 years between Discovery and Picard. Starfleet does keep at least some designs around for a really long time. An excellent example of this is the Miranda and Oberth classes which both served for just about 100 years. They particularly tended to appear in the backgrounds of space battles (blowing up) or establishing shots. It was cheaper to reuse an existing physical models. Whenever ships took a more prominent role though, they tended to be newer TNG era designs such as the Nebula Class, Akira Class, or Galaxy Class especially as time went on. The Miranda was used to flesh out the background of space shots, but it wasn't the entire fleet. As @ECHenry indicates, part of the weirdness here is that (so far) it seems the Disco shuttles are particularly ubiquitous in the 2400s. At least mix in some Type-9 shuttles or runabouts. If the idea is that Starfleet keeps old designs around, then there should still be some 20 year old designs kicking around as well. Plus if it is still really common, why have we not seen it before in DS9 or TNG...?

[@sastrei]

It's possible the time crunch was still an issue. The first two (possibly three) episodes undoubtedly had to be completed far in advance of the rest. Perhaps the refugee fleet ships don't show up until deep into episode 3 or later. We do have the Sirena, that TOS RomBOP, the new baby Warbird, the Borg Cube, plus the Synth ships, the Mars orbital station (is it the same as the one hanging over Daystrom?), and the Mars surface assets. So their team was busy building stuff.

I'd say that the design is influenced more by the time when the show is produced rather than the time when it is taking place.

[@marcocappelli2236]

It's beyond ridiculous considering the Enterprise series' CG artists actually made new designs. This speaks more of utter laziness...

[@gravijiga]

I agree. They should have taken inspiration from the cage enterprise and other sci-fi sets from the 50's and 60's. Instead we ended up with designs that look even more advanced then TNG era ships

[@recurvestickerdragon]

The thesis of this video answers: "That's the problem"

[@larry355]

@@gravijiga that’s what my thoughts were with Enterprise it was too futuristic for it’s timeline.

[@taragnor]

The main problem is they wrote themselves in a corner with Discovery, because they made the tech way too advanced for the TOS era. Holocommunicators didn't happen until DS9 for instance in the standard timeline. The AIs were far more advanced in Discovery, similar to a TNG ship, and they had all the ultra-tech like the spore drive, and a suit that could travel through time (that they could make in a replicator). Discovery should never have been set in the TOS era with all the tech they introduced.

[@EvanG529]

I was excited about seeing the new Picard era ships they design... Is this really what they're doing?

[@SimonPicard]

I think the Discovery Shuttle fits Picard better than Discovery. It looks similar to the Type 8 Shuttle from TNG. It's just something modern and longer. At Discovery, they should have taken a shuttle that resembles the Galileo. But CBS only learned from the mistakes after the discovery.

[@kademcarthur5362]

The designs actually work here if you pretend Discovery never aired.

[@mattorama]

I like to pretend Discovery never aired.

[@robertkalinic335]

What do you mean by Discovery?

[@sagesheahan6732]

Isnt USS Discovery a Nebula-class? o.o (Lol)

[@SebastiandR81]

Oh, yes. Can we please all pretend DIS doesn't exist?

[@DrewLSsix]

I mean, the franchise has a long history of reusing assets way to long. Given the sheer amount of design work that went into DSC it's a shame that Picard didnt get it's own share of new designs but it's hardly unprecedented, TNG got a lot of new designs right out of the gate, then depended heavily on old assets even to the point that they made zero sense. DS9 enjoyed only a few new designs and those were spread out over the run of 7 seasons. Not making excuses but it pays to remember that Picard had a shorter development cycle, likely a smaller budget die to being a follow up to the big restarting of the franchise that was DSC, and whatever Henry says designing and modeling new assets in the context of a TV production is not cheap quick or easy.

[@Tytomasz]

This really bugged me too! We actually thought Children of Mars was set in the Discovery time period because of the shot with the Discovery ships at the beginning. We didn't realize it was set much later until Picard showed up in the news clip at the end haha.

[@NeutronicalGaming]

Retires shuttles fleet wide, hmm now we have 10,000 shuttles what do? let's just use them as small transports .. okay! you see taxis and runabouts, you don't see them being deployed in a fight ( yet ) and if they do that then that's the immersion breaking part, i don't see a problem with perfectly good shuttle that probably spent half their service life in storage anyway being reused later we already do that with army surplus today. you can go buy one of a million decommissioned army vehicles that no longer serve military purposes, i imagine this to be the same thing. it works perfectly well for the intended purpose and it's already been produced, so no waste and no material cost. also, with the advanced repair technologies available in startrek ( wave a magic wand at everything and it fixes itself ) you basically can repair anything forever. this isn't a dealbreaker, YET. if they start using discovery ships in the fleet then its game over.

[@Patchuchan]

In the TNG episode Final Mission a the pilot of a miner transport had some old TOS era phasers so old stuff probably gets sold to the public.

[@lostathelney2166]

Everyone has always though military equipment is cool so of course this will happen in the star trek universe, the federation always have the newest and latest unless they need extra ships fast and the old goes into civilian use as they are still perfectly useable

[@spencerwillkie4997]

Remember that StarFleet is not a military per-say, but I was thinking the same thing when I was watching the video. It also looks like those shuttles he was talking about were the current fleet shuttles being used. However I have not watched the episode yet so I don’t really know the context of that scene

[@Elitrian]

@@spencerwillkie4997 You don't see any of the actual Starfleet vessels, so you don't see any of the shuttles they are using. At this point in time, it's just civilian shuttles they are using.

[@edwarddeguzman3258]

I could see discovery ships being used at training vessels, makes more sense to give cadets one of those rather than say a brand new defiant class vessel.......

[@clubtepes2046]

I agree mostly with what you are saying. To be fair, TNG used most of the TMP era assets as well. The Excelsior and Reliant miniatures showed up may times. These ships would have been 80-100 years old at that point. Modern US aircraft carriers are serving 50+ years. B-52 bombers are going to have an almost 100 year lifespan. In the TNG tech manual, the Galaxy class was designed to have a 100 year lifespan. All these things are real and canon. So I would totally expect to see (and hope we do) see a in service Galaxy class. The Enterprise 'E' should most definitely be out there somewhere. And we should see it. Dry docks? 100 years easy. However, this does not excuse not having some new designs.

[@CaileanBabcock]

Budgetary restrictions times impossible deadlines divided by an intense lack of caring. A chronic problem in television production.

[@alexmacaulay2959]

Is the licensing issue the reason they moved ten forward 3 windows to the left? It used to be at the centre of the saucer. In fact the old 6 foot shooting model never had it, but the 4 foot model did.

[@ValosiTiamata]

I've said this multiple times, and I still think it might be the case: The DiscoVerse never fit into Prime canon. The ships all use post-Nemesis technology and are many times too large for anything of that era (although we do see massive ships starting with the Romulans in TNG as well as in future era Starfleet vessels). Outside of the constant use of dangerous pre-warp design flaws such as bridge windows, the Federation DiscoVerse ships are mostly good designs when placed into an era that is technologically advanced enough to accomodate them. I feel like CBS wanted DiscoVerse ships in Picard to try and force the idea that two completely different continuities were the same universe... and the Picard team smiled, shook their heads, and said "Let's take the Disco assets, pull that 25% excuse to give them proper nacelle lighting and other necessary Prime continuity tweaks, and use them in a setting where they actually make sense". All they have to do is drop a line somewhere saying "This is the NEW _____-class ship" and add some hull texturing over the bridge windows and you have a perfectly believable Prime timeline ship that fits the post-Nemesis era completely. As for the drydock, they probably didn't bother dusting off older Prime assets or creating a new one for the simple fact that the docks are destroyed before the series even begins. That means they can use the excuse that new shots of a DiscoVerse dock could have been something "cobbled together out of scrap in a hurry" or that a pre-attack shot was simply using it to save money for a one-off moment where the docks were once again "cobbled together in a hurry to help build the Romulan aid fleet". The Picard team have thus far done a very good job of following the Prime canon, even if they hadn't known that Troi had a wig or contacts or got Data's contacts in the wrong yellow. I like to think any use of DiscoVerse material is meant to give a canon alternative origin to decent ship designs or that they're there merely because CBS is forcing tie-ins and they're throwing them in where they're least obtrusive so they can ensure Picard is set in the proper continuity.

[@michaellauinger7406]

STDverse never fit Star Trek, period. It's the most insulting abomination to Gene Roddenberry ever conceived!

[@1249MARIO]

Nice work! And excellent points!!

[@NetNN]

Toy’s commercial. If the Picard’s series is a hit. The toy will sell and if they use the same design as Discovery, they can just reselling the toys that collecting dust on the shelves since Discovery.

[@JosephFarrelltron]

NetNN wait there’s a shuttle toy?!

[@NickCampbellCampbeln]

@@JosephFarrelltron Nope, because all the licensees walked away saying we Trekkies won't buy this Prime timeline crap (and they're right).

[@JosephFarrelltron]

Nick Campbell I don’t believe the info wars-style KZbin channels. Also there’s an eagle moss model apparently. It’s lovely.

[@snake56]

@@JosephFarrelltron Eagle Moss is not a big thing, it's for a very niche audience.

[@thomaszinser8714]

@@snake56 to be extremely blunt, any and all Trek models would be for a very nich audience. Not least because, well, when Trek *tries* to do something that would appeal beyond the niche it's in (see, for example 2009 Trek), the fans get extremely outraged, extremely quickly.

[@ademisd7449]

Thank you EC Henry for covering most of my problems with this issue in such a nice video.

[@IantoddusSardus]

I try: old design shuttles are relegated to civilian transportation and very short range activities.

[@marcocappelli2236]

That would make sense,.....unless we see them always being used by Starfleet in future episodes.

[@EvanG529]

which we probably will

[@Lanosrep]

Why are there there? Well it said it in the show itself. Starfleet spent a decade producing easy to make ships, and reusing older ships for the evacuation of Romulus. So of course the place that they're building these ships, is going to have these ships present. It's not lazy, it's a no brainer. And for the shuttles, it's obvious that there will be the new shuttle featured, but only when it's needed. Sure Tom Paris developed a brand new shuttle, but that doesn't mean it's going to be used by everyone. That ship was designed for survival in a remote part of the galaxy, and even if it is still being used, it's in the deep space missions, not as a school bus. These shuttles serve little use now that transporters appear to be fully commercialised. So they're left for people who either can't, or won't use transporters. Therefore there is little need to make new classes of shuttles for this very small demographic. People bring up the excuse of "It's the future and there's no money, so they should be able to update them all easily". But time still exists, you need to measure investment against reward, and if the investment is spending years and many man hours to create fleets of new shuttles, and the reward is that they look slightly different and serve no greater purpose, then it's a waste of time.

[@marcocappelli2236]

@@Lanosrep If in future episodes we keep seeing them being used everywhere, then it would be really strange as they weren't common in previous series. For now it's not hard to explain....

[@EvanG529]

@@Lanosrep That doesn't explain why they suddenly reappeared after 170+ years. Your rationalization is flawed.

[@Stranglars1]

The broadcasting company probably didn't own the rights to show any ships featured in the TNG and DS9.

[@LazarusRemains]

Someone send this video to the entire production team.

[@EVAUnit4A]

Careful what you wish for- you know that production team has a strong allergic reaction to Trekkers and, well, "sensibility".

[@Sk8rToon]

What you’re missing in the “lunch hour” “easy” design process is the numerous meetings, exec fingerprinting, & other steps in the process. You also don’t know the negotiating that took place behind the scenes. They probably had to trade new shuttle designs for some big finale thing

[@looseycanon]

You don't need to go that far for an explenation... Question, which cracks this open, is "are these starfleet shuttles?" If not, it would be possible for even very antiquated technology surviving to present day. We have seen this even with starfleet before! Throughout the Dominion war, the most ubiquitous ship classes were Excelsior and Miranda. Very capable, but severely outdated starships. The same can be said about the Xhosa, which, being a civilian ship, provides even more standing to this argument. As for Discovery-era ships present in current erea, it's easy to refit existing ship for a single mission. Much more importantly, it's a lot faster than constructing new ships. Therefore, if these oldies were refitted to serve in Picards fleet as resque bargues, their presence would make in canon sense. Even though this was just a budgetary decision no doubt.

[@CaptainM792]

Well in Star Trek online they have ships from different eras like constitutions, they even brought back the NX class into service.

[@jamesgrose510]

Most of those are refits, which is the equivalent of making a new model of the same line of cars. Even the NX Refit has been touched up by adding a second deflector dish. The ones I find most questionable are the TOS-era ships, which were retrofitted, which is still a dumb way to introduce originally-designed TOS-era ships into the post-VOY era.

[@alex_zetsu]

it's been shown lots of times in the TNG era and in the movies that the Federation keeps large amounts of obsolete ships. In the battle of Wolf 359 the Bozeman, which is from the ToS era was scrambled in defense of Federation space... and it was an active ship not mothballed and called back into service. In DS9, we know these obsolete ships at the minimum do not have modern shielding, so even if the engines, computers, replicators, and weapons are retrofitted, we at the minimum know the shields aren't. And this is just for Starfleet, there might be lots of Federation civilian vessels that are obsolete. So to put it simply, the Federation keeps lots of obsolete equipment around for no good reason and I don't see why the tendency to keep it around would change. Edit: Bozeman was in a latter battle against the Borg, but my point stands it was still on active duty.

[@Bleachsoul13]

Well, I wouldn't say "for no good reason". A post-scarcity society, even with unlimited access to Replicators, would have long moved past consumerism and the quick turnover of hardware that is demanded by companies and corporations. So if a shuttle still flies? Keep using it. If a Shipyard is still serviceable? Then they'll keep using it. A spaceframe still works, albeit with some retrofits needed? Then they'll keep using it. Plus, most of the time we're following a ship that's cutting edge, with top of the line equipment and the best, newest hardware available. We know that's not the case across the Federation. Oberth-class ships were still in service alongside Sovereigns, and that design is old as balls. Sure, it was lazy of the Picard team not to make new designs for the first episode and the short, but as long as we start to see newer designs we can just rationalize it away as the Federation using hardware until it literally falls apart.

[@marcusmanchester7095]

Think about what a ship is in Star Trek though: it's a hull. Everything inside the ship can be swapped out relatively easily for better components as long as the hull can take the stress it's still fine. That doesn't mean a new ship won't be better, but it does mean that Starfleet doesn't waste resources when they don't need to (I know, Trek is a post-scarcity society). As for the shields, I highly doubt that they wouldn't upgrade those as well, at least up to the point that any integral non-replaceable hardware can take. I think what bothers me about Picard is what bothers EC Henry: now some asinine in-universe rationale has to be created to justify why all these ships are being used when they haven't been seen through the entire run of TNG, DS9, or VOY. I know the real world reason is they weren't designed yet, but why is this happening in universe?

[@nox5555]

@@marcusmanchester7095 The question is, how many new ships were build between DS9 and Picard. We see alot of loses in the War against the dominion with whole fleets beeing lost.

[@marcusmanchester7095]

@@nox5555 That's true, but were these ships all kept in storage for that long? And this explanation only works with ships, shuttles don't work at all (if it did, Voyager would have just built whatever shuttle was simplest to build when they lost a shuttle...). And, in universe, all the new ships seen at the Battle of Sector 001 were supposed to be easy to build ships that could replace old vessels like the Excelsior, Miranda, and Oberth classes, while ships like the Galaxy class (and closely related ships like Nebula) or the Sovereign were supposed to be the frontline best of the best ships.

[@avenuePad]

I agree 100% with your point. One minor correction though: the Bozeman fought the Borg at Section 001 with the Sisko's Defiant under Worf's command. The Battle at Wolf 359 happened a couple years before the Bozeman came through that time rift. I'm that guy. lol

[@shadowynfilms]

Great video. Really like your shuttle btw lol As far as I know, any new Star Trek, can't use anything pre-Abram's due to copyright conflict, and there is a percentage (I think it's 20%) in which a design needs to change. But you are right, they should have taken the time to make new meshes for the show. Some fans love, and get inspired by new designs, which the shows are known for. Keep up the good work :)

[@trekvdm]

I have a feeling the pilot was finished ahead of the rest of the series.

[@Nodux359]

Once again, one single fan produces - just for fun - far better models and designs than the professional production team. Can you make a presentation video about your models? They look great and say "This is Star Trek"!

[@vovacat1797]

The Kurtzman team is still trying to impose dominance. "We are Star Trek now, it belongs to us, so we will show you again and again our weird astromech robots, our hollowed out ships and our shuttle designs. Your old trek is no longer, this is ours now"

[@mtr801]

Владимир Кузнецов Vovacat17 That’s exactly what I thought

[@NdieCity]

@São João do mundo people like you would've protested the interracial kiss in TOS

[@NdieCity]

@São João do mundo lol why are you spelling racist like that

[@NdieCity]

@São João do mundo it's not being censored though? i said "racist" just then and it came out fine. think you're just being paranoid

[@NdieCity]

@São João do mundo nobody is controlling your body lmao. but i'm not going to be censored just for saying "racist" in a youtube comment

[@loch4178]

I for one, like your quick mock up shuttle. Makes me think of a flying VW bug. I can see it being a widely used personal ship. The type Mom and Dad buy for the kid when they graduate high school.

[@Gorandius1256]

Speaking of new Models, didn't Eaglemoss create a bunch of Hi res models for their magazines? Can't CBS just co-opt those or something?

[@GeeVanderplas]

They use the CBS assets for their Disco (and upcoming Picard) models. Some new ones were created externally for old ships where good cgi assets didn't exist, but there may be a rights issue on those? I don't know...

[@I.Simmonds]

I think it's the designers marking their territory. Or marketing their style.

[@michaeldeboer9940]

I recently rewatched DS9 “The Sound of her Voice” and noticed a cool shuttle design. The Picard-era shuttles look retro by comparison, with square nacelles underneath. So even ignoring the Discovery ripoff, it wouldn’t make sense.

[@irregularassassin6380]

Bit of a necro-post, but you're referring to the "Chaffee-type" shuttle, and it is a really cool design! It was the second shuttle design that launched from the Defiant, they needed a new model for some reason. Memory Alpha goes into much more detail on why that is and how it was designed.

[@shauncraigparkinson8165]

There is no excuses, it's pure lack of Star Trek knowledge, or pure laziness, either or, such a massive shame and a stomach punch for all the fans.

[@harleyq6925]

Well seeing as most vehicles can still be road ready, literally we can actually STILL drive the Model T on the road. Since it is 140 years old that means there is probably a ton of those old resources, a lot of which are probably cleaned, repaired and reinstated. It would be acceptable that they pull out old shuttles cause some construction crews use 75 year old machines to get the job done too, they are not put on the front lines but definitely still in service. It is also on Earth which means less than hostile environments, think like some of the shuttles in TNG era, they come with VERY EXPENSIVE upgrades; Better radiation shielding, electro-plasma discharge plating, higher weapon power, better engine power displacement, advanced deflector abilities Some proof would be look at the NASA space shuttles, they reused them so much that now a Ford Focus is more advanced than what we send up to space

[@remlezar2693]

Idk, that's like using a model T as a daily commuter vehicle though. It works, but why on gods green earth would you want to? Why would so many people use them in the capital?

[@aracuron9956]

@@remlezar2693 on 24.Century earth, it seems to be a big Deal to do things in a bit retro way, Look at the Restaurant of Ben Diskos father and the whole streets outside of it, look at Chalet Picard. They have all the modern gadgets and use them causually, but they dont let their Environment Look more technological than needed, except it is for a reason. Evrn the building architecture in the citis look not more modern as it needs. Only within this Starfleet building, Hologramm pop up nder the ceiling. But they even have a counter with a receptionist guy, not a public computer access ot something like this. This even makes sense. I worked for years as a Software engineer. At home I oftrn read a book, one made of paper. I did not even think about getting a eBook reader. If it is "modern" in this decade, to use the best technology where needed, but the oldest that does the Job, where possible, even these Type C maybe make sense. They are not anything near the age of the model, but exactly reproduced, maybe even with the best technology they have under the Cover. Just because it's the style of the decade.

[@remlezar2693]

@@aracuron9956 reading a book on paper and driving a model T is not the same thing

[@OllamhDrab]

@@remlezar2693 A problem with that comparison is that car technology advanced pretty exponentially in the *first* fifty years, and much more incrementally over the next fifty, and the current span. It would be relatively simple to take modern engine and drivetrain from, say, a current day Dodge Challenger and stick it in a fifty year old Dodge Challenger, add modern day restomod suspension and brakes and, hec, a nav system etc if you wanted, without it looking different on the outside at all. The same trick would not work with, say, a 1970 and a 1920 model. Not without the result looking entirely different, as you can see from T-bucket hotrods. I assume private vehicles in Trek world would be much more varied, while public transport and such is more like freight trucks and trains... they change shape much less, cause they have to fit all the facilities built so long ago, and what was built to match *those* and so on. Also I'd figure Earth, in that regard, still *would* kind of have a lot of 'car culture' and that tends to have a serious nostalgic streak. When you can replicate anything, why not choose from anything? :)

[@remlezar2693]

@@OllamhDrab I guess so but like, why would that be retro for people in that particular time? Nobody then was alive when that model would've been used. I understand a couple people would but theres no way it would be that common

[@roblogified]

I think, until we see Klingons in Picard more than a still image with Worf in the background, this won't be verified, but I'm thinking the whole aesthetic has been retconned to evolve from DISCO era tech. Not sure how they expect to get away with that as they're using story elements from TNG, the TNG films, and VOY where we have SEEN other ships post DISCO that didn't evolve from that aesthetic though. Another explanation: when the Synthetics went rogue and obliterated the largest federation shipyard AND the rescue armada for the Romulans, a LOT of those ships were likely shuttles. Shuttlecraft are basically the defacto vessel for rescue efforts. That means they lost a LOT of shuttles plus the largest shipyard. That excuses pulling DISCO shuttles out of reserve for 'Picard', as we know Starfleet doesn't just scrap ships that still work (Excelsior class was in use for a VERY long time, for example, as well as the Miranda class) so they likely had quite a few of them around still, but that doesn't excuse the Short Trek using so much discotheq.. I mean DISCO tech.

[@ah7910]

They showed the Discovery Enterprise model at Starfleet Headquarters. Completely unnecessary and no doubt a petty little effort from Alex Kurtzman to let us know he is still in charge. IF you are right Robert, and when we finally see Klingons - they are the strange aquatic looking creatures we saw in Discovery, and they continue to retcon... I walk away. I miss the universe I invested in throughout my teens into my adulthood - Alex Kurtzman has no love for the rich 50 year plus universe building.

[@CardboardSliver]

Because Alex Kurtzman hates us. His writing staff had no idea what Trek is, he has no idea what Trek is, and even the effects team has no idea what Trek is Alex just wants to shove his baby, Discovery in our faces every chance he gets.

[@georgeduncan9443]

do what i do..... i enjoy star trek by watching "the orville" ! cos that IS star trek !

[@MentalCheckCA]

You answered your own question at the beginning of this video. First off, in the race to get everyone off of Romulus, yes, every capable ship is to be used. That means every mothballed ship has to be prepped and sent out. And with that many ships, any useful tool would be used as well. As is the Enterprise D was meant for a 100 year service life. Gutted and upgraded every so often, but the base structure was designed for a century of use. And with many military items, they tend to be used far past their expectations. Just talk to a service members one day, some may tell you that they are using gear 50 years past service life, yes, that is today. At the same time, civilian craft, like that taxi, was probably once a star fleet shuttle. It is a hand me down cycle. It is deemed obsolete, but not useless. Thus, it is a taxi. Even today, go into a major city that’s been around for a while, you will see infrastructure that is really really old and you would have thought of being replaced long ago, but is in still active use. I have lived in a city where the piping for natural gas was made from wood, yeah, wood. Seems rather silly today, but some wood, tar (or whatever binding/sealing agent) is used, and it was the best option at the time. So now, we see Picard as a civilian, and he is surrounded by older items that civilians use. So in short, civilian infrastructure can be old, and they get hand me downs. And then you have the race to save as many romulans as possible, using everything available in an attempt that is desperate. At the same time, some vehicles never really change externally, just internally. And when it comes to military ships, vanity is at a minimum for functionality to be at a maximum.

[@MinasTsambanis]

Wasn't said that the Federation would take a significant amount of time to recover from the Dominion War?

[@Janoha17]

Which would explain why they would pull out all those Klingon War era starships and just refit them with the modern technology, so they don't have to build as many spaceframes.

[@Edward_Plantagenet]

I am hoping this is what they meant.

[@marcocappelli2236]

Μανος Κομπανης In episode 18 (I think) of the last season of DS9, Sloan states that after the Dominion War, the Klingon Empire would take ten years to rebuild their fleet, the Cardassian Empire would be occupied, and that would leave only the Federation and the Romulan Empire. It would of been interesting to see this post-war power vacuum, like if the US or China suddenly colapsed, leaving space for other smaller nations. In another episode of the same season, Worf states that Klingon ships require repairs more often than Romulan ships due to their willingness to be on the front lines. This would corroborate Sloan's predictions.

[@Janoha17]

Why do I suspect that the assets were originally meant for Picard's late 24th-early 25th century style?

[@marcocappelli2236]

J17 And that the DSC team was the lazy one, not the Picard team?

[@joshuahillerup4290]

I didn't notice at all. Now why they were wearing Voyager/early DS9 uniforms again on the other hand...

[@leonpetrak2302]

I think Data wears it cuz that's the last Picard saw him and he saw him in it on Ent-D cuz Ent-D is the ship that made Picard so famous,prolly

[@joshuahillerup4290]

@@leonpetrak2302 huh? I meant at Star Fleet headquarters

[@leonpetrak2302]

@@joshuahillerup4290 oh,I didn't notice

[@Lanosrep]

So Why are there there? Well it said it in the show itself. Starfleet spent a decade producing easy to make ships, and reusing older ships for the evacuation of Romulus. So of course the place that they're building these ships, is going to have these ships present. It's not lazy, it's a no brainer. And for the shuttles, it's obvious that there will be the new shuttle featured, but only when it's needed. Sure Tom Paris developed a brand new shuttle, but that doesn't mean it's going to be used by everyone. That ship was designed for survival in a remote part of the galaxy, and even if it is still being used, it's in the deep space missions, not as a school bus. These shuttles serve little use now that transporters appear to be fully commercialised. So they're left for people who either can't, or won't use transporters. Therefore there is little need to make new classes of shuttles for this very small demographic.

[@inerlogic]

"Just because something's old doesn't mean you throw it away." Geordi La Forge "Relics" Geordi said that despite its age, the USS Jenolan (the transport ship Scotty crashed in) would probably still have been in service in the TNG era. That's not "hand waving" or retconning, that's a quote from 28 years ago. And considering that during "Children of Mars" they were trying to get a fleet together to evacuate the Romulan system ahead of the supernova, yeh, they probably pulled every warp capable ship out of every graveyard they had.

[@-JustHuman-]

There is a difference though, they went completely away for decades, and then returned again. In ST univers those would have been recycled into new things already.

[@obato76]

I think the fault lies with some unnamed CBS exec. It's been rumoured that Bryan Fuller - who originally conceived a new Trek series set before TOS - was fired because he wanted the production design of the show to be consistent with the pre-TOS era. This CBS exec, who was so against the idea of a 2017 show employing 1960s design (regardless of how well the design team could have updated it to look good by modern standards), was subsequently so proud of the flashy new spaceships of DISCO that he insisted some of them appear in Star Trek: Picard. And if saner minds were horrified at the idea, this exec must have been powerful enough to get his way. Star Trek history is full of dumb decisions like this made by network/studio execs with no knowledge nor respect for lore. With people like this in charge of our favorite fictional franchises, fanwanking and handwavery really is an exercise in futility.

[@michaelgiertz-rath7994]

Discovery series simply looks too modern for the time period it's set in. Sure, nobody want to watch a series of this century looking like one from the sixties of the last one, so they couldn't go back. Heck, they couldn't even make the new series look like Enterprise or Voyager since that look is outdated too! I watched a couple of TNG episodes recently on Netflix and despite the entire material got reworked and put back together with modern tech, TNG still looks aged - and not in a good way. Same can be said about other ST series as well: they didn't age in a good way. Discovery simply looks like something from the late 24th century, the very same time period that Picard series is set in. So why is the Federation still using 150y old shuttles? My best guess here: they work. They're basic designs, easy to maintain and are most likely used for planetary travel only, while the "good stuff" is reserved for Starfleet. Also the Federation / Starfleet loves to keep old designs in duty and sometimes even go back to old designs just because they can. That modern looking Akira class (seen in Star Trek First Contact)? That ship's designer appears to be a fan of the Enterprise NX and used her basic shape, adjusted some details and made it twice the size - but it's still the very same basic design. While in the Dominion War, Starfleet brought nearly all ships to bear they could muster, including 100 - 150y old designs. The Miranda class is a 120y old design. The Excelsior is STILL (!) the backbone of the Federation after 100 years of duty. Just to get an idea what that means: imagine BE warships like the Dreadnought are still in use today and pitted against modern frigates and cruisers AND are still the main ships of the line! While I understand your concern, I believe Starfleet / the Federation is simply keeping successful designs in duty until something better is available. If the transports and work bees seen in that episode are still the best choice due their reliable, rugged and cheap design, I can't see why they shouldn't have them around. Also keep in mind we never saw the Federation ordinary citizen life before. Starfleet is their top-notch-military - that doesn't mean civilians have access to the same tech.

[@sbushido5547]

_"Discovery series simply looks too modern for the time period it's set in."_ I think this is more a problem with the way the old shows were shot/produced than with Discovery itself. Our perception of what is "futuristic" has changed significantly now that we're living in the far-off tomorrowland of 2020. And I think it would have been a very bad idea for them to intentionally make everything look like it was built with cardboard and duct tape. I think the interior of the Enterprise was amazing in season 2...I just wish they hadn't made so many mistakes (and seemingly pointless arbitrary changes to the Star Trek aesthetic) in the first season, and started from there instead. But still, your sentiment isn't wrong. If they hadn't decided to make Discovery a prequel, it wouldn't be an issue. And they already did the "we're fascinated and confused by this newfangled technology" in Enterprise, so that option was off the table.

[@jerryadams6799]

The Akira design predates the NX-01. in fact during and after ENT's run there was a lot of fan debate about why ENT used an akira design but inverted the nacelles.

[@Psychlist1972]

The thing I find the most amusing about Picard is that they use the Anaheim Convention Center for a location. I go there every year (well, not last year) for the NAMM event. It's interesting to see the minor changes they made when shooting there. Maybe we could get a starfleet drum circle going :D

[@Slaphappy1]

The 25% licensing difference is the reason for the shuttles. They would have had to come up with different shuttles to what we have seen in TNG, DS9, Voyager. So with budget constraints they went with the Discovery assets.

[@ah7910]

Hi Brendan, this really does make a lot of sense. You can see how sparingly they are using old props or ‘assets’ Alex Kurtzman is begrudging having to pay a license for. What a shame things don’t feel ‘right’. I’d given anything to visit that universe again.

[@user_of_the_force_15.74]

4:17 You replaced the Shadow!!! WONDERFULL!!!

[@DeetexSeraphine]

Hold up... you have access to the Goes Nowhere Does Nothing? Sonuva....

[@TJSnej01]

The first flight of a F-15 jet was at 27. Juli 1972. And the F-15 is still flying and is still updated. The hull may be old, butt I think that many compnents are still uptodate.

[@anthemanatheme1638]

I am a simple man, I see EC Henry, I click.

[@Mister__Jey]

You just have to look at Star Trek's bonus material for TNGs Blu-ray version, how they prepared the series at the time in 1986, what they thought about, how everything should look like from tricorder to phaser to hypo spray, about the enterprise itself, how the physics are supposed to work, they have given thousands of thoughts and created a Bible beforehand, and everything had to be done according to this TNG Bible and in the end after a script was written, it still had to pass the Gene Roddenberry test, if Gene Roddenberry did not gave his okay, then it wasn't a Star Trek. Only Gene Roddenberry had to approve the episodes, so that the episode is a real Star Trek episode ... Well ... We don't have all that anymore ... They didn't prepare at all, they have no guidelines , no Rick Sternbach, Dan Curry or Mike Okuda and no one who first checks the script for its Star Trek suitability ... The result is the worst Stat Trek ever ... And at TNG it was almost only men behind the camera, who worked at Star Trek... Old white men... The pure evil for feminism.... Of course, At Discovery, there are almost only women ... And they are proud of that fact... They hire people because of the skin color and gender... I wonder who are the real racists and sexiest...

[@derpimusmaximus8815]

Is it a coincidence that right before this, I watched the Spacedock episode about the 'scaled up with gun hotglued onto the bottom' Imperial-I Star Destroyers in Rise Of Shitwalker?

[@soldovah9649]

Same here! The Xyston's model infuriates me. Especially knowing that they had amazing concepts to use in place of a scaled up Rogue One ISD-1 model.

[@CaptainSovereign]

@@soldovah9649 The Xyston is just a copy of the galaxy x(sw edition)

[@soldovah9649]

@@CaptainSovereign I understand the base reasoning, but I also respectfully disagree. In Star Trek, Admiral Riker exposits a perfectly reasonable explanation as to why the Galaxy X exists. There is at least a bit of lore as to why with that ship.

[@Sirithil]

@@soldovah9649 The scaling up is really what ruins it. If it was still ISD-I sized, they could just explain away the Xyston as 'Well, Palpatine had all these old obsolete ships lying around so he just strapped big guns to the bottom of each one.'

[@ewplayer3]

Well reasoned and well explained. I’ll be interested to see if they spend any time at all in the show trying to retcon and explanation.