Routine Training Flight Turned Deadly!

[@pilot-debrief]

I don't always like to debrief events before we have all the details. It's possible this was NOT a VMC demo. However, I hope the information I shared provides some value and saves lives. If you want to learn more about VMC demos, watch this video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/p5DSpICaibF8pas The company that offers the flight debriefing tool that I used in the video is FlySto. The link is in the video description.

[@major__kong]

There are way too many people in aviation that get bent out of shape over speculation and say let the professionals do their job. Let me tell you, the NTSB speculates, too. They just call it generating a hypothesis.

[@LTVoyager]

@@major__kongTrue, but the NTSB has a whole lot of data on which to base their speculation. That is a huge difference.

[@jacobwetherby]

It takes me back that even very experienced pilots can't negotiate a single engine yaw, it's a little scary

[@MrKatastrof1]

Yeah I’m not sure I agree. There’s too much speculation with not enough data for this to be useful. The two incidents, at least with the software that is used, do not look similar. The Seminole crash does look like a vmca air departure into a spin, but the Barron has a rapid pull up, with a recovery and then departure. Which without hard data, and context doesn’t seem useful. Is the point that these demos shouldn’t be performed? Should only be performed at the recommended altitude? Any pilot training maneuver can be dangerous, but they are necessary to train. VMCair is good to experience because it usually happens single engine on approach; the natural tendency of single engine aircraft pilots is to go full power on the operating engine (to recover from the low airspeed/stall) which leads to the loss of heading control and then departure from controlled flight. So again, without knowing the details how is this useful? Are we suggesting that it shouldn’t be performed because an accident occurred? If not, why not wait for more context? What’s the pressing issue that’s makes this useful to put out?

[@jacobwetherby]

To me it looks like they were on their way to a vmc demo, hence the altitude climb, the plane not only lost airspeed from climbing, but it also put extra stress on the engine in question, resulting in failure, and dramatic airspeed loss. What actually failed in the engine remains to be seen, the first thing that comes to mind is an abrupt increase in fuel-line pressure, possibly causing the fuel line to detatch mid-air.

[@pdquestions7673]

As a former multi-engine flight instructor, one thing to watch is how steady the student is flying before he/she enters a critical phase of any maneuver. It's on the instructor not to focus so much on the critical portion of the maneuver, but also to watch the steadiness and stability as the student is in the initial phases of the demonstration. As the student gets closer to stall speed or Vmc, it's ok to halt the maneuver at Vmc + 5 (or sooner) if the student starts to show any instability or excessive oscillations in pitch or yaw. It's ok to spend whole lessons on the pre-critical entry phases of maneuvers. It's better for the student to learn how to fly smooth and stable in a safer part of the envelope, rather than just focusing on the critical parts of these maneuvers. I wouldn't let any student get close to an actual stall or Vmc if I had any discomfort with their smoothness or steadiness & basic attitude & airspeed awareness. Also, there's nothing wrong with shadowing the engine controls & rudder pedals, and backing the good engine down and helping w the rudder if anything goes wonky near Vmc. I know people feel financial pressure to just crank out their ratings, but I would insist on a whole lesson of "pre-Vmc" practice demonstrations, where the students master maintaining smooth control down to Vmc +5.. and never getting to a real Vmc demo until they first master Vmc+5.

[@lessharratt8719]

Like practicing incipient spins. Over and over and over. Then a full spin. C-150. He was ex mil and I decided I would only fly with him as my instructor. Good choice I believe.

[@pdquestions7673]

@@lessharratt8719 totally agree. The problem, often, is the financial pressure. If a student needs an extra 3 lessons in a twin-engine plane, that's going to cost a ton of money. But in the end, way more important than the "climax" of these critical maneuvers is basic airmanship & steadiness w control inputs, and too many pilots have issues with excessive control inputs and a total lack of smoothness & basic "air sense." Once they master that smoothness & real situational awareness, then these maneuvers are generally super safe and routine. Sadly, my experience was that maybe 15-20% of students really had the natural "touch" to fly smoothly, and there wasn't enough space in the budget to just focus on teaching people how to fly.

[@James-kk8dw]

You sound like you really know your shit. I learned from a group of pilots that were much better than my flight instructor .

[@pdquestions7673]

@@James-kk8dw The MEI in this case was super experienced, and I don't think I was a super duper instructor, but I am a big believer in smooth flying and learning to minimize control inputs and yaw oscillations, so - for me - basic handling of the airplane is way way more important than just reaching the critical peak of each menu maneuver. More than likely, this instructor knew exactly what happened, but was probably a little complacent in the entry phase... maybe distracted... or maybe at a very critical moment the student varied the pressure on the rudder. Or maybe maybe, the instructor was blocking the rudder (or opposing him on the rudder) and there was a failure of the rudder cable... That's one reason I would never stress the cables by opposing the inputs of a student. I'd rather just really watch them and coach them into entering these maneuvers with very smooth control inputs and minimal oscillations. And never afraid to just refuse to reach the critical phase of the maneuver if they can't first master basic control of the aircraft on one engine. A good way to lose students or get in trouble w the owners of a flight school, sadly...

[@pilot-debrief]

Thank you for sharing this with everyone. Great points!

[@NUSensei]

2:50: The "spelling mistakes" happen when old documents are scanned and converted to PDF. The optical recognition doesn't 100% identify text, so it tends to jumble letters when the text is automatically converted.

[@mikefendel]

40+ years ago while flight insturcting a multi-engine student in a Piper Seneca I prevented a situation that could have been similar to this accident. The student was doing great at single engine work and had always seen me cut a throttle or above 5,000' agl a mixture to simulate an engine failure. The fuel selectors in this aircraft are between the seats and again a a safe altitude I cut the fuel to the left engine without him noticing. When the engine failed, he freaked out and jammed his hand on both throttles full power. This caused the aircraft to immediately begin to roll towards the dead engine. I could not get him to release the throttles and quickly closed both mixtures to kill the power that was causing us to roll over, while also turning the fuel back on to the left engine fuel selector. As the aircraft fell through the rolling moment and began to come out of the roll, he released the throttles and I closed them both, restored the mixtures, and got both engines running again completing the recovery. Let all Flight Instuctors that don't know this already hear me clearly. The most dangerouse time with a student is when you believe he/she is beginning to "get it". Because that is when you might let up your monitoring their ever move. Don't fall victim to my mistake or worse.

[@FatRescueSwimmer04]

nice save mike!!!

[@jwarneke4200]

If what you have described happened in a Baron you would not be here to write about it.

[@maskcollector6949]

I think my personal main takeaway is to train someone knowingly over these situations before surprising them with anything like that. To be more open about it. And then even say hey I’m gonna surprise you at some point this flight and you’re not going to know when. That helps cultivate preparedness instead of panic. No shot I’m risking my life to teach someone otherwise, glad you were swift.

[@mikefendel]

I get your point but when 2 of my 3 engine shut downs occred in airline operations they were a surprise. In the real world you have to know how you will react/or respond to an unexpected event. Will you react and quickly without thought do the wrong thing, or will you repond after careful review of your situation and do the right thing. @@maskcollector6949

[@mikefendel]

@@maskcollector6949 when it happens in the real world there is no warning.

[@whatsthepointanymore]

I'm an engineering manager at an aircraft manufacturer. I've been playing your videos at my staff meetings because I think they're very informative. I've also been telling my comanagers to check out your channel too. You'd be surprised at how many people who are in the aerospace industry that aren't aviation enthusiasts. I think it's a great way to keep my employees aware that people are depending on us to make a good product.

[@MountainMan.]

Very wise you are.

[@TheCmc22]

Need any quality control tools? 😂

[@whatsthepointanymore]

@@TheCmc22 Gawd, I've dealt with so many QA systems in my career. R U industry?

[@TheCmc22]

@@whatsthepointanymore I work for a manufacturer but we mainly deal in hand tools, analyzers and sensors. Some DC control. Main customer base is aero/defense as well as medical. I was just messing but always happy to help if there’s a torque question

[@jamessicard6682]

Please Venmo the dude $250 for use of his videos at your meetings..

[@BH530711]

Your incorporation of the flight data-driven software imagery takes your debriefs to a new level of excellence, Hoover. Thanks!

[@pilot-debrief]

Thanks! I’m really enjoying using the software!

[@drewbola]

I don't fly but these debriefs are reassuring. I appreciate the fact that people are continuing to educate themselves in an effort to make our skies even safer.

[@hwinterr]

As a student pilot it’s one of the best tools to be able to fly safer and understand what causes problems.

[@soccerguy2433]

It's part of being a professional aviator.

[@AMZNColumbians]

Chad was a fantastic pilot. He earned his PPL and IR the same day on his 17th birthday. He became a commercial pilot on his 18th birthday. I flew with him as a flight instructor and he was almost flawless on every flight. Smooth on the controls. He never showed up unprepared to his lessons

[@billfly2186]

You're a professional pilot and a real pro at teaching. Well done Captain.

[@pilot-debrief]

I appreciate that!

[@psjasker]

This channel is becoming (or already has become) “must see” material for pilots, aspiring pilots and anyone involved in aviation safety. Thank you for this valuable public service.

[@RichardStanczak]

I would add to your list is anyone interested in any aspect of safety. Hoover’s debriefs have provided common sense safety lessons for anyone driving a car, cycling, hiking, canoeing, kayaking, and virtually any activity that involves knowledge, training, landing, etc. Non-pilots can learn a lot from these cases.

[@MattPouy]

This was the owner, chief instructor, and a student at the flight school Im going to in MA. Fly Lugu is an amazing program, and Rika (school owner) was a wonderful, positive role model for all of us at the program. She'll be missed greatly

[@pilot-debrief]

I’m sorry for your loss.

[@AdventureHat186]

Agreeded. What a great crew and Rika was such an asset to our aviation community. Bill was a skilled instructor with much talent. I didn't know the student, but from what I heard, he was a good pilot. All three will be dearly missed.

[@peglegjim57]

This is my home field as well, and our hearts are shattered in a hundred thousand pieces. 💔

[@kbkb6569]

All 3 were experienced. I have a hard time believing this was VCM. Let's let the investigators do their job. An aside, almost 800 people showed up to Rika's memorial. She was so, so love by anybody she touched.

[@TheBeingReal]

@@kbkb6569​​⁠Limited ways you can flat spin into the ground in a light twin.

[@mikewilson8749]

I am not a pilot (actually I cant fly at all now because of claustrophobia (severe) but I used to fly a lot in my younger days). I watch a lot of air accident videos (such as the flight channel) and am an aviation history buff but I have yet to find a channel that even remotely compares to yours for insight, theory, and actual facts in covering these mishaps. You have a knack for putting the data into a format that is easily understandable for us non-pilot types and presenting it in a logical progression. Speaking for myself you are now my goto for any "debrief" in regards to aviation accidents. Thank you for taking the time from your busy personal and professional life to create these informative videos.

[@tonydugal5275]

You and Blancolirio provide the very best analysis of aviation tragedies. Thanks.

[@pilot-debrief]

Glad to hear it! I appreciate that!

[@wilsonpickett3881]

No matter what is learned from the NTSB report, they entered a stall too close to the ground. If they were trying to do this for practice they made a terrible decision.

[@patrickchase5614]

WIth a light twin like the Baron there is no safe altitude to enter a spin. The rotational moment inertia is too high with those engines out on the wings. As another commentator has noted, once you get into a spin in one of those you're basically a test pilot.

[@jwarneke4200]

Altitude is not the issue. The Baron will enter an unrecoverable flat spin as proven by Beechcraft Test Pilots and many deceased instructors. It doesn’t matter if you are 2000’ or 10000’.

[@HEDGE1011]

Thank you, Hoover. I’ve seen several of your videos now and appreciate your analysis and explanations that everyone can learn from. I’m a former USAF pilot, and have been an airline pilot for 33 years now, and I’ve done a ton of instruction, check airman, and Designated Examiner/TCE work. I firmly believe in critique and self-critique as keys to improvement for people who take aviation safety seriously. I try to learn from my mistakes, but also from errors others have shared with me. I think you embody that ethos of critiquing the performance not the person. I always try to remember these people who pass away in accidents had real friends and families and I thank you for being respectful about their losses while teaching the lessons their mistakes reveal. Very well done, sir.

[@pilot-debrief]

Thank you so much for the kind words! It's always nice to get comments like yours. I greatly appreciate it!

[@BSsss603]

Juan Brown/ Blanco Lirio had a good de- brief as well. - Great work from both of you!!

[@pilot-debrief]

Thanks! He and I talked about this. Stay tuned for a collaboration between us in the future!

[@WilliamnWendySue]

Excellent work from both of you great guys! Former AF bro myself 👊🏼

[@CGriffinGo]

I grew up with my Dad having airplanes, starting with a Stinson at 21 he moved to other planes like Cessna, AeroCommander, etc. Until I recently found your channel I never realized the multitude of scenarios where things could go wrong. He always flew like it was a walk in the park ... I miss him.

[@Rob-ze1wi]

happiest day was when my old nan retired from his experimentals. i was one of the only ones that would go up with him.😅

[@sonoftherepublic9792]

Hoover, this is just next level analysis. I know it takes significant effort putting these debriefs together - thank you for all your efforts trying to keep our flying community safe.

[@TheIndyAuthorPodcast]

Thank you for another great debrief!

[@pilot-debrief]

You’re most welcome!

[@kevins260]

The pilot Chad was a part of our community at The Woodstock Academy in CT. We are a small community so this was shocking. He will be missed. As a pilot, I take comfort in knowing what happened.

[@wingmanjim6]

I continue to be impressed by the professionalism, compassion and excellent explanations that you demonstrate. Thank you !

[@pilot-debrief]

Wow, thank you!

[@pollylewis9611]

Thank you for all your hard work gathering information into this tragic loss, I really appreciate it and feel others could learn a lot, Thanks again, Polly!

[@pilot-debrief]

You’re welcome!

[@905Alive]

This is amazing because it shows how universal some things in life are, for example, I taught HVACR for 20 years, was in it for over 50, mishaps in HVACR like a building exploding, etc, are usually caused by human error, the error is caused by the arrogance of assuming you know it all and not reading and following the factory manual, THE INSTRUCTIONS. I would hear other instructors telling students "you adjust this, you tweak that" and never mention the installation or service manual. I worked for Carrier as well and taught for them, almost every call for tech support was because the person calling did not read the manual or the start up procedure. In the lab I would give my students print outs of the manuals of the units they were working on and show them how to get them online, and would tell them that the manufacturers spent countless hours writing these and ensuring they are correct and meet code because if they don't they are liable and they also hope that YOU WILL READ THEM. This is true for everything, your cars, appliances, planes, etc etc. If they had reread the manual for that plane.............

[@thomasmennella5501]

This accident happened quite close to me. Their flight path actually went right over my home airport. So sad to lose such experienced pilots this way. We must always be prepared for the worst case scenario and have a plan and a margin of safety for things not going as we planned.

[@leechampigny5127]

I learned how to fly at BAF, met one of the pilots quite some time ago. This one hit home hard.

[@bt25tvr93a]

Same here. Did some training with them but didn’t know the pilots personally however know many who do. To say it is shocking and tragic to see people you’ve sat in the same room with perish in an accident like this is an absolute understatement.

[@keithzulu5014]

True. But why did they not have such a plan?

[@Sophie-ts2wq]

7b2?

[@thomasmennella5501]

@@Sophie-ts2wq Yup. 7B2

[@gtr1952]

Thanks Hoover! I don't have anything to add around general Vmc, but I do have something stuck in my craw. A long time ago I was sitting in on some multi engine instruction being done by a very respected pilot/CFI. At one point he talked specifically about the Baron, and stalls. The important part is when it stalls, if its allowed to break L or R at all, the way the engine nacelle is mounted blanks all the air from the tail leaving little/no rudder or elevator control. This is the second Baron I can think of in the last year that has gone down like this. It just reminds me of what he said. 8( --gary

[@pilot-debrief]

Thanks for sharing that!

[@holywells]

It was always a pleasure, and a learning experience, to watch the incomparable Mr. Bob Hoover perform his engine out routine at air shows in his twin engine aircraft. He never missed a beat and would perform 4 and 8 point rolls with only the single engine running while the other engine was off and the prop feathered. His famous, and fantastic, videos are available on KZbin.

[@BenHogg07212]

Hey Hoover. I was once a student pilot (to get over my fear of flying). I am now an aviation enthusiast and wanted to tell you how much I enjoy your videos. You are a fantastic communicator… and make these videos with useful (and lifesaving information) all with sensitivity and compassion. I wish you were my instructor. Keep up the good work. Who knows how many lives you save with these videos.

[@TDCflyer]

*"here we go again"* This is a verbatim quote from the blancolirio channel, which most of you probably are fairly familiar with, on this very incident. I have never seen Juan so close to angrily yelling into his microphone. And I agree with him. The year has barely started and we are already at this point.

[@bkailua1224]

When we were doing VMC demos 50 years ago we had no idea of how DA will impact VMC. We also did this at low altitudes in very stable airplanes. Lucky we survived and retired at old age. Maybe the FAA needs to think about VMC training in sims. Might add some cost to training but might also be less accidents.

[@dwaynemcallister7231]

I recall the account of a ex Navy pilot, he hired another ex Navy pilot for charter work in a Baron, taking him up to check him out on the Baron, he pulls one throttle back on a engine, now at idle slowing down, chief pilot thinking ok he is ex Navy he must be good right? now at VMC 1500' AGL. chief pilot is thinking he better not try to hold alt. here, but he didn't let the nose drop, in a second they were spinning, chief cuts other engine takes the controls, opposite rudder down on the elevator, but its spinning flat, he remembers his Navy training on how to get out of a spin in this situation, he starts rocking the stick forward and back soon this has the nose down and spin rotation stopped but he is pointing straight down and not much altitude remaining, he knows if he pulls back hard it will stall again, so he gently pulls back just enough that they don't stall, the tree's are unavoidable though, the Baron goes into the tree's breaking apart the plane as well a lot of lumber, both pilot's survive though after significant time in the hospital. The chief pilot said his thought's were he would never see his wife again. Flying Mag. 1979 I forget which month. Very condensed version

[@canadianroot]

You’ve got a thing for apostrophe’s, I see.

[@galacticminx]

6:29 An aft C.G. also makes a spin flatter, and potentially unrecoverable. The amount of fuel might make a difference too, because in a spin it will move to the outboard end of the tanks, creating a lot of angular momentum that needs to be countered by the rudder in order to stop it.

[@daleolson3506]

She was a heavy weight too

[@alysc.8251]

Thanks!

[@pilot-debrief]

You’re welcome!

[@JamesWilliams-en3os]

I really appreciate your preliminary debrief today, Hoover. I subscribed to your channel a couple months ago because as a private pilot with a hugh level,of concern for aviation safety, your channel is one of the best learning tools on KZbin. I’ve watched many aviation safety channels, but there are only 3-4 that I consider meet my criteria for professional learning aids, and yours is on that short list. Thank you for doing this. Also, thank you for plugging FlySto today. I signed up today.

[@alyonanefrit9159]

Thank you for you videos, Hoover! I am not a pilot yet, I have just started ground lessons. And way before I made a decision to study, I watched dozens of your debriefs. Still watch regularly. Thank you! Very appreciate your efforts and knowledge you share with us.

[@pilot-debrief]

That is awesome! Good luck on your journey!

[@ramoneortiz]

Interesting video. New CFI (SEL) subscriber. The debriefs you provide are very informative for all pilots. Keep up the good work and greetings from Las Vegas, NV.

[@yveaux500]

As a CFI I find these video's always educational no matter how many hours one may have. And thanks for the flysto reference. Very handy.

[@rogerrees9845]

Thank you for highlighting another tragedy in such an analytical and sympathetic way.... Roger... Pembrokeshire UK

[@HT-ue6qb]

Thank you! This is very useful information. I'm deeply saddened to hear another loss of crew, but we have to learn from this. I fly VFR day SEP as a private pilot and all your analysis is essential reminder of procedures, situational awareness, being cautious and always being ahead of the operations. Thank you for educating us!

[@chosenone76]

I can’t get enough of your videos. I’m not a pilot, but I find aviation fascinating and I enjoy how well you explain everything so that it’s easy to understand. Clear, concise and very informative and always damn interesting. Thanks for your hard work!

[@timslayton6329]

Love the detailed facts you present, Hoover.

[@sergeidreizin6826]

Thanks!

[@pilot-debrief]

You’re welcome! I appreciate the support!

[@dslemaire]

According to the NTSB preliminary report it appears now that icing was likely a factor in the loss of control. "Airframe icing was observed on the leading edge of both wings and horizontal stabilizers, both engine nacelles, and the leading edge of the rudder. Ice was also observed on the front face of one of the left engine’s propeller blades, and on the nav antenna located on the vertical stabilizer." From the flight data it may have looked to us like a VMC demo, but icing indicated on the aircraft would suggest otherwise. The NTSB and the FAA will eventually have a better idea of what most likely occurred.

[@PsRohrbaugh]

To add on the my previous comment: imagine this. A $2500 box that has a camera facing forward (steam gauge view plus pilot activity), audio, combined with a data logger that captures flight surfaces, engine parameters, and any other relevant data. It automatically over writes after 3 hours. I think that's completely feasible, affordable, and doable. Create an aircraft interface similar to OBDII in cars for airplanes (for data input) and you buy an off the shelf recorder input, subsidized by the FAA if necessary, but it's an open standard so anyone can make one as long as they comply. No pilot needs a nanny. But if you go down, you need a paper trail.

[@PsRohrbaugh]

Am now a subscriber

[@pilot-debrief]

Very interesting idea! We have to do something!

[@douglaswhitcomb9729]

Another very tragic accident here. It has been many years since I provided multi-engine instruction, however, as I remember the Barons are particularly susceptible to the stall/spin before reaching VMC. Compared to an Aztec or Seminole etc. You also bring up some very important points about having the 5000’ AGL minimum before these VMC demos and for the MEI to block the rudder out before full travel. CG, of course, is a huge factor here. Thanks again for your efforts and support of aviation safety.

[@donallan6396]

I completed my multi training in a Beech Travelair 40 years ago. Having done numerous spins in C- 150's , both the instructor and I were fully cognizant of the potential for disaster, so we were super super cautious.

[@timcowden3513]

Another excellent video Hoover! I own a Baron of similar vintage and regardless of what the NTSB investigation reveals, your video provides an excllent lessson for all of us.

[@charleschandler9855]

I personally enjoy it when you discuss the more technical aspects of flight, like CG and moments of energy and so forth. These are the less obvious aspects of flight that go beyond merely how to move the throttle and the flight controls, and it's extremely interesting. I'm sure you were very thoroughly trained on such things in your military career.

[@hughscot]

I was a commercial pilot and CFI, SEL. Watching this video and others including Dan's I am amazed at how little I knew. Very scary indeed.

[@elcheapo5302]

Very well presented. It was more than 20 years ago I did VMC demos as a student, and I can remember my instructor blocking the rudder for the maneuver. I can still see the nose swinging over. Beware the red radial line!

[@pilot-debrief]

Thanks for sharing your experience. I’m glad it’s one you never forgot!

[@eltomas3634]

I like your name, amigo! Yep. The real shocker in this case is the knowledge and skill that were onboard yet still something went terribly wrong. The maneuver is a demonstration of the loss of control as the aircraft approaches vmc, not actually losing control. During the checkride, it's almost a guarantee the examiner is not going to allow the applicant to get near vmc and the recovery can be done when a loss is demonstrated. There's no need to take it to the limit.

[@elcheapo5302]

@@pilot-debrief Thank you. I enjoy your videos. I still hold my CFI, CFII, and MEI, but haven't used them in a long, long time. Been flying jets for almost two decades--and still keep in touch with the man who taught me how to fly.

[@TJFlyingAdventures]

Another great debrief! ... Love that you are using FlySto to analyze what "really" happened!

[@Hossak]

Great video. So sad to hear of the loss of so many good people. May they all rip and condolences to their families and loved ones.

[@dasvidanjatv]

Love seeing the consistent content! love the videos aswell!

[@pilot-debrief]

Glad you enjoy it! I’m trying my best!

[@dogfoodking]

Thanks Hoover. You are upping your game and your video's keep getting better!

[@budm9982]

I'm not a pilot yet I appreciate the time and effort you put into these presentations, Hoover. Very well done and easily understandable even to a non-pilot.

[@TheAMCAST1]

Hoover....I really enjoy your content and watch it daily..Former AF NDI troop and my first airframe was F-15s @ RAF Lakenheath.....Miss every minute working on it....Keep going bro you got it......

[@lawrencerenew8668]

Love your debriefs Hoover. Between you and MentourPilot your the best, on flight breakdowns and mishaps. Keep up the great work❤️🇺🇸

[@pilot-debrief]

Thanks, will do! I appreciate the nice compliment!

[@Silver_wolf68]

My new favorite channel, thanks for the content!

[@thierryblatti7628]

Thanks Dear Hoover. A lot to learn in your channel. Clear explanations. As well there is no pilot blamed.

[@Macsnowflake18]

Rika is my stepmom and this has been the hardest loss of my life . Married to my dad for almost 20 years . Seeing this video pop up on my KZbin is super eerie 😞

[@deathbymonkeys]

Sorry for your loss

[@Estiallina]

So very sorry for your loss.

[@ryanaines6617]

Sends shivers down my spine, I did my multi and multi IFR in a Baron 55, to me it was steep learning curve coming out of a C-172 but really fun once you weren’t playing catch up with the plane .

[@trulymichiganaerialrandycl4873]

I have hundreds of hours in our Cessna 172. I always watch your videos. Great job!

[@graycloud057]

Hoover, My wife and I have really been enjoying your debriefs. Bravo Zulu!

[@minnesotatomcat]

If I were doing maneuvers that required a minimum of 5000 feet I think I’d probably go up to 7 or 8, why not? Things can happen fast, better to have more time for recovery if something unexpected happens. Curious to see what their official report shows 👍

[@barbarachambers7974]

I think someone once said the more altitude you have, the more time to recover.

[@mrbill6765]

Reminds me of the three worthless things in flying. One of them is altitude above you.

[@pilot-debrief]

As altitude increases, air density decreases. This results in a lower VMC and a higher stall speed. You’d stall before reaching VMC. This is why it’s important to understand the relationship between the two and how different variables effect each of them. More altitude isn’t always a better thing.

[@davidwhite8633]

@@pilot-debriefI always thought stall IAS was constant with altitude and only Vmc decreased with altitude ?

[@BerkeleyTowers]

​@@pilot-debriefwhilst that might be scientifically true, the effect is negligible over the few thousand feet we're talking about here. Especially when set against the context of having an extra few thousand feet beneath you to recover from a potential spin/stall. I don't know the regs in your area but we operated to a hard 3000ft agl deck. That, in itself, necessitated such manoeuvres commencing a good few thousand above that. Looks like they gave Murphy all the encouragement he needed. ATB Paul. (ex RAF QFI, current Major skipper).

[@alysc.8251]

I am still saddened by this event. I live 3 miles from BAF. I flew with both Bill and Rika. Rika and I did our initial flight training together. The "student" on board was apparently getting some hours in the Baron in order to meet insurance requirements to fly for a corporation. THANKS FOR YOUR CHANNEL. SUCH GREAT INFORMATION.

[@uclamutt118]

I’m an early PPL student and love your videos, Hoover! Thanks for making such great educational content!! 👍🏽

[@pilot-debrief]

Glad you like them! Thanks for watching!

[@neatstuff1988]

Other than that little pilot and command issue.We had you do a great job hoover... Thanks for sorting these out for us.😢😅😊

[@trevcessna1723]

It looks to me like it just hit the ground in a flat stall without the spin. Thanks Hoover for another excellent video.

[@pilot-debrief]

This is why I shared the footage from the other crash. The ADS-B data might not show the spin due to the rapid heading changes. The Newburg ADS-B data by itself doesn’t look like a spin, but when you look at the video that a bystander filmed from the ground, you can see the plane clearly in a spin. I’m glad you enjoyed the video!

[@truthserum5310]

The Baron was indeed in a flat spin. Rear CG will further induce a well developed flat spin. It's crazy to do a VMC demo with a rear passenger.

[@tomsapp73]

Love the videos…very thoughtful commentary. Thanks Hoover!

[@gwiyomikim5988]

As a non flyer I don’t really understand much of what you discussed in this video, but it’s fascinating, and tragic, how 3 experienced pilots could get into unrecoverable trouble so quickly.

[@flyingfox8360]

I'm a 141 student, I spent 8 years in the navy and man, looking at the ME training i have coming up in the next year has me nervous, all i know is when its time for me to do this VMCA demo, itll be only me and the instructor, and all the gear kept in the rear is going to be as far forward as i can get it.

[@malcolmwhite6588]

Phew! I had to read your comment twice I initially thought it said I’m 141-year-old student! But part 141. All the best, but the more you can study including good quality information such as hoover presents here, and the more practice, the better you’ll be and the safer and consequently better pilot, you will be.

[@jwarneke4200]

Learn in the appropriate airplane, do not do the VMC demo in the Baron, PERIOD!

[@flyguy68]

Great Explanation, I was figuring something like this must have happened. Chad worked with me but we also flew together. I spoke to him a day prior about getting some training in a baron just for more practice. He was an excellent pilot and a cautious one at that. Terrible losses of 3 good aviators. God bless.

[@kevinparker1948]

I love you dude. I am an aviation enthusiast and I understand everything that you say. You are so clear and concise and so respectful and thorough in your explanations. I watch your videos every day.

[@DM-hd4xm]

Excellent debrief Hoover, as always precise.

[@GeorgeSemel]

I never instructed in a Baron 55, but I have in Piper Aztecs, Cessna 310, and the Piper Seneca; I will not go into the twin turboprops like the King Airs, Beech 99s, and the Beech 18s I also flew. From the start, I always treated the VMC demonstration as a misnomer; it's not a demonstration; it's recognition and recovery from the condition. I used the partial rudder in my teaching. Also, I want altitude; I will not do the training under 5000 agl. Also, if the winds are too high and there is turbulence, I always tell my students that this maneuver is like handling a venomous snake; if you are not paying attention, it will bite you and won't be pretty. I don't do those with anybody on the airplane but me and the student. Oh, and I have my students do a Weight and Balance, something I think gets forgotten. You should do one for every flight. When flying a light twin or any multi-engine aircraft. You never want to get slower than Vx se. Give yourself a good fudge factor. If you don't stall the airplane, then you will not get into a spin. That is the other thing: the lack of spin recognition and recovery has pretty much gone by the wayside in Civil Pilot training. A bad day to be sure.

[@davidwhite8633]

The Army used to do initial multi training for F/W pilots in the B-55 decades ago , and after losing one too many in OEI stalls they got their test pilots to check it out. The conclusion was that if corrective action was not taken within 1 second of departure successful recovery was quite likely not possible ! The Army handbook had a big warning placed in it , but I don’t know whether Beech ever changed the civilian POH --I’ve never instructed in the B-55 either. There was an article about this in Aviation Safety magazine a long time ago.

[@pauljoseph8338]

I like that you’re doing recent tragedies now.

[@wendyvic4046]

Wow! So many factors involved here, and the first that really jumped out at me was when you mentioned a passenger in the rear. I immediately thought "Oh dear Lord, please don't tell me they were practicing engine out procedures with a rear pax!" And then the very low AGL altitude, if they were practicing those procedures. And THEN, to top it all off, possible inclement weather, to include possible icing and possible gusts if a front was moving through. We may never know, but I do know that I would never have been practicing anything like that with those conditions. I hope they determine the exact cause.

[@corallewis3093]

Ty so much for your hard work..

[@RaceLine25]

I’ve been binging all your videos, they’re great. Missing your purple light for your background jets though lol. Keep up your great and important work.

[@DJ99777]

Thanks Hoopher! Very comprehensive.

[@BillMetter]

You do an amazing job with your analysis of these incidents. You reminded me of Juan from the blancolirio channel. Both of you guys are excellent and I’m sure you both have saved other pilots from repeating similar mistakes. Take care and keep up the excellent videos.

[@helmerkappert5152]

Very good briefing! Appreciayed!

[@PsRohrbaugh]

With how cheap electronics have gotten, I think we need "black boxes" in all aircraft. Period. (flight data and voice, maybe even video). FAA will need to play ball so certifications don't balloon the price, but you could put together a data logger with a raspberry pi for a few hundred dollars, and just add a go-pro on top of that. Put in some legislation where they can't be accessed unless there's a crash. But the technology is cheap enough we need this sort of data collection. I should be able to see every flight control, down to the voltage of the DC bus, the temperature of every cylinder, and what was going on in in the cabin. It's not 2000 anymore. We have the technology. Given the number of mishaps it's necessary.

[@pilot-debrief]

Thanks for your support! I don’t know about video in every aircraft but flight data would certainly help with mishap analysis. The ADS-B data is also very helpful but using that combined with some debriefing software like I showed can go a long way towards helping instructors teach better and that improves the students and so on. Only time will tell and hopefully things improve!

[@PsRohrbaugh]

@@pilot-debrief ADS-B is much better than nothing, but we can log electronics for so cheap! It doesn't even need to have control, just monitor. That should keep prices down. But there's no reason to avoid capturing the data. Thanks for the reply!

[@PsRohrbaugh]

@@pilot-debrief to add on to my previous point (and other superchat you replied to) devices which can log dozens of parameters multiple time per second cost less than $100. Yeah, it needs to be more durable to be a "black box", but it's SO cheap. Less than the fuel for one cross country flight. There has to be a way to meet in the middle.

[@PsRohrbaugh]

@@pilot-debrief imagine simply legislating every plane needs a gopro facing forward. No data logging. Just a one hour video loop out the windscreen and of the gauges. That's a $300 cost. It'd solve so many riddles from general aviation to airlines.

[@roltyd22]

I admire you guys for what you do i love watching your videos very interesting and the stuff you have to remember and execute when becoming a pilot is mind blowing

[@melindaharrington7588]

Thank you.

[@gonetoearth2588]

Fantastic analysis. Great work on this excellent channel. Thanks!!

[@MarkKarl-e6i]

So FYI, I am the owner of several aircraft at Fly Lugu, (not the Baron) I am an aerospace engineer, and a pilot since 1977. This video is much better than others. We do need to wait for the NTSB but it is extremely doubtful this was a VMC demo. Pretty sure this was just a familiarization flight with a stall demo gone bad. A really sad accident and I lost friends....

[@Iflyagrasshopper]

A reminder that aviation doesn’t care who is at the controls or how many hours they have… some mistakes will take you out… thanks for making these videos.

[@stpello]

Hey Hoover I like your videos, I have a 1981 E55 Baron , I can tell you when doing vmc sing engine before you run out of rudder you better pull the good engine and lower nose , the Baron will roll over if you push it .

[@pilot-debrief]

Thanks for the info! I appreciate you sharing that with everyone!

[@Flig_debrief]

Thanks!

[@davidp2888]

I'm not a pilot and know next to nothing about aviation but your debriefs make it easier to understand why things happened. The debriefing tool really puts it into a relatable context.

[@major__kong]

The tool makes certain assumptions like the nose is pointed along the velocity vector. That's roughly true in unstalled flight, the difference being the angle of attack on the wing typically a few degrees. In stalled flight, especially flat spins, that difference can be tens of degrees. In the final seconds of the videos, the nose is pointed down. That was mostly true of the Piper crash, but the baron was in a flat spin. You can tell by how it impacted. So the last few seconds of the baron video in that tool aren't accurate in terms of aircraft attitude.

[@andymanthey6695]

I've been overly harsh on you,especially the last 1, that's why I removed my comment. So I'm sure what I complained about had no bearing on this debrief I'd like to say I truly enjoyed everything about this 1. Enjoyable beginning to end with your expertise and facts added in. We'll done sir

[@tomjones2348]

Excellent presentation. Yes, I'm sure it's uncomfortable to do these prior to getting a final report on the incident, but you videos could save a life (which, I certain is the reason you do them).

[@FLGUI]

As a ME fight instructor, I think it is important, to show how the aircraft behave close to VMC. For ME training I always show the beginning of what could happen below VMC by deacreasing rudder input above VMC, so I an keep a sufficient speed and full control of the aircraft

[@perfectscotty]

Very in-depth video, Thanks.

[@SkydivingKiwi]

Fantastic video Hoover, thanks for sharing :)

[@christiancruz4533]

You figure it out. Great analysis. Such tragedy.

[@huracanmedia1661]

Excellenet analyis and always appreciate the details. Seems a bit of a stretch that three very experienced pilots would attempt a VMC well below the min altitude in case something did go wrong and as noted having a 3rd passenger changes all of it making recovery even more difficult?. Tragic for sure and since there was no known mayday unlikely it was an engine failure the spin would indicate a stall and this aircraft has excellent glide capabilities in the event of engine failures

[@enshk79]

This one really breaks my heart. Damn.

[@gcorriveau6864]

The fact that so many accidents are related to VMC demonstrations indicates the NEED to incorporate Flight Simulator Training into all curricula. Simulation should be used for more than IFR training. The visual systems and flight model accuracy of X-Plane (et. al.) are so good and inexpensive it is high time that flight schools adopt similar training models used as are used by airlines and military programs. Thanks for sharing this.

[@justinwalts4133]

Good friend of our family. So sad

[@rixxy9204]

When they got into the dive they still had 3000 AGL. It's definitely not high enough for a maneuver but I feel it may have been possible to get out if they had moved quickly. I expect there was more to this incident: maybe the student when into a shocked/confused state and stared jamming on controls, or the opposite - freeze up and lock the plane in the spin. In either case, without corrective action within seconds, the result is death... they just didn't have the altitude to make mistakes or wait for a decision.