Rogue Flight Instructor Gets Two Students Killed!

A flight instructor got two foreign students killed during a routine cross-country flight when his actions resulted in the aircraft breaking apart in midair and plummeting to the ground. The NTSB placed the blame on the instructor, but that was only half of the story.
Here's another video about a flight instructor that got his student killed under very different circumstances:
• Flight Instructor Gets...
#aviation #flying #pilotdebrief
This was a really tough debrief because this flight instructor was a good person and probably would have made a great airline pilot if someone had just stopped him along the way and given him a thorough debrief about the things he was doing.
The student in the front seat was from Italy and he was a foreign-certificated private pilot that had 119 total hours but only 1 hour of flight time in the make and model of aircraft they crashed in. The student in the back was also from Italy and was just along for the flight in order to get more exposure to the radio communications since English wasn't his primary language.
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[@pilot-debrief]

For those of you angry or upset that I said Robbie was a good guy, please understand that it’s possible to be a decent person and still make terrible mistakes. He made some really bad decisions but I feel like no one ever took the time to explain that to him. With a limited amount of experience in the aircraft, he likely didn’t fully understand the risks he was taking. He probably never should’ve been upgraded to an instructor. Our goal with any pilot debrief should be to catch these issues when they first happen and counsel/rehabilitate the pilot to make them better. If we try and they knowingly disregard those efforts, then that’s when we need to stop them from flying. I’m not sure the extent to which people tried to counsel him, so I don’t want to judge too much. Watch this other video about a different flight instructor that got his student killed: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qJDdimN4iNCfd6c This was a tough debrief to make and my heart goes out to the family and friends of the victims. This tragedy never should have happened and I hope others are able to learn from this debrief in order to prevent future mishaps.

[@kneel1]

just a reminder that the internet is ALWAYS upset. and ridiculous. so you're fine

[@robinj1052]

I think you did exactly the right thing: be nice about him where it is due, but be critical when it needs to be. Critical but fair. I do not believe in building experience by cramping in as much airtime into as little possible days. This does not apply to flying only, it applies to everything. You need time to process all the information you gather during practice. To see the result, you need to wait till the paint has dried. Going too fast through the learning curve, does not mean you'll be better at anything.

[@banjo2019]

I think you do a commendable job of being respectful to the pilots you are critiquing. But I also think you should pay less attention to the toxic social media mobs that leave obnoxious comments. Just do your thing.

[@singleproppilot]

I don’t remember everything I learned in ground school, but my instructor did communicate that exceeding g-loading limits of the airplane could kill me. Do they not teach that anymore? I think it’s less likely that he didn’t know and more likely that he thought he could do it anyway and get away with it. In my experience, when someone says “he’s a good guy”, they’re just basing it on their first impression and not on really knowing the inner qualities of that person. Just because he was personable does not make him a “good guy”. Obviously, I never knew the man, but this kind of intentional and reckless disregard for rules meant to ensure his and his passengers’ safety hints at a narcissistic personality.

[@markusallport1276]

Thank you.

[@TacitusR]

With thirty-nine years of aviation experience wearing many different hats, and now a retired Airbus captain and former chief pilot I have a different opinion of Robbie. Robbie held the life of others in his hands and knowingly gambled with their lives, ultimately taking their lives needlessly. To his friends he may have been likable, but he was also a showboating jackass lacking integrity.

[@Littlebigbot]

"Integrity"? You sure that's the right word? Was he dishonest? Poor judgement and moral principle are two different attributes altogether.

[@captainnathan1164]

​@@LittlebigbotI mean it wasn't an ignorance issue, he knew what he was doing and still did it so how is it not an integrity issue? He did things that proved he had little care or respect for others well being which sounds like someone with no integrity, right?!

[@charlesfaure1189]

@@Littlebigbot Correct. This was not a simple poor judgment event, although if he thought he could keep getting away with that kind of stupidity he certainly lacked judgment. It was much more a lack of human decency event. It was a bad character event. Risking other people's lives for the sake of getting your jollies is definitely somewhere on the psychopath spectrum.

[@MrJudges4u]

Your right…call a spade a spade. All those rapid pace certifications make zero sense. Whoever certified him so quickly should also be investigated. It appears he did a snap roll in a piper…deadly mistake and the worst headwork ever. He killed two innocent people.

[@MrJudges4u]

I also have a 30 year USMC background of flying primarily helicopters. Top Gun graduate. That former Marine (RIP) was what we call a “Hot Dog” in the NAVAL aviation community.

[@TerribleFire]

Any instructor that does a deliberate spin without a preflight brief has no place in the cockpit

[@singleproppilot]

Well, he’s not in the cockpit anymore. I think he got thrown out when the front of the airplane broke off.

[@charlesfaure1189]

...and is not "a good person." Didn't give a dam about the lives that were in his hands. Wanted their admiration and his jollies and risked their lives to get it.

[@NewscasterNews4]

@@singleproppilotsince his girlfriend and the system didn’t want to reprimand him life took care of the problem and fired him on the spot

[@xiro6]

He is not a good person, the school is not a good school, and the wife is is not a good instructor either. And neither of all of them are good persons, knowing what he was doing and not stopping it. They can sue me for saying what they are.

[@johnschlottman619]

Things inappropriate in a cockpit: 1) Antics 2) Pranks 3) Stupidity 4) Language / Culture barriers 5) Get-There-Itis 6) Any kind of distraction from flying the goddamn plane Which allows you extrapolate yet a seventh inappropriate item: 7) Any kind of distraction from flying the goddamn plane

[@fun0537]

What is scary to me is that pilots like him are doing things like this and damaging the aircraft. The next person that flies the plane ends up paying the price.

[@michaelhansen7516]

Exactly. Hoover's sticking to the let's all learn from this and be civil. But this was not a nice guy. He was self-important ass hat. Imagine doing stunts at speeds where the plane is designed break up, with passengers on board!

[@PsRohrbaugh]

"drive it like it's a rental" isn't great with aircraft

[@mikoto7693]

I was thinking that too. He was doing stunts and acrobatics that the planes weren’t rated for and didn’t tell the aircraft owners. One of the future pilots or students could have paid the price for his idiocy months later.

[@palbi]

No doubt they did detailed structural inspections of all aircraft used at the school following this incident.@@mikoto7693

[@av8rgrip]

This is what worries me about GA aircraft. Bunch of wanna be fighter pilots flying beyond their own and their aircraft’s limits.

[@MassimilianoChiani]

Andrea was a member of our aeroclub in Italy. We host a memorial with his parents every year since that day.

[@Forced2DoThis1]

Sad....My condolences.

[@AnonyMous-jf4lc]

You left out the issue of other instructors not reporting his behavior up the chain. There is ZERO room for people that push the envelope or take risks in GA, Instruction, and commercial flight. He should have been grounded by his peers and leadership.

[@everythingpony]

So if I get a ticket, the president has to know?

[@AnonyMous-jf4lc]

@@everythingpony ok, since you want to, let's compare autos to aviation. If you are a commercial driver on company time and you get a traffic violation in a company vehicle it gets reported up the chain and you face disciplinary action. Aerobatics in a 172 is the equivalent of drifting a delivery van at 100 mph on the highway. Do I need to explain any further?

[@barfyman-bf3hw]

idiot@@everythingpony

[@alaskayoung3413]

What does GA mean?

[@AnonyMous-jf4lc]

@@alaskayoung3413 general aviation

[@jamesoncross7494]

I don't want my pilot to be aggressive, arrogant, and an adrenaline junkie. I want my pilot to be SULLY. Calm, Stoic, and humble..

[@malekodesouza7255]

Like you want your surgeon.

[@purrple.shadows]

No matter what his qualifications were, his actions were idiotic and criminal.

[@enginerdy]

Bob Hoover

[@CFITOMAHAWK2]

Ok captain where do you want to land? We are going to be IN THE HUDSON.

[@outcry27]

"There are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, but there are no old, bold pilots." Words that have served me well in my own CFI journey.

[@jaylasky4313]

At 29 his maturity level seems like it had risen to a level of a teenager, and I have trouble believing his ego wasn't out of control. I appreciate looking at all the holes in the cheese, but one of the holes was far larger than the rest.

[@spiderzvow1]

This is sadly common.

[@executivesteps]

If by a “teenager” you include 13 teen year olds, I agree.

[@pa60pilot]

“One of the holes in the cheese was bigger than the rest” - well said…I’ll be quoting this in the future.

[@wilsjane]

@@pa60pilot In his case, all hole and no cheese. LOL

[@charlesfaure1189]

This sort of personality disorder is a variety of perpetual immaturity. Not a teenager, and maybe not even an adolescent. His disregard for others seems truly pathological

[@hmccall3]

The fact that the second CFi told him not to do any funny stuff on the flight speaks volumes to the fact that he may have had a habit of pushing the envelope a bit too far. Prayers to all the families affected.

[@mountainof7]

a theme I'm picking up on is pilots in pilot-induced failures simply do NOT care when an appeal to safety is brought up.

[@singleproppilot]

And yet, she was dating this guy. Imagine dating someone who doesn’t care for safety or the property of others, and doesn’t get consent before exposing others to extreme risks. Not exactly great partner material.

[@CFITOMAHAWK2]

Breaking The Envelope. You cannot push the envelope over what is is.

[@adotintheshark4848]

my question is, why did he do the "funny stuff" when he knew the rear seat passenger wasn't buckled in?

[@michaelking42]

I noticed that too. It always concerns me when I hear my crew say things like, "that guy can fly the hell out of this chopper." You know he's not following the rules.

[@littleblackcar]

If someone gets fired for doing something you had to report, you didn’t get them fired-THEY got themselves fired.

[@dudeonbike800]

In America, the "tattle-tale" is criticized endlessly. It's a shame. I look at whistleblowers as heroes. Regulators too. Thanks to regulation and consumer safety protection, we save millions of lives because we have humanity.

[@amorl4520]

Being Fired saves lives.

[@canoe365]

Bringing truth to light is not the same as creating that truth. 'Telling' on someone who's doing wrong is not wrong.

[@jahnkaplank8626]

soon the FAA will mandate dashcams in all aircraft being used for flight training.

[@rickyd3215]

As a student pilot I rented a Cessna 152 for a solo flight. On the day I was to take it up a scheduled 100 hr. inspection performed, prior to my time slot, revealed a broken nose gear and my flight had to be canceled. Someone had likely made a hard landing and failed to mention the incident to anyone. Another time I had a flight scrubbed when there was an electrical issue while I was doing my run-up and smoke was filling the cabin. Due to these incidents and some close calls while in the air I decided I should buy a boat instead! A few months later a father and his son went down in a local lake when a wing came off the Cessna 172 that they were renting from the same company that I had been renting from. That boat provided my wife and I years of wonderful experiences together and I have never regretted my decision.

[@ScoutSniper3124]

As a young Ships Engineer, I took a job on a cable laying vessel out of Texas. When I reported aboard, the Chief Engineer was staggering drunk, and the bilge (water under the engine room) had a good 2 inches of oil (extremely flammable). I picked up my bags and walked right back off the vessel. When I called the company HQ and explained the situation, asking for another vessel, their reply was "He's one of our best Engineers, he's just going through some things". They refused a transfer, and I was stuck paying my airfare home. I reported the incident to the U.S. Coast Guard but have no idea what they did from there. Hopefully he didn't wind up getting someone (or everyone onboard) killed. There is ALWAYS room to walk away from a bad situation, your life is FAR more important than that particular opportunity.

[@AttorneyBCollins]

I did nearly the same being assigned a compressed gas bottle delivery truck with bad brakes and a sprung lift gate. I put in my 2 weeks notice after the first day and drove so slow I was an hour getting back the 3 days a week I had to drive it. No worth my life, or anyone elses.

[@alexmin4752]

What do they use for oil? Neither engine oil, mazout, diesel or jet fuel are extremely flammable. Gasoline is though but why wuould you even have it on a ship?

[@briancasey7693]

Judgement is the single most important thing while flying. He didn’t have it.

[@sarahalbers5555]

Truth!

[@mikoto7693]

It reminds me of a saying that I learned somewhere. “A pilot uses his superior judgment skills to avoid having to use his superior flying skills.” This guy didn’t fit that profile.

[@nickr5658]

You don’t learn good judgment with out experience. Experience takes time.

[@geoh7777]

No one vets pilots for whether they have competence, good judgment and good moral character.

[@dr_jaymz]

The thing is that judgement is subjective. The first time you push the limit you feel the risk is high... when nothing happens you judge the risk is lower when its the same. The more often you do this the less you think the risk is. Its not just that human factor, the fact that an aircraft didn't break up at 1.5x its load limit might lead you to believe it must be ok next time.... but aircraft structures don't work like that.

[@ellisandrews440]

Many many years ago I was taking my private licence. I was 19 at the time and one of the other students warned me of our common flight instructor who would turn off the fuel rather than pull back on the power to idle to replicate an engine issue for us to a practice PFL.’s . On my next flight I saw the flight instructor reach down between out seats in the Cessna 150 and turn off the fuel. Very shortly after the engine sputtered to a stop and I went into my PFL procedure and picked a grassy field and was lining up to land but it became obvious that I wasn’t going to clear a barbed wire fence. The flight instructor said he was taking control and then turned on the fuel and tried to start the engine which wasn’t starting up. About 100 meters before the fence the engine started and he was able to pull up and just clear the fence. That was certainly a close call and thinking back he was expecting me to land in the field or just skim over it before gaining altitude. He was also know to fly very low through the coulees chasing coyotes. About a year later he was killed in a flying accident luckily he didn’t take anyone with him. Neither one of us reported his actions to the head of the flight school. I guess as new students with only a few hours we didn’t know any better or in this case nobody reported it either. If any new student reading this please report reckless flying. I was lucky but these poor students weren’t.

[@alanaldpal950]

A “nice” or “decent” person does not risk (and kill) 2 other people, by abusing the trust they put in him for his own, egotistical, showing off of what a great pilot he is. The only teaching he appears to have been interested in is teaching his students how “talented” he was. As a certified pilot, and certified instructor, it is not like he did not know better, and yet did what he wanted anyway.

[@danielj8177]

Silver lining here is that he never made it to a major airline. Imagine if he would’ve taken that attitude towards aviation and had 250 lives in his care.

[@zebatrizon1]

What an absolute POS to risk peoples lives like that

[@daveg5857]

That's the definition of a bad person.

[@Magikarp-4ever]

Amen

[@chrishaugh1655]

I've learned over the course of my life, the people who are the most judgmental of others are usually projecting. But I'm sure all of you making these comments are perfect people with no skeletons in your closets.

[@zebatrizon1]

@@chrishaugh1655 womp womp

[@rrnonya5472]

Aviation doesn't appear to suffer fools lightly, but his girlfriend is a piece of work, she knew he was a trash can but never said a word.

[@srf2112]

A personal observation. I have had firefighters in my family for decades. One thing I've learned is that a good percentage of them get too used to being the overriding authority in situations and consider themselves and their decisions above reproach. When you think you can't make a mistake you definitely will and it will likely be a big one.

[@thomasdalton1508]

I suspect the mindset in the US Marines is pretty similar, so this guy had a double dose.

[@tombstone4986]

Don't stereotype or generalize us...

[@srf2112]

😂You just made my point for me boss man ..........................🤡

[@fidelcatsro6948]

My cat says the right word to describe is Arrogance

[@srf2112]

@@fidelcatsro6948 articulate pussy cat 😺

[@enginerdy]

I thought this guy was nuts for doing rolls in 172s, but I nearly spit out my cereal when you said he was doing SNAP ROLLS. What an absolute lunatic. It’s lucky no one else experienced a structural failure from one of the other airplanes he damaged. I hope they sold all the other planes he flew for scrap..

[@Magikarp-4ever]

Dude exactly when he said barrel roll in a 172 I was like, we got problems... And when he said a snap roll I was like... I know exactly where this is going....

[@TigerKhan1990]

You make a very good point. If you do a maneuver the a/c is specifically NOT to do, it's likely that you will damage it, and in a way that a preflight or other inspection is not likely to catch. Surviving the maneuver, and the aircraft subsequently "looking okay" is NOT sufficient evidence to conclude that it took no damage. Could be bending, microfractures, or simple out-of-spec cyclic loading, all of which can be disastrous for aircraft.

[@rsambrook]

Back when I was an instructor, I had a student who had trial lessons with a few schools and chose me as his instructor for his Private License. Why? The other instructors were showing off their ‘skills’ and scaring the guy. He considered me safe and professional. Many years later I am a A350 captain. Still safe and professional. Act as you mean to go on. (UK airline Pilot)

[@konewone361]

I always remember the old saying. There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, however there are no old, bold pilots.

[@JohnnyDanger36963]

​@@konewone361I'm an old bold pilot,hell I have a bar in the cockpit but I never.fly drunk,just professionally buzzed.

[@maxsmith695]

Many years ago, I was taking flying lessons in a Midwest city, and my flight instructor called in sick, so I took my lesson with a younger instructor. We flew over a small lake where people were water skiing and from about 4,000 feet he put the plane into a dive for fun. He got the attention of a lot of folks on the ground and in the water. I quit flying school after that.

[@timbiros2021]

You should try again. There are many professional flight instructors out there that don't need to showboat. Many are also willing to ease any anxious students into the flying world gently. My first 10 hours of flight were the most terrifying of my life, but now I am a CFI, thanks to a good patient instructor. You just need to find an instructor you are comfortable with.

[@Global8001]

I used to be a flight instructor here in Canada. I’m not the best of pilot but as instructors, we have to be role model to our students. Here are some examples of I believe should be expected from instructors. Once I had a European client, right after landing, he unfastened his seat belt. I scolded him about this unacceptable behaviour and he never did it again, 30 years later he remembers this moment. On another occasion, the (carb heat) did not work on a twin engine Beech Duchess, I cancelled the flight with my client and used this event as a decision making process regarding the minimum equipment required for flight (MEL), even though we did not fly that day, I still charged my client for instructional time. Years later he became a high time airline pilot and again remembers vividly this moment anytime he has to make difficult decisions. We all need to be professional from day one and remain this way all our life.

[@CLdriver1960]

Agreed. As a former instructor myself, I also tried to promote a sense of safety and professionalism to my students. BTW, nice YT handle. The Global was my favourite type rating. 👍

[@noturnleftunstoned72]

Life isn't a scene from "Top Gun". No room for cowboy tactics, especially while teaching!?

[@unbearifiedbear1885]

I remember my Grandad driving me home from school one day when I was very little.. I undid my seat belt before he'd stopped the car. Seeing this, he braked *hard* making me fall forward into the footwell all crumpled up lol He looked at me sternly and told me *never* undo the belt til the engine is off Let's just say I never forgot the lesson 😂❤

[@EneTheGene]

​@@unbearifiedbear1885That's a great lesson :D

[@jareddahlseid551]

Well said! Discipline is priceless.

[@JP-wg3uq]

An airline pilot/colleague of mine died doing loops in his small airplane. I was surprised, because he was such a talented person. Another colleague said he was not at all surprised, for the very same reason. All that talent caused him to exceed safe operating boundaries that all pilots should adhere to regardless of the thrills enjoyed by exceeding them.

[@luv2charlie]

If they wanted to do aerobatics, why not get training, certification, and buy an actual aerobatics plane!???!

[@michaelking42]

I stopped flying with a CFI in his Cessna 150 when I found out he'd performed a loop in it. I saw the video and never got back in that plane. In fact, I stopped pursuing my fixed wing license at that point, but mainly because I got too busy as a commercial helicopter pilot.

[@PRH123]

@@luv2charlie there isn’t actually any certification needed to perform aerobatic maneuvers…. training is offered voluntarily, and of course it only makes sense, but it’s not actually required… “You do not need any special license, rating, or certification to conduct aerobatic flight (interchangeably referred to as acrobatics). 14 CFR 91.303 provides the restrictions on aerobatic flight, none of which are a particular license, rating, certification, or endorsement.”

[@vedymin1]

If it was an aerobat then it prolly could do loops and stuff ?

[@TonboIV]

Old saying: A truly superior pilot uses his superior judgment to avoid situations that might require superior flying.

[@NETWizzJbirk]

I am learning to fly now in a 172. Watching this makes me think Robbie was unaware that it is possible to break an airplane in flight. My instructor always talks about flying the airplane within safe parameters, such as not over speeding it in an emergency descent, which is something on the syllabus for the private pilot that we covered. We also talked about deploying flaps can potentially damage an airplane, if your airspeed is too fast as shown on the airspeed indicator. He never does anything without describing exactly what we will be doing. I’m very lucky that my instructor embodies demeanor of professionalism every time. He’s also very clear that we must treat every aircraft as if we are the owner, even though it is a rental. He said that means that it cannot be treated like a Rent-A-Car often gets treated by the general public. That pilots must be better.

[@charlesfaure1189]

He was obviously aware. He disregarded advice. It was the danger that was giving this person the adrenaline rushes. Look at his career path! There's a pattern there.

[@j_taylor]

As you say, this is Intro to Flying stuff. And also tested to get your license. When he got his PPL and CFI tickets, he was certainly aware that aircraft have limits. Also when he got hired at the school. And when he began concealing his actions from the owner. We can't know what was in his head that day, but he had previously convinced several examiners that he knew damn well about aircraft and pilot limitations.

[@fidelcatsro6948]

You never know!Never going to rent a plane again!

[@j_taylor]

@@fidelcatsro6948 If you're not confident you can preflight an aircraft, then consider not flying until you can. Even non rental aircraft can become damaged or have parts fail.

[@Taken2Serious4Life]

It was my thought, too, that maybe he was unaware that planes are rated for limits of various maneuvers, and stress fractures are the least of the problems if you push them beyond their capabilities. However, he knew damn well and was just "too immature", or had little dick syndrome.

[@kirknewton100]

This brought back a lot of heart break for me. I introduced a guy to gliding many years ago. A retired RAF Aircrew guy. He turned out to thank me time and time again. He went solo, then gained a G1 position. This meant he could fly students, not teach but introduce them to flying. Years later I was attending a combined Easter Camp and this guy flew for the other Squadron we were with. It was 2014. The RAF VTS had gone through a number of changes and flying to high standard was the letter of the day. This particular Squadron was under the eyes of some very important people, our Squadron was to report any misgivings to higher authority. During our two weeks camp we reported four incidents and at one briefing I even warned the Squad Staff that they had to "up there game" if they wanted to congito opperate, or it was possible they would be closed. I was ignored, dispite my higher rank. Next day my friend that I had introduced to flying took a student flying. He got too 2000ft. Left the circuit and started to fly down wind from the field. We have to go through an aerobatic course at our main training school which is based 300 miles South. (we're in the UK). So it was quite a moment when his glider was witnessed by the Duty Instructor of the day doing a loop. Not just one.... because when we tried to radio the pilot, he switched off his radio and did another loop! When he eventually landed I asked him point blank if he had attended an aerobatic course. No was the answer. I checked his aircraft and his radio had been switched off. He also said... "he was their to fly and enjoy HIS flying" The Duty Instructor was a young guy, Newton the role and he said we needed to report the incident. I said to the lad.... "no, I will do the investigation and report it myself" I told the pilot involved that what he had done was wrong and it would be reported. We never spoke again. Four months later two regular RAF Officers came to my home and carried out an investigation. I asked them if they had spoken to the pilot involved, they said they had and he had been informed he would never fly again and was removed from the Squadron. A few weeks later I received a horrible horrible letter from his wife accusing me of destroying the one thing her husband enjoyed and lived for, his flying. That she would never speak to me again and in words I won't use I was a horrible person for what I had done. I live with this decision to this day..... And although I get a lot of people telling me I did the right thing.... It still hurts 😢. My only saving grace is this...... I may well have saved a life.

[@TheXergon]

wow, really, someone did a loop, the most un-risky aerobatics you can imagine, in a dedicated fun-plane, and you report this to someone higher up and destroy lifes and potentially families? must be a hard life in army, right?

[@salninethousand2496]

@@TheXergon If it was "most un-risky" then why did the authorities act as they did? Making up your own rules is how things go really bad.

[@hisnibs1121]

@kirknewton100 His wife was wrong, you know? You did not destroy 'the one thing her husband enjoyed and lived for', he did.

[@michaelking42]

Kirk, thanks for sharing your story, you absolutely did the right thing, and as you say, you may have saved his life.

[@RelyDoberman]

@thexergon He did a loop. But that wasn't the issue. He literally turned off his radio and didn't follow advised instructions. Dude was gonna get someone killed if not himself. :/

[@michelebarile6218]

I am Italian, i learned to fly in the USA a while ago. I flew single engine Cessna and piston helicopter. My instructors where professional: i never saw anything as such irresponsible behavior. I feel so sorry for the two students and ... the instructors as well. I love your videos which stress the importance of safety, rules' compliance and technical knowledge! Thank you!

[@alexmin4752]

A bit of an ooftopic: why is it so common to go to USA for a pilot school? Is it worse/more expensive in Europe?

[@MarcPagan]

As a CFI and former airline pilot, a huge thank you to Hoover - again. Fostering safety by essentially restating - "If you see something, say something" But it's difficult to spot the "something", abnormal and unsafe flying, as a new student pilot. Ex: The first time I experienced a power-off stall demo as a student ... it sure was abnormal to me, and a bit concerning, even though properly briefed during pre-flight. Perhaps that's the key - If something happens during a lesson that was not discussed during the pre-flight brief ...it ain't Kosher.

[@kiramatzu]

I haven't yet obtained my pilot's license, but studying air disaster investigations has taught me the importance of stress management, aircraft maintenance, and other vital topics. Integrating these elements, particularly aviation safety principles, into pilot training or certifications could be impactful. For pilots contemplating aerobatics, understanding stress, metal fatigue (in greater detail), and engine stall behavior under maneuvers is crucial to assess aircraft readiness. Perhaps this tragedy could serve as a catalyst for positive change in pilot training, ensuring safer skies for all

[@MarcPagan]

No more regs or rules are needed. The system works.@@kiramatzu Sure, no system's perfect, but it's excellent as it stands - if one works within the system, as it's a system of safety first. It's pilots and instructors who don't follow well established practices, rules and regs - very rare in my experience- who blow it/cause deaths and incidents for themselves, their students, pax, and even the public. Regarding spin training - It's not required until CFI Master of the obvious: Unless it's pre-briefed, a spin in an aircraft isn't good. If briefed, part of the brief needs to include - "We're using an aircraft approved spins. I'll show you the placard in the aircraft. We'll be climbing to 3500 feet and performing clearing turns before initiating the spin, and recovery."

[@JediOfTheRepublic]

"But if difficult to spot the "something", abnormal and unsafe flying, as a new student pilot." It shouldn't be though because the ACS tells us what we need to know. If an instructor is doing things outside the ACS, then they should be questioned.

[@MarcPagan]

Good points@@JediOfTheRepublic So, re-affirming per you , that it's on the student to report bad acts, and to fire bad instructors - plus, let people know about it.

[@analyticalhabitrails9857]

Man, all that's on my mind is, Man robbie what were you thinking?!?! What were you doing?!?! S.m.h (And by the way, as for the company, let them get sued in the millions and millions!!!!)

[@Fred-w9w]

A person who endangers others without regard for their wellbeing is not a nice person...he was a careless fool who got two other people killed as a result. The others who knew of the reckless behavior are complicit in the deaths for not taking any action...We as a society must return to a real standard of personal responsibility for our actions.

[@pilot-debrief]

I should also mention that when I did my research for this debrief I saw the photos of his three children that he left behind. He and I also share the same birthday and I have three kids. That made this debrief extremely difficult for me to do as I imagined his children potentially seeing this video one day.

[@heinzriemann3213]

He was a self-righteous jackass and you basically adored him.

[@gavanwhatever8196]

8.12 billion people. That means over 22 million people share your birthday. 11 million males. Probably 8 or 9 million fathers. More than enough fathers out there that didn't deny their kids a father and take out two other people at the same time. More than enough fathers out there who understand what wing loading is and respect it.

[@Buck_TKO]

Hi Hoover. I did my research I found the pictures of the two Italian students. I've send them to you on your gmail. I hope you'll be able to edit your video one day. As you said "they were real person too". 👍

[@NondescriptMammal]

It's an understandable sentiment, especially in view of the judgments that one can expect from the comments on your video. But it isn't objective, and it is probably best just to strive for objectivity and detachment, you can still be inoffensive doing that. As you've probably seen, inserting your emphasis that he "wasn't a bad guy" has probably just amplified the judgments in the comments anyway.

[@louisrobinson4164]

The instructor was dangerous and reckless! My heart breaks for his children, the students, and the families left to grieve.😢

[@larryjohnny]

And clueless! He could’ve picked an aircraft that was rated to do stunt maneuvers. I bet he thought he was so brave too! Gotta watch out for those who are too cavalier about things they can sort of do.. they don’t even know what dangerous situations they’re bad decisions create. A true master is humble! Like Sully Sullenburger!

[@peterphan227]

This is like having a driving instructor who does donuts, burn-outs and drifts in your car when he's trying to teach you to drive...and the driving school knows that he does these things. It's criminal.

[@geneard639]

In my first command we had an instructor pilot who thought he was 'all of that and a bag of chips'. The guy had an ego bigger than an aircraft carrier and the Wing Admiral hated him for numerous reasons. One night at 0100 a plane got dragged in for an Over G inspection. He had damaged the aircraft, essentially twisting the wings one way and the fuselage the opposite way so it was / for wings and \ for empennage, trying to invent an aerobatic maneuver that he could name after himself. I was the first on the aircraft after the tow truck dropped it off, and I gave up just walking up to it. It had a visible ripple fore and aft the wing... like, one wrinkle was an inch proud! the aircraft had shortened! By then a few others had walked up, and the second aircraft was being pulled in, and we got to Maintenance Control to tell them the two aircraft were trashed and destined for beer cans. We were told he was up in aircraft number 3! at 2am! Doing aerobatics! totally unauthorized, he told folks he just wanted some night hours. So one pilot destroyed 3 of our A-7E Corsair II aircraft, aircraft that can take +12G and -6G, he over stressed them twisting the airframes leaving them for beer cans. So, its not just young guns who do this, sometimes its seasoned fliers... but, I think its the overblown ego thats the main issue.

[@rtbrtb_dutchy4183]

You have a great imagination. 😂

[@FlyingDutchman5705]

Pls tell me this guy spent some time in military prison for what he has done to the poor Corsairs

[@SnoMoJoe1]

I find it frustrating when someone claims, "He wasn't a bad person, he just made bad decisions." The decisions a person makes is what makes them who they are. You really need to accept the reality that this guy was a bad person. This guy made "Bad decisions" repeatably. He apparently had no self-control, and he put himself and others at great risk. So much so that those around him knew about it and commented on it. Although it is tragic that he got himself and those two others killed, it is a good thing that he never made it to become a commercial pilot where his lack of self-control would have ended in a much worse tragedy.

[@analyticalhabitrails9857]

Don't forget the Company is also involed that "promoted" this guy in the first place. While they had real, true flight instructors that EARNED THEIR WAY TO THE TOP, but instead they opted not to choose the true instructors, but picked that guy that lead to two foreign individuals crash landed. The students trusted the Company! And so they trusted their assigned flight "instructor"!

[@InMyBrz]

AGREE, ROBBIE WAS a BAD PEERSON and a BAD PILOT HIS IGNORANCE about the structural strength of an airplane WAS DEADLY NO excuse for this kind of behavior The people who KNEW about his totally unacceptable and dangerous flying should have called him out to the owner of the flight school. Instead now we have 2 innocent dead pilots and 1 dead dangerous pilot LESSON HERE, DON'T KEEP QUIET when you see someone doing DANGEROUS things in an airplane

[@noiiiiiize]

Good people can make bad decisions. That doesn't make them bad PEOPLE. If you think being bad or good isnt nuanced, then you're not in a position to judge ANYBODY

[@mikoto7693]

The only tragedy about this crash is the two innocent students killed by this guy’s stupidity.

[@ernestgalvan9037]

@@noiiiiiize…yeah, good people can make a bad decision, but making bad decisions over and over again, in areas in which you are supposed to be informed, and choosing those bad decisions can cause the deaths of other people? Sorry, but that IS a ‘Bad Person”.

[@DrJohn493]

Over my 40+ years of flying, I flew with a few jerks like Robbie early on. It didn't take me long to stay away from pilots and instructors that did stupid stuff in unrated aircraft. Survival of the fittest and all. I had a second cousin that thought he was god's gift to helicopters, took me on my first air ride in a Bell 47 ANG helicopter in the late 60s, scared the hell out of me, and damn near ruined my passion for flying. Learned much later on from a friend of the family he damned near killed himself in a O-1 Bird Dog pilot induced crash attempting to show off for the airport fence hangers. From my first experience with my hotshot cousin's first flight, I learned early the kinds of flying fools to avoid flying with. It is really tragic that Robbie ignored the advice of his CFI girlfriend, threw professionalism out the window, and took two future pilots to their graves instead of a rewarding aviation career. Robbie being a former Marine tells me something too.

[@regularguy3665]

Makes me think of something unheard in another aviation channel. There are old pilots, there are bold pilots, there aren’t many old AND bold pilots.

[@DrewHanks2083]

What does Robbie being a Marine tell you?

[@harrisoncaldwel2293]

@@DrewHanks2083former* perhaps implying he got kicked out or something? Just a guess

[@16-BITFPV]

🤡🫵🏻

[@Francois8011]

Not only the instructor was doing ridiculous stunts, he was also also showing what not to do to new pilots. If you face someone like that at a flight school, or even later on in your career, speak up! You might save a few people’s lives.

[@steveo8991]

My dad told me that whenever you lose respect for something, you are heading towards disaster. I never forgot that.

[@donc9751]

Wow, very bad scenario. Even after she warned him about not doing any funny stuff, he still felt compelled to do those maneuvers. Ill never understand. I can see why his girlfriend had a difficult time with it all.

[@betsyj59]

One can imagine a psychoanalyst theorizing that he did the "funny stuff" precisely because his girlfriend told him not to.... subconsciously.

[@NondescriptMammal]

@@betsyj59 Or even consciously. He might have thought it would be funny, good for a laugh afterward. He might not have been clinically narcissistic, but he seems to fit the lay definition, judging from some of his reported behaviors.

[@getsmarter5412]

Sorry, his personality of being a "great guy" was a lie. What he did when alone and with students is who he really was.

[@dcxxxx]

I blame Robbie 100%. Thanks for another great upload.

[@dcxxxx]

@traybern Your numerous foster parents hate you.

[@colecoooper3424]

Your debriefs gave me the confidence to tell my 141 flight school that my cfi was unsafe and I wanted a change, thank you

[@davidkennedy3050]

You can be nice all you want, but the flight instructor committed negligent criminal homicide.

[@canoe365]

My dad was a Flying Safety Officer in the US Air Force. One of his conclusions after investigating many accidents and hearing about many more, is that there seemed to be a connection between extraordinarily skilled pilots and 'pushing the envelope', that is, doing things that are prohibited. At one point dad acted as a technical assistant for General Curtis Lemay, when Lemay was the commander of Strategic Air Command at Offutt Air Force Base in Omaha Nebraska (side note, I was born there). Whenever a Class A accident (death or more than $1M property damage) occurred anywhere in SAC, the wing commander had to report to Lemay, explain what happened, and how he was going to prevent it happening again. Dad usually waited outside of view but within hearing of the briefing, and was occasionally called in if there were any technical questions he could help with. Dad said that very frequently he heard the wing commander say "I don't understand it, he was one of our best pilots." Dad told me he would always cringe when he heard that. Lemays response was always something like "If he was your best, what do the rest of your #@&$ pilots look like?!" Dad started to form the opinion that many extremely competent or skilled pilots feel compelled to show that they are capable of doing things that most pilots can't (or won't) do. And that the average pilot knew his limitations, respected the rules, and thus followed the rules. My personal opinion is that certain personality traits influence certain people toward piloting, and when they gain competency, these traits compell them to 'push' farther. So possibly, they always wanted to prove something to themselves or to others, and sometimes get themselves killed (and others) in the process. I would be very interested in other people's opinions (especially Hoover) on these things. Hoover, as always, thank you for the outstanding work you do. You are indeed improving the flying world and saving lives.

[@johnsilverman2538]

Highly skilled +poor self esteem =disaster.

[@enginerdy]

For some reason, pilots sometimes get the false sense that they know more about the role they play in operating the machine than they really do. They feel like they’re melded with this machine, able to do amazing things.. when the reality is that this is an illusion carefully created by the designers. _Always_ there are tradeoffs made about the design and its capabilities, and these are communicated to the pilot as operating limits and procedures. Sometimes (for very old aircraft, unusual conditions) even this is not conservative enough, but you can be assured that if you’re not following the POH you’re risking the lives of everyone on board.

[@kennethsouthard6042]

In this case, I think it goes deeper than that. Had he been in the airplane alone, I would agree with you. But given that he did this with low time students, it is a whole other situation.

[@PsRohrbaugh]

I agree. Specifically, I think cars have given people a false sense of security. Yeah you may blow an engine, but it's extremely hard to drive a modern car in such a way where it literally falls apart on you (unless you hit something, of course). People don't really understand that aircraft are not the same. You do dumb shit, the plane might just snap in half on you.

[@tma-1704]

@@PsRohrbaugh OR, someone else because it was damaged...

[@kcindc5539]

Hey Hoover! Your editing, pacing, and natural pauses in this video are PERFECT! A real pleasure to listen/watch.

[@jacobsmithjr]

It's always refreshing to hear an actual person talking instead of the annoying voice of chat GPT.

[@pilot-debrief]

Thank you so much for this comment!

[@kcindc5539]

@@pilot-debrief you’re welcome!

[@994pt4]

Those poor innocent students! Anyone flying like that is a HORRIBLE pilot and I'd hesitate to call him a 'good guy' when he has NO RESPECT for the lives of others!

[@Dan-gg8fk]

My primary flight instructor (Vietnam era military pilot) started with the hard stuff first. I was not allowed to take off on pavement until my first supervised solo. Every turf takeoff was a short field takeoff. My flights with him were all practicing what ifs' and emergencies while learning the basics. This training a few years later saved my life during a panel fire on takeoff at night in a brand new PA-28. I'm now an old pilot not a bold pilot. Great video.

[@robertd7073]

Reminds me of my IFR CFI....45 degree turns no Dg, power off scenarios while under the hood, ect ect

[@topwaterfrogger8428]

As soon as you said former Marine, I knew exactly why this accident happened. Mr. (I'm a Marine) let his cocky, I can do anything attitude paired with unmerited arrogance not only cost him his life but the lives of two others. Pathetic

[@Magikarp-4ever]

Oh thank God I'm not the only one that heard the word Marine and low level and was like yeah I know exactly how this is gonna end and likely the rules he broke, my guesses was abusing equipment or abusing someone else 😂 seems to be all they are good at, but I also find that people are like that before they join just as much as they are afterwards 😂

[@NondescriptMammal]

Certain professions tend to attract a certain personality type.

[@16-BITFPV]

Cry harder

[@topwaterfrogger8428]

@@16-BITFPV your mom did

[@ducksoff7236]

@@topwaterfrogger8428 You sound like you road rage a lot. You are no better then that pilot.

[@325im20]

I very much appreciate the nuanced analysis. If more people acknowledged, that there is a wide spectrum in between 'right' and 'wrong', the world would be a better place.

[@pibbles-a-plenty1105]

You sound like an apologist for those that try to escape responsibility for what they say. Do you have anyone in mind?

[@325im20]

I did not have anybody particular in mind and I do not advocate for people being able to avoid responsibility for what they say. In fact, I believe there should be more accountability, which would lead to more thought being put into what people say. To me, it sounds like you are projecting something onto me, which is not accurate.@@pibbles-a-plenty1105

[@charlesfaure1189]

There is a spectrum between right and wrong--and this was far into the 'wrong' side of that spectrum. Tell me, do you think reckless risking of other peoples' lives is in any way in a gray area?

[@tbird81]

Problem is that most of his audience are Asperger's men in their early twenties, who don't understand nuance and lack the ability to view things from other perspectives.

[@jahnkaplank8626]

Instructors should be taught what it means to be a professional, and that should cover everything.

[@SpcT0rres]

This is shifting the blame. "The System" didn't cause the instructor to do barrel rows or other crazy maneuvers.

[@justayoutuber1906]

But the "system" didn't catch it or stop it either.

[@pilot-debrief]

I was trying to drive home the point that we all play a role in a mishap when we know the person at fault is doing things they shouldn’t do and we don’t do enough to stop them.

[@twistedmr]

his level of false confidence in the structural ability of the common trainer aircraft is absolutely jaw dropping, it amazes me how such a basic fact of knowlege was sidelined blows my mind.

[@ThomasTroesch-c4t]

A grocery clerk notices her customer has Yen, Deutsche Mark, Franks, etc. in his wallet. After asking about it, the pilot tells her he regularly flies as captain on international flights. She said, "Wow, that must be very exciting". His response - "Not when you do it right." Spot on.

[@madelinescafe8573]

As a flight instructor who always follows the policies and rules, as well as puts the student's training and welfare first; this INFURIATES me! This happened because of the selfish actions of the flight instructor. Completely avoidable!

[@speedbird7976]

ALWAYS???

[@theoldar]

The students are totally blameless here. I think perhaps you went too far to defend a truly dangerous instructor. He was going to kill people sooner or later, himself at the very least.

[@pilot-debrief]

I’m sorry if you felt that I blamed the students. That was not my intention. The point I was trying to make is that ANY STUDENT shouldn’t be afraid to question something they don’t think is right. I was frustrated that no one ever sat Robbie down before he even became a CFI to mentor him and put him on the right path.

[@blatherskite9601]

Always assumes that the students knew what was right and not right better than the instructor.

[@adrienroy9310]

​@pilot-debrief let me preface this by saying, I'm not insulting you, you're an intelligent thoughtful person taking the high road, I get that. But this guys wasn't a 5 yr old that needed to be sat down, he was a grown man given the ultimate responsibility of keeping students safe and teaching them how to be safe pilots. He made a choice to gamble with their lives for his own wreckless enjoyment and lost. Maybe I'm different, but if he tried that with me even the first time I would have been inconsoleable and would have never heard the end of it. I'm surprised everyone let him get away with it this long, especially the people around him with more age and experience. I'm sure there's a part of you that thinks this, but can't express it. I'm very sorry for his children and those two basically kids in the back seat that unfortunately trusted him and missed out on their lives.

[@enginerdy]

I let an instructor make a particularly bad weather call one time. That was the last time I don’t listen to myself about a safety issue with someone who’s supposed to know more than me. I guess you have to learn that for yourself that sometimes you have to be the stick in the mud or buck authority to make sure you operate safely.

[@davidbarlow431]

​@@pilot-debriefyou didn't sound like you were blaming the students. And you are quite right that even as a student you can pick up on something not feeling right. Also, it can be very difficult to speak up. A student doesn't need to complain, a polite question or comment can be sufficient. Any instructor worth his salt will answer a question, and it doesn't have to be your instructor. If someone had said in the office post flight, with maybe the owner present, "the flick rolls where a bit scary", or "what was that manouver called when we ended up inverted? "then maybe this guy could have been stopped.

[@FilosophicalPharmer]

Hi Hoover! Greatly enjoy your vids. When I was a student pilot flying out of Raleigh East, Knightdale, had an instructor who demonstrated his skills by flying under a power line while touching the main gear on the small lake the power line was stretched across. That was my last flight with him.

[@FlyMIfYouGotM]

WOW!!! There's questionable. There's stupid. Then there's industrial strength stupid! That stunt was well past the industrial strength stupid limit. This is right up there with a military helicopter pilot at Ft. Campbell Ky. who damaged the main roters by flying through the trees at night. That, "Oh ye of little faith" guy, also had a reputation for doing stupid stuff to "impress" student pilots.

[@FilosophicalPharmer]

@@FlyMIfYouGotM Just remembered another moment with this same instructor. On the last leg of my CFI-accompanied long cross-country, he trimmed out the 152 we were in to gain altitude the entire flight. By the time we arrived, we were just under 8,000’. I knew we were getting close and wondered when we were going to lose altitude. He looked over at me with a big smile and exclaimed, “Spin training time…” 😜 I’m still convinced he was trying to make me sick.

[@robstanton9215]

Great report Hoover! It’s sad when someone knowingly puts themselves and others at risk. If he was so eager to do aerobatics, he should’ve been doing them in an aerobatic certified aircraft with an aerobatic certified instructor not assuming his current abilities would supersede the aircraft’s abilities he happened to be flying and somehow that airplane would last far beyond it’s structural certification. That Piper was older on top of him pushing it. Very sad!

[@pilot-debrief]

Thank you!

[@patmcgrath1591]

In this flight, he had two pax. The plane likely was close to its certified gross weight.

[@charlesfaure1189]

Sad...and an outrage.

[@comfortablynumb4491]

This joker should never have been a flight instructor. He was a show off, plain and simple.

[@philrutherford6486]

I was in the US Army helicopter school in 1964 and had graduated. Another graduate from the fixed-wing school offered to take me up in a Bird Dog, I'd never been up in a small fixed-wing aircraft so, I accepted. The aircraft was the instrument training model and had a set of instruments on a hinged door-like panel that could swing closed in front of the backseat student. It was in the open and locked position when we departed, so I could see out the front of the aircraft. He did not brief me on any flight maneuvers he wanted to show me prior to the flight, and at that time, I knew little or nothing about fixed-wing flight maneuvers. We climbed to about 5000. After flying around a few minutes, he said "want to see something?", not knowing anything, I said sure. He then pulled the nose up and entered a spin. The forces on the plane caused the instrument panel to unlock and slam shut in the closed position in front of me, and suddenly I couldn't see anything except a little out of the side of the aircraft. Needless to say, I almost peed my pants, this one event set my attitude about fixed-wing aircraft to this day. I went on to fly in Vietnam and as a commercial helicopter pilot for many years. Since then, I have owned several fixed-wing aircraft and do so today, but I've never been able to feel fully comfortable doing even simple power-off and power-on stalls, and certainly not aerobatics. If my introduction to fixed-wing aircraft had been with a competent and aware instructor instead of this cowboy, my many years of flying fixed-wing flying wouldn't have included the level of anxiety that it has.

[@justanotherguyreally7529]

You are amazing at what you do. Your calm nature, your work ethic to dig into these stories, no matter how hard of a read they are. You are one of the few aviation content creators that truly serve the community and I hope you are doing well with channel financially bc you deserve the recognition for the time you serve for all pilots around. Thank you so much. You alone have taught me a lot.

[@pilot-debrief]

Thank you very much for your kind words. It’s comments like this that inspire me to keep making new videos.

[@sarahalbers5555]

I totally agree. Hoover is a rock star, and, he checks his ego at the door!

[@timothy4772]

Having watched the whole video it's obvious Robbie had disciplinary problems in each job.

[@bushpilot469]

Yes. And I don’t appreciate the sugar coating the author is using. This guy was an idiot and he got two people killed. He put everyone at the school in danger by abusing the aircraft.

[@odnamsrazor2364]

@@bushpilot469 exactly so. had he overstressed the aircraft BUT not to such an extent that it broke up on him it's quite likely that it would have broken up later, on somebody who actually was behaving themselves. . then he'd be responsible for killing people ( aside from his two students ) who would never have even had a chance to know that there was anything wrong.

[@pilot-debrief]

I’m not sure how you were able to determine the that he had disciplinary issues in his other jobs based on this video. I was just very frustrated researching this knowing that he was allowed to continue to become a CFI. I had to balance that frustration with knowing is children might watch this.

[@timothy4772]

@@pilot-debrief I just look at the evidence. He had a long list of jobs and he was only 29 years old. Judging by his behavior as a CFI I would assume his superiors were not tolerant of his undisciplined behavior. This is pure conjecture on my part. Maybe he bores easily and quits to find more challenging jobs. I'm just glad he is no longer a fireman because he seems to be a ticking time bomb who would put others in danger.

[@blimpcommander1337]

Maybe the FAA should develop a “If You See Something, Say Something”mandatory poster for flight schools with an anonymous tip hotline. Maybe this would bring awareness for other flight instructors and students. It might have helped in this situation and the one out of Owensboro, Kentucky.

[@jahnkaplank8626]

That falls under being a 'professional'. This guy was just not professional.

[@NASkeywest]

Students should be told explicitly that if the instructor does or says ANYTHING that doesn’t seem right, even a bad attitude, they should report them immediately.

[@Well_Edumacated]

as someone who is considering getting my privates license your videos are ENLIGHTENING. There are some shady people operating aircraft.

[@jahnkaplank8626]

when the school assigns you one instructor, ask to fly a lesson with them all, and then YOU pick one you like.

[@keithkornatoski9162]

Thank You as always ... what is particularly scary for me is once those student pilots stepped onboard the Piper they had no-say and their fate was sealed from the git-go. Not sure why the CFI would be "Showing off" but seemed compelled to do it and unfortunately ran out of "GET OF OUT JAIL FREE" cards at the wrong time. Back in high school had a friend who drove cars the same way...I made plenty of excuses to never ride with him... Keith Chicago IL

[@MarcosElMalo2]

I don’t believe it is true that they had no say once they were aboard the plane. You could say that they were at a disadvantage or that they were afraid to say anything, but they could have told Robbie to stop and land them asap at their destination. They weren’t powerless, even if they didn’t understand their power. Personally, I’d rather be labeled as a “problem” than be labeled as “deceased”.

[@bobbys2160]

as a retired airline pilot with 40 years in the business and 30k hours there are a few who coin the term" hey watch this" these are reds flags that the airline teach new hires to watch out for. unfortunately other lives were cut short.

[@triggerpointtechnology]

I was a professional flight instructor for 2 years, logging 2,000 hours of dual given, mostly primary students. I used almost exclusively Cessna 150s, which are approved for spins. I was unusual as an instructor because I would demonstrate the worst case situation I could think of. That would be a turn from base to final, flaps full (40 degrees) and letting the airspeed decay, a steeper than normal turn (45 degrees) and unconsciously leaning on the rudder to “help” the turn. The 150 did a magnificent “snap” stall (no, not a snap roll) where you suddenly were looking at a spin very close to the ground. Now, clearly the demo was at altitude, above 5,000’ agl, and the demo was conducted with a carefully explained set up, trying to show the student that this was in no way a situation that was extreme. It was a situation that any pilot could find him/herself in if several critical factors were allowed to deteriorate without recognition. There are people who will object to this level of realism, thinking that classroom study is sufficient. I disagree. The moment that little Cessna stalls and rolls hard left, and within 1 turn you are staring at the ground, spinning, I ask “now how would you like to see this, at 500 feet?” They never, ever, forgot about airspeed control, rudder control, and bank induced load factor all adding up to an unsurvivable situation.

[@tomstulc9143]

If what you are getting at is students need to get plenty of stall and spun recovery practice I agree. It should be to something reflective an committed to muscle memory.

[@MaxSterling01]

You were demonstrating and teaching what could happen. Robbie was not. A stall spin is something pilots should experience. The CFI I had for my PPL Checkride was a rare breed of teacher. Though not required, he to also demonstrated a spin in a spin rated aircraft. He stopped the checkride after asking me the recovery procedure and then asked if I had ever been in a spin. I said no, where he offered to show me a spin I i wanted to. After that it was back to the checkride, which I passed. Yes he was there for the hours, but he also did his job in a safe manner.

[@triggerpointtechnology]

@@tomstulc9143 Unfortunately you seldom find any flight school that will demo this maneuver. Perceived liability I guess, completely misunderstanding the fact that if a student has never seen a spin, he/she will not recognize the cascading mistakes that lead to them.

[@triggerpointtechnology]

@@MaxSterling01 And your situation is the norm. Never seen a spin, therefore never taught recovery. Abysmal training standards.

[@tomstulc9143]

@@triggerpointtechnology last year I visited with a fellow who was about ,,10 hours into his working on his flight instruction. He buddied up with a local acrobatics pilot who had a two seater acrobatic aircraft. He ponied up the extra money for three hours of acrobatic joy riding. Good thinking on his part. Where there is a will,!

[@momchilandonov]

It's really shitty that he did unauthorized stunts while having 3 children :(...

[@passageone8339]

You are very empathetic and compassionate for all the victims and I appreciate that. And also I personally recoil when I hear blame shifted in any way to the “system” - this creates a victim mindset, this is what is wrong with the US culture: prevarication of individuals bad acts to concepts(e.g. systems, oppression, , …) . Pilots, as individuals, should be held to the highest standards in ability, judgement and in character. This behavior, tragically, is against public policy and creates risk to the public at large. This individual abused and fatigued the airframes of the aircraft he used beyond spec. leaving subsequent fliers at mortal risk. Systems don’t perpetrate *patterns* of bad individual behavior. Love the channel, thank you for your service and great work.

[@chuckthebrindlepittie6820]

Onboard the plane were flight instructor Robert William Davey, 29, and students Luca Visani and Andrea Venturini. The latter were from Cesena and Mantova, Italy, respectively.

[@Starfish2145]

How can somebody that such a new pilot become a CFI! That’s insane

[@NondescriptMammal]

It has become fairly routine these days. I agree, it seems literally insane that this has become normal in a field such as aviation.

[@jahnkaplank8626]

I wonder if the FAA ever asked him to explain what any of those numbers/graphs in the Flight Manual meant...

[@vanadium8748]

Most foreign students don't speak out or question their instructor's actions. This is due to cultural differences and questioning an instructor where I'm from was seen as a sign of being disrespectful.

[@Gadget0343]

This kind of uncheked behavior cost the USAF a C-5 and several seriously injured crew members. Another issue is overstressing the airplane. It might not come apart when you do it, but they poor guy flying it 6 months later may have the problem you caused.

[@jahnkaplank8626]

A B52 bomber plus crew, also, remember?

[@Renoroadkill]

A great analysis of this accident, it reminded me of my favorite flight instructor back in the late 80s or early 90s. He was the nicest guy you would ever meet and everyone loved him. He was known for doing things a little outside the norm every once in a while. A few years later, after I graduated college and was in the process of obtaining my A&P, I get a call from my best friend from college that this guy had been killed in a helicopter accident. He was a great guy and an amazing pilot, but eventually fate can catch up with even the most talented pilots. When I was flying in Alaska, there was a saying up there: “there are old pilots and there are bold pilots, however up here, there are no old, bold pilots.”

[@jacquesparadis6756]

Hi Hoover. Thanks for your great debriefs. As a CFI with 26 years of experience, I can tell you from the get go that some pilots are simply not cut for this, your last debrief says it all. It’s the imposteur syndrome - Create a false front image of oneself that cloaks the persons real trait. Avid listener. Jack

[@jimmydulin928]

Good analysis and good lesson. Most of us have been in a similar position as the girlfriend CFI. Mine was a boss and good friend. Worse, a near fatal loader accident loading a running Pawnee caused him to have to rehire me later as safety officer. When the boss is too powerful to take safety suggestions, you just have to walk away from the job and report the problem to the FAA. Loading running was not the issue. Treating loaders, especially his family, poorly was the problem. Also he was taking farmers under wires in a C-180 that had no wire cutters and cable from cabin to top of the vertical stabilizer and there was no need for non Ag students doing Ag training. Yes, we have to learn to go under wires. No we don't need to take passengers. Anyway, as you point out, these things need everyone's attention: student, CFI, loader, boss, and finally FAA.

[@pilot-debrief]

Thanks for sharing and I’m sorry you had that experience.

[@williamhammond3998]

I really appreciate that you take the time debrief these situations. I honestly believe you're making the aviation world a safer place. I watch these to learn from the mistakes of others. That way I can remain as safe as possible out there.

[@justayoutuber1906]

As a non-pilot, if I were to take lessons and my instructor were doing maneuvers like that, I would be very concerned and would want to switch instructors immediately.

[@jahnkaplank8626]

many students don't know any better, and won't question anything.

[@Ms_Princess_Zelda]

I went to Dallas FSDO for behavior similar to this (different school/different circumstances) but let me tell you they waived me off and said there is no way that stuff was happening, until I showed up unannounced with a witness and a list and printed emails/texts. They showed up at 7a the next morning and grounded all aircraft. The school shut down 2 weeks later. I stopped flying after. When aircraft structural limitations are exceeded you are now going into uncharted territory with invisible damage to components. I nearly died at the hands of a student and in my book i experienced 2 times my life was at risk and I decided I was not going to continue. Sad part is I love flying and the freedom of it, but it isn’t worth dying over IMHO

[@jahnkaplank8626]

Doing even ONE aerobatic maneuver, or anything outside the approved flight envelope, will make it lose airworthiness until it's been inspected first, and this CFI did MANY such things. Those planes would NOT be airworthy if people spoke up. I just wonder if any instructor there had any idea about structural limitations, and that those graphs and numbers in the Flight Manuals meant anything...

[@user-gl9iz1bp1r]

“Nothing is as inevitable as a mistake whose time have come.” ~ Tussman’s Law. Not holding people accountable is always a mistake.

[@q.e.d.9748]

When I was working as a CFI I always taught my private students how to recover from a spin. The idea that they may do a power on stall while soloing and unintentionally enter a spin and not know how to recover terrified me. Preparedness is the name of the game in aviation.

[@michaelteter]

Of course spin recovery is important to know (and ideally to get to practice too). But showing off to a student by creating a spin without warning is not appropriate; neither are aerobatic maneuvers - especially in an aircraft not built for it!

[@ishady27]

Thank you for the video. Great explanation about the instructor, the students and the airplane limit. As an ultralight pilot, this and others videos will embedded in my brain for my own safety. 🙏🎉

[@canoe365]

Another ultralight pilot here. Hoovers videos are very well thought out, very thorough, very informative and an excellent warning to, like he says, "prevent this from happening to someone else".

[@teijaflink2226]

I would be so mad if my instructor did things without warning just to show off.

[@ishady27]

@@canoe365 what plane you fly?

[@dinosoarmotorsports]

I just cannot believe any pilot did these maneuvers with passengers onboard. I just cannot believe it, but it happened, and two people were killed over it and I find this so, so very upsetting. The actions of Robbie were knowingly and willfully reckless that resulted in fatalities. I just don' t have the words. As always, thank you for the debrief!

[@mulsanneblue7708]

Robbie sounded like a cocky jerk. I've known quite a few pilots like that. Sad for those students. He had no business doing that.

[@Ozbird-72]

When I was a young helicopter CFI, aged 21, I also had a tendency to show off my "skills" to compensate for my young age. I also did a lot of "funny" stuff with my students and fortunately, we all survived and learned. Flight school operators really need to keep an eye on what is going on in their operations to prevent such accidents...

[@mangos2888]

How were you at 29?

[@57Jimmy]

Ah yes, I remember being 21, world by the balls, invincible, pushing the envelope…..now 66 and wonder just how the hell I survived! And I wasn’t flying airplanes either!😉👴🏻

[@Ozbird-72]

@@mangos2888 I had a great flight school owner who led me out of this behaviour. I stopped doing "funny" things with students. This is why I am still here...:-) At 52...

[@Ozbird-72]

@@57Jimmy Same here...

[@mikefendel]

Hoover my respect for you continues to grow. What an outstanding analysis of the event, detailing all sides of the story. Your honest and heart felt description shows your concerns not only for the the 2 students, but also for the system that allows for "Robbie" to obtain certifications well beyond he aviation maturity. Expereience level. I am sure all the comments made about his reputation as a man might have made him an outstanding pilot had he had the time to mature as a responsible pilot. Keep these types of debriefs coming as you are providing excellent guidance to all inexperienced aviators on the importance of how time in the airplane can add maturity to judgment. One of the most valuable assets a pilot can have.

[@pilot-debrief]

Thank you very much. I read a message board where people that knew Robbie posted messages after the crash…many of them were shocked and said he was such a great guy. Most of them likely had no idea he was doing some of these things.

[@buckwheat1070]

I started flight training in Georgia with a calm mature CFI with many years of experience. Unfortunately I had to move to Maine, but because of my experience with my Georgia CFI, I was enthusiastic and raring to go when I got to a new flight Academy. This time I have a young kid similar to this dead CFI, who they called the megalomaniac. He was so overwhelmingly manic, and out of touch with how to instruct, it left me immediately frustrated, and I didn’t want to fly anymore. I tried one more hour with him that was enough. It took me a few years to get back in the cockpit, and I had another mature young CFI. I completed my flight training easily and I credited him and my first instructor with being the reason I was able to accomplish my SEL. I so understand what these two deceased students are talking about. There are one too many of CFIs like this out there.

[@lonnmoore5568]

All I can think about while watching these videos is that I didn’t realize how knowledgeable Steve O is about aircraft

[@GilbMLRS]

I saw the face of that guy and immediately knew what was about to happen. And yes, he was a bad person, doing aerobatics with people not prepared for it (in planes not certified for it etc.) is the most douchebaggy a person could possibly get. Never would I tolerate such a lack of professionalism and disregard for safety and comfort.

[@nevek3647]

I know the point of the video is not about disparaging someone. We are here to learn from the mistakes others have made especially if the mistakes have deadly consequences. But does the fact he’s a “nice guy”, or a “loving family man”, has anything to do with his behaviors as a CFI? I almost think that prefacing his actions by also emphasizing he’s a nice guy is exactly how we got here. If I were the family of the deceased students, I would hold everyone in that flight school’s chain of command responsible. The five hazardous attitudes are invincibility, anti-authority, machoism, impulsivity, and resignation. His behaviors, at least from those willing to share, exhibited at least the first three. If someone close to me has to remind me to not do anything stupid in the car when I drive someone else, then it means I am exhibiting dangerous behaviors. In this case, the girlfriend is also a CFI so she’s not expressing uneducated concerns.

[@pilot-debrief]

Some of my comments were made knowing that his children might watch this someday.

[@nevek3647]

@@pilot-debrief I know why you did it, I respect that. I didn’t necessarily meant what I said toward you and this video. You give an excellent perspective and your videos are excellent. Keep it up so we can all learn. His behaviors unfortunately were developed over a short lifetime. No one held him accountable in a more serious manner prior to this tragedy. We see this not just in aviation but other professions. There’s so much lesson here that is applicable in our daily lives. Thank you for what you do.

[@davidp2888]

Tragic results because of stupid decisions.

[@auster120]

When I took my PP training, my instructor instilled in me a fear of flying that I did not had before. The guy was scared of flying, ot at least, it seemed that way. When it was not the dangers of windshear, it was engine failure on take off. I did not understand why he was like this, he had been fighter pilot during the Spanish Civil War 40 years before. May be he was still alive due to this fear... anyway, as soon as I got my PP license, I started "Proficiency courses" with a different instructor. After two hours of "proficiency training", with stalls, spins, surprise engine cutoffs I started to ponder what was better, if an instructor scared of flying or a bush pilot. I should say that I learnt quite more in 5 hours proficiency training that on the 25 previous hours. For instance, after one hour of learning how to detect a stall and recover from a spin on 152 Aerobat, on the final landing, I was flying above the threshold of the runway, a little high, 45 ft may be, by my first instructor procedure ("you must be aware of windshear on final"), when my proficiency instructor cutoff the mixture. Engine stopped, instinctively, I pulled, instructor of course pushed, while saying: "I land the plane, you just killed both of us". Never forgot this lesson.

[@thatdoctorwhofan1166]

Perfect example of the saying "There are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, never both."

[@douglaswhitcomb9729]

Very sad story here. Exceeding aircraft limitations, as well as, personnel ability, usually doesn’t end well. There was no mention if the instructor had ever received any formal aerobatic instruction. My assumption is probably not. Another factor was that he was getting away with this over time and was becoming more and more emboldened. For student pilots. If something doesn’t feel or look correct, say something!! Ask questions! More and more flight schools have, or should have, a Safety Management System (SMS). Make sure you understand and use it.

[@flower2289]

Doing aerobatics in a non certified a/c is bad enough. Doing it with 3 grown men on board is psychotic. The instructor did not have the right mindset to be an instructor or an airline pilot.

[@pi.actual]

I think it has been a proven statistic for as long as I can remember that the most dangerous time in a pilot's progression is the period between 200 to 600 hours when increased confidence is accompanied by a near euphoric absence of fear.

[@PRH123]

Statistically the same thing for motorcycles, 300-500 hours is the most dangerous statistically. The rider has gained skill and lost fear, but doesn’t yet know where the limits are or have the wisdom to not go there. The demographic of most of the operators being young men contributes to the phenomenon.

[@RadAshkenazi613plusSonofMan]

My dad flew with the Navy for 21 years. In that time he was a test pilot, Blue Angel, catapult arrest officer, Operations Commander at Miramar NAS, and the Commander of the Black Knights squadron. After he retired he sold the Grumman 112A Commander (high performance four seater). He taught me how to fly. The only thing he ever did with that airplane was nose up and then level off to create the effect of zero gravity. He would pull out his handkerchief and let it float. Pilots have a huge responsibility to their passengers.

[@jahnkaplank8626]

Private Pilot: don't kill yourself. Commercial Pilot: don't kill your passengers either.

[@bretagnemaison5455]

Great video Hoover. Many of us grew up idolising Pete "Maverick" Mitchell of Top Gun fame. I remember, (to my, now grown-up, embarrassment), calling out on the VHF "let's see what you got now, Jester.." in joyful exuberance, to my other student buddies, during one of my pre-certificate night pattern solos. (I'm pleased to say that I didn't do any silly flying, only the silly radio call, thank goodness)! Your video is an excellent, and SOBERING, warning to would-be Mavericks. Thank you, and keep up the good work. Mark

[@MoivinSulunker]

The fact of being a person does not imply that the life of that person is valuable. In many cases the death is more valuable, saving others from more suffering at that person's hands, or at the hands of some bigger grouping to whom he lends some power through his endorsement, participation, cash, good wishes toward that bad grouping, etc..

[@michaell8722]

Being rouge on your own is one thing, endangering the lives of others is downright careless and irresponsible

[@sludge8506]

Being rogue on your own is still being careless and irresponsible. He’s putting stress on the plane that it wasn’t built for. The next pilot might pay the price.

[@analyticalhabitrails9857]

Reckless. S.m.h

[@jimdecker1777]

I'll add my .25 cents here and say that Hoover's channel is the only one on KZbin that I continually check to see if there's a new review. Top notch learning from him, every time. Thank you so much! And, I lucked out learning to fly in Des Moines in the early 80's with a GREAT CFI, who was in his mid 40's and a police officer. He just loved flying so he taught other people how. No BS ever, just solid, disciplined teacher. Don't know what he's doing these days, probably retired. Doug Woods, West Des Moines PD. 👍

[@jp4163]

Forget he was a "nice guy". Tell that to the students parents. The instructor was a plain and simple idiot.

[@glennthompson7525]

Good video with an important message, especially in these times where moving pilots up to the airlines is happening a lot. Thanks for stepping up and finding this story and publishing this video.

[@GeorgeSemel]

A good 24 years before I retired, I was hired by an Airline in Las Vegas that took people out to the Grand Canyon. I was one of three older Pilots. I was almost 50 then and have been flying professionally for 30 years. Going through training, I started to notice some things. We were talking around, and we got to the director of the maintain office. I was a high time Multi pilot, and he said great, you going to fly our 402 B's I looked at him and said god I hope not. He then went on that since we were an older crowd, he figured we would not be doing acrobatics in the airplanes, Cessna 206s and 207 I started to get a twitch in my eye, and he said what was my problem, I said oh nothing did you tear down the aircraft in question and X-ray for cracks and replace all the control parts and surfaces? He said no; I said you know that the airplanes in question don't have an airworthy certificate now because the aircraft is not certified for aerobatics? He didn't like that at all, walking back to class one of the guy said to me gee's you don't pull any punches do you. I said my life is worth more than the paycheck here; I quit after returning to class. I retired in 2021. I bring this up because I don't believe that the fight school owner didn't know what was going on. The girlfriend never said a word. Okay, fine. My guess is her career stalled if she ever had one to begin with. That guy was flying way too much. I bet his pre and post-flight instruction was crap too. Pre- and Post-instruction are very important, especially for those students with poor English skills. I've seen this kind of crap and other stuff too. The worst was a flight instructor who was having sexual relations with his female students. There is a lot of garbage flight schools around these days. Most of these problems are with schools that, for the most part, are pilot mills. I used to fly a 1973 Piper Arrow. It's a good little airplane with no acrobatics or spins, and you don't do spins in airplanes approved for spins with a pax in the back. I hate schools like ATP that take guys from zero to CFII in 90 days. It took me nearly two years to go from zero to CFI, and CFII multi-instructor came later.

[@akrogirl32]

I was very fortunate in that my CFI was also my boss, and someone who had a PhD in materials science. My ground school was almost at ATP level because I was also a scientist, and my boss knew he could push the technical knowledge side of things. My boss instructed for the love of flying, and my DE told me that he enjoyed getting his students because he knew they would be well prepared. One of my bosses students switched to one of the big flight mills for logistical reasons, and he was horrified by the difference in the training. Their instructors were almost afraid of the planes. I am very grateful for the excellent training I received, that also got me into aerobatics. I highly recommend all pilots to get some basic spin training from one of experienced aerobatics instructors out there.

[@GeorgeSemel]

Yep a man running a tight ship.I did all my training back in the day when you had to study and study hard to pass the written. This was before the Freedom of Information Act, where you can get the test questions now and cram for a weekend and pass the exams .It was a lot of hard work; the school I went to in TX at Meacham Field Fort Worth was run by retired USAF Colonels. The had Cessna 150's and you was taught spin recognition and recovery. I started out in Piper's and the then new Warrior.I had a hard time for a good while. No solo spins. I was out doing some practice for the commercial and I dit a take of and departure stall that went side ways, I recovered from the spin, and went back, landed and called it a day.The Chief Instructor saw it and well we had chat and a good laugh, I only put a .6 on the airplane. Yeah to got good training and even more from others that I worked with, passed a good bit on myself. @@akrogirl32